Isa: "Great Commandments" as Essential to True Muslim Faith

[YieldedOne]

Hey, brothers and sisters of humanity. YieldedOne here. Hope y'all have fun with this!

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Major Point:
Qur'anically speaking, a person cannot be a true, faithful Muslim without obeying Jesus/Isa's Torah-Injeel teaching about "loving the neighbor as oneself".


Discussion of Major Point:
According to Hammudat Abd Al-Ati's summary of the fundamental articles of Islamic faith--found in his work "Islam in Focus"---true, faithful Muslims are obligated by their faith to believe what can be reasonably discerned as authentic, uncorrupted Torah (Torat) and Gospel (Injeel) teaching from the Holy Books of the "people of the Book", namely Jews and Christians. This is explicitly affirmed within the Qur'an. (Surahs 2:136, with cross referencing of 3:1-4; 3:84; 4:163-165; 6:84-87.) Moreover, true Muslims are to fully obey the divinely revealed teaching of God's Messenger and Prophet, Isa/Jesus (Surah 43:63-64), as Jesus' teaching was "confirming the Torah" which antedated him. (Surah 61:6-7)


Given all this, if it is true that Deuteronomy 6:4-6 and Leviticus 19:9-18 (The Great Commandments of Jesus ala Matthew 22:34-40) are good candididates for authentic Torat and Injeel material--per meeting the specifications of accepted Islamic commentaries, such as those produced by Maulana Maududi--then, from Abd Al-Ati's perspective and others like Sohaib N. Sultan* --, the "true Muslim" absolutely must believe in those passages as genuine revelation from Allah and live them out faithfully. To do otherwise is to implicitly break faith with Allah and rebel against Allah's truth as revealed by a divinely-sent Messenger, Prophet, and Messiah, Isa/Jesus.


Implications of Major Point and Discussion:
Muslims and Christians are bound by mutually-held belief in Jesus/Isa as Allah's Mesenger and Prophet and his teaching of the "Great Commandments" such that both groups are committed by their own holy books to obey Jesus/Isa's commands to "love your neighbor as yourself."

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Sohib N. Sultan's The Qur'an and Sayings of Prophet Muhammad: Selections Annotated & Explained on page 24, where there was comment on Surah 3:3-4...

The Torah of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus are mentioned here as scriptures that were sent by God for the purpose of guidance. As such, Muslims are required, by faith, to believe in the unaltered, original Torah and Gospel as books of revelation. However, emphasis must be placed on the word "original" because Muslims believe that the Torah and Gospel were altered by the hands of men in later generations.

[YieldedOne]

The following is From Hammudat Abd Al-Ati's "Islam in Focus". Among all the fundamentals, the first 3 are what I thought very important to this discussion...

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The true, faithful Muslim believes in the following principal articles of faith:

1. He believes in One God, Supreme and Eternal, Infinite and Mighty, Merciful and Compassionate, Creator and Provider. This belief, in order to be effective, requires complete trust and hope in God, submission to His Will and reliance on His aid. It secures man's dignity and saves him from fear and despair, from guilt and confusion. The reader is invited to see the meaning of Islam as explained above.

2. He believes in all the messengers of God without any discrimination among them. Every known nation had a warner or messenger from God. These messengers were great teachers of the good and true champions of the right. They were chosen by God to teach mankind and deliver His Divine message. They were sent at different times of history and every known nation had one messenger or more. During certain periods two or more messengers were sent by God at the same time to the same nation. The Holy Qur'an mentions the names of twenty-five of them, and the Muslim believes in them all and accepts them as authorized messengers of God. They were, with the exception of Muhammad, known as "national" or local messengers. But their message, their religion, was basically the same and was called ISLAM, because it came from One and the Same Source, namely, God, to serve one and the same purpose, and that is to guide humanity to the Straight Path of God. All the messengers with no exception whatsoever were mortals, human beings, endowed with Divine revelation, and appointed by God to perform certain tasks. Among them Muhammad stands as the Last Messenger and the crowning glory of the foundation of prophethood. This is not an arbitrary attitude, nor is it just a convenient belief. Like all the other Islamic beliefs, it is an authentic and logical truth. Also, it may be useful to mention here the names of some of the great messengers like Noah and Abraham, Ishmael and Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of God be upon them all. The Qur’an commands the Muslims thus:


We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes; and that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and that which was given to all prophets from their Lord. We make no discrimination between one and another of them, and we bow to God (2:136, cf. 3:84; 4:163-165; 6:84-87).

3. The true Muslim believes, as a result of article two, in all the scriptures and revelations of God. They were the guiding light which the messengers received to show their respective peoples the Right Path of God. In the Qur’an a special reference is made to the books of Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus. But long before the revelation of the Qur’an to Muhammad some of those books and revelations had been lost or corrupted, others forgotten, neglected, or concealed. The only authentic and complete book of God in existence today is the Qur’an. In principle, the Muslim believes in the previous books and revelations. (YO's Note: The Torat and the Injeel) But where are their complete and original versions? They could be still at the bottom of the Dead Sea, and there may be more Scrolls to be discovered. Or perhaps more information about them will become available when the Christian and Jewish archaeologists reveal to the public the complete original findings of their continued excavations in the Holy Land. For the Muslim, there is no problem of that kind. The Qur’an is in his hand complete and authentic. Nothing of it is missing and no more of it is expected. Its authenticity is beyond doubt, and no serious scholar or thinker has ventured to question its genuineness. The Qur’an was made so by God Who revealed it and made it incumbent upon Himself to protect it against interpolation and corruption of all kinds. Thus it is given to the Muslims as the standard or criterion by which all the other books are judged. So whatever agrees with the Qur’an is accepted as Divine truth, and whatever differs from the Qur’an is either rejected or suspended. God says: 'Verily We have, without doubt, sent down the Qur’an, and We will assuredly guard it’ (15: 9; cf. 2:75- 79; 5: 1 3-14, 41, 45, 47; 6:91 ; 41:43).


*********************************************

[YieldedOne]

Now...

Here is the Maulana Maududi commentary being referenced...a commentary on Surah 3:1-4

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(3:1) Alif, Lam, Mim.

(3:2) Allah, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsisting, Who sustains the entire order of the universe - there is no God but He.

(3:3) He has revealed this Book to you, setting forth the truth and confirming the earlier Books, and earlier He revealed the Torah and Gospel

(3:4) for the guidance of mankind;1 and He has also revealed the Criterion (to distinguish truth from falsehood). A severe chastisement lies in store for those who deny the signs of Allah. Allah is All-Mighty; He is the Lord of Retribution.


1. The Torah is generally taken to signify the first five books of the Old Testament, and the Injil (Gospel), to mean the four Gospels of the New Testament, even though those books form a part of it. This has sometimes caused people to wonder if these books were indeed revealed by God. If they are accepted as revealed, one may wonder if the Qur'an really verifies their contents as this verse says. The fact is, however, that the Torah is not identical with the first five books of the Old Testament even though those books form a part of the Torah. Likewise, the Injil is not identical with the four Gospels of the New Testament.

The fact is that the Torah, in the Qur'anic usage, signifies the revelations made to Moses (peace be on him), in about forty years, from the time he was appointed a Prophet until his death. These include the Ten Commandments', which were handed over to him inscribed on stone tablets. Moses took down the rest of the revealed injunctions and handed over one copy to each of the twelve tribes of Israel, and one copy to the Levites for safe keeping. It is this book which was known as the Torah and it existed until the first destruction of Jerusalem. The copy entrusted to the Levites was put beside the Ark of the Covenant along with the Commandment tablets, and the Israelites knew it as the Torah. The Jews, however, neglected the Book: during the reign of Josiah the King of Judah the Temple of Solomon was under repair and the high priest, Hilkiah, chanced to find the Book lying in the construction area. He gave it to the King's secretary, Shaphan, who in turn took it to the King as if it were a strange find (see 2 Kings 22: 8-13).

Hence, when the Babylonian King, Nebuchadnezzar, conquered Jerusalem and razed it and the Temple of Solomon to the ground, the Israelites lost for ever the few original copies of the Torah which they possessed, and which they had consigned to obscurity. At the time of Ezra the priest, some Israelites returned from captivity in Babylon, and when Jerusalem was rebuilt the entire history of Israel, which now comprises the first seventeen books of the Old Testament, was recorded by Ezra with the assistance of some other elders of the community. Four of these books, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, consist of a biographical narrative of Moses. In this biography those verses of the Torah available to Ezra and the other elders are also recorded and in the contexts in which they were revealed. The present Torah, therefore, comprises those fragments of the original book which are interspersed throughout the biography of Moses (composed in the manner described above).

In locating these fragments of the original Torah there are certain expressions which help us. These are interspersed between the different pieces of biographical narration and usually open with words such as: 'Then the Lord said to Moses', and 'Moses said, the Lord your God commands you.' These expressions, then, are fragments of the original Torah. When the biographical narration re-commences, however, we can be sure that the fragment of the true Torah has concluded. Wherever authors and editors of the Bible have added anything of their own accord, by way of either elaboration or elucidation, it has become very difficult for an ordinary reader to distinguish the original from the explanatory additions. Those with insight into Divine Scripture, however, do have the capacity to distinguish between the original revealed fragments and the later, human interpolations.

It is these scattered fragments of the original revealed Book which the Qur'an terms as the Torah, and it is these which it confirms. When these fragments are compared with the Qur'an, there is no difference between the two as regards the fundamental teachings. Whatever differences exist relate to legal matters and are of secondary importance. Even today a careful reader can appreciate that the Torah and the Qur'an have sprung from one and the same Divine source.

Likewise, Injil signifies the inspired orations and utterances of Jesus (peace be on him), which he delivered during the last two or three years of his life in his capacity as a Prophet. There are no certain means by which we can definitively establish whether or not his statements were recorded during his lifetime. It is possible that some people took notes of them and that some followers committed them to memory. After a period of time, however, several treatises on the life of Jesus were written. The authors of these treatises recorded, in connection with the biographical account, those sayings of his which they had received from the previous generation of co-religionists, in the form of either oral traditions or written notes about events in his life. As a result the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are not identical with the Injil. Rather, the Injil consists of those statements by Jesus which form part of these Gospels. Unfortunately we have no means of distinguishing the fragments of the original Injil from the pieces written by the authors themselves. All we can say is that only those sections explicitly attributed to Jesus, for example in statements such as: 'And Jesus said' and 'And Jesus taught', constitute the true Injil. It is the totality of such fragments which is designated as the Injil by the Qur'an, and it is the teachings contained in these fragments that the Qur'an confirms. If these fragments are put together and compared with the teachings of the Qur'an one notices very few discrepancies between the two, and any discrepancies that are found can be resolved easily by unbiased reflection.

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In terms of this particular commentary by Mr. Maududi, I would submit that Deuteronomy 6:4-8 and Leviticus 19:9-18 are good candididates for authentic Torat and Injeel material, given this description. They seem to fulfill all the criteria. Take a look...


"And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying...": Leviticus 19:1

“Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the rules that the Lord your God commanded me to teach you, that you may do them in the land to which you are going over, to possess it: Deuteronomy 6:1

But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he (Jesus) said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”: Matthew 22:34-40


So...

If it is indeed true that the aforemention texts are good candididates for authentic Torat and Injeel material (according to the specifications of the Maulana Maududi commentary mentioned earlier in this thread), then the "true Muslim" (from Abd Al-Ati's perspective) MUST believe in those passages as genuine revelation from Allah and live them out faithfully.


Any and all response is gracious welcome, brothers and sisters.

[YieldedOne]

So, here's my perspective on what Isa was teaching...

Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Commandments from God
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”


Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Criteria for "Loving Your Neighbor As Yourself"(Leviticus 19:9-18)
1) When you gain from your work, don't just think about yourself. Think of the poor and the wayfarer.
2) Don't steal.
3) Don't operate by false pretenses or motives.
4) Don't lie to each other.
5) Don't oppress or rob your neighbor.
6) Don't mistreat the physically (or mentally) challenged.
7) Don't promote injustice or partiality. Judge righteously.
8) Don't slander others.
9) Don’t threaten the life of your neighbors.
10) Don't hate your brother (or sister) "in your heart."
11) Don't take vengeance for yourself.
12) Don't hold a grudge against your neighbor.

The "New" Commandment from Jesus
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another."

"This is my command: Love each other."

Verification of Jesus' teachings by His disciples and followers
"For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another." --1 John 3:11

For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” --Galatians 5:13-14, Paul

The Core Message of Jesus as God's Prophet and Messenger:
Human beings are to express singular worship of and submission to the One Uncreated Creator by a) thanksgiving, adoration and glorification to the Creator and b) works of loving-kindness and compassion to others and ourselves. In this, we are also to consecrate ourselves and be holy, compassionate, merciful, and loving because our Creator is holy, compassionate, merciful and loving.

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[YieldedOne]

I really don't see to many followers of Islam fundamentally disagreeing with any of this stuff..but I'm a Christian, so I don't know.

Which is part of why I'm having this discussion here. Does this line of thinking work, regarding Isa as Prophet and Messenger of Allah, the Quran's veneration of the Torat and Injeel, etc.? Is there any faith-based reason why a Muslim would say that the commandment from Isa (via Moses) to "love your neighbor as yourself" wouldn't be an acceptable tenet of faith as a Muslim?

I'm asking these questions very honestly, siblings. Just straight askin'.

All the response I can get...I will be eternally greatful for.

For the glory, honor, and love of Allah the Loving and Exceedingly Compassionate!

