The Decline of Christianity in the UK

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Found an interesting chapter from the book 'The Rage Against God' that I would like to share. Obviously its from a conservative Christian viewpoint but I wonder if there are any lessons for Muslims (or anybody that matter) that could be learned from the decline in Christianity in the UK.

The Decline of Christianity - by Peter Hitchens

Western Christianity has undergone several separate reverses and defeats in the modern ear. It was permanently divided by the reformation; it was weakened by the Enlightenment and the bold claims of modern science; it did itself huge damage during modern wars, by allowing itself to be recruited to opposing sides. This problem was most harshly stated by Abraham Lincoln in his second inaugural address on the 4th March 1865 in which he pointed to the absurdity of both sides seeking the aid of the same God.

Lincoln, who seems not haven been a Christian but who knew his Bible better than most believers, was undeniably right – though his target was not the Church but the Christian slave owners. The same absurdity was on display in the First World War in which soldiers of both sides initiated and enthusiastically joined an unbearably poignant Christmas Truce in 1914 which – had it spread and taken hold – might have ended the whole undertaking. The decline of Christianity, Catholic and Protestant in Europe dates from this war, in which leaders of national Churches gave their support to the war making of democratic politicians and so helped destroy themselves for many years to come.

Previous European wars had been over more quickly, and had not brought about such terrible numbers of deaths and maimings. Many priests and pastors performed great acts of personal bravery and sacrifice, bringing comfort to the dying and not shirking terrible danger and privation. But the gospels could not really be made to endorse or excuse mass murder, the rapid loss of all delicacy of language and feeling, everything which had been considered good and fair before; the acres of unburied dead rotting in plain sight until consumed by rats, the resulting growth of mercilessness and brutality at home, thanks to the corruption of mens morals by what they had seen; the devastation of family life and social order. As old regimes, one by one, crumbled and sagged, the churches crumbled and sagged with them.

Protestant England was particularly troubled after the war was over because most of the its very Protestant churches were unable to permit the prayers for the dead that so many bereaved families would have liked to offer. Spiritualism, with its promise of renewed contact with the departed, briefly flourished because of this, prompting Rudyard Kipling to write the poem ‘En-dor’ warning the bereaved that they were being cruelly manipulated for gain. But in general the Church of England suffered the decay of authority and the loss of trust and deference which affected every established pillar of English society.

People had gone to war for things they completely believed in, and had been completely betrayed. Promised glory and humour, they had found hideous death, mud, sin, mutilation, rats and filth. They had astonishingly, passed through it without any serious mutiny (in the case of the British armies) or collapse in morale. But they knew, and everyone knew, they had been fooled and that whatever they had fought for had been lost during the squalor of war. Among those who had deceived them were their Christian pastors. Never such innocence again, as Philip Larkin wrote about the last hours of old England in August 1914:

Never such innocence
Never before or since
As changed itself to past
Without a word – the men
Leaving the gardens tidy
The thousands of marriages
Lasting a little while longer
Never such innocence again

Even so Christianity still survived into the 1930s and into the early 1950s as a considerable if weakened force. Church attendance fell, but was still healthy by the standards of today. The supremacy of the Christian faith was assumed in schools, state and private, and in public life in general. It was affirmed in teh great national ceremonies, such as the two Coronations of the era – George VI in 1937 and Elizabeth II in 1953. The national broadcaster, British Broadcasting Corporation, was still unquestionably Christian. Well into the 1950s it broadcast on its main morning news programme an uncompromisingly Christian segment entitled ‘Lift up your hearts’ as well as a number of church services at other times of the day. The important thing was that nobody thought this was odd. But 50 years later it is more or less unimaginable.

For the disillusion of the First World War has by now been reinforced by the double disillusion of the Second. In Britian a supposedly glorious victory was followed by two astonishing experiences. The first was severe economic crises, made worse by the exceptionally cold winter and appalling pollution – a time of lethal smogs of frozen pipes and frozen railways, of profound shortages and rationing far more restrictive than it had been during wartime, when supply convoys were being torpedoed by German submarines. Bread had never been rationed in the war. Now it was.

This dismal period made talk of victory seem especially hollow, in a country that was still damaged and exhausted by six years of total war. It brought home to those who had not yet understood it the great decline of the country as an economic and political power. The Church, associated with discredited authority and supplanted by an increasingly social (as opposed to individual) conscience and social gospel, went into accelerated decline as the pre war generations of habitual worshippers slowly died away.

At around this time, the great missions of Billy Graham to Britain laid the foundations of a new evangelism which has in recent years become a major force in the English Church. And the Roman Catholic Church, with its comparatively uncompromising position, seduced many thoughtful English Christians from the increasingly relativistic and agnostic established Church of England. But that established Church itself lost authority and, though still present in every corner of England spoke to and for fewer and fewer people.

It was the 1940s revolutionary period of nationalisation, rationing and growing state power that gave George Orwell the imaginative background for 1984, his novel about a perpetual socialist future of oppression, regimentation and shortage. For it was coupled with one of the most thoroughgoing attempts to introduce a socialist state ever attempted in a free country with the rule of law and an elected parliament. The labour government elected in 1945, with a huge parliamentary majority had many of the characteristics of a revolution, nationalising private property and centralising state power, greatly increasing the direct role of government in the national life in way never before attempted in peacetime (though familiar from the recent war).

Many of its measures were popular, not least the creation of the National Health Service (NHS) which made most doctors employees of the state but gave the poor guaranteed free medical treatment. Many of these changes had their roots in English and Scottish radicalism, not in Marxism or Communism, and were inspired by Christian sentiments. The wartime Archbishop of Canterbury William Temple, had considered himself a Christian Socialist, and much of the Church of England believed that the 1945 Labour government was enacting Christian legislation and turning the country into an ideal Christian society. One effect of this was that the Church relinquished control of many secondary schools to the state (a mistake the Roman Catholics did not make), in return for the promise of a daily act of Christian worship in all schools, a promise that would be extensively broken within a few decades.

