Trinity led me to Islam

[da32010]

The Trinity Led Me to Islam



An Irish Dentist Embraces Islam


My name is Roger Hadden, and I am originally from Dungannon in Northern Ireland. I am a dentist currently working in England. I have lived in Northern Ireland and Scotland, and I am now based in England. I was raised as a Christian, and my parents are born-again Christians.

Although I was raised with the teachings of the Bible, I did not particularly adhere to its principles. I suppose I was like most British youth, in that I liked to have fun but maybe didn't know where the limits were set.


While I did not practice any religion, I always believed that there was a God. I was scientifically minded, but realized that acknowledging there was a Big Bang did not necessarily rule out the possibility of there being a God who controlled and planned this event.


We could not have come out of nothing, and we did not create ourselves, so we must have been created. I thought about God from time to time, but it never had a real impact on my heart. My first encounter with Islam I suppose was the media, but I tend not to judge people or things until I see or find out about them myself and hear both sides of the story.


When I went to university I met many Muslims. At that time we discussed religion a little, but I was not seriously thinking about becoming religious. My desires were too strong, so I just wanted to enjoy myself.


At that time, I knew that at some stage I would want to change my ways and become a Christian. I then would also want to find out about other religions and understand what makes people believe in them. When I was in final year at university, I made plans to reform myself and become as my parents, a "born-again Christian". So I started my research with reading the Bible.


The concept of the Trinity always bothered me, and it was my main aim to understand it. I remember as a child wanting to ask God for something. I was not sure whether to pray to God or to pray to Jesus. I decided to pray to God as I knew if He created everything, then He will hear me and help me.


I spoke to some ministers, and several attempts were made to explain the Trinity. None of them convinced me. I continued to read the Bible, searching for the truth.


Obviously I am not a scholar in the Christian religion but the Trinity issue bugged me. Why did the Old Testament prophets all pray to God and do righteous acts hoping for God's forgiveness? Who did Jesus pray to?


There was no mention of the Trinity in the Old Testament, and many argue none in the New Testament. I knew God did not change, so there was a problem somewhere. I spoke to my friends at University. Some were Sikhs, Catholics, atheists, and some were Muslims.


My conversion changed my life completely, and looking back I know I made the correct decision


When I found out that Islam commands the worship of One God, and not to make any partners with Him, I was very interested. I continued reading the Bible and Christian sources but also started reading some Islamic books.

I read that Muslims believe that God sent his message to mankind through different prophets since Adam the first man. All the prophets believed in only One God and they also believed that there was going to be a day of reckoning when everyone will be raised and judged.


I realized that this is what I believe, and what I thought the Bible was saying to me. I discussed things with my parents, and they were not too impressed. Within a couple of months by the grace of God I became a Muslim.


My conversion changed my life completely, and looking back, I know I made the correct decision, thank God. Instead of living my life in a selfish way pleasing my desires, I try now to help others and please my Lord. I have now been a Muslim for five years and I am still learning new and amazing things about the religion.


Every time I hear something "negative" about the religion, I get the issue explained to me and it turns out to be a very positive and beautiful thing. I am continuing to learn Arabic and the Quran.


In my career it has made me much more focused, and I now desire to do everything to my best ability. My friends at university are often surprised with regards to my change, especially relating to dentistry.


My parents believed I was brainwashed, and many of my friends thought, and still think, it is just a phase. As it has been over five years now, my parents know it is not just a phase.


I first told my parents that I was thinking of becoming a Muslim, and they told me that it was a "hate religion" and that I should not do it. We talked about it for a while, and as I was convinced, I was sure I had to do it. I did not want to be punished in the next life.


A few months later I took the best step and embraced Islam. The same day my Dad bought me a car, not as a conversion gift, rather, it was his kindness and it just happened to be on the same day.


Since university, I have always lived away from my parents but I try to visit them a couple of times a year. Overall though, I feel my relationship with my parents has improved, as I try to be good to them as God commands in the Quran.


I have moved on from university and lost contact with many of my friends, some I speak to now and again, but as with life, we keep moving on and old friends we see less of and new friends are made.


I am currently working as a dentist in the UK. I am working and doing a part time masters program. I am learning Arabic, and I regularly attend Islamic talks and seminars in order to increase my knowledge.


I am married to a very special lady and we have, by the grace of God a beautiful 1-year-
old boy named Ismael (Ishmael from the Bible). We are trying to improve as Muslims, and we would like to travel abroad to a Muslim country. Ideally we would both love to study Islam to a higher level, so we are looking for opportunities to fulfill this dream.


By Roger Hadden

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Roger,

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for sharing your story,

In the spirit of searching for the One God who hears all our prayers, despite our differences.

Eric

[Perseveranze]

Every time I hear something "negative" about the religion, I get the issue explained to me and it turns out to be a very positive and beautiful thing. I am continuing to learn Arabic and the Quran.

So true. Never let a seed of doubt grow, if there is any doubt, question it, question people who would truly know about it more then yourself in regards to Islam (don't ask someone who mixes culture with Islam, because that's completly wrong, there is only 1 Islam and the message was sent for all of mankind). And in the end, trust me you'll find great enlightenment and realise how twisted blinded people have of this beautiful religion.

[Muhaba]

Brother Hadden, it's great to hear that you found the truth. congratulations.

If you want to study Arabic and Islam, then Syria may be right for you. A lot of foreigners study here. there are many arabic courses in Syria. the ones offered by Damascus University are a bit expensive, a 1 month course costs about 200 pounds (16000 Syrian pounds ) a month. there are 4 levels in this course (each 1 month long). Then there's the Arabic Course for non-arabic speakers Institute (commonly known as ma'had lil Ajaanib , which means Institute for non-Arabs). This institute offers 6 levels and each level lasts 2.5 months. the cost for each level is about 250 pounds (17500 Syrian pounds). This institute has many foreigners and it has a non-religious environment. Courses are mixed so men and women study together. The course standard is very good and they mainly focus on spoken Arabic.

A third option is Shaikh Ahmed Kaftaro institute (commonly known as jama' Abu Noor). It offers 6 levels, each lasting 2 months. EAch level costs approximately 80 pounds (5500 Syrian Pounds). The course standard is pretty good but they focus more on grammar and reading than on spoken arabic. Here the environment is more religious and classes are not mixed, so men and women study in separate classes. They also provide accomodation to students for very low cost, however their accomodation isn't for couples but they can help students find separate housing if anyone wants to live separately.

A fourth option is AlFatah institute. They also give 6 levels in Arabic study, each level lasting about 2.5 months. Each level costs 70 pounds (5000 Syrian Pounds) but their study standard is lower than the Abu Noor standard and they focus more on spoken, but do teach grammar as well. They also may exempt students from paying fees because their main aim is to prepare students for their college program.

Damascus university, Abu Noor, and Alfatah College all provide bachelor degree and masters degree courses in Islamic Studies, Arabic, etc. Abu Noor's rates are the lowest while Damascus university rates are the highest. Abu Noor charges approximately 250 pounds per year, Al Fatah college charges approximately 400 pounds for some courses and about 600 for other courses (30000 to 40000 Syrian Pounds), while Damascus university charges nearly 3000 pounds per year (200,000 Syrian Pounds), but their University is accredited and recognized all over the world. However, the university is mixed while the other two have separate colleges for men and women.