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you YieldedOne, welcome to the forum;

Interesting questions

In the spirit of praying to One God

Eric

[YieldedOne]

Thanks for the welcome, Eric. Peace and blessings, bro. ;o)

And I love your signature thought. Yeah!

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

[Ramadhan]

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

I agree.

Hence, you shall never partner anything to Him. Not even a human being prophet who was given miracles.

[YieldedOne]

Welcome to the discussion, naidamar! It's nice to know that we both agree with the belief of One God aka Deut. 6:4. What do you think about those questions I asked? I'd love to get your impressions. :)

[YieldedOne]

All my Muslim brothers and sisters out there. Your feedback would be ever so helpful with this thought project, critical or otherwise.

Any and all feedback will be greatly appreciated! :)

Definitely waitin' on your response, naidamar...hehe...

[YieldedOne]

Brothers? Sisters?

:D

[YieldedOne]

Aw, come on now. Nobody? ^o)

[YieldedOne]

I guess patience is a virtue. Seriously though, peeps. I really do wanna see if this line of argument is good or not. If it doesn't work, I sure wanna know about it. Hit me with your best shot.

If anything, do it just for the heck of it! :D

[YieldedOne]

Reading material while I'm waiting:

"A Common Word Between Us and You"


(Google "A Common Word" and it will come right up!)

Composed by 138 Islamic authorities and scholars from around the world...

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

i'm assuming this post is referring to:

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.”

32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and the

w/o referring to all of the OP's sidebars, my opinion on this is:

those 2 commands sum up the "Decalogue," and as such, the "Decalogue" is the core of Judaism, SHOULD be the core/foundation of Christianity and IS the core/foundation of Islam

that's in the fewest words possible.

[YieldedOne]

First of all, Yusuf...

:rock:


Thanks for the interaction!

Next...you said...

those 2 commands sum up the "Decalogue," and as such, the "Decalogue" is the core of Judaism, SHOULD be the core/foundation of Christianity and IS the core/foundation of Islam. that's in the fewest words possible.

You are exactly right, bro. Deuteronomy 6:4-6 and Leviticus 19:9-18 is a restatement of the Decalogue, which is core to all 3 Abrahamic faiths. Which is why it absolutely makes SENSE for both Old Testatment passages to be candidates for AUTHENTIC Torat of Moses and the Matthew 22:34-40 New Testament passage to be seen as authentic Injeel of Jesus. Especially along with all of the information given earlier.

What all this means is that, as you have said, the "Great Commandments" of Jesus is part of the "core/foundation of Islam"...SAME AS Christianity (at least in principle). And THAT means that we have common criteria by which to hold each other and ourselves accountable when it comes to how Muslims and Christians relate to themselves and others.

Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Criteria for "Loving Your Neighbor As Yourself"(Leviticus 19:9-18)
1) When you gain from your work, don't just think about yourself. Think of the poor and the wayfarer.
2) Don't steal.
3) Don't operate by false pretenses or motives.
4) Don't lie to each other.
5) Don't oppress or rob your neighbor.
6) Don't mistreat the physically (or mentally) challenged.
7) Don't promote injustice or partiality. Judge righteously.
8) Don't slander others.
9) Don’t threaten the life of your neighbors.
10) Don't hate your brother (or sister) "in your heart."
11) Don't take vengeance for yourself.
12) Don't hold a grudge against your neighbor.

To the extent a Muslim ISN'T doing this, they are denying their faith. To the extent a Christian ISN'T doing this, they are denying their faith.

That thought alone should give us ALL pause...

[YieldedOne]

So, if I hear YusufMoor right, the "Great Commandments" of Isa ARE essential to the "true" Muslim faith.

Let's just pick THREE of these...

--Don't hold a grudge against you neighbor.

--Don't slander others.

--Don't operate by false pretenses or motives.

Can you imagine how much Muslim/Christian dialogue would be transformed if we JUST did these things? If we could UN-GRUDGE all of the vitriol about the Christian Crusades and the Islamic "Ghazawats"?

What if BOTH SIDES really believed that to hold grudges against their neighbor was to BREAK FAITH with Allah and his servant Jesus/Isa...such that they didn't do it anymore?

It's almost too good to be true. :omg:

[MartyrX]

As the Imam said at Jumma, we all need to practice forgiveness. Each and everyone of us of all faiths.

[YieldedOne]

So...

Whenever I look in the New Testament and I see Jesus saying:

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another."

I'm inclined to believe that he probably really, historically TAUGHT that as God's authorized Messenger and Prophet. Why? Because it's so SIMILIAR to what's already been taught and re-taught, it just makes sense!

And this "Love one another" teaching is binding on any who believe in Jesus as God's authorized Messenger and Prophet.

Yeah.

[YieldedOne]

Ok. I'm putting this over here...because I think it applies much more here. (Plus I think I've caused enough issues over there! :embarrass)

MustafaMc:
Other Muslims correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the Quran is a subset of the all inclusive "Mother of the Book" in the sense that the Taurat and the Injeel were subsets of it.

Questions:
1) Is what MustafaMc saying correct? About the Torat and the Injeel being subsets within the "Mother of the Book"
2) If so, is it safe to say that Jesus/Isa's Torat-Injeel "Great Commandments" are included in those subsets?

Insanely curious. Or just insane. Ha! ;D

[Ramadhan]

Or just insane. Ha!

I choose this one.

Your title of this thread alone shows at least dishonesty on your part.
You deceitfully try to make it as if God's commandments are actually originated from Isa (as). Even you wrote: "Isa commandments by way of Musa".
ugh. Isa (as) had not yet existed during Musa (as), so why did you call it "Isa commandments by way of Musa".

Your deceit is quite transparent, that's why no one has even bothered to respond to your verbal acrobatic in this thread.
Just not worth the effort.
Unless you are honest in your engagement, do not expect anyone to treat you seriously.

[YieldedOne]

Naidamar:
Your title of this thread alone shows at least dishonesty on your part.
You deceitfully try to make it as if God's commandments are actually originated from Isa (as). Even you wrote: "Isa commandments by way of Musa".
ugh. Isa (as) had not yet existed during Musa (as), so why did you call it "Isa commandments by way of Musa".

Your deceit is quite transparent, that's why no one has even bothered to respond to your verbal acrobatic in this thread. Just not worth the effort.
Unless you are honest in your engagement, do not expect anyone to treat you seriously.

Oboy.
Thanks for the response, naidar. I have to say: I'm really not trying to be deceitful. Really. What will represent more "honest engagement"? I'll phrase things that way. Seriously. I like to have fun, but I'd like to be taken seriously. Yep.

I apologize that my title wasn't clear enough. It was being provocative I suppose, but not dishonest. For real. The only thing I was doing was focusing on the Jesus/Isa and his "Great Commandments" teaching, specifically as it was potentially relevant to Muslim faith. They talked about this clearly in "A Common Word Between Us and You" . And when I talked about "Isa's commandments by way of Musa", that was an obviously imprecise (bad) way of attempting to saying that Jesus was reifying truth that had already been talked about in the Torat of Moses. That's all. I apologize for my imprecise and provocativity. (Is that a word?)

However it's more helpful for me to engage, I'll do that. Forgive my trespasses, peeps. I'd like to keep the convo going...

[Aprender]

Hmm. I suppose I'm not sure where you're getting at here YieldedOne.

If it's that there are commonalities of our faiths and that we should be more loving and uphold the teachings of our faiths then that's not something really up for discussion since it's quite obvious that we should indeed do those things.

I didn't think your post was insincere, I guess, I need more clarification on what you're trying to discuss?

[siam]

Judaism has 613 commandments(mitzvot).......
of which, the following speak of...
Love and Brotherhood

1. To love all human beings who are of the covenant (Lev. 19:18) (CCA60). See Love and Brotherhood.
2. Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16) (CCN82). See Love and Brotherhood.
3. Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17) (CCN48). See Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra.
4. Not to carry tales (Lev. 19:16) (CCN77). See Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra.
5. Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17) (CCN78). See Love and Brotherhood.
6. Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN80).
7. Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN81).
8. Not to put any Jew to shame (Lev. 19:17) (CCN79).
9. Not to curse any other Israelite (Lev. 19:14) (by implication: if you may not curse those who cannot hear, you certainly may not curse those who can) (CCN45).
10. Not to give occasion to the simple-minded to stumble on the road (Lev. 19:14) (this includes doing anything that will cause another to sin) (CCN76).
11. To rebuke the sinner (Lev. 19:17) (CCA72).
12. To relieve a neighbor of his burden and help to unload his beast (Ex. 23:5) (CCA70). See Love and Brotherhood.
13. To assist in replacing the load upon a neighbor's beast (Deut. 22:4) (CCA71). See Love and Brotherhood.
14. Not to leave a beast, that has fallen down beneath its burden, unaided (Deut. 22:4) (CCN183). See Love and Brotherhood.

[siam]

"Old Testatment passages to be candidates for AUTHENTIC Torat of Moses and the Matthew 22:34-40 New Testament passage to be seen as authentic Injeel of Jesus."

----I don't think we Muslims spend our time worrying about what is or is not authentic in the Torah and NT-----far as we are concerned, the Quran is authentic and it repeats the "essential" Guidance given from the time of prophet Adam(pbuh). ---and this "essential" or core message is Tawheed.

----not to mention, we (Muslims) are more interested in our 5 pillars.......than the 613 mitzvot.......

[YieldedOne]

Aprender:
Hmm. I suppose I'm not sure where you're getting at here YieldedOne. If it's that there are commonalities of our faiths and that we should be more loving and uphold the teachings of our faiths then that's not something really up for discussion since it's quite obvious that we should indeed do those things.

I didn't think your post was insincere, I guess, I need more clarification on what you're trying to discuss?

Thanks, Aprender.

I've said before that I was really inspired by the "A Common Word Between Us and You" document, and all the stuff dealing with that. Even though it was great...I noticed something. The basic ground of the document was as follows: Muslims have a Prophet they follow that talks about the Love of God and Neighbor (Muhammad) and Christians have a Prophet they follow that talks about the Love of God and Neighbor (Jesus); therefore, Christians and Muslims can get together based upon the PRINCIPLES of Love of God and Neighbor. Now, speaking from an interfaith dialogue perspective, it went a long way for Muslim/Christian relations since it was written...but there was also problems from both sides. Long story short, It was stated that, from there perspective, there was no REAL commonality because (in their perspective) a Muslim's view of the love of God and neighbor (ala Muhammad) was incompatibly different than the Christian's view of the "love of God and neighbor" (ala Jesus). Just because two people talks using the same terms doesn't mean that they MEAN the same thing by those words. For this reason, some Christians and Muslims were saying that this was a slightly disingenuous means for interfaith dialogue, in effect using words with diluted meaning. Plus, there was so much focus on whether or not Jesus was the Son of God, that it seemed to just break things down for some. "They're committing shirk!" "They don't believe in God's Son!" All that stuff...and on it goes.

As I thought about it, I asked myself "Where IS the common ground here?" Surely the Great Commandments of Love were key (hence the whole document), but was there something else? That's when I tried to think in terms of authentic common ground that would be virtually UNDENIABLE by both Muslims and Christians. And then it came to me: Jesus/Isa as God-authorized Messenger, Servant, and Prophet of God who sinlessly lived and taught the "Great Commandments" (a restatement of the Decalogue) in the Torat of Moses. As I saw it, neither Muslims nor Christians could deny the authority of Jesus/Isa's teachings insofar as they were so rooted in the Torah, a holy book that BOTH GROUPS esteem as authoritative (at least in principle). Then when I looked at commentaries like that of Mr. Maududi, then I saw how really solid this was: According to Mr. Maududi's thoughts on what comprises authentic Torat and Injeel, the "Great Commandments" of Isa (Deut 6:4-8, Leviticus 19:9-18) fit the bit almost perfectly. If a Muslim considered Maududi's perspective to be valid...and were actually interested in discerning authentic Torat and Injeel from the inauthentic--they could see these things to be true. What this mean was that both Christians and Muslims had AUTHENTIC "common ground" insofar as the teachings of Jesus/Isa were, by faith, binding on both. Neither Muslims nor Christians would deny that the teaching of Jesus was completely faithful to and representative of God's will as Prophet and Messenger. Nor could either said say, by faith, that Jesus/Isa's teachings could be ignored.

So, as I saw it, it placed the same idea (Love of God and neighbor as common ground) in a different context. It wasn't just about the PRINCIPLE of loving God and neighbor per se like in "A Common Word"...but it was much more about focusing on the same teaching from the same holy books reified by the same authoritative Prophet and Messenger venerated by both Christians and Muslims. In turn, this would mean that Jesus/Isa's "Great Commandments" teaching was essential to both fully lived Christian faith and fully lived Muslim faith. It seemed like a pretty tight line of thought. And the thing I felt was the best about it was that, functionally speaking, it would be IRRELEVANT whether or not a person believed the Jesus was the Son of God or not. Jesus' teaching as Prophet and Messenger would be what's most important. And that would mitigate a WHOLE bunch of problems I'd been seeing in Muslim/Christian dialogues.

That's part of why I came here. To see if the thoughts had real merit. I mean, it makes sense to me...but if it didn't make sense to Muslims, then what would be the point, right? :statisfie

I believe that Muslims and Christians can AT LEAST agree on what Jesus/Isa most likely historically taught...and gather around that lovingly and peaceful in faithful acknowledgement of his Allah-sanctioned teaching.

So here I am...and that's why I've been so about this. I'm terribly excited about the prospect of more common ground between Islam and Christianity! Hope this helps understanding what I'm trying to do and where my thinking is.:shade:

[YieldedOne]

Siam:
I don't think we Muslims spend our time worrying about what is or is not authentic in the Torah and NT-----far as we are concerned, the Quran is authentic and it repeats the "essential" Guidance given from the time of prophet Adam(pbuh). ---and this "essential" or core message is Tawheed. ----not to mention, we (Muslims) are more interested in our 5 pillars.......than the 613 mitzvot.......

