Koran and...alchemy?!

[IAmZamzam]

At Wikipedia or someplace I read that panacea or the elixir or life is "also associated with the Qur'an's Al Khidr ('The Green Man')". Which verse is this? Surely God's Book doesn't refer to alchemy?

[Eshai]

I would be interested in learning this as well, if anyone readily knows.

[greenhill]

Salaams,

I don't know much about Khidr as there's not much about telling detailed accounts of him.

What I noticed about what I have read about him is that he appears sporadically in the life of other known figures of past.

He has appeared in Iskandar's time, he was alluded to be the man that Moses, pbuh sought, until they had to part ways.

Off hand, I can't remember if there were more encounters with him, but I'll stick my neck out and say that he does make more appearances.

May someone else enlighten us further..


Peace :shade:

[Scimitar]

I don't believe that al Khidr lived beyond a normal human life span. The stories about immortality and visitations with other prophets etc - are all jewish stories which are not actually included in their pentateuch - so if they don't place any providence in them, why the heck do we?

Bottom line:

And We did not grant to any man before you eternity [on earth]; so if you die - would they be eternal? - Quran 21:34

This ayah makes me really reflect on the nature of humanity. Khidr was a man, like you or I or next guy - he ate, he slept, and he did the things humans do. He was not some special super human character - that belief has no basis in Islamic theology.

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[Eshai]

The practical alchemist does not tend to be concerned with obtaining immortality, as such is fantasy. The focus tends to be on creating medicines which have a "spiritual ingredient." Another focus of alchemy is the transformation of the self; the observation of how a person changes being reflected in how the natural world changes.

[greenhill]

Wasn't alchemy originally the idea of turning of lead into gold?

I also read about our prophet (pbuh), saying in passing, how he much we could have learnt had Nabi Musa kept his patience when he joined Khidir (?) on that journey.

Yes, I believe that every soul shall face death but there were humans, prophets no less, that lived into hundreds of years, Nabi Nuh, 900 plus, I have read. But that is beside the point, perhaps Khidir has returned to his Maker?

Peace :shade:

[greenhill]

Has anyone heard about the story about Nabi Musa and his encounter with Nabi Adam (peace be to them both)?

[Muhaba]

I don't believe that al Khidr lived beyond a normal human life span. The stories about immortality and visitations with other prophets etc - are all jewish stories which are not actually included in their pentateuch - so if they don't place any providence in them, why the heck do we?

Bottom line:

And We did not grant to any man before you eternity [on earth]; so if you die - would they be eternal? - Quran 21:34

This ayah makes me really reflect on the nature of humanity. Khidr was a man, like you or I or next guy - he ate, he slept, and he did the things humans do. He was not some special super human character - that belief has no basis in Islamic theology.

The following is from the tafseer of verse 18:82 (see http://www.tafheem.net/tafheem.html ):