A commitment to social welfare at home and liberal anti-colonialism abroad became – in many cases – an acceptable substitute for Christian faith. It is very much so today.

Britain began a long and rather strange era in which it was simultaneously conservative and socialist. Many of its institutions customs and traditions were conservative in character, but its government was egalitarian and radical. The conservative elements in the country were strengthened artificially by the outbreak of the Cold war, which identified the more extreme forms of socialism with the national enemy in Moscow. Thus the political conflict between growing secular egalitarianism and the remaining fortresses of Christian conservatism was left unresolved for decades. During this time, the weakness of Christianity among the people and in the schools grew, and cultural revolution of all kinds (described in my 1999 book The abolition of Britain) continued at all levels.

During the 1960s Christianity was slowly, by gradual degrees, driven into the margins even when religious matters were under discussion. A new generation of teachers, many of them not themselves Christian in any serious way, did not wish to obey the law requiring a daily act of Christian worship in state schools. A revolutionary reorganisations of these schools in the 1960s and 1970s combined with an official decision to widen the recruitment of teachers, coincided with the cultural revolution of the same period. At around the same time, Britain began to absorb (or in many cases fail to absorb) large numbers of migrants from the Indian sub contentment who were not Christian.

On the ground of good manners, many teacher and local government authorities felt unable to continue to behave as if Christianity was the national religion. It is difficult to tell whether this was motivated in all or most cases by a kindly tactfulness, an attempt at tolerance, or a disguised desire to weaken Christianity, which found multiculturalism a convenient excuse. This led over time to absorb paradoxes, such as the existence in some parts of England of ‘Church of England’ primary schools whose pupils are almost exclusively Muslim, thanks to the transformation of the areas involved by migrant populations.

A belief in multiculturalism, promoted by those who disliked the Christian, patriotic monoculture of the country, became common among educationalists and among teachers themselves. The very idea that Christianity could and should be taught as a belief which the teacher and pupils both shared became increasingly hard to sustain. If it was taught at all, the Christian religion was explained as something which other people might believe, but which listeners were not expected to embrace themselves.

The headquarters of the BBC, the national broadcasting service, is dedicated to Almighty God and adorned with a scriptural exhortation to pursue ‘whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are true and of good report’. Yet in recent years BBC announcers began to say of Easter not that it celebrated the Resurrection of Christ but that on this day ‘Christians celebrate their belief in the resurrection of Christ’ or similar neutral formulation. Had Britain not until recently been a specifically Christian country, these changes would not be so striking. The transition from official Christianity to official religious neutrality has been cautious and gradual and, as such things often are, noticed only by the more committed.

It remains incomplete, but the process is clearly visible to the observant. On the main radio channel, a daily Christian service is transmitted but only on the little used Long Wave frequency. The confident evangelism of ‘lift up your hearts’ has been supplanted by ;Thought for the day’ in which Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus, and the occasional Christian communicate vapid thoughts in general subjects. The singing of an Easter Hymns on the morning of Easter Day appears to have been quietly discontinued. There are religious programmes, but often these take a form of a neutral or hostile discussion of religious current affairs featuring long items about Roman Catholic priests abusing Children, or Anglican arguments about homosexuality. Alternatively they show gathering of elderly people singing hymns. Recently the Corporation appointed a Muslim as its head of religious broadcasting.

These things have happened not because of the rage against religion in Britain (though such a rage is increasingly common among the intelligentsia for reasons I shall come to) but because the British establishment has ceased to be Christian and has inherited a society with Christian forms and traditions. It does not know what to do with them or how to replace them. Into this confusion and emptiness the new militant secularists now seek to bring an aggressive atheism.

[Fivesolas]

Nevermind...I asked the source, but you said it was from the book.

Just ordered the book. I think what Mr. Hitchins has to say might be important to Americans. Our government is taking similiar steps toward multiculturalism, secularism, et.

[YieldedOne]

Quote:
"These things have happened not because of the rage against religion in Britain (though such a rage is increasingly common among the intelligentsia for reasons I shall come to) but because the British establishment has ceased to be Christian and has inherited a society with Christian forms and traditions. It does not know what to do with them or how to replace them. Into this confusion and emptiness the new militant secularists now seek to bring an aggressive atheism.":

This is what happens with subjectively-appropriated "lived" faith as individuals-in-community turns into mere socio-cultural normativity. The difference between being One People in Christ and "Christendom." This is exactly what Soren Kierkegaard was trying to fight in Denmark. He SAW the beginnings of this.

[Zafran]

Quote:
"These things have happened not because of the rage against religion in Britain (though such a rage is increasingly common among the intelligentsia for reasons I shall come to) but because the British establishment has ceased to be Christian and has inherited a society with Christian forms and traditions. It does not know what to do with them or how to replace them. Into this confusion and emptiness the new militant secularists now seek to bring an aggressive atheism.":

This is what happens with subjectively-appropriated "lived" faith as individuals-in-community turns into mere socio-cultural normativity. The difference between being One People in Christ and "Christendom." This is exactly what Soren Kierkegaard was trying to fight in Denmark. He SAW the beginnings of this.

Even though I disagree with Hitchens most of the time, I have to say he nailed it with that Quote exactly what Britian has become.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Trumble]

Two questions;

1. What exactly is wrong with "official religious neutrality"? In a multicultural (using the word in a general and not 'political' sense) society isn't that a good thing? As long as everybody can practice the religion they want, it seems so to me. So does the fact the BBC are confident enough to appoint a muslim as head of religious broadcasting?