Thanks, siam. Good list too! Lots of those you mentioned were in the Leviticus 9-18 passage involved in my stuff. Nice.

From what I seem to be getting, I'm seeing that a significant amount of Muslims seem to only value the Torat and Injeel in principle rather than in practice for just the reason you say. And that's cool, as far as it goes. What I'm saying is this, though: to the degree that a Muslims WOULD be interested in that stuff, it's interesting to see how consistent the teaching is from Torat to Injeel. As you well note, the "love and brotherhood" aspects of the Old Testament had been there and were just restated and reified by Jesus as Prophet and Messenger of God.

Interestingly enough, siam, Jesus basically says that "all the Law and Prophets" (that would include all 613 mitavot) are encapsulated in the TWO commandments he mentioned. Call it wonderful simplification if you will.

And if Muslims and Christians BOTH venerate Jesus as Prophet and Messenger from God (which they do), then it would make sense if they 1) understand what he historically taught and 2) heeded it.

From my perspective, this is REAL "common ground" between the two faiths.

-------------------------------

Implications of Major Point and Discussion:
Muslims and Christians are bound by mutually-held belief in Jesus/Isa as Allah's Mesenger and Prophet and his teaching of the "Great Commandments" such that both groups are committed by their own holy books to be faithful to Jesus/Isa's commands to "love your neighbor as yourself."

[YieldedOne]

It's funny. I've been accused by Christians AND Muslims of trying to "gloss over" the differences of the two religions by this focus on the Great Commandments as taught by Jesus. I don't see how that can be the case though. It is crystal clear to me that true Muslims will never be trinitarians (Jesus is NOT the Son of God) and true Christians will never NOT be trinitaritarian (Jesus IS the Son of God). No amount of discussion will ever change that, I don't think. So there could never be some kind of one-world-religion "gloss over" in that respect. Islam and Christians, though both Abrahamic religions, are absolutely, immutably distinct from one another. And I think that should be said upfront. No "Christianizing" Islam or "Islamizing" Christianity possible. All I'm saying is that, even within those inevitable differences, there is a core that allows for effective common ground for both that doesn't compromise the faith of EITHER GROUP.

And to me, that's awesome!

************************************************** **

And I really have gotten interesting in the whole "Mother of the Book" idea since MustafaMc mentioned it. As I've been reading, it seems to be what's called the "archetypal source" of Allah's revelations (Quran, Torat, Injeel)...but I wanted to make sure.

It's started me thinking about Jesus' relationship to the Mother of the Book, from the Islamic standpoint. This is what I came up with:

Jesus/Isa was a sinless human being created directly by Allah's "word" to Mary who perfectly embodied the "Great Commandments" (restatement of the Decalogue) as a "living example" of the reality within the "Mother of the Book", the "archetypal source" of Allah's revelations to humans (ie Quran, Torat, Injeel) that is in the Presence of Allah.

In other words, the life of the created and fully human Jesus of Nazareth is a complete expression of the Divine Will within the "Mother of the Book."
With this idea, I'm not even talking about Jesus/Isa being any uncreated "word" or anything like that. Just saying that, as sinless, Jesus never failed to live by the Great Commandments he taught...and in so doing, he re-presented God's Will on earth.


Thanks for keepin' the party going, peoples! :D

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you YieldedOne;

I believe that Muslims and Christians can AT LEAST agree on what Jesus/Isa most likely historically taught...

Not only did Jesus teach the greatest cvommandments, he lived them, just some thoughts to ponder on this statement........

Could the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the Father.

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

In the spirit of searching for a greater interfaith understanding

Eric

[YieldedOne]

FYI.
I've already tried this out with Christians. There was this one Baptist preacher in particular who told me that he couldn't see any real similarity between Islam and Christianity because they denied Jesus being God's Son. He was hardcore on it. He wasn't anti-Muslim. He just believed there was NO common ground at all for discussion. I talked to him for a while about this idea here.

After our discussion, he admitted that he didn't know how much Muslims venerated and honored Jesus as Messenger and Prophet and that he couldn't knock the logic, if it was all true. He said he had a lot to think about.

I was like "Heck, yeah!" :shade:

[YieldedOne]

Eric:
Not only did Jesus teach the greatest cvommandments, he lived them, just some thoughts to ponder on this statement........ Could the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the Father. Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength. Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

Sup, man. I hear what you're saying...and that question can be asked. For the sake of not putting to many obstacles/defenses up, however, I would just stick to the fully human Jesus completely "embodying" and expressing God's Will through his singular love for God and his self-giving love for all others in that singular love for God.
I'm thinking that's safer. Maybe I'm just a bit gunshy now. Heh...:nervous:

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you YieldedOne;

For the sake of not putting to many obstacles/defenses up, however, I would just stick to the fully human Jesus completely "embodying" and expressing God's Will through his singular love for God and his self-giving love for all others in that singular love for God.

Agreed, and what you say does sound like Jesus living by the greatest commandments..

Every blessing

Eric

[YieldedOne]

Blessings to you as well, Eric.

In light of all the discussion above, I love the summary of "A Common Word". It's terribly inspiring to me personally...

A Common Word between Us and You
(Summary and Abridgement)

Muslims and Christians together make up well over half of the world’s population. Without peace and justice between these two religious communities, there can be no meaningful peace in the world. The future of the world depends on peace between Muslims and Christians.

The basis for this peace and understanding already exists. It is part of the very foundational principles of both faiths: love of the One God, and love of the neighbour. These principles are found over and over again in the sacred texts of Islam and Christianity. The Unity of God, the necessity of love for Him, and the necessity of love of the neighbour is thus the common ground between Islam and Christianity. The following are only a few examples:

Of God’s Unity, God says in the Holy Qur’an: Say: He is God, the One! / God, the Self-Sufficient Besought of all! (Al-Ikhlas, 112:1-2). Of the necessity of love for God, God says in the Holy Qur’an: So invoke the Name of thy Lord and devote thyself to Him with a complete devotion (Al-Muzzammil, 73:8). Of the necessity of love for the neighbour, the Prophet Muhammad r said: “None of you has faith until you love for your neighbour what you love for yourself.”

In the New Testament, Jesus Christ u said: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. / And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. / And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:29-31)

In the Holy Qur’an, God Most High enjoins Muslims to issue the following call to Christians (and Jews—the People of the Scripture):
Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to a common word between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). (Aal ‘Imran 3:64)

The words: we shall ascribe no partner unto Him relate to the Unity of God, and the words: worship none but God, relate to being totally devoted to God. Hence they all relate to the First and Greatest Commandment. According to one of the oldest and most authoritative commentaries on the Holy Qur’an the words: that none of us shall take others for lords beside God, mean ‘that none of us should obey the other in disobedience to what God has commanded’. This relates to the Second Commandment because justice and freedom of religion are a crucial part of love of the neighbour.

Thus in obedience to the Holy Qur’an, we as Muslims invite Christians to come together with us on the basis of what is common to us, which is also what is most essential to our faith and practice: the Two Commandments of love.

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful,
And may peace and blessings be upon the Prophet Muhammad

[YieldedOne]

How about this:

Imagine all adherents of the 3 Abrahamic faiths that exist in the world faithfully following the "Two Commandments of Love".

That would pretty much be world peace, functionally speaking...wouldn't it?

:sunny:

[siam]

'And if Muslims and Christians BOTH venerate Jesus as Prophet and Messenger from God (which they do), then it would make sense if they 1) understand what he historically taught and 2) heeded it."
----That was sort of my point---as far as Muslims are concerned, what Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) taught IS in the Quran.----therefore, we Muslims DO follow the message of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and all the other Prophets before him, when we follow the Guidance of the Quran. We strive to live all of his message. Christians on the other hand, seem more concerned with the "Trinity" and debates about various aspects of it, than they are about the message of Jesus Christ (pbuh). As you yourself mentioned, conversations between Muslims and Christians inevitably gets stuck with the Trinity......Christians insist that the Trinity is a message of Jesus Christ (pbuh) when their own history tells a different tale and the Quran itself specifies pure monotheism. In some Christian denominations, "works" aren't even important---one requires "faith" (in Trinity) for salvation----which essentially nullifies any message of "doing good" that Jesus Christ(pbuh) mentioned in the NT......If you are interested in finding out what was the authentic message of Jesus Christ(pbuh) I invite you to read the Quran.

Another commonality between Christians and Muslims is Charity. (one of the pillars of Islam)

Love for neighbor (brotherhood) is also an important concept in Buddhism and other Eastern religions.......(the Golden rule of Confucious).....

God's will=Right belief that inspires right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.-----I think that sums it up.........

[siam]

Love of God----- "Long story short, It was stated that, from there perspective, there was no REAL commonality because (in their perspective) a Muslim's view of the love of God and neighbor (ala Muhammad) was incompatibly different than the Christian's view of the "love of God and neighbor" (ala Jesus). Just because two people talks using the same terms doesn't mean that they MEAN the same thing by those words. "
---I would agree with that----I did have a conversation with a Catholic about the term "Love of God"---from his perspective---this was all about what Jesus Christ (pbuh) had done for mankind---which was crucify himself......from the Muslim perspective,---the phrase means what human beings can DO for God. (Submit to his will---Islam=willing submission)

[YieldedOne]

Siam:
'And if Muslims and Christians BOTH venerate Jesus as Prophet and Messenger from God (which they do), then it would make sense if they 1) understand what he historically taught and 2) heeded it."
----That was sort of my point---as far as Muslims are concerned, what Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) taught IS in the Quran.----therefore, we Muslims DO follow the message of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and all the other Prophets before him, when we follow the Guidance of the Quran. We strive to live all of his message.

My point is that the "Two Commandments of Love" is so much of Isa's message, to strive to live ALL of his message cannot be without it. And that's just looking at all the historical data of what Jesus most likely taught. Seriously. Even the most liberal of scholars will not deny that the "historical" Jesus most likely actually knew the Shema well and taught about love of the neighbor as oneself.


**********************************


Siam:
Christians on the other hand, seem more concerned with the "Trinity" and debates about various aspects of it, than they are about the message of Jesus Christ (pbuh). As you yourself mentioned, conversations between Muslims and Christians inevitably gets stuck with the Trinity......Christians insist that the Trinity is a message of Jesus Christ (pbuh) when their own history tells a different tale and the Quran itself specifies pure monotheism. In some Christian denominations, "works" aren't even important---one requires "faith" (in Trinity) for salvation----which essentially nullifies any message of "doing good" that Jesus Christ(pbuh) mentioned in the NT......

That's exactly why focusing on Jesus as Messenger and Prophet of God who's teaching (Great Commandments) is faithfully followed by both parties...is much more helpful than starting the conversation around the Trinity.

***********************************


Siam:
If you are interested in finding out what was the authentic message of Jesus Christ(pbuh) I invite you to read the Quran.

From what I read, it seems simple to me: It's a Quranic re-iteration of the JEWISH Shema. Jesus taught 1) singular love for God and 2) self-giving love for all others in that singular love for God. That's how simple it is. I think.


************************************

Siam:
Another commonality between Christians and Muslims is Charity. (one of the pillars of Islam)

Yessir. Which is not far from "loving the neighbor as oneself" at all. Right?

************************************

Siam:
Love for neighbor (brotherhood) is also an important concept in Buddhism and other Eastern religions.......(the Golden rule of Confucious).....

Personally, I think this fact is representative of what it means to be truly human...but that's another discussion.

************************************

Siam:
God's will=Right belief that inspires right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.-----I think that sums it up.........

Right belief <=> Singleminded love for the Allah

Right intentions <=> Other-oriented love for others inspired from one's love of Allah

right actions <=> Concrete "living out" of one's right belief and intentions before Allah everyday

[YieldedOne]

Siam:
Love of God----- "Long story short, It was stated that, from there perspective, there was no REAL commonality because (in their perspective) a Muslim's view of the love of God and neighbor (ala Muhammad) was incompatibly different than the Christian's view of the "love of God and neighbor" (ala Jesus). Just because two people talks using the same terms doesn't mean that they MEAN the same thing by those words. "

---I would agree with that----I did have a conversation with a Catholic about the term "Love of God"---from his perspective---this was all about what Jesus Christ (pbuh) had done for mankind---which was crucify himself......from the Muslim perspective,---the phrase means what human beings can DO for God. (Submit to his will---Islam=willing submission)

Here's where things converges. From the perspective of Jesus, submission to God's will is necessarily related to love of one's neighbor as oneself: serving and benefiting others in the name of Allah. You can't fully do one without expressing it by way of the other.

If we forget the crucifixion for bit (GASP!!), we will see that this is something that both Muslims and Christians can and do agree on.

That's the absolute beauty of this to me: it's on quite historically solid ground ala what we know about what Jesus taught.

I once heard it said: "The faith IN Jesus divides. The faith OF Jesus unites."

[YieldedOne]

It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)

And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

If I take this Quranic passage seriously, then as a "person of the Gospel" (I guess this can mean "Christian", right) , I'd better "judge" what Allah has revealed Jesus' teaching...right? Because therein was "guidance" and "a light" This is the Quran telling me this, now...

*******************************************

'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.'
The Words of Jesus/Isa in Surah 43:63-64

*****************************************

And absolutely no true Christian would dispute that claim...

