I have a question about Quran?

[greenvalley]

Assalam to all,

There are stories of previous Prophets in Quran. (Musa, Yusuf, Yunus and others )
What's the wisdom and lesson in these stories?
Thanks in advance for the answers!

[ayesha.ansari]

Allah has always tell the truth. you can know whatever is in Quran, science has prove it now. whatever is in Quran, you can see th examples in daily life and can understand. also the other holy books can make your idea clear, if you found them in real form which is almost impossible.

[selsebil]

Assalaam Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,

In the All-Wise Qur’an are numerous minor events behind which are concealed universal principles, and which are shown as the tips of general laws. Certain minor incidents in the Qur’an which are mentioned in the form of historical events, are the tips of universal principles.


Addressing every age and every class of people, in its stories and historical narratives, it does not recount one part or one lesson from them, but points out elements of a universal principle, as though it was newly revealed. Particularly its often repeated threats of the wrongdoers, the wrongdoers, and its severe expositions of calamities visited on the heavens and the earth, the punishment for their wrongdoing -through these and the retribution visited on the ‘Ad and Thamud peoples and on Pharaoh- it draws attention to the unequalled wrongs of this century, and through the salvation of prophets like Abraham (PUH) and Moses (PUH) gives consolation to the oppressed believers.

From: http://www.lightofquran.info/11ray.htm (The Tenth Topic)

[abjad]

What's the wisdom and lesson in these stories?

Wa aleykum salaam-wa RahmatuLLAH wa Barakatuhu.

my friend; The wisdom and lesson on those stories never end, but Increases the Faith.

talking about our present state i mean this Ummat Muhammad (s.a.w)
"We are luckiest Ummah" ask me how!
.................................................. ......we got full stories from the beginning of human creation, not to speak about universe.............we have been informed the ERRORS of the Past communities we have been informed even some Prophets like
dhu Nuun Jonah...Yunus?
all this for us to a) Not repeat those errors as for sure will be led to similar "Nakama" they had met.....
we have been informed how to repent instantly should any commit errors such as ....the above Prophet did uttered
"La Illah Ila anta Subhanaka Ini Kuntu mina dhaaliiyn"
..............................
............clearly in the Kuran Kareem..........sura(14-17).......................
Love of lust for women etc.....................
.....Let us imagine............

IF......i repeat IF
A massenger would be; sent after Nabii Mohammad (s.a.w)
what do you think THE MESSAGE WOULD BE LIKE if included
the this Ummat Muhammad?(s.a.w)
how they respond (of course not all but ) we have eyes human eyes not animal eye .

thank you for the question
Good question and am anxious to see all (as Muslims) should give their response.

Wa LLah
Aliym Hakeem

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[paygan]

Allah has always tell the truth. you can know whatever is in Quran, science has prove it now. whatever is in Quran, you can see th examples in daily life and can understand. also the other holy books can make your idea clear, if you found them in real form which is almost impossible.

I think if you have clear understanding of those books with a grounding in the Quran, they will make more sense.

I cannot agree more with this point, science and the Quran are more connected than many will suggest.

[MesMorial]

Salaam;

They followed the Message alone and/or they were patient whilst remembering Allah (SWT).

[DirtyLeo]

...you can know whatever is in Quran, science has prove it now. whatever is in Quran, you can see th examples in daily life and can understand...

Doesn't Quran talk about "jinns"? What is the scientific proof of jinns?

[ayesha.ansari]

ALLAH has brought up many creatures of all types. More things clear from hazrat (name skip from mind) that he made a mosque with the help of jinnat and they have many jinnat in their order to fulfil their demands and help people. They exist but we cannot see them . ALLAH has given them power but they cannot harm us. Most people have different views but that's true that they can't hurt us...

[Ramadhan]

Doesn't Quran talk about "jinns"? What is the scientific proof of jinns?

Jinns are a creation of Allah made from smokeless fire, and therefore are unseen, while angels are made from light.

Current quantum gravity theory speculates that our universe consist of 11 or something dimensions, so jinns may live in the other dimensions.
up to now, no science and technology is able to "prove" them as in detect or catch them.
But it does not mean they do not exist, unless you think our science and technology has reached the pinnacle. A thousand years ago, people could not prove the existence of microbes and atoms through science at that time, but it does not mean microbes and atoms did not exist back then.

Belief in their (angels and jinns) existence is part of the faith. If they are easily presented, it would not be faith would it?

[DirtyLeo]

The poster said:

D...you can know whatever is in Quran, science has prove it now. whatever is in Quran, you can see th examples in daily life and can understand...

And I just gave one example of the things we have no scientific proof what so ever. To start with a supernatural creator.

Will science discover that we share this universe with other beings that we cannot see? Maybe. Just like maybe, we all live in a gigantic computer simulation. We can speculate all day long about the things that may be. Human imagination is a vast ocean after all.

So, going back to my first post, is there any scientific evidence for the existence of the jinns? Or even Allah for that matter?

[Ramadhan]

So, going back to my first post, is there any scientific evidence for the existence of the jinns? Or even Allah for that matter?

Did you even read my post just preceding yours?

[DirtyLeo]

Hi naidamar,

Of course I had read your message. I should've written a longer response.

Jinns are a creation of Allah made from smokeless fire, and therefore are unseen, while angels are made from light.

That's the religious explanation, obviously not a scientific one.

Current quantum gravity theory speculates that our universe consist of 11 or something dimensions, so jinns may live in the other dimensions.

They may. Just like pegasus, leprechauns or even the good old Santa Claus. (I am not saying that with a mocking smile. I am just trying to state that there's no end to speculation outside scientific evidence).

up to now, no science and technology is able to "prove" them as in detect or catch them.
But it does not mean they do not exist, unless you think our science and technology has reached the pinnacle. A thousand years ago, people could not prove the existence of microbes and atoms through science at that time, but it does not mean microbes and atoms did not exist back then.

Well... If they cannot be proven scientifically, with scientific methods than they don't exist. Can we be 100% certain. Probably not but this starts to be the realm of philosophy because there's no 100% truth anywhere. That's why we stick to scientific evidence when it comes to prove something. Otherwise we would have a hard time to convict criminals.

I totally agree that science doesn't know everything but as you put it we know way more than what we used to a few centuries ago. And I'm certain that we know less than we'll know in a few centuries. This doesn't change the fact that some of the things that are the base of religions, such as a supernatural creator, remain scientifically unproven.

