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Pygoscelis
11-08-2010, 01:42 AM
What is the muslim view on contraception and abortion? Are muslims are vehemently opposed to contraception as Catholics are? Are muslims as vehemently pro-life as fundamentalist Christians are? Or is this a matter not addressed by Islam?
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جوري
11-09-2010, 03:58 PM
you can use contraception. However you can't abort and especially not as a form of birth control. If there is a valid medical reason for an abortion by way of anencephaly, hydatid mole or whatever then a D & C can be performed or others may opt for a spontaneous abortion to take place!

how can people not value human life to such an extreme... if you can't handle the consequences of your sexual escapades then stop bed hopping. People genuinely pay their entire savings to have a child and then on the extreme end you have people who have positively no regard for human life!
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Predator
11-09-2010, 04:07 PM
http://www.islamawareness.net/Family...abortion3.html
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Pygoscelis
11-09-2010, 05:13 PM
Thanks

Personally, I support contraception and find that the Vatican has done a lot of harm in its ban on it. Abortion I have never been able to form a strong view on one way or the other. I do not feel any sympathy for a newly fertilized egg but I also can not fathom how somebody could abort late term, when the unborn is clearly a child. I suspect my views may actually for once be consistent with Islam :)
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GuestFellow
11-09-2010, 05:24 PM
^ This calls for a celebration! *Throws confetti*
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جوري
11-09-2010, 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Thanks Personally, I support contraception and find that the Vatican has done a lot of harm in its ban on it. Abortion I have never been able to form a strong view on one way or the other. I do not feel any sympathy for a newly fertilized egg but I also can not fathom how somebody could abort late term, when the unborn is clearly a child. I suspect my views may actually for once be consistent with Islam
their views on abortion as well the alleged da mnation for the so-called unbaptized children leave very little to be desired indeed (well amongst other things) in Christianity. How can a newborn inherit any sort of sin? and what kind of God would hold an infant as a sinner?

I never had a strong view about abortion one way or the other until I became of age, and was surrounded by nieces and nephews and seen people struggle with the desire to have children, go through painful treatment, lose all their savings to go for futile fertility rounds, have multiple spontaneous abortions.. it is really hellish. If those who throw away life can change places for one day, I think perhaps they would at least opt to put those children up for adoption.. who knows..if you had a child of your own or wanted one you can't help but feel something strong.. also there is regret that ensues to those who have abortions, I was reading in NEJM or Jama I forget which, that a substantial number of those who decide on abortions have regrets in the beginning and the number increases later in life I believe about 1/3 of them wish they could have thought about it a little more. A friend of mine had an abortion at 17, now in her thirties unable to conceive, she thinks of that quite often .. and it is indeed quite sad!

all the best
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Predator
11-10-2010, 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
the Vatican has done a lot of harm in its ban on it.
I dont find pretty odd how the Church would ban it when their own book seems to showcase the Lord's displeasure for onanism

GENESIS 38:8-9
"And Judah said to Er's (deceased) brother Onan. Go and sleep with your brothers widow. . . "But Onan knew that the children would not belong to him ie. so when he had INTERCOURSE with his brother's widow (Tamar), he let the semen spill on the ground, so that there would be no children for his brother.And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also

What I find suprising is the same God does not show any displeasure after giving laws like

(20:10) "The adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

When David SLEEPS with a young virgin in KINGS 1 1:1,3
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siam
11-13-2010, 04:27 AM
It is easy for educated people to condemn young inexperienced women by saying "they should know better". But the reality is that many of these women really do not know any better. (non-Muslim women---I do not know the situation regarding Muslim women). They have not had any guidance in their lives. In some societies (such as the West) the men are not held accountable for their role in the pregnancy---all the blame and responsibility is placed on the shoulders of these young women who often have to bear this burden alone. During the period of pregnancy, these women may have to leave schools or jobs and this plunges them into poverty with often no way out.
The Guidance and Wisdom that Islam provides, helps to prevent such economic and social oppression---first by ensuring that both partners are accountable through the institution of marriage. And it also allows for family planning to ensure that families are sustainable and it allows for abortion in certain limited circumstances such as the health of the mother...etc so that families are strong and healthy.
For those young non-muslim women who did not have the guidance and wisdom of Islam---it is better to view their situation with compassion rather than condemnation.
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Trumble
11-13-2010, 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Thanks

Personally, I support contraception and find that the Vatican has done a lot of harm in its ban on it. Abortion I have never been able to form a strong view on one way or the other. I do not feel any sympathy for a newly fertilized egg but I also can not fathom how somebody could abort late term, when the unborn is clearly a child. I suspect my views may actually for once be consistent with Islam :)
Likewise, more or less, although I think most Buddhists would not be able to make such an easy distinction between fertilized egg and developed embryo. I suspect something similar would be true in (some?) theistic religions, in terms of when the embryo is given its soul by God? When an embryo becomes a 'person' is a highly debated question scientifically and philosophically.