Living expenses in Syria are also low. A good apartment costs less than 300 pounds per month and household and electricity expenses are low. however, one needs to beware of cheaters, as there are landlords who try to make tenants pay very high electricity and phone bills, bills that aren't the tenants own. Since these bills are lower than what you'd pay in England and other more advanced countries, therefore tenants don't realize that there's a fraud. Another problem is that bills come nearly 4 months after the billing month so it's possible that you will be made to pay someone elses bill, or that you'll pay someone's winter bill in the summer if you aren't aware of this. Winter electricity bills are much higher than summer ones since you need to use heating to keep the house warm, because winters can get really cold. Most days in the summer you won't need an airconditioner, although the month of august can become really hot and an airconditioner will be required.

I hope the above information is helpful.

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[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

That was a really beautiful story, Jazakallahu Khaayr for sharing it.

Masha`Allaah

[marwen]

Nice story ! jazaka Allaho Khayran.

Bro da32010, is that your personal reversion story ? or you're reporting another brother's story ?
Anyway, that was really beneficial. Baraka Allahu feek.

[Danah]

MashaAllah amazing story! Thanks for sharing
May Allah keep us all steadfast in the right path

[serena77]

Peace to all
thank you for sharing this story. n many ways it is the trinity that is keeping me on my path.... f searching at this point... i'm reading as much as i can..... sadly not enough hours in a day ... untl my laptop is repaired i can spend very little time on the board and that causes a very lonely feeling.
Serena

[bibleblevr]

Mind If I take a crack at explianing the trinity to you?

Lets get something out of the way real quick, there is one God, he has no parts. Now on with my explaination.

Imagine that you are looking at a rock, This rock has a structure that is defined and made of stone. It exists in the most real and basic way. Plato would call this a "thing" Now as I asked you to imagine the rock, you have a picture in you mind (Or maybe you are looking a a rock right now, even better), and a full understanding of what a rock is, it's shape feel, smell, and taste even. Everything about the rock is summed up this image you see and understand. Plato would call this the "Sign". The sign owns it's existence to the existence of the thing, therefore the sign is dependent on the thing, even though it is the same item. If you are looking at the rock, I would ask you what you see, You could respond, that you see the rock(Thing) which is true in the sense that you have seen it by comprehending the thing of the the thing. However, as we know, when a human sees an item, they don't see it, but rather the light that comes from the object, betraying it's sign.

The Trinity is the same thing. The Father is the thing, the structure, and the existence, scripture calls him the great "I Am". The Son is the sign he is called the image of the invisible God, and is also called God's "Logos" He is the father's word and the fathers full representation, but nevertheless, he is said to be begotten, because even though he has always existed, his existence is dependent on the father's. Finally, there is the Holy spirit, he is the light by which a man can comprehend God, and He is how we see Jesus the "Logos" who is the father. Even as the light carries the image of the rock, the Holy Spirit proceeds form both the father and the son, and faithfully betrays God.

[جوري]

I am married to a very special lady and we have, by the grace of God a beautiful 1-year- old boy named Ismael (Ishmael from the Bible). We are trying to improve as Muslims, and we would like to travel abroad to a Muslim country. Ideally we would both love to study Islam to a higher level, so we are looking for opportunities to fulfill this dream.

Masha'Allah, such a heartwarming inspirational story.. May Allah swt guide you and keep you steadfast on the path of the righteous..


:w:

[Woodrow]

Mind If I take a crack at explianing the trinity to you?

Lets get something out of the way real quick, there is one God, he has no parts. Now on with my explaination.

Imagine that you are looking at a rock, This rock has a structure that is defined and made of stone. It exists in the most real and basic way. Plato would call this a "thing" Now as I asked you to imagine the rock, you have a picture in you mind (Or maybe you are looking a a rock right now, even better), and a full understanding of what a rock is, it's shape feel, smell, and taste even. Everything about the rock is summed up this image you see and understand. Plato would call this the "Sign". The sign owns it's existence to the existence of the thing, therefore the sign is dependent on the thing, even though it is the same item. If you are looking at the rock, I would ask you what you see, You could respond, that you see the rock(Thing) which is true in the sense that you have seen it by comprehending the thing of the the thing. However, as we know, when a human sees an item, they don't see it, but rather the light that comes from the object, betraying it's sign.

The Trinity is the same thing. The Father is the thing, the structure, and the existence, scripture calls him the great "I Am". The Son is the sign he is called the image of the invisible God, and is also called God's "Logos" He is the father's word and the fathers full representation, but nevertheless, he is said to be begotten, because even though he has always existed, his existence is dependent on the father's. Finally, there is the Holy spirit, he is the light by which a man can comprehend God, and He is how we see Jesus the "Logos" who is the father. Even as the light carries the image of the rock, the Holy Spirit proceeds form both the father and the son, and faithfully betrays God.

However in the trinity each name is a very separate person. This is not about a description of attributes it is about 3 seperate personalities each with it's own identity.

Just for example The Role of the Father is essentially the creator and the destroyer. Not even the Son or the Holy Spirit know all of his intentions or plans. For example the Father alone knows when will occur the Day of Judgment. Not even the son knows when this will be.

You have three distinct unconnected beings.

[Muhaba]

i remember someone telling me it was like water, ice, and water vapor. so i told them that if you drank the water, then there wouldn't be ice or water vapor. likewise, if Jesus and God were one, then when Jesus died, God would also be dead, and so would the holy ghost. for one to be dead and the other to be alive means they aren't the same one being.

[bibleblevr]

However in the trinity each name is a very separate person. This is not about a description of attributes it is about 3 seperate personalities each with it's own identity.

Just for example The Role of the Father is essentially the creator and the destroyer. Not even the Son or the Holy Spirit know all of his intentions or plans. For example the Father alone knows when will occur the Day of Judgment. Not even the son knows when this will be.

You have three distinct unconnected beings.

Christianity does not teach that the three parts have three separate personalities nor that they are unconnected beings, they are all God and there is only one God.

The day of judgment is more importantly the day when Christians believe the bride of Christ (The church) will be wed to her husband. In Jewish culture, the wedding time was only known by the father of the groom, when he decided the wedding would begin the groom would go to the brides house in the night, and without warning bring her and the others in the wedding party back to have the ceremony. The statement that Only the Father knows, is an illusion to Jewish wedding customs which Jesus often eluded to. We see another of his elutions, in one of the most famous of all Christian ceremonies, communion. The Jewish man would offer a woman a cup of wine instead of a ring like in western culture as a proposal. If the woman drank, then it was accepting the proposal, this is what he did at the last supper. Does Jesus know when the last days will be? Yes, but In the same way the psalms tells us God forces himself to forget our sins, Jesus can remain ignorance by force of will.

[Ramadhan]

Seriously, do you guys have some sort of creative writing competition in church in "how to explain trinity in the most wordy and elaborate way"?

I mean, your story here is the latest folly attempt at explaining trinity.
You should move it to : http://www.islamicboard.com/creative-writing-art/
Maybe it will make more sense there.

