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YusufNoor
03-03-2011, 03:06 PM
:sl:

here are some enlightening books regarding various aspects of Christianity:

Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 year

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Wars-Pat.../dp/0061768944

review from site:

*Starred Review* The fifth-century Christian church faced a doctrinal issue, now largely forgotten, that precipitated intramural Christian savagery unparalleled until the 11-centuries-later Thirty Years’ War. The bone of contention was the nature of Jesus Christ. That he wasn’t a mere man was indisputable. But was he a human-divine cross-breed, so to speak, or was he purely divine and his human body an illusion? Neither was accepted, but the conclusion of the council of Chalcedon in 451 that he was fully divine and fully human—that is, said dissidents, of two natures—incensed those who held he was of one nature, entirely divine. The fight broke out well before Chalcedon, entailing the death-from-assault of the patriarch of Constantinople during the 449 council of Ephesus, thereafter disowned as the “Gangster Synod.” Chalcedon eventually triumphed, but not until well after 250 years of intermittent violence in which monks behaved like the Waffen SS. Jenkins condenses centuries of church and imperial strife with admirable clarity despite the continuous blizzard of historical names and ecclesiastical terms the narrative entails. He suggests that this era, not the later Dark and Middle Ages, is the most violent (un-Christian?) in Christian history and that it may have lessons for the present and future conflict between Christians and Muslims over the nature of God. --Ray Olson
along similar lines:

A.D. 381: Heretics, Pagans, and the Dawn of the Monotheistic State

http://www.amazon.com/D-381-Heretics...ref=pd_sim_b_2

product description:

A provoking and timely examination of one of the most important times in Church history.

In AD 381, Theodosius, emperor of the eastern Roman empire, issued a decree in which all his subjects were required to subscribe to a belief in the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This edict defined Christian orthodoxy and brought to an end a lively and wide-ranging debate about the nature of God; all other interpretations were now declared heretical. It was the first time in a thousand years of Greco-Roman civilization free thought was unambiguously suppressed. Yet surprisingly, the popular histories claim that the Christian Church reached a consensus on the Trinity at the Council of Constantinople in AD 381. Why has Theodosius's revolution been airbrushed from the historical record?

In this groundbreaking new book, acclaimed historian Charles Freeman shows that the council was in fact a sham, only taking place after Theodosius's decree had become law. The Church was acquiescing in the overwhelming power of the emperor. Freeman argues that Theodosius's edict and the subsequent suppression of paganism not only brought an end to the diversity of religious and philosophical beliefs throughout the empire, but created numerous theological problems for the Church, which have remained unsolved. The year AD 381, as Freeman puts it, was "a turning point which time forgot."
and Professor Bart D Ehrman has new release scheduled soon:

Forged: Writing in the Name of God--Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are

http://www.amazon.com/Forged-Writing...tt_at_ep_dpt_7

product description:

It is often said, even by critical scholars who should know better, that “writing in the name of another” was widely accepted in antiquity. But New York Times bestselling author Bart D. Ehrman dares to call it what it was: literary forgery, a practice that was as scandalous then as it is today. In Forged, Ehrman’s fresh and original research takes readers back to the ancient world, where forgeries were used as weapons by unknown authors to fend off attacks to their faith and establish their church. So, if many of the books in the Bible were not in fact written by Jesus’s inner circle—but by writers living decades later, with differing agendas in rival communities—what does that do to the authority of Scripture?

Ehrman investigates ancient sources to:

* Reveal which New Testament books were outright forgeries.

* Explain how widely forgery was practiced by early Christian writers—and how strongly it was condemned in the ancient world as fraudulent and illicit.

* Expose the deception in the history of the Christian religion.

Ehrman’s fascinating story of fraud and deceit is essential reading for anyone interested in the truth about the Bible and the dubious origins of Christianity’s sacred texts.
seek knowledge! [and don't let "orthodox" Christians fool you with their "version" of how Christianity came to exist as it does today. in 16th Century Germany, more than 6,000,000 people were killed during the Reformation. OK, that is a different course! and yet somehow Muslims are the barbarians...]

:wa:
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YusufNoor
03-04-2011, 02:10 PM
:sl:

in 16th Century Germany, more than 6,000,000 people were killed during the Reformation. OK, that is a different course!
and by course, i meant this one,:

History of Christianity in the Reformation Era
Taught By Professor Brad S. Gregory, Ph.D., Princeton University,
University of Notre Dame

http://www.teach12.com/tgc/courses/c...l.aspx?cid=690

a bit steep at a sale price of $99, this was an awesome run through a tumultuous period in Europe. millions and millions died, in the name of the Christan God. you know, because he is so loving! ^o)

:wa:
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Eric H
03-04-2011, 04:20 PM
Greetings and peace be with you YusufNoor;

millions died, in the name of the Christan God. you know, because he is so loving
Name one person who is as just as God, how can we judge God by what his followers do?

