Pagan Christianity Worships

[Ramadhan]

Lately, a certain catholic (?) member, 3rddec, of this forum has been creating threads about his accusations (based, on his own admission, from vicious anti islamic sites) that tried to connect Islam to pagan symbols, ie. crescent moon and black stones, which on both occasions have been proven by members as totally false. Anyone with basic understanding of Islam would never even have asked the question, as they would certainly know that crescent and black stones hold no significance in Islamic worship whatsoever.

But since he seems to be very interested to find out and discuss connections between religions practices and pagan roots, let's help him out by listing pagan symbols and pagan roots of worship that are currently practiced by christians at large, and catholics in particular. I will not create a thread for each pagan symbol/worship in christianity (like what 3rddec did with Islam) as it would result in me spamming this forum with dozens of new threads. So let's collect pagan symbols/roots/worships in christianity within this one thread only.

When you discuss paganisms within christinaity, it is just an embarrassment of the riches, really.
While early Christianity arose as a movement within 1st century Judaism, following the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. As such, Christianity developed within the matrix of Judaism, relatively independent from pagan religious beliefs and customs. With a missionary commitment to both Jews and Gentiles (non-Jews), Christianity rapidly spread into the greater Roman empire and beyond. Here, Christianity came into conflict with pagan beliefs and cult.
By the 2nd century, many Christians were converts from paganism. These conflicts are recorded in the works of the early Christian writers such as Justin Martyr as well as hostile reports by writers including Tacitus and Seutonius. From then on it's all going downhill for christianity.


Oh, where do we even begin?
So let's just have a go and list them one by one per post, shall we?

1. The assimilation and personalisation of Sol Invictus Mithras (the indian, persian and roman son god) into Jesus (pbuh).
Even Mithras' birthday of 25 december is adopted as jesus', and Mithras' lord's day of sunday was adopted as jesus as sabbath was moved from saturday (Jesus, being a staunch jew always observed sabbath on saturday) to sunday.

[Fivesolas]

For those of us who are academically minded, could you please cite your sources? I prefer scholarly work to wikipedia and .com sites. Thanks. I don't need a source of Tacitus has I have his works at home. Just reference what your reading from his work. Thanks.

[3rddec]

Before responding to Naidamars thread could you plz read the last entry I made in the thread related to black stones. While im happy to be tried for any crimes I commit I'm unhappy to be misquoted and my reasoning totally subverted by someone who has either not read what iv'e written or being completely devoid of understanding of logic and subtlety in arguement.

Love and Respect

[Little_Lion]

I hope that people will excuse that I don't cite sources; this is knowledge accumulated over several years as a Wiccan priestess in the past. Anyone is welcome of course to research it on their own and discuss what I say here and I will answer to the best of my ability, insha'Allah. I also have my husband here, who almost became a Catholic priest, who has offered to answer any questions he can.

Many Christian holidays are yes, timed to coincide with and directly compete with mostly European pagan holidays. Christmas (December 25th) is timed to compete directly with Yule (the winter solstice, around December 21st). Yule would be the day that the pagan god would be reborn; he dies annually on Samhain (October 30th/31st depending on tradition, aka Halloween). The Catholics of course have All Saint's Day/All Hallow's Day to compete with Samhain, as well. Easter competes with, depending on the year, Beltaine (May 1st) or Ostara (the Spring Equinox, around March 21st); on Ostara, the pagan goddess oversees the reawakening of the earth, often symbolized by the birthing of lambs (any correlation there? ;) ) and on Beltaine - um, lets just say it's a very un-Islamic festival of fertility that Christians would want to end.

The concept of the Holy Trinity itself may have Pagan backgrounds (my husband states he cannot argue for or against this concept). Many gods and goddesses in Europe were seen as trinities - a young, middle-aged, and elderly deity, often by different names. The emphasis on the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost MAY have arisen as competition to the god and goddess trines, to say "ours is three too". However, there is a lot of debate on this one as to which came first, as there was a lot of editing of the Bible during this time.

There's many, many, MANY more examples, I'll post more as I think of them, insha'Allah.

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[Little_Lion]

Now my husband is on a kick. :)

The chalice - the pagan goddesses were often symbolized as a chalice, being the receptors of the water of life. It was very commonly seen on pagan altars across Europe (and is still seen on pagan altars today). The chalice - the Holy Grail itself - is a major part of Christianity and to some, coincidentally, may symbolize a woman (the wife of Jesus (saw) ).

The Communion - eating the body of Christ and drinking his blood very likely arose in direct competition to pagan harvest festivals, where the harvest was seen to be the embodiment of the goddess and god.

