Fasting & the Concept of Worship

[PouringRain]

I will give you the background of the conversation on the forum in another thread, that has led to the creation of this thread, and then I will ask the question. :)

Background:

I was in a discussion earlier today with scorpian on fasting. He said:

I don`t worship jesus,i meant it in the like christian sense,cause like they don`t fast or nowt.

So I challenged him on his statement and he replied with a link to a video. I replied back to him, but my reply was deleted for being off-topic.... I am not complaining and I totally respect his decision :) .... so I PMed Scorpian with my comments:

I replied to you in your thread, but I don't know if you saw it, because it was deleted as being "off topic".

What I basically said is that in the video you linked to, he is talking about fasting in rituals, such as ramadan. Christians are not required to fast in the ritualistic sense, but Christians do fast all the time and for various reasons. Many Christian chruches no longer follow any rituals, but there are some that still do.

I will probably open a thread in comparative religion on fasting, so that it will not be off topic.

All the best. :)

So then scorpian responded and said that he meant in the sense like God telling them to fast, and he mentioned lent and how it is different.



So, that is the discussion that led to this thread. I am interested in people compare/ contrasting the similarities and differences of fasting in Christianity and Islam, feel free to also include Judaism if anyone would like. Also, feel free to use verses from the qur'an, bible, hadiths, etc. to support how and why individuals fast in each religion.


(The admin who deleted my post had a great suggestion that I search comparative religion section for a thread on fasting already, and so I did, but I was unable to find one.)

[Muhammad]

Greetings PouringRain,

Thanks for being understanding.

I think that although Christians do fast, their fasting is very different to Muslims. In lent for example, they only give up certain foods which they want to have more control over, like chocolate or cake. In fact, I don't think any religion prescribes fasting in the same way as Islam does. In Hinduism, I believe they are allowed to drink water and eat fruit as part of their fast. Not only this, but I'm not sure whether fasting is a specific command in any other religion than Islam.

Peace.

[glo]

I agree that fasting in Islam is different, because it is very clearly prescribed and it one of the five pillars.
Its strength is the unity with which all Muslims fast - especially during Ramadan. That must be a great unifying experience for all Muslims! :statisfie

Fasting is Christianity is much more varied and less prescriptive. That might seem confusing or unclear to non-Muslims - and in some ways perhaps it is.
Different Christians fast differently - depending on the traditions they follow. Some abstain from certain food or drink during specific times, such as Lent or Advent. Others abstain from certain food or drink on certain days of the week. Others set aside times of complete fasting (from food and/or drink) when they feel prompted by God to do so.
Confusing as that might seem to outsiders, I think it has one great strength: when I (and other Christians I know) fast, we don't do so because it is prescribed or because we feel we must fast to conform to others - but we do so because we desire to do so and because we want to make a sacrifice and spiritual offering to God. (Of course I cannot speak for all Christians, but only for those I see around me)
I usually fast without telling anybody else, and I do it quietly and alone (which is probably why I so admire the unified fasting of all Muslims during Ramadan)

Both ways have strength and weaknesses. I trust that God sees the effort and desire in both Muslims and Christians, when they fast for his sake. :statisfie

[Insaanah]

Confusing as that might seem to outsiders, I think it has one great strength: when I (and other Christians I know) fast, we don't do so because it is prescribed or because we feel we must fast to conform to others - but we do so because we desire to do so and because we want to make a sacrifice and spiritual offering to God. (Of course I cannot speak for all Christians, but only for those I see around me)
I usually fast without telling anybody else, and I do it quietly and alone (which is probably why I so admire the unified fasting of all Muslims during Ramadan)

Both ways have strength and weaknesses. I trust that God sees the effort and desire in both Muslims and Christians, when they fast for his sake.

Ramadan is the compulsory and well-known period of fasting that everybody knows about, however there are many optional recommended fasts on certain days, eg the six days after Eid al Fitr, Mondays and Thursdays every week, 13th-15th of every lunar month, the day of Arafah, (the day before Eid al Adha), the day Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) was saved etc.

On top of this, we fast on other days of our choosing if we want to, feel the need to, or simply wish to for Allah's sake, and many people do. These fasts are invariably kept quiet, the knowledge of it being between you and Allah alone.

So we get the best of both compulsory and optional, public and private, together and alone, as well as following in the footsteps of the earlier prophets (peace be upon them).

Peace

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[glo]

On top of this, we fast on other days of our choosing if we want to, feel the need to, or simply wish to for Allah's sake, and many people do. These fasts are invariably kept quiet, the knowledge of it being between you and Allah alone.

So we get the best of both compulsory and optional, public and private, together and alone, as well as following in the footsteps of the earlier prophets (peace be upon them).

Peace

Greetings, Insane Insaan

I did not mean to say that Muslims don't fast for the simply joy of doing it for God.

I guess what I meant was that when there is no obligation put on people at all to fast, and then they do it, it's perhaps a sure sign that they are doing it willingly and with the right heart.
That's not to say that people for whom fasting is obligatory don't do it with the right heart too. :statisfie

I wouldn't be able to make any such claim, since I cannot see into people's hearts and minds. Only God can.

May God be pleased with our intentions and our sincere desire to serve and honour him.

[PouringRain]

Good post, glo. I agree that Christians fast for a variety of reasons and in a variety of ways.

Often when we see those in the Bible fasting (and christians who fast), it is for the purposes of drawing closer to God, strength, and also when a decision is needed and they are waiting on God's direction/ will.

I usually fast without telling anybody else, and I do it quietly and alone

This comes from Matthew 6: 16-18 Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

On top of this, we fast on other days of our choosing if we want to, feel the need to, or simply wish to for Allah's sake, and many people do. These fasts are invariably kept quiet, the knowledge of it being between you and Allah alone.

Peace

It sounds like this type of fast is more similar to what most Christians do.

As I mentioned in my first post, many christian denominations no longer follow rituals. One exception would be lent, but even that is observed differently in different denominations. (Lent, is the 40 day fast in remembrance of Jesus' fast in the wilderness.)

[Sister Unknown]

The days of worship during fasting are a bit more serious than our everyday worship. There was an example I'll try to give, it is like the winter in a year. During late winter (maybe not the right season), the earth is filled with water that later on becomes very useful. Same with Ramadhan, it is a month in which we learn a lot of piety that lasts the entire year.


Ramadhan is a means of attaining piety and conscience of Allah because the one who is fasting, is exercising self-control by refusing his or her personal desires for the pleasure of Allah. It also reminds us of the suffering of those who are unable to provide for themselves on a daily basis, and fills us with empathy toward the poor, gratitude toward Allah for His blessings, and humility in what we have been given.

Ramadhan begins when the new moon has been sighted. This means that if it has been sighted in Africa, or Saudi Arabia or even South America, then Ramadhan has begun for all of us. There are prayer schedules and there are also Ramadhan schedules which aid people in knowing when to pray/break their fast.

[جوري]

The couple of orthodox christians that I knew, didn't enjoy fasting, one kept asking 'the father' for allowances which he well allowed, I am not sure by whose authority or which is the point, she might as well had gone on a jenny craig diet is that were its purpose. We cannot in my humble opinion make God acquiesce to our desires and then make the claim that, it is how God wants it, because God is love. If you are not God, then you can't speak for God.. It is as if saying the teacher wants us to read this book but I only read chapter 13 because it was my favorite and he'll be pleased.. don't then complain if you end up failing the exam.

2:183 O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may (learn) self-restraint,

fasting should teach us empathy, self-restrain, discipline, humility, but it should also make us grow closer to God, closer to those less fortunate, closer to the ummah and closer to our bodies.. most physical ailments come from what we gorge on.. what a blessing it is to have a pillar of the religion where one detoxes their body and grow spiritually..

al7mdlillah for surely the gift of Islam isn't merely for the hereafter but in the here and now!

:w:

[PouringRain]

Thank you sister unknown and the vale's lily. Those were both very good posts. Sister unknown, I like what you wrote about ramadan-- some very good points about the benefits. The vale's lily, I couldn't agree with you more. It is ironic that in the past couple of days I have had a similar discussion with christians about people who claim to know God's will, but in reality it is their own will. It is too often that people make that mistake.

[sister herb]

Both ways have strength and weaknesses. I trust that God sees the effort and desire in both Muslims and Christians, when they fast for his sake. :statisfie

Peace with you;

may Allah be mercy to everyone who do anything, like fasting, for His sake. Allah knows the best.

your sister in humanity

[Ramadhan]

Greetings, Insane Insaan

I did not mean to say that Muslims don't fast for the simply joy of doing it for God.

I guess what I meant was that when there is no obligation put on people at all to fast, and then they do it, it's perhaps a sure sign that they are doing it willingly and with the right heart.
That's not to say that people for whom fasting is obligatory don't do it with the right heart too. :statisfie

I wouldn't be able to make any such claim, since I cannot see into people's hearts and minds. Only God can.

May God be pleased with our intentions and our sincere desire to serve and honour him.

I am confused why you keep chosing to ignore the explanations given that millions of muslims are fasting on any given day (with the exception of few certain days in a year where it's forbidden to fast), and their fastings are NOT obligated. Most of them do it simply for God. There is a hadith (cant remember the details) that says fasting is the only ibada that is for Allah because when someone does fasting, only they and Allah know.

Anyway, the jews were commanded to fast, prophet Jesus a.s. also fasted because he was commanded to.
And I am not sure christians today fast in the same way as jesus a.s. did.

[PouringRain]

And I am not sure christians today fast in the same way as jesus a.s. did.

On a large scale, I'd say no, and agree with you. On a smaller scale, there are those who feel things like that are important to them.

[glo]

I am confused why you keep chosing to ignore the explanations given that millions of muslims are fasting on any given day (with the exception of few certain days in a year where it's forbidden to fast), and their fastings are NOT obligated. Most of them do it simply for God. There is a hadith (cant remember the details) that says fasting is the only ibada that is for Allah because when someone does fasting, only they and Allah know.

What makes you think that I am ignoring Insane Insaan's explanation? I have read it with great interest.

And I entirely agree with her. When we fast, we should do so willingly and with a joyful and giving and serving heart.
The point I was making (and which you seem to chose to ignore), was that when fasting is obligatory it may be difficult to discern whether people are doing it willingly and joyfully, or because they have to and want to conform with their peers.