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric
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YusufNoor
03-04-2011, 06:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you YusufNoor;

Name one person who is as just as God, how can we judge God by what his followers do?

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric
:sl:

NOT judging Allah, just the "make believe triune creation doohickey thingy of those who call themselves Christian". Hitler kills millions and it's Holocaust; Christians do the same, hundreds of years earlier and YOU seem to object to talking about it. Christians did this claiming "God" as the authority to do it! yer Pope SPEAKS for "God!" +o(

you are free to pretend all that you wish, but the "God" of Christianity is NOT a god of peace. the TRUE history of Christianity, of YOUR Christianity, is one or murder, rape, pillaging and forced conversions.

the Christian God of Hiroshi [and possibly Bob] is closer to the truth.

:wa:
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gmcbroom
03-04-2011, 08:37 PM
I'm curious Yusuf,
Jesus told those that follow him (Christians) not to judge lest ye be judged. Are muslims held to the same standard? I can't say I agree with genocides and they do happen often in the name of religion or authority. But, in the end it usually has more to do with control over others and/or personal power.

You do indeed make a good point about what the emperor did. Making his decree made things easier for the Church to exist and even to thrive without being molested by the pagans of the day. Yet, I'm not so sure its quite as cut and dry as the author would have us believe. The emperor was even excommunicated in 390 AD for having 7,000 people massacred in Thessalonica over the death of his military governor there.

However as for the God of Peace reference you made. Luke 12:51

Do you think that I have come to establish peace on earth? No. I tell you, but rather division.

That doesn't really justify blood shed; rather it implies that even in families there will be disagreements about him.

Now to bolster the disagreement over the bloodshed idea i present Hebrews 4:13

No creature is concealed from him, but everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must render an account.

That doesn't seem to condone bloodshed does it?

peace be with you
gmcbroom
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YusufNoor
03-04-2011, 09:33 PM
:sl:

Christians are an odd lot. Hitler kills 6,000,000 people and Palestinians lose their land,

Christians kill 6,000,000 and the response?

Who are you to judge? ;D

you can present Hebrews to whomever you like, Christians have been killing and forcing the conversions of millions and millions of people for millennia!

about time the cover-up is set aside!

:wa:
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Fivesolas
03-04-2011, 11:24 PM
Can you explain to me who were the Christian during the Reformation that killed 6 million people? Are you referring to the papacy?
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Aprender
03-04-2011, 11:37 PM
I don't disagree with the historical injustice that you're talking about Yusuf. It is bad, and there are a lot of Christians in the West who use the name of God for evil means but I don't think applying it to Christians as a whole is going to get us anywhere toward peace, brother.

Remember, it's the exact same thing that people in the West do to Islam and Muslims because of 9/11 and it truly brings tears to my eyes.
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3rddec
03-04-2011, 11:59 PM
If anyone should argue about the nature of God to the degree of killing or injuring another they are not of Gods people for only a fool would think they could understand the Unknowable.

Bohr had a great reply to Einstein when they were discussing Chaos theory and Einstein was finding it difficult to believe in a universe with no order.

Einstein " God does not play dice"
Bohr " Stop telling God what to do "

He was telling Einstein that God would create the Universe the way he wanted to and could do what he wanted.

I suggest like wise we should stop putting limits on what God is based on our completely inadaquet ability to even remotely understand what God is or is capable of.

We cannot concieve of One God consisting of three separate individuals who can act individually but be in perfect union and still one but that doesn't mean that it is not possible.

We can say we don't believe it is this way but thats not the same as saying it is not possible.


Its funny how many people of faith Quickly forget the message of Love in their faith while they argue about The Unknowable.

love and respect
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gmcbroom
03-05-2011, 12:19 AM
I read this somewhere and felt it answers the challenge nicely. It is from someone who responded to a Yahoo answers question similar to this. I believe the posters name is iamcatholic 2.




If you notice the others answering this questions with number like millions cannot reference any reputable sources.

One example is the Inquisition:

Modern historians have long known that the popular view of the Inquisition is a myth. The Inquisition was actually an attempt by the Catholic Church to stop unjust executions.

Heresy was a capital offense against the state. Rulers of the state, whose authority was believed to come from God, had no patience for heretics. Neither did common people, who saw heretics as dangerous outsiders who would bring down divine wrath.

When someone was accused of heresy in the early Middle Ages, they were brought to the local lord for judgment, just as if they had stolen a pig. It was not easy to discern whether the accused was really a heretic. The lord needed some basic theological training, very few did. The sad result is that uncounted thousands across Europe were executed by secular authorities without fair trials or a competent judge of the crime.

The Catholic Church's response to this problem was the Inquisition, an attempt to provide fair trials for accused heretics using laws of evidence and presided over by knowledgeable judges.

