Most Muslims don’t know Islam

[Thinker]

I have just been watching a TV programme about Wills (It was on BBC 2 - I think it’s called something like you can’t take it with you). The programme was about helping families from various situations make out their Will to deliver what they wanted to leave to whoever. This particular programme involved a Muslim couple described as a ‘professional’ couple who had amongst their assets a house worth £600,000. They had three children, two (older girls) and a son. The wife looking very Muslim with her head fully covered and her husband wanted a ‘Muslim’ Will which included (upon their death) that their assets should be given wholly from husband to wife or wife to husband or on joint death equally amongst their children. This ‘professional’ couple were shocked to discover that the Qur’an dictates that their assets should be split differently (as we here all know how). That confirmed to me that most Muslims trundle along through life dressing like Muslims and doing what they do thinking they are Muslims but really don’t have a clue about Islam and what it teaches and dictates in terms of how they live their lives. At the end of the programme they sat round a dinner table, with their friends and family and an Imam. Their (Pakistani) parents and Imam told them that is they it must be (according to the Qur’an) and they and their friends pleaded - but we’re now in 21st century UK their must be another interpretation appropriate for the 21st century.

I have long suspected that most Muslims have a very superficial understanding of Islam and this programme has confirmed it.

What say you?

[YusufNoor]

ibn bononbos,

a TV show about 5 people has "proven" your "thesis" about Muslims?

it only goes to show that when it comes to "thinking," you don't know jack!!

[سيف الله]

Salaam

I have long suspected that most Muslims have a very superficial understanding of Islam and this programme has confirmed it.

What say you?

This is rather impressive Thinker,

Your ability plumb the depths of the orientalist mindset never ceases to amaze.

Bro YusufNoor gave an adequate response so theres no need to respond further

[GuestFellow]

:sl:

I have to agree to some extent. From my experience, there are many Muslims that don't know much about Islam. Though your suspicion should not be based on a Muslim couple lol.

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[PouringRain]

I agree with the above two posters....... one muslim couple on tv is representative of all? Woe to all of us and the people on tv who represent our culture/ religion!!!

I don't believe that the couple in the shows lack of knowledge about leaving their possessions would qualify as a lack of knowledge about their religion. None of us can be all-knowing and there will always be things within a religion that individuals are not aware of. Even scholars do not agree on all things. If the scholars can not agree, nor know all things, then how can we expect the common man to know that much more? To whom much is given, much is required.

[Neelofar]

To that I say, shame on you 4 making one muslim couple the basis of your comparison. They didn't fully know the rules and regulations regarding the issues concerning wills. That doesn't mean to say Muslims in general do not know what Islam teaches and what it's about. P.s was there any relevance in pointing out their ethnic origin? Peace =)

[kashmirshazad]

Sorry, what exactly is an Agnostic? Do you belive in FOX news or Oprah Winfrey lol?

[IAmZamzam]

Anytime a TV show purports factuality, you can be almost sure that what it teaches is full of inaccuracies or in some cases (as in "reality" TV) lies. Even the History Channel gets things wrong embarrassingly often.

[AhlaamBella]

Ok, first off I completely agree that it is bang out of order to use this one TV programme about one incident as evidence for your patronizing theory.

HOWEVER, I do agree a lot of Muslims fail to understand or even attempt to learn about the depths of their religion.

Again, however, when it comes to the specifics of wills and testaments, it is a very difficult topic to grasp and therefore is a poor example. The rest of the Islamic rulings, which are clearer are understood by many Muslims perfectly.

[Zafran]

Salaam



This is rather impressive Thinker,

Your ability plumb the depths of the orientalist mindset never ceases to amaze.

Bro YusufNoor gave an adequate response so theres no need to respond further

Salaam

I'll second that.

peace

[Ramadhan]

I have long suspected that most Muslims have a very superficial understanding of Islam and this programme has confirmed it. What say you?

I think you need to change your username. Maybe "No_thinker" would be a start.

Can you please tell us how your mind "think" (I am using the the word very loosely now) to arrive at a conclusion from a couple of muslims ----> most muslims?

[Ramadhan]

Again, however, when it comes to the specifics of wills and testaments, it is a very difficult topic to grasp and therefore is a poor example. The rest of the Islamic rulings, which are clearer are understood by many Muslims perfectly

I disagree.
The subject of wills is among the most fleshed out and clearly defined and regulated in the Qur'an. Many other aspects need to be explained in details by ahadith, etc., but the wills and testaments are thoroughly explored in the qur'an.
Many muslims however follow only their desires and follow the western trend, hence you get an example of the muslim couple in the OP.

[Dagless]

ibn bononbos,

a TV show about 5 people has "proven" your "thesis" about Muslims?

it only goes to show that when it comes to "thinking," you don't know jack!!