One could argue that it really doesn't matter what people think - because it is God who matters, and he knows people's hearts. I would agree with that.
One could argue that you have to fast, full stop. Doing it willingly may be better, but doing it grudgingly is better than not doing it at all. I could accept that as a view point, although I am not sure that I personally agree with it.

Anyway, and just to clarify - the Ramadan fast is obligatory, isn't it?

[Ramadhan]

What makes you think that I am ignoring Insane Insaan's explanation? I have read it with great interest.

And I entirely agree with her. When we fast, we should do so willingly and with a joyful and giving and serving heart.
The point I was making (and which you seem to chose to ignore), was that when fasting is obligatory it may be difficult to discern whether people are doing it willingly and joyfully, or because they have to and want to conform with their peers.One could argue that it really doesn't matter what people think - because it is God who matters, and he knows people's hearts. I would agree with that.One could argue that you have to fast, full stop. Doing it willingly may be better, but doing it grudgingly is better than not doing it at all. I could accept that as a view point, although I am not sure that I personally agree with it.

You cannot judge whether people do it willingly or not, so why keep bringing up the point?
Anyway, as I already said, at any given day, millions of muslims are fastings for the sake of Allah SWT, many more than the total christians who fast in a year.
When I said the word "fasting" here is the way fastings were done by the prophets pbut which was commanded by God.

And yes, the Ramadan fasting is obligatory, just like the 5 times a day shalaah.

Anyway, why did prophet Jesus a.s. fast? Did the disciples fast?

How did christians stop fasting, or maybe more accurately, how did they make fasting optional?

[Insaanah]

And I entirely agree with her. When we fast, we should do so willingly and with a joyful and giving and serving heart.
The point I was making (and which you seem to chose to ignore), was that when fasting is obligatory it may be difficult to discern whether people are doing it willingly and joyfully, or because they have to and want to conform with their peers.

One could argue that you have to fast, full stop. Doing it willingly may be better, but doing it grudgingly is better than not doing it at all. I could accept that as a view point, although I am not sure that I personally agree with it.

My apologies here, for I realise that there is something that I haven't mentioned.

To be fair, a non-Muslim will just see Ramadan as a compulsory fast, which either willingly or unwillingly, you have to do and there is no choice.

What I have failed to mention, so that non-Muslims can understand a bit better, is the virtues of Ramadan, and the huge, huge, reward, virtue and benefit associated with fasting, praying etc that month, quite apart from the physical, mental, and spiritual benefits.

Rewards so huge, that you can't get at any other time of the year, or any other days:

- “There has come to you Ramadaan, a blessed month which Allaah has enjoined you to fast, during which the gates of heaven are opened and the gates of Hell are closed, and the rebellious devils are chained up. In it there is a night which is better than a thousand months, and whoever is deprived of its goodness is indeed deprived.” Narrated by al-Nasaa’i, 2106; Ahmad, 8769.

- “Whoever fasts Ramadaan out of faith and in the hope of reward, his previous sins will be forgiven.” And al-Bukhaari (2008) and Muslim (174)

- Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “Whoever spends the nights of Ramadaan in prayer out of faith and in the hope of reward, his previous sins will be forgiven.”

- Al-Bazzaar (Kashf 962) narrated that Abu Sa’eed said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “Allaah has people whom He redeems every day and night – i.e., in Ramadaan – and every Muslim every day and night has a prayer that is answered.”

- Fasting Ramadaan is a means of expiation for the sins committed since the previous Ramadaan, so long as one avoids major sins. It was proven in Saheeh Muslim (233) that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “The five daily prayers, from one Friday to the next and from one Ramadaan to the next are expiation for (sins committed) in between, so long as you avoid major sins.”

- Fasting in Ramadaan is equivalent to fasting ten months, as is indicated by the hadeeth in Saheeh Muslim (1164) narrated from Abu Ayyoob al-Ansaari: “Whoever fasts Ramadaan then follows it with six days of Shawwaal, it will be like fasting for a lifetime.” Ahmad (21906) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “Whoever fasts Ramadaan, a month is like ten months, and fasting six days after al-Fitr will complete the year.”

- Whoever prays qiyaam (the night prayer)in Ramadaan with the imam until he finishes, it will be recorded for him that he spent the whole night in prayer, because of the report narrated by Abu Dawood (1370) and others from the hadeeth of Abu Dharr (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “Whoever prays qiyaam with the imam until he finishes, it will be recorded for him that he spent the whole night in prayer.”

- It is strongly recommended in Ramadaan to study the Qur’aan together and to read it a great deal. You may study the Qur’aan together by reciting it to someone else and by having someone else recite it to you. The evidence that this is mustahabb is the fact that Jibreel (Gabriel, peace be upon him) used to meet the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) every night in Ramadaan and study the Qur’aan with him. Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6; Muslim, 2308.

- The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “Whoever gives iftaar (food to break the fast at the time of the fasts end) to one who is fasting will have a reward like his, without that detracting from the fasting person’s reward in the slightest.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 807; Ibn Maajah, 1746.

These are just a small amount of the hadeeths on the topic.

So you can see Ramadan is completely extraordinary, and fasting during it being compulsory or not doesn't make any difference to the joy and the hope that everyone feels during this blessed month, the world over.

To Muslims, when it arrives, it's like a most beloved guest with you for a month. When Ramadan finishes, there is utter sadness, that that opportunity for reward is finished, and emotional prayers are said, asking Allah to give us it's reward and to make us alive to see and take part and benefit from the next Ramadan.

Peace.

[PouringRain]

Anyway, as I already said, at any given day, millions of muslims are fastings for the sake of Allah SWT, many more than the total christians who fast in a year.

Could you please cite the source from which you derive this statistic? Thank you. :)

[glo]

So you can see Ramadan is completely extraordinary, and fasting during it being compulsory or not doesn't make any difference to the joy and the hope that everyone feels during this blessed month, the world over.

To Muslims, when it arrives, it's like a most beloved guest with you for a month. When Ramadan finishes, there is utter sadness, that that opportunity for reward is finished, and emotional prayers are said, asking Allah to give us it's reward and to make us alive to see and take part and benefit from the next Ramadan.

Peace.

Thank you, sis.
That's really informative and helpful!

Having been in this forum for 4 years now I have certainly noticed and admired the deep feelings of joy and dedication which Muslims have expressed for Ramadan. :statisfie
I understand that although it is a compulsory fast, there will undoubtedly be uncounted Muslims who consider it a joy and blessing to fast for the sake of Allah.

* * *

Something that I find slightly different, being a Christian (it would be good to hear Pouring Rain's thoughts here) is the sense of fasting for a reward.
I understand this from an Islamic point of view, but I don't think I can relate to that particularly well as a Christian.

Personally speaking, I don't think I fast because I think God will reward me for it. I fast as my gift and worship to God. It's an unconditional offering - I don't think I expect anything from God in return for it ...

(Any thoughts?)

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

... I don't think I fast because I think God will reward me for it. ....(Any thoughts?)

oh no glo , my thought is different . I expect so much from God Almighty . I see no problem to do fasting with the intention to please God Almighty and get rewards specially on hereafter .

The final day will be very scary even for the messengers . We will have to depend on mercy of God . So , for each fasting , if our sins are forgiven and we can go to Paradise , that will be so wonderful :D

[Insaanah]

Something that I find slightly different, being a Christian (it would be good to hear Pouring Rain's thoughts here) is the sense of fasting for a reward.
I understand this from an Islamic point of view, but I don't think I can relate to that particularly well as a Christian.

Personally speaking, I don't think I fast because I think God will reward me for it. I fast as my gift and worship to God. It's an unconditional offering - I don't think I expect anything from God in return for it ...

(Any thoughts?)

Just to clarify, the primary reason we fast isn't to get reward. It is to please Him and worship Him, as well as to fulfil His command, rather than for any self-interest.

Our fasting is not conditional on getting that reward. Our reward is a lovely bonus from Allah, and because He is Fair, Just and Loving, He gives us so much reward for it as well.

No good deed done for His sake goes unrewarded:

"Whoso bringeth a good deed will receive tenfold the like thereof, while whoso bringeth an ill-deed will be awarded but the like thereof; and they will not be wronged." (6:160)

Peace.

[glo]

Salaam/Peace

oh no glo , my thought is different . I expect so much from God Almighty . I see no problem to do fasting with the intention to please God Almighty and get rewards specially on hereafter .

The final day will be very scary even for the messengers . We will have to depend on mercy of God . So , for each fasting , if our sins are forgiven and we can go to Paradise , that will be so wonderful :D

Just to clarify, the primary reason we fast isn't to get reward. It is to please Him and worship Him, as well as to fulfil His command, rather than for any self-interest.

Our fasting is not conditional on getting that reward. Our reward is a lovely bonus from Allah, and because He is Fair, Just and Loving, He gives us so much reward for it as well.

No good deed done for His sake goes unrewarded:

"Whoso bringeth a good deed will receive tenfold the like thereof, while whoso bringeth an ill-deed will be awarded but the like thereof; and they will not be wronged." (6:160)

Peace.

Thank you both for sharing your thoughts on this.

I can understand that Muslims fast to please and worship God, and I am not belittling or denying that.
But the focus on good deeds leading to a reward seems stronger in Islam than in Christianity.

I think the difference is that Christians believe to have gained God's forgiveness and grace already - therefore good deeds are done is response to God's goodness and mercy on us.
Whereas Muslims believe that they have to work their hardest to be allowed entry into Jennah - therefore good deeds are done in order to gain God's rewards.

I am sure we have discussed this before in other threads, and it probably doesn't belong in this one.



I enjoy discussing this topic, realising the similarities between our faiths and trying to understand the differences better.
Thank you all for joining. :statisfie

[جوري]

Thank you both for sharing your thoughts on this.

I can understand that Muslims fast to please and worship God, and I am not belittling or denying that.
But the focus on good deeds leading to a reward seems stronger in Islam than in Christianity.

I think the difference is that Christians believe to have gained God's forgiveness and grace already - therefore good deeds are done is response to God's goodness and mercy on us.
Whereas Muslims believe that they have to work their hardest to be allowed entry into Jennah - therefore good deeds are done in order to gain God's rewards.

I am sure we have discussed this before in other threads, and it probably doesn't belong in this one.