And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’”
--Luke 4:8

"If you love me, you will obey what I command."
--John 14:15

[siam]

It is good that you are looking for "common ground" on which to build dialogue, and I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm----but trying to teach Muslims about the message of Jesus Christ (pbuh) is a bit misguided---not to mention, arrogant----we already KNOW what Jesus Christ (pbuh) taught----ITS IN THE QURAN!!

I would humbly suggest that perhaps you try to learn about Islam/Muslims and find "common ground" that way. ---You might want to start with the most important concept in islam---which is Tawheed. All other concepts flow from this one. Therefore, "right belief"=Tawheed. Once tawheed is understood correctly, right intentions and right actions can flow properly through it......

There is only ONE God, the Unique, Uncreated creator of all creation. Therefore, in order to show him respect (God is genderless), we respect all his creation. This means, all our interactions with God's creation must be with the intention not to cause harm.
There is only One God---therefore all human beings, regardless of our religious affiliation or geographical location, are all equally God's creations. In this sense, we are all one family/brotherhood. When we interact with our fellow brothers and sisters with compassion and mercy (2 of God's attributes mentioned repeatedly in the Quran) out of "love of God" because they are equally his creation, we are confirming "right belief"/tawheed.
There is only One God----the earth and its rescources are also God's creations. These must be respected, and used wisely and with consideration.
To do otherwise is to selfishly put our needs above God's will (Tawheed)........without "right belief"/tawheed---arrogance, selfishness, greed, miserliness,....etc become the rulers....."right belief"/Tawheed helps us look beyond our "self" and this flows into right intentions that lead to right actions..........


by the way---not sure I would have used the word "singleminded"-----faith = The use of ones reason and intellect to arrive at conviction-----The Quran is against blind belief........

[siam]

God's will=Right belief that inspires right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations
..........translated into islamic concepts would be.....

Right belief = Tawheed (God is ONE)
right intentions = Taqwa (Love of God/God awareness)
right actions = Adl (in justice)
benefit of all of God's creations = trusteeship (God-given responsibility)

Muslim scholars have eleborated on each of these concepts (and others)....as you can see, from the formula----it is a more nuanced and sophisticated thought process that may seem simple on the surface but encapsulates a lot..........

[YieldedOne]

Siam:
It is good that you are looking for "common ground" on which to build dialogue, and I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm----but trying to teach Muslims about the message of Jesus Christ (pbuh) is a bit misguided---not to mention, arrogant----we already KNOW what Jesus Christ (pbuh) taught----ITS IN THE QURAN!!

Ok. I'm not trying to be arrogant...or teach people about Jesus per se. I'm just trying to see if the logic of my thinking works. About the Great Commandments, that is. Please forgive if it seems otherwise.

***************************************
Siam:
I would humbly suggest that perhaps you try to learn about Islam/Muslims and find "common ground" that way. ---You might want to start with the most important concept in islam---which is Tawheed. All other concepts flow from this one. Therefore, "right belief"=Tawheed. Once tawheed is understood correctly, right intentions and right actions can flow properly through it......

Siam, isn't Tawheed pretty much the same concept as the Jewish Shema? (The Lord is One) Christians are bound to the Shema by being within the "Great Commandments"

**************************************
Siam:
There is only ONE God, the Unique, Uncreated creator of all creation. Therefore, in order to show him respect (God is genderless), we respect all his creation. This means, all our interactions with God's creation must be with the intention not to cause harm.

There is only One God---therefore all human beings, regardless of our religious affiliation or geographical location, are all equally God's creations. In this sense, we are all one family/brotherhood. When we interact with our fellow brothers and sisters with compassion and mercy (2 of God's attributes mentioned repeatedly in the Quran) out of "love of God" because they are equally his creation, we are confirming "right belief"/tawheed.

There is only One God----the earth and its rescources are also God's creations. These must be respected, and used wisely and with consideration.

To do otherwise is to selfishly put our needs above God's will (Tawheed)........without "right belief"/tawheed---arrogance, selfishness, greed, miserliness,....etc become the rulers....."right belief"/Tawheed helps us look beyond our "self" and this flows into right intentions that lead to right actions..........

I don't see anything here that I disagree with. I do believe in One God, the One God whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped.


**************************************

Siam:
by the way---not sure I would have used the word "singleminded"-----faith = The use of ones reason and intellect to arrive at conviction-----The Quran is against blind belief........

Heh. I don't mean blind faith, bro. I mean "singleminded" as in submitting to God's will was Jesus' "single" focus. That's the singlemindness I'm talking about.


***************************************
Siam:
Right belief = Tawheed (God is ONE)
right intentions = Taqwa (Love of God/God awareness)
right actions = Adl (in justice)
benefit of all of God's creations = trusteeship (God-given responsibility)


Sounds cool to me.

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

[siam]

"Ok. I'm not trying to be arrogant"----my apologies then, I was mistaken.

Shema---Yes, Tawheed and Shema are similar. (Tawheed is more universal in scope)

It is great that Christians want to abide by the Shema. I hope they succeed because then they will be able to focus on the message of Jesus Christ(pbuh) instead of fighting/obsessing over Dogma?

If you feel that the Shema/Tawheed is something that is common to all 3 Abrahamic religions---there is nothing wrong with that logic----We Muslims simply go a step further and say that Tawheed is a message given to ALL mankind all over the world since the beginning---and is not confined to the Abrahamic religions alone.

An idea or philosophy by itself is simply words----it must be applied in order to be useful. Yet, a bunch of rules/laws will not work given our human nature/inclinations--we need to correctly understand in order to correctly apply. ---thus, belief, intentions and actions must be in harmony.----so how would you suggest Christians use/apply the Shema within Christianity? -----At the moment, it seems as if a square peg (polytheism) is being shoved into a round hole (monotheism):D

"I do believe in One God, the One God whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped."---interesting....might this be another "common ground"?

[YieldedOne]

Siam:
It is great that Christians want to abide by the Shema. I hope they succeed because then they will be able to focus on the message of Jesus Christ(pbuh) instead of fighting/obsessing over Dogma?

It really shouldn't be that hard. As I've mentioned before, Jesus' followers (Paul and others) talk about the Great Commandments being there "from the beginning". A Christian (a follower and disciple of Christ) cannot love God WITHOUT loving their neighbor as the self. If I heard any Christian saying that enforcing dogma was more important than loving the neighbor...I'd doubt they truly understood the Christian message...

Verification of Jesus' teachings by His disciples and followers:
"For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another." --1 John 3:11

For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” --Galatians 5:13-14, Paul

And that's not even counting 1 Corinthians 13 and what is says about everything being grounded in LOVE.

Again, if a Christian is NOT "loving the neighbor as oneself" then regardless of what they are more trinitarian or unitarian, they are STILL denying the faith.

******************************************

Siam:
An idea or philosophy by itself is simply words----it must be applied in order to be useful. Yet, a bunch of rules/laws will not work given our human nature/inclinations--we need to correctly understand in order to correctly apply. ---thus, belief, intentions and actions must be in harmony.----so how would you suggest Christians use/apply the Shema within Christianity? -----At the moment, it seems as if a square peg (polytheism) is being shoved into a round hole (monotheism):D

Heh. I'd be happy if Christians just learned to do what Jesus said first (ala loving God through loving the neighbor as oneself, loving your enemies, etc)...before we tried to establish and/or break down any implicit tri-theism that may be there. Gotta take one step at a time, ya know? :shade:

*****************************************

Siam:
"I do believe in One God, the One God whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped."---interesting....might this be another "common ground"?

I sure do believe so! What Christian can deny that statement, whether trinitarian or unitarian? None. And for certain no Muslim would deny that. Yep.

[YieldedOne]

I did some more thinking on Siam's stuff:
"I do believe in One God, the One God whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped."---interesting....might this be another "common ground"?

Doing some more thinking on the "credo" stated:

"I/We believe in One God: the One God whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped."

It seems to me that this affirmation of faith would be directly applicable to Muslims and the "People of the Book" (namely adherents of Judaism and Christianity).

A Jewish Rabbi, a Muslim Imam, and a Christian priest could say this affirmation with absolutely no sense of compromise. All three religious leaders worship the One "Covanental" God to whom Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus related. Regardless of what the three think about Jesus being Messiah or Jesus being the Son of God, they would ALL KNOW FOR CERTAIN that they are indeed talking about the same God.

The most that each could say about the others is that said others worship God incompletely or wrongly. But NONE OF THEM could say that the other worshipped a totally different, "idolatrous" God. That would not even be the truth. Literally, it would NOT be a true statement! :omg:

Wow.

Then all of Siam's statements follow:

There is only ONE God, the Unique, Uncreated creator of all creation. Therefore, in order to show him respect (God is genderless), we respect all his creation. This means, all our interactions with God's creation must be with the intention not to cause harm.

There is only One God---therefore all human beings, regardless of our religious affiliation or geographical location, are all equally God's creations. In this sense, we are all one family/brotherhood. When we interact with our fellow brothers and sisters with compassion and mercy out of "love of God" because they are equally his creation, we are confirming "right belief" (Tawheed).

There is only One God----the earth and its rescources are also God's creations. These must be respected, and used wisely and with consideration.

To do otherwise is to selfishly put our needs above God's will (Tawheed)........without "right belief"/tawheed---arrogance, selfishness, greed, miserliness,....etc become the rulers....."right belief"/tawheed helps us look beyond our "self" and this flows into right intentions that lead to right actions..........

Technically speaking, any person who could say "the credo" would be believing in just the "One God" described above. Neither the Rabbi, nor the Imam, nor the Priest should be able to deny Siam's articulations here.

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice. :shade:

Thanks for all the interaction, Siam and others. It's been tremendously helpful. Blessings be, yo! :statisfie

[YieldedOne]

A picture I like from during the protests in Egypt...

At this point, I'd subtitle this..."We believe in One God: the One God whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped!"

:D

From the article...

I was told: "We are all in this together. Muslims and Christians." Other people were listening and nodding. "One hand, one hand," the crowd roared.
This time they were not talking about the people and the army, as they had a few days earlier, but about Egyptian unity. Muslims and Christians: One hand.

[YieldedOne]

Now that's God. :statisfie

Whole thread at a glance.

[Ramadhan]

Religious tolerance is one thing, but trying to obfscate who we all worship is another. And obfuscation is what I think you are trying to do.

That's right, muslims worship the God that Ibrahim, musa, Isa, Muhammad (pbut) all worshiped,
BUT
muslims definitely do NOT worship Christian god (the father, isa and holy spirit).

So quit trying as if we worship the same God. It gets nauseating after a while.

I certainly do not worship Isa, I worship the God that Isa (pbuh) worship
but christian worship Isa (p),
so do not make it as if christians do not worship Isa (p).

[YieldedOne]

Hey, Naidamar. Good to see ya! :shade:

Let's do it...

naidamar:
Religious tolerance is one thing, but trying to obfscate who we all worship is another. And obfuscation is what I think you are trying to do.

That's right, muslims worship the God that Ibrahim, musa, Isa, Muhammad (pbut) all worshiped, BUT muslims definitely do NOT worship Christian god (the father, isa and holy spirit).

So quit trying as if we worship the same God. It gets nauseating after a while.


Ok. At the risk of being redundant...I'm going to review a post from a coupla days ago...and then restate my position.

It's funny. I've been accused by Christians AND Muslims of trying to "gloss over" the differences of the two religions by this focus on the Great Commandments as taught by Jesus. I don't see how that can be the case though. It is crystal clear to me that true Muslims will never be trinitarians (Jesus is NOT the Son of God) and true Christians will never NOT be trinitarian (Jesus IS the Son of God). No amount of discussion will ever change that, I don't think. So there could never be some kind of one-world-religion "gloss over" in that respect. Islam and Christians, though both Abrahamic religions, are absolutely, immutably distinct from one another. And I think that should be said upfront. No "Christianizing" Islam or "Islamizing" Christianity possible. All I'm saying is that, even within those inevitable differences, there is a core that allows for effective common ground for both that doesn't compromise the faith of EITHER GROUP.

If you check the underlined parts, you will see that I clearly state that true Muslims are not (and never will be) trinitarians and true Christians are not (and never will be) monadic/unitarian. Why? Simple. Because Christians do believe in Jesus being the Eternal Son of God...and Muslims do not. That's basically what it comes down to. The only reason Christians even worship Jesus is because of the "Eternal Son of God" belief. Even the Nicene Creed makes this clear...

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father...

But NONE OF THIS, brother, means that Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God. The most that can be said is that 1) Muslims don't view the One God as triune and thus 2) worship of the One God as triune (ie. involving Jesus being the Eternal Son of God) is inaccurate and/or inadequate worship. You can't LOGICALLY say that Christians worship a fundamentally and absolutely different God from the One God who Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David all worshipped. Because that's simply not the truth. It is not a true statement to say that Christians do not worship the One God of Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David. It is not a true statement to say that Muslims do not worship the One God of Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David.

And let's not forget the Quran...29:46

Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our God and your God is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."

Brother naidamar, does the Quranic verse above directly state that the God of the "people of the Scripture" is "one and the same" with the God of Muslims? Just looking at the text now...


***************************

naidamar:
I certainly do not worship Isa, I worship the God that Isa (pbuh) worship
but christian worship Isa (p),
so do not make it as if christians do not worship Isa (p).

1) I've never said that Christians don't worship Jesus as the Son of God. Show me any place on this thread or any other where I've made such an assertion, please.

2) The only reason that Christians worship Isa in the first place is because they believe that Christ has been EXALTED by the One God (spoken of in the Nicene Creed) who sent him. That's it. Please note: The only reason that Christians worship Christ is because they believe that the One God has told them to do so.