+1. They were obviously the majority of Muslims. The other one is busy causing terror in Afghanistan :P

I don't see what they did as wrong or embarrassing. There are different levels of knowledge and that's why we have scholars. They didn't know something so asked an imam. I think most Muslims would ask an imam or someone learned in matters of jurisprudence even if they did know. If they then followed the imams advice then good on them.

[Zafran]

I disagree.
The subject of wills is among the most fleshed out and clearly defined and regulated in the Qur'an. Many other aspects need to be explained in details by ahadith, etc., but the wills and testaments are thoroughly explored in the qur'an.
Many muslims however follow only their desires and follow the western trend, hence you get an example of the muslim couple in the OP.

Salaam

Not true - wills are techinical just like inheritence is - you need to go to a scholar to write one out - not everyone knows what goes in a will - most people probably dont even know the basics of wills in secular nations under a secular law - thats why they have lawyers to explain it to them.

Quran and hadith is techinical stuff as well so you need scholars to advice you of how to write one.

peace

[AhlaamBella]

I disagree.
The subject of wills is among the most fleshed out and clearly defined and regulated in the Qur'an. Many other aspects need to be explained in details by ahadith, etc., but the wills and testaments are thoroughly explored in the qur'an.
Many muslims however follow only their desires and follow the western trend, hence you get an example of the muslim couple in the OP.

You misunderstood. I was not at all implying that the explanation in the Qur'an is unsatisfactory. Just that it is so complex that a scholar's guidance is needed when the situation arrives.

[glo]

Thinker, I must agree with other posters here that drawing the conclusion that 'most Muslims don’t know Islam' from the example of a handful of people in the TV documentary is really not acceptable. :hmm:

[tigerkhan]

16:125 Call unto the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and reason with them in the best manner. Verily your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path and and best knows He as to who are the rightly-guided.

[Thinker]

Of course I cannot make a judgment on what ‘most’ Muslims know based upon one couple, so why do I say that? My comments on Islam have often been cast aside on the basis that I can’t possible be qualified to make any observations on Islam because I am not Muslim and I have often suspected I know more about Islam than most Muslims. Now there’s that word ‘most’ again. Most Muslims have been exposed to Islam teaching for longer than me and that alone should mean that most know more than me. The couple in question looked to be in their late 40’s and had clearly been brought up as Muslims from birth by (Pakistani) Muslim parents. I have been looking at Islam for only a couple of years and I encountered the inheritance question a long time ago so why did I know it and they didn’t? Were the couple in question typical Muslims knowing as much about Islam as the average (British) Muslim. They looked more Muslim than most and were clearly worried not to offend God by making a non-Islamic Will – so I concluded that if they are more Muslim than the average British Muslim (and they were certainly more intelligent/better educated than most British subjects) they should know more about Islam than ‘most’ British Muslims. That’s why I used the word ‘most.’

And for those interested what was the outcome? They wheeled in another scholar who could provide them with a modified interpretation. (Again another thing I have often said, if scholar 'A' says it should be this way there will always be another scholar who says it should be that way).

[AhlaamBella]

Quick question:

Why on EARTH do you keep pointing out they are Pakistani? :/

[Neelofar]

My thoughts exactly Ahlaam Bella! Like it really matters if they're Gujarati or Pakistani or whatever other ethnic origin. Thinker, you can't judge someone on how islamic they 'look'! :| Dayymmm! That statement is quite narrow-minded =( so what if they didn't know about wills and what have you be, of course there are going to be some aspects of Islam which they haven't encountered properly, just because they are Muslim does not mean they should know everything regarding their religion, granted, they should try and learn as much of it as they can, but there are billions of people who are not knowledgeable and who know the ins and out of their religion. Peaceeeeeeeeeee =D

[GuestFellow]

Salaam

Not true - wills are techinical just like inheritence is - you need to go to a scholar to write one out - not everyone knows what goes in a will - most people probably dont even know the basics of wills in secular nations under a secular law - thats why they have lawyers to explain it to them.

Quran and hadith is techinical stuff as well so you need scholars to advice you of how to write one.

peace

:sl:

Agreed. Most people would not have a clue about how to make a proper will, whether Islamic or not.

Quick question:

Why on EARTH do you keep pointing out they are Pakistani? :/

It does not matter what nationality they are. In Islam, these concepts don't exist.

[AhlaamBella]

:

It does not matter what nationality they are. In Islam, these concepts don't exist.

My point exactly. I'm just wondering why he keeps pointing that out as if it helps back up his argument

[Woodrow]

It is strange if a non-Muslim does not know why an apple falls out of a tree he is told to look in a physics book. If a Muslim is asked the same question he is told he does not know Islam as he can not give the Islamic reason.