From the perspective of secular authorities, heretics were traitors to God and the king and therefore deserved death. From the perspective of the Church, however, heretics were lost sheep who had strayed from the flock. As shepherds, the pope and bishops had a duty to bring them back into the fold, just as the Good Shepherd had commanded them. So, while medieval secular leaders were trying to safeguard their kingdoms, the Church was trying to save souls. The Inquisition provided a means for heretics to escape death and return to the community.

Most people tried for heresy by the Inquisition were either acquitted or had their sentences suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ. The underlying assumption of the Inquisition was that, like lost sheep, heretics had simply strayed.

If, however, an inquisitor determined that a particular sheep had purposely left the flock, there was nothing more that could be done. Unrepentant or obstinate heretics were excommunicated and given over to secular authorities. Despite popular myth, the Inquisition did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense, not the Church. The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule.

Where did this myth come from? After 1530, the Inquisition began to turn its attention to the new heresy of Lutheranism. It was the Protestant Reformation and the rivalries it spawned that would give birth to the myth. Innumerable books and pamphlets poured from the printing presses of Protestant countries at war with Spain accusing the Spanish Inquisition of inhuman depravity and horrible atrocities in the New World.

For more information, see:
The Real Inquisition, By Thomas F. Madden, National Review (2004) http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/ma…
Inquisition by Edward Peters (1988)
The Spanish Inquisition by Henry Kamen (1997)
The Spanish Inquisition: Fact Versus Fiction, By Marvin R. O'Connell (1996): http://www.catholiceducation.org/article…

With love in Christ.
Reply

جوري
03-05-2011, 01:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Christians kill 6,000,000 and the response?

just 6 mil?

WONDERFUL EVENTS THAT TESTIFY TO GOD'S DIVINE GLORY"Listed are only events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)
Ancient Pagans


  • As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
  • Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
  • Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
  • Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
  • Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
  • Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
    According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
  • In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
  • In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
  • The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
    [DO19-25]

Mission


  • Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
  • Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
  • Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
  • 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
  • 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
    Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

Crusades (1095-1291)


  • First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
  • Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
  • 9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
  • Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
  • after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
    Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
  • Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
  • Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
    (In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")
  • The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
  • Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
  • Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
  • Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
  • Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224] Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.

Heretics


  • Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
  • Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
  • Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
    The Albigensians (cathars = Christians allegedly that have all rarely sucked) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
    Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Bezirs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
  • Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
  • subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
  • After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
  • Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
  • Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
  • Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
  • John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
  • University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
  • Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.

Witches


  • from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
  • in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]
  • incomplete list of documented cases:
    The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times

Religious Wars


  • 15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
  • 1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
  • 1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain. [DO31]
  • 1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
  • 17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
  • 17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
  • 17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]

Jews


  • Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
  • In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
  • 17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
  • The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
  • First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
  • Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
  • Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]
  • Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
  • 1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
  • 1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
  • 1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
  • 1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
  • 1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
  • 1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
  • 1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
  • 1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
  • 1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]

(I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.
Native Peoples


  • Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
  • Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
    While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
  • On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:

I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]
  • Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
  • In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
  • On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
  • The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.
  • As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
  • The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
  • What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
    "The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
    Or, on another occasion:
    "The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
  • The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
  • "And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
  • Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
  • "When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead." [SH95]

Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.

  • Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
  • In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
    "Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
  • On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War". The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
  • When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
    Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
    The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
  • So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
  • Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
    "Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
  • Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
  • Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by spanish methods of the time)
    In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
  • The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
  • Other tribes were to follow the same path.
  • Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
    "Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
  • Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
  • In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
  • In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
  • To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
  • All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
  • A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
  • In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.

More Glorious events in US history


  • Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]
  • Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
    From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]
    More gory details.
  • By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'." [SH244]

20th Century Church Atrocities


  • Catholic extermination camps
    Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!

    In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]
  • Catholic terror in Vietnam
    In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]

    Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.

    The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:

    • "Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."

Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].

To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life....
  • Rwanda Massacres
    In 1994 in the small african country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.

For quite some time I heard only rumours about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.

According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]
As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never come to an end....
References:

[DA] K.Deschner, Abermals krhte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962. [DO] K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987. [EC] P.W.Edbury, Crusade and Settlement, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985. [EJ] S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977. [LI] H.C.Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York 1961. [MM] M.Margolis, A.Marx, A History of the Jewish People. [MV] A.Manhattan, The Vatican's Holocaust, Springfield 1986.
See also V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY, 1992. [NC] J.T.Noonan, Contraception: A History of its Treatment by the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, Cambridge/Mass., 1992. [S2] Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00. [SH] D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992. [SP] German news magazine Der Spiegel, no.49, 12/2/1996. [TA] A True Account of the Most Considerable Occurrences that have Hapned in the Warre Between the English and the Indians in New England, London 1676. [TG] F.Turner, Beyond Geography, New York 1980. [WW] H.Wollschlger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zrich 1973.
(This is in german and what is worse, it is out of print. But it is the best I ever read about crusades and includes a full list of original medieval Christian chroniclers' writings). [WV] Estimates on the number of executed witches:

  • N.Cohn, Europe's Inner Demons: An Enquiry Inspired by the Great Witch Hunt, Frogmore 1976, 253.
  • R.H.Robbins, The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, New York 1959, 180.
  • J.B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.
  • H.Zwetsloot, Friedrich Spee und die Hexenprozesse, Trier 1954, 56


Reply

Aprender
03-05-2011, 01:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 3rddec
If anyone should argue about the nature of God to the degree of killing or injuring another they are not of Gods people for only a fool would think they could understand the Unknowable.