You don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God, therefore you don't worship him as such. You don't believe that the One God is triune. That's entirely fair, bro. But to say that you don't worship the same One God that Christians do just because you don't believe that the Jesus is the Son of God is INACCURATE, at best.

[YieldedOne]

Is there anyone here (Muslim, Christian, or otherwise) who can adequate demonstrate from the Quran or any hadith how the God of the "people of the Scripture"--presumably, the One God who was worshipped by Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David--and the God of Muslims is NOT "one and the same"?

I'm open for anyone who wants to show me how that works. I will change my view on the spot.

Do not argue with the people of the scripture except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our God and your God is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."

I'm not talking about demonstrating that Muslims don't believe in a trinitarian view of the One God, while Christians do. That's obviously there. I'm talking about demonstrating that Muslims worship an entirely different God than Christians do.

It is one thing for Muslims to say that Christians think of the One God WRONGLY (ie triune) and thus worship him WRONGLY (ie worshipping Jesus as Eternal Son of God). It's a whole different thing for Muslims to accuse Christians worshipping a deity totally and entirely distinct from the One God of Jesus, Abraham, Moses and David that they do.

[YieldedOne]

More Maududi...

From the Note on Quran 3:3...

--------------------------------

The Old Testament was compiled by Ezra, when the Israelites returned home to Jerusalem after their captivity in Babylon and built the Temple anew. Ezra gathered together some prominent men of his community, and with their help compiled the whole history of Israel which now comprises the first 17 books of the Bible. Of these Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronorny tell the life history of Prophet Moses and include those verses of the real Taurat which became available to Ezra and his assistants, who incorporated them in those books at appropriate places in the chronological order of their revelation. Thus it is obvious that the Pentateuch as a whole is not the Taurat but includes it. The real Taurat comprises those verses which are scattered all over the life story of Prophet Moses, and it is not difficult even today to locate and recognize them. Such portions where the author says, "God said to Moses," or Moses said, The Lord your God says," the Taurat begins, and where the narrative of the life story is resumed, there that part of the Taurat ends. At those places the author of the Bible has inserted certain things by way of explanation or commentary, and it is here that the ordinary reader fails to distinguish the real Taurat from the commentary. However, those who have an insight into the nature of Divine Scriptures, can distinguish, to some degree of exactness, the explanatory. notes from the revealed verses.

According to the Qur'an, only such scattered portions in the Pentateuch are the Taurat and it confirms them alone. And this can be testified by putting together these verses and comparing them with the Qur'an. Here and there one might come across a minor difference in their details, but one cannot find even the slightest difference between the fundamental teachings of the two. Even today one can see clearly that both the Scriptures have come from the same source.

Likewise, the Injil is the name of those inspired discourses and sayings which Jesus (Allah's peace be upon him) uttered as a prophet during the last couple of years of his life. We have no means now of ascertaining whether these pious utterances were recorded and compiled during the lifetime of Jesus. In the introduction to his translation of the Bible, Moffat says, "Jesus wrote nothing and for a time his immediate disciples felt no impulse to write any account of him. The data of the historical Jesus, therefore is based on the vivid recollections and traditions of the primitive Palestinian disciples. How soon their materials took written shape we cannot tell, but at least one written record of them was probably in existence by about A.D.50." Anyhow, when, long after his recall, the stories of Jesus were compiled in the shape of four Gospels, (the period of the composition of Mark, the tirst to be composed was 65-75 A.D.), some of his written or inspired sayings were also inserted at appropriate places in the historical sketches. Thus it is obvious that the first four Gospels are not the Injil, the discourses and sayings of Jesus, but they contain it. We have no means of recognizing thetas from the works of the authors except this: Wherever the authors say "Jesus said so or taught so and so," there the Injil begins and where they resume the narration, there it ends. According to the Qur'an, only such portions are the Injil and these alone are condensed by it. If these portions are compiled together and compared with the Qur'an, one will tied no serious difference between the two, and, if somewhere a trivial difference appears, it can be removed very easily with unbiased thinking.

-------------------------------------------


Does anyone here disagree with Mr. Maududi's view on this? If so, why?



*****************

"And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying...": Leviticus 19:1

“Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the rules that the Lord your God commanded me to teach you, that you may do them in the land to which you are going over, to possess it: Deuteronomy 6:1

But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he (Jesus) said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”: Matthew 22:34-40

[Ramadhan]

Yieldedone,


Why do missionaries need to be so deceptive?
(that's a rethorical question by the way, missionaries need to be deceptive because they dont have the truth)

Why do you not just accept that Christians do not worshiped the God that Ibrahim, Musa, Isa and Muhammad (pbut) worshiped?
Ibrahim (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).
Musa (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).
Isa (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).
Muhammad (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).

Even Isa's apostles never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).

I am glad you bring up the Nicene creed, so it is crystal clear that current christians worshiped The God of Nicene creed.

[YieldedOne]

naidamar:
Why do missionaries need to be so deceptive?

Umm...who's a missionary? I know I'm not. And what does that have to do with anything anyways? ^o)

*************************

naidamar:
Why do you not just accept that Christians do not worshiped the God that Ibrahim, Musa, Isa and Muhammad (pbut) worshiped?

Ibrahim (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).
Musa (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).
Isa (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).
Muhammad (pbuh) certainly never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).
Even Isa's apostles never worshiped holy spirit and isa (p).

All you are saying, brother naidamar, is that Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and the apostles were not trinitarian qua church creeds. That's all that you are saying, bro. But not even conservative Christian scholars would argue THAT particular point.

Do you not see that this doesn't touch the essential question at hand?

*****************************

Naidamar:
I am glad you bring up the Nicene creed, so it is crystal clear that current christians worshiped The God of Nicene creed.

Umm...to worship the God represented in the Nicene Creed MEANS to believe in ONE GOD, bro. (See the first line of it?) The "ONE GOD" claim in the Nicene Creed is from the Jewish Shema that Jesus spoke and lived in worship. You know this, right? There would be no concept of "Son of God" or "Exalted Messiah of God" without the ONE GOD we are talking about.

Are you not seeing this, homie? :hmm:

[siam]

All worship and prayers go to the One God irrespective of our religious lables or concepts. All creation comes from him and will return to him.

Yet, I agree with naidamar that when trinitarian Christians claim they worship ONE God of the Shema/Tawheed, they only decieve themselves.

Surah 112
1. Say: He is God, the ONE
2. God the eternal, absolute,
3. He Begetteth not, nor is he begetton.
4. And there is none like unto him.

The concept of God of the Shema and Tawheed is Indivisible, Unique, One
The concept of God of the Shema and Tawheed is NOT a triune God, is not a 3-in-one God....
Neither Jews nor Muslims accept ONE God to mean a triune God.

So then, Christians have a dilemma ---they can ignore the Torah and the Quran and stick with their triune concept of God. or they can accept the Shema/Tawheed and follow the teachings of the (Jewish) Jesus Christ (pbuh) and ignore the concept of a triune God. If they choose the first path, and they intend to stay true to it, they must accept that they are polytheists. If they choose the other path, and intend to stay true to it, they must accept that a triune concept of God is incompatible with the monotheism of the Shema/Judaism and Tawheed/Islam.

Christians have chosen neither path----they simply obsess and fight over the intricacies of their triune concept of God, forgetting both the Shema and the many wisdom teachings of Jesus Christ(pbuh). They choose to decieve themselves using words (and technicalities). They are true to neither their Triune God, nor to the ONE Indivisible Unique God worshipped by Jesus Christ (pbuh) and all the other Prophets.


Jewish monotheistic concept of God......
"Judaism is based on a strict monotheism. This doctrine expresses the belief in one indivisible God. The worship of multiple gods (polytheism) and the concept of a Singular God having multiple persons (as in the doctrine of Trinity) are equally unimaginable in Judaism. The statement par excellence in terms of defining God is the Shema Yisrael, originally appearing in the Hebrew Bible: "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One", also translated as "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is unique/alone."[Deut. 6:4]"----wikipedia

The Hindu polytheistic concept of God....
There is One supreme God. Brahma, Vishnu and Siva are not three independent and separate deities, but three different aspects of the same Supreme God, The descent of God to Earth in corporeal form to restore dharma to society and to guide humans to moksha, as an incarnation is called an avatar.
(Christian = 3-in-one God , the Hindu = 100s-in-one God)

Thomas Paine----"...But it is necessary to the happiness of man, that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing or disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe."

When Muslims and Jews allow triune Christians to claim they are monotheists, We do not compromise our beliefs. It is only Chrsitians who decieve themselves. The Hindus do not bother to hide behind the label of "monotheism"....why do Christians? Why claim you believe in the Jewish Shema when you well know you do not?

However, YO, you are also correct that the way forward in finding "common ground" is not in what we believe, but what we do-----when we concentrate on this aspect of our religions-----the aspect that helps us be better human beings, we can all find ways to co-operate with each other to build better selves and a better world.......

[YieldedOne]

Siam:
All worship and prayers go to the One God irrespective of our religious lables or concepts. All creation comes from him and will return to him.

I fundamentally believe that to be true. If Christians worship and call upon the God of Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David wrongly, I trust that the ignorant sincerity of heart is there. I trust that God is the Most Compassionate and Merciful. I pray that Allah searches my heart and forgives my errancy.


*****************************************


Siam:
Yet, I agree with naidamar that when trinitarian Christians claim they worship ONE God of the Shema/Tawheed, they only decieve themselves.
and...
When Muslims and Jews allow triune Christians to claim they are monotheists, We do not compromise our beliefs. It is only Chrsitians who decieve themselves. The Hindus do not bother to hide behind the label of "monotheism"....why do Christians? Why claim you believe in the Jewish Shema when you well know you do not?

If you believe that we (Christians) are self-deceived, then there's really nothing we can do about that. Not right now, at least. I do believe that there is a reasonable defense for thinking of God as triune uncreated reality...but that's far afield what I'm trying to do here right now. Currently, I'll settle for whether or not it's reasonable to say that Isa's Great Commandments are essential for "true" Muslim faith (ala Abd Al-Ati). I will accept that I possibly worship the One God (whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped) WRONGLY from self-deceit. But we can still be good "neighbors", right?

Maybe on another thread, though... ;D

****************************************
Siam:
However, YO, you are also correct that the way forward in finding "common ground" is not in what we believe, but what we do-----when we concentrate on this aspect of our religions-----the aspect that helps us be better human beings, we can all find ways to co-operate with each other to build better selves and a better world.......

Cool. :shade:

[YieldedOne]

Interestingly enough, this is a good time to take things all the way back to the beginning. Of how the title of this thread is actually relevent. Admittedly, it's said kind of stated boldly. But not dishonestly or disrespectfully. I am not about disrespecting my brothers and sisters in Islam. No way. But I do feel like the line of thought is very solid. If it's not, shoot it down, siblings. I really want to know if the thinking works or not.

Siam, I’d love your take on this. Yours too, naidamar…


************************************************** **************

Major Point:
Qur'anically speaking, a person cannot be a "true", faithful Muslim without heeding Jesus/Isa's Torat-Injeel teaching about "loving the neighbor as oneself".


Discussion of Major Point:
According to Hammudat Abd Al-Ati's summary of the fundamental articles of Islamic faith--found in his work "Islam in Focus"---true, faithful Muslims are obligated by their faith to believe what can be reasonably discerned as authentic, uncorrupted Torah (Torat) and Gospel (Injeel) teaching from the Holy Books of the "people of the Book", namely Jews and Christians. This is explicitly affirmed within the Qur'an. (Surahs 2:136, with cross referencing of 3:1-4; 3:84; 4:163-165; 6:84-87.) Moreover, true Muslims are to fully obey the divinely revealed teaching of God's Messenger and Prophet, Isa/Jesus (Surah 43:63-64), as Jesus' teaching was "confirming the Torah" which antedated him. (Surah 61:6-7)

Given all this, if it is true that Deuteronomy 6:4-6 and Leviticus 19:9-18 (The Great Commandments of Jesus ala Matthew 22:34-40) are good candididates for authentic Torat and Injeel material--per meeting the specifications of accepted Islamic commentaries, such as those produced by Maulana Maududi--then, from Hammudah Abd Al-Ati's perspective and others like Sohaib N. Sultan* --, the "true Muslim" absolutely must believe in those passages as genuine revelation from Allah and live them out faithfully. To do otherwise is to implicitly break faith with Allah and rebel against Allah's truth as revealed by a divinely-sent Messenger, Prophet, and Messiah, Isa/Jesus.


Implications of Major Point and Discussion:
Muslims and Christians are bound by mutually-held belief in Jesus/Isa as Allah's Mesenger and Prophet and his teaching of the "Great Commandments" such that both groups are committed by their own holy books to heed Jesus/Isa's commands to "love your neighbor as yourself."

----------------------------------

Sohib N. Sultan's The Qur'an and Sayings of Prophet Muhammad: Selections Annotated & Explained on page 24, where there was comment on Surah 3:3-4...

The Torah of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus are mentioned here as scriptures that were sent by God for the purpose of guidance. As such, Muslims are required, by faith, to believe in the unaltered, original Torah and Gospel as books of revelation. However, emphasis must be placed on the word "original" because Muslims believe that the Torah and Gospel were altered by the hands of men in later generations.

[YieldedOne]

"Wherever authors and editors of the Bible have added anything of their own accord, by way of either elaboration or elucidation, it has become very difficult for an ordinary reader to distinguish the original from the explanatory additions. Those with insight into Divine Scripture, however, do have the capacity to distinguish between the original revealed fragments and the later, human interpolations."
--Maulana Maududi

************************************************** ********

The real Taurat comprises those verses which are scattered all over the life story of Prophet Moses, and it is not difficult even today to locate and recognize them.