The world is a very big place and each of us live very diverse lives. We can all strive to apply Islam into all we do, but no one person will ever know the Islamic rulings on every thing. All any of us can do is to seek out that which keeps our life halal and concentrate on living a halal life. None of us will ever be perfect and know everything, but then again we need not be perfect to live a halal life.

[aadil77]

Quick question:

Why on EARTH do you keep pointing out they are Pakistani? :/

probably because pakistani's in the UK are not very well informed about islam

[Rabi'ya]

:sl:

Its been a while since I posted, and usually I don't bother getting caught up in these silly arguments or disagreements. However, I feel I must write something here (then probably disappear for a few more months)

When I became Muslim, I took some Muslims girls as friends. As any person in a similar situation would do, I looked at the way they led their life and tried to learn from them (alongside reading books etc) It is clear to me that there ARE indeed many misconceptions among Muslims as well as non-Muslims but as Uncle Woodrow pointed out, none of us are perfect and we are all striving towards making ourselves better.

Thinker, I understand how you might draw this conclusion but it is important you keep studying the religion and try not to draw final conclusions. Continually keeping an open mind will help you a lot. In the past 8 years I have drawn conclusions about certain things within Islam, only to have my conclusion shattered to pieces and then remade again.

An open mind, and a keen heart for understanding I think is the way forward.

Peace and Blessings to everyone(until my next post, be it soon or not)

[YusufNoor]

Of course I cannot make a judgment on what ‘most’ Muslims know based upon one couple, so why do I say that? My comments on Islam have often been cast aside on the basis that I can’t possible be qualified to make any observations on Islam because I am not Muslim and I have often suspected I know more about Islam than most Muslims.

actually, i cast aside your opinions because i have a very low opinion of you.

Now there’s that word ‘most’ again. Most Muslims have been exposed to Islam teaching for longer than me and that alone should mean that most know more than me.

i would suggest that you don't KNOW Islam at all. you only indulge in picking up bits and pieces of information in order to try to pretend that you are intelligent and therefore, based upon this imagined intelligence, you feel that people should take "knowledge" and your opinions about "knowledge" with some gravitas. therefore, your "intent" is wrong. but you don't understand that because you don't understand Islam [contrary to your own mistaken opinion].

The couple in question looked to be in their late 40’s and had clearly been brought up as Muslims from birth by (Pakistani) Muslim parents. I have been looking at Islam for only a couple of years and I encountered the inheritance question a long time ago so why did I know it and they didn’t?

as i stated above.

Were the couple in question typical Muslims knowing as much about Islam as the average (British) Muslim. They looked more Muslim than most and were clearly worried not to offend God by making a non-Islamic Will – so I concluded that if they are more Muslim than the average British Muslim (and they were certainly more intelligent/better educated than most British subjects) they should know more about Islam than ‘most’ British Muslims. That’s why I used the word ‘most.’

And for those interested what was the outcome? They wheeled in another scholar who could provide them with a modified interpretation. (Again another thing I have often said, if scholar 'A' says it should be this way there will always be another scholar who says it should be that way).

in order to refute you, we must establish, "what is Islam." how do we do that? let's let the Messenger of Allah, as recounted by Emiru Mumineen, Abu Hafs, Umar ibn Al Khataab:

"While we were sitting with the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, a man came up to us whose clothes were extremely white, whose hair was extremely black, upon whom traces of traveling could not be seen, and whom none of us knew, until he sat down close to the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, so that he rested his knees upon his knees and placed his two hands upon his thighs and said, 'Muhammad, tell me about Islam.' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'Islam is that you witness that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and you establish the prayer, and you give the Zakat, and you fast Ramadan, and you perform the hajj of the House if you are able to take a way to it.' He said, 'You have told the truth,' and we were amazed at him asking him and [then] telling him that he told the truth. He said, 'Tell me about Iman.' He said, 'That you affirm Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day, and that you affirm the Decree, the good of it and the bad of it.' He said, 'You have told the truth.' He said, 'Tell me about Ihsan.' He said, 'That you worship Allah as if you see Him, for if you don't see Him then truly He sees you.' He said, 'Tell me about the Hour.' He said, 'The one asked about it knows no more than the one asking.' He said, 'Then tell me about its tokens.' He said, 'That the female slave should give birth to her mistress, and you see poor, naked, barefoot shepherds of sheep and goats competing in making tall buildings.' He went away, and I remained some time. Then he asked, 'Umar, do you know who the questioner was?' I said, 'Allah and His Messenger know best.' He said, 'He was Jibreel who came to you to teach you your deen'." (Narrated by Muslim)

Islam, as defined by Muhammad Rasool Allah, Peace be upon him is:

'Islam is that you witness that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and you establish the prayer, and you give the Zakat, and you fast Ramadan, and you perform the hajj of the House if you are able to take a way to it

THAT is Islam and i reckon that the VAST MAJORITY of Muslims know this!