Bohr had a great reply to Einstein when they were discussing Chaos theory and Einstein was finding it difficult to believe in a universe with no order.

Einstein " God does not play dice"
Bohr " Stop telling God what to do "

He was telling Einstein that God would create the Universe the way he wanted to and could do what he wanted.

I suggest like wise we should stop putting limits on what God is based on our completely inadaquet ability to even remotely understand what God is or is capable of.

We cannot concieve of One God consisting of three separate individuals who can act individually but be in perfect union and still one but that doesn't mean that it is not possible.

We can say we don't believe it is this way but thats not the same as saying it is not possible.


Its funny how many people of faith Quickly forget the message of Love in their faith while they argue about The Unknowable.

love and respect
Yes, but that's not the topic of the post. Not that we can prove the impossibility or possibility of the trinity. Which, honestly, I believe is nonsense but that's just my respectful opinion. =/

I don't think we're having an argument either. Yusuf is simply calling upon Christians to look at the history of our religion and see what atrocities it has been used to justify...I don't see the point in trying to defend it when the historical facts are right there.

Maybe 6 million is a little exaggerated but the point is that people still lost their lives and people in our religion do try to act like Christianity has always been this golden beacon of love and gleaming holiness when it has in fact not always been that way.

People do wicked things, but remember that it's the people, not the religion itself. The religion is just a tool to justify those wrong actions.
Reply

جوري
03-05-2011, 01:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
People do wicked things, but remember that it's the people, not the religion itself. The religion is just a tool to justify those wrong actions.

Aprender I just adore you.. been loving your posts since day one.. I remember the first post of yours was a remark about stoning .... was really well thought that I had to use it as an example in a conversation with a friend..
blessings to you..
Reply

YusufNoor
03-05-2011, 03:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

just 6 mil?
:sl:

well, i was JUST referring to the 16th Century in Germany during the Reformation in THAT post.

Fivesolas

Re: Jesus Wars
Can you explain to me who were the Christian during the Reformation that killed 6 million people? Are you referring to the papacy?
Protestants, Catholics, Svinglis, etc...

Aprender

Re: Jesus Wars
I don't disagree with the historical injustice that you're talking about Yusuf. It is bad, and there are a lot of Christians in the West who use the name of God for evil means but I don't think applying it to Christians as a whole is going to get us anywhere toward peace, brother
in the case of the Reformation, in applied to Christians AS A WHOLE, except some Sabbatarians who refused to kill anyone - AGAIN similar to Hiroshi's version of Christianity.

Yes, but that's not the topic of the post. Not that we can prove the impossibility or possibility of the trinity. Which, honestly, I believe is nonsense but that's just my respectful opinion. =/

I don't think we're having an argument either. Yusuf is simply calling upon Christians to look at the history of our religion and see what atrocities it has been used to justify...I don't see the point in trying to defend it when the historical facts are right there.

not just Christians, Muslims and others as well.

Maybe 6 million is a little exaggerated but the point is that people still lost their lives and people in our religion do try to act like Christianity has always been this golden beacon of love and gleaming holiness when it has in fact not always been that way.

People do wicked things, but remember that it's the people, not the religion itself. The religion is just a tool to justify those wrong actions.
i'll be honest and admit i was ASTOUNDED at the number. overall, though the course:

History of Christianity in the Reformation Era
Taught By Professor Brad S. Gregory, Ph.D., Princeton University,
University of Notre Dame
was awesome and i recommend it for folks interested in the period.

the common link about the 2 different eras was that it WAS Church and Church Policy that was the underlying reason for the events. that is different than an IRA person doing something stupid or a misguided Muslim , although i NO WAY concede 9/11 was Muslims.

6,000,000 million, wow....

many things have been whitewashed from History, THAT is one. worthy of discussion, i believe...



:wa:
Reply

Trumble
03-05-2011, 03:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
you are free to pretend all that you wish, but the "God" of Christianity is NOT a god of peace. the TRUE history of Christianity, of YOUR Christianity, is one or murder, rape, pillaging and forced conversions.
Erm, unless you are suggesting there are two Gods (which does seem rather unlikely) the 'Christian God' must by definition be the same as the Islamic God. If, as I suspect, you are talking about different understandings of the same God that might well be true.. although obviously in this case the relevant differences were between different groups of Christians, not Christians and muslims. In any event it was the one God 'of peace', however people happened to understand Him, who let this happen, as He did the Holocaust... the blatant contradiction being one excellent reason for concluding no such entity exists .

