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Darth Ultor
08-06-2010, 02:24 AM
When I registered on this site, I felt spiritually lost, and was looking everywhere for a way to find God once again. This summer, I did some volunteer work with kids with cancer and got back into prayer. I found God once again, and until now, I've never realized the power of prayer and the Torah. I feel that I am right where I need to be, as a Jew. So I guess I should apologize for wasting your time with my problems and all. I am still willing to discuss Islam from an intellectual and learning perspective.
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PouringRain
08-06-2010, 02:38 AM
Do you also plan to study the Torah and your own religion? I suppose what I am asking is, are you planning to grow deeper in your own faith?
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Maryan0
08-06-2010, 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by Boaz
I found God once again, and until now, I've never realized the power of prayer and the Torah. I feel that I am right where I need to be, as a Jew. So I guess I should apologize for wasting your time with my problems and all. I am still willing to discuss Islam from an intellectual and learning perspective.
I have a question and please dont take it personally. I ask this because you seem to be the only Jewish person on this forum.
how can a religion made for a select few where it's near impossible to join be the true religion? and What happens to those that are not of the chosen people? What is the jewish stance on non-jews?
Salam
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PouringRain
08-06-2010, 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by Lisa0
I have a question and please dont take it personally. I ask this because you seem to be the only Jewish person on this forum.
how can a religion made for a select few where it's near impossible to join be the true religion? and What happens to those that are not of the chosen people? What is the jewish stance on non-jews?
Salam
Can I reply even though your question is for Boaz? :) (He can answer also. )

The Jews actually believe it is more difficult for a Jew, because a Jew must keep all the laws and be the example. They believe that they are held to a higher standard. That is also partly why they make it difficult for someone to convert. They do not want false conversion and they want an individual to be certain that they are ready to commit themselves to that standard. (Another reason is because for them being "jewish" has to do with the soul, and the individual must be able to have a deep empathy and identification with the Jewish people as a whole.)

For a non-Jew, a gentile, an individual can be a "righteous gentile" or noahide. A noahide can also obtain eternal life and a place in the "world to come." Here is only one article that talks about this.
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Darth Ultor
08-06-2010, 03:14 AM
Lisa: Jews don't claim to be the one true faith. We don't preach that you need to be one of us in order please God. A rabbi generally discourages people from joining because we want to make sure people want to fully embrace our faith and all that comes with it (tradition more than anything). It's not that difficult to join, people just need to join for the right reasons. Then one needs to take classes of course, just like when you join any religion that you were not born into. For example, a woman would not be able to go to a more orthodox rabbi and ask him to convert her just because she wants to marry a Jewish man, she really needs to want to embrace the faith. As for non-Jews, we believe that everybody has favor in God's eyes if they are faithful and do good unto others, not just us. That everyone is born pure, and after reaching a certain age (13 for boys, 12 for girls), his or her sins and good deeds begin to count on their record. Our main goal in life is to earn a good place in the world to come. I'm not sure about atheism, but it's very important to purge any thoughts about there not being a God from our minds. I'm not a scholar, so I am not entirely sure about this, but non-Jews who believe in God have several basic laws to follow, whereas Jews have 613, a lot more. He have our own articles of faith that one must accept, the most important being absolutely monotheism. If you want it explained in short, I can summarize it in a quote from Rabbi Hillel who was asked by a non-Jew to explain it while standing on one leg: "Do unto others what you want done unto yourself. The rest is explanation."

Rain: I hope to this year.

Edit: Rain explained it better
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glo
08-06-2010, 12:16 PM
Continue to walk with God, Boaz.
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Salahudeen
08-06-2010, 03:09 PM
Glad you find comfort in prayer, if I'm not mistaken the way an orthodox Jew prays is similar to how Muslims' pray right? this leads me to believe the source of Judaism comes from the same source as Islam.