what you are concerned about is an issue of Fiqh, and in Islam there is a rational of fiqh for almost EVERY ASPECT of life. but Fiqh is derived from Qur'an, Sunnah, Tafseer & Hadeeth as understood by the Companions of the Messenger, May Allah be pleased with them.

when it comes to the fiqh of an issue, of course scholarship, or lack of it, will vary considerably from person to person. Fiqh is the equivalent to the entire law code of a country. is there a single non-Muslim country where ALL of the inhabitants know the entire law code? or do they turn to attorneys for assistance in that arena? what you are saying is that non-Muslims are idiots and therefore depend on lawyers, BUT Muslims, for some unexplained reason, should know their law code in it's entirety! should i presume that you feel they should know this as they exit the womb?

the above Hadeeth is the Hadeeth of Jibreel, it is the 2nd of Imam An Nawawi's 40 Hadeeth. only 1 Hadeeth precedes it:

HADITH 1
On the authority of Omar bin Al-Khattab, who said : I heared the messenger of Allah salla Allah u alihi wa sallam say :

"Actions are but by intention and every man shall have but that which he intended. Thus he whose migration was for Allah and His messenger, his migration was for Allah and His messenger, and he whose migration was to achieve some worldly benefit or to take some woman in marriage, his migration was for that for which he migrated." related by Bukhari and Muslim

you don't read about Islam to learn Islam, quite the opposite actually. that is why you don't understand it.

ciao

[Rabi'ya]

you don't read about Islam to learn Islam, quite the opposite actually. that is why you don't understand it.

ciao

:sl:

What, in your opinion, is the best way to learn about Islam? Following others?

[kashmirshazad]

probably because pakistani's in the UK are not very well informed about islam

Another paki basher, you lot are the type who will cuss Pakis or Indians, and then go and lick the feet of the Saudis.

[aadil77]

Another paki basher, you lot are the type who will cuss Pakis or Indians, and then go and lick the feet of the Saudis.

LOL, Brother as a pakistani myself, I speak on behalf of all the cultural crap that us pakistani's just cannot leave, we're so stuck into pak culture we don't know what is culture and what is islam, yes pakistani's are changing Alhamdulillah, but there is a long way to go

I don't give a crap about the saudis, I'm not nationalistic in any way

[GuestFellow]

probably because pakistani's in the UK are not very well informed about islam

Another paki basher, you lot are the type who will cuss Pakis or Indians, and then go and lick the feet of the Saudis.

I'm Pakistani too but brother aadil77 is right. Most Pakistanis living in the UK don't know much about Islam.

[aamirsaab]

I'd like to reiterate what Woodrow has already stated: noone is perfect and noone knows everything about Islam. Example: I know compared to the average muslim, a fair amount about Islam, whether it be legal matters, finance or a bit of history. But I didn't always know any of that (and there is a lot I still don't know at all), I certainly wasn't born with that knowledge and it wasn't always easily available for the majority of cases.

You know about inheritance because you learnt about it most likely on this very forum through lengthy discussions with other muslims [like say moi]. But, not everyone has access to that information. I didn't have access to it until I bought a book about it (which I shall keep shamelessly plugging it [hit the link in my sig!] until every member I speak with on this forum has purchased it!).

[GuestFellow]

^

:sl:

I'm gonna get that book.

[kashmirshazad]

I'm Pakistani too but brother aadil77 is right. Most Pakistanis living in the UK don't know much about Islam.

Salam

Brother, I agree with you to a certain extent. I still believe that were it not for Pakistanis arriving in the UK then there would not have been any muslims here at all. And Allah (swt) knows best.

[Thinker]

Quick question:
Why on EARTH do you keep pointing out they are Pakistani? :/

Because In the programme, it was pointed out that Islamic inheritance law demanded a portion be left to the parents and the parents were a part of the programme giving their views and at a point in time when the couple were showing discomfort with the deal the (Pakistani) parents said, "well that's they was it happens in your village in Pakistan and they don't have any problems with it." They didn't say, "that's what God commanded" they said what they said inferring that the couple should be doing it because that's the way it's done in Pakistan. Also, I believe that stating the ethnic origin of the Muslim couple (albeit through their parents) it give additional information as to the shade of Islam they follow (now I know your all going to say that Islam is Islam but I've formed the view that Muslims from different countries have different shades of Islam possibly because (like it or not) they mix up tradition and culture with Islam.

Thinker, you can't judge someone on how islamic they 'look'!

Nonsense - of course you can! If I see a Muslim man with the fist long beard wearing the flowing robes I make a different judgement than the Muslims dressed in 'western' clothes. And, if I see a Muslim woman wearing the niqab / burka right down to her hands being covered I make a different judgment than if I see a Muslim woman with her hair uncovered etc. And, both I and you make judgments about everybody we see (Muslim or non-Muslim) based on how they appear.