Christianity has always been this golden beacon of love and gleaming holiness when it has in fact not always been that way
That really is a total strawman. Nothing has been 'whitewashed' regarding the Reformation and it's consequences, the Crusades, so-called 'missionaries' stomping through America slaughtering everyone who wouldn't convert (and many who would), etc. etc, at least in my (English) education. And of course, the history of Islam (or at least things done by muslims) is hardly squeaky clean either. But how relevant is all this to 2011?
Reply

3rddec
03-05-2011, 03:45 PM
with respect ; i believe there is a much deeper motive to raising this issue ; i do not believe his point is that people justify evil using religion as a tool but rather he is saying judge christianity by what was done in its name rather than the true teaching of christianity. Just as many Muslims would say do not judge Islam by what some misguided individuals and societies do in its name but its teachings. Yes i used the Trinity as a vessel to expoung my thoughts about how there will always things to get divided about but i hoped my key message was that we should rather focus on the true message that our faith is built on and that is " Love of God and love of our neighbour ". The only entity that could benifit from a constant barrage of accusations is the chief accuser himself satan.
Reply

YusufNoor
03-05-2011, 04:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 3rddec
with respect ; i believe there is a much deeper motive to raising this issue ; i do not believe his point is that people justify evil using religion as a tool but rather he is saying judge christianity by what was done in its name rather than the true teaching of christianity. Just as many Muslims would say do not judge Islam by what some misguided individuals and societies do in its name but its teachings. Yes i used the Trinity as a vessel to expoung my thoughts about how there will always things to get divided about but i hoped my key message was that we should rather focus on the true message that our faith is built on and that is " Love of God and love of our neighbour ". The only entity that could benifit from a constant barrage of accusations is the chief accuser himself satan.
IF, as you say, "Love of God and love of our neighbour" IS the message of your faith, then how do you kill 6,000,000 people over some details that, by your definition, are less consequential?

the Chief message appears to be "you MUST believe what i believe." you may try to reconcile that THAT message is about love, but when the spreading of that message is based upon centuries of murder and rape of millions and millions of people, then the whole "love" thing just isn't logical.

Erm, unless you are suggesting there are two Gods (which does seem rather unlikely) the 'Christian God' must by definition be the same as the Islamic God. If, as I suspect, you are talking about different understandings of the same God that might well be true.. although obviously in this case the relevant differences were between different groups of Christians, not Christians and muslims. In any event it was the one God 'of peace', however people happened to understand Him, who let this happen, as He did the Holocaust... the blatant contradiction being one excellent reason for concluding no such entity exists .
i see it as obvious that most of Christianity MUST be based upon worshiping shaytan. THEY have elevated him to a position of god. ERGO, we do NOT worship the same god.

The only entity that could benifit from a constant barrage of accusations is the chief accuser himself satan
luckily, we are dealing with facts and not accusations! HOWEVER, in doing so, YOU accuse us of "questioning your REALITY" as opposed to your "DELUSION!"

so, who is accusing who?
Reply

YieldedOne
03-05-2011, 04:46 PM
Let's just be honest: Christianity has been dreadfully INCONSISTENT with the actual message of Jesus and caused untold, horrible suffering upon millions of people over the years because of it. Point blank. Period. Mere humility and historical exploration can show that.

But that's just it. Christianity, by and large, has been INCONSISTENT with the Message and the Messenger. But that's not the Messenger's fault or the Message. And the message of Jesus IS his re-affirmation of the "Great Commandments" in the Torah of Moses: Love of God and Love of Neighbor. Many in Muslim intelligensia KNOW this to be true. (See "A Common Word Between Us and You" ) Have Christians missed the point a lot? Heck, yeah. But again, that's INCONSISTENCY, not dysfunction of the Teaching itself.
Reply

YieldedOne
03-05-2011, 04:53 PM
Argue not with the People of the Book except in the fairest manner, unless it be those of them that are utterly unjust. Say to them: “We believe in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to you. One is our God and your God; and we are those who submit ourselves to Him.”

Surah 29:46

As there are NOT two Gods, all I can assume this passage means is that Muslims and Christians refer to the same God, the ONE God of Abraham, Adam, Moses, and Jesus. So...as I Christian, am I a "person of the Book", brother YusufNoor? Do we have the same God who sent Jesus as Messenger and Prophet?