The cross itself goes back way before the Crucifixion, and has been a religious symbol in many ancient faiths, with depictions of crosses dating back to the Stone Age. Some pre-Christian coins show a rider carrying a cross that bears a living branch, symbolizing the Tree of Life.

The apple, maligned in Christianity as the fruit that brought sin to Mankind, was considered sacred to pagans of many cultures, as a symbol of the goddess and wisdom.

Still thinking! :D

[Fivesolas]

That's fine if there are no sources. I would prefer to refer to the said holidays as Papal holidays. I cannot find the ones you are referencing in the Bible. I know of no celebration commanded by God under the New Covenant save the Lord's Table and Baptism, which are ordinances, rather than holidays. That we (Christians) gather on Sunday to our worship is pattern after the example of the Apostles in the NT. The specific command of how God is to be worshipped is in Spirit and Truth. The New Covenant Sabbath is Christ. Our commend for coming together is that we not forsake the assembly of ourselves, and all the more as we see the Day approaching.
You may reference the Gosples for teaching on true worshippers. Hebrews 4 for the Sabbath.

For clarification, I do not subscribe to the idea that the Roman Catholic Church is a Christian church.

[Hiroshi]

The cross itself goes back way before the Crucifixion, and has been a religious symbol in many ancient faiths, with depictions of crosses dating back to the Stone Age. Some pre-Christian coins show a rider carrying a cross that bears a living branch, symbolizing the Tree of Life.

The best evidence we have is that the instrument of Jesus' death according to the Bible was not a cross at all but rather a single upright stake. The original Greek words used to describe it are "stauros" and "xylon".

In classical Greek, stauros meant merely an upright stake or pale although later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece. The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stau‧ros′], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.

And A Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, defines xylon as meaning: “Wood cut and ready for use, firewood, timber, etc. . . . piece of wood, log, beam, post . . . cudgel, club . . . stake on which criminals were impaled . . . of live wood, tree.” It also says “in NT, of the cross,” and cites Acts 5:30 and 10:39 as examples. (Oxford, 1968, pp. 1191, 1192) However, in those verses KJ, RS, JB, and Dy translate xy′lon as “tree.”

The name of the musical instrument the xylophone comes from "xylon". It is made from a number of straight strips of wood of varying lengths which are struck to make musical sounds. It is not made from crosses.

In the Septuagint at Ezra 6:11 the word xylon clearly means a single upright timber, not a cross.

The use of the cross as a holy religious symbol is entirely pagan in origin. And the claim that Jesus died on a cross finds no support in the Bible.

[Perseveranze]

I actually lol'd at the accusations he made, obviously got it from a certain amatuer anti-Islam website.

People honestly are happy to dumb themselves down just to try and feel comfortable with their own illogical beliefs.

[Hiroshi]

I actually lol'd at the accusations he made, obviously got it from a certain amatuer anti-Islam website.

People honestly are happy to dumb themselves down just to try and feel comfortable with their own illogical beliefs.

There are a number of misconceptions that people have about Jesus due to popular legend that is not supported by any evidence from the Bible. Jesus was definitely not born on December 25. He could not have been born later than October because at the time of his birth there were shepherds with their flocks of sheep at night in the open field. During the winter this would not have been possible. The animals would have been taken to shelter from the bitter cold of the winter weather in Palestine.

Another misconception is that Jesus was visited by three kings at his birth. The men who visited him were not kings but astrologers from the east. Nowhere are we told that there were three. There could have been any number of them. And also when they came to him he was not a baby in a manger but a child in a house (Matthew 2:11).

The makers of the video want to draw parallels between the story of Jesus and pagan mythology but they make many false statements such as those I have noted above. I am not impressed.

[Sol Invictus]

i only watched up until the point where it was claimed that horus was born from a virgin and given that this was wholly incorrect i didn't bother with the rest. the fact is that after osiris' body was cut up into 14 pieces (i believe) isis managed to find all the parts except for one--his genitals--because a fish had eaten it. she then fashioned a makeshift penis for osiris and the two of them conceived horus that way. i can see how one might stretch this out (in the broadest sense possible) to mean a virgin birth but it simply is not. there was sex involved in order to produce horus. that the fact that the maker of the video got his information from the zeitgeist movie certainly doesn't help. he should actually go an do the research for himself instead of believing everything that is on the internet.

[Woodrow]

Somebody post something that can convince me this thread actually has any value beyond the opening post. I am probably as anti-Christian as anybody you will ever meet. But I see no value in bashing any religion. We need to concentrate on showing the truth of Islam, not the faults we see in others.