2. Who exactly are these "new militant secularists now seek to bring an aggressive atheism"? OK, we can all name a couple of people who write books and make noise (like Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, Peter's brother), but who with any real influence is suggesting such a policy?

The whole thing just seems like a nostalgia piece to me. Whether Christianity is declining in the UK or not, there's no reason 'Christian values' can't be replaced and/or supplemented by muslim, Buddhist, humanist or whatever values. When it comes to how we should relate to our fellow citizens they all amount to pretty much the same thing in different wrappings, anyway.

[Fivesolas]

Even though I disagree with Hitchens most of the time, I have to say he nailed it with that Quote exactly what Britian has become.

Christian forms and traditions...let them be dispensed with. The Lord never initiated them to begin with. But I will say this....do not begin to suppose that because an outform fades away, that somehow the Church is gone. The living Church of Christ is alive and well in the UK.

[YieldedOne]

Fivesolas:
Christian forms and traditions...let them be dispensed with. The Lord never initiated them to begin with.

Amen. Moreover Christian forms and traditions that are grounded on anything but love is worthless anyways. (I Corinthians 13)

*****************************

Fivesolas:
But I will say this....do not begin to suppose that because an outform fades away, that somehow the Church is gone. The living Church of Christ is alive and well in the UK.

That's just true worldwide. Check the stats. That Church of Christ is alive and well in the world, homie.

From my perspective, as long as "God is Love" (I John 4) and Jesus the Messiah's "Body", by the God's Spirit, demonstrates God's love (ie lives out the Great Commandments of Jesus in faith by God's Grace)...true Christianity will never die. Christianity is as "eternal" as Love is eternal.

Love of God and Love of Neighbor as self demonstrates the "divine" reality that Christ stood for in service to His God and His "Father."

Word is bond. :shade:

[Fivesolas]

Fivesolas:
Christian forms and traditions...let them be dispensed with. The Lord never initiated them to begin with.

Amen. Moreover Christian forms and traditions that are grounded on anything but love is worthless anyways. (I Corinthians 13)

*****************************

Fivesolas:
But I will say this....do not begin to suppose that because an outform fades away, that somehow the Church is gone. The living Church of Christ is alive and well in the UK.

That's just true worldwide. Check the stats. That Church of Christ is alive and well in the world, homie.

From my perspective, as long as "God is Love" (I John 4) and Jesus the Messiah's "Body", by the God's Spirit, demonstrates God's love (ie lives out the Great Commandments of Jesus in faith by God's Grace)...true Christianity will never die. Christianity is as "eternal" as Love is eternal.

Love of God and Love of Neighbor as self demonstrates the "divine" reality that Christ stood for in service to His God and His "Father."

Word is bond. :shade:

The church cannot be destroyed because He who is its Author said, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." True Christianity will never die because the risen Lord is the Author and the Finisher of our faith.

[Sol Invictus]

The church cannot be destroyed because He who is its Author said, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." True Christianity will never die because the risen Lord is the Author and the Finisher of our faith.

For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." --- 1 Peter 2:6 NIV

amen!!

[LavaDog]

I wonder if there are any lessons for Muslims (or anybody that matter) that could be learned from the decline in Christianity in the UK.

Not trying to be a a** but I do wonder how people in mostly Islamic countries feel about this. It mentions several times that immigration and multiculturalism is to blame and I know many most muslims would say the west needs to be more tolerent of other cultures. I can't help but wonder what would happen if a couple million european immigrants who practice a religion like asatru showed up in a country in the middle east and demanded rights and tolerance. I don't think they would give in quite as easliy as the west did.

[Zafran]

Not trying to be a a** but I do wonder how people in mostly Islamic countries feel about this. It mentions several times that immigration and multiculturalism is to blame and I know many most muslims would say the west needs to be more tolerent of other cultures. I can't help but wonder what would happen if a couple million european immigrants who practice a religion like asatru showed up in a country in the middle east and demanded rights and tolerance. I don't think they would give in quite as easliy as the west did.

Salaam

The mid east is a multicultural and multi religous in many places such as Egypt with Copts, Jews in Iran and Yemen - you have to remember most of these lands that are now muslim were christian- Europe on the other hand has not realy lived with other cultures and faiths for a long time (Jews probabaly being the only exception) - even places like china and India have been places where many religions and culture have lived togather - not always peacefully - europe has not been a multi faith/race/culture place for a long time - only until recently do you have people from all over the world coming to the west.

peace

[LavaDog]

The mid east is a multicultural and multi religous in many places such as Egypt with Copts, Jews in Iran and Yemen

I agree that the middle east has lived quite well more or less with different faiths. But the main religions worship the same god more or less and the history is interwoven. I used asatru which is pagan to try to try and compare how alien some of the things in Islam were to European culture. I was wondering what would happen if we would see a country like Egypt get a huge amount of people who look different and have a religon that is not similar to their own. The police in the UK may completly stop using dogs to search houses of muslims and they have no go zones in france where the authorities only go if the residents allow them to pass. I just wondered would the middle east give pagans the same kind of tolerance. Still not trying to be an a**.

[Zafran]

I agree that the middle east has lived quite well more or less with different faiths. But the main religions worship the same god more or less and the history is interwoven. I used asatru which is pagan to try to try and compare how alien some of the things in Islam were to European culture. I was wondering what would happen if we would see a country like Egypt get a huge amount of people who look different and have a religon that is not similar to their own. The police in the UK may completly stop using dogs to search houses of muslims and they have no go zones in france where the authorities only go if the residents allow them to pass. I just wondered would the middle east give pagans the same kind of tolerance. Still not trying to be an a**.

That depends on the country but historically communities were preety much left to govern themselves as long as they payed the Jizya tax - The Jews that migrated to the Ottoman empire after the inquistion is a good example.