Belief in their (angels and jinns) existence is part of the faith. If they are easily presented, it would not be faith would it?

That's exactly my point. They are part of the faith and are not a scientific evidence. Not everything written in Quran can be proven scientifically, starting with Allah (just the point I was making in my first post). The realization of that is the biggest factor in the increasing number of agnostics and atheists that we see around.

[Ramadhan]

They may. Just like pegasus, leprechauns or even the good old Santa Claus. (I am not saying that with a mocking smile. I am just trying to state that there's no end to speculation outside scientific evidence).

I thought you were being serious with your question.
Did you know that your line is only used by amateur atheists?
yawnn....
why did I even waste my time...

Well... If they cannot be proven scientifically, with scientific methods than they don't exist.

Using your logic and reasoning, atoms and microbes did not exist 1,000 years ago.
smart.

That's why we stick to scientific evidence when it comes to prove something. Otherwise we would have a hard time to convict criminals.

Ok, so your yardstick whether something exist or not is scientific evidence.
Now, prove to me that you truly exist.
You can use any scientific method and tools.
If you can't, then you don't exist.

[DirtyLeo]

I thought you were being serious with your question.
Did you know that your line is only used by amateur atheists?
yawnn....
why did I even waste my time...

There's no need to resort to name calling. I've always kept a respectful tone. And I noted, on purpose, that my intent was not to mock as I was simply given examples to imaginary things.

Using your logic and reasoning, atoms and microbes did not exist 1,000 years ago.
smart.

Of course they existed. Maybe they hadn't seen them but they were getting sick, getting infections etc. So microbes had direct scientifically proven effects on people's lives.

Ok, so your yardstick whether something exist or not is scientific evidence.
Now, prove to me that you truly exist.
You can use any scientific method and tools.
If you can't, then you don't exist.

I am a living being. I eat, I go to toilet, I procreate (I have a son). I have a social security number and a passport. Where are you going with this?

At this point, do we both believe that not everything mentioned in the Quran can be scientifically proven?

[peace_maker]

To DirtyLeo

Not everything has a scientific explanation. Or even if it does, maybe some logics have not been discovered just yet.

Do you only believe in science? Science does not believe in God. Do you also believe the same?
The scientific name for us is "homosapiens" and we are categorised under animals. Science believes that we humans evoulved from monkeys. Do you believe that you are actually related to the monkeys?!

Everything may not have a scientific explanation but it does have a reason.

[Woodrow]

The poster said:



And I just gave one example of the things we have no scientific proof what so ever. To start with a supernatural creator.

Will science discover that we share this universe with other beings that we cannot see? Maybe. Just like maybe, we all live in a gigantic computer simulation. We can speculate all day long about the things that may be. Human imagination is a vast ocean after all.

So, going back to my first post, is there any scientific evidence for the existence of the jinns? Or even Allah for that matter?

Probably not by any concepts of scientific evidence known at this time. Lack of evidence does not equate to lack of existence. The existence of many things have not been explained except by the concept of the existence of Allaah(swt) not the least of which are the creation of matter, the existence of life, cognitive self awareness, and miraculous events that have no scientific proof of being possible.

[DirtyLeo]

Not everything has a scientific explanation. Or even if it does, maybe some logics have not been discovered just yet.

That's true. Science doesn't explain everything, for most of them (if not all), not yet. But this is true for the things that we can scientifically theorize. We have life but science hasn't proven how the first living organism came to be (but they are close ;) ). Or we have cancer but science hasn't cured it totally.

Do you only believe in science?

I do believe in science. But this is not like believing in a religion. I do believe in what science says because for something to be scientifically true, it has to be backed by scientific facts and methods.

Science does not believe in God. Do you also believe the same?

This is not entirely true. Or, let me say, this is not I would have put it. God, or any supernatural creator power for that matter, cannot be proven. As we prove things with scientific methods, my statement implicitly relies on science for this proof. If there was any scientific proof for the existence of any god, science would gladly accept it because it would be scientifically proven.

The scientific name for us is "homosapiens" and we are categorised under animals. Science believes that we humans evoulved from monkeys. Do you believe that you are actually related to the monkeys?!

If I may, the evolution doesn't say that we evolved from monkeys but it states your following statement, that we are related to monkeys, as we are related to any other living beings if you go back in time. Humans and other primates share a common ancestor, that is closer in time that our ancestor with, let's say, sharks. This is the only scientifically proven explanation of how simple organisms form more complex life-forms given enough time.

Everything may not have a scientific explanation but it does have a reason.

I am a rational person. I think and need facts and proofs. Assigning reason to various things is a common human trait. In this, children are perfect examples of this: they assign purpose to everything. To cite the famous example: "clouds are 'for raining'", "pointy rocks are 'so animal can scratch on them when they get itchy'". However this doesn't mean that they "have a reason". We perfectly know how clouds form, move etc. Universe is neutral to us and doesn't care about us.

And yes, everything that exists in this universe has a scientific explanation or can scientifically be proven. Science may not have all the answers yet but it is getting there. How else we would separate imaginary from real? As in my example of the beginning of life, science is trying to explain how the first living organism came by, or the age of the universe or what was there before the big bang, but those are all questions asked about scientifically proven things and not some imaginary things that may exist somewhere that we may not be aware of yet.

So I don't believe in things that cannot be scientifically proven and any rational mind shouldn't either.

[Muhaba]

there is lots of wisdom in these stories. not only do they teach a moral lesson but also were a source of encouragement to the Prophet (SAW) and his companions when they were so weak and the unbelievers of Mecca were far stronger than them. additionaly, many of the facts in these stories have been proven historically, like some of the details regarding Prophet Musa (AS) and Prophet Yusuf (AS). some of the details related to these prophets were not the same as in the bible. This shows that that the Quran wasn't copied from the bible. recently it was proven historically that the information given in the Quran is correct and the information given in the bible is incorrect. for example, bible calls the king at the time of Prophet yusuf (AS) pharoah but in the quran he is called "rabb." it was later discovered that the egyptians called their kings pharoahs and that the king at the time of Prophet Yusus AS was not from the egyptian race so he wasn't called pharoah.

other information has also been proven correct in the Quran and in the future as science advances, some other info will also be proven to be correct. and this shows that the Quran is the book of God since noone could have given this information to the Prophet (SAW) except the Knower of the Unseen , that is God.

as for jinns, their existence has been proven. paranormal scientists use devices which detect jinns. at present i don't have the details about these, but you can research it.

[DirtyLeo]

Lack of evidence does not equate to lack of existence.