In connection with this story, a very hard problem arises to which an answer must be found: Two of the three things done by Hadrat Khidr are obviously against those commandments of the Law which have always been in force since the creation of man. No law allows anyone the right to damage the property of another and kill an innocent person. So much so that if a man were to know by inspiration that some usurper would illegally seize a certain boat, and that a certain boy would be involved in a rebellion and unbelief, even then no law, sent down by Allah, makes it lawful that one should bore a hole in the boat and kill the innocent boy by virtue of one's inspiration. If in answer to this, one were to say that Hadrat Khidr committed these two acts by the Commands of Allah, this does not solve the problem, for the question is not this, "By whose command did Hadrat Khidr commit these acts"? but it is this: "What was the nature of these commands"? This is important because Hadrat Khidr did these acts in accordance with Divine Command, for he himself says that these acts of his were not done by his own authority, but were moved by the mercy of Allah, and Allah Himself has testified this by saying: "We gave him a special knowledge from Ourselves". Thus it is beyond any doubt that these acts were done by the Command of Allah, but the question about the nature of the command remains there, for it is obvious that these commands were not legal because it is not allowed by any Divine Law, and the fundamental principles of the Qur'an also do not allow that a person should kill another person without any proof of his guilt. Therefore we shall have to admit that these commands belonged to one of those decrees of Allah in accordance with which one sick person recovers, while another dies: one becomes prosperous and the other is ruined. If the Commands given to Hadrat Khidr were of this nature, then one must come to the conclusion that Hadrat Khidr was an angel (or some other kind of Allah's creation) who is not bound by the Divine Law prescribed for human beings, for such commands as have no legal aspect, can be addressed to angels only. This is because the question of the lawful or the unlawful cannot arise about them: they obey the Commands of Allah without having any personal power. In contrast to them, a man shall be guilty of a sin whether he does any such thing inadvertently by intuition or by some inspiration, if his act goes against some Divine Commandment. This is because a man is bound to abide by Divine Commandments as a tnan, and there is no room whatsoever in the Divine Law that an act may become lawful for a man merely because he had received an instruction by inspiration and had been informed in a secret way of the wisdom of that unlawful act.
The above-mentioned principle has been unanimously accepted by scholars of the Divine Law and the leaders of Sufism. `Allamah Alusi has cited in detail the sayings of 'Abdul Wahhab Shi`irani, Muhy-ud-Din ibn-`Arabi, Mujaddid Alf Thani, Shaikh 'Abdul-Qadir Jilani, Junaid Baghdadi, Sirri Saqti, Abul-Hussain An-nuri, Abu Said-al-Kharraz, Ahmad ud-Dainauri and Imam Ghazzali to this effect that it is not lawful even for a sufi to act in accordance with that inspiration of his own which goes against a fundamental of law. (Ruh-ul-Ma ani, Vol. XVI, pp. 16-18). That is why we have come to the conclusion that Hadrat Khidr must be an angel, or some other kind of Allah's creation, exempted from human law, for he could not be the only exception to the above-mentioned formula. Therefore we inevitably come to the conclusion that he was one of those Servants of Allah who act in accordance with the will of Allah and not in accordance with the Divine Law prescribed for human beings.
We would have accepted the theory that Hadrat Khidr was a human being, if the Qur'an had plainly asserted that the "servant" to whom Prophet Moses was sent for training, was a man, but the Qur'an does not specifically say that he was a human being but says that he was "one of Our Servants", which does not show that he was necessarily a human being. Besides this, there is no Tradition which specifically says that Hadrat Khidr was a human being. In the authentic traditions related by Said bin Jubair, Ibn `Abbas, Ubayy bin Ka`ab from the Holy Prophet, the Arabic word, ,}i~ (rajul) has been used for Hadrat Khidr, which though generally used for human beings, is not exclusively used for human beings. In the Holy Qur'an itself, this word has been used for Jinns also (LXXIII 6). It is also obvious that when a jinn or an angel or an invisible being will come before a human being, he will surely come in human shape and, in that form; he will be called a bashar (man), just like the angel who came before Mary in the shape of a human being (XIX: 17). Thus the word rajul, used for Hadrat Khidr in the abovementioned Tradition by the Holy Prophet, does not necessarily mean that he was a human being. Therefore we are quite justified in the light of the above discussion to believe that Hadrat Khidr was one of the angels or some other kind of Allah's creation who is not bound by the Divine Law prescribed for human beings. Some of the former scholars of the Qur'an have also expressed the same opinion which . has been cited by lbn Kathir in his Commentary on the authority of Mawardi.

[Signor]

Is al-Kihdr living on the face of the earth?

---

Is al-Khidr still living on the face of the earth until the present day? And will he remain alive until the Day of Resurrection?

Praise be to Allaah.

Al-Shanqeeti said:

The stories of al-Khidr told by the righteous are innumerable. They claim that he and Ilyaas perform Hajj each year and they narrated du’aa’s from them, and these stories are well known and widespread, but the basis of what they say is very weak, because most of them are stories narrated from some of those whom they think are righteous, or dreams and ahaadeeth that are attributed to Anas or others, but all of them are da’eef (weak) and cannot be used to prove anything.