I enjoy discussing this topic, realising the similarities between our faiths and trying to understand the differences better.
Thank you all for joining. :statisfie

In fact all Muslims are headed toward heaven insha'Allah regardless of whether they are bad or good Muslims, but it is certainly not a reason to neglect ones duties, I often wonder of the laxity with which Christians live their lives having 'guaranteed God's forgiveness' Seems presumptive to say the least? .. does god distinguish between Anna Nicole Smith and 'mother Theresa' What is the point at all if you bang your way through life or spend it on the streets of Calcutta handing rice for conversions in your opinion? Doesn't make God a very just God does it?

Make no mistake, the rituals that we perform in Islam are for our own welfare whether spiritual or mundane .. God doesn't need our prayers, but the prayers he's allowed us are a chance for us to openly communicate with him, rather than simply treat him like a genie when life gets tough, and the same for every ritual, whether fasting or pilgrimage or giving alms..

all the best

[PouringRain]

Something that I find slightly different, being a Christian (it would be good to hear Pouring Rain's thoughts here) is the sense of fasting for a reward.
I understand this from an Islamic point of view, but I don't think I can relate to that particularly well as a Christian.

Personally speaking, I don't think I fast because I think God will reward me for it. I fast as my gift and worship to God. It's an unconditional offering - I don't think I expect anything from God in return for it ...

(Any thoughts?)

I can give my thoughts, and actually it could be a topic all on its own. :) I would have responded sooner but I have been away most of the day.

I am always put off by the idea of doing things for a reward in both religions (Islam and Christianity). I am not sure if it is stronger in one religion or another, and to me it seems to be more individuals. I have wondered if it could simply be an artifact of personality and those who are more extrinsically motivated, versus those who have intrinsic motivation. So, for me, anytime I hear of someone (Muslim or Christian) who babbles on about what they are doing for what rewards in the hereafter, it annoys me. I feel we should do things out of our love and devotion for God-- not because we are getting something out of the deal. The thought of getting something never even crosses my mind, and even if I died and discovered it was all a lie, I still would not come back and live my life any differently. Before people start getting offended, I just wanted to say that there is a difference in someone commenting on the rewards in the afterlife, and in someone who constantly is obsessed with what they are doing and what they are getting out of the deal. To be honest, absolutely no one in this thread jumped out at me as being the second. I felt that all comments in this thread were made with the intention of explaining. So, no, I am not at all calling out or pointing fingers at anyone here. :)

Even though both Islam and Christianity discuss rewards in the afterlife, I don't feel that either religion is particularly focused on those rewards. That is why I think it is more of an individual-based problem. Glo, you must not have seen/ known too many Christians who speak of getting their rewards in the afterlife for their good deeds. :) There was one day many months ago, where it seemed like every thread I read on both the Christian and Muslim forum that day was people talking in that manner-- no relief for me from it-- and it is one things that can really annoy me over time. Hahah (Yes, you asked me a question about one of my pet peeves. :) )

[glo]

I am always put off by the idea of doing things for a reward in both religions (Islam and Christianity). I am not sure if it is stronger in one religion or another, and to me it seems to be more individuals. I have wondered if it could simply be an artifact of personality and those who are more extrinsically motivated, versus those who have intrinsic motivation.

Even though both Islam and Christianity discuss rewards in the afterlife, I don't feel that either religion is particularly focused on those rewards. That is why I think it is more of an individual-based problem. Glo, you must not have seen/ known too many Christians who speak of getting their rewards in the afterlife for their good deeds. :)

Hi Pouring Rain

I am glad you took the time to reply.
The idea that an excessive focus on the rewards in the afterlife could be individual rather than religion-based is very new and interesting to me. I will certainly have to ponder on that for a bit! :)
You are right, I don't seem to recall Christians going on about rewards in the afterlife - neither here nor in my 'real world'. But now I wonder whether I hear my Christian brothers and sisters differently, or whether they use terminology which I am more familiar with and therefore question and confront less ...?

So, for me, anytime I hear of someone (Muslim or Christian) who babbles on about what they are doing for what rewards in the hereafter, it annoys me. I feel we should do things out of our love and devotion for God-- not because we are getting something out of the deal. The thought of getting something never even crosses my mind, and even if I died and discovered it was all a lie, I still would not come back and live my life any differently.

It's as if you had taken those worlds right out of my own heart, sis! :statisfie
That's exactly how I feel too.

There was one day many months ago, where it seemed like every thread I read on both the Christian and Muslim forum that day was people talking in that manner-- no relief for me from it-- and it is one things that can really annoy me over time. Hahah (Yes, you asked me a question about one of my pet peeves. :) )

Haha! ;D

[Ramadhan]

I often wonder of the laxity with which Christians live their lives having 'guaranteed God's forgiveness' Seems presumptive to say the least? .. does god distinguish between Anna Nicole Smith and 'mother Theresa' What is the point at all if you bang your way through life or spend it on the streets of Calcutta handing rice for conversions in your opinion? Doesn't make God a very just God does it?

Exactly! I have thought a lot about this too.

When Paul introduced the concept of jesus eating man's sins, christians/christianity has been on slippery slope since.
Why pray/worships one God, Why fasts, why giving alms, why do good etc etc (acts that have been commanded by God for mankind and has been relayed by all prophets) if all you have to do is "okay, I believe jesus ate my sins" and you will go on your merry way to heaven.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

So, for me, anytime I hear of someone (Muslim or Christian) who babbles on about what they are doing for what rewards in the hereafter, it annoys me. I feel we should do things out of our love and devotion for God-- not because we are getting something out of the deal. The thought of getting something never even crosses my mind,

If all humans thought like this, what would be the need of heaven? In Islam, we follow a middle way where love and devotion to Allaah (swt) is balanced with fear and hope:

The heart in its journey towards Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, is like a bird whose head is love, and hope and fear are its two wings. When the head and the two wings are sound and healthy the flight of the bird is good, but when the head is cut off, it immediately dies, and when either or both wings are deficient, the bird cannot properly fly and may become victim of any hunter or snare. The righteous predecessors preferred to strengthen the wing of fear during good times when heedlessness is feared, and to strengthen the wing of hope at times of calamity and when near death.

Some have said that it is better to strengthen fear more than hope because when vain hopes overcome a person he is ruined. Others say that the best of situations is a complete balance of hope and fear with overwhelming love, for love is composite,while hope is a sharpener and fear a driver.

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=664

Moreover, real love and devotion to God is in submitting to His commands. This is because loving God should lead to loving what He loves. One who loves someone without submitting to him is not worshipping him. Here is an article which touches on this topic:

http://www.islam21c.com/spirituality...g-commandments

[Sister Unknown]

The sister is correct in a way: The hadeeth which says that :

Imam al-Bukhari (may Allah have mercy on him), in his as-Sahih, reported a tradition on the authority of Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) in which the prophet (salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “none of you will be saved by his/her actions”. His companions replied and said, “Not even you messenger of Allah?” and he (salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “not even me, unless Allah envelopes me in His mercy. Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship Allah in the morning, the afternoon and during a part of the night, and always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course so you can reach your target (Paradise).” He, al-Bukhari, also reported in another chapter of his book that the prophet (salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “The religion of Islam is easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way so adopt a middle, moderate, regular course and try to achieve perfection in order to receive glad tidings that you will be rewarded; and gain strength by worshipping in the mornings and the nights.” Likewise he reported, from the traditions narrated by Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her), that the prophet (salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately so that you may receive glad tidings because one’s good deeds will not make him enter Paradise.” They asked, “Even you, messenger of Allah?” He said, “Even I, unless and until Allah envelops me with His pardon and Mercy” and “Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately and know that your deeds will not make you enter Paradise, and that the most beloved deeds to Allah are the most regular and constant even if they were few.”

http://thebeneficialword.com/?p=240

[glo]

In fact all Muslims are headed toward heaven insha'Allah regardless of whether they are bad or good Muslims, but it is certainly not a reason to neglect ones duties, I often wonder of the laxity with which Christians live their lives having 'guaranteed God's forgiveness' Seems presumptive to say the least? .. does god distinguish between Anna Nicole Smith and 'mother Theresa' What is the point at all if you bang your way through life or spend it on the streets of Calcutta handing rice for conversions in your opinion? Doesn't make God a very just God does it?

I had to google Anna Nicole Smith to find out who she was.
I don't know where Anna Nicole stands with God, and how her faith journey is. God knows that better than I do.

Actually, the Bible doesn't say that people can do what they like. It's a misconception many people seem to have.
In fact, your sentence above, which I put in bold, does not sound different from the Christian view at all.

Matthew 25 verses 31-40 say this:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

So clearly, people are judged by how they behaved.

But (and I think this is a difference in comparison to Islam), the emphasis seems to be more on 'doing good as a result of having committed ones life to God and letting God's Spirit work within oneself' instead of 'doing good to please God and gain his favour and ultimately salvation'.

James 2 verses 14-19 indicates quite clearly that somebody who has truly submitted to God should show so by his/her deeds:

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Does that not clearly indicate that Christians are not just allowed to do what they like, quietly trusting that they are saved anyway?

Galatians 5 verses 22-25 explains the fruits of God's spirit - i.e. how letting God work in us should show on the outside:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Ultimately, if somebody has really committed their lives to God, they should start developing those qualities - and the further they walk with God, the more those qualities should show.

Perhaps that's why Mother Teresa of Calcutta demonstrated higher qualities than perhaps Anne Nicole Smith seems to ...

Make no mistake, the rituals that we perform in Islam are for our own welfare whether spiritual or mundane .. God doesn't need our prayers, but the prayers he's allowed us are a chance for us to openly communicate with him, rather than simply treat him like a genie when life gets tough, and the same for every ritual, whether fasting or pilgrimage or giving alms..

I think that is very beautiful and very true, and very much reflects what I wrote so lengthily above.
The more we walk with God, the more he will cleanse us and purify us.

Perhaps a difference between our faiths (although Pouring Rain may convince me that the difference is individual, rather than religion-based :D) is that Islam seems to put the emphasis on the individual to do good and be good and strive to be a better person; whereas Christianity seems to put the emphasis on the individual to give up his/her own desires, commit his/her life to God and let God's spirit change him/her to become a better person.

Pouring Rain, I think we have taken your thread well and truly off topic ... Sorry! :embarrass
(But it is certainly very thought-provoking and makes for a very good discussion!)