:sl:
Thinker, I understand how you might draw this conclusion but it is important you keep studying the religion and try not to draw final conclusions. Continually keeping an open mind will help you a lot.

Wise words, which I believe, if applied, would be helpful for lots of us. :-)

probably because pakistani's in the UK are not very well informed about islam

That's unfair and uncalled for - shame.

Another paki basher, you lot are the type who will cuss Pakis or Indians, and then go and lick the feet of the Saudis.

That's unfair and uncalled for - shame.

[kashmirshazad]

That's unfair and uncalled for - shame.

Its not racisT or unfair, when the person saying it belongs to the said ethnic group. In this case from one pakistani to another.

[aamirsaab]

Its not racisT or unfair, when the person saying it belongs to the said ethnic group. In this case from one pakistani to another.

He didn't actually say it was racist and there was certainly no need to call anyone a pakibasher.

Now, shall we get back on topic?

[purple]

:sl:
I know what the Quran say about the will. And I used think it is unfair how the money is spilt. However, I did my research and found that the parent can actually split equally if they wanted to. The parents can choose to give their son more, but it is not a must. The minimum share is half for woman. I think what the couple did was fairly reasonably.

Allah has stated three types of shares for a woman's inheritance as follows:
1. A woman will have an equal share as that of the man.
2. A woman will have an equal share to that of the man, or a little less.
3. A woman will have half the share of a man.

http://www.womeninislam.ws/en/miscon...heritance.aspx

[britpak69]

Interesting thread of discussion, but how many of you actually watched the programme??
I actually know the family that were involved and a lot of the negative comments are way off the mark. Making a Will is not a simplistic step as some think, actually its a very complicated process usually requiring the assistance of people with specialised knowledge.
The programme is still available on BBC i-player for a few days so i would suggest that you watch it and then decide.
The dilemma for the couple was whether to take the Qur'an literally or to try and understand its context. I hope you all are able to know the importance of context and the dangers of isolating Quranic verses??

[Dagless]

I'm Pakistani too but brother aadil77 is right. Most Pakistanis living in the UK don't know much about Islam.

No more or less than any other ethnic group I'll wager.

[Ansariyah]

Salam

Brother, I agree with you to a certain extent. I still believe that were it not for Pakistanis arriving in the UK then there would not have been any muslims here at all. And Allah (swt) knows best.

Your blind nationalism/propaganda is not appreciated here.^o) This is a muslim forum, people from all over the world come here to learn.

[Neelofar]

What has this turned into?!

p.s thinker, a woman who is dressed in full parda/jabaa compared to a woman who does not have her head covered, may actually know more about Islam than the lady who is wearing the correct Islamic attire, thus you cannot judge someone by how Islamic they 'look'. Peacee

[AhlaamBella]

Interesting thread of discussion, but how many of you actually watched the programme??
I actually know the family that were involved and a lot of the negative comments are way off the mark. Making a Will is not a simplistic step as some think, actually its a very complicated process usually requiring the assistance of people with specialised knowledge.
The programme is still available on BBC i-player for a few days so i would suggest that you watch it and then decide.
The dilemma for the couple was whether to take the Qur'an literally or to try and understand its context. I hope you all are able to know the importance of context and the dangers of isolating Quranic verses??

My husband and Mother-in-law watched it last night. My husband was very disappointed with the conclusion. He said the family began the programme by saying how Islam was their life, yet their concluding plan of action was very distant from the Islamic teachings, even the imam/scholar told them what they had decided goes against what they read. By husband was very put out as Dawah with his mother took a hit due to the family's actions.

And before anyone pounces on me, these are my husbands thoughts NOT mine. I was feeding the baby and only caught snippets of the programme and therefore don't feel qualified to give my own opinion on the family's actions. My opinion is only this: You cannot judge that Most Muslims Don't Know Islam by the way things were handled by ONE family on ONE programme.

[Zafran]

salaam

Just saw it you can watch it on Iplayer if you live in the UK - the parents were actually good muslims - they just didnt know about wills. They are by far not ignorant of Islam the way Thinker likes to bring it up - 70% people in the UK dont have wills when they die - clearly shows you that not knowing about wills is not just a muslim problem.
peace

[britpak69]

'even the imam/scholar told them what they had decided goes against what they read.'

There seems to be a misunderstanding as to who the scholar was in this programme?! I thought it was quite clear.
The scholar was not at the dinner table, that was a br who specialises in making Islamic Wills. The scholar was Prof Ramadan whom the couple met in the local Masjid.

[AhlaamBella]

'even the imam/scholar told them what they had decided goes against what they read.'

There seems to be a misunderstanding as to who the scholar was in this programme?! I thought it was quite clear.
The scholar was not at the dinner table, that was a br who specialises in making Islamic Wills. The scholar was Prof Ramadan whom the couple met in the local Masjid.

