Arabic for (those two - masculine)

[TheRationalizer]

Ash Shams = The Sun (single feminine)

الشّمس

If we had two suns how would I say
(Those two - feminine) Suns?

Thanks

[aadil77]

I think its ash shamsu

[أحمد]

:sl:

الشمس is feminine, from its old term الشميسة; no mystery behind it.

:wa:

[TheRationalizer]

الشمس is feminine, from its old term الشميسة; no mystery behind it.

Wa salam

I don't think there is any mystery. I was just wondering, if we had two Suns how would we write Al Shams instead?

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[أحمد]

:sl:

Wa salam

I don't think there is any mystery. I was just wondering, if we had two Suns how would we write Al Shams instead?

Dual form (the two suns): الشمسان\الشمسين and in older terminology: الشميستان\الشميستين

:wa:

[أحمد]

:sl:

Other common words following the same pattern of grammar, include: نار، جحيم، جهنم

Words falling into feminine form, via relation to "pairs", e.g. a hand is available as a pair of hands, so يد is feminine.

:wa:

[aadil77]

bro I don't think he can read arabic ^

transliteration would help

[أحمد]

:sl:

bro I don't think he can read arabic ^

transliteration would help

I quite agree.

:sl:

Other common words following the same pattern of grammar, include: نار، جحيم، جهنم

Words falling into feminine form, via relation to "pairs", e.g. a hand is available as a pair of hands, so يد is feminine.

:wa:

Transliterated below:

Other common words following the same pattern of grammar, include: Naar, Jaheem, Jahannam.

Words falling into feminine form, via relation to "pairs", e.g. a hand is available as a pair of hands, so Yad is feminine.

:wa:

[أحمد]

:sl:

:sl:

Dual form (the two suns): الشمسان\الشمسين and in older terminology: الشميستان\الشميستين

:wa:

Transliteration:

Dual form (the two suns): Ash-Shamsaan/Ash-Shamsain and in older terminology: Ash-Shumaisataan/Ash-Shumaisatain.

:wa:

[TheRationalizer]

bro I don't think he can read arabic

I've been on a basic Arabic course, I can read Arabic I just can't speak the language :-)

[TheRationalizer]

Ahmad, thanks very much for your help! Would you mind also helping me with this named object?

ٱلشِّعۡرَىٰ

How would that be written in a dual form?

[أحمد]

:sl:

Ahmad, thanks very much for your help! Would you mind also helping me with this named object?

ٱلشِّعۡرَىٰ

How would that be written in a dual form?

Grammatically, الشعرتان would be acceptable. In this case, however- as its a specific name; its kept as it is.

The alif maqsur (ى) suffix, makes the noun feminine- hence, the changed suffix of تان to replace ى.

:wa:

[TheRationalizer]

So "those two Sirius" would be الشعرتان - is that correct?

[أحمد]

:sl:

So "those two Sirius" would be الشعرتان - is that correct?

Yes, that's correct.

I hope you get the answers you seek :inshallah

As for me; I'm out of here (on a break).

:wa:

[TheRationalizer]

It's just that as I read the Quran I saw that it mentions the star Sirius. It occurred to me that Sirius is a binary star system so I wondered if the Quran indicated this in the way in which it wrote "The Sirius". I was wondering if this was one of the apparently miraculous ways in which the Quran was worded, but it seems not.

It seems that a mere human with 1400 years worth of scientific discovery can make an improvement to the accuracy of a book allegedly written by the all-knowing creator of the universe.

Thanks for your help with the Arabic, I appreciate it. I wish I had more time to go back to classes.

[أحمد]

:sl:

It's just that as I read the Quran I saw that it mentions the star Sirius. It occurred to me that Sirius is a binary star system so I wondered if the Quran indicated this in the way in which it wrote "The Sirius". I was wondering if this was one of the apparently miraculous ways in which the Quran was worded, but it seems not.

It seems that a mere human with 1400 years worth of scientific discovery can make an improvement to the accuracy of a book allegedly written by the all-knowing creator of the universe.

Thanks for your help with the Arabic, I appreciate it. I wish I had more time to go back to classes.

Anything would appear "an error", if not understood properly. There have been books and articles written, to explain this matter in more detail; google "grammatical errors in the quran" for details. I think Dr Zakir Naik, briefly explained a few points, and cleared some misconceptions in a debate video. I'm guessing, the debate was with William Campbell.

:wa:

[TheRationalizer]

Anything would appear "an error", if not understood properly

I didn't say it was an error, I merely said that I could improve the Quran by making it more accurate. If I can improve it then it is imperfect, and imperfection is not an indicator of an all-powerful perfect being.