[Insaanah]

If all humans thought like this, what would be the need of heaven? In Islam, we follow a middle way where love and devotion to Allaah (swt) is balanced with fear and hope:

The heart in its journey towards Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, is like a bird whose head is love, and hope and fear are its two wings. When the head and the two wings are sound and healthy the flight of the bird is good, but when the head is cut off, it immediately dies, and when either or both wings are deficient, the bird cannot properly fly and may become victim of any hunter or snare. The righteous predecessors preferred to strengthen the wing of fear during good times when heedlessness is feared, and to strengthen the wing of hope at times of calamity and when near death.

Some have said that it is better to strengthen fear more than hope because when vain hopes overcome a person he is ruined. Others say that the best of situations is a complete balance of hope and fear with overwhelming love, for love is composite,while hope is a sharpener and fear a driver.

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=664

Moreover, real love and devotion to God is in submitting to His commands. This is because loving God should lead to loving what He loves. One who loves someone without submitting to him is not worshipping him. Here is an article which touches on this topic:

http://www.islam21c.com/spirituality...g-commandments

Beautifully and eloquently explained, how we must strike a balance between love, fear and hope.

Also this post explains it well too:

LOVE, FEAR AND HOPE
ad-Dawah illaah Magazine

One of the most beautiful things about the concept of worship in Islaam is the truly unique way in which it incorporates the feeling of love, fear and hope within the hearts of the worshippers of Allaah. Understanding how to combine these three qualities into the worship (ibaadah) of Allaah is one of the most essential things that every Muslim must grasp, not least because every sect which has drifted from the Straight Path has strayed in the aspect of worship. The deviation of the other religions in this regard is clear for all to see: “God is love! Jesus is love!” say the Christians, denying the fact that Allaah should be feared too. As for the Jews, their hearts were
filled only with hope; hope that the Fire will never touch them, since they were the “Promised People”.

In Islaam however, no worship is complete without the presence of all three qualities: love of Allaah, hope in His Mercy and fear of His Punishment. Contemplate the opening Soorah of the Qur'aan - Soorah al-Faatihah - and you will see this for yourself.

Aayah 1: “All praise [and thanks] is for Allaah, Rabb of all the worlds.”

In this opening aayah (verse) of the Qur'aan, we have LOVE of Allaah and every time we recite this aayah we are testifying to our love for Allaah. How is that you ask?

It is because in the aayah, we are acknowledging that Allaah is our Rabb and the Rabb of all the worlds. Rabb is usually translated as ‘the Lord’, but this translation does not do justification to this name of Allaah and all the meanings this name carries. In reality, Rabb means that Allaah is the Creator of everything; He sustains and nourishes everything; He gives life and Death; anything good that we have is from Him; everything is dependant on Him and nothing can happen unless He wills it. Furthermore, for the Muslims He - the Rabb - in the One who has guided us to the Truth and given us good morals and manners.

Thus when we testify that Allaah is our Rabb, then we are acknowledging that He is the One who has given us so many blessings - so many that if we try to enumerate His blessings, we would be unable to do so. So how could we not but LOVE Him?

After all, we all love those who show kindness towards us or present us with gifts. And therefore the Messenger of Allaah (salla-allahu alaihe wa-sallam) encouraged the exchange of gifts between Muslims because it helps to strengthen ties and develop love for one another. He (salla-allahu alaihe wa-sallam) said, “Give gifts to one another, you will come to love one another.”[1]

So imagine the LOVE we should have for our Rabb who has given us everything: nice families, shelter, security, food, health and above all the Guidance of Islaam and the Sunnah. We should be overwhelming in our love for Him. That is why we praise Him and thank Him and say, “All praise (and thanks) is for Allaah, Rabbil-‘aalameen.”

Aayah 2: The Rahmaan (Merciful) and the Raheem (Mercy-Giving).”

In the first aayah of Soorah al-Faatihah, Allaah mentioned He was the Rabb. In this aayah two more of His beautiful names are mentioned: ar-Rahmaan and ar-Raheem. Ar-Rahmaan means that He is the Most Merciful. Ar-Raheem means that He is the Giver of Mercy, in other words His actions are full of Mercy and He shows Mercy to His creation.[2]

When we mention these two names of Allaah, then we have HOPE. Since He is the One who is full of Mercy, and we hope He will forgive our mistakes and shortcomings. We should never loose hope, because Allaah says in the Qur'aan, “O My slaves, who have transgressed against themselves! Despair not of the Mercy of Allaah, Verily Allaah forgives all sins (except sins). Truly He is Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful” [39: 53]

The need to have FEAR in our worship is shown by the next aayah of Soorah al-Faatihah.

Aayah 3: “King/Master of the Day of Judgement.”

When we recite this aayah, we remind ourselves of the Day of Judgement - that awful Day, when all of humanity shall stand before Allaah … naked, uncircumcised and barefooted. People will appear drunk though they are not.
On that Day, every person will stand before Allaah and account for his sins, knowing that not even the smallest action which he did is hidden from Allaah: “So whosoever does good equal to the weight of an atom, shall see it. And whosoever does evil equal to the weight of an atom shall see it.” [Soorah 99 : 7-8]

So when we recite this third aayah of Soorah al-Faatihah, we remind ourselves of this Judgement and accountability and that should bring about in us a sense of fear - that maybe our evil actions will be too great and we will be responsible for them - May Allaah protect us from such a fate. Then the next verse goes on to say: “You alone we worship.” i.e. we single out Allaah for our worship. And how do we worship Him? With LOVE, HOPE and FEAR. And in order to achieve these qualities, we need Allaah’s assistance, so we say then, “We seek Your Aid.”


Striking the Balance

After understanding the need to have love, hope and fear in our worship, the next question that naturally arises is that, in what proportion should these qualities be present in our worship? Again we turn to the Qur'aan for the answer.

“Call upon Him with Fear and Hope.” [ Soorah (7): 56]

“Their sides forsake their beds, to invoke their Lord in Fear and Hope.” [(32): 16]

So both fear and hope should be present in our hearts in equal proportions. Anas reported that the Prophet (salla-allahu alaihe wa-sallam) entered upon a young boy who was dying. The Prophet (salla-allahu alaihe wa-sallam) asked, “How are you?” The boy replied, “O Messenger of Allaah, I am in between hoping in Allaah and fearing for my sins.” The Prophet (salla-allahu alaihe wa-sallam) said, “The like of these two qualities do not unite in the heart of a servant except that Allaah gives him what he hopes for and protects him from what he feared.”[3]

Therefore whenever we do a good action, we should hope that it has been accepted by Allaah, but at the same time we should also have fear that maybe it isn’t enough or that the good deed has not been worthy of acceptance. Likewise when we sin, we should have hope that Allaah will accept our repentance and forgive us, but we should also fear that we may be accountable for it.

This balance should be reflected in our Dawah (which of course is also worship). So when we invite others to the Truth, we should not give them the impression that ‘they have nothing to worry about’, nor do we suggest that ‘they are doomed forever’. Rather we couple warnings with encouragement. We inform them of the horrors of the Fire and tell them about the bliss of Paradise. Just as we find Allaah telling us in the Qur'aan: “Verily your Lord is Quick in Punishment and verily He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Giver of Mercy.” [(7): 167]

And the scholars of Islaam say, “He who worships Allaah with hope only is a murji’ee. He who worships Him in fear only is a Harooree [Khaarijee]. And He who worships Allaah in love only is a Zindeeq [eg. the Soofis, the Christians, etc]. But he who worships Allaah in fear, love and hope is a Muwahhid Mu’min [a believer upon Tawheed].”[4]

The Murji’a were a sect that emerged within the first century of Islaam. The people of this sect (i.e. the murji’ees) believe that sins do not affect faith i.e. no matter what sins a person commits, his eeman (faith) is complete and perfect. They worship Allaah only with hope because they believe that as long as one believed and testified to Islaam, they would enter Paradise straight away regardless of their actions.

Unfortunately, all too often nowadays we find a similar attitude amongst many Muslims today, which is why we find that so often we try to advise someone to turn to the Deen and abandon sin, they just point to their hearts and say, “Allaah knows what is in my heart”, or “Allaah forgives”, or something else like that.

As for the Khawaarij, they worshipped Allaah in fear only because they held that anyone who commits major sins was a disbeliever and would therefore dwell in Hellfire forever. This of course is gross extremism and straying from the correct path. The Prophet (salla-allahu alaihe wa-sallam) said: “There were two men of Banoo Israa’eel who strove equally. One of then committed sins and the other strove hard in worship. And the one who strove in worship cto see the other in sin and kept saying to him: “Desist.” So one day he found him committing a sin and so said to him: “Desist” So he replied, “Leave me by my Lord, have you been sent as a watcher over me?”. He said, “By Allaah, Allaah will not forgive you, nor will Allaah admit you to Paradise”. Then their souls were taken and they came together before the Lord of the Worlds. So Allaah said to the one who strove in worship: “Did you have Knowledge of Me, or did you have any power in what is in my Hands?” And He said to the sinner: “Go and enter Paradise through My Mercy.” And He said to the other: “Take him to the fire.” Aboo Hurairah t said: “By Him in whose Hand is my soul! He spoke a word which destroyed this world and the hereafter for him.”[5]

Therefore we should never say of anyone that he or she is a ‘lost cause’ or ‘doomed’ or the like for this is a great sin. However, we fear for those who commit major sins because they have been threatened with punishment in the Qur'aan and the Hadeeth. However it is up to Allaah whether He chooses to punish them or whether He will forgive them.

The Zindeeqs - or the heretics - are groups, such as many of the Soofis who have become like the Christians and reduced the religion to just ‘love’ and so all their talk and their mystical practices are centred around developing more ‘love’.