How many times do you have to pray a day 3? I know prayer was legislated for the ummah of Moses because when our prophet met him on the night journey Moses told him to ask God to reduce the prayers because his ummah wouldn't be able to handle 50 prayers a day. Moses said " I have experienced mankind and they will not be able to handle 50 prayers go and ask your Lord to reduce it" So I'm wondering how many times a day do you have to pray? :p
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Darth Ultor
08-06-2010, 04:03 PM
We have three strongly recommended prayers a day. Shacharit (morning) which is the longest and on the sabbath and holidays there is a late morning prayer afterwards called Mussaf, Mincha (any time after midday to sunset), and Arvit (evening). The last two are rather short. Yom Kippur, however has more. We spend all day in a synagogue praying if we can. One can pray alone on that day, but it's strongly recommended to pray in a congregation. It's similar to how Muslims pray in the sense that people do their best not to miss it. We do have ablutions, but these are to sanctify certain days. But of course we keep ourselves clean in prayer, dress decently, and separate men and women. But what I don't understand is why we keep our shoes on. Is the removal of the shoes more of a cultural thing?
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PouringRain
08-06-2010, 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by Boaz
But what I don't understand is why we keep our shoes on. Is the removal of the shoes more of a cultural thing?
I don't know if this is accurate or not...... (Maybe someone here can verify?)

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/69793

This website says:

Quote: "There is a dispute about the ruling on entering the mosque in shoes and praying in shoes. What is the Islamic ruling on that?

They replied:

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) entered the mosque in shoes and prayed in shoes. Abu Dawood narrated in his Sunan with his isnaad that Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri said: Whilst the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was leading his companions in prayer, he took off his shoes and placed them to his left. When the people saw that, they took off their shoes. When the Messenger of Allaah had finished the prayer he said, “What made you take off your shoes?” They said, “We saw you take off your shoes, so we took off our shoes.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Jibreel (peace be upon him) came to me and told me that there was some dirt on them.” And he said: “When one of you comes to the mosque, let him check his shoes, and if he seeds any dirt on them, let him wipe them and pray in them.”

Abu Dawood also narrated from Ya’la ibn Shaddaad ibn Aws that his father said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Be different from the Jews, for they do not pray in their shoes or their khufoof (leather slippers).”

And Abu Dawood narrated from ‘Amr ibn Shu’ayb, from his father, that his grandfather said: I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) praying both barefoot and wearing shoes. This was also narrated by Ibn Maajah.

But now that mosques are usually furnished with fine carpets, the one who enters the mosque should take off his shoes and be careful to keep the carpet clean and not annoy other worshippers because of dirt that may get onto the carpet from the soles of his shoes, even if it is taahir (pure). "




And then the website went on to discuss it more and continued to say that one can pray with or without shoes, but the shoes must be clean.

P.S. I learned something new today by your question as well. :)
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aadil77
08-06-2010, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by Boaz
But what I don't understand is why we keep our shoes on. Is the removal of the shoes more of a cultural thing?
Was prophet Musa not commanded to take off his shoes when he was standing infront of Allah in the sacret valley?

And when he came to it (the fire), he was called by name: "O Mûsa (Moses)! (11) "Verily! I am your Lord! So take off your shoes, you are in the sacred valley, Tuwa. (12) "And I have chosen you. So listen to that which will be revealed (to you). (13) "Verily! I am Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Ana (none has the right to be worshipped but I), so worship Me, and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât) for My Remembrance. (Qur'an, 20: 11-14)
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PouringRain
08-06-2010, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
Was prophet Musa not commanded to take off his shoes when he was standing infront of Allah in the sacret valley?
That is what I always think of also when it comes to taking off ones shoes for prayer. :)


Could you tell us if the link I posted above provides accurate info.?
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Insaanah
08-06-2010, 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by Boaz
But what I don't understand is why we keep our shoes on. Is the removal of the shoes more of a cultural thing?
Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) was commanded to remove his shoes by God.

And He said (to Moses) "Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground."-(EXODUS 3:5, also ACTS 7:33).