What seems to me to be more likely, based on the evidence concerning this matter, is that al-Khidr is not alive, rather he died. This is for a number of reasons:

1 – The apparent meaning of the aayah (interpretation of the meaning)

“And We granted not to any human being immortality before you (O Muhammad); then if you die, would they live forever?”
[al-Anbiya’ 21:34]

2 – The Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “O Allaah, if you allow this group of Muslims to be destroyed, You will not be worshipped on earth.” (Narrated by Muslim)

3 – The Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said that one hundred years after the night on which he was speaking, none of the people who were on the face of the earth then would still be alive. If al-Khidr had been alive at that point he would not have remained after the hundred years mentioned. Muslim ibn al-Hajjaaj said that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar said: “The Messenger of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) led us in praying ‘Isha’ one night towards the end of his life, then he stood up and said: ‘Do you see this night of yours? One hundred years from now not one of those who are on the face of the earth now will remain.” Ibn ‘Umar said: “The people did not understand these words of the Messenger of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and they said that this meant that the Day of Resurrection would come after one hundred years. The Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘not one of those who are on the face of the earth now will remain’ meaning that that generation would pass away.”

4 – If al-Khidr had lived until the time of the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), he would have followed him, supported him and fought alongside him, because he was sent to the two races of jinn and mankind.

http://islamqa.info/en/20505

Same arguments were also made by Ibn Kathir in his book Stories of Prophets.

@greenhill

Saheeh Bukhari,Volume 8, Book 77, Number 611

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. 'O Adam! You are our father who disappointed us and turned us out of Paradise.' Then Adam said to him, 'O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action which Allah had written in my fate forty years before my creation?' So Adam confuted Moses, Adam confuted Moses," the Prophet added, repeating the Statement three times.

[Signor]

Double Trouble!

Dual Posts

[syed_z]

Asalaam O Alaikum,

My 2 Cents on Khidr (a.s) must be a human and not Angel, for if he was an Angel, the greatest Angel of all is none other than Jibraeel (A.S) the Leader of all Angels and he brought revelations to Musa (a.s) from Allah (swt), why would there be a need for Musa (a.s) to be sent to an Angel in a far off place who would be lesser in status than Jibraeel (a.s)?

And since Maluana Madudi in the below reference shared by our sister does say that (rajul) has been used for Hadrat Khidr, which though generally used for human beings, is not exclusively used for human beings.

So Rajul could also mean human.

Secondly and most importantly, the purpose to send Musa (a.s) to the Junction of 2 Seas (Al Quran 18:60) was so he could learn from a man just like himself who even though was not a Prophet like himself but knew the spiritual realities of this life that even he, being one of the greatest Prophets, did not know. So sending him to an Angel would defeat the purpose because Angels are heavenly creatures and not earthly and are made of Nur not Earth. Learning can be done from someone like yourself, like Prophets were chosen from among mankind because if Angels were sent instead then people would have an excuse not to learn as they are not their own kind.

The Sole purpose to teach Musa (a.s) was because one of the Children of Israel said to him 'O Musa you are the most learned on earth' and Musa (a.s) rather than praising Allah (swt), accepted proudly what came out of that man's mouth, to which Allah (swt) then informed him that he wasn't the only one, rather there is another servant of His who is more learned than he is. It was this humbleness that was taught by Khidr (a.s) as soon as they sat on the boat and a bird rested on the corner of the boat and dipped it's beak in to the great body of water and took some to drink to which Khidr (a.s) then reminded Musa (a.s), that the water taken by the bird compared with the water in the river or sea, was both of their knowledge as compared to the great knowledge of Allah (swt). Which means that the 1st step to learn is to humble oneself and Khdir (a.s) being a human himself had done it and was able to acquire knowledge that was much much deeper. So Khidr (a.s) is teaching Musa (a.s) and us a lesson of great importance. (References for the bird part can be found in Bukhari and Muslim)

[greenhill]

Thank you Signor,

Needed that comment regarding the meeting of Nabi Adam and Nabi Musa (pbut) to highlight the possibility of an even longer life than that of Nabi Nuh (pbuh).

Just a thought (if you follow what I'm alluding to).