It is thus clear how imbalances in any of the three qualities of worship can lead to major deviation and straying to the True Guidance. It is therefore important for every Muslim to combine all three of them in his heart properly. As was mentioned before, the fear and hope should be in equal proportions[6], but as for love then that should be uppermost. As Fudayl ibn-‘Iyaad - rahimahullah - (d.187H) said,

“The love is better than the fear. The fear checks us from sinning, and the love makes us do what is prescribed with an open heart.”[7]

May Allaah grant us what we hope for and protect us from what we fear. And may the Blessings of Allaah be upon our Prophet Muhammed, upon his family, his Companions and upon all those who follow Guidance until the Last Day.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Collected by Imaam Bukhari in al-Adabul-Mufrad and declared hasan by al-Albaanee in al-Irwaa (1601)
[2] As explained by Ibnul-Qayyim (d.751H) in Badaa’I ul-Fawaa’id.
[3] Collected in Sunan at-Tirmidhi and Sunan Ibn Majah and authenticated by Sheikh al-Albani in Ahkam al-Janaa’iz (no.2)
[4] Quoted by Ibn Rajjab in al-Takhweef minan-Naar.
[5] Collected in Sunan Abu Dawood (english trans. vol.3, p.1365, no.4883). See Saheehul-Jaami (4455) by Sheikh al-Albani.
[6] This was the opinion of most of the Salaf. Al-Fudayl ibn ‘Iyyaad said that, when one is healthy and well, then fear should predominate, but when terminally ill then hpoe should predominate - so that one should strive to do good when well and not despair of Allaah’s Mercy when terminally ill. [Al-Takhweef minan-Naar]
[7] Reported in Al-Takhweef minan-Naar of Ibn Rajab. Note that some scholars hold that the fear is better than love, and Allaah knows best.

From the Love, Fear and Hope thread.

Peace.

[جوري]

I had to google Anna Nicole Smith to find out who she was.
I don't know where Anna Nicole stands with God, and how her faith journey is. God knows that better than I do.

Actually, the Bible doesn't say that people can do what they like. It's a misconception many people seem to have.
In fact, your sentence above, which I put in bold, does not sound different from the Christian view at all.

Matthew 25 verses 31-40 say this:

Then why do you contradict yourself? you are the one who gave the impression that all is forgiven so long as your god died for your sins.. Anna was always talking about baby Jesus while doing her thing on the side..

So clearly, people are judged by how they behaved.

So, your sins aren't paid for in advance? Just to be clear, since every time your clarify I am more confused!

But (and I think this is a difference in comparison to Islam), the emphasis seems to be more on 'doing good as a result of having committed ones life to God and letting God's Spirit work within oneself' instead of 'doing good to please God and gain his favour and ultimately salvation'.

That is simply a concoction you've created in your mind to appease your own soul. You don't in fact know what reasons people have for doing good.

James 2 verses 14-19 indicates quite clearly that somebody who has truly submitted to God should show so by his/her deeds:

So now we are back to deeds, which you didn't feel obligated to perform just a couple of posts ago, or as before you suggested, no point in fasting as the 'hypocrites do'?

Does that not clearly indicate that Christians are not just allowed to do what they like, quietly trusting that they are saved anyway?

I don't know you tell me, you are the one constantly weaving a different tale!

Galatians 5 verses 22-25 explains the fruits of God's spirit - i.e. how letting God work in us should show on the outside:

So it isn't what is on the inside that matters anymore, no more of the god paid for it let's sin and attain salvation?

Ultimately, if somebody has really committed their lives to God, they should start developing those qualities - and the further they walk with God, the more those qualities should show.

How do you commit yourself to God when you feel no obligation to keep his commandments?

Perhaps that's why Mother Teresa of Calcutta demonstrated higher qualities than perhaps Anne Nicole Smith seems to ...

Perhaps.. who is to say?

All the best

[PouringRain]

Perhaps a difference between our faiths (although Pouring Rain may convince me that the difference is individual, rather than religion-based :D) is that Islam seems to put the emphasis on the individual to do good and be good and strive to be a better person; whereas Christianity seems to put the emphasis on the individual to give up his/her own desires, commit his/her life to God and let God's spirit change him/her to become a better person.

Pouring Rain, I think we have taken your thread well and truly off topic ... Sorry! :embarrass
(But it is certainly very thought-provoking and makes for a very good discussion!)

The part that I think is more individual based has to do with the focus on the gain for the actions done. Otherwise, I agree with your post.

It is interesting that the one Verse you posted in James is the same one I posted on another forum just the other day, and the reply was the same as here about love, hope, and fear. I often think that the messages in scripture are similar, but the understanding is different-- if that makes sense. I will quote what the individual on the other site said, to show the example: ( don't think he would mind me quoting him here, but he explained it very concisely and well in Islam.)

In Islam, you must have faith and perform righteous actions. Faith alone does not save an individual neither does action alone. Faith and action works in congruence. That is why we Muslims live between a thin line of hope and fear. We hope our good deeds are counted and we fear they are not so that we do not incur His wrath.

As a Christian we would start out saying it in a similar way-- we are saved through faith, but faith without works is dead, so both are then necessary. For the muslims they are saying that the hope and fear are essentially what drives the works-- hope of the future and fear of God. For a Christian, we also fear God and have a hope for the future, but for us the driving force behind the works would be love for God. When Jesus was asked what is the greatest commandment he said to love the Lord your God, and the second is like unto it, to love your neighbor as yourself. What many people do not realize is that all the laws can fit within these two--love for God and love for man. What Jesus was saying is that all the laws are important, the difference is that love should be the driving force. Love as an action verb. Christians are told to let their light shine before men, so that they may see their good works and glorify God.

Going back to individual differences though, there are muslims and christians alike that I see who operate out of love for God.... and there are muslims and christians alike who operate out of fear (and hope)-(rewards/ punishments). It's kinda like those people who see a cop and suddenly put on their seat belt or slow their vehicle down. They are operating under the fear of being caught. Those same people often are the ones who will contribute to something if they can gain a reward. For example, telethons to raise money and they are the ones who will only contribute if they are getting something out of the deal. In religion it could be translated that these people pray solely for the reward or out of fear of the punishment. There are Christians also who will push the limits provided they think they won't get caught, or will talk about giving so that they can get their reward in heaven (or on earth). Churches even appeal to these people through their messages on giving ("give and it shall be given back to you, pressed down, shaken, and running over"). On the flip side, there are muslim who I see that pray out of such a love for God and desire to draw closer to him, or give cheerfully. Christians who give cheerfully, expecting nothing in return, or obey God's commands out of love and not trying to push limits.

I hope I am making some sense. Sorry that I don't always put the references from where my verses are found in the Bible. LOL If you want them, just ask and I will look them up for you. (I have always been able to quote the Bible, but recalling numbers is my weakness. Don't ask me to recall dates from history either. :) )

I enjoy reading everyone's posts.

[PouringRain]

In fact all Muslims are headed toward heaven insha'Allah regardless of whether they are bad or good Muslims, but it is certainly not a reason to neglect ones duties, I often wonder of the laxity with which Christians live their lives having 'guaranteed God's forgiveness' Seems presumptive to say the least?

all the best

In Christianity, if someone is a "bad Christian" or constantly lives in sin, then we would say that they are not a Christian. So, we could say that all Christians are going to Heaven, just as you say all Muslims are, but for us the Bible is clear that not every one who says "Lord, Lord" will enter into heaven, and that a tree who does not produce good fruit will be cast into the fire. Often Christians err on the side of "not judging" and simply say that only God knows their heart and who is saved. But the Bible does tell us to be fruit inspectors, so in that sense it is perfectly acceptable to "judge" if one is a Christian by his/her fruit. There are verses that even instruct Christians to have nothing to do with those who claim to be Christians yet are living in sin. Some churches even practice shunning (like the Amish do).

I have seen muslims on this forum say that it is better to be a bad muslim, then not one at all..... maybe because of how you say that all muslims, good and bad, will get to heaven (God willing). As a Christian, if someone is a "bad Christian" then we would not count them as one of us and we would call them to repentance. I have read in Islam how it talks about covering each other's sins, and in Christianity it is the opposite. We believe in bringing those sins into the light so that they may be exposed and will bring the person to repentance. Most Christians do not believe in "once saved, always saved."

So, yes, I agree with you that I wonder why the laxity of so many "Christians." :) "Many are called, but few are chosen."

Please correct me if I have said anything wrong about Islam, as I am only saying the things I have seen said. I realize that others who have said these things could be wrong also. And please feel free to explain if I have misunderstood something, so that I am not ignorant. Thanks.

[glo]

I think Pouring Rain's post explains what I was trying to say better than I did.
And it makes me realise that the Islamic and Christians perspective are probably not as different as we might think.
Faith and deeds are closely linked. Strong faith should lead to good deeds.

"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

In Islam, you must have faith and perform righteous actions. Faith alone does not save an individual neither does action alone. Faith and action works in congruence. That is why we Muslims live between a thin line of hope and fear. We hope our good deeds are counted and we fear they are not so that we do not incur His wrath.

As a Christian we would start out saying it in a similar way-- we are saved through faith, but faith without works is dead, so both are then necessary. For the muslims they are saying that the hope and fear are essentially what drives the works-- hope of the future and fear of God. For a Christian, we also fear God and have a hope for the future, but for us the driving force behind the works would be love for God. When Jesus was asked what is the greatest commandment he said to love the Lord your God, and the second is like unto it, to love your neighbor as yourself. What many people do not realize is that all the laws can fit within these two--love for God and love for man. What Jesus was saying is that all the laws are important, the difference is that love should be the driving force. Love as an action verb. Christians are told to let their light shine before men, so that they may see their good works and glorify God.

I enjoy reading everyone's posts.

I believe that my sins are forgiven through Jesus' sacrifice, and that he restored the relationship between humans and God. I know that goes against Islamic thought, and I would not expect any Muslim to agree with me and accept this notion.

The important thing for the sake of this conversation is that even that belief of having gained salvation through faith in God through Jesus does not give me a free license to do what I like and think 'I'll be forgiven anyway!'. On the contrary, by committing myself to God I am committing to put my own desires aside and walk in his ways, serve him and worship him.
The more honestly and truly I commit (or submit) to God, the better a person I should become.

[glo]

Most Christians do not believe in "once saved, always saved."

That's really powerful, Pouring Rain, and something I have not thought about in a while.
It has really brought to my awareness the need to repeat ones commitment to God on a daily basis, and to continue to express and live the desire to serve and worship God all the time!

Something to take away, as I log off to go to bed ...

Good night :)

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

As a Christian we would start out saying it in a similar way-- we are saved through faith, but faith without works is dead, so both are then necessary. For the muslims they are saying that the hope and fear are essentially what drives the works-- hope of the future and fear of God. For a Christian, we also fear God and have a hope for the future, but for us the driving force behind the works would be love for God.