Mind If I take a crack at explianing the trinity to you?

Lets get something out of the way real quick, there is one God, he has no parts. Now on with my explaination.

Imagine that you are looking at a rock, This rock has a structure that is defined and made of stone. It exists in the most real and basic way. Plato would call this a "thing" Now as I asked you to imagine the rock, you have a picture in you mind (Or maybe you are looking a a rock right now, even better), and a full understanding of what a rock is, it's shape feel, smell, and taste even. Everything about the rock is summed up this image you see and understand. Plato would call this the "Sign". The sign owns it's existence to the existence of the thing, therefore the sign is dependent on the thing, even though it is the same item. If you are looking at the rock, I would ask you what you see, You could respond, that you see the rock(Thing) which is true in the sense that you have seen it by comprehending the thing of the the thing. However, as we know, when a human sees an item, they don't see it, but rather the light that comes from the object, betraying it's sign.

The Trinity is the same thing. The Father is the thing, the structure, and the existence, scripture calls him the great "I Am". The Son is the sign he is called the image of the invisible God, and is also called God's "Logos" He is the father's word and the fathers full representation, but nevertheless, he is said to be begotten, because even though he has always existed, his existence is dependent on the father's. Finally, there is the Holy spirit, he is the light by which a man can comprehend God, and He is how we see Jesus the "Logos" who is the father. Even as the light carries the image of the rock, the Holy Spirit proceeds form both the father and the son, and faithfully betrays God.

[Woodrow]

Christianity does not teach that the three parts have three separate personalities nor that they are unconnected beings, they are all God and there is only one God.

Are you sure you understand Christianity?

Do you not worship Jesus(as) with separate prayers and teach that the "Way to the Father, is through the Son"?

Do you not believe Jesus(as) is the only "Begotten Son of God(swt)?

Do you not believe Jesus(as) died and was resurrected? This alone separates Jesus(as) as a separate being from the Father as the Father is eternal and did not die.

What is taught in the "Apostles Creed"? (Using the Protestant Version)

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead;

He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;

Sure enough sounds like a separate Being. And that is after 7 centuries of refining the prayer from the second to 9th centuries to get it to appear to be more in line with the Trinity being one God(swt) The earlier versions were a bit more, shall we say separatist

The Earliest known version is the Latin "Symbolum Apostolorum" Which at least 3 versions exist. Notice the lack of mentioning of the "Holy Ghost" The concept of trinity was still forming and Christianity was at a Dualism not quite being Trinitarian yet.

THE OLD ROMAN CREED
AS QUOTED BY TERTULLIAN (c. 200)
De Virg. Vel., 1
(1) Believing in one God Almighty, maker of the world,
(2) and His Son, Jesus Christ,
(3) born of the Virgin Mary,
(4) crucified under Pontius Pilate,
(5) on the third day brought to life from the dead,
(6) received in heaven,
(7) sitting now at the right hand of the Father,
(8) will come to judge the living and the dead
(9) through resurrection of the flesh.

.

The teaching of a Trinity took a lot of creative writing over several Centuries. It was a hard concept to sell and rewrite to sound plausible.

[Hugo]

Do you not worship Jesus(as) with separate prayers and teach that the "Way to the Father, is through the Son"?
Do you not believe Jesus(as) is the only "Begotten Son of God(swt)?
Do you not believe Jesus(as) died and was resurrected? This alone separates Jesus(as) as a separate being from the Father as the Father is eternal and did not die.

But none of this precludes the oneness of God does it? One cannot explain of course how there can be one in three and three in one and we can only use analogies such as when I am at work I am person X when at home person Y and when ..... But my question to you is do you reject the trinity, lets call it a concept because you don't understand it or is there some other reason?

[YusufNoor]

Mind If I take a crack at explianing the trinity to you?

Lets get something out of the way real quick, there is one God, he has no parts. Now on with my explaination.

and YET, you will be explaining those "parts" below! :p


Imagine that you are looking at a rock, This rock has a structure that is defined and made of stone. It exists in the most real and basic way.

as rock is a rock! a rock is not God and God is not a rock!

Plato would call this a "thing" Now as I asked you to imagine the rock, you have a picture in you mind (Or maybe you are looking a a rock right now, even better), and a full understanding of what a rock is, it's shape feel, smell, and taste even. Everything about the rock is summed up this image you see and understand. Plato would call this the "Sign".

Plato was a Pagan! as such, he had NO IDEA as to how God operates. Philosophy is trying to guess whereas Revelation is God actually informing us! why do do prefer pagan concepts of God?


The sign owns it's existence to the existence of the thing, therefore the sign is dependent on the thing, even though it is the same item. If you are looking at the rock, I would ask you what you see, You could respond, that you see the rock(Thing) which is true in the sense that you have seen it by comprehending the thing of the the thing. However, as we know, when a human sees an item, they don't see it, but rather the light that comes from the object, betraying it's sign.

a rock is a rock, even charlie Brown knows that!

The Trinity is the same thing. The Father is the thing, the structure, and the existence, scripture calls him the great "I Am".

actually, your gospels said that Jesus said that about himself

The Son is the sign he is called the image of the invisible God, and is also called God's "Logos" He is the father's word and the fathers full representation, but nevertheless, he is said to be begotten, because even though he has always existed, his existence is dependent on the father's.

actually, the idea of "the logos" comes from pagan Philosophy. and a god that is dependent upon another god can only be a junior god or not even a god really. and IF you always have 2 or more gods, then you were NEVER monotheists.

Finally, there is the Holy spirit, he is the light by which a man can comprehend God, and He is how we see Jesus the "Logos" who is the father. Even as the light carries the image of the rock, the Holy Spirit proceeds form both the father and the son, and faithfully betrays God.

actually, the holy spirit in Christian art is always portrayed as a bird! one of your gods is a bird! and why does he "betray God?"

One cannot explain of course how there can be one in three and three in one

just stop right there. no further explanation called for!;D

Peace

[جوري]

Plato was a Pagan! as such, he had NO IDEA as to how God operates. Philosophy is trying to guess whereas Revelation is God actually informing us! why do do prefer pagan concepts of God?

pagan religions often draw from pagan philosophies.. they can't be separated for the obvious reasons.
but I knew you asked that question in rhetoric..

actually, the holy spirit in Christian art is always portrayed as a bird! one of your gods is a bird! and why does he "betray God?"

nice so that leaves us with the other two, one lamb and one lion..;D

:w:

[YusufNoor]

pagan religions often draw from pagan philosophies.. they can't be separated for the obvious reasons.
but I knew you asked that question in rhetoric..



nice so that leaves us with the other two, one lamb and one lion..;D

:w:

:sl:

well, yes and no!

there is an ENORMOUS amount of Pagan philosophy that has entered not only into Christianity, but into Judaism and in some corners "what some folks call Islam." for my simple brain, IT MAKES NO SENSE WHAT SO EVER!

Philosophy, while having it's origin with learned men, in STILL men trying to "understand" things using tools that men acquire, such as "knowledge." men try to "decipher" morality and "goodness,"

WHY?