Philosophically true. Just like "there's not absolute truth" but in practice it does. Our justice system is a good example of that. You have to prove someone guilty of something to convict him. There's a lack of evidence that you committed a crime but it doesn't mean that you haven't so I'll lock you up. I hope you see that it's a false reasoning.

Probably not by any concepts of scientific evidence known at this time.

This is speculation. This may or may not be. For that matter, it may be that Odin created the universe or Zeus. There's not end to maybes.

...miraculous events that have no scientific proof of being possible

There we agree.

History tells us that humanity have assigned divine meaning to various unexplained things. But we now know that a comet is not a miraculous sign from a god or an eclipse doesn't mean that a god is angry with us. Science has been good and relentless at discovering these scientifically experienced unknowns that humanity didn't have a scientific explanation at the time. It's just a matter of time we know, for instance, the truth behind the first living organism, like abiogenesis.

[DirtyLeo]

as for jinns, their existence has been proven. paranormal scientists use devices which detect jinns. at present i don't have the details about these, but you can research it.

Oh! Come on!
I'm looking forward to those proofs, if you're so kind to forward them here.

[YusufNoor]

There's no need to resort to name calling. I've always kept a respectful tone. And I noted, on purpose, that my intent was not to mock as I was simply given examples to imaginary things.



Of course they existed. Maybe they hadn't seen them but they were getting sick, getting infections etc. So microbes had direct scientifically proven effects on people's lives.



I am a living being. I eat, I go to toilet, I procreate (I have a son). I have a social security number and a passport. Where are you going with this?

At this point, do we both believe that not everything mentioned in the Quran can be scientifically proven?

when did you have the child you claim as an offspring dna tested?

[DirtyLeo]

Hmmm... For some reason I cannot edit my post so I apologize for the typos

but in practice it does.

This should read: but in practice it is not.

There's not end to maybes.

This should read: There's no end to maybes

[Dagless]

Science may not have all the answers yet but it is getting there.

So I don't believe in things that cannot be scientifically proven and any rational mind shouldn't either.

Isn't this a contradiction? You say science may not have all the answers but you do not believe things which cannot be scientifically proven. Therefore you reject things which maybe true but cannot be explained. Science is only a description of what may or may not hold to be true. It is not itself a truth.

I don't see the theory of everything popping up with no purpose or creator to be a rational stance, you may think different but that's your choice. People who are Muslim have all the proof they need to believe, they don't need you to give us pointers on what is or is not considered correct... especially in a thread which is on a completely different topic.

[DirtyLeo]

when did you have the child you claim as an offspring dna tested?

If someone needed a scientific proof about it, for instance in a court case, that could be done easily, with scientific methods.

[YusufNoor]

If someone needed a scientific proof about it, for instance in a court case, that could be done easily, with scientific methods.

so, all this time you have believed this child is your progeny without EVER seeing ANY scientific PROOF for it?

really?

so....how could that happen? you used logic and reason?

this...child, does he love you? do you love him?

[DirtyLeo]

Isn't this a contradiction? You say science may not have all the answers but you do not believe things which cannot be scientifically proven. Therefore you reject things which maybe true but cannot be explained. Science is only a description of what may or may not hold to be true. It is not itself a truth.

Nope! This is not a contradiction. I refuse to believe in the existence of Unicorns or Leprechauns because there is no scientific proof that they exist. However there are many things that we scientifically experience that haven't had a scientific explanation yet (I keep using the example of origin of life because this is the one usually used in religious discussions). Science hasn't fully explained it yet (even though there are many things that's come close) but I know that there's life around me, it is scientifically proven that there's life, but it's origin is yet to be explained fully.

Just like if there is a scientific evidence for a supernatural creator tomorrow, I'll believe in the existence of this creator regardless if science can explain its origins.

I don't see the theory of everything popping up with no purpose or creator to be a rational stance, you may think different but that's your choice. People who are Muslim have all the proof they need to believe, they don't need you to give us pointers on what is or is not considered correct... especially in a thread which is on a completely different topic.

One doesn't need a proof to have 'faith', that's the tricky thing with it. But a rational mind should need proof.

I apologize if I caused this thread to drift to something else. I just reacted to an earlier post that claims everything in Quran can be scientifically proven, which is totally wrong.

[DirtyLeo]

so, all this time you have believed this child is your progeny without EVER seeing ANY scientific PROOF for it?

really?

so....how could that happen? you used logic and reason?

this...child, does he love you? do you love him?

I slept with my wife to make a baby. We learnt that she was pregnant a few weeks later. If she cheated on me, my son may not be my biological son. But there's a baby at home. I can scientifically prove the existence of the baby at home. My wife is his mother and it's very likely that I am the father. In the very unlikely event that I am not, I'm certain he has a father because making a baby requires a sperm.

It is not the same with God, though. Even if you love him, you feel his presence you cannot prove its existence. When one believes in a creator, one dishes out all logic and believes in an unexplained supernatural power that leaves no scientific evidence what so ever.

[YusufNoor]

I slept with my wife to make a baby. We learnt that she was pregnant a few weeks later. If she cheated on me, my son may not be my biological son. But there's a baby at home. I can scientifically prove the existence of the baby at home. My wife is his mother and it's very likely that I am the father. In the very unlikely event that I am not, I'm certain he has a father because making a baby requires a sperm.

It is not the same with God, though. Even if you love him, you feel his presence you cannot prove its existence. When one believes in a creator, one dishes out all logic and believes in an unexplained supernatural power that leaves no scientific evidence what so ever.

you still haven't answered my question as to WHY you could have believed the child is yours without proof. you have given reasons to why without it, but not with it.

does your wife love you?

do you love her?

do you love the child that you believe is your progeny?

does the universe exist?

if a baby requires sperm to be created, what is required for the universe to be created?

[DirtyLeo]

you still haven't answered my question as to WHY you could have believed the child is yours without proof. you have given reasons to why without it, but not with it.

I have no reason to doubt my wife. We made a baby and he's mine.

But if you came to me and said "I'm the father of your child" in a court then you'd have your proof without problem because we are still talking about scientifically provable things.

Your analogy may have held true if we had evidence for a creator but we didn't know if it was Allah or Yahwe or Zeus. Then you chould have said "I don't care, I consider it mine, it's Allah"

does your wife love you?

do you love her?

do you love the child that you believe is your progeny?

does the universe exist?

if a baby requires sperm to be created, what is required for the universe to be created?