I do not see the main difference as being the implication that Christianity teaches its followers to love God more than Islam does. In Islam, love is also a huge driving force to do good. The more that a person loves Allaah (swt), the easier it becomes to do good deeds, no matter how difficult they might seem. The more a person loves Allaah (swt), the more he/she enjoys doing good deeds and going beyond what is required of them. This relates back to the other thread about prayer where it was mentioned how prayer is considered a comfort and relief and that communicating with Allaah (swt) is the joy of believers. Similarly, love of Allaah (swt) allows one to see fasting as a mercy and gift from Allaah (swt) by which we can return to Him through our observance of it. There are many examples from the pious predecessors of how they not only strove to do voluntary acts of obedience, but even enjoyed enduring the hardship involved to achieve the pleasure of Allaah (swt). Their statements attest to their extreme love of Allaah (swt). Taking the night vigil supererogatory prayer (Tahajjud) as an example:

Yazeed al-Riqaashi said: “A lot of Tahajjud brings delight to the worshippers, and a lot of thirst (i.e., fasting), brings joy when they meet Allaah.”

Abd-Allaah ibn Wahb said: “Every type of pleasure is enjoyed only once, except for acts of worship, which are enjoyed three times: when you do it, when you remember it, and when you are given the reward for it.”

Muhammad ibn al-Munkadir said: “There is nothing left of the joys of this life except three: qiyaam al-layl, meeting one’s brothers in faith, and praying in congregation.”

Thaabit al-Banaani said: “There is nothing I enjoy more than qiyaam al-layl (optional night prayer)”

That is not to say that hope and fear were not important elements driving such pious people to do good. But their level of devotion and attachment to Allaah (swt) and deriving pleasure from worship is an indication of how love must also have been a very powerful motive behind their deeds.


You will also note from the article posted by sister Insane Insaan that the very first verse in the Qur'an refers to the love of Allaah (swt):

All Praise [and Thanks] are for Allah, Rabb of all the worlds. [Al-Fatihah: 1]

When we acknowledge that Allaah (swt) has given us countless blessings, we are overwhelmed with love for Him and this leads to gratitude. And gratitude for blessings is a means of attaining the pleasure of Allaah (swt) which is the noblest situation of the people of Paradise. When the people of Paradise say, “You have given to us what You have not given to anyone among Your creation,” Allaah will say to them: “ Shall I not give you something better than that?” They will say, “What is it? Have You not brightened our faces, and admitted us to Paradise and saved us from Hell?” He will say, “I bestow My pleasure upon you, and I will never be angry with you after that.” (Based on a hadeeth in Bukhari and Muslim).

Moreover, gratitude is expressed through using one's physical faculties in obedience and avoiding disobedience.

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah said: When the Messenger of Allaah (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) prayed, he would stand for so long that his feet became swollen. ‘Aa’ishah said: O Messenger of Allaah, are you doing this when Allaah has forgiven your past and future sins? He said: “O ‘Aa’ishah, should I not be a thankful slave?” [Narrated by al-Bukhaari (4557) and Muslim (2820)]

This is a very beautiful hadeeth showing how much love the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), our example to be followed, had for Allaah (swt). Even though his past and future sins were forgiven, his love for Allaah (swt) and gratitude meant he continued to strive to be the most excellent slave he could be.


Love of Allaah (swt) is so important in Islam that it is actually one of the conditions upon which one's declaration of faith depends. That is, to love all that the declaration of faith requires and all it implies, to love all those who act upon it and who hold to all that it stands for, and to feel anger at whatever contradicts it. Allah (swt) says:

And [yet], among the people are those who take other than Allah as equals [to Him]. They love them as they [should] love Allah . But those who believe are stronger in love for Allah . And if only they who have wronged would consider [that] when they see the punishment, [they will be certain] that all power belongs to Allah and that Allah is severe in punishment. [2:165]

And He (swt) says:

O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. [5:54]

The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'The sweetness of faith belongs to whoever may find himself in these three states: that Allah and His Messenger are more dear to him than any other thing; that he loves someone only for the sake of Allah; and that he despises a return to disbelief after Allah had saved him from it, as much as he would hate to be thrown into the fires of Hell.' (Bukhari and Muslim)


There are many other hadeeth and examples of the concept of love in Islam, but due to lack of time I hope the above will suffice for now.


Going back to the differences between Islam and Christianity... it is clear that both religions speak of love towards God. I would say a more accurate way of stating the difference is that Christianity chooses to only emphasise the concept of love, whereas Islam gives a more complete picture by balancing that love with fear and hope. Love is one aspect of worship, but not the only one. Let us consider the following quote from the Bible:

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love". 1 John 4:18

It seems that Christians believe that loving God means not having any fear. They also seem to believe that even seeking God's forgiveness renders their love for Him ingenuine, and instead they should "enjoy a state of permanent forgiveness" for all that one may think or do. This is where it must be pointed out that love on its own becomes an extreme, to the extent that it gives one a false sense of security against God's Wrath. It opens the way for one to do as he pleases instead of doing what is required - submitting to God's Will.

On the other hand, Islam teaches us to have fear of Allaah (swt) which is beneficial for the heart. It is possible for such fear to co-exist with love. It is not only for the grave sinners but also for the pious worshippers who fear their deeds may not be accepted. Hence it has been said that "a believer combines righteousness with fear in his heart, while a hypocrite combines evil with impunity."

The following excerpt sheds a little light on the concept of fear in Islam and why it is important:

...Abu Hafs says, "Al-khawf (fear) is Allah's lash with which He straightens up those fleeing from His door." He also said, "Al-khawf is a lamp in the heart, with which the good and the evil inside of the heart can be seen-and everyone you fear from, you run away from him, except Allah-when you fear Him, you run towards Him for refuge."

Hence, the one who fears Allah is a refugee towards His Lord's [mercy] from his Lord's [displeasure].

Abu Suleiman said, "Whenever fear (of Allah) departs a heart, it is ruined." Ibraheem ibn Sufyan said, "When fear of Allah resides in hearts, it burns away the sources of lust and eradicates worldly attachments." Thun-Noon said, "People will stay on the path so long as they have (Allah's) fear when this fear leaves them, they will go astray."

Fear, however, is not the end in itself, but a means towards an end. When that end, Allah's ultimate pleasure, is attained, there is no need for fear. As Allah says to the people of Paradise: "there is no fear upon them, nor do they grieve."

Fear is associated with actions, while love is connected with being and attributes. When the believers enter the Realm of Allah's eternal blessings, their love will multiply, while their fear will disappear. Hence, the place of love is higher and nobler than the place of fear.

The true and praiseworthy fear is that which stops a person from the prohibitions of Allah. But when fear exceeds this boundary, it may bring hopelessness and despair.

Abu Uthman said, "Sincerity of fear is vigilance from sins, open and secret." I also heard Shaykhul Islam Ibn Taymiyyah, may Allah honor his soul, say, "The praiseworthy fear is that which prevented you from the prohibitions of Allah."

The author of al-Manazil, Shaykh al-Harawi, said, "Al-khawf, or fear, is to do away with careless sense of security by envisioning the great news (of the Last Day)."

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=664

The Qur'an mentions the examples of Prophets and pious people who worshipped Allaah by combining fear with hope. Insha'Allaah we can discuss the concept of fear in Islam in more detail later if required.

And Allaah (swt) knows best.

I end with the following poem by the famous Islamic scholar, may Allaah (swt) have mercy upon him, Ibnul Qayyim al Jawziyyah:

Love of Allah

The love of the Beloved
must be unconditionally returned.

If you claim love
yet oppose the Beloved,
then your love is but a pretence.
You love the enemies of your Beloved
and still seek love in return.

You fight the beloved of your Beloved.

Is this Love or the following of shaytaan?

True devotion is nothing
but total submission
of body and soul
to One Love.

We have seen humans claim to submit,
yet their loyalties are many.

They put their trust here, and their hope there,
and their love is without consequence.

[PouringRain]

Thank you, Muhammad. Maybe I could comment and/ or ask about some things in your post.

1) In one place in your post it spoke of Allah forgiving all present and future sins. Is this idea that he has already forgiven ones future sins, or is it the idea that he will forgive ones future sins as man continues to ask and repent? I know that in your prayer forgiveness is continuously asked for, so it would seem that a continual repentance is important, and with repentance brings forgiveness. Or am I thinking wrong and it would be that man's future sins are already forgiven him even before he ever asks, and even if he never asks?

2) I disagree when you say, "I would say a more accurate way of stating the difference is that Christianity chooses to only emphasise the concept of love, whereas Islam gives a more complete picture by balancing that love with fear and hope. [...] It seems that Christians believe that loving God means not having any fear. They also seem to believe that even seeking God's forgiveness renders their love for Him ingenuine, and instead they should "enjoy a state of permanent forgiveness" for all that one may think or do. This is where it must be pointed out that love on its own becomes an extreme, to the extent that it gives one a false sense of security against God's Wrath. It opens the way for one to do as he pleases instead of doing what is required - submitting to God's Will."

Fear and hope are also in Christianity, but I agree when you say that love is emphasized. "The greatest of these is love." When you quoted 1 John it is talking about fear not existing where there is perfect love. In truth, the only perfect love is God. We can strive to be perfected in love, but as long as we are humans on earth we will always fall short, because we are only human and not created perfect. When fear is mentioned in the Bible, we are told to fear God, but not to fear anything else. Godly fear, of complete reverence, is different than the fear of things, which enslaves us. Consider the following:

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

Luke 1:50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him, from generation to generation.

2 Corintians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Philippians 2:12 ... work out your salvation with fear and trembling.


There are many, many more verses on fear. You mentioned that "seeking his forgiveness renders their love ingenuine." I am not sure where your understanding of that comes from. Consider the last verse I quoted above. We are told to "work out our salvation." Salvation is an ongoing process, whereby the believer must continually seek God's forgiveness. It is as I mentioned previous that most Christians do not believe in "once saved, always saved." There are those who do, and those that do would also say that if an individual continually sins following salvation, then that individual was never saved in the first place. But most do not believe that salvation is a one time act, and then the believer may live as he or she wishes following the act. Those who live in sin are not considered Christians, no matter how much their lips profess to be. There is no state of "permanent forgiveness" nor is there license to do as one wishes.