...

We have no means of recognizing thetas from the works of the authors except this: Wherever the authors say "Jesus said so or taught so and so," there the Injil begins and where they resume the narration, there it ends. According to the Qur'an, only such portions are the Injil and these alone are condensed by it. If these portions are compiled together and compared with the Qur'an, one will find no serious difference between the two, and, if somewhere a trivial difference appears, it can be removed very easily with unbiased thinking.
--Maulana Maududi

[siam]

"But we can still be good "neighbors", right?"-----perhaps you are getting my point.....
You see, what I believe or what you believe is irrelevant to being "good neighbors"-----a Hindu person or a Shinto person can also equally be a "good neighbor" and be true to their beliefs.......

therefore--your major point ---"Qur'anically speaking, a person cannot be a "true", faithful Muslim without heeding Jesus/Isa's Torat-Injeel teaching about "loving the neighbor as oneself".
seems to unnecessarily limit what it means to be a Muslim from a Muslim perspective. It seems you (or someone) may have substituted " Bliblically speaking" with "Quranically speaking" and "true faithful Christian" with "true faithful Muslim ". While Christians are still figuring out what it means to be a "true faithful Christian", We Muslims already know what it is to be a Muslim---and it starts with the 5 pillars. That there are teachings of Jesus Christ(pbuh) of deep spirituality and wisdom may come as "news" to some Christians who have been obsessing exclusively about the trinity. We Muslims have known and strived to follow these teachings for 1400 years....its not "news" to us.

So....in concrete terms, how do you propose Christians and Muslims be good neighbors?......what areas of co-operation do you forsee?

[YieldedOne]

YO: But we can still be good "neighbors", right?"

Siam: perhaps you are getting my point.....You see, what I believe or what you believe is irrelevant to being "good neighbors"-----a Hindu person or a Shinto person can also equally be a "good neighbor" and be true to their beliefs.

The major difference here is that a Hindu, Shinto, or Buddhist practitioner would not be being "good neighbors" from the stance of obedience to a prophetic word from the One God whom Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David worshipped. In short, they wouldn't be doing it as "people of the Book." Yes, they would be consistent with their own beliefs...and that's great. But it would not be from the theological "common ground" that Muslims and Christians have in Jesus/Isa as sinless Messenger, Servant and Prophet of Allah.

*********************************
Siam:
therefore--your major point ---"Qur'anically speaking, a person cannot be a "true", faithful Muslim without heeding Jesus/Isa's Torat-Injeel teaching about "loving the neighbor as oneself".
seems to unnecessarily limit what it means to be a Muslim from a Muslim perspective.

Hmmm...I don't see how the idea is "limiting" at all. The idea doesn't replace or negate the 5 pillars or any other basic duty of Islamic faith. If anything, it complements those beliefs. How does it "limit"?


**********************************
Siam:
It seems you (or someone) may have substituted " Bliblically speaking" with "Quranically speaking" and "true faithful Christian" with "true faithful Muslim ".

Actually, nope. What I did was take very seriously what Sohib N. Sultan and Hammudat Abd Al-Ati were saying in their works. Abd Al-Ati starts out saying thus...exact quote...

"The true, faithful Muslim believes in the following principal articles of faith..."

So that's EXACTLY where I got the "true, faithful Muslim" language. Nowhere else!

*********************************

Siam:
While Christians are still figuring out what it means to be a "true faithful Christian", We Muslims already know what it is to be a Muslim---and it starts with the 5 pillars. That there are teachings of Jesus Christ(pbuh) of deep spirituality and wisdom may come as "news" to some Christians who have been obsessing exclusively about the trinity. We Muslims have known and strived to follow these teachings for 1400 years....its not "news" to us.

Ok. That's awesome. For my perspective, it's just good to see that there is genuine, authentic "common ground" between Islam and Christianity that is DEMONSTRABLE. And if my line of thinking works (which I genuine believe it does), then it is very demonstrable.


*********************************
Siam:
So....in concrete terms, how do you propose Christians and Muslims be good neighbors?......what areas of co-operation do you forsee?

First, I propose that standard criteria be set up for the background of Muslim/Christian dialogue based solidly on what's been discussed here. Specifically the following:

Torah-asserted, Isa-affirmed Commandments from God
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Torah-asserted, Isa-affirmed Criteria for "Loving Your Neighbor As Yourself"(Leviticus 19:9-18)
1) When you gain from your work, don't just think about yourself. Think of the poor and the wayfarer.
2) Don't steal.
3) Don't operate by false pretenses or motives.
4) Don't lie to each other.
5) Don't oppress or rob your neighbor.
6) Don't mistreat the physically (or mentally) challenged.
7) Don't promote injustice or partiality. Judge righteously.
8) Don't slander others.
9) Don’t threaten the life of your neighbors.
10) Don't hate your brother (or sister) "in your heart."
11) Don't take vengeance for yourself.
12) Don't hold a grudge against your neighbor.

Basically, this list would be AGREED UPON as a fundamental basis for all interfaith (and intrafaith) interaction, discussion, and dialogue. That simply means no begrudging, no slander, no manipulation, etc, for ANYONE who believes in Jesus/Isa as genuine Prophet and Messenger of Allah. Both Muslims and Christians would be held to these standards of discourse out of faithful obedience the same Prophet of God, Isa.

As I see many Muslim/Christian dialogues, they seem rife with incivility and hidden resentment. The "Loving your Neighbor As Yourself" standards, being more objective and agreed upon, can stem at least some of this. Can you imagine how much more productive Muslims and Christians could work together if we DIDN'T HOLD GRUDGES about the past?? Just that one ALONE would make such a difference.

The "areas of cooperation" are endless as there is much suffering and redemption in the world that is to be done. Who knows? Maybe together we can be that "band of people"...right, Siam? :D

"Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: they are the ones to attain felicity."

Thanks for this, again, Siam. It's a beautiful hope to ponder!

"One hand, one hand!"

[YieldedOne]

Here's another thing:
There should never be any context where a true, faithful Christian and a true, faithful Muslim are actively trying to hate one another, take vengeance on one another, or threaten the lives of one another. They should only endeavor to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, per Jesus/Isa's personal example and Torat-Injeel teaching.


------------------------

Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Criteria for "Loving Your Neighbor As Yourself"(Leviticus 19:9-18)
1) When you gain from your work, don't just think about yourself. Think of the poor and the wayfarer.
2) Don't steal.
3) Don't operate by false pretenses or motives.
4) Don't lie to each other.
5) Don't oppress or rob your neighbor.
6) Don't mistreat the physically (or mentally) challenged.
7) Don't promote injustice or partiality. Judge righteously.
8) Don't slander others.
9) Don’t threaten the life of your neighbors.
10) Don't hate your brother (or sister) "in your heart."
11) Don't take vengeance for yourself.
12) Don't hold a grudge against your neighbor.


The "New" Commandment from Jesus
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another."

"This is my command: Love each other."

[YieldedOne]

So, naidamar. What it do, homie? What's your thoughts on it?

:?

[Ramadhan]

I agree with most of what Siam wrote, with an addition:

In terms of preaching religious tolerance, you are preaching to the believers, grandpa.
You should go to christian forums instead and preach tolerance there.

Facts:
- christians in the world's largest muslim country enjoy rights that muslims in the west can only dream of.
- compare how many muslims have christians killed and the other way around?

[YieldedOne]

naidamar:
In terms of preaching religious tolerance, you are preaching to the believers, grandpa.

1) What I'm talking about is deeper than mere religious tolerance. It's about having a real "common ground" between Islam and Christian that is not contrived and is verifiable by any who want to actually look at the data. That's extremely important, I believe.

2) Grandpa? LOL! Whatever, lil' whipper-snapper...:giggling:

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naidamar:
You should go to christian forums instead and preach tolerance there.

1) I do visit Christian forums...and I have talked about this idea on those forums. I'm currently interacting there as well.

2) I'm not trying to preach (what use is that?). I just wanted to verify the strength of my line of thinking with intelligent Muslim brothers and sisters. Again, I feel the thinking is very strong...and I just wanted to make sure.

3) I do plan on responding to THIS GUY. His name is John Piper, and he's a Christian minister from MN. He's one of those who doesn't believe that Muslims and Christians believe in the same God, doesn't feel there's any real common ground between Islam and Christianity...and didn't like "A Common Word".

I want to tell him that he's wrong on ALL COUNTS.

****************************************
Naidamar:
Facts:
- christians in the world's largest muslim country enjoy rights that muslims in the west can only dream of.
- compare how many muslims have christians killed and the other way around?

I don't care if they are Christians or Muslims, if they are not loving God through loving their neighbor, their behavior is far less than Allah calls for. Christians have done their share of ungodly behavior. So have Muslims. Any unloving behavior sucks in my eyes. That's just me. :)

Thanks, everyone.

[Ramadhan]

1) What I'm talking about is deeper than mere religious tolerance. It's about having a real "common ground" between Islam and Christian that is not contrived and is verifiable by any who want to actually look at the data. That's extremely important, I believe.

As I -and others- have said, there's nothing contrived about Islamic belief, and about who muslims worship.

How many times have I told you:

Muslims worship the God that Ibrahim, Musa, Isa and Muhammad (pbut) all worshipped.

there's nothing contrived about God the creator of everything who has no partner, who has no son.

It is not muslims problem that christians find that hard to accept and it is not muslims problem that christians worship the God that Nicene creed worship, instead of the God that Ibrahim, Musa, Isa and Muhammd (pbut) worshiped.

Now, away you go and ask christians whether they worship the God that Ibrahim, Musa, Isa, and Muhammad (pbut) worshiped.

And come back here if the answer is affirmative.

[siam]

the limitiations of your point------

there are so many I don't know where to start----nevertheless.....

1) why should Muslims limit themselves to "rules" that would apply only to Muslim-Christian dialogue?---waste of time when there are so many faiths and so many interfaith dialogues can take place.....
2) if there are concerns about uncivilized dialogue---then establishing basic rules of manners/ettiquette should take care of the problem.---rules that would apply to all interfaith dialogues---not just Muslim-Christian
3) why should Muslims make new limited definitions of "what it means to be a Muslim"---just to accomodate some Christian need for "interfaith dialogue" based only on THEIR criteria? We already have a criteria for what it means to be a Muslim and this criteria isn't simply theoretical, but also practical. WE LIVE IT.
4) why should Muslims limit our understanding of the full "authentic" message of Jesus Christ(pbuh) to the two commandments mentioned by you/Christians? We already have guidance not only of his message, (and of all the Prophets before him) but also how to concretely apply it and live it---its in the Quran.

---Your "major point" is limiting because it limits taqwa to the 'love yr neighbor" bit, whereas Islam already has a fully developed and nuanced concept of taqwa.

If you want to build a criteria---would it not be better to build it from a full, "authentic" background rather than an incomplete/flawed background?---so read the Quran, understand Islamic philosophy and law then find "common ground" with the teachings of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) that you already have in yr NT---that would work better for you---then you can come to us Muslims with a proper and more complete "criteria"......and with the help of the Guidance of the Quran---this criteria will be applicable/achievable as well.

For example, one of the teachings of Prophet Jesus(pbuh) is about Usury(interest)---it is also mentioned in the Quran----however, the Quran also provides the overall principles for economics and bussiness that make this teaching applicable and achievable...........social justice is another area......


By the way----Buddhist, Hindus...etc are also creations of the ONE God and the "children of Adam". A Just, Compassionate and Merciful God provides Guidance and Truth to all mankind. To be exclusive would be unjust.
Quran Surahy 16, verse 36
"for We certainly sent amongst every people a Messenger, (with the command) "Serve God and turn from evil": Of the people were some whom God Guided and some on whom error became inevitably (established). ...." (partial verse)
We all have a solid "common ground" we are all brothers and sisters in humanity----its a powerful concept........Universal enough to be inclusive yet can function within the narrower limits of "Muslim-Christian" dialogue as well.

Though your 'major point" is narrow in scope and exclusive---it is nevertheless workable and perhaps can be seen as a starting point for Christians.

[YieldedOne]

Naidamar:
As I -and others- have said, there's nothing contrived about Islamic belief, and about who muslims worship.
How many times have I told you:
Muslims worship the God that Ibrahim, Musa, Isa and Muhammad (pbut) all worshipped.
there's nothing contrived about God the creator of everything who has no partner, who has no son.

I'm afraid you've mistaken me. I didn't say that Islamic belief was contrived. (That would be rude, now, wouldn't it?) I talked about having a common ground between Islam and Christianity that is not contrived in nature. Just for clarification.


***************************


Naidamar:
It is not muslims problem that christians find that hard to accept and it is not muslims problem that christians worship the God that Nicene creed worship, instead of the God that Ibrahim, Musa, Isa and Muhammd (pbut) worshiped.

You keep saying the same thing, brother naidamar. Namely that Abraham, Moses, Jesus, (and Muhammad) are not church-creed trinitarians. Which seems frankly obvious to me. But this KEEPS missing the point. You may believe that the "One God" spoken of in the Nicene creed is unintelligble, but others do not. And the fact is that the "One God" spoken of in the Nicene Creed is seen by Christians to be the ONE God to whom Abraham, Moses, and Jesus covenantally related. You can ask any knowledgeable Christian that, and they will agree.


********************************

Naidamar:
Now, away you go and ask christians whether they worship the God that Ibrahim, Musa, Isa, and Muhammad (pbut) worshiped. And come back here if the answer is affirmative.