Hmmm...
Reply

3rddec
03-05-2011, 05:05 PM
wiyh respect I believe my point about the true nature of the question has been proven by previous responses and i will continue to resist the temptation to Join the accuser no matter how the trap is set. I will continue to spread the message of "Love God and Love your neighbour" and hope in time enough people will avoid being drawn into the clutches of the accuser and ultimately the war mongers. Im sure if I was to visit Christians sites the war mongers and accusers there could list of an encyclopedia of crimes committed in Islams name both past and present. One day im sure all the war mongers will be able to get together and debate the issue, im guessing the place will be hot. I will not post anything further in this thread. It says in the bible " do not cast pearls to swine "

Love God and Love your neighbour

love and respect
Reply

Aprender
03-05-2011, 05:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by
It says in the bible " do not cast pearls to swine "
Little harsh. But OK.

I don't know if we're reading the same thing but I don't think Yusuf is accusing us personally of anything. There's no need for us to sugar coat this...I feel like you're making this thread to be potentially hostile when it really isn't. There is no trap. If you chose to respond to Yusuf's post in a negative way then that's something you'll have to work on, brother.

format_quote Originally Posted by
i see it as obvious that most of Christianity MUST be based upon worshiping shaytan. THEY have elevated him to a position of god. ERGO, we do NOT worship the same god.
I think that's debatable but I can see your point. People follow pastors in churches, look for pastors to tell them what to believe, engage in strange pagan-like rituals in some sects, have "prophets", people who see into the future in the different sects etc... And I like that you said "most of" instead labeling the entire Christian faith. It would appear that in some places Capitalism is god. Lots of famous pastors in business suits running churches like a company. That's one thing that always bothered me...churches having logos, etc. It's not a company...

format_quote Originally Posted by
luckily, we are dealing with facts and not accusations! HOWEVER, in doing so, YOU accuse us of "questioning your REALITY" as opposed to your "DELUSION!" so, who is accusing who?
Good point. While I believe that is important love your neighbor as my religion teaches, it is one thing to say that and another to actually do that. When you see on television Westboro Baptist Church, and these famous evangelical pastors spreading lies and misinformation about Islam, coming out as gay, soldiers funerals being protested as protected under the First Amendment, Christians on university campuses telling students they're going to burn in hell for not believing in the message of Christianity, it's evident that lots of people don't practice what is preached in Christianity...and I agree with Yusuf that it is a delusion to think that most followers of Christianity today actually do. I know some very wonderful Christians but as a whole the central theme of our faith isn't quite upheld as much as it should be.

I work for an organization that helps children in Africa and when the Christian missionaries come with food, and supplies to help them live a better life, it's amazing to see the joy and hope on those children's faces. They have a very good image of what American Christians are like. When you go back home to the U.S., the Christian image is something more along the lines of someone who goes to church only on Sunday, fornicators, and hypocrites. Of course, we're not all that way but those who are the "leaders" in our faith aren't setting a very good example for all of us. As a Christian, I always find myself apologizing on behalf of my faith to people I've met in the LGBT community or of other faiths who have been hurt by the harsh words and actions of other Christians.


The idea of being a Christian loving your neighbor as yourself is a very nice and noble one indeed, but when it comes to the Christian masses actually living and breathing that message, well, that's where the issue comes into play.
Reply

Aprender
03-05-2011, 06:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by
That really is a total strawman. Nothing has been 'whitewashed' regarding the Reformation and it's consequences, the Crusades, so-called 'missionaries' stomping through America slaughtering everyone who wouldn't convert (and many who would), etc. etc, at least in my (English) education. And of course, the history of Islam (or at least things done by muslims) is hardly squeaky clean either. But how relevant is all this to 2011?
Well, your English education did wonders for you, then. I was educated in America where much of this information is swept under the rug in my state. You'll find it, if you seek it or if you're educated in a private school but most of us aren't so fortunate to have that opportunity. And the history of religions aren't really deemed as important on the academic calendar since the math and sciences aren't measuring up globally but that's beside the point. No one is saying that the history of Islam is squeaky clean. This is relevant to 2011 because in this day and age there is a barrage of Christians who stomp on and demonize Islam a thousand times over without even taking the time to look at the history of their own religion. As an educated man you should know then that those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.
Reply

YusufNoor
03-05-2011, 06:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YieldedOne
Argue not with the People of the Book except in the fairest manner, unless it be those of them that are utterly unjust. Say to them: “We believe in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to you. One is our God and your God; and we are those who submit ourselves to Him.”

Surah 29:46

As there are NOT two Gods, all I can assume this passage means is that Muslims and Christians refer to the same God, the ONE God of Abraham, Adam, Moses, and Jesus. So...as I Christian, am I a "person of the Book", brother YusufNoor? Do we have the same God who sent Jesus as Messenger and Prophet?

Hmmm...
the Qur'an is for those who seek guidance. here is another passage about Christianity:

4:171 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.
you have quoted Qur'an, do you believe this verse as well?

if you go back and revisit the original posts, you will see subject matter of Christians using force NOT to spread what was revealed to them but religion as they have changed and adapted it. that is, murder and killing over whether Jesus has 1 nature or 2 natures in the 1st post, and the 2nd deals with murder and killing over whether or not Rome speaks for God or that the Pope speaks for God.

i don't see those as being of the substance of the Message of Jesus, so how can they represent that message?