All those questions can be answered scientifically because we are talking about scientifically proven beings: my wife, myself, my son, universe, sperm etc. If science lacks an explanation, for example if someone had a one-in-a-million-seen illness, it will probably have an explanation in the future because we are still talking about a scientifically proven illness.

If you're trying to draw similarities of an unanswered question with the lack of evidence in favour of a creator or djinns or angels, this is not working. Science doesn't have to answer about the existence of imaginary things. There's no end to imagination. Because we are not arguing about the origin of a proven creator, we are arguing about the proof that the djinns (or angels, or Allah) exist.

[YusufNoor]

I have no reason to doubt my wife. We made a baby and he's mine.

why do you accept that this child is your without the proof?

But if you came to me and said "I'm the father of your child" in a court then you'd have your proof without problem because we are still talking about scientifically provable things.

Your analogy may have held true if we had evidence for a creator but we didn't know if it was Allah or Yahwe or Zeus. Then you chould have said "I don't care, I consider it mine, it's Allah"

that's a different question

All those questions can be answered scientifically because we are talking about scientifically proven beings: my wife, myself, my son, universe, sperm etc. If science lacks an explanation, for example if someone had a one-in-a-million-seen illness, it will probably have an explanation in the future because we are still talking about a scientifically proven illness.

if ALL of these things can be proven, how did the universe come into being?

If you're trying to draw similarities of an unanswered question with the lack of evidence in favour of a creator or djinns or angels, this is not working. Science doesn't have to answer about the existence of imaginary things. There's no end to imagination. Because we are not arguing about the origin of a proven creator, we are arguing about the proof that the djinns (or angels, or Allah) exist.

i'm not arguing, just asking question like you are

we must figure out where we can agree in order to move on

btw, show me the scientific proof that your wife loves you.

what was required for the universe to come into existence?

[Woodrow]

Philosophically true. Just like "there's not absolute truth" but in practice it does. Our justice system is a good example of that. You have to prove someone guilty of something to convict him. There's a lack of evidence that you committed a crime but it doesn't mean that you haven't so I'll lock you up. I hope you see that it's a false reasoning.



This is speculation. This may or may not be. For that matter, it may be that Odin created the universe or Zeus. There's not end to maybes.



There we agree.

History tells us that humanity have assigned divine meaning to various unexplained things. But we now know that a comet is not a miraculous sign from a god or an eclipse doesn't mean that a god is angry with us. Science has been good and relentless at discovering these scientifically experienced unknowns that humanity didn't have a scientific explanation at the time. It's just a matter of time we know, for instance, the truth behind the first living organism, like abiogenesis.

Lack of evidence does not equate to lack of existence.

Philosophically true. Just like "there's not absolute truth" but in practice it does. Our justice system is a good example of that. You have to prove someone guilty of something to convict him. There's a lack of evidence that you committed a crime but it doesn't mean that you haven't so I'll lock you up. I hope you see that it's a false reasoning.

I do agree that it is our burden to prove the Existence of Allaah(swt) However, what I accept as evidence most likely is not acceptable as evidence to you. The difficulty here is that by the nature of what we believe Allaah(swt) to be transcends the physical world. So here we are at a bit of a quandary. For if Allaah(swt) could be measured, qualified and quantified He would not have the Attributes of what we believe Allaah(swt) to have. The only option is for us to convince you our reasons for believing in Allaah(swt) is true. Or for you to prove to us that all we believe Allaah(swt) to have done, was done by a scientifically provable method. A difficult if not impossible task for both of us.

Probably not by any concepts of scientific evidence known at this time.

This is speculation. This may or may not be. For that matter, it may be that Odin created the universe or Zeus. There's not end to maybes.

Simple agreement is valid here. The reason we have to believe that the only true God is Allaah(swt) is because we believe he has revealed himself and has told us so. A statement you do not agree with. No proof in either direction, just maybe's on both our parts.

...miraculous events that have no scientific proof of being possible

There we agree.

History tells us that humanity have assigned divine meaning to various unexplained things. But we now know that a comet is not a miraculous sign from a god or an eclipse doesn't mean that a god is angry with us. Science has been good and relentless at discovering these scientifically experienced unknowns that humanity didn't have a scientific explanation at the time. It's just a matter of time we know, for instance, the truth behind the first living organism, like abiogenesis.

True and discoveries are found all the time. At the moment you have no reason to accept Divine revelation as a fact. Neither you nor I know what will be acceptable fact in the future. At the moment we who accept Divine revelation as fact do so with a conviction equally strong as your conviction that divine revelation is not a fact. To a certain extent we both find ourselves basing at least some of our beliefs on faith alone.

[DirtyLeo]

we must figure out where we can agree in order to move on

btw, show me the scientific proof that your wife loves you.

She puts up with me :D. And many things like we are good friends, we enjoy many things together, we decided to have a child together etc. The usual things that people in love do.

Of course, love is a subjective thing and may mean different things to different people.

Love for my parents is not exactly the same as my love towards my son or my wife or a good friend or your love for Islam or Allah. They represent different things.

what was required for the universe to come into existence?

I apologize because I'm going to repeat myself. Science never claims that it has all the answers. But it is getting more and more of those.

Now, before you go into a "A-ha" moment, obviously this applies to scientifically provable things. We're still talking about our universe, which is around us.

The origin of life is up there with the origin of our universe and cure for cancer. Science will get to there eventually. A lot of people are working on them. But all these things have scientific evidences. God, Allah, jinns, angels don't.

[YusufNoor]

She puts up with me :D. And many things like we are good friends, we enjoy many things together, we decided to have a child together etc. The usual things that people in love do.

Of course, love is a subjective thing and may mean different things to different people.

Love for my parents is not exactly the same as my love towards my son or my wife or a good friend or your love for Islam or Allah. They represent different things.

so...you CAN'T prove any of the love stuff?


I apologize because I'm going to repeat myself. Science never claims that it has all the answers. But it is getting more and more of those.

Now, before you go into a "A-ha" moment, obviously this applies to scientifically provable things. We're still talking about our universe, which is around us.

The origin of life is up there with the origin of our universe and cure for cancer. Science will get to there eventually. A lot of people are working on them. But all these things have scientific evidences. God, Allah, jinns, angels don't.

so, you DO believe that life HAD an origin?

if a baby has "requirements" to come into being, is it safe to assume that the "origins of life" require an "Originator of that life?"