[أحمد]

:sl:

I didn't say it was an error, I merely said that I could improve the Quran by making it more accurate. If I can improve it then it is imperfect, and imperfection is not an indicator of an all-powerful perfect being.

Even the greatest, most educated people in Arabic, can't "improve", nor could ever "improve" anything, nor produce the likeness of the Quran. If you can do so, then produce a Quran, or even just a Surah of it. I see you've "accepted" the challenge, so get on with it; you've got a lot to do.

:wa:

[TheRationalizer]

It's a silly challenge because it is subjective. It is just like me challenging you to bring forth a baby more beautiful than my baby girl.

Instead what I did was showed that where the Quran mentions Sirius it mentions it in a singular form, but seeing as Sirius is actually two stars (Sirius A and Sirius B) it would have been more accurate to say (those two) Sirius.

If there is an opportunity within the Quran to improve it then it is imperfect.

[أحمد]

:sl:

It's a silly challenge because it is subjective. It is just like me challenging you to bring forth a baby more beautiful than my baby girl.

Instead what I did was showed that where the Quran mentions Sirius it mentions it in a singular form, but seeing as Sirius is actually two stars (Sirius A and Sirius B) it would have been more accurate to say (those two) Sirius.

If there is an opportunity within the Quran to improve it then it is imperfect.

I thought you understood, the concept of grammar of anything, which can be available in pairs? Its given a feminine form.

:wa:

[TheRationalizer]

I thought you understood, the concept of grammar of anything, which can be available in pairs? Its given a feminine form.

You gave me two examples of how to change Sirius into a dual form. The imperfection lies in the absence of information, that there are two stars and not one.

[جوري]

شمس
المثنى : شمسين - شمسان
الجمع : شموس

[جوري]

I didn't say it was an error, I merely said that I could improve the Quran by making it more accurate. If I can improve it then it is imperfect, and imperfection is not an indicator of an all-powerful perfect being.

Go ahead and improve it-- we will all be eagerly awaiting that!

all the best

[TheRationalizer]

شمس
المثنى : شمسين - شمسان
الجمع : شموس

We've moved onto ٱلشِّعۡرَىٰ

[جوري]

Instead what I did was showed that where the Quran mentions Sirius it mentions it in a singular form, but seeing as Sirius is actually two stars (Sirius A and Sirius B) it would have been more accurate to say (those two) Sirius.

you are so funny.. The pagan Arabs are said to have venerated Sirius, which thus explains the context for the Quranic passage quoted

‘And that it is He who is the Lord of Sirius’ (Surah al-Najm 53:49).

The aim of this verse is to emphasise that for all its brightness, Sirius is still only a created thing and thus only God is truly worthy of worship.

now try to improve it as such that not only does it flow in syntax, context, but also lyricism for one of the Quran's greatest lingual miracles is that it reads like a poem though it isn't a book of poetry.



go ahead we'll be waiting for your insert and let's us hear it!

all the best

[جوري]

see my previous posts- there is no plural for Sirius. a Sirius A and a Sirius B are two separate entities!

and the challenge for you is still open!

all the best

[TheRationalizer]

I don't need to improve it in the way it rhymes or flows, I only need to identify a place where the meaning of the words could be improved. If it were a book by god then neither the flow or meaning could be improved, and god would certainly be able to achieve both perfect flow *and* perfect information.

[جوري]

I don't need to improve it in the way it rhymes or flows, I only need to identify a place where the meaning of the words could be improved. If it were a book by god then neither the flow or meaning could be improved, and god would certainly be able to achieve both perfect flow *and* perfect information.

you have done no such thing, and even if it is your perception where you haven't minimal knowledge of Arabic or the historical context in which this was revealed your objection is nothing short of completely flawed. Not only is the verse very specific but also very accurate. It need not mention every star in existence to your satisfaction to denote such perfection in textual integrity, logical consistency and miraculous features. Further I have already stated that there is no plural to Sirius. It isn't a sun or two it is a very specific star that was revered by the pagan Arabs.

36:36 (Asad) Limitless in His glory is He who has created opposites in whatever the earth produces, and in men’s own selves, and in that of which [as yet] they have no knowledge. [18] -

as stated if you can do better and not by way of hearty guffaw then by all means do so and let it flow and take on the millenniums old challenge of the Quran!

all the best

[أحمد]

:sl:

You gave me two examples of how to change Sirius into a dual form. The imperfection lies in the absence of information, that there are two stars and not one.