IF God has told you what He wants from you and expects from you, where does the guesswork come in? we KNOW exactly what God WANTED us to know and IF we haven't been told something, then we DON'T NEED to know it!

we see atheists sometimes ask the question, "can God create a stone too big for him to lift?" IMHO, the "Christian' response to that question, NOT the Islamic one, is...YES! Christians claim that Jesus was/is God and yet "he" NEVER explained this trinity in a way that anyone can understand it? OF COURSE there is no FACTUAL or CONTEMPORANEOUS evidence of a trinity in Jesus' teachings, but if it was suppose to be a belief, he simply failed here. there are writings in which the apostles call Jesus "teacher," well, how come he couldn't explain it. and if you try to tell m that "God" can't explain it...then it CAN'T be god now, can it?

i mean, i can't explain physics, does that make me a scientist? or better still, the "creator" of physics? OBVIOUSLY NOT, so why isn't the other obvious? [to "Christians"]

:wa:

[جوري]

i mean, i can't explain physics, does that make me a scientist? or better still, the "creator" of physics? OBVIOUSLY NOT, so why isn't the other obvious? [to "Christians"]

God's message to the people should be for lay and brilliant alike, not an exclusive club for a few Illuminati (not that a table of renowned theologians can break down this conundrum) and faith without thought is ludicrous. One is simply better off an atheist..

:w:

[bibleblevr]

Seriously, do you guys have some sort of creative writing competition in church in "how to explain trinity in the most wordy and elaborate way"?

HA HA HA ;D It may seem That way that way some times :)

[bibleblevr]

Are you sure you understand Christianity?

Do you not worship Jesus(as) with separate prayers and teach that the "Way to the Father, is through the Son"?

Do you not believe Jesus(as) is the only "Begotten Son of God(swt)?

Do you not believe Jesus(as) died and was resurrected? This alone separates Jesus(as) as a separate being from the Father as the Father is eternal and did not die.

Yes I do believe all that. Just because God can make a full expression of himself through the form of one of the persons in the trinity does not seem to me, to counter the Fact that their is one God.

As for God dying, this is true, but as we know the soul is eternal, and Jesus was not destroyed, but rather took a journey from the natural world to to the supernatural world in his death. His earthly body died, but his spirit continued on it's path to grant us salvation by assailing the gates of hell, and returning from the dead with a path to heaven.

[Zafran]

But none of this precludes the oneness of God does it? One cannot explain of course how there can be one in three and three in one and we can only use analogies such as when I am at work I am person X when at home person Y and when ..... But my question to you is do you reject the trinity, lets call it a concept because you don't understand it or is there some other reason?

The whole point of this dogma called the trinity is to explain the divinity of Christ, the father and the holy ghost. Ofcourse muslims reject that Christ is divine therefore nulifying the entire dogma of the trinity - for any pure montheist its hard to accept the concept of the trinity simply because it contradicts pure montheism.

Your analogy is weak a better one would be your a human at home - a non human at work and a............

so according to christians

Jesus (pbuh) is God
Holy ghost is God
Father is God

But you still believe in one God? ofcourse lets not even get into the Jesus being part man and part God which complicates things even further.

[bibleblevr]

Sure enough sounds like a separate Being. And that is after 7 centuries of refining the prayer from the second to 9th centuries to get it to appear to be more in line with the Trinity being one God(swt) The earlier versions were a bit more, shall we say separatist

The Earliest known version is the Latin "Symbolum Apostolorum" Which at least 3 versions exist. Notice the lack of mentioning of the "Holy Ghost" The concept of trinity was still forming and Christianity was at a Dualism not quite being Trinitarian yet.

I don't know enough about the timeline of the trinity's acceptance to intelligently disagree with you, but what I will say is that it is seen as a blessing in the Church that God continues to revel his truth through the church's ecumenical councils and the decisions of his Church's wise leaders.

[Zafran]

Yes I do believe all that. Just because God can make a full expression of himself through the form of one of the persons in the trinity does not seem to me, to counter the Fact that their is one God.

As for God dying, this is true, but as we know the soul is eternal, and Jesus was not destroyed, but rather took a journey from the natural world to to the supernatural world in his death. His earthly body died, but his spirit continued on it's path to grant us salvation by assailing the gates of hell, and returning from the dead with a path to heaven.

why does God have to die when God is the living? God can grant you salvation by forgiving you if you ask for repentence.

[جوري]

why does God have to die when God is the living? God can grant you salvation by forgiving you if you ask for repentence.

It makes for an interesting Narnia show..

:w:

[bibleblevr]

and YET, you will be explaining those "parts" below!


Yes, the nature of the trinity is that God is distinct in three fully divine persons, yet he in one God. The exact nature of the trinity is considered as a mystery by Christianity.

as rock is a rock! a rock is not God and God is not a rock!

It is a metaphor deigned to illustrate how something can exist in three ways all being fully the item of which we speak. Fear not, neither I nor any other sane individual believes God is a rock.

Plato was a Pagan! as such, he had NO IDEA as to how God operates. Philosophy is trying to guess whereas Revelation is God actually informing us! why do do prefer pagan concepts of God?
I am not advocating for Plato's position on God, especially since he had no concept of the trinity. I am using his way of explaining the states in which a thing can be fully existent. This useful explanation is like the gold that the Jews took leaving Egypt, it is from an ungodly source, but it can be usefully pressed into the Lord's service for his Glory none the less.

a rock is a rock, even charlie Brown knows that!
Lets not bring Charlie brown into this now :)


actually, your gospels said that Jesus said that about himself
Very true, because Jesus is in fact fully God


actually, the idea of "the logos" comes from pagan Philosophy. and a god that is dependent upon another god can only be a junior god or not even a god really. and IF you always have 2 or more gods, then you were NEVER monotheists.

"Logos" is first and foremost a Greek word, not an pagan idea (That I know of), it simply is used In the Bible for its efficient way of explaining how Jesus is the word, likeness, symbol, full embodiment of God, description, ect..... without having to name off what I just did and more. Conveniently the Greeks had a word that fit our meaning, so why not use it

Jesus is not a God dependent on another God, there is one God, he holds both a dependent position that is co-eternal with god, and a fatherly one which is not dependent, as I illustrated in my first post, the same "thing" can be fully itself in multiple forms without becoming multiple things, or being divided into parts that would make up a whole.

One cannot explain of course how there can be one in three and three in one
just stop right there. no further explanation called for!

Of course, I disagree, as I have offered the best explanation I can, and believe it to be true. You have heard my explanation, take it or leave it, the choice is up to you. I simply ask that you ponder the possibility of the trinity without the forgone conclusion that it is false.
Peace

By the way, I appreciate the civility of the discussion thus far.

[bibleblevr]

actually, the holy spirit in Christian art is always portrayed as a bird! one of your gods is a bird! and why does he "betray God?"

"Betray" is a synonym for the word "reveal", sorry for any confusion my diction may have caused.

As for the Bird, it is a symbol of the Holy spirit, the Holy spirit is also symbolized by water, fire, and light, but it is not any of these either. Also, it is important to note that it is not, and it has never been a teaching of the Church, that God is in any capacity, a bird.

[Zafran]

so Jesus pbuh is fully God? - why doesnt he know when the last hour is then if hes fully God he should be all knowing?