If you would please carefully read my above post I didn't actually watch the programme. So the expert in islamic wills said it not the imaam. I believe my point still stands. either way they seemed to have distanced from the teachings

[جوري]

Nonsense - of course you can! If I see a Muslim man with the fist long beard wearing the flowing robes I make a different judgement than the Muslims dressed in 'western' clothes.

Then you're out for a few shocks because some of us in 'western style' clothes are probably some of the staunchest Muslims.. we'll come at you in all shapes, colors, different cultures, and clothing style, so you're probably safer around a niqabi Muslimah than someone such as myself!
I think you're superficial and seek the superficial and expect the superficial so naturally that is what you'll get!

all the best!

[Dagless]

I just finished watching the program and am in complete disbelief at how inaccurate "thinker"'s comments were. In fact I would say it borders on deliberate lying. Let's go through the main points:

This ‘professional’ couple were shocked to discover that the Qur’an dictates that their assets should be split differently (as we here all know how).

I have been looking at Islam for only a couple of years and I encountered the inheritance question a long time ago so why did I know it and they didn’t?

Not only did the couple already know what was in the Quran but they THEMSELVES showed the presenter!!

That confirmed to me that most Muslims trundle along through life dressing like Muslims and doing what they do thinking they are Muslims but really don’t have a clue about Islam and what it teaches and dictates in terms of how they live their lives.

I obviously don't know the couple but I imagine most people would say they were a good Muslim couple. They seemed to know a great deal about their religion and had a real desire to practice it properly (masha'Allah).

At the end of the programme they sat round a dinner table, with their friends and family and an Imam. Their (Pakistani) parents and Imam told them that is they it must be (according to the Qur’an) and they and their friends pleaded - but we’re now in 21st century UK their must be another interpretation appropriate for the 21st century.

There was indeed an imam at the table but he did not speak during the show. The person you think was an imam was actually a solicitor who had dealings with sharia compliant wills. They did not plead either. Their friends made a few comments about how it shouldn't be applicable in todays world but the couple themselves were quite content to sit there listening.

And for those interested what was the outcome? They wheeled in another scholar who could provide them with a modified interpretation. (Again another thing I have often said, if scholar 'A' says it should be this way there will always be another scholar who says it should be that way).

Yes, because scholar A was not actually a scholar, he was a solictor! The scholar they "wheeled in" was Dr. Tariq Ramadan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_Ramadan) :D

The end result was:
- If one of them died, the house would be put in a trust so that the other could live there until either they sold it or died. At this point it would be divided up as per the Quran.
- The money would be split evenly between the children until they were adults. At this point the boy would be given twice the inheritance IF he agreed to the Islamic responsibilities which came with that.

This was agreed to be valid by Dr. Ramadan.
It may not have pleased everyone but it was far from what they wanted. It says a lot that they made the sacrifice for the sake of their religion. They could just as easily have done what they wanted.

I have long suspected that most Muslims have a very superficial understanding of Islam and this programme has confirmed it.

What say you?

I say that you sir, are a liar! ;) and would encourage those who've read "thinker"'s rubbish to actually watch the program on iplayer. I'm sure you will be pleasantly surprised.

[Ramadhan]

I say that you sir, are a liar! ;) and would encourage those who've read "thinker"'s rubbish to actually watch the program on iplayer. I'm sure you will be pleasantly surprised.

My mistake in not actually watching the program and just believed in his words.
This teach me not to take news from non-muslims at face value.

I was suggesting thinker to change his username to not_thinker, but maybe in light of this, it should be "not_thinker_as_well_as_a_liar"

[sabr*]

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

Surah Hujurat 49:6

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo in jaakum fasiqun binabain fatabayyanoo an tuseeboo qawman bijahalatin fatusbihoo AAala ma faAAaltum nadimeena

49:6 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! If a wicked person comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth, lest ye harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what ye have done.

[strevel]

So many of us are non Muslims. What are the requirements that you speak of for the separation of assets?

Than you,
Don

[Ramadhan]

So many of us are non Muslims. What are the requirements that you speak of for the separation of assets?

Can you clarify what you were asking?

[abjad]

I have long suspected that most Muslims have a very superficial understanding of Islam and this programme has confirmed it.

And you have seconded that confirmation //eh!!!

what i say
asalaam aleykum

Now be kind and help me (i have joined this forum on time)to learn what is Islam...

please am anxious to hear your valuable understanding of Islam...i see you are agnostic, but that is fair for me u know why Because i know where u are and what are Thinking....as comparing tho the hypocrite...u could (i mean to say there possibility)of lowering your chin and sincerely bow.
my English is not good so do think too much; but try to understand me.
thank you

[AhlaamBella]

I was suggesting thinker to change his username to not_thinker, but maybe in light of this, it should be "not_thinker_as_well_as_a_liar"

Unnecessary brother.