Going back to your pagan example - when the Mughals took over India they were clearly tolerant enough to the hindus who still outnumber the Muslims in that region.

[Ubeyde]

Salaam.
I request people interested to look up the theory of Darwinism, the main beliefs of Zionism and the role of the African and Oriental Studies.
You will find your answers there.
Jazakarallah

[truthseeker63]

America has always been Secular also Christianity is dying because it is false.

[Woodrow]

Christianity is in decline and decay. Just my opinion but I see Christianity very near it's last day as an organized religion.

While the numbers of those professing to be Christian grows, the number of those who practice it seem to be in decline. I believe the greatest threat to Christianity, is Christians. Organized Christianity began falling apart with the Reformation and the advent of Protestantism. that almost immediately divided Christians into 3 groups. Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant. In the 1860s a new phenomena developed. the concept of "Bible" only Christians. Church doctrine came to be seen as unimportant and even erroneous. the movement was one for a religion based upon the Bible and the "Holy Spirit" the result was an almost immediate explosion of non-denominational/bible only churches. This movement is still spreading and while it grows it is destroying any cohesiveness and/or organization.

the modern trend in Christianity can even be seen on the numerous Christian views we see expressed.

Christian forms and traditions...let them be dispensed with. The Lord never initiated them to begin with. But I will say this....do not begin to suppose that because an outform fades away, that somehow the Church is gone. The living Church of Christ is alive and well in the UK.

The trend is fast becoming to dispense with forms and traditions. What will soon remain are very numerous small groups each with an individual concept of Christianity. Christians need not worry about us Muslims destroying Christianity. they will soon do it themselves. We see a pattern developing:

individuals forming the early churches

The churches organizing and becoming a major world power.

a split in power and dispersal into 3 major divisions

a sudden out growth of complete individualization of worship

Now a desire to end all organized Christian denominations and cast aside ritual and traditions.

The next and final step will be disenchantment with the individual pastors and preachers

Christianity now seems to be the road that will lead to disunity, and disbelief and make Christianity into the fastest path to agnosticism or atheism.

[gmcbroom]

I think eventually the Catholic Church will receive a new influx of Christians yearning to learn how it all began their roots as it were. As the other eccleasial communities start to contradict themslves. While the rise of other religions is a cause for concern the Catholic Church will weather it shrinking in some spots and growing in others. Those areas where it shrinks will have some that hold dearly to the faith even though their numbers will be few. As for its rising in others look at the Anglican Ordinarites that are forming to bring those that seek it back to the Church.

Peace be with you
gmcbroom

[MrOmar]

Worships of the Evil Pope, Catholics worship a new god/devil the Pope who lies about god saying he has a son which he has no right to say. The Pope follows another devil called Paul May Allah curses him. May Paul & the Popes enjoy the Hell Fire forever. I hope the Catholics wake up to start worshiping the One & Only god Allah (SWT). Let’s all pray that the conquest of Rome will happen in our life time so that we may see truth (Islam) destroy falsehood (Christianity) like how it was done in Constantinople. Both are in hadiths says of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) its just a matter of time when Rome falls. 19:34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. 19:35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. 19:36 Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight. 19:37 But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day! (The Holy Quran Surah 19 Mary) 5:116 And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. 5:117 "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. (The Holy Quran Surah 5 Al Mâ'idah) 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- 4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- 4:159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- (The Holy Quran Surah 4 An Nisâ') Read the Real Book of God The Holy Quran not the man-made bible.

I think eventually the Catholic Church will receive a new influx of Christians yearning to learn how it all began their roots as it were. As the other eccleasial communities start to contradict themslves. While the rise of other religions is a cause for concern the Catholic Church will weather it shrinking in some spots and growing in others. Those areas where it shrinks will have some that hold dearly to the faith even though their numbers will be few. As for its rising in others look at the Anglican Ordinarites that are forming to bring those that seek it back to the Church.

Peace be with you
gmcbroom

[UsayIsaIsayGod]

Very good post, Woodrow. I think you have wonderful insight. Christianity does indeed seem to be on the decline. First there was the East-West schism, then the Protestant reformation, then the spawn of Adventists, up to today where the 'Christianized' societies have become increasingly sexually immoral, selfish, substance-abusing, and hateful. These societies are fast departing from any idea of God and embracing Atheism where they take no accountability for their actions.

The bible does mention this as an inevitable path, I am curious as to what the Q'uran does say about it? Will you teach me, Woodrow?

[Futuwwa]

Meh, I wouldn't know. Extrapolating current developments led Voltaire (18th century) to predict that Christianity would be forgotten after a mere 100 years. Didn't quite turn out that way.

My guess would rather be that it will keep shrinking a bit more, then stabilize. And that we will gradually go towards greater parity of membership between different religions. In today's interconnected and information-abundant world, it becomes less and less likely that people who take religion seriously will simply go with whatever religion happens to be the mainstream one locally.

[Woodrow]

Very good post, Woodrow. I think you have wonderful insight. Christianity does indeed seem to be on the decline. First there was the East-West schism, then the Protestant reformation, then the spawn of Adventists, up to today where the 'Christianized' societies have become increasingly sexually immoral, selfish, substance-abusing, and hateful. These societies are fast departing from any idea of God and embracing Atheism where they take no accountability for their actions.

The bible does mention this as an inevitable path, I am curious as to what the Q'uran does say about it? Will you teach me, Woodrow?

At the moment I am brain dead but there is an ayyat that goes something like:

The Jews will divide into 71 sects but only one will lead to Jannah, The Christians will divide into 72 sects, but only one will lead to Jannah. Islam will divide into 73 sects but only one will lead to Jannah.

I am not certain about the numbers 71,72 and 73 and I believe they may not be intended to be an actual count but rather to show the Abrahamic faiths will divide into many divisions but most will be in error.