[Ramadhan]

The Son is the sign he is called the image of the invisible God, and is also called God's "Logos" He is the father's word and the fathers full representation,

nice so that leaves us with the other two, one lamb and one lion..

actually, the holy spirit in Christian art is always portrayed as a bird! one of your gods is a bird! and why does he "betray God?"

Imagine that you are looking at a rock, This rock has a structure that is defined and made of stone. It exists in the most real and basic way.

as rock is a rock! a rock is not God and God is not a rock!

So this is God's reincarnation evolution timeline according to christians:

God --------> spirit -------> man --------> bird -------> lion --------> lamb -------> fish -------> rock.


I shudder to think what's next.

so from the chart it is clear to see that for christians, god is everything from a ghost to a half naked man dying to a rock, but never a god.

[Rabi Mansur]

I never could understand how if Jesus were God, in the NT he often goes off and prays to The Father (God). How could he pray to himself?

Why would he tell his followers "don't call me good, only one is good your Father in Heaven"?

Why, if Jesus were God, did the Father say "this is my beloved son in whom I am well-pleased" after Jesus was baptized? He wasn't a ventriloquist was he? It makes no sense.

Why would he teach his disciples the Lord's prayer (Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, etc.,) if he were God? It doesn't make sense that he teaches them to pray to the Father unless of course Jesus really wasn't God.

The whole explanation of the trinity just seems to be an argument to try to fit Jesus' life into some type of divinity so that it agrees with the Old Testament concept of One God because the NT story of Jesus' life does not fit with the OT at all.

[bibleblevr]

why does God have to die when God is the living? God can grant you salvation by forgiving you if you ask for repentence.

There is a difference between God forgiving sins, and God granting salvation. God can forgive sins just by saying they are forgiven, and if one repents, they are as if they never happened. However, Christ's death went beyond forgiveness of sins! When he died, he descended into hell, and broke the gates that hold the souls inside. By his death and resurrection, he made a way to heaven. When we are baptized, we participate in his death, and our evil sinful nature is destroyed. Jesus carried his elect's sin, and sinful stains to the grave and left them there forever. If we give our lives for the following of Christ, we also participate in his resurrection, and by the merit of Jesus's perfect life, we are afforded the benefits of his inheritance. God sees Jesus standing in our place when ever he is to issue justice, we gain eternal life, and become sons of God by the merit of Jesus's perfect life and death. Furthermore, God gives us a new nature, one in which the Holy Spirit can dwell inside of, and transform into a temple on God.


None of these things would be possible unless God died in our place, otherwise who could have broken the gates of hell? Who could have lived a life so perfect that the grave had no right to keep him? Who could bear the sin, guilt and fallen natures of all of his elect, and yet be without spot or blemish? Finally, who's righteousnesses if so great that his reward is enough for all of his people to be blessed with life eternal and even communion with the father like he has!

[جوري]

None of these things would be possible unless God died in our place, otherwise who could have broken the gates of hell?

ha? why did god create hell all together?
how farcical is all of this? he can scratch out hell and be less dramatic and not die in a little town in Palestine neglecting the rest of the universe for something as absurd as eating sins ..

give me a break mac.. I know they come up with these convoluted tales to appease your queries and indeed you must have low standards but surely you can fathom that others think completely outside that box!

all the best

[Zafran]

There is a difference between God forgiving sins, and God granting salvation. God can forgive sins just by saying they are forgiven, and if one repents, they are as if they never happened. However, Christ's death went beyond forgiveness of sins! When he died, he descended into hell, and broke the gates that hold the souls inside. By his death and resurrection, he made a way to heaven. When we are baptized, we participate in his death, and our evil sinful nature is destroyed. Jesus carried his elect's sin, and sinful stains to the grave and left them there forever. If we give our lives for the following of Christ, we also participate in his resurrection, and by the merit of Jesus's perfect life, we are afforded the benefits of his inheritance. God sees Jesus standing in our place when ever he is to issue justice, we gain eternal life, and become sons of God by the merit of Jesus's perfect life and death. Furthermore, God gives us a new nature, one in which the Holy Spirit can dwell inside of, and transform into a temple on God.


None of these things would be possible unless God died in our place, otherwise who could have broken the gates of hell? Who could have lived a life so perfect that the grave had no right to keep him? Who could bear the sin, guilt and fallen natures of all of his elect, and yet be without spot or blemish? Finally, who's righteousnesses if so great that his reward is enough for all of his people to be blessed with life eternal and even communion with the father like he has!

so what was the point of hell and why does God have to die to close the gates of hell - God can just close them by just closing them? Why commit suicide? why create hell in the first place just so God can die? whats the justice of somebody else taking the sentence for you - the man taking the sentence is also innocent.

[bibleblevr]

so Jesus pbuh is fully God? - why doesnt he know when the last hour is then if hes fully God he should be all knowing?

He is all knowing.
Do you remember in the prophet Isaiah's book where it says I, even I (God), am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. Or as the prophet Jeremiah says, (God speaking) For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more
God can choose not to remember sin, in the same way, Jesus, even though he is omniscient, can choose not to know the hour or the day of his return.

[bibleblevr]

ha? why did god create hell all together?

Because having a place where those who are evil can be punished, is consistent with his nature. God is a just God, and justice demands that people are sent to hell if they break his law. The message That Jesus brings however, is that although God values Justice, he values mercy even more highly.

[Zafran]

He is all knowing.
Do you remember in the prophet Isaiah's book where it says I, even I (God), am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. Or as the prophet Jeremiah says, (God speaking) For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more
God can choose not to remember sin, in the same way, Jesus, even though he is omniscient, can choose not to know the hour or the day of his return.

so your saying God forgets?

It seems to me that Isiah is talking about forgivness that when God forgives it is as if the person hasnt sinned, ie what forgivness is *forgive and forget" - its got nothing to do with Knowledge or God being all knowing.

Forgiving is radically different from not knowing the last hour.

[bibleblevr]

Mercy is not possible unless justice is first in place, thus hell must exist before before God can grant the mercy of heaven.

[Zafran]

Mercy is not possible unless justice is first in place, thus hell must exist before before God can grant the mercy of heaven.

why does it? God can just be merciful if he wills - God doesnt NEED hell to be merciful?

[bibleblevr]

so your saying God forgets?

It seems to me that Isiah is talking about forgivness that when God forgives it is as if the person hasnt sinned, ie what forgivness is - its got nothing to do with Knowledge or God being all knowing.

The prophet clearly says that God remembers no more. God is all powerful, and can hold a paradoxical position if he chooses, being in a state of remembering and forgetting at the same time. However, It is likely that God means that our sins are not in the forefront of his conciseness, and that he simply thinks of them no more, If he wanted to recall them, he surly could, but he doesn't. Jesus also has chosen not to know the hour or day, and has kept it from his consciousness, like the Father, he could know if he wanted, but In Christ's case, he wants instead to remain is a state of expectation instead.

[جوري]

Because having a place where those who are evil can be punished, is consistent with his nature. God is a just God, and justice demands that people are sent to hell if they break his law. The message That Jesus brings however, is that although God values Justice, he values mercy even more highly.