True, thinker has not... thought things through before posting. but i like to think that, as muslims, we correct him in a gracious manor and not use petty insults.

[abjad]

asalaam aleykum

I dont think that will make any good
none can change any ones nature, we have eyes, and hearts of course the picture 'speaks'
what will u tell me if that pic with palm holding that chin, thinking as...it could be my evolution is from human-as because humans say from me(i.e)that pic...
so one i had a debate similar with the so called be be see- and we came with agreement that...those who accept that our origin is from that pic, will hang a huge portrait similar the said pic and below note.........my great great great great great grand father... and it was agreed.

what we ought to try is at least convey him the message as what is "Islam"

[abjad]

THE ESSENTIALITY OF KNOWLEDGE FOR BEING A MUSLIM

The greatest favour of Allah

Brethren-in-Islam!

Every Muslim sincerely believes that the greatest boon of Allah in this world is Islam. He feels grateful to Him for having included him in the Ummah of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) and for having bestowed upon him the blessings of Islam. Allah Himself has reckoned this as His greatest boon to His servants as is mentioned in the Qur'an:

"This day have I perfected your deen (way of life) for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you Al-Islam as deen."

(Al-Qur'an 5:3)

Obligation for the favour

It is obligatory for you to render Allah His due because of the favour He has conferred on you. Whosoever does not render one his due for his favour, is an ungrateful person. And the worst possible ungratefulness on the part of man is to forget what he owes to God.

Now you may ask as to how can one render Allah His due for His favour to us? In reply I have to say that since Allah has included you in the Ummah of Muhammad (peace be on him) the best form of gratitude for this favour of His, is to become the sincere followers of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). Since God has included you in the Muslim community the only way for you to reciprocate this kindness is to become full-fledged Muslims. In no other way can you render what is due to Allah for this immense favour by Him. And if you do not render this due, the punishment for this ungratefulness will be as great as is the favour of Allah. May Allah save all of us from this punishment! Amen.

First step to become Muslim

After this you will ask: how can a man become a Muslim in the true sense of the term? The answer to this question requires adequate details and I shall deal with each and every part of it with full elucidation in my lectures on coming Fridays. But in today's address, I shall explain to you that point which is of primary importance and which can be termed as the first and foremost step in this direction.

Is Muslim the name of a race?

Please strain your mind to think as to what actually does the word Muslim, you use, signify?

Does man bring Islam with him when he is born? Is a person Muslim because he is a son or grandson of a Muslim? Is a Muslim born as Muslim just as a Brahmin's son is born as Brahmin, or a Rajput's son as Rajput, or s Shudra's son as a Shudra? Is Muslim the name of a race or nation just as Englishmen? And just as a Jat is Jat because of being born in the Jat community, is a Muslim in the same way a Muslim for being born in a community which is called Muslim? What answers will you give to the questions, I have asked? You will surely reply: "No sir, such a man is not called Muslim. A Muslim is not a Muslim because of belonging to a particular racial group but because of accepting Islam, and if he renounces Islam, he ceases to be a Muslim. Any person who may be a Brahmin or a Rajput, an Englishman or a Jat, a Punjabi or a Negro, will be incorporated in the Muslim community on accepting Islam, while another person born in a Muslim home is expelled from the Muslim community if he gives up Islam, though he may be the son of a Sayyid or a Pathan".

Well, gentlemen! you will surely give the above answer to my questions. So now this fact has been established from your own answer that the greatest boon of God i.e., the boon of your being a Muslim, which you enjoy, is not a racial asset which you automatically inherit from your parents and which clings to you mechanically all your life whether you bother about it or not, but that it is a boon for acquiring which you must make efforts. If you make an endeavour for it then you can acquire it and if you don't care for it, it can also be snatched away from you. May God forbid.

Meaning of accepting Islam

Now let us go ahead. You say that a man becomes Muslim by accepting Islam. The question is : What does the acceptance of Islam signify? Does it mean that whoever makes a verbal profession: "I am Muslim or I have accepted Islam", becomes a Muslim? Or does it mean that just as a Brahmin worshipper recites a few mantras of Sanskrit without understanding them, if in the same way a man utters some phrases of Arabic without understanding them, he then and there becomes Muslim? Now you may tell what reply will you give to this question. Naturally you will answer that the meaning of accepting Islam is that a man should consciously, and deliberately accept what has been taught by Muhammad (peace be upon him) and act accordingly. Whosoever does this, is a Muslim and whosoever does not do this, is not a Muslim.