Heh. You've added the Muhammad part, but what should I expect, I guess? At any rate, I believe that the answer would be the same, barring Christian ignorance about Muhammad. That is to say, I could easily see Christians who don't know about Muhammad and his relationship to the God of the "People of the Book" following ignorant stereotypes and saying that they DON'T worship the same God as Muhammad. "He's a Muslim and he don't believe in God's Son! We don't worship the same God!!" Luckily, I know of more informed Christians on discussion boards for whom the answer WOULD be the affirmative. So, there you go.

********************************

Talking about "limitations"...

Siam:
1) why should Muslims limit themselves to "rules" that would apply only to Muslim-Christian dialogue?---waste of time when there are so many faiths and so many interfaith dialogues can take place.....

Wow. There sure is some kind of importance on this board about "wasting time". I've seen that quite a bit from the Muslims here. Interesting. At any rate, to just place this in the scope of limitation to rules of interfaith dialogue/engagemet seems quite inaccurate, if not reductionistic. The idea is based upon how Muslims can view Jesus/Isa's "Great Commandments" as relevant to Muslim faith using 1) the Quran 2) authoritative sources which help discern authentic Torat and Injeel [ala Maulana Maududi's "The Meaning of the Quran"] and 3) the Quranically-specifically "holy books" wherein the Torat and Injeel exist. This idea provides the "common ground" that I've been talking about. So, to restate, this whole thing is not merely about seeking some mutually beneficial rules of engagement for interfaith dialogue. There's other things for that. This is more specific and localized more in the relationship between Islam and Jesus, reaffirmer of the Torat and bringer of the Injeel.


****************************************


Siam:
if there are concerns about uncivilized dialogue---then establishing basic rules of manners/ettiquette should take care of the problem.---rules that would apply to all interfaith dialogues---not just Muslim-Christian.

The concern is not merely about uncivilized dialogue, obviously. It's also about the dividing categories that Muslims and Christians place themselves in as if there is no common ground. Unto both groups being violent with each other (See Muslim/Copt situation in Egypt). Again, there are already rules of etiquette set up by different pan-faith societies. That's not the quintessence of what this is, though it is related.


********************************************

Siam:
3) why should Muslims make new limited definitions of "what it means to be a Muslim"---just to accomodate some Christian need for "interfaith dialogue" based only on THEIR criteria? We already have a criteria for what it means to be a Muslim and this criteria isn't simply theoretical, but also practical. WE LIVE IT.

My line of thinking basically makes this claim: Because of who Jesus/Isa is as Prophet and Messenger of God...and reifier of the Torat and bringer of the Injeel...the "Great Commandments" (Deut 6:4-6; Lev. 19:9-18) are relevant (important) to Muslim faith. Given what the Quran says about 1) Jesus 2) the Torat and 3) the Injeel...as well as what M. Maududi says about how to distinguish them...it seems that this is speaking ABOUT Muslim faith from the perspective of Muslim faith. This is not about Christians imposing criteria on Muslims at all. Just look at the argument again. For any intelligent Muslims who actually WANT to use Maududi's work to discern authentic Torat and Injeel, this would apply. You see that, right?


*******************************************
Siam:
4) why should Muslims limit our understanding of the full "authentic" message of Jesus Christ(pbuh) to the two commandments mentioned by you/Christians? We already have guidance not only of his message, (and of all the Prophets before him) but also how to concretely apply it and live it---its in the Quran.

Let's get this very clear. I am NOT saying that Muslims should ditch everything they know about Jesus from the Quran and displace and/or replace them with the Great Commandments. My line of thought doesn't mandate such a thing at all. I am saying that the Great Commandments of Jesus are an aspect of the message of Jesus that CANNOT be ignored, given what the Quran says on the matter. Especially when there are means available to NOT ignore it (ala Maududi's work).


********************************************

Siam:
Your "major point" is limiting because it limits taqwa to the 'love yr neighbor" bit, whereas Islam already has a fully developed and nuanced concept of taqwa.

This would only be true if I attempted to DISPLACE or REPLACE taqwa with the Great Commandments, but again, I'm not doing that. I'm just saying this: Let's take the Quran (and what it says about Isa, Torat, and Injeel) and M. Maududi's commentary seriously in this discourse to inform us on the relevance of the Great Commandments to Muslim faith. See the difference?

************************************************

Siam:
If you want to build a criteria---would it not be better to build it from a full, "authentic" background rather than an incomplete/flawed background?---so read the Quran, understand Islamic philosophy and law then find "common ground" with the teachings of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) that you already have in yr NT---that would work better for you---then you can come to us Muslims with a proper and more complete "criteria"......and with the help of the Guidance of the Quran---this criteria will be applicable/achievable as well.

It seems that you don't see that I'm using the Quran and what IT says about Isa, Torat and Injeel. The biblical Scriptures are not used "on their own"--basically trying to impose Christian belief and doctrine on Muslims--, but only as a RESPONSE to what was said about Isa's teaching in the Quran.

Let's break down how easy this is. Let's say that I'm an Christian seriously contemplating Islam, ok? Possibly to the point of conversion, ok? And let's say that I have 1) a Quran, 2) Maududi's "The Meaning of the Qur'an", 3) a Hebrew version of the Torah and 4) a Greek New Testament. [I know a little Hebrew and Greek, let's say. Actually, I do. :D] Now when I look at Quranic texts about Isa and what he taught...I keep getting told by the Quran that Jesus "confirmed the Torah" via his bringing of the Injeel. And I get told by the Quran that it behooves a "person of the Book" to understand what this was. So, then I get out Maududi's work in order to see how to look for the authentic Torat and Injeel in the Old and New Testaments respectively. It is regarded as one of the best commentaries on the Quran so I use it. (That's what commentaries are for, right). I go by Maududi's specifications and go to the Hebrew Torah and the Greek New Testament. I just so happen to notice that Deut 6:4-6 and Lev. 19:9-18 completely fit Maududi's criteria for "authentic" Torat. Then I look at Matthew 22:34-40...and see that this passage completely fits Maududi's criteria for authentic Injeel. Moreover, I notice that in the Injeel passage, Jesus/Isa specifically says that "all the Law and Prophets" are summarized in the reaffirmed OT passages. Now, I go BACK to the Quran to read how Allah himself is said to have given Jesus authority as Prophet to reaffirm the Torah and bring the Injeel. Now as a THOUGHTFUL, RATIONAL, INTELLIGENT person who is looking at all this information, how could I not come to the conclusion that even if I went ahead and CONVERTED to Islam, that the Great Commandments would still be relevant to my faith...even as a Muslim? How could I come to any other conclusion? Seriously.


************************************************

Siam:
By the way----Buddhist, Hindus...etc are also creations of the ONE God and the "children of Adam". A Just, Compassionate and Merciful God provides Guidance and Truth to all mankind. To be exclusive would be unjust.
Quran Surahy 16, verse 36
"for We certainly sent amongst every people a Messenger, (with the command) "Serve God and turn from evil": Of the people were some whom God Guided and some on whom error became inevitably (established). ...." (partial verse)
We all have a solid "common ground" we are all brothers and sisters in humanity----its a powerful concept........Universal enough to be inclusive yet can function within the narrower limits of "Muslim-Christian" dialogue as well.

With respect to the underlined points, I would say the same thing as a person who believes in the One God worshipped by Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and David. We would not differ there.

******************************************

Siam:
Though your 'major point" is narrow in scope and exclusive---it is nevertheless workable and perhaps can be seen as a starting point for Christians.

I will take this to mean that my "major point" is sound, credible and, most importantly, defensible. I haven't heard anything from anyone otherwise. The "narrow" and "exclusive" aspects only exist insofar as the major point deals specifically with the relationships between the Quran, Isa, the Torat, and Injeel. (which obviously wouldn't involved things like the Baghavad Gita or anything like that).

*******************************************

Great interaction, y'all! Much thanks!!! Kudos!

:awesome:

[Ramadhan]

You keep saying the same thing, brother naidamar. Namely that Abraham, Moses, Jesus, (and Muhammad) are not church-creed trinitarians. Which seems frankly obvious to me. But this KEEPS missing the point. You may believe that the "One God" spoken of in the Nicene creed is unintelligble, but others do not. And the fact is that the "One God" spoken of in the Nicene Creed is seen by Christians to be the ONE God to whom Abraham, Moses, and Jesus covenantally related. You can ask any knowledgeable Christian that, and they will agree.

Your motive is getting transparent by the day.


I keep saying the same thing because you keep blabbering the same garbage.

No matter how contrived your attempt is at trying to make it as if we worship the same God, no, muslims and christians do not worship the same God.
So, what is contrived is your logic. You only deceive yourself.

Now, christians worship jesus.

while muslims and jesus worship the same God.

Tell me, where in the OT that says Ibrahim and Musa (pbut) worshiped jesus and holy spirit.
Also show me where in the NT that says Jesus worshiped his own self and holy spirit as God?

If you have found your answer, come back here, if not, stop wasting our time with your garbage.

You need to have your brain checked if you believe that Jesus worship his own self.

Now, the more important question that you conveniently did not write is:

Do christians worship the God that prophet Muhammad SAW worship?

Do christians acknowledge Muhammad SAW as the last prophet of God?

Now, go back to your folks, ask them those questions, and if the answer is affirmative, then yes we have common ground.

if not, stop wasting our time.

[YieldedOne]

Naidamar:
Your motive is getting transparent by the day. I keep saying the same thing because you keep blabbering the same garbage.
and...
If you have found your answer, come back here, if not, stop wasting our time with your garbage.

You know what, brother naidamar? I really believe that I've been giving you respect in our entire discourse. I've not berated you or your beliefs. I would ask that you do the same for me, ok? I'm just asking this nicely...as a brother in humanity and a "person of the Book." I would like for you to treat me as I've treated you. If you can't do that, then you and I can just agree to disagree. Much love and respect, brother. :sunny:

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Naidamar:
Do christians worship the God that prophet Muhammad SAW worship? Do christians acknowledge Muhammad SAW as the last prophet of God?

Most Christians are not giong to acknowledge Muhammad as the final prophet of God. I think you well know that.

**************************************************

Naidamar:
Tell me, where in the OT that says Ibrahim and Musa (pbut) worshiped jesus and holy spirit.
Also show me where in the NT that says Jesus worshiped his own self and holy spirit as God?

I'll say this one more time and then leave it: Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were NOT trinitarian, that is they did not worship Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God. So, if that is the only way that you want to define things, then there you go.


Peace out, my brother. May Allah bless you in all you do!

YO

[YieldedOne]

And what is up with the "don't waste our time" thing? Is that just a standard statement of exasperation that everyone uses around here or what?? Need a new line or something. Ha!

:haha:

[Ramadhan]

Most Christians are not giong to acknowledge Muhammad as the final prophet of God. I think you well know that.

So we agree that there is no common ground between muslims and christians in terms of who we worship.


Case closed.

[Ramadhan]

And what is up with the "don't waste our time" thing? Is that just a standard statement of exasperation that everyone uses around here or what?? Need a new line or something. Ha!

Because it is the truth.

Maybe not the truth is not so clear for anyone who worship man as God.

christians worship God who took toilet break.

[siam]

"don't waste time"---can be an expression of frustration at the very limited perspectives of western non-muslims. They tend to think in "black and white" terms.

So let me say this another way----Your primary premise is flawed.....You believe that Muslims are interested in finding out what is "authentic" in the Torah presently held by the Jews and the NT presently held by the Christians. ----But you see, We Muslims already know what is authentic Torah, Injeel, Zabur, the scrolls of Prophet Abraham(pbuh)......etc----so, why should we expend effort to find out what we already know? (If you were asking help from Muslims to enhance YR knowledge of the full teachings of Jesus Christ(pbuh)----that would be a different matter altogether)

As to comparing the Quran with other wisdom teachings---including those of the Christians and Jews, this has already been done by many Muslim scholars (and from very early in Muslim history)---so...we Muslims already have a body of scholarly work in this area. ----and you can read tafsir (English)by Yusuf Ali, who has also included references to Torah, Talmud, Rabbinical writings, NT and apocrypha ...etc.

You said most Christians are not going to acknowedge that Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) is a Prophet of God, therefore they will not acknowledge that the Quran contains any authentic message from God (The same God they claim to worship)----therefore this whole excersie is from the perspective of convincing Christians that the Quran contains messages that the NT confirms are teachings of Prophet Jesus(pbuh).----As far as Muslims are concerned we have already known for 1400 years that the Quran contains the wisdom teachings of all the Prophets of God, including Jesus Christ(pbuh)---we not only know what they are ---but also how to implement them practically in our daily lives.

In conclusion---this whole excersise, while it may be a good first step for Christians---does not contribute anything new to Muslims.---However, inasmuch as Christians are interested in enhancing their own knowledge of the full teachings of Jesus Christ(pbuh) and how they can be implemented in today's world, We Muslims can be of help. This type of exploration---one that radically reforms today's society to be more in line with the principles of Justice tempered with compassion and mercy, Liberty balanced with responsibility, Equality and fraternity, Trusteeship of the government towards the governed and of humans towards all of God's creations......then yes, these are areas of co-operation that will contribute to both Muslim and Christian lives for the better. (However, irrespective of Christian co-operation---these are topics that are already being discussed and will inevitably have an impact on society---simply because of the demographics----for further info see radical reform by Tariq Ramadan)

Yet, we must all start from someplace --- baby steps are much better than standing still, so I want to encourage you and wish you well in your endeavors and hopefully what begins as a limited dialogue---can eventually, someday, expand to other areas................

[siam]

Here is some encouragment from the Talmud

"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief
Do justly now
Love mercy now
Walk humbly now
You are not obligated to complete the work
but neither are you free to abandon it"

Its really upto us to make this world a better place----and any small effort can cause a ripple that expands................



