cruci(fiction) Deedat vs. Douglas, brilliant-- Must watch!

Isn't that one wherein Deedat argues for swoon theory, which goes strictly against what the Koran says?

Well, I'm not certain if that's the one and I do not care to spend two whole hours just to find out, but swoon theory flatly contradits the Koran when it says that they did not crucify Jesus (P) at all (4:157, I believe).

At least he did in one of his debates, maybe it was with Josh McDowell. What it means to me is that I now find it harder to respect what he says about anything. Whichever debate it was, the whole thing seemed to consist of him repeating himself and heresying.

Yahya Sulaiman said:

Isn't that one wherein Deedat argues for swoon theory, which goes strictly against what the Koran says?

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No, Deedat never actually went against what the Quran said

Did you actually read his book Crucifixion or Crucifiction ? If you had read it , then you would have seen the afterword on the last page

He writes

“Honestly, I do not expect anyone to ask me about my belief as a Muslim concerning the Crucifixion. My belief is the Quranic belief as categorically stated in Chapter IV, Verse 157.”

http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Deedat/Crucifixion%20Or%20Cruci-fiction%20%5Bdeedat%5D.pdf


So here we see Mr.Deedat is telling us his own belief of Crucifixion. His belief is what the Quran says in 4:157 and obviously verse 158 as well. Sheikh Ahmed Deedat quotes this verse in his talks on the Crucifixion of Christ (pbuh)

“That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-“ (4:157)
The next verse reads
“Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-“ (Quran 4:158)

So we clearly see that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was raised up ALIVE and Mr.Deedat believes in that only. This is the view that the Muslims normally hold.

So, we see clearly that Sheikh Ahmed Deedat does NOT support the swoon theory . He only wrote this book to prove that Jesus (pbuh) was NOT crucified and this is sufficient to tumble the whole Christian faith since Crucifixion of Christ (pbuh) is the foundation of Christianity according to Paul and is the only way a person can achieve salvation and christianity is nothing but a pile of garbage (worthless) without crucifixion

If Christ is not risen from the dead, your faith is worthless (1 Cor 15:14).

Sheikh Deedat does NOT even consider the Bible to be the word of God. Refer to his book

Is the bible God's word ?

http://www.jamaat.net/bible/BibleIntro.html

I have always seen two approaches to be negative:

1- when we try to prove that a beloved scholar won't ever err even once.

2- when we open fire ,mocking the whole efforts of a schoar ,just cause he erred once !
and that is what I see here...

Deedat won't err even once ...Subhan Allah
on the other hand

Deedat isn't to be trusted about anything he say ,just cause he erred once .... Subhan Allah

that is exaggeration ...... just let's be moderate

yes Deedat argued for a swoon theory (just a simple reading to his book reveals that ),such theory I consider to be flawed .....but that by no means would degrade the other great works,efforts the man did.....

bro Yahya Sulaiman, though I agree with you regarding the error just noted, but I think we should show much appreciation and respect for the great scholars ,yet never believe them to be flawless or above criticism...

peace..

yes Deedat argued for a swoon theory (just a simple reading to his book reveals that ),such theory I consider to be flawed .....

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Deeda's belief is verse no 4:157 , he has only shown that the Bible speaks a swoon theory , the same way Gospel of barnabas speaks of a substitution.Deedat does not beleive that the Bible is the word of God

The purpose of writing the book was to use the enemy's weapon (bible) against them and tumble their faith which just hinges on the event and believes that there is nothing that Christianity can offer mankind, other than the blood and gore of Jesus. If Jesus did NOT die, and he was NOT resurrected from the dead, then there can be NO salvation in Christianity!

peace

Airforce said:

Deeda's belief is verse no 4:157 , he has only shown that the Bible speaks a swoon theory ,!

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and that is why I said he erred ...... the bible doesn't speaks a swoon theory

Jesus died according to the bible ...

Mark 37And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Matthew 27:50
50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Luke 23:46
46And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John 19:30
30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Luke 24:46. He(Jesus) told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day.

why wouldn't muslim believe in that? it is not cause christians misunderstood the bible that claims(according to the argument) for swoon theory , the reason if far serious and solid

readers may visit my thread to get more solid basis for denying the cliams of the bible that against Islam..