Originally Posted by aadil77
And when he came to it (the fire), he was called by name: "O Mûsa (Moses)! (11) "Verily! I am your Lord! So take off your shoes, you are in the sacred valley, Tuwa. (12) "And I have chosen you. So listen to that which will be revealed (to you). (13) "Verily! I am Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Ana (none has the right to be worshipped but I), so worship Me, and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât) for My Remembrance. (Qur'an, 20: 11-14)
Peace.
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aadil77
08-06-2010, 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by PouringRain
That is what I always think of also when it comes to taking off ones shoes for prayer. :)


Could you tell us if the link I posted above provides accurate info.?
Islam QA is a very reliable website
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PouringRain
08-07-2010, 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
Islam QA is a very reliable website
Thank you. :)
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Asiyah3
08-07-2010, 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by Boaz
When I registered on this site, I felt spiritually lost, and was looking everywhere for a way to find God once again. This summer, I did some volunteer work with kids with cancer and got back into prayer. I found God once again, and until now, I've never realized the power of prayer and the Torah. I feel that I am right where I need to be, as a Jew. So I guess I should apologize for wasting your time with my problems and all. I am still willing to discuss Islam from an intellectual and learning perspective.
Peace Boaz,

This is about your choice according to Allah's will. We don't benefit in any ways from your faith, religion or deeds. Having said that did you not see a dream/sign from Allah?

May Allah guide you to the path of success.
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Maryan0
08-07-2010, 01:15 AM
Thank you for the replies Pouring Rain and Boaz. I dont know much about the Jewish faith.
Anyways those are interesting explanations. But do non Jews achieve the same level as Jews in the next life or are the Jews one step ahead? Do Jews and non Jews both end up in the same place? and since in order to become Jewish a non-Jew would have to to prove their worth and their dedication shouldnt the same be applied to Jewish people also. They just had the privilage of being born Jewish they didnt have to work for it. Can those Jews who are not dedicated and worthy be expelled from Judaism? and what made jewish people the chosen people as opposed to other people? In Islam Allah bestowed upon the bani-israel a great deal of favours but they earned the wrath of Allah when they became boastful, arrogant and went astray. Do you not think that due to all the prophets sent to the bani-israel that they should have taken as a warning instead of taking as we were chosen by god?
Salam
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Darth Ultor
08-07-2010, 01:45 AM
Jews and and non-Jews do end up in the same place. Those born into Judaism I think have a greater obligation to the laws. If one goes astray, there is no excommunication. In ancient times, there used to be a temporary banishment of seven days for the person to purify him or herself if it was not severe enough to warrant execution. I'm not too well learned on the subject. We were chosen because we accepted the Torah without question, and if the sin of the golden calf never took place, things would be a lot better these days. We went astray several times, and we have and are suffering for it.
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PouringRain
08-07-2010, 02:01 AM
Originally Posted by Lisa0
Thank you for the replies Pouring Rain and Boaz. I dont know much about the Jewish faith.
Anyways those are interesting explanations. But do non Jews achieve the same level as Jews in the next life or are the Jews one step ahead? Do Jews and non Jews both end up in the same place?
It is said they will "share in the world to come." What this means in exact, specific terms, I do not know nor have I read anything on it. Jews are not as concerned with the afterlife as Muslims and Christians are, so it is possible that even they have not thought this out. (The second part of that was sort of a joke.:giggling: But the first part is true that they do not focus on it the way muslims and christians do.) *shrug* Sorry I could not give you a better answer to this part.


Originally Posted by Lisa0
and since in order to become Jewish a non-Jew would have to to prove their worth and their dedication shouldnt the same be applied to Jewish people also. They just had the privilage of being born Jewish they didnt have to work for it.
To the Jew, they believe that it is actually more difficult for them. This is because they have 613 laws (although not all 613 apply to every individual. Some apply only to males and some only to females.). But the noahide only has 7 laws to follow. The Jew believes that he should be the example. An orthodox Jew, for example, is not even supposed to step into a non-kosher restaurant in order to use the bathroom, because the appearance of him being in there could be misconstrued. Or if an orthodox woman makes a meat dish with almond milk (since they can not mix meat with dairy), then she must place almonds on the dish so that the "milk" will be known as almond and not give the appearance that she mixed milk with dairy. So, you can see where it can be extremely strict for them.