That imperfection, is in the way I presented you the information- the Quran itself is perfect. If you're looking for "the perfect explanation" from the words of a human being; you'll never find it.

As for the challenge; what's your progress?

:wa:

[TheRationalizer]

I didn't expect it to mention every star in existence, but what I did expect is when it mentions something that it gets it right.

Another example, Sura 86:1-2
1: By the heaven and the Morning Star
2: Ah, what will tell thee what the Morning Star is!

In those days people didn't know the difference between planets and stars, they were all just dots in the sky (except planets moved differently).

The morning star is the planet Venus. So here the Quran claims it is about to tell us what Venus is...I remember the anticipation as I read expecting it to say something like

"It is not a sun like the distant stars, but like the Earth it circles the Sun".

One simple sentence which describes what Venus is perfectly and at the same time dispels common misconceptions

Misconception: All white dots in the sky are the same
Correction: Some are planets and some are stars

Misconception: All objects in the sky orbit the Earth
Correction: The Earth and Venus orbit the Sun

New information: Stars are suns, and our Sun is merely a close star

So, what does the Quran say?

It says "It is a piercing (word for both planet + star)". The information missing would be acceptable except for the fact that the Quran first promises to reveal what "The Morning Star" is, and then when it does it just says "It's very bright". That's awful!

[جوري]

I didn't expect it to mention every star in existence, but what I did expect is when it mentions something that it gets it right.

You are yet to prove that it is wrong!

Another example, Sura 86:1-2
1: By the heaven and the Morning Star
2: Ah, what will tell thee what the Morning Star is!

In those days people didn't know the difference between planets and stars, they were all just dots in the sky (except planets moved differently).

How do you know what people back then knew or didn't.. They knew Sirius and yet you object that only Sirius is mentioned not A or B and here you're complaining whether people back then knew the difference between planets or stars. Do you actually have a real objection or just want to write for the sake of spamming?

The morning star is the planet Venus. So here the Quran claims it is about to tell us what Venus is...I remember the anticipation as I read expecting it to say something like

"It is not a sun like the distant stars, but like the Earth it circles the Sun".

What does this even mean?

One simple sentence which describes what Venus is perfectly and at the same time dispels common misconceptions

Misconception: All white dots in the sky are the same
Correction: Some are planets and some are stars

Again relevance to Quranic text?

Misconception: All objects in the sky orbit the Earth
Correction: The Earth and Venus orbit the Sun

Where in the Quran is there an allusion to objects orbiting the earth?

New information: Stars are suns, and our Sun is merely a close star

So, what does the Quran say?

It says "It is a piercing (word for both planet + star)". The information missing would be acceptable except for the fact that the Quran first promises to reveal what "The Morning Star" is, and then when it does it just says "It's very bright". That's awful!

How old are you? I am starting to believe I am engaging a third grader.
If you have clear objections please raise them, double reference from both a dictionary and superimpose on what is actually written in the Quran, as I have no desire to pursue vain discourse with an under-educated teenager.

all the best

[TheRationalizer]

I don't think you read my point. My point was that the all-knowing creator of the universe says "I will tell you what the Morning Star is", but the description given is that which any human could have given by standing outside in the early morning and looking at the sky.

[Insaanah]

The Theme in the Surah

The THEME in the surah is repeated in different ways, but it is specifically related to Journeying. This will be understood later on throughout the explanation of the surah insha Allah.

The Surah is divided into 5 sections.

Verse 1:

Section 1:

Aqsaam (Allah swears by):

- the Samaa' / sky (what is above us)

وَالسَّمَاءِ وَالطَّارِقِ


- & the Tariq / piercing bright star. We will discuss this Tariq insha Allah.

Jawab al Qasam - every oath is given a response to. Ie. we say I swear by Allah... I'll do this etc.

So Allah swears by the samaa', and the Tariq.


What is the samaa'?

Samaa' literally means anything above us. Different to Samaawaat which is the 7 layers of the sky (sab'a samaawaat). (these are part of the unseen/ghayb, but we are in the lowest samaa'.)

So samaa' is more than sab'a smaawaat because it is everything above us (including Allah's 'Arsh [throne] which is above the 7 skies/sab'a samaawaat).


Samaa' - limitless term to everything above us.

Samaawaat - limited to the 7 skies.


Nevertheless samaa' can be limited i.e. samaa' al dunya (surah mulk 67:5), ie the sky of this world/universe.

The limit placed for Samaa' in this surah is al Tariq (the shining star in this universe).

Why does Allah swear by something?

Allah swears by anything to make it a witness [primarily]. Ie. the sky is a witness as to what I'm about to say.