[DirtyLeo]

Philosophically true. Just like "there's not absolute truth" but in practice it does. Our justice system is a good example of that. You have to prove someone guilty of something to convict him. There's a lack of evidence that you committed a crime but it doesn't mean that you haven't so I'll lock you up. I hope you see that it's a false reasoning.

I do agree that it is our burden to prove the Existence of Allaah(swt) However, what I accept as evidence most likely is not acceptable as evidence to you. The difficulty here is that by the nature of what we believe Allaah(swt) to be transcends the physical world. So here we are at a bit of a quandary. For if Allaah(swt) could be measured, qualified and quantified He would not have the Attributes of what we believe Allaah(swt) to have. The only option is for us to convince you our reasons for believing in Allaah(swt) is true. Or for you to prove to us that all we believe Allaah(swt) to have done, was done by a scientifically provable method. A difficult if not impossible task for both of us.



This is speculation. This may or may not be. For that matter, it may be that Odin created the universe or Zeus. There's not end to maybes.

Simple agreement is valid here. The reason we have to believe that the only true God is Allaah(swt) is because we believe he has revealed himself and has told us so. A statement you do not agree with. No proof in either direction, just maybe's on both our parts.



There we agree.

History tells us that humanity have assigned divine meaning to various unexplained things. But we now know that a comet is not a miraculous sign from a god or an eclipse doesn't mean that a god is angry with us. Science has been good and relentless at discovering these scientifically experienced unknowns that humanity didn't have a scientific explanation at the time. It's just a matter of time we know, for instance, the truth behind the first living organism, like abiogenesis.

True and discoveries are found all the time. At the moment you have no reason to accept Divine revelation as a fact. Neither you nor I know what will be acceptable fact in the future. At the moment we who accept Divine revelation as fact do so with a conviction equally strong as your conviction that divine revelation is not a fact. To a certain extent we both find ourselves basing at least some of our beliefs on faith alone.

With all due respect, this is not a draw, merely a disagreement.

I respect your beliefs and your right to believe, of course, otherwise I wouldn't be learning about them and reading Quran in the first place. And I enjoy level-headed and respectful discussions because this exposes me to other viewpoints and to learning more, which is always challenging.

But you're reducing science to a belief system, which is absurd. Absurd in the world we live in. Opening the door to the acceptance of a supernatural creator opens the door to the acceptance of anything (and I'm not using anything lightly). Then, any of your claims would carry the same amount of weight as believing that golden tablets are really given to Joseph Smith by an angel.

Thankfully scientific evidences prevent us to fall in that chaos.

[DirtyLeo]

so, you DO believe that life HAD an origin?

Of course, how else we would be here?

if a baby has "requirements" to come into being, is it safe to assume that the "origins of life" require an "Originator of that life?"

Yes but not a supernatural one. That's why we have Abiogenesis.

Regarding all the love-stuff that you mention:

Love is an emotion and you can come up with repeatable tests to measure it.
It is scientifically proven that many hormones in the brain are involved in making feel "in love": oxytocin, vasopressin, testosterone, estrogen. You can measure level of these chemicals in the body to prove if someone is in love.
You can study people using MRI scans. Scientists know that certain areas and brain activity is involved in feeling love.
And you can repeat these things on animals: injecting hormones to a lab animal causes for it to look for pair-bonding and to become aggressive towards other males etc.

No need to pick love in particular. Our emotions are products of our brains. There's nothing but biological equipment in this body of ours. All the emotions are produced by our brains because they favoured or they have favoured our survival during our evolution. And all this is measurable by scientific methods. There's no scientific evidence about the concept of spirit that religions want us to believe either.

[peace_maker]

Of course, how else we would be here?

Do you know why you are here?
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you. I totally believe there is a reason behind every action.
The creation of the universe, the animals, the atmosphere, the surroundings, all these have reasons.
You, me and everyone in this world will not survive for long. But, why? Why do we die when this world is entirely made for us? Because this life is temporary.

Have you ever had situations, when you feel like there's no way out? Didn't you plede to anyone to help you. Oh, and you were helped. By whom? Your mom, dad, friend or wife? But did you really plede to them?
YOU PLEDED TO GOD.
And God helped you through them.

For earning a DOCTOR title, one have to study half their life. Whoops, not study, go through TESTS. And after that many trials, you will finally be a doctor.

Similarly, life is also a test. A TEST BY GOD.
That's why this world has so many ups and downs. If we were to life forever, will there be poverty, crime, dieseases, AND MOST OF ALL, DEATH?!
All these are tests by God.

If you are so RATIONAL, why haven't you put up the thought of your existance?

[Dagless]

Nope! This is not a contradiction. I refuse to believe in the existence of Unicorns or Leprechauns because there is no scientific proof that they exist.

That's not the same thing. Us, the world, the Quran etc. can be taken as evidence of a creator. Whether you accept that evidence is your own choice.

Just like if there is a scientific evidence for a supernatural creator tomorrow, I'll believe in the existence of this creator regardless if science can explain its origins.

One doesn't need a proof to have 'faith', that's the tricky thing with it. But a rational mind should need proof.

Nobody is expected to follow blindly. People follow because there is enough proof which makes sense. Acceptance is an individual thing.

I apologize if I caused this thread to drift to something else. I just reacted to an earlier post that claims everything in Quran can be scientifically proven, which is totally wrong.

I believe the OP was trying to say certain things in the Quran can be scientifically proven. Just because everything cannot be proven scientifically does not make it untrue.

[Ramadhan]

Of course they existed. Maybe they hadn't seen them but they were getting sick, getting infections etc. So microbes had direct scientifically proven effects on people's lives.

This is what I quoted you:

Well... If they cannot be proven scientifically, with scientific methods than they don't exist.

atoms and microbes could not be proven scientifically 1,000 years ago, ergo, they did not exist.

Tell me, which part of it that is incorrect?

You mention people got sick, diarrea 1,000 years ago, but they did not think it was caused by microbes.

I am a living being. I eat, I go to toilet, I procreate (I have a son). I have a social security number and a passport. Where are you going with this?

So you want me to believe you exist just because you say so?

using your standards, this is laughabe.
where are you? I cannot see you?
For all i know, you could be some computer programs written by bored scientists at MIT lab.

Prove to me that you really exist.
oh, picture or video wouldnt do either because it is just easy to manufacture picture and video.

How do I know you exist?

[DirtyLeo]

Do you know why you are here?

Of course. My parents had sex and I was born. As all living beings that's why I came to exist.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you. I totally believe there is a reason behind every action.