Yes having an all loving nature and loving 'everyone' unfortunately doesn't reconcile with casting people in hell, perhaps you need a paradigm shift to describe this god so your arguments wouldn't be so extravagantly humorous, valuing justice and mercy can be carried out without god having to die with all that, that would imply!

Mercy is not possible unless justice is first in place, thus hell must exist before before God can grant the mercy of heaven.

God can't love 'everybody' and create hell to cast those whom he loves into it. And the saddest part is that this god you describe couldn't care less for all your deeds good or bad so long as you believe he died eating those sins, in other words you can bang your way through life do every sin imaginable as opposed to someone who spent a life in prayer and good deeds but doesn't believe in that self-immolating farce to be cast in the hell.. That doesn't describe an all loving god, and it certainly doesn't describe a just one either!

all the best

[bibleblevr]

why does it? God can just be merciful if he wills - God doesnt NEED hell to be merciful?

Mercy from what? if there is no punishment what mercy is he showing? Mercy is choosing not to use you right to justice, If there is no justice first in place, then what right is he forgoing?

[bibleblevr]

so what was the point of hell and why does God have to die to close the gates of hell - God can just close them by just closing them? Why commit suicide? why create hell in the first place just so God can die? whats the justice of somebody else taking the sentence for you whos actually innocent of the sin?

THe point of hell is to bring justice, by punishing sinners for their sins. God did not close the gates, he opened them, meaning, people can now die, but will not be stuck dead in the grave, but rather can live in heaven. There is no justice in someone else taking you punishment, it is Mercy and mercy is better than justice.

[Zafran]

The prophet clearly says that God remembers no more. God is all powerful, and can hold a paradoxical position if he chooses, being in a state of remembering and forgetting at the same time. However, It is likely that God means that our sins are not in the forefront of his conciseness, and that he simply thinks of them no more, If he wanted to recall them, he surly could, but he doesn't. Jesus also has chosen not to know the hour or day, and has kept it from his consciousness, like the Father, he could know if he wanted, but In Christ's case, he wants instead to remain is a state of expectation instead.

and? its like me saying if somebody hurt me - "forget about it" - Can God be all knowing and forgetful at the same time? It is a paradox thats the problem - how can you keep something away from your counciousness? when you forget you cant control it - making you less aware, therefore not all knowing.

[Zafran]

THe point of hell is to bring justice, by punishing sinners for their sins. God did not close the gates, he opened them, meaning, people can now die, but will not be stuck dead in the grave, but rather can live in heaven. There is no justice in someone else taking you punishment, it is Mercy and mercy is better than justice.

How is mercy better then Justice? If God opened the gates of hell God can also close them the same way.

[bibleblevr]

Yes having an all loving nature and loving 'everyone' unfortunately doesn't reconcile with casting people in hell, perhaps you need a paradigm shift to describe this god so your arguments wouldn't be so extravagantly humorous, valuing justice and mercy can be carried out without god having to die with all that, that would imply!

God does not love everyone. God loves all people and there actions in the context of his overall creation, but there are wheat and tares in humanity, sheep and goats, the seed of Satan and the children of God. God love his people not Satan's. The seed of Satan will be cast into hell forever, and this is right, they have rejected God and his path to eternal life of their own choosing. In Hell they will be punished according to their deeds and then destroyed.

God can't love 'everybody' and create hell to cast those whom he loves into it. And the saddest part is that this god you describe couldn't care less for all your deeds good or bad so long as you believe he died eating those sins, in other words you can bang your way through life do every sin imaginable as opposed to someone who spent a life in prayer and good deeds but doesn't believe in that self-immolating farce to be cast in the hell.. That doesn't describe an all loving god, and it certainly doesn't describe a just one either!

God does care for our deeds. In Heaven, those who have been righteous will revieve a much greater reward then those then those who have not been. Those who achieved salvation, but are not fully righteous will be sent to purgatory. In Hell sinners will be punished according to their deeds as I said above.

Just believing that Jesus died for us is not enough! The Bible says that not all that cry "Lord , Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven but those who DO THE WILL ON THE FATHER. Faith is dead without works God cares about deeds.

[bibleblevr]

when you forget you cant control it - making you less aware, therefore not all knowing.

And if there are things that you can't do, then that make you not all powerful, but we agree God God is all powerful, So I believe my explanation does a good job or keeping both of these true qualities of God in tact.

[bibleblevr]

How is mercy better then Justice? If God opened the gates of hell God can also close them the same way.

How is mercy better then Justice? Justice sends us all to hell because none of us have fulfilled the Law. Mercy lets us live. That is how it is better. God loves us and sees our weakness, and chooses to let us live even though we have chosen death by sin.

[جوري]

How is mercy better then Justice? Justice sends us all to hell because none of us have fulfilled the Law. Mercy lets us live. That is how it is better. God loves us and sees our weakness, and chooses to let us live even though we have chosen death by sin.

Only christians seem to not fulfill the law because of this false complacency that god ate their sins.. the rest of us certain live and strive to live by God's law.. further no one enters into heaven or hell because of fulfillment of this law, rather God's mercy, and such mercy doesn't require god to self-immolate!

all the best

[جوري]

God does not love everyone. God loves all people

is this a new spin? god doesn't love everyone, god loves all people? what a bunch of nutters christians are!

and there actions in the context of his overall creation, but there are wheat and tares in humanity, sheep and goats, the seed of Satan and the children of God. God love his people not Satan's. The seed of Satan will be cast into hell forever, and this is right, they have rejected God and his path to eternal life of their own choosing. In Hell they will be punished according to their deeds and then destroyed.

That line means god doesn't love everybody so stop with the love crap!
by the way it appears your god didn't only beget Jesus, but satan as well:

The sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6

God does care for our deeds. In Heaven, those who have been righteous will revieve a much greater reward then those then those who have not been. Those who achieved salvation, but are not fully righteous will be sent to purgatory. In Hell sinners will be punished according to their deeds as I said above.

God doesn't care for our deeds, what we do is for our own souls. Since God is independent of his creation and has no needs and needs not self-immolate to forgive!

Just believing that Jesus died for us is not enough! The Bible says that not all that cry "Lord , Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven but those who DO THE WILL ON THE FATHER. Faith is dead without works God cares about deeds.

if that is the case why did your god abrogate his own laws through a charlatan to send the masses into confusion after self-immolating and unable to choose apostles that would shoulder the responsibility of carrying his message after his death, surely a god should know he'd best hand pick apostles that wouldn't forsake him collectively so he'd have to appear in shadow to his nemesis and then change his mind about what he previously made as law!

all the best

[Zafran]

And if there are things that you can't do, then that make you not all powerful, but we agree God God is all powerful, So I believe my explanation does a good job or keeping both of these true qualities of God in tact.

Your explanations are paradoxical as you admitted which makes them bad and is part of the problem as it reduces it down to irrational belief - you have no problem with something being all powerful but at the same time forgetful - you have no problem with all knowing but then at the same time not knowing the last hour - They are contradictory - just like the angels and normal men Jesus pbuh has the same knowledge on the last hour making him not all knowing unlike God or the father.