The sky is also an intro as to what I am about to say.

What is al Tariq?

Tarq -- path [tareeq] -- striked [taraqa] -- a road which people, animals etc walk on alot -- their feet strike it alot.



Tariq - someone who specifically walks at night time. The arabs travelled at night because it was cooler than the heat at day.

When they reach a destination and knock on the door, they are an unexpected arriver.

That which arrives at night, = Tariq - causing alot of attention, because its rare to find someone arriving and knocking on your door at night.

In this surah, Tariq refers to the large brilliant stars in the sky.

Is it one star or many stars?

2 opinions:

1) specifically one star. Ie Zuhal (seen by arab travellers in the last part of the night, as a highlight of their journey, they would call it the companion of that journey.)

2) all brilliant stars in sky because a general term is used.


Night is a relief for the arabs (its cool and relaxed), so seeing the sky embedded with pearls (stars) is the best scenery for them (in comparison to plain desert during the day.)

Tariq arrives at night and calls for their attention, so the piercing star in the samaa' (sky) does just this, perfectly.

This is what Tariq literally refers to.

Verse 2:

وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا الطَّارِقُ


(wa ma adraka al tariq?) [past tense (adraka)]. Has anyone given you a clue as to what al tariq is?

He asks questions when the answer - usually - cant be known to human beings by themselves.

In Qur'an, there is a Difference in wording when Allah asks us questions:

Maa Adraka? (Has anyone made known to you...?). (past tense.) - He answers it

Maa Yudreeka? (What will tell you?) (present-future tense) - He doesnt answer it.


In this surah, the question is also posed to tell us that we dont know much about the Tariq (i.e. humans have been given a limited amount of knowledge) and cant really appreciate or comprehend it due to our limited capabilities.

[[ Recommended Eman booster: Dr. Abdul Hayy (works for NASA). Allah's Universe - on Youtube. Watch and refer to it. ]]

Allah says He has adorned the 1st heaven/sky with stars/lamps (surah mulk 67:4), In Surah Waqi'ah, Allah does a qasam/oath on the position of stars, and that it's a great oath indeed (Waqi'a 56:75-6).

This is only 1st samaa', and there are 7 smaawaat. Showing how limited we really are (so we shouldnt be arrogant of what little knowledge we have been given.)

Verse 3:

What is Najm ul Thaqib?

النَّجْمُ الثَّاقِبُ

(al Najm (star) ul thaqib.) thaqaba - blazing fire, light piercing.


Imagine the night a black blanket, with a hole in. If you cover your face with the blanket, and a window is in the room with daylight. The light will pierce through the hole and the light becomes strongly apparent and pierces through the blanket.

Light pierces through the sky from stars and travels through vast distances to reach your eyes.

Relation to the THEME in surah : Journeys.

- The surah mentions the word Taraqa/Journeying to describe a star.

- The surah then mentions the stars light, piercing the sky (samaa') for billions of miles to reach your eye.

- The surah shows how the star brightens the dark night = unveiling secrets.


Seeing Allah's signs through Different Perspectives:

Allah mentions Tariq in this surah, so they see the star from a new perspective. I.e. They were guided in travelling by mapping their journey through locations of big bright, piercing stars (Qawaqib). Maybe they will be guided by reflecting on a surah of the Tariq.

Allah uses psychology by making people reflect on what they already see of the world but from a different or deeper perspective.

Ie camels, mountains,stars are also mentioned by Allah repeatedly so that when we see them, we remember the Jawab al Qasam (response to the oath).

Source: http://linguisticmiracle.blogspot.co...-tariq-84.html

We are encouraged to reflect, and contemplate in the Qur'an:

Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding. Such as remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (and say): Our Lord! Thou createdst not this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of the Fire. (3:191)

Peace.

[جوري]

I don't think you read my point. My point was that the all-knowing creator of the universe says "I will tell you what the Morning Star is", but the description given is that which any human could have given by standing outside in the early morning and looking at the sky.

If you're given descriptions beyond your human mind you render it fairy tales, if you're given signs that exist in creation you render it obvious. The problem therein lies with you not with the creator or what is written in the Quran. In fact as stated in the noble Quran:

Sahih International
And We have certainly diversified in this Qur'an for the people from every [kind of] example; but man has ever been, most of anything, [prone to] dispute.

It is amazing that your psychology isn't that different from your type a millenniums ago..
Please do me a favor and write only when you have something of substance to impart.

btw I'll still be waiting for you to make a plural or dual of Sirius and improve upon the Quran. You should put up or shut up!

all the best