Let's just be honest: Christianity has been dreadfully INCONSISTENT with the actual message of Jesus and caused untold, horrible suffering upon millions of people over the years because of it. Point blank. Period. Mere humility and historical exploration can show that.
then why object to reviewing the subject? these "inconsistencies" are mired in the "evolution" [so to speak] of Christianity. MAYBE we can "devolve" the religion back from whence it came and get back to the message of Jesus.

But that's just it. Christianity, by and large, has been INCONSISTENT with the Message and the Messenger. But that's not the Messenger's fault or the Message. And the message of Jesus IS his re-affirmation of the "Great Commandments" in the Torah of Moses: Love of God and Love of Neighbor. Many in Muslim intelligensia KNOW this to be true
IF you could decipher EXACTLY what Jesus taught, would you follow it? or would you prefer the teachings of man?

3rddec

Re: Jesus Wars
wiyh respect I believe my point about the true nature of the question has been proven by previous responses and i will continue to resist the temptation to Join the accuser no matter how the trap is set. I will continue to spread the message of "Love God and Love your neighbour" and hope in time enough people will avoid being drawn into the clutches of the accuser and ultimately the war mongers. Im sure if I was to visit Christians sites the war mongers and accusers there could list of an encyclopedia of crimes committed in Islams name both past and present.

i don't think the numbers come close to being similar, and many other varieties of Christianity only survived because of the refuge they found in Muslim lands.

One day im sure all the war mongers will be able to get together and debate the issue, im guessing the place will be hot. I will not post anything further in this thread. It says in the bible " do not cast pearls to swine

so you prefer insult to dealing with the truth? ta ta!
"
how do you promote the message of "Love God and Love your neighbour" by rape and murder? a bit inconsistent.

Have Christians missed the point a lot? Heck, yeah. But again, that's INCONSISTENCY, not dysfunction of the Teaching itself.
if you allow man to change the teachings of your Prophet, you MAKE it dysfunctional, don't you?
Reply

YieldedOne
03-05-2011, 06:36 PM
YusufNoor:
you have quoted Qur'an, do you believe this verse as well?

Brother Yusef. When I quoted that passage, it was to state that, from the Quran's perspective, Christians and Muslims do have the same God: the One God who "revealed" things by his Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. I was responding to your idea that Christians and Muslims don't worship the same God. That's all.

***************************************

YusufNoor:
if you go back and revisit the original posts, you will see subject matter of Christians using force NOT to spread what was revealed to them but religion as they have changed and adapted it. that is, murder and killing over whether Jesus has 1 nature or 2 natures in the 1st post, and the 2nd deals with murder and killing over whether or not Rome speaks for God or that the Pope speaks for God.

i don't see those as being of the substance of the Message of Jesus, so how can they represent that message?

I don't believe that the issue is about the discussion of different points of Christian theology per se (like the dual nature of Christ, etc)...it's the implicit and explicit REJECTION of the Message of Jesus in their attempts to do so. I am very well aware of all of the political intrigue and frankly, unspiritual activity that suffused many of these discussions. But that's just it: those very actions denied the core of the Faith that was being so heavily fought for.
In short, it's not the doctrinal discussions that were the problem...it was the lack of LOVE demonstrated throughout.

*******************************

YO: Let's just be honest: Christianity has been dreadfully INCONSISTENT with the actual message of Jesus and caused untold, horrible suffering upon millions of people over the years because of it. Point blank. Period. Mere humility and historical exploration can show that.

YusufNoor: then why object to reviewing the subject? these "inconsistencies" are mired in the "evolution" [so to speak] of Christianity. MAYBE we can "devolve" the religion back from whence it came and get back to the message of Jesus.

Who's objecting to reviewing history of Christianity? Certainly not me. Especially when it's done as much as possible without undue bias. I don't think anything I've said criticizes the pursuit of good, bad, and ugly of Christian history. Same way with Islamic history.

*********************************

YusufNoor:
IF you could decipher EXACTLY what Jesus taught, would you follow it? or would you prefer the teachings of man?

Brother, I would really, really, REALLY like it if you engaged me on the "Isa: "Great Commandments" as Essential to True Muslim Faith" thread. There I talk about exactly what I believe Jesus taught...flat out. And I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on there. S'il vous plait?

And I try to live by those teachings every single day of my life. Real talk, homie. It's hard, but Allah willing and strengthening, I'll keep at it.
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-07-2011, 06:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
IF, as you say, "Love of God and love of our neighbour" IS the message of your faith, then how do you kill 6,000,000 people over some details that, by your definition, are less consequential?
You are an intelligent person. Figure it out. The message says do XYZ, people do something different. What can be concluded? Said people were NOT following the message.