2 Thessalonians 3..... But we command you, brethren, [...] that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly [...] But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary in doing good. And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed.

Psalm 1... Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the path of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful; but his delight is in the law of the LORD, and in His law he meditates day and night.

1 John 1... This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


You can see from these verses that confession of sins and seeking forgiveness is essential. (In the lord's prayer we are also taught to ask forgiveness.) And also that those who walk in sin, we are not supposed to keep company with, nor are they counted as one of us. "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth."

[Insaanah]

1) In one place in your post it spoke of Allah forgiving all present and future sins. Is this idea that he has already forgiven ones future sins, or is it the idea that he will forgive ones future sins as man continues to ask and repent? I know that in your prayer forgiveness is continuously asked for, so it would seem that a continual repentance is important, and with repentance brings forgiveness. Or am I thinking wrong and it would be that man's future sins are already forgiven him even before he ever asks, and even if he never asks?

Greetings, PouringRain,

Brother Muhammad said this:

Moreover, gratitude is expressed through using one's physical faculties in obedience and avoiding disobedience.

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah said: When the Messenger of Allaah (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) prayed, he would stand for so long that his feet became swollen. ‘Aa’ishah said: O Messenger of Allaah, are you doing this when Allaah has forgiven your past and future sins? He said: “O ‘Aa’ishah, should I not be a thankful slave?” [Narrated by al-Bukhaari (4557) and Muslim (2820)]

This is a very beautiful hadeeth showing how much love the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), our example to be followed, had for Allaah (swt). Even though his past and future sins were forgiven, his love for Allaah (swt) and gratitude meant he continued to strive to be the most excellent slave he could be.

This refers specifically and only to prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), only his past and future sins were forgiven.

Despite this he was still thankful and still sought forgiveness.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, as recorded in the hadeeths:

"By Allah, I seek forgiveness and repent to Allah more than seventy times a day." [Muslim 4/2706]

And, "O people, repent to Allah! Verily I repent to Him a hundred times a day." [Abu Dawud 2/85, At-Tirmidhi 5/569].

So yes, you are correct in that we must constantly seek forgiveness.

Peace.

[PouringRain]

Thank you, Insane Insaan! :)

[Muhammad]

Greetings PouringRain,

1) In one place in your post it spoke of Allah forgiving all present and future sins. Is this idea that he has already forgiven ones future sins, or is it the idea that he will forgive ones future sins as man continues to ask and repent? I know that in your prayer forgiveness is continuously asked for, so it would seem that a continual repentance is important, and with repentance brings forgiveness. Or am I thinking wrong and it would be that man's future sins are already forgiven him even before he ever asks, and even if he never asks?

The forgiveness of past and future sins was specific for the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), not for all Muslims. In the Qur'an it mentions:

Verily, We have given you a manifest victory. That Allah may forgive you your sins of the past and the future, and complete His favor on you, and guide you on the straight path. [Al-Fath: 1-2]

Part of the explanation given by Ibn Katheer for this verse is as follows:

[The above verse] contains one of the special virtues of the Messenger , and no one else shares this honor with him. There is not an authentic Hadith that states that any person other than the Messenger earned forgiveness for all of his sins of the past and future on account of performing good deeds. This, indeed, is a great honor for the Messenger of Allah , who fulfilled the requirements of Allah's obedience, righteousness and straightness at a level never surpassed by a human being in past generations, nor will it ever be surpassed in the generations to come. Muhammad is the perfect human being and the leader and chief of all mankind in this life and the Hereafter. And since he was, and will always be, the most obedient of Allah's creation to Him and the most honoring of Allah's commands and prohibitions,

http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=48&tid=49285

Fear and hope are also in Christianity, but I agree when you say that love is emphasized. "The greatest of these is love." When you quoted 1 John it is talking about fear not existing where there is perfect love. In truth, the only perfect love is God. We can strive to be perfected in love, but as long as we are humans on earth we will always fall short, because we are only human and not created perfect. When fear is mentioned in the Bible, we are told to fear God, but not to fear anything else. Godly fear, of complete reverence, is different than the fear of things, which enslaves us. Consider the following:

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Thanks for clarifying this concept. In Islam, fear is categorised into different types and different words for fear with specific connotations are used in the Qur'an. Similar to what you said, we are told to fear God alone as a type of complete reverence, but natural fear of things like snakes etc. is different and not considered blameworthy. Allaah (swt) says in the Qur'an:

That is only Satan who frightens [you] of his supporters. So fear them not, but fear Me, if you are [indeed] believers. [3:175]

You mentioned that fear is not present in perfect love and that humans must strive towards achieving that perfect love, even though they may not reach it. How do you reconcile this with the other verses that teach humans to fear God? How do you reconcile these other verses with the last part of 1 John, "and he who fears is not perfected in love"?

There are many, many more verses on fear. You mentioned that "seeking his forgiveness renders their love ingenuine." I am not sure where your understanding of that comes from.

I read it on another website about Christianity. I think they were trying to say that love should be so selfless that we must not want anything in return. The author wrote that serving God to seek forgiveness would mean one has his own welfare at heart. I did find this quite far-fetched but perhaps it does not represent the belief of all Christians.

Consider the last verse I quoted above. We are told to "work out our salvation." Salvation is an ongoing process, whereby the believer must continually seek God's forgiveness. It is as I mentioned previous that most Christians do not believe in "once saved, always saved." There are those who do, and those that do would also say that if an individual continually sins following salvation, then that individual was never saved in the first place. But most do not believe that salvation is a one time act, and then the believer may live as he or she wishes following the act.

If this is the case, I would like to then ask, what was the purpose - according to Christian belief - of Jesus sacrificing himself for mankind? Christians keep saying that Jesus died for their sins, he is their saviour and so on. But if salvation is an ongoing process and forgiveness remains to be sought, does that not make Jesus' alleged death redundant?



The PM you sent me overlaps with your comments here so I'll respond to that here if that is OK:

Your post is the same reason why I have difficulty understanding when I read people say that "all muslims will go to heaven" or "it is better to be a bad muslim than not one at all." It is the same as you write about christians who think they can live as they wish and still go to heaven.

In Islam, all those who affirm the declaration of faith and do not associate any partners with God will enter Paradise eventually. However, some of these people will receive punishment before their entry into Paradise as a result of their sins (see below). There may be other understandings of this concept, but this is the explanation I am most familiar with. In that context, it is better to be a bad Muslim who commits many sins yet does not associate anything with Allaah as he can eventually be admitted into Paradise. On the other hand, if a person dies associating partners with Allaah then he has no chance of being admitted into Paradise as Allaah (swt) says:

Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin. [4:48]

And:

Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the Messiah [`Isa], son of Maryam.'' But the Messiah said: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.'' Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the wrongdoers there are no helpers. Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the third of three.'' And there is no god but One God (Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them. Will they not repent to Allah and ask His forgiveness For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. The Messiah [`Isa], son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam] was a Siddiqah. They both used to eat food. Look how We make the Ayat clear to them; yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth). [Al-Ma'idah: 72-75]

The fate of Muslims having committed sins is a matter that has been discussed in great detail and many factors are involved, such as whether the person repented before he died, the nature of the sins themselves - whether they were major or minor etc. The following link mentions some details about this. A relevant passage concerning the situation of the sinful believers reads:

People who will meet Allaah persisting in committing major sins and acts of immorality, so their bad deeds will outweigh their good deeds. These are the ones who will deserve to enter Hell in a manner commensurate with their sins. Some of them will be seized by the Fire as far as their ankles, some up to mid-calf, some up to their knees, and for some only the mark of sujood will be spared. These are the ones whom Allaah will permit to be brought forth from the Fire because of the intercession of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He, all the Prophets, the angels, the believers and whoever else Allaah wishes to honour will intercede for them. Whoever among these sinners has more faith and committed less sins will have a lighter punishment and remain in Hell for a shorter period and will be brought forth sooner. Those whose sins were greater and whose faith was weaker, will have a greater punishment and will remain for longer. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound from all evils.

Full article: http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/9924/muslims%20sins

IMO there is no "bad" muslim or "bad" christian, for one who lives as they wish is no muslim or christian at all, despite what they say from their mouth. If they truly believed what they said, it would come from their heart and show through their life and actions. A true believer would always strive to live in a manner that is pleasing to God.

Those who live in sin are not considered Christians, no matter how much their lips profess to be. There is no state of "permanent forgiveness" nor is there license to do as one wishes.

In Islam, so long as Muslims do not do anything that would put them beyond the pale of Islam, they are believers whose faith is lacking. Simply because they commit sins does not mean we can stop calling them Muslims - ultimately there is none among us who is free from sins and does not slip into error.

It is also very true that "a true believer would always strive to live in a manner that is pleasing to God". The more that a person works hard to do acts of goodness and become stronger in faith, such a person would not persist in sin and be quick to change their ways. At the same time, we must remember that people's faith is of varying levels and there are those who indulge in sin out of weakness of faith, yet they do not deserve to be cast out of Islam.

It is worth mentioning here that Allaah (swt) in His infinite mercy has made many means by which punishment for a sin may be removed and therefore a believer may not have to be punished for that deed in Hell. There are many such means, including good deeds wiping out evil ones, recognising one's sins and asking for forgiveness, and afflictions and hardships suffered in this life, in the grave and on the Day of Resurrection itself, all of which wipe away some sins. There are other means also. This is a very big topic and deserves a separate discussion for further details. One notes while studying it the perfect Justice of Allaah (swt) and His immense Mercy towards His slaves.

And also that those who walk in sin, we are not supposed to keep company with, nor are they counted as one of us. "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth."

A very beautiful hadeeth reads:

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, "None of you (truly) believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself." (Bukhari and Muslim)

One of the teachings we can derive from this hadeeth is that if a Muslim sees his brother lacking in his religion, he should strive his best to improve the plight of his brother. One of the early pious people said, "Those who love each other for the sake of Allaah look by the light of Allaah. They, for the sake of Allaah, have compassion for those who commit sins. They hate their deeds but have compassion for them. They try to change their ways by admonishing them to stop their deeds and they show pity for them to keep their bodies away from the Fire." (Quoted in Ibn Rajab, Jaami' al-Uloom wal-Hikam)

There is also another teaching in Islam about not keeping company with the immoral people so that we are not influenced by their behaviour. Both of these situations are different and therefore one is required to act according to which situation he is faced with. It is clear that everyone who sins cannot be grouped into one category.