Of course we don't have to agree. That's the beauty of a discussion or a debate.

The creation of the universe, the animals, the atmosphere, the surroundings, all these have reasons.

I've already mentioned that in an earlier post. Attaching reasons to things is a human trait, which is clearly visible in children.

You, me and everyone in this world will not survive for long. But, why?

Because our cells decay. The oxygen that gives us life is also burning us slowly.

Why do we die when this world is entirely made for us? Because this life is temporary.

Now... I have the same problem with this statement from two different angles: religious and ecological.

This world is NOT made for us. It does NOT belong to us more that it belongs to the bird on the tree or the frog in the pond. We are living beings just like any other living being. The fact that we acquired conscienceness through evolution doesn't entitle us to see the resources of this world at our disposition.

And this is so arrogant. Typical human thinking! We think we are the center of the universe and the things around us are created for us and they are ours to use and abuse. That's one of the best signs that religions are human-made creations.

Have you ever had situations, when you feel like there's no way out? Didn't you plede to anyone to help you. Oh, and you were helped. By whom? Your mom, dad, friend or wife? But did you really plede to them?
YOU PLEDED TO GOD.
And God helped you through them.

You're asking this question to the wrong person :). I know many more people who pray for things that they never get. Even when you're religious you can see that most prayers are left unanswered. There has been scientific studies on them (most of them organized by religious organizations). There's no scientific evidence what so ever of their power.

But science knows the effect of placebo. So if one believes s/he's going to get better, there's a higher chance that it happens. Giving patients placebo instead of real medicine is shown to have the same effect. We are conditioning our brain to act on our body.

However, funny enough, in another study, they grouped surgery patients into three groups.
1) People prayed for them and the patients knew about it
2) People prayed for them and the patients didn't know about it
3) Nobody prayed for them

Naturally, group 2 and 3 had similar results: praying or not praying didn't change the success of surgery, recovery etc. The strange thing happened with group 1. They did worse, probably because they knew they were prayed for and they thought they were in trouble. A good example of the power of our brain.

Basically, by praying to a supernatural power, you are asking it to bend the rules of the universe for you, and most of the time, at the expense of another person. Your doctor and test example is very good for that. 500 people go through the test only 50 succeeds. But everyone of them prays. Do you see the absurdity of the situation?

When something good comes out of a situation, you thank God for it. But when something bad happens it's not God's fault.

There's an accident. The survivors' families thank God all day long but the victims' families never curse the God for it. Abrahamic religions has even lost this honesty and become totally hypocritical. At least, in earlier belief systems, such as ancient Greek, people thanked their gods as much as they cursed them. Now, if something good happens, it is thanks to God, if it's something bad, it's either a "natural phenomenon" or it's "man"'s fault.

For earning a DOCTOR title, one have to study half their life. Whoops, not study, go through TESTS. And after that many trials, you will finally be a doctor.

Similarly, life is also a test. A TEST BY GOD.
That's why this world has so many ups and downs. If we were to life forever, will there be poverty, crime, dieseases, AND MOST OF ALL, DEATH?!
All these are tests by God.

Without realizing, you're highlighting one of the paradox of modern religions:
- God is all-knowing, all-powerful.
- God sent us here for a test/trial.
- If you combine the first two, you can deduce that God already knows the result of this trial, because he's "all-knowing". In this case, this test is useless because he already know who's good, who's bad, who's going to do what exactly, who's an atheist etc.

If you are so RATIONAL, why haven't you put up the thought of your existance?

This is wishful thinking, the basic human fear of death. "There has to be a reason! This cannot be just it! There has to be something afterwards!" People believe in what they want to believe, unfortunately. Because, in this case, it is comforting. It is comforting to think that our loved ones are not really dead, we are not going to die etc. etc.

I know that I have one shot at a life. I'm so lucky to be the one I am as any other one of the millions of sperms would give birth to a different person. I enjoy life, I have a family, I pass my genes to the next generations and I'm going to die one day. My molecules will go back to this ecosystem and my genes (at least some part) will survive within my descendants. Sorry to break the bad news, we don't have a better reason to be here than the bird on the wire outside.

Life is great as it is! I don't need hope or comfort of an imaginary afterlife to enjoy it.

I know there are other posts that I'd like to respond but I gotta run. I'll post a reply as soon as I can...

[peace_maker]

Of course. My parents had sex and I was born. As all living beings that's why I came to exist.

I asked, "why you are here?" not "how you are here?"
I want to know the purpose of your life.

I've already mentioned that in an earlier post. Attaching reasons to things is a human trait, which is clearly visible in children.

You know a lot about science. Don't you know that CHILDREN ARE IMMATURE? They gain maturity at a certain age.
You wouldn't jump off the cliff if your son insisted on seeing you do the stunt from the movie. So, why hang onto this?

Because our cells decay. The oxygen that gives us life is also burning us slowly.

Is that the best you can come up with? I'm gonna stick to the question, what is the core reason for death?

Now... I have the same problem with this statement from two different angles: religious and ecological.

This world is NOT made for us. It does NOT belong to us more that it belongs to the bird on the tree or the frog in the pond. We are living beings just like any other living being. The fact that we acquired conscienceness through evolution doesn't entitle us to see the resources of this world at our disposition.

Who are dominating the world? Science tells us that humans are the most intelligent species in the world, not the birds who die by accidently hitting on the glass window.

The world is made for all, plants and animals both. But, mostly it's made for us and all the things around us are for our needs.
If this world is equally made for all the living things, then why do you kill and eat them? Chicken? Why can't you just let it enjoy it's life? They have rights on this world too.

And this is so arrogant. Typical human thinking! We think we are the center of the universe and the things around us are created for us and they are ours to use and abuse. That's one of the best signs that religions are human-made creations.

TYPICAL HUMAN THINKING?! Hello? I am a human, how else do ya want me to think? You may be a science geek but, firstly and most importanly, you are a human too, unless you are a computer program. :P

You're asking this question to the wrong person :).

So, you've never prayed? Wierd...

I know many more people who pray for things that they never get. Even when you're religious you can see that most prayers are left unanswered. There has been scientific studies on them (most of them organized by religious organizations). There's no scientific evidence what so ever of their power.

But science knows the effect of placebo. So if one believes s/he's going to get better, there's a higher chance that it happens. Giving patients placebo instead of real medicine is shown to have the same effect. We are conditioning our brain to act on our body.