I will try to find the ayyat and will add it here as an edit as soon as I find it.

EDIT: Here is the ayyat. It is from the ahadith:

Abdullah bin Amar (RA) relates that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said “Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well, verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sections but my people will be divided into 73 sections, all of them will be in the fire except one.” The companions asked, ‘Who are they O Messenger of Allah,’ Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “They are those who will be like me and my companions.” (Tirmidi Bab-al-Iman, Bab Iftiraq Vol 2 P-88-89,

[Ramadhan]

anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother

It doesnt surprise me if there are sons having sexual relations with their mothers in the west already, what with adoptions (anonymous or non), sperm donors, surrogate mothers, gays and lesbians adopting children and renting wombs or paying for sperms, which cut off links between (biological) parents and their children.
The current trend among celebrities seem to be gays and lesbians buying babies and/or renting wombs.

[aadil77]

I think islam will be the new christianity and judaism, we unite all three faiths into one

[سيف الله]

Salaam

This is relevant to the debate on the decline of Christanity

Cardinal Keith O'Brien criticises secularism

The leader of the Catholic Church in Scotland, Cardinal Keith O'Brien, has used his Easter message to attack "aggressive secularism". It was an issue Pope Benedict warned about on his state visit to Britain last year. Cardinal O'Brien said the enemies of Christianity wanted to "take God from the public sphere". The cardinal has made a reputation for his robust defence of traditionalist Christian teaching.

But BBC religious affairs correspondent Robert Pigott said even by Cardinal O'Brien's standards his Easter sermon constituted a vehement and outspoken attack on secularism and what he described as the enemies of the Christian faith in Britain and the power they currently exert.

“Religion must not be taken from the public square”

The Cardinal called on Christians of all denominations to resist the efforts of such people to destroy Christian heritage and culture. In a reference to equality legislation preventing discrimination against homosexual people, Cardinal O'Brien denounced what he claimed was the way Christians had been prevented from acting in accordance with their beliefs because they refuse to endorse such lifestyles. The Cardinal said: "Perhaps more than ever before there is that 'aggressive secularism' and there are those who would indeed try to destroy our Christian heritage and culture and take God from the public square.

"Religion must not be taken from the public square.

"Recently, various Christians in our society were marginalised and prevented from acting in accordance with their beliefs because they were not willing to publicly endorse a particular lifestyle.

"Yes - Christians must work toward that full unity for which Christ prayed - but even at this present time Christians must be united in their common awareness of the enemies of the Christian faith in our country, of the power that they are at present exerting, and the need for us to be aware of that right to equality which so many others cry out for." Cardinal O'Brien reminded his congregation at St Mary's Cathedral in Edinburgh of the plea by the Pope that Christians of different denominations should rediscover their common ancestry to unite in resisting the sidelining of religion.

The Anglican archbishops of Canterbury and York, Dr Rowan Williams and Dr John Sentamu, were also delivering Easter messages on Sunday. The Catholic archbishop of Westminster, the Most Reverend Vincent Nichols, was speaking of his hopes for peace in conflict-hit countries such as Libya, Syria, Afghanistan and Ivory Coast.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13179851

[FS123]

I think the following hadith might be relevant:
Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “Beware of going to extremes (in religion), for those before you were only destroyed through excessiveness.” [An-Nasai]

Ibn Taymiya says regarding this hadith of the Prophet (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam), “His saying ‘Beware of going to extremes in religion’ is a general prohibition applying to all types of extremes, whether in beliefs or works.” [Fayd al-Qadir sharh al-Jami’ al-saghir]

It creates two potential problems in my opinion:
First, believers start to move away from actual teachings in the name of piety, which is difficult to differentiate from the true teaching for most people. Faulty teaching that looks pious might be taken as true religion after sometime and marginalize the religion in the mainstream. In Christianity it is different because they have concept of God that makes problem for lot of people just to highlight that although both things happened in Christianity. But in Islam issue could come similar to Judaism where is concept of God is not the main issue for decline.

Second, it can alienate the masses and cause backlash which is related to previous point. But once a trend starts it makes people bias even when some people start to realize true teaching and start to call back people, so it is difficult for majority to come back. Then it starts to create other problems like going into another extreme where religious people make the religion marginalized.

Just my opinion and there might be other factors behind that hadith.

[gmcbroom]

Secularism and to a degree religious tolerance do seem to be the key issues for the decline. After all if it becomes taboo to discuss ones faith in public then when one person or group sees another misrepresent the faith and their not allowed to refute it because it may offend then false doctrines start to pop up because they start to feel good or fair. Christians throughout the world seem to seek worldly acceptance rather than divine acceptance. Jesus warned us against that. He even said the wide gate leads to destruction and for christians to strive to go through the narrow gate though its harder. This luke warm christianity where different views and yes faiths are put on the same level as say christianity sadly may lead to destruction, thats assigning partners to God who has no partners as any muslim would tell you. For all christians should choose to be hot not luke warm. However, all is not lost; but it will take faith.

Peace be with you

[Ramadhan]

Christians throughout the world seem to seek worldly acceptance rather than divine acceptance.

This is not new. Your Saul of Tarsus started this by telling lies and saying Jesus (pbuh) abrogating moses laws for the gentiles in order to attract worldly acceptance. And the decline was sealed by the romans who preferred the type of christianity that appealed to their latin mythology.

[Getoffmyback]

There is nothing multicultural in the mid east when the church or mosque are in control of civil laws , simple example "civil marriage is not allowed". I only call it religious feudalism and it's not helping people in life actually it's complicating life .

You see people writing about the decline of their religion it's only a way to erect emotions of the followers in an attempt to recruit them in a struggle of regaining religious political powers. So you tell me that multiculturalism is in harmony in mid east countries well of course since politics and civil laws are controlled by religion. But it's not in harmony in england of course cos the religious feudalists want to control civil laws and politics .