My personal view is that abortion is morally wrong in all cases except those when continuing the pregnancy represents a risk to the mother, or in the case of rape. I do not, however, support a legal prohibition partly because it just encourages the horrors of 'back-street' abortionists, but mostly because I do accept the mother's right to make the decision given suitable advice, provided she accepts responsibility for both the secular and religious consequences. I am able to draw a distinction between abortion and murder (I understand many anti-abortionists do not), and with that in mind have no right to legally force my moral views on this issue on others.
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Pygoscelis
11-13-2010, 02:42 PM
I never understood people who hold the view that Abortion is wrong, but ok if the woman was raped. Either its murdering an equal or its not. If it is, then having been victimized by some other person (the father) is no excuse for said murder. We don't let people who get raped kill their born children, so why their unborn (if we run under the view that both are equal).
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جوري
11-13-2010, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I never understood people who hold the view that Abortion is wrong, but ok if the woman was raped

The chances of a woman getting pregnant from a rape are slim to nil!
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Trumble
11-14-2010, 10:33 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I never understood people who hold the view that Abortion is wrong, but ok if the woman was raped. Either its murdering an equal or its not. If it is, then having been victimized by some other person (the father) is no excuse for said murder. We don't let people who get raped kill their born children, so why their unborn (if we run under the view that both are equal).
As I at least implied in my last, that position can only be consistent if you do not equate abortion to murder, hence not adopting the view that unborn and born are 'equal'. Whether they are in moral terms or not is obviously a question of huge debate, as is where the line should be drawn during pregnancy. My personal view is to consider the situation in the view of suffering; who/(which) experiences the most suffering - an embryo or the mother forced against her will to carry the child of the rapist to term?

In the case of born children, they can simply be offered for adoption, which is what frequently does happen when women choose to continue the pregnancy but are unable, for whatever reason, to care for the child properly after birth. I would also point out that the logical consequence of assuming 'equality' is that all women guilty of obtaining illegal abortions would presumably also be guilty of first degree murder, presumably leading to the usual punishment for that offence on conviction. Is that really a situation you think society could stomach?
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Pygoscelis
11-15-2010, 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
I would also point out that the logical consequence of assuming 'equality' is that all women guilty of obtaining illegal abortions would presumably also be guilty of first degree murder, presumably leading to the usual punishment for that offence on conviction. Is that really a situation you think society could stomach?
It is the only rational conclusion from the pro-life starting point that human life begins at conception, etc. If we are going to make excuses for the mother murdering her child in this case (that wouldn't be applicable in other cases), then clearly we find the "child" to be inferior and not deserving of equal consideration.
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IAmZamzam
11-22-2010, 07:28 PM
Trumble, I agree that while abortion is immoral it (probably) shouldn't be illegal. However, I would think that the Buddhist community's position would be a little firmer than you depict on whether abortion should ever be practiced, as taking someone out of their current "cycle" before they've had a chance to do anything with it deprives them of the chance to attain nibbana before going on to the next cycle, and the idea is the sooner the better. Also, is Buddhism not a passivist religion? Have these points not been brought up amongst you folks?

Sister lily, raped women do get pregnant. It happens more often than you seem to think. Ethel Waters, for example, was born of such a union (or so I've heard). The odds are no lower of a person being conceived after a single bout of non-consensual sex than they are of the same thing happening after a single bout of consensual sex. Relatively low, yes, but not so low as not to be an issue.
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Ramadhan
11-22-2010, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Trumble, I agree that while abortion is immoral it (probably) shouldn't be illegal. However, I would think that the Buddhist community's position would be a little firmer than you depict on whether abortion should ever be practiced, as taking someone out of their current "cycle" before they've had a chance to do anything with it deprives them of the chance to attain nibbana before going on to the next cycle, and the idea is the sooner the better. Also, is Buddhism not a passivist religion? Have these points not been brought up amongst you folks?
I think Trumble is only a buddhist when it suits his points, just like most of christians are, actually.
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siam
11-23-2010, 02:38 AM
as far as I know, Buddhism does not have a fixed position on abortion---some in the far east view it as acceptable. In Islamic jurisprudence, the soul does not enter at conception.
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GuestFellow
11-26-2010, 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
I think Trumble is only a buddhist when it suits his points, just like most of christians are, actually.
:sl:

Yes, I've noticed that. Some people follow a particular religion but only accept the parts that they like, and ignore the rest. Unfortunately, the same can be said for some Muslims.
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IAmZamzam
11-26-2010, 04:27 PM
I'm not really interested in jurisprudence. You can't take any chances at all when it comes to human lives. If it's even the least bit plausible, or even arguable, that the thing you're attacking could be considered a human life, why take such a monstrous risk? Nevertheless, it is an issue of morality and would perhaps best be left out of issues of law.
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Trumble
11-29-2010, 10:07 AM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Trumble, I agree that while abortion is immoral it (probably) shouldn't be illegal. However, I would think that the Buddhist community's position would be a little firmer than you depict on whether abortion should ever be practiced, as taking someone out of their current "cycle" before they've had a chance to do anything with it deprives them of the chance to attain nibbana before going on to the next cycle, and the idea is the sooner the better. Also, is Buddhism not a passivist religion? Have these points not been brought up amongst you folks?
Of course they have, and the matter has been and still is the subject of considerable debate. There are mixed opinions, which I why I deliberately stated I was presenting a personal opinion. For example, look at recent events in Thailand.

Whether a community or a particular individual is opposed to something or not, and I am opposed to abortion, will not stop it happening. And the Buddhist community, in the West at least, has no history of forcing it's beliefs on others.
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B_M
12-03-2010, 02:31 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Personally, I support contraception and find that the Vatican has done a lot of harm in its ban on it.
Harm, how so?
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Pygoscelis
12-03-2010, 04:50 AM
Pregnancies to poor folks who can not afford to raise the children continuing the cycle of poverty, as well as the rapid spread of AIDS come to mind.
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