[truthseeker63]

Christianity is Paganism.

[gmcbroom]

Hmmmmm........I almost didn't respond to this thread. Because it pits one faith against another. However, it is in essence a gauntlet being thrown down. So, I'll do my best in trying to get the facts straight concerning Christianity.

I'll begin with Crucifixion. Crucifixion had been a method of capital punishment of the Roman empire for a long time. Plutarch, a Graeco Roman Historian and biographer wrote of crucifixion as a method used during Third Servile Wars's slave uprising by Spartacus. Though Spartacu's fate is unknown, the Roman General Crassus, captured 6,000 slaves and crucified them, along the Appian Way. Because of this act he was elevated to Consul along with Pompeii.

Plutarchus's lives:"The Life of Crassus and the Life of Pompey." Mestrius Plutarchus ISBN 0-375-75677-9

[gmcbroom]

As for the Sol Invictus Mithras connection alluded in the Original Post. That was a Roman Elitist cult that existed from 100-400A.D. It was a cult said to be from Iran. But the Iran Theology doesn't support this and in fact conflicts with it as it uses Roman culture. Mithras was born of a rock.

How that compares to the Virgin birth is beyond me.
Peace be with you

[Little_Lion]

Somebody post something that can convince me this thread actually has any value beyond the opening post. I am probably as anti-Christian as anybody you will ever meet. But I see no value in bashing any religion. We need to concentrate on showing the truth of Islam, not the faults we see in others.

I don't see it as bashing . . . I think it is very important for people of ANY faith to understand the influences that led up to certain practices in their religion, our own included. I think the study of the pre-Islamic Arabian Peninsula is fascinating, especially now restudying it with some knowledge of the Qur'an, and Hadith, the Sunnah, and how prior practices were both called out as haram or upheld as halal. Unfortunately, some people don't necessarily care for reminders, this is true . . . I knew Wiccans who screamed bloody murder when reminded that their "ancient religion", as practiced today, is only as old as the 1940's.

[Hiroshi]

i only watched up until the point where it was claimed that horus was born from a virgin and given that this was wholly incorrect i didn't bother with the rest. the fact is that after osiris' body was cut up into 14 pieces (i believe) isis managed to find all the parts except for one--his genitals--because a fish had eaten it. she then fashioned a makeshift penis for osiris and the two of them conceived horus that way. i can see how one might stretch this out (in the broadest sense possible) to mean a virgin birth but it simply is not. there was sex involved in order to produce horus. that the fact that the maker of the video got his information from the zeitgeist movie certainly doesn't help. he should actually go an do the research for himself instead of believing everything that is on the internet.

Thanks for your research Sol Invictus.

[gmcbroom]

Hello All,

I just found this website it would seem to debunk the Mithras Jesus connection. Believe it or not. Don't my word for it read it yourself and follow the evidence.

http://www.thedevineevidence.com/pag...t_mithras.html

Peace be with you
gmcbroom

[Sol Invictus]

Thanks for your research Sol Invictus.

no problem hiroshi, glad i could help.

[gmcbroom]

As for the Easter bunny it would seem to actually be a Christianized fertility rite from Celtic Christianity which competed with Roman Christianity for a time. That was disappointing for me to learn, its but not a something that would cause me to doubt Christianity.

http://www.catholicexpert.com/articl...ster_bunny.htm

peace be with you

[MrOmar]

Christians follow the lies of the Devil Paul may Allah (SWT) curse him. Easter is a pagan practice that false man-made evil Christianity asks it follows to take part in. Jesus resurrection what a lie for Allah (SWT) says in the Holy Quran the Book of God not the man-made bible. 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- 4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- 4:159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- Subhan'Allah in this verse Isa (PBUH) jesus will be a witness against them, yet they the Christians still worship Isa (PBUH) jesus & his Mother as gods. Allah (SWT) Says in the Holy Quran 5:116 And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. 5:117 "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. Subhan'Allah in this verse Isa (PBUH) jesus rejects the lies of Christianity. I hope the Christians wake up to start worshiping the One & Only god Allah (SWT). Let’s all pray that the conquest of Rome will happen in our life time so that we may see truth (Islam) destroy falsehood (Christianity) like how it was done in Constantinople. Both are in hadiths says of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) its just a matter of time when Rome falls.[QUOTE=gmcbroom;1426944]As for the Easter bunny it would seem to actually be a Christianized fertility rite from Celtic Christianity which competed with Roman Christianity for a time. That was disappointing for me to learn, its but not a something that would cause me to doubt Christianity.