It wasn't that many years ago that Northern Ireland was a bloodbath. Supposed Christians, some claiming to be protestant others claiming to be Catholic were at war with each other, all in the name of religion. But while they may have waved a particular flag, in my estimation it is false to assume that either group was really living under the lordship of Christ. If they had been, they would not have behaved as they did.







It is natural for people to judge a religion by the behaviors of it practioners. In this regard, Christians have failed Christ for on the whole we have been very poor at living by his commands. And as egregis as they might be you don't have to point to killings to make that point. Just walk into any American city where the majority of people claim to be Christian, and what do you see? A consumption based society in which the poor are being marginalized. That can't happen when people live out the teachings of Christ.

Jesus came to announce the inbreaking of the Kingdom of God and to invite us to join him in living according to that kingdom ethic. Well, hunger is an affront to the reality of God's kingdom. In God's kingdom people don't starve. And when we take on the name of Christ, one of the ways we mark this is by participation in signs of the faith such as the sharing of the Lord's Supper (the Eucharist). Now, some think that this is just a nice little ritual, but it is so much more. For those who truly have faith, faith does its business in the bread and wine of that meal and transforms us. It is a sign of our Lord claiming us, and claiming us as ambassadors of his kingdom. When we pray the prayer that Jesus taught us, we are praying for God's kingdom to come among us and that his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. In other words, we are praying a prayer that sends out to transform the world so that in the end it resembles heaven more.

In that same prayer, we pray for our daily bread. A more accurate translation of this word "daily" might be sufficient or enough. To pray for more would tempt us to try to live as if we wre other than those who live only by the will and the working of a gracious God. When the manna was given to the Hebrew people in the wilderness, they were permitted to gather only as much as they needed for each day. So, daily, we too must reach out to God who daily reaches out to us. To want for more than this day's bread is to be focused on the self and to express lack in belief of God's providence.

Now, if you are a Christian and still reading, at this point I hope you see how this simple prayer moves us to bow on our knees in confession. I say this because, let's face it, most of us -- at least those with access to the internet -- aren't likely to be in a position where we have to think much about daily bread. For most of us, THAT is not the problem. Perhaps a few of us have exactly the opposite problem, a little too much bread. For this is one the problems of humankind, we take God's good gifts and we prevert them, even bread. We become over-indulgent in it. We hoard it. We run the price of it up so as to increase our own profits, often at the expense of those who are most in need. We use it as a weapon. Most of us perish from too much bread rather than too little, filling the gnawing emtpiness within through ceaseless consumption. We are rich and, as one notes in Scripture, rich people are often in big trouble in terms of serving and pleasing God.

Since this thread began by looking at Church history, I want to go there too, back to Gregory of Nysaa. Gregory noted the wonder that in the Lord's Prayer, when one considers all that we need, the only thing we are permitted to ask for is something so basic as bread. Not herds or silken robes, not a prominent position, monuments or statues. Only bread.

Note here as well. When Christains pray this prayer, we are taught to pray, give us this day our daily bread. Bread is a communal product. Bread is a corporate responsibility. St. Basil the Great made explicit in a sermon that nothing that belongs to us is ours alone, particularly that which we have an excess of:
The bread that is spoiling in your house belongs to the hungry. The shoes that are mildewing under your bed belong to those who have none. The clothes stored away in your trunk belong to those who are naked. The moeny that depreciates in your treasury belongs to the poor!
Our bread is not ours to hoard. Our bread belongs to our sisters and our brothers. Bread is God's gift which, like so many other good gifts of God, we pervert by our selfishness.

Yusuf, it isn't just the cases from history (some might say a few extremists, others might see a regular pattern of condoned or even promoted behavior) that prove that Christians don't actually practice the love of which we so much like to speak. In truth, we all have quite a bit of room for improvement. It is a good word.

Whether you meant it that way or not, I don't know. But thank-you for the reminder. I have much work to do, if I am truly going to follow the one who I claim to serve. May we each do better to have our message reflect his message of and command to love which Christ himself shared with the world. If he is my Lord, I'm not just accountable when Yusuf points out failings throughout history to which I can say, that I didn't do any of those things. But his Spirit (which Yusuf was an instrument of today) also reminds me that there are things that Christ has called me to do in the practice of living a life of love which others might point at and say to me, "Well, you didn't do any of those things either." It's not enough to say "I believe", if I truly believe he is my Lord, I need live a life of service which exemplifies his message and actually be a instrument of God's message of love.
Reply

Fivesolas
03-07-2011, 03:01 PM
Here is a question/statement that any is certainly free to answer, but is designed more to provoke thoughtfulness. As you study, to greater or lesser degree, the life and practice of Jesus as presented in the Gospels, which appear more as a pattern from His Holy life, the persecuted or the persecutor? Whether the blows fell from a papal or protestant hand, from secular state or religious, in whose face do you see a reflection of Christ?
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