However, funny enough, in another study, they grouped surgery patients into three groups.
1) People prayed for them and the patients knew about it
2) People prayed for them and the patients didn't know about it
3) Nobody prayed for them

Naturally, group 2 and 3 had similar results: praying or not praying didn't change the success of surgery, recovery etc. The strange thing happened with group 1. They did worse, probably because they knew they were prayed for and they thought they were in trouble. A good example of the power of our brain.

Basically, by praying to a supernatural power, you are asking it to bend the rules of the universe for you, and most of the time, at the expense of another person. Your doctor and test example is very good for that. 500 people go through the test only 50 succeeds. But everyone of them prays. Do you see the absurdity of the situation?

If God fulfils everyone's prayers, then there won't be any ups and downs. Duh, it'd be like heaven. Where do you think the TRIALS fit in?
And God knows what's best for us.

When something good comes out of a situation, you thank God for it. But when something bad happens it's not God's fault.


There's an accident. The survivors' families thank God all day long but the victims' families never curse the God for it. Abrahamic religions has even lost this honesty and become totally hypocritical. At least, in earlier belief systems, such as ancient Greek, people thanked their gods as much as they cursed them. Now, if something good happens, it is thanks to God, if it's something bad, it's either a "natural phenomenon" or it's "man"'s fault.

Allah clearly says in the Holy Quran, everything good to you is from me and everything bad is from Satan.
Truly, Satan pushes us to do wrong, but we must hold ourselves strong.

Without realizing, you're highlighting one of the paradox of modern religions:
- God is all-knowing, all-powerful.
- God sent us here for a test/trial.
- If you combine the first two, you can deduce that God already knows the result of this trial, because he's "all-knowing". In this case, this test is useless because he already know who's good, who's bad, who's going to do what exactly, who's an atheist etc.

Hmm... Good question. I'll put forward an example.
There is a hall, exams are going on. The teacher knows every one of her students clearly. She knows that the first two benchers would ace the paper with A+. And the last ones, expert cheaters. They would pass with average scores by cheating but, she has taught them for two years, she know exactly their tactics. So, failing it is. She knows the center seated ones, average.
She knows exactly about everyone. So, why conduct tests in the first place?
She could've just taken their papers and decided their marks herself, isn't it?
But what would happen if she did that? Won't the students raise questions? They would blame her for judging them herself. They would demand proof.
She would immeditely pull out the records of their previous exams. But they would refuse, they'd say they've really studied well this time.

God could've just jugded us all and send us to either Heaven or Hell. But, we would demand proof, this is the proof, this world. Everything we do here is recorded. Now, can we speak a single word against God with such an evidence?

Am just curious, after your death, how do you want to be burried or whatever?



I'm on the go right now so, I'll get to the other half tomorrow.

[DirtyLeo]

That's not the same thing. Us, the world, the Quran etc. can be taken as evidence of a creator. Whether you accept that evidence is your own choice.

I understand. That is why it is called "faith". It doesn't require the evidence to be "scientific". It is just good enough to have faith that it is.

Nobody is expected to follow blindly. People follow because there is enough proof which makes sense. Acceptance is an individual thing.

Yes and no. Some make educated decisions but most don't. We don't sell alcohol or cigarettes to kids under 18 but we indoctrinate them with religious teachings. We indoctrinate the countless uneducated with religious non-sense (pardon my bluntness but I mean to tell them not to use condoms when they're dying of AIDS, not to teach them contraception because religion forbids it etc.)

And I agree, "acceptance is an individual thing" but most religions forget this and don't agree with that. In how many places in Quran Allah calls to fight the infidels just because they don't accept Islamic teachings? So acceptance may be an individual thing but it certainly doesn't look like a divine thing.

Needless to say, I am all for freedom of speech and belief. People are allowed to believe in what they want, even in a stone, as long as they don't throw it at me, just because I don't share their views.

I believe the OP was trying to say certain things in the Quran can be scientifically proven. Just because everything cannot be proven scientifically does not make it untrue.

Which, I keep saying that I totally agree with. I said it in earlier posts: science hasn't answered all the questions, yet. But if one wants to show Allah as the answer to the unexplained or unanswered without any scientific evidence, Odin or Zeus will have as much to say about it as any god. Because, as far as scientific evidence is concerned, they are on par.

[abjad]

Assalam to all,

There are stories of previous Prophets in Quran. (Musa, Yusuf, Yunus and others )
What's the wisdom and lesson in these stories?
Thanks in advance for the answers!

Surah 21. Al-Anbiyaa

In vv. 48-91, instances have been cited from the important events of the life stories of the Prophets to show that all the Prophets, who were sent by God, were human beings and had all the characteristics of a man except those which were exclusive to Prophethood. They had no share in Godhead and they had to implore Allah to fulfill each and every necessity of theirs.

Along with these two other things have also been mentioned:

1. All the Prophets had to pass through distress and affliction; their opponents did their worst to thwart their mission, but in spite of it they came out successful by the extraordinary succour from Allah.

2. All the Prophets had one and the same "way of life', the same as was being presented by Muhammad (Allah's peace be upon him), and that was the only Right Way of Life and all other ways invented and introduced by mischievous people were utterly wrong.

In vv. 92-106, it has been declared that only those who follow the Right Way, will come out successful in the final judgment of God and those who discard it shall meet with the worst consequences.

In vv. 107-112, the people have been told that it is a great favour of Allah that He has sent His Messenger to inform them beforehand of this Reality and that those, who consider his coming to be an affliction instead of a blessing, are foolish people.

[peace_maker]

This is wishful thinking, the basic human fear of death. "There has to be a reason! This cannot be just it! There has to be something afterwards!"

Of course, this is how one's thoughts must be. Thinking in all directions, finding answers and all.
All this time arguing, I think I've known you quiet well. You don't have confidence on yourself. You only trust science. Even when you feel something's right, you don't believe in yourself, you first check if science has proved it, then it's an OK for you.
You have put an end to your own thoughts and imagination. Look at yourself, science is all you believe. It's as though, science is your faith.

People believe in what they want to believe, unfortunately. Because, in this case, it is comforting. It is comforting to think that our loved ones are not really dead, we are not going to die etc. etc.

It's not like that. People believe in after life because it makes sence. Just because science failed to prove it doesn't mean it's wrong.
Everything has a creator. The airplane was invented/created by the Wright Bros. And obviously almost everything around us is created by humans. (how can you deny that humans are not dominating the earth?)
How is your creator? You mom and dad? You see, they are not labeled as creators of you, they are labeled as your parents.
If you check out the defination of creator in any dictionary, it would read, "one who creates or God."
Everybody knows God exists.