And Allaah (swt) knows best. I hope someone will correct me if I have made any mistakes.

[Danah]

This is one of the best threads I have ever read in the comparative religions.

Thanks everyone for your great contribution!

[PouringRain]

Thanks for your reply, Muhammad. I have been meaning to reply back, but I was out of town on business and then I came back a bit under the weather. My reply will probably be brief, so I apologize in advance. I just don't want to wait too long to reply back.

You mentioned that fear is not present in perfect love and that humans must strive towards achieving that perfect love, even though they may not reach it. How do you reconcile this with the other verses that teach humans to fear God? How do you reconcile these other verses with the last part of 1 John, "and he who fears is not perfected in love"?

When it talks about he who fears is not perfected in love, it is not talking about the reverent fear of God. It is talking about not fearing in the manner that enslaves us and torments us (such as fear of something scary). The verse also talks about if you have perfect love, then you will have no fear in judgment also. This goes back to having "perfect love." God is love, and only God's love is perfect love. We can strive towards that as we grow closer to God in our walk with him and display his love to others. God "perfects" us in ways, such as through trials on earth, but it is not until after death that we become "perfect." (Similarly to how you wrote that in Heaven there is no fear nor grief. The Bible says the same thing.)

The concept of being "perfected" in love and not having fear in judgment reminds me of a thread I saw on this forum (I think it was this forum) where someone wrote about how those who have Islam in their heart, when they die and go to the judgment will know the right words to say, but those who don't will not and will not be able to fake it, because if they think they will be able to fake it then they will forget everything.

IMO a lot of the concepts between the two religions are not that different, they are just often worded and understood differently.

I read it on another website about Christianity. I think they were trying to say that love should be so selfless that we must not want anything in return. The author wrote that serving God to seek forgiveness would mean one has his own welfare at heart. I did find this quite far-fetched but perhaps it does not represent the belief of all Christians.

Pure love should be completely selfless. That is a concept that, imo, most (emphasis on most) individuals can not understand-- christian or otherwise.

As far as seeking forgiveness being selfish, no, that is not a concept that is in any way representative of Christianity. That is actually the first I have ever heard of anyone making that claim. The closest to that claim that I have encountered was in a psychological-philisophical discussion on altruism and the idea that absolutely nothing can truly be altruistic, because on some level EVERY individual receives some benefit of his or her actions. (This could be an entire thread alone. LOL) But no, the idea of not asking for forgiveness is not at all christian in nature.

If this is the case, I would like to then ask, what was the purpose - according to Christian belief - of Jesus sacrificing himself for mankind? Christians keep saying that Jesus died for their sins, he is their saviour and so on. But if salvation is an ongoing process and forgiveness remains to be sought, does that not make Jesus' alleged death redundant?

I noticed a thread recently on the forum on this topic of Jesus' sacrifice. From a Christian standpoint, Jesus was needed as the perfect lamb sacrificed for the sins of mankind.... stemming from when the Jews offered sacrifices as atonement for sins. Jesus is viewed as the parallel to Abraham offering his son as sacrifice (which is why Jesus as God's "son" became the sacrifice). But also, it is seen as being foretold in Isaiah, Psalms, and other places.

From a Jewish standpoint they would say that the messiah is never associated with a sacrifice, nor that there is a need for a human sacrifice for the atonement of sins.

Most Christians will say that the belief in Jesus' death is essential for salvation. On a personal note, I disagree with that.

But you asked if one needs to work out ones salvation and continually ask forgiveness makes his death redundant. The short answer would be no, because his death is the ultimate, ongoing sacrifice. The Jews continually sacrificed animals for atonement of sins, but Jesus' death is viewed as the final sacrifice. No other sacrifice is necessary, one only needs to ask and his sins will be forgiven. (I just wanted to note that the "asking" involves a repentance. To simply ask with an unright heart, would not be enough. God looks at the heart.)

I hope some of that makes sense, even if you don't agree. :) I know I do not always explain things very well.

In Islam, so long as Muslims do not do anything that would put them beyond the pale of Islam, they are believers whose faith is lacking. Simply because they commit sins does not mean we can stop calling them Muslims - ultimately there is none among us who is free from sins and does not slip into error.

This is the same in Christianity, but I think one thing that both religions struggle with is at what point a person has gone beyond "the pale of Islam" as you word it. Would you agree, or am I way off? It is for this reason that both religions have individuals who claim to be of that religion, yet live far outside the teachings of it, and are an embarrassment to it. There are many Christians who will tell you that it is not for us to judge, and only God knows their heart and if they are truly believers or not. I disagree, as the Bible tells us we are to be fruit inspectors. If a brother or sister sins, then we are to confront them in love. The problem that I see is in what constitutes a believer from the onset. If someone professes to be a Christian, but never displays any "fruit" and continually lives in sin, even after being confronted and shown love-- then how could we say that they are a christian? To be a christian is to be a follower of Christ, so if one never follows Christ, then can we really say that one is a christian? Likewise, would you say that all individuals who have ever said shahada or have ever accepted Islam are then muslims? There is a point where one is not a muslim. Islam has a lot written about apostacy, but in christianity you do not often see anything on that. Instead christians will often say that a person is "backslidden"-- still a christian, but fallen away and living in sin.

Would you say that there are certain, specific things that would indicate a person is no longer a muslim, or has never been one? What if, for example, an individual says shahada and then never once changes-- never prays, never repents beyond that, lives in sin, etc. Would you call that person a muslim, or at what point would you say that it was a false conversion and they are not a muslim?

It is like in the Bible where it says that even the demons believe and tremble.

There is a concept that some christians teach that involves an individual who becomes convicted within, and may even ask for forgiveness (apologize), but the individual never has a true repentance or desire to change. It is similar to the man who abuses his wife and he apologizes and has moments where he feels bad about what he does-- yet he never changes. People like that are the ones who profess faith, and becomes a "christian", but they never change nor have fruit and they continue to live in sin. There is no true conversion.

It is also very true that "a true believer would always strive to live in a manner that is pleasing to God". The more that a person works hard to do acts of goodness and become stronger in faith, such a person would not persist in sin and be quick to change their ways. At the same time, we must remember that people's faith is of varying levels and there are those who indulge in sin out of weakness of faith, yet they do not deserve to be cast out of Islam.

I agree and it is the same in christianity.

It is worth mentioning here that Allaah (swt) in His infinite mercy has made many means by which punishment for a sin may be removed and therefore a believer may not have to be punished for that deed in Hell. There are many such means, including good deeds wiping out evil ones, recognising one's sins and asking for forgiveness, and afflictions and hardships suffered in this life, in the grave and on the Day of Resurrection itself, all of which wipe away some sins. There are other means also. This is a very big topic and deserves a separate discussion for further details. One notes while studying it the perfect Justice of Allaah (swt) and His immense Mercy towards His slaves.

I think that this is one difference in Islam and Christianity: in Islam people are cleansed in fire after death and then will go to Heaven, but in christianity, most christians believe that after judgment the individual goes to heaven or hell and stays there. The Bible can actually be used to support the Islamic belief though, as it is similar in Judaism. In Revelation the Bible talks about the final judgment and that hell will be done away with. So, there is indeed indication that individuals who have been in hell previously, will then be judged and brought into heaven (or else cast for eternity into the lake of fire).

There is also another teaching in Islam about not keeping company with the immoral people so that we are not influenced by their behaviour. Both of these situations are different and therefore one is required to act according to which situation he is faced with. It is clear that everyone who sins cannot be grouped into one category.

I agree completely.


My post was longer than I anticipated. Certainly some of these things could be topics of their own, so I tried not to go into other things. (Or next you will be changing the thread title again. :giggling: )

I will say one thing. Woodrow made a good observation when he said once that not all christians (on this forum) are even representative of the majority of christians........ well, he said it much better than my paraphrase of him. :embarrass But I can say that for myself, I know that my own personal beliefs are not representative of mainstream Christianity, so when I try and explain Christian ideology, I try and do so from a very general standpoint-- one that probably most Christians would agree with-- even if it is not my own personal belief. You will notice above where I made a comment that there is something that most Christians would believe to be true, but it is not my own personal belief. I don't always share what my own personal beliefs are, because I recognize that they are not within mainstream christian thought.

[PouringRain]

I read an article the other day on fasting, so later I will edit this post and put in a couple of quotes from it, just to contribute to the "fasting" portion of this thread. :)

[revert2007]

Matthew 4:2 (King James Version)
And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

Matthew 6:16 (King James Version)
Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Matthew 17:21 (King James Version)
Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Deuteronomy 9:9 (King James Version)
When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:

Ezra 10:6 (King James Version)
Then Ezra rose up from before the house of God, and went into the chamber of Johanan the son of Eliashib: and when he came thither, he did eat no bread, nor drink water: for he mourned because of the transgression of them that had been carried away.

Esther 4:16 (King James Version)
Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.

Acts 9:9 (King James Version)
And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Acts 27:33 (King James Version)
And while the day was coming on, Paul besought them all to take meat, saying, This day is the fourteenth day that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing.

What Allah The Exalted said in The Quran

002.183 O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may (learn) selfrestraint,

002.184 (Fasting) for a fixed number of days; but if any of you is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed number (Should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (With hardship), is a ransom, the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more, of his own free will, it is better for him. And it is better for you that ye fast, if ye only knew.

002.185 Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur’an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. God intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.

002.187 Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments. God knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you; so now associate with them, and seek what God Hath ordained for you, and eat and drink, until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast Till the night appears; but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in the mosques. Those are Limits (set by) God: Approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth God make clear His Signs to men: that they may learn self restraint.

002.196 And complete the Hajj or ‘umra in the service of God. But if ye are prevented (From completing it), send an offering for sacrifice, such as ye may find, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the place of sacrifice. And if any of you is ill, or has an ailment in his scalp, (Necessitating shaving), (He should) in compensation either fast, or feed the poor, or offer sacrifice; and when ye are in peaceful conditions (again), if any one wishes to continue the ‘umra on to the hajj. He must make an offering, such as he can afford, but if he cannot afford it. He should fast three days during the hajj and seven days on his return, Making ten days in all. This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts of) the Sacred Mosque. And fear God, and know that God Is strict in punishment.