By the way, ---my fav translators of the Quran tend to be Pickthall, Yusuf Ali and M. Asad.(both M.Asad and Yusuf Ali come with tafsir.) Any translation includes the biases of the translator.

[YieldedOne]

Siam, I'd really like to thank you much for your engagement of my material and your gracious, attentive tone. You've been ever so helpful. May Allah bless all of your steps, bro! Mad love! :D

:rock:

**********************************
Siam:
By the way, ---my fav translators of the Quran tend to be Pickthall, Yusuf Ali and M. Asad.(both M.Asad and Yusuf Ali come with tafsir.) Any translation includes the biases of the translator.


I'm so glad you mentioned that...

Muhammad Asad's commentary on Surah 3:1-3...

3 Most of the commentators are of the opinion that ma bayna yadayhi - lit., "that which
is between its hands" - denotes here "the revelations which came before it", i.e., before
the Qur'an. This interpretation is not, however, entirely convincing. Although there is
not the least doubt that in this context the pronominal ma refers to earlier revelations,
and particularly the Bible (as is evident from the parallel use of the above expression in
other Qur'anic passages), the idiomatic phrase ma bayna yadayhi does not, in itself, mean
"that which came before it" - i.e., in time - but, rather (as pointed out by me in surah 2,
note 247), "that which lies open before it". Since, however, the pronoun "it" relates here
to the Qur'an, the metaphorical expression "between its hands" or "before it" cannot possibly
refer to "knowledge" (as it does in 2:255), but must obviously refer to an objective reality
with which the Qur'an is "confronted": that is, something that was coexistent in time with
the revelation of the Qur'an. Now this, taken together (a) with the fact - frequently
stressed in the Qur'an and since established by objective scholarship - that in the course
of the millennia the Bible has been subjected to considerable and often arbitrary alteration,
and (b) with the fact that many of the laws enunciated in the Qur'an differ from the laws
of the Bible, brings us forcibly to the conclusion that the "confirmation" of the latter
by the Qur'an can refer only to the basic truths still discernible in the Bible, and not to
its time-bound legislation or to its present text - in other words, a confirmation of
whatever was extant of its basic teachings at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an: and
it is this that the phrase ma bayna yadayhi expresses in this context as well as in 5:46
and 48 or in 61:6 (where it refers to Jesus' confirming the truth of "whatever there still
remained [i.e., in his lifetime] of the Torah").

4 It is to be borne in mind that the Gospel frequently mentioned in the Qur'an is not
identical with what is known today as the Four Gospels, but refers to an original, since
lost, revelation bestowed upon Jesus and known to his contemporaries under its Greek name
of Evangelion ("Good Tiding"), on which the Arabicized form Injil is based. It was probably
the source from which the Synoptic Gospels derived much of their material and some of
the teachings attributed to Jesus. The fact of its having been lost and forgotten is
alluded to in the Qur'an in 5:14. - Regarding my rendering of al-furqan as "the standard
by which to discern the true from the false", see also note 38 on the identical phrase
occurring in 2:53.

Let me pull out some points here...

1) In the commentary on verse 3, M. Asad specifically states that the "basic truths still discernible in the Bible" or "whatever was extant of its basic teachings at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an" are what is being talked about. This would DEFINITELY be the Shema and the "Love Your Neighbor" passages. Again, you can SKIP the translated BIBLE and go back to the Hebrew text itself. And I guarantee you that the Hebrew text was extant whenver the Quran was created (as was the Greek New Testament)!

2) M. Asad specifically states that the Gospel of Jesus was "probably the source from which the Synoptic Gospels derived much of their material and some of the teachings attributed to Jesus." If we look carefully we see that the idea of the Two Great Commandments of Jesus are in 2 of the 4 Gospels. So, if we were being intellectually honest, we'd have to say that there is a good chance that the Two Great Commandments are part of the "source" from whence these Gospel fragments came.

NOW...when you put Maududi's commentary TOGETHER WITH M. Asad's commentary...there really seems to be little doubt at this point. I don't see how any intelligent, informed, reasonable Muslim can just ignore the authority of both Maududi and Asad on these issues.

Siam, do you have any reason that both of these commentaries should be ignored on this issue? I get the impression that you are a very well read, thoughtful, and conscientious practictioner of faith. Is this making sense, brother?


**********************************

Siam:
You said most Christians are not going to acknowedge that Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) is a Prophet of God, therefore they will not acknowledge that the Quran contains any authentic message from God (The same God they claim to worship)----therefore this whole excersie is from the perspective of convincing Christians that the Quran contains messages that the NT confirms are teachings of Prophet Jesus(pbuh).----As far as Muslims are concerned we have already known for 1400 years that the Quran contains the wisdom teachings of all the Prophets of God, including Jesus Christ(pbuh)---we not only know what they are ---but also how to implement them practically in our daily lives.


I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there on the bolded part, my brother. The issue is not more about convincing Christians of the validity of the Quran or anything like that. Again, look at my thought project. Even if I--myself--were to seriously think about becoming a Muslim (I think many Muslims would be happy about the prospect of a Christian converting to Islam)...with what I now know, I would still be advocating what I am. Again, we aren't dealing with specifically Christian thought at all here. It's based upon the following things: 1) the Quran 2) Commentaries (Maududi, Asad, etc) 3) Hebrew Torah, and 4) Greek New Testament. No "Bibles", bible translations, or Christian commentaries involved!

Seriously, Siam. If you were to give me advice on my possible conversion, and I was talking to you about these things that I've looked up about the relevance of Isa's Great Commandments, what would you tell me, me being a Christian newly converting to Islam? Would you tell me to ignore Maududi's and Asad's perspectives on the Torat and Injeel...and solely focus on the Quran? Woudl you tell to ignore Maududi's and Asad's take in Surah 3:1-3...but take the other stuff? If you would say that, then why would Maududi and Asad go through the trouble of mentioning those things in their commentaries...for Muslims?

Again, this is not mainly about how CHRISTIANS feel about things. It's an assertion that per Quran and commentaries on it, Isa's Great Commandments (found in the Torat and Injeel) are relevant to "true" Muslim faith.


*********************************************


Siam:
Here is some encouragment from the Talmud
"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief
Do justly now
Love mercy now
Walk humbly now
You are not obligated to complete the work
but neither are you free to abandon it"
Its really upto us to make this world a better place----and any small effort can cause a ripple that expands................

That's one of my favorite Scriptures...

He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?
Micah 6:8

[YieldedOne]

One more for good measure...

Commentary by Zohurul Hoque and Husain Nuri...

3:3-4 The revelation of the Qur’ān was not complete at the time of revelation of this verse, yet Allāh chose to refer to the Qur’ān as kitāb or Book to imply in course of time it would be completed and compiled into a book. It was revealed with ‘truth’, a term that connects not only to its content, but also to its source, process of revelation, coherence and purpose.

As a rare of example of the Qur’ān’s worldview, it verifies the truth in earlier scriptures, particularly in the Tawrāt and the Injīl, vestiges of which are still available in the form of the Torah and the Bible. Although ‘Isā came to confirm Mūsā’s book Tawrāt (3:50; 5:46; 61:6), it must be remembered that the Old Testament is not necessarily the Torah used by the Jews. The Jewish interpretation of Torah has two sections, the Torah Shebiksav (the written Torah) and Torah Sheb’al Peh (the Oral Torah, that eventually was compiled into what is called Talmud). The written Torah has 24 books, only 5 of those books were revealed to Moses, various saints wrote the rest. (YO's Note: Both Deuteronomy and Leviticus are WITHIN those 5 books!!!!)

Similarly, popularly understood four Gospels in the New Testament are not the same Injīl (Evangel or Gospel) revealed by Allāh to ‘Isā. The original Injīl was invariably in Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus. The precursor of the present day Bible was translated from the original Aramaic into Greek and later translated into English. The current Gospels contain remnants of original Injīl, but for all practical purpose, the original Injīl has long been lost. The scope of this commentary would not permit us to go into the details of early Christianity and compilation of the Bible. It must be understood that when the Qur’ān testifies the Tawrāt or the Injīl were guidance for mankind it is not referring to the present versions.

Ok. That's THREE Muslim commentaries...with NO Bible or Christian commentaries being used.

I rest my case.

[YieldedOne]

So Siam, I really don't think my premise is flawwed at all. Actually, I think it's VERY, VERY defensible!

Major Point:
Qur'anically speaking, a person cannot be a "true, faithful Muslim" (ala Hammudat Abd Al-Ati's exact words) without heeding Jesus/Isa's Torat-Injeel teaching about "loving the neighbor as oneself".


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Whole thread at a glance

[siam]

Thankyou for Micah 6:8.

If we were to combine Micah 6:8 with the sentiments in "love yr neighbor"---perhaps this is what we would get-----
Surah 41, verse 34-36
34. Nor can Goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (evil) with what is better. Then between whom was hatred, become as it were, friends and intimates.
35. And no one will be granted such goodness except those who excercise patience and self restraint----none but persons of greates good fortune
36. And if at any time an incitement to discord is made to you by satan, seek refuge in God. He is the one who hears and knows all things.

I have been unable to convince you that I find your perspective (---as phrased in yr "major point")limiting. You have been unable to clarify what the purpose(or the point) is ^o)---and we will simply be going in circles if we continue.

As to your other comment-----
"Seriously, Siam. If you were to give me advice on my possible conversion, and I was talking to you about these things that I've looked up about the relevance of Isa's Great Commandments, what would you tell me, me being a Christian newly converting to Islam?"
----I would ask you to seriously contemplate the phrasing of the shahada---(the first part of which expresses the tawheed)
it goes--"there is no god but God and Muhammed is the messenger of God." Look at the phrasing closely--what is the purpose of the negation "there is no god but..."? It means that one must discard all false ideas/concepts of god before we can arrive at Truth. In order to be a seeker of Truth---we must begin with doubt. Al Gazzali(1058-1111) says "Doubt is to find Truth---Those who do not have doubt cannot think and those who cannot think cannot find Truth". The negation is completed with the phrase---"But God"-what does this mean?---the answer is in the 2nd part of the shahada---in the Guidance of the messenger of God--Prophet Muhammed(pbuh)

"Would you tell me to ignore Maududi's and Asad's perspectives on the Torat and Injeel...and solely focus on the Quran?"
----The Quran is understood in context (hadith/sunnah) therefore I cannot ask you to focus "solely" on the Quran, Yet, I would strongly reccommend you initially focus solely on Islamic teachings. Perhaps once you have attained to faith (Iman) I would encourage you to explore further. (However, most converts have already looked at all other religions---often, Islam is the last religion they look at.....I personally prefer such a path for a convert, for then, one would have arrived at Islam with conviction.......)

"Woudl you tell to ignore Maududi's and Asad's take in Surah 3:1-3...but take the other stuff? "
----The Quran itself says it must be understood as a whole---it cannot be broken into peices. (Which is one reason I find your approach limiting)

"then why would Maududi and Asad go through the trouble of mentioning those things in their commentaries...for Muslims?"
---To put in context what asad means----The Quran corrects and completes all previous revelations. Therefore, Muslims can find wisdom in all previous revelations and thus respect them---but the full (correct and complete) message/revelation of God is the Quran (in arabic). The message of the Quran does not need any additions to it---that is---we Muslims do not need to figure out what the Torah says or what the NT says----because the corrected and completed message/Guidance of all previous prophets is already contained in the Quran. This does not negate the wisdom found in previous revelations nor does it diminish the respect we Muslims hold for the previous revelations. It means the Quran makes "whole" the revelations that had previously been lost or corrupted.
---In other words, Muslims follow the message of Prophet Jesus(pbuh) more correctly and completely than Christians can ever hope to follow.

"I rest my case"----I hope you do.:D

[YieldedOne]

Yeah. I think I will rest my case. Heh. Like you said, it doesn't look like we are going to progress much farther on this at all. It simply seems that the Torah and Injeel are relativized unto the Quran such that it's functionally not a consideration, because it's thought that all one needs is in the Quran. Not even Quranic commentaries by noted authorities can match that sensibility, it seems.

Thanks, Siam. This whole interaction has been a jump into the "pool" of interfaith dialogue with Muslims...and it's definitely been an informative one. Allah's blessings be upon you and everyone else who's been so great!

Over and out,
YO.

[siam]

YO---yes, the Torah and NT, as presently held by the Jews and Chrsitians are not a consideration in advancing/enhancing our(Muslim) understanding of God's message.(theologically) This is because the Quran ITSELF says that God has now completed the religion (The same religion that was sent since the time of Prophet Adam(pbuh)). This is not something Muslims have made up from thin air---nor are any of the Muslim scholars you mentioned unaware of this fundamental point. (The message of the authentic /original Torah and Injeel are IN the Quran)
However, Understanding the Torah and Injeel presently held by the Jews and Christians is important to Muslims (non-theologically) because the Quran also advises Muslims to seek knowledge. All knowledge is from God, even scientific, medical, philosophical etc. Thus, interfaith dialogue that uses the Torah and/or Injeel as "common ground" will be workable----as long as you do not expect Muslims to take the Torah and Injeel presently held by the Jews and Christians as "additions" to the Quran---even partially.

I know that this is a lot of nuance and may be difficult to understand. ---especially since I havn't been able to express it very well....The difference may be subtle but it is important. Therefore, the best use of what you are trying to do (which I still don't really get) may be to use the Quran and NT and the commonalities found there to build a "common language" of dialogue. This should not require of Muslims (or Christians) any "agreements" that infringe on our beliefs.