Peace :shade:

[Eshai]

Wasn't alchemy originally the idea of turning of lead into gold?

This was an idea within alchemy. It was not the basis for alchemy. The principal idea was transmutation: the "transformation" of one substance into another. This happens on various levels, including the atomic level (and given enough power, lead can be transmuted into gold just as hydrogen is transmuted into helium). The spiritual alchemist looks within at the transformation of his own soul, perhaps similar to the internal jihad?

[Signor]

At Wikipedia or someplace I read that panacea or the elixir or life is "also associated with the Qur'an's Al Khidr ('The Green Man')". Which verse is this? Surely God's Book doesn't refer to alchemy?

It is not because the Book says:Every soul shall have taste of Death (29:57)

To us,the only ever lasting being is our creator,Allah Almighty:

Allah! There is no god but He,-the Ever-Living,, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory). Al-Baqarah 2:255

[Scimitar]

Alchemy is confined to an almost mythological status in the modern age, and rightly so - today we have chemistry, the progeny of alchemy which bested its parent.

yet we're still chasing ghosts in this modern age - go figure :D

Scimi

[Eshai]

yet we're still chasing ghosts in this modern age - go figure

I see where you're coming from, but is it possible that people in the past could have been aware of something we are no longer aware of? Is it possible that knowledge can be lost?

[Scimitar]

I see where you're coming from, but is it possible that people in the past could have been aware of something we are no longer aware of? Is it possible that knowledge can be lost?

The answer is yes to both your questions... however, if you try to apply these questions to the subject of Alchemy... then I'd have to say No, and No - to those questions.

Take for example - how we have mapped the periodic table - something Alchemists of previous millenia were unable to do - but wanted to do - they wanted to discover all the "elements" so they could "play" with them.

Alchemy, is a redundant science in the modern age, simply because Chemistry and Science have trumped all the hocus pocus from the pseudo-Science of Alchemy.

Alchemy was never truly a science - it was a whimsical understanding of the divine Laws which man would want to bend for himself. But couldn't. Because those laws are static... they don't change. What could I possibly mean in relation to static laws? Things like gravity, relativity, etc etc etc... we humans can not lengthen our lifespans indefinitely, and none of us know when we will die - alchemy, at its most daring - tried to discover the secret of life, and therefore - immortality... the philosophers took this idea and applied it in a philosophical sense - ie: no man attains immortality unless his name and deeds live on even after his death - and this can be applied in two ways.

1) by having progeny, who you have taught well and will honour you even after you are gone - they carry on your bloodline and keep a family tree (genealogy)
2) by doing something so recognised that the person is glorified even after death - for example, Jesus pbuh, or Cyrus the Persian, or Alexander the Macedonian - or "enter famous historical figure here"

The idea of alchemy is laughable in the modern age... however, in the past? It really wasn't.

Take for example the South American tribes who would fit large stones so perfectly together without mortar, that we in this, the modern age cannot replicate what they did? Amazing huh? It turns out they had developed a liquid paste that could be applied to stone and left for some minutes - the stone then becomes Pliable - like putty - and once it dries, it hardens back up again.... how did they do that? what plants did they use to make the paste? have we lost some knowledge from the ancients? Undoubtedly... the passage of time, affects all things, and all things have a time and place - this is my understanding of the higher alchemical philosophy.

If the alchemists of yester-century were alive today, given the knowledge we have today - what would they make of our scientists? What would, for example, Newton (who was an alchemist) make of say, CERN and the Hadron Collider?

These are questions which one can ponder and muse over - they provide some very interesting trains of thought to follow.

Scimi

[Scimitar]

The spiritual alchemist looks within at the transformation of his own soul, perhaps similar to the internal jihad?

:) very true...

Imam Al Ghazali - the Alchemy of Happiness (spiritual alchemy - I believe you'll like this docu-movie)


Scimi

[Eshai]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Scimi. =) And the link to the film. It looks interesting.

I believe what you say concerning Alchemy is true. On the physical level, it was based on an understanding which certainly has been superseded by our own modern understanding of the elements.