I know that I have one shot at a life. I'm so lucky to be the one I am as any other one of the millions of sperms would give birth to a different person. I enjoy life, I have a family, I pass my genes to the next generations and I'm going to die one day. My molecules will go back to this ecosystem and my genes (at least some part) will survive within my descendants. Sorry to break the bad news, we don't have a better reason to be here than the bird on the wire outside.

Our life is waaaay better than any animal.
The explanation of life you have given suits to life of animals, not us.
They have no purpose of life. We just don't live to pass on our generation, we have a purpose. Unfortunately, you fail to understand it. Think about it, what's the use of keeping the generation going? To keep the world goin on?


Where you an atheist from birth? Bet not.
Is your wife an atheist too? Obviously but just curious, were her parents also atheists?

[Dagless]

Yes and no. Some make educated decisions but most don't. We don't sell alcohol or cigarettes to kids under 18 but we indoctrinate them with religious teachings. We indoctrinate the countless uneducated with religious non-sense (pardon my bluntness but I mean to tell them not to use condoms when they're dying of AIDS, not to teach them contraception because religion forbids it etc.)

Just because it's nonsense to you does not make it nonsense.

And I agree, "acceptance is an individual thing" but most religions forget this and don't agree with that. In how many places in Quran Allah calls to fight the infidels just because they don't accept Islamic teachings? So acceptance may be an individual thing but it certainly doesn't look like a divine thing.

No it doesn't, religion is always a choice in Islam.

Which, I keep saying that I totally agree with. I said it in earlier posts: science hasn't answered all the questions, yet. But if one wants to show Allah as the answer to the unexplained or unanswered without any scientific evidence, Odin or Zeus will have as much to say about it as any god. Because, as far as scientific evidence is concerned, they are on par.

Well actually no. Odin, Zeus etc. have many inconsistencies and things which can be proven without question to be false. The Quran does not.

[DirtyLeo]

Of course, this is how one's thoughts must be. Thinking in all directions, finding answers and all.

LOL! That's the best! "Thinking in all directions, finding answers and all"?!? and after that you still believe blindly in something that shows no scientific evidence at all? Because we cannot comprehend something, doesn't make it God's doing. Humankind has suffered from the same delusion since its dawn. But if everybody were content like you with religious answers to scientific questions, we wouldn't be communicating using computers via Internet using satellite signals etc. True curious minds that are not content with answers like "This is God's doing, don't bother finding out how and why it is like that" brought us where we are. This same thing is true with things like "origin of life" "universe's life cycle". To these questions, religion's answer is "God's doing". But true curious mind is not content with that. It is looking for scientific answers and it is getting them.

All this time arguing, I think I've known you quiet well. You don't have confidence on yourself. You only trust science. Even when you feel something's right, you don't believe in yourself, you first check if science has proved it, then it's an OK for you.

Of course. I'm proud of my rational mind. I'm fed up with dogmatic religious teachings. I do my own thinking, I don't let others do that for me. I have confidence on my mind.

And it is a little bit too much to claim that you know me etc. Let's not get too personal, shall we! Name callings etc are not good for a civilized discussion. We don't have to agree on everything in order to treat each other respectfully. I don't claim to know you, I don't call you "religious bigot" etc. So let's keep it that way please.

It's strange that you are trying to bring the subject to my person, where we are not discussion that. We are discussion the subject "everything in Quran can be proven scientifically", to which I said "of course not!". This is what we are discussing.

You have put an end to your own thoughts and imagination.

That is correct! Of course I don't live my life according to some imagined beings and their teachings. Imagination is great. I love fantasy and science-fiction books, for example. But I leave fantasy at that, I don't take it to the real life to tell me how to live my life and how the universe came to be.

Look at yourself, science is all you believe. It's as though, science is your faith.

Science is not a religion or not a faith. Science doesn't care about these things. It works with claims, evidences and proofs. Faith on the other hand, doesn't need any rational justification. It is realized just by believing in something without needing scientific evidence. "Because it feels right" or "because it makes sense" is your evidence but some of us are not content with that because this is no way to progress things rationally.

It's not like that. People believe in after life because it makes sence.

It makes sense to religious people, maybe, for they are the ones who don't need scientific evidence to believe in things.

Just because science failed to prove it doesn't mean it's wrong.

I've said that many times before. You are right there! Probably the only scientifically correct statement in your post. That opens the door to a philosophical discussions. But this logic has no end because we can imagine billions of things that science hasn't proven: pegasus, hydra, elves, trolls, Minotaur, Anubis, Zeus, Ra, Odin, Thor, Holy Ghost (Christian), leprechauns, etc. Do you see how far this logic can go?

Furthermore, as it is said on this thread before, burden of proof falls on the claimant. Science doesn't have to prove any god's existence. It is up to the claimant to prove that Allah or Yahwe or Zeus exists.

Everything has a creator.

The "creator" argument shots itself on the foot with that. Because I can always push this question to: "Who created God? Who's God creator?". Religious people would say, "God is not created. God has always been". How convenient!!! A free "get out of the jail card" for God. He doesn't have to answer the very question that you are asking. Another one of your "evidence" based logic.

Everybody knows God exists.

Where do you get this fact from?

Think about it, what's the use of keeping the generation going? To keep the world goin on?

Our genes have to survive. This is the ultimate reason of being and staying alive. Even though we aren't doing it purposefully, it is the same for all living beings.

We don't keep the world going. Humankind is very young compared to the world. It is just enough to compare how long we have been around and how long dinosaurs roamed Earth. We are just a drop of water in the ocean. But our ego and arrogance have no end. We imagine gods and claim that they created this world for us even though we've been around for a fraction of a second.

Where you an atheist from birth? Bet not.
Is your wife an atheist too? Obviously but just curious, were her parents also atheists?

We eventually grow out of Santa Claus and some of us can even grow out of God, it seems.

Unfortunately not a lot of us are born into families who don't agree with religious dogma. Children should be given the option to choose. Maybe they'll become Buddhists or Christians or Atheists or Deists but most of us force our religious beliefs on our children. If you are born in a muslim family you become muslim and believe that Islam is the last religion, and if you are born into a Mormon family the your beliefs are totally different. There are so many religions, so many gods around, it would be a tough choice for an individual to study them all and pick the one that "makes sense".


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I'll eventually get to answer the other posters too but it takes time to write these long posts :). In the meantime, have a nice day all.