[JPR]

Any religion in the western world is declining. True 100% muslims abiding to Islam law in the west are very very rare. I know a lot of people who claim to be muslims yet go out and drink and have sex just like anyone and when I tell them how they're breaking their own laws, the usual answer is "well I don't eat pork at least" because that's the easiest thing to do.

Of course the article will talk about Christianity, what else in the UK? Would anyone make that same article using Saudi Arabia as the country for the decline of Christianity? Trumble was right when he asked what will it bring to people interacting together? More hate, more peace? Better understanding?

[جوري]

Any religion in the western world is declining. True 100% muslims abiding to Islam law in the west are very very rare. I know a lot of people who claim to be muslims yet go out and drink and have sex just like anyone and when I tell them how they're breaking their own laws, the usual answer is "well I don't eat pork at least" because that's the easiest thing to do

That is just the company you keep.
Like the story of the two youths who set out to Lebanon each coming to speak of their travels to the scholar. The first says, Lebanon is a land of Debauchery, brothels and immoral women and the scholar said you speak the truth, the other youth, said my experience was the opposite, Lebanon is a land of knowledge, its people are pious its women are mothers and sisters and the scholar said you speak the truth, to which the first youth replied how can we both be correct? and the scholar said you've both found what you were looking for in Lebanon..

With that not only is your experience subjective it is also extremely negligible. There is 1.86 billion Muslims in the world, who are a very diverse bunch. Not everyone advertises that they're Muslim, and not only have you not encountered every Muslim, I'll go out on a limb and say the Muslims that you have encountered echo your own person. Since people do end up finding exactly what they seek!

and on a side note, Christianity is making a decline in all of Europe not just England. Google any country in Europe and look at its demographics and state religion you'll find a decline of 1% a year.. It is because Christianity doesn't make sense, not because of some evil secular plan!

best,

[جوري]

To demonstrate the point I made at the end of post # 30
random country 'Slovenia'

we find:

Like elsewhere in Europe, the affiliation to Roman Catholicism is dropping: in 1991, there were 71.6% self-declared Catholics, which means a drop of more than 1% annually.[101]

Source

[Getoffmyback]

@jpr religion is declining world wide. Untill now i don't blame religion whichever But i blame the whims of time and people.

[JPR]

With that not only is your experience subjective it is also extremely negligible. There is 1.86 billion Muslims in the world, who are a very diverse bunch. Not everyone advertises that they're Muslim, and not only have you not encountered every Muslim, I'll go out on a limb and say the Muslims that you have encountered echo your own person. Since people do end up finding exactly what they seek

No, I actually hang around christians who decided to live their faith according to the Bible. Those muslims I talked about are mostly either friends of friends I see once in a while or co-worker(s). My point was just that like christians everywhere, not all muslims are stellar exemplars of what their faith entails. Many muslims can put many christians to shame by their fervor and their keeping of Allah's commands, and many christians can do the same thing to many muslims. Just like many buddhists can do the same, etc...

In the west, the society and it's laws give everybody a chance to choose how they want to live their life and the answer from the great majority is a non-religious life, be it christian or muslim, you just can't escape that fact, no matter how or what you call yourself. I won't even begin to touch on the Middle-East.

P.S.: Don't go out on your limbs no more!

[جوري]

No, I actually hang around christians who decided to live their faith according to the Bible. Those muslims I talked about are mostly either friends of friends I see once in a while or co-worker(s). My point was just that like christians everywhere, not all muslims are stellar exemplars of what their faith entails. Many muslims can put many christians to shame by their fervor and their keeping of Allah's commands, and many christians can do the same thing to many muslims. Just like many buddhists can do the same, etc...

In the west, the society and it's laws give everybody a chance to choose how they want to live their life and the answer from the great majority is a non-religious life, be it christian or muslim, you just can't escape that fact, no matter how or what you call yourself. I won't even begin to touch on the Middle-East.

P.S.: Don't go out on your limbs no more!

How do you reconcile 'friends of friends' or co-workers with:

uslims abiding to Islam law in the west are very very rare

To know such intimate social details of folks you hardly hang with makes you one of two things and neither is flattering!
The law has nothing to do with self-governance.. a person who is shy is shy whether or not a gentleman's only club is right across the street and a street walker is a street walker even if she lives across from a convent.

Of course I'll go out on a limb.. being factual is always better than being subjective when entering a debate!

best,

[Zafran]

No, I actually hang around christians who decided to live their faith according to the Bible. Those muslims I talked about are mostly either friends of friends I see once in a while or co-worker(s). My point was just that like christians everywhere, not all muslims are stellar exemplars of what their faith entails. Many muslims can put many christians to shame by their fervor and their keeping of Allah's commands, and many christians can do the same thing to many muslims. Just like many buddhists can do the same, etc...

In the west, the society and it's laws give everybody a chance to choose how they want to live their life and the answer from the great majority is a non-religious life, be it christian or muslim, you just can't escape that fact, no matter how or what you call yourself. I won't even begin to touch on the Middle-East.

P.S.: Don't go out on your limbs no more!

Rule number 1 in any religion never talk about how religious you are - rule number 2 - dont Judge people - as your bible says

"1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." - Mattew 7

[YoungCatholic]

Yes, it is sad. The UK was once a very catholic nation, if it weren't for King Henry VIII this country would be mostly catholic today. Queen Mary, a.k.a Bloody Mary, is also partly responsible for Catholicism's downfall in the UK. She ordered the deaths of many protestants, thus putting the RCC in a bad light in the UK, and if it weren't for her, I'm sure Catholicism wouldn't be as dead as it is the UK today. It's something we catholics just have to pray for.