Mark 13:32
But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father

why make the distinction? are you going to give me more paradoxes.

[Zafran]

How is mercy better then Justice? Justice sends us all to hell because none of us have fulfilled the Law. Mercy lets us live. That is how it is better. God loves us and sees our weakness, and chooses to let us live even though we have chosen death by sin.

as i said if God opened the Gates of hell God could close them the same way.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Zafran;

and? its like me saying if somebody hurt me - "forget about it" - Can God be all knowing and forgetful at the same time? It is a paradox thats the problem - how can you keep something away from your counciousness? when you forget you cant control it - making you less aware, therefore not all knowing.

I think if you use the word forgive instead of forget, it seems to make more sense.

Who can know the mind of God, the same God who created you and gave you a faith through Islam, also created me and gave me a faith through Christianity. The same God hears all our prayers, we all strive to obey the laws of God, and we all fall short, none of us deserve salvation through our own efforts, we all need the forgiveness and mercy of God.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith tolerance and unnderstanding

Eric

[Munda Pakistani]

May I (belatedly) remind the Muslims here that ridiculing other religions is against what our Prophet SAWW taught us?

"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best who have strayed from His Path and who receive guidance" (Qur'an, Surah Al-Nahl, Aayah 125)

[Hugo]

actually, the holy spirit in Christian art is always portrayed as a bird! one of your gods is a bird! and why does he "betray God?" just stop right there. no further explanation called for!;

Every religion uses images - in Islam you have As-Sirat (The Bridge Over Hell) but I doubt Islam demands that any one really has to accept there are two places with an actual physical bridge connecting them do they? In your second point are you saying that you will only accept things you can understand?

[جوري]

Every religion uses images - in Islam you have As-Sirat (The Bridge Over Hell) but I doubt Islam demands that any one really has to accept there are two places with an actual physical bridge connecting them do they? In your second point are you saying that you will only accept things you can understand?

In the context you speak whether the siraat is literal or allegorical doesn't alter religious significance and it has nothing to do with the salvation of the soul . In your religion you accept god as a man, god as a bird, as a lion as a lamb, god as wrestling with david, god remorseful, god dying.. all of which are absurd because it betrays the concept of monotheism and the concept of immortality, the concept of infallibility. Now Whether the siraat even exists or not, it is really not an issue, we are not talking about the single article of faith upon which your entire religion stands.. and if I may add it stands on smoke and mirrors.

all the best

[Hugo]

In the context you speak whether the siraat is literal or allegorical doesn't alter religious significance and it has nothing to do with the salvation of the soul . In your religion you accept god as a man, god as a bird, as a lion as a lamb, god as wrestling with david, god remorseful, god dying.. all of which are absurd because it betrays the concept of monotheism and the concept of immortality, the concept of infallibility. Now Whether the siraat even exists or not, it is really not an issue, we are not talking about the single article of faith upon which your entire religion stands.. and if I may add it stands on smoke and mirrors.

Let me respond in two parts. Firstly, Surah 19 Verse 71, could possibly be referring to the bridge. In that verse it says, "There is not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with your Lord, a decree which must be accomplished". But the prophet of Islam said "It is a slippery (bridge) on which there are clamps and (Hooks like) a thorny seed that is wide at one side and narrow at the other and has thorns with bent ends. Such a thorny seed is found in Najd and is called As-Sa'dan. Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, a strong wind, fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe without any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches, and some will fall down into Hell. The last person will cross by being dragged over the bridge." (Sahih Bukhari- Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532). All of which sound as if he meant it literally and if this indeed does in one way or another describe how to get into heaven I find it hard to understand why according to you it lacks 'significance"? But what is surprising in your argument is that you are quite happy to consider all this as literal or allegorical but when it comes to the Bible it seem you can only accept a literal reading - why, is this some kind of special pleading?

Let us consider one other point and I think you mean Jacob wrestling with God not David. Every Jew and Christian and I suspect every Muslim knows what it is like to wrestle with God. It is surely obvious that this is not literal and refers to those time in our lives when life itself overwhelms us, when circumstances seem to assault us so we doubt, despair, fear, blame God and wonder where God is or why he allows this or that event. It might be some tragedy in our lives, a loved one becomes ill, an earth quake kills thousand, we lose a job, someone rejects us and on. We can be fatalistic and just say inshalla but I thinks God was us to go beyond that and in any case where can we go in such times if it is not to God where we can pour out our hearts and sorrows to one who we know will listen and sustain and restore and strengthen our faith though we may never understand but can move on - in the Bible we find hundreds of cases like this from Abraham onwards.

[جوري]

Let me respond in two parts. Firstly, Surah 19 Verse 71, could possibly be referring to the bridge. In that verse it says, "There is not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with your Lord, a decree which must be accomplished". But the prophet of Islam said "It is a slippery (bridge) on which there are clamps and (Hooks like) a thorny seed that is wide at one side and narrow at the other and has thorns with bent ends. Such a thorny seed is found in Najd and is called As-Sa'dan. Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, a strong wind, fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe without any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches, and some will fall down into Hell. The last person will cross by being dragged over the bridge." (Sahih Bukhari- Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532). All of which sound as if he meant it literally and if this indeed does in one way or another describe how to get into heaven I find it hard to understand why according to you it lacks 'significance"? But what is surprising in your argument is that you are quite happy to consider all this as literal or allegorical but when it comes to the Bible it seem you can only accept a literal reading - why, is this some kind of special pleading?

Do you I understand you correctly when you say that I shouldn't accept a literal reading in Christianity, that Jesus isn't god? that he wasn't born to a woman, that he didn't suckle, excrement, pray to himself, forsake himself and die crucified by a couple of provincial oafs? if that is all allegorical then thanks for clarifying.. but what brand of Christianity do you subscribe to?

Let us consider one other point and I think you mean Jacob wrestling with God not David. Every Jew and Christian and I suspect every Muslim knows what it is like to wrestle with God. It is surely obvious that this is not literal and refers to those time in our lives when life itself overwhelms us, when circumstances seem to assault us so we doubt, despair, fear, blame God and wonder where God is or why he allows this or that event. It might be some tragedy in our lives, a loved one becomes ill, an earth quake kills thousand, we lose a job, someone rejects us and on. We can be fatalistic and just say inshalla but I thinks God was us to go beyond that and in any case where can we go in such times if it is not to God where we can pour out our hearts and sorrows to one who we know will listen and sustain and restore and strengthen our faith though we may never understand but can move on - in the Bible we find hundreds of cases like this from Abraham onwards.

that is voluminous loggerrhea that explains not nor detracts from what is written in the books to which you subscribe!

all the best

[Hugo]

Do you I understand you correctly when you say that I shouldn't accept a literal reading in Christianity, that Jesus isn't god? that he wasn't born to a woman, that he didn't suckle, excrement, pray to himself, forsake himself and die crucified by a couple of provincial oafs? if that is all allegorical then thanks for clarifying.. but what brand of Christianity do you subscribe to?

Can you share your particular wisdom with us and explain the principle or principles as to how you can distinguish between what must be or should be taken literally and what should not? Perhaps you will further aid us by showing how those principles work by illustrating it from with the bridge over hell as in my earlier post.

that is voluminous loggerrhea that explains not nor detracts from what is written in the books to which you subscribe!