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...ghly-comparative-study-arranged-items-10.html


MAy Allah bless the soul of Deedat and his huge efforts in the field of comparative religion........

though we questioned his approach to crucifiction, we would never forget him as the pioneer who pushed our ambition to learn something .....

without that man , you wouldn't ever find me here contribute to the section, as his books were the first for me ever in the field of christianity (I was 15 years old then)....

May God bless his soul always

and that is why I said he erred ...... the bible doesn't speaks a swoon theory

Jesus died according to the bible ...

Mark 37And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

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After his supposed "death" Jesus begins calming the disciples' fear for taking him to be a ghost.
He says:
"Behold (have a look at) my hands and my feet, that it is I myself (I am the same fellow, man!): handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh and bones, as you see me have. . . And he showed them his hands and his feet."
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 24:39-40

IF he had died he is supposed to rise with a spiritual Body.

1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

That didnt happen and that proves he did not die just like the just hundreds of people who have come back from the "dead"? We read about them daily in our newspapers. Those persons who were certified dead, by medical men, and who subsequently came back to life; They were not really DEAD, in the sense of DEATH AND RESURRECTION. Our Doctors have erred and will continue to make mistakes.

Below is an example of a man who was "Dead"

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/89685

Did the man get resurrected after his supposed "death"?

Resurrection will happen on the Judgement. No resurrections till then and no one will die twice

Bro Airforce ....... I understand you...

just I'm afriad once your argue(biblical swoon theory) with a christian ...and find him providing texts of Jesus predicting his DEATH and text of Jesus after the crucifiction telling he came to life after DEATH , not only that but he affirmed that such process been written about in the old testament !!

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Luke 24:46. He(Jesus) told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day.


so what makes me not to believe in such passages? there are more serious reasons to do so (explained in my thread)....
you know what is the best thing in our discussion till now? it is that we both appreciate Ahmed Deedat and we both respect each others....

peace be upon you...

Al-manar said:

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Luke 24:46. He(Jesus) told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day.

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Thats another contradiction of a self contradicting bible , he rose on the 2nd and not 3rd day




It can even be use it to prove the substitution theory

The Bible says

“For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;” (Psalms 37:28)

Yet when Jesus Christ (pbuh) was put on the cross according to the Bible. He cried out

“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46)

How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones?? There are only 4 options to chose from

1. The person put on the cross was not really Jesus.
2. Jesus (pbuh) was not faithful to God.
3. Jesus (pbuh) lied that God forsook him.
4. Bible is lying when it says that God does not forsake his beloved ones.

Also we notice the man on the cross drink vinegar

Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (John 19:29-30) .

But Jesus had said

But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:29)

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor,(Luke 1:15)

So he implies Jesus was alive, alive, alive. How was he alive, when they pierced his side to make sure he was dead?


Also how was the Gospels hearsay when John was at the cross?


A valid point and very good argument however is the passage Deedat quotes in Luke. I don't know what to make of that.

But I can't believe Jesus was NOT crucified. They beat the hell (no pun inteneded) outta the man, why would God allow somebody else to endure that torture?

Personally, the only way I could take that verse, is if it is not taken literal. It says 'but they killed him not, nor crucified him', because in essence, he's alive. Lol. 'but so it was made to appear to them', them meaning Jews?

The idea that Jesus just swooned on the cross and didn't die is medically impossible. Death by crucifixion occurred through exhaustion asphyxia - the victim eventually suffocated. The position of the body on the cross left the chest muscles used for breathing in a permanent inhalation position. In order to exhale, the victim would have to actively push his body up against the nails holding his feet to the cross. If Jesus had passed out on the cross, He would have died within 10 minutes by suffocation.

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(In the other thread somebody complained, so.. Yes, I put it in quotes because it won't let me link the sites. I try and it tells me You are not allowed to post any kinds of links, images or videos until you post a few times.)


Deedat shouldn't have even wasted his time. I watched his other debates too, and he debates evangelicals. All they do is preach. You can't have a discussion with them. Here is Deedat prepared with a dialogue, and instead of presenting arguments back, they preach. That's what I got from it anyways. So in every debate, Deedat's conviction alone, makes the others look stupid. I don't know.

τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1378750 said:

you are well aware surely that folks were crucified, not just the so-called christian god?.. you should in fact direct that question to your god, why would others who weren't themselves god allowed to endure that torture..

honestly the logic or lack thereof that Christians part with around the clock is nothing short of hilarious..

all the best

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He's your God too, ain't he?