First requirement-knowledge

From this answer of yours the fact automatically comes to light that al-Islam is firstly the name of knowledge and then the name of putting that knowledge into practice. A man can be a Brahmin without having knowledge because he is born as a Brahmin and remains a Brahmin. So also a Jat can be Jat though he be bereft of knowledge because he is born as a Jat and remains a Jat all his life. But a man cannot become a Muslim without acquiring knowledge because he does not become a Muslim from birth but from knowledge. Unless he comes to know what is the teaching of Hazrat Muhammad (peace be upon him), how can he affirm faith in it and how can he act according to it? And if he has not affirmed faith knowingly and after full understanding of it, how can he become a Muslim? So it is clear that it is impossible to become a Muslim and remain a Muslim while in a state of ignorance. Whosoever is born in a Muslim home, bears a Muslim like name, dresses like a Muslim, and calls himself a Muslim, is in reality not a Muslim. But that person alone is a Muslim in the real sense who knows what Islam stands for and affirms faith in it with full consciousness. The real difference between a Kafir and a Muslim is not that of a name, that one is Ram Parshad and the other one is 'Abdullah, and so one is a Kafir and the other is a Muslim. Similarly, the real difference between a Kafir and a Muslim is not that of dress also, that one wears dhoti and the other pajamas, and so the former is a Kafir and the latter a Muslim. But the real difference between the two is that of knowledge. The one is a Kafir because he does not know what relation has God with him and what relation he was with God, and what is the right path for him to lead his life in the world in accordance with the wish of God. If a born Muslim too is ignorant in this respect, then tell me on what ground do you differentiate between him and a Kafir and why do you say that one is a Kafir and the other is a Muslim.

Gentlemen! Please listen carefully to the point I am stressing and reflect over it calmly. You must understand it thoroughly that to obtain or to be deprived of the greatest boon of Allah, on which you express thanks and gratefulness to Him, depends entirely on knowledge. If there is no knowledge, you cannot at all get this boon. Even if you have a little portion of it, then due to ignorance there is always the risk of losing the magnificent gift. The recipient, only due to simple-mindedness, will be under the impression that he is a Muslim while in fact he is not. The likeness of that person who is totally unaware of the difference between Islam and Kufr and the incongruity between Islam and Shirk, is as the likeness of one who is walking in darkness on a track. May be that while following a straight line his steps swerve to another path and he be unaware of this deviation from the right course. And it is also likely that he may meet a Dajjal on the way who may tell him: " O sonny! You have lost your way in darkness. Come, let me lead you to the destination". The poor wayfarer being enveloped in darkness cannot see with his own eyes as to which is the right path. Therefore unsophistically he will grasp the hand of Dajjal and the latter will lead him astray. These dangers are faced by the wayfarer for he very reason ha he himself does no possess any light and so is incapable of himself observing he road-marks. If he were endowed with light, he will obviously neither lose his way nor be led astray by another person. You may guess from this example that the greatest danger to a Muslim lies in his own ignorance of Islamic teaching and his unawareness of what the Qur'an teaches and what instructions were left by the Holy Prophet (peach be upon him). Due to lack of knowledge he will grope his way and will also be led astray by Dajjals. But if he is blessed with the light of knowledge he will be able to see the plain path of Islam at every step in his life, will discover and avoid the misleading paths of Kufr, Shirk, heresy and immorality, which will intercept him, and whenever an inveigler will meet him on the way he will realize after exchanging a few words with him that he is an evil force and so he should followed.

Importance of knowledge

Brethren! On this knowledge, the necessity of which I am explaining to you, depends yours and your children's being Muslims and remaining as Muslims.
...to be contuned...Insha ALLAH...

[abjad]

Importance of knowledge

Brethren! On this knowledge, the necessity of which I am explaining to you, depends yours and your children's being Muslims and remaining as Muslims. This is not an ordinary thing which may be neglected. You do not show any carelessness in cultivating your land, in irrigating and protecting your crops, in supplying fodder to your cattle and in other work of your profession, simply because if you do so you will be starved to death and will lose a precious thing like life. Then tell me why do you show negligence in acquiring that knowledge on which depends your becoming a Muslim and remaining a Muslim. Does not this entail the danger of losing a precious thing like Iman? Is not Iman dearer than life? Out of the time and labour you spend on things which sustain your life, can you not spend one-tenth part of them on things which protect your Imam?
I do not say that everyone of you should become a Maulvi, read voluminous books and spend ten to twelve years of your life in this pursuit. It is not necessary to read so much to become a Muslim. I only want this much that each one of you should spend only one hour out of the twenty-four hours of day and night in acquiring the knowledge of Deen. At least that much knowledge should be acquired by every Muslim youth, adult and old person as may enable him to understand the essence of the teaching of Qur'an and the purpose for which it was revealed. He should be able to clearly understand the mission of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) with which he came into this world. What was the wrong he wanted to be demolished and what was the right he wished to be established? He should also get acquainted with that particular mode of life which Allah has ordained for Muslims. Not much time is required to acquire this quantum of knowledge. And if Iman is dear to you, it is not so difficult to find one hour per day to acquire it.