If I may speak personally for a moment. Recently two good friends died suddenly and within weeks of each other. Frankly, I found it hard to accept and wanted to blame God for it. I know in faith the they are in a better place but for me it was a real; struggle with God and that was what I was explaining in my post and how believers down the ages have wrestled with God over circumstances and events over which they have seemingly no control - but for you its just "voluminous loggerrhea" so please explain how you or Muslims deal with difficulties or tragedies as perhaps you find it easier?

[جوري]

Can you share your particular wisdom with us and explain the principle or principles as to how you can distinguish between what must be or should be taken literally and what should not? Perhaps you will further aid us by showing how those principles work by illustrating it from with the bridge over hell as in my earlier post.

You should try answering the previous questions before posing new ones!

If I may speak personally for a moment. Recently two good friends died suddenly and within weeks of each other. Frankly, I found it hard to accept and wanted to blame God for it. I know in faith the they are in a better place but for me it was a real; struggle with God and that was what I was explaining in my post and how believers down the ages have wrestled with God over circumstances and events over which they have seemingly no control - but for you its just "voluminous loggerrhea" so please explain how you or Muslims deal with difficulties or tragedies as perhaps you find it easier?

You should see a counselor!

all the best

[siam]

@ hugo

"Recently two good friends died suddenly and within weeks of each other."
I am sorry for your loss. I hope you will remember that God is most Compassionate, most Merciful.

As a Muslim, I find it frustrating that Christians futiley try to explain the trinity---when will they get it into their heads that this cannot be explained to Muslims....? Christians can't even agree within themselves about all the convoluted doctrines......

There are many converstions that Muslims and Christians can have together---trinity is simply not one of them.

[Hugo]

You should try answering the previous questions before posing new ones!

Christians accept that Jesus was divine, God incarnate and they do this because the evidence from His life, work, teaching, death and resurrection assure us of this. So this is not some analogy it is for us a fact. If you choose to ignore the evidence and go some other way that is a matter for you.

Since you were unable to answer in the case of the bridge over hell then it is obvious it is an analogy. If it is real then getting into heaven is not a matter of Gods mercy but some kind of obstacle course: slippery, clamps, narrow, bent ends and so on and implies that even unbelievers can make it if they manage to avoid the obstacles although some will end up in Heaven with scratches so imperfect.

You should see a counselor!

I see so the Islamic way of dealing with life's ups and downs is to seek a counsellor? Well that is also the Christian way for we are told the God is a mighty counsellor.

[Hugo]

@ hugo "Recently two good friends died suddenly and within weeks of each other."
I am sorry for your loss. I hope you will remember that God is most Compassionate, most Merciful.

As a Muslim, I find it frustrating that Christians futiley try to explain the trinity---when will they get it into their heads that this cannot be explained to Muslims....? Christians can't even agree within themselves about all the convoluted doctrines......

Thank you for your kind words.
The trinity cannot be explained to anyone, it is a mystery but Christians accept it based on what they find in the NT. Because it cannot be explained does not mean it is not true and like almost everything in Islam and Christianity it is in the end down to a matter of faith and the evidence of that faith in your life and attitudes. I might add in passing that even in Islam there is not universal agreement over doctrine is there and I think it was your prophet who spoke about 73 sects and I guess they all claim to be pure Islam in some way.

There are many converstions that Muslims and Christians can have together---trinity is simply not one of them.[/QUOTE]

[جوري]

Christians accept that Jesus was divine, God incarnate and they do this because the evidence from His life, work, teaching, death and resurrection assure us of this. So this is not some analogy it is for us a fact. If you choose to ignore the evidence and go some other way that is a matter for you.

Since you were unable to answer in the case of the bridge over hell then it is obvious it is an analogy. If it is real then getting into heaven is not a matter of Gods mercy but some kind of obstacle course: slippery, clamps, narrow, bent ends and so on and implies that even unbelievers can make it if they manage to avoid the obstacles although some will end up in Heaven with scratches so imperfect.

I never asked you for the christian concept of Jesus as it is utterly nonsensical and completely inconsequential to me personally and to the discussion. Further, the question isn't whether I am able to answer it is whether I want to, frankly since your existence here you've done nothing but waste everyone's time and have displayed little to no interest in what anyone has to say-- I don't see why anyone should give you the time of day?!

I see so the Islamic way of dealing with life's ups and downs is to seek a counsellor? Well that is also the Christian way for we are told the God is a mighty counsellor.

I think you should see a counselor as it is evident from your writing here that you've multiple issues to workout. If God had been your counselor you'd not be *****ing about his divine will!
I have NO desire to cast pearls before swine-- if you're happy with your faith, your mangod, your man made laws then display it by having peace in your ways and in your heart, not by being a seething troll who jumps at every opportunity to profess beliefs and opinions he clearly doesn't espouse!

all the best

[M.I.A.]

Christians accept that Jesus was divine, God incarnate and they do this because the evidence from His life, work, teaching, death and resurrection assure us of this. So this is not some analogy it is for us a fact. If you choose to ignore the evidence and go some other way that is a matter for you.

Since you were unable to answer in the case of the bridge over hell then it is obvious it is an analogy. If it is real then getting into heaven is not a matter of Gods mercy but some kind of obstacle course: slippery, clamps, narrow, bent ends and so on and implies that even unbelievers can make it if they manage to avoid the obstacles although some will end up in Heaven with scratches so imperfect.


I see so the Islamic way of dealing with life's ups and downs is to seek a counsellor? Well that is also the Christian way for we are told the God is a mighty counsellor.

its like that billie jean video.

lol sorry to be flippant.

[IAmZamzam]

I find it interesting how so many conversion stories such as the one in the OP make such a point of the purity and emphasis of Islam's monotheism as a strong part of what drew them. I wonder why it's such a common selling point. Perhaps there is a monotheistic instinct we're born with and love on some level to see confirmed?

[M.I.A.]

people turn to islam because it is the truth,
we can only understand what we love when we have...for lack of a better word khadder or an understanding of the value of such a thing.

when we have no money for a long period of time and then we have money we have probably learned the value of that money.
when you are without love for a long time and then you find love by then you have probably learned the value of love.
when you are without truth for so long when you finally have it you should probably know the value of such a thing.

[TheRationalizer]

Hi Roger

The Trinity never made any sense to me either. A Christian proselytiser recently approached me and I asked him to show me where in the Bible Jesus says we should worship him. The best he could do was to show me that the Maji went to worship Jesus, and the Maji surely weren't stupid.

The idea that God would NEED to come to Earth as a human in order to understand us makes no sense to me, and the idea that God would come to Earth as a human to act as a human sacrifice (disgusting thought) in order to change laws that he himself created in the first place....again illogical.

As far as I know the bible doesn't say that Jesus and God are one. This idea was from Peter wasn't it? Some guy who never met Jesus, during a long journey on a hot road sees Jesus and God who basically say "Oh, forgot to tell you guys, I am God". Just some single guy with extraordinary claims and not a single miracle to prove the origin of his message and no witnesses to corroborate that they saw God talking to him.