It must be glad knowing that you guys have the fastest growing religion...I'm so jealous :D Well, the good news for us catholics is that our religion continues to grow (19 million new catholics last year). And that's a good thing!

[Ramadhan]

Well, the good news for us catholics is that our religion continues to grow (19 million new catholics last year). And that's a good thing!

Yeah... you should thank the pope for banning contraceptives for that growth. How's catholicism doing in your country, the Philippines?

[YoungCatholic]

Yeah... you should thank the pope for banning contraceptives for that growth. How's catholicism doing in your country, the Philippines?

Well it is a catholic country, so of course it's doing great. Rural and Urban areas, churches are always packed during mass, some people even have to stand up. Processions are common and everything is just so...catholic. The RH bill isn't even gonna pass as it's causing too much controversy. I wish I could say the same for other countries though :)

And yes, we believe that human sexuality is sacred and should be used with the desire of procreation.

[Ramadhan]

And yes, we believe that human sexuality is sacred and should be used with the desire of procreation.

Based on this statement of yours, does this mean that christians are not supposed to have sex unless they want to have children?

[YoungCatholic]

Okay, maybe I should've been a little bit clearer.

Catholics are not allowed to use artificial means of birth control. That would be considered non-procreative. So, condoms, IUDs, birth control pills, are all not allowed. Oral sex is not forbidden by the Church. Married couples can have oral sex as long as it's used as foreplay, and as long as sex *ends* in the marital embrace. Catholics are allowed to space, delay (temorarily or permanently) having children, (with serious reasons, such as financial, medical, emotional, etc) by using natural family planning. That means, you learn signs of fertility and track them and not have sex during fertile times. This the church allows. Some people may think this is "non-procreative sex", but this is not true. And the reason why is not "non-procreative sex" is that you still have to be open to life. In other words, if you don't follow the signs of fertility correctly, or chance it because you can't control yourself, and you become pregnant, you have to accept that pregnancy.

That doesn't mean you have to intend to conceive every single time you have sex with your spouse. That means that when having sex with your spouse, you have to be open to life, and only use natural means to prevent pregnancy.

I hope that helped you out :)

[Ramadhan]

Okay, maybe I should've been a little bit clearer.

I see. So for catholics, human sexuality is not for procreation only, am I right? so does your previous statement still apply or what?:

And yes, we believe that human sexuality is sacred and should be used with the desire of procreation.

But then, this part confuses me:

Oral sex is not forbidden by the Church. Married couples can have oral sex as long as it's used as foreplay,

What if it does not end in intercourse? Does the pope still allow it, or is it sinful?
It just seems quite contradictory to me.

[Amigo]

Ok, I can help here...

According to Catholic Faith, it is a sin to have sex without being open to life (parenthood) and keep the bond forever (mariage)
Sex must be selfless not selfish basically.
For some people for some reasons, oral sex may help toward real sex (full natural communion), then and only then it is okay.
Anything that is toward selfishness is sinfull.

[Ramadhan]

According to Catholic Faith, it is a sin to have sex without being open to life (parenthood) and keep the bond forever (mariage) Sex must be selfless not selfish basically. For some people for some reasons, oral sex may help toward real sex (full natural communion), then and only then it is okay. Anything that is toward selfishness is sinfull.

So a married couple cannot even have sex just for the enjoyment in itself?
Because it is indeed selfish.

[YoungCatholic]

"Please note that oral sex and oral stimulation can be interchanged here. The point needs to be reemphasized:

Oral sex to climax for a man is a sin.

Oral sex to climax for a woman (without sexual intercourse with the husband finishing inside his wife) is a sin.

Oral sex forced on one or the other partner is a sin.

Oral sex used as foreplay in the marital act that is not degrading to either spouse and the act ends in the husbands ejaculation inside his wife's vagina is not a sin"

Q: if say they guy accidently ejaculates outside of the vagina, is he supposed to then transfer the semen and place it back into the vagina (making it then a procreative act)?

A: The act must be open to procreation, if a discharge takes place accidently outside the vagina the act was "open" to procreation because of the INTENT of the couple.


ON A SIDE NOTE:
Please, do not make fun of me. I honestly do not fully understand in this reasoning. I don't have a general idea of what intercourse is or foreplay (But I do know terms like ejaculation). I'm just getting answers that seem to answer your questions from catholic sources.

My thoughts in the most simplest form ever: Wasting sperm is considered a sin. As sperm equals sacred.

I really really hope this helped you out. Because I'm just getting random answers that seem to respond to your question as I do not understand your last question and the reasonings that I've posted fully (since I don't know some terms). And yes, I'm kind of like a pure-ish boy still, so yeah. Please understand :D

[YoungCatholic]

The Church doesn't say that the purpose of sex is only for procreation, but also for the bonding of husband and wife... as I used to say to my high school freshmen "for babies and bonding". Certainly there is pleasure that is involved in the sexual act, as there should be, between a husband and a wife. What the Church does say is that every sexual act must be open to life. Only engaging in oral sex would not be open to life, but using oral sex as a part of foreplay as long as the husband climaxes inside of his wife is perfectly fine (assuming of course, that the entire act is respectful to both people).

I second the recommendation of The Good News about Sex and Marriage by Christopher West or, as we used to call it in college "the purple book". I would recommend the other books mentioned, but I haven't read them (yet!). Though, I can say, that I've enjoyed everything I've read by Gregory Popkak.

[YoungCatholic]

^fogot to italicize and quote that. i need that message editor! :(

[Amigo]

So a married couple cannot even have sex just for the enjoyment in itself?
Because it is indeed selfish.