Unfortunately, what most people see is not the Orthodox Jews and how they live, but the vast number of liberal Jews who simply wear their religion, rather than fully living it. (My statement is not intended to offend any non-ortho Jews, as there are "good" Jews even outside of the Orthodox.) And it is also unfortunate that there is hypocrisy and wrong even within the Orthodox community that many see. When an Orthodox says things like it is forbidden by law for him to even dial 911 on the sabbath if he sees a gentile dying in the street, then it can cast an ugly stain on their religion, and imo it is obvious why Jesus was pointing his finger at the hypocrisy within those who practice the religion. (Again, I am not calling all Jews hypocrites.) The point I am making, to answer your question, is yes the Jews are also held to a standard and in fact they believe they are held to a higher standard. The problem is that you get individuals within their religion, just as within all religions, who cast an ugly stain on it.

Originally Posted by Lisa0
Can those Jews who are not dedicated and worthy be expelled from Judaism?
A Jew by birth is always deemed a Jew no matter how sinful he is. In this sense, being Jewish is similar to "race" and is not just religion. So, he could never be "expelled." As far as what happens to him.... there are differing opinions, and this goes back to differing views on the afterlife in Judaism. Some believe in reincarnation and that a "bad" Jew will be born over and over again until he gets it right. A "bad" Jew could even be born into a gentile body until he can rectify himself. But I would say that reincarnation as a belief is probably within the minority opinion. Jews, similar to Muslims, also believe in a purification by fire after death. Perhaps a very bad Jew is purified longer and greater?

Originally Posted by Lisa0
and what made jewish people the chosen people as opposed to other people?
I once saw a Jew say, "Chosen people? Chosen for what?" And then go into a long explanation of all the laws and all the burdens placed upon the Jew. (He was an Orthodox Jew.) To listen to some Jews, it sounds almost like a burden placed upon them. They were "chosen" to carry this burden-- they did not choose to carry it. To find out why God originally "chose" them you would have to study the Torah. The explanation is very long.... very long.... otherwise I'd write it out here. LOL

If you look later in the Bible, in Jeremiah 3, God issues a certificate of divorce to Israel, because she "played the harlot." And then he called the people back to repentance. All through the Bible we see the prophets calling the people back to repentance. In the NT when Jesus said he came first to the Jew (and then to the gentile) the significance of that was once again God calling the people back to him. This is one reason Jesus pointed out the hypocrisy so much. Of course, many did not come back to repentance and we see where Jesus is rejected by the Jews. There are actually two main differences in Christian opinion on the Jews when it comes to their rejection of Jesus.... replacement and grafting. Some Christians still see Jews as the chosen and believe Christians are grafted into the vine and must support Jews no matter what. Other Christians believe Christians replaced Jews as God's people, because the Jews rejected Jesus, and so they are no longer in the fold unless they accept Jesus. (There are other beliefs, but those are two main ones.)


Originally Posted by Lisa0
In Islam Allah bestowed upon the bani-israel a great deal of favours but they earned the wrath of Allah when they became boastful, arrogant and went astray. Do you not think that due to all the prophets sent to the bani-israel that they should have taken as a warning instead of taking as we were chosen by god?
Salam
I guess your last questions were kinda answered by my previous answer also. Except that I did not give my own personal opinion on the matter. :p (I do not often give my own personal opinions. LOL)

To answer your question: I think that the Jews should heed the warnings and messages of the prophets, and turn from their wicked ways, and come back to God. But.... I am not going to say the Jews as a whole, because I do believe that there are Jews who do live in a right relationship with God. Personally, I believe that if a man is already living in a right manner, then he is not the one who is the subject of the prophet's messages (any prophet), because the prophets come to bring the people back who have gone astray. This does not mean that all people have gone astray, but usually when we see a prophet being given a message to call a people back to repentance, it is a great number of the people needing the message. So, the message is for most, but not for all, and a small number would still be following already. If you walked in a room of teen girls during a slumber party and told them to get to sleep and quit giggling-- your message would only apply to the girls who are still awake and giggling. Those who had already fallen asleep earlier are already doing what you are instructing them to do.... for example.

So, yes, I agree that all people, Jews and non-Jews, should be careful not to think of themselves as "chosen" and fall into pride, thinking that they can live as they want and will always be held in grace. We should all humble ourselves before God and before each other. (Now you have my personal opinion. :p )
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Maryan0
08-07-2010, 03:00 AM
Thanks very much for the informative replies Pouring Rain and Boaz
Salam
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