That's perversion, weaked, and vicious.
It's like eating for the simple purpose of the pleasure of food. Some people who do this go out, throw out, come back and eat again. Samething for people who practice sex just for pleasure. They eventually go to the bathroom and get rid of the seed (contraception/abortion), or hate each other if contraception failed...why because it was never about loving each other but about loving self...it was about using each other for self-pleasuring. Using other people as objects is sin since it violates their dignity. Sex is a reminder that people were meant as GIFT to each other not as SLAVE for each other. Redefining the Will of God is a sin and causes all those disorders and violence.

Pleasure is God's sign/gift indicating the goodness of the purpose of the act. Doing it just for pleasure is missing the memo or ignoring it. And this become ingratitude to His goodness.

[Amigo]

Sorry I meant 'wicked'...

[Riana17]

America has always been Secular also Christianity is dying because it is false.

indeed, it is the main reason

[Dagman]

actually Christianity's decline in the western world is for two main reasons. firstly we are increasingly more educated, and secondly we have complete freedom and are not forced or indoctrinated into religion.

believe me in 100 years there won't be any Muslims either. When you advance as a civilization you lose religion.

Also the amount of hatred for Christianity on this board is nonsensical. Christianity and Islam are very closely related.

[Who Am I?]

actually Christianity's decline in the western world is for two main reasons. firstly we are increasingly more educated, and secondly we have complete freedom and are not forced or indoctrinated into religion.

believe me in 100 years there won't be any Muslims either. When you advance as a civilization you lose religion.

Also the amount of hatred for Christianity on this board is nonsensical. Christianity and Islam are very closely related.

For the record, I don't hate Christians. If someone wants to be a Christian and it works for them, fine. It didn't work for me. I just know that the more I learn about Islam, the more it makes sense.

[جوري]

actually Christianity's decline in the western world is for two main reasons. firstly we are increasingly more educated, and secondly we have complete freedom and are not forced or indoctrinated into religion.

believe me in 100 years there won't be any Muslims either. When you advance as a civilization you lose religion.

Also the amount of hatred for Christianity on this board is nonsensical. Christianity and Islam are very closely related.

if the religion theme is about an immolating mangod then of course people outgrew that sometime during the middle ages.. I see no similarities between those who are idolaters and those who reason so that religion is satisfactory to both their heart and mind!
the rest of your rant we'll attribute to your inner child speaking..

best,

[Dagman]

For the record, I don't hate Christians. If someone wants to be a Christian and it works for them, fine. It didn't work for me. I just know that the more I learn about Islam, the more it makes sense.

Sorry but how does it make sense? Have you looked into the history of the foundations of Islam and its subsequent history? When studied objectively Islam makes absolutely no sense. Further, no rational person willingly accepts theistic views (the view that god is directly involved in their life). It's just utterly nonsensical.

[جوري]

Sorry but how does it make sense? Have you looked into the history of the foundations of Islam and its subsequent history? When studied objectively Islam makes absolutely no sense. Further, no rational person willingly accepts theistic views (the view that god is directly involved in their life). It's just utterly nonsensical.

Are you read on history?
further, most rational people accept theistic view, given that less than 10% of the population is atheistic and studies have shown that man's inclination is toward theism..
why don't you do a little research before you write?

[Dagman]

if the religion theme is about an immolating mangod then of course people outgrew that sometime during the middle ages.. I see no similarities between those who are idolaters and those who reason so that religion is satisfactory to both their heart and mind!
the rest of your rant we'll attribute to your inner child speaking..

best,

ok... so what about a man who uses a religion largely plagiarized from Christianity to unite tribes on the Arabic peninsula to forcibly conquer a city because he was banished from it? That sounds so much more convincing.

[Who Am I?]

Sorry but how does it make sense? Have you looked into the history of the foundations of Islam and its subsequent history? When studied objectively Islam makes absolutely no sense. Further, no rational person willingly accepts theistic views (the view that god is directly involved in their life). It's just utterly nonsensical.

So the universe is just a cosmic accident? There's too much order in it for that to be the case. I used to be an atheist and it was by studying astronomy and biology that I realized that there is a God.

Or else this is all just a cosmic joke and we're royally screwed either way.

[جوري]

ok... so what about a man who uses a religion largely plagiarized from Christianity to unite tribes on the Arabic peninsula to forcibly conquer a city because he was banished from it? That sounds so much more convincing.

Why not prove it?

give us chapter by chapter and show us the plagiarism and name some names in Arabia so fluent in Greek and Arabic tongue as to give us the Quran translated into its transcendent style covering all the aspects it covers and where Christianity completely fails the test of logic and surpasses to modern day, in the poetic style of the Quran, and at the same time give us two different style texts that being the hadith and the Quran from the same person..

put up or shut up how about it?

[Dagman]

Are you read on history?
further, most rational people accept theistic view, given that less than 10% of the population is atheistic and studies have shown that man's inclination is toward theism..
why don't you do a little research before you write?

your logic is severely lacking.

The world population includes hundreds of millions of people in compete poverty. You think they have any critical ability to think about religion? get over yourself.

Among educated countries Atheism is way more than 10%.

[Dagman]

Why not prove it?

give us chapter by chapter and show us the plagiarism and name some names in Arabia so fluent in Greek and Arabic tongue as to give us the Quran translated into its transcendent style covering all the aspects it covers and where Christianity completely fails the test of logic and surpasses to modern day, in the poetic style of the Quran, and at the same time give us two different style texts that being the hadith and the Quran from the same person..

put up or shut up how about it?

wait. first acknowledge that Mohammad had ulterior motives to create a religion. or do you deny that he united tribes on the arabic peninsula and fought a war against the city of mecca so that he could control it.

[جوري]

your logic is severely lacking.

The world population includes hundreds of millions of people in compete poverty. You think they have any critical ability to think about religion? get over yourself.

Among educated countries Atheism is way more than 10%.

I don't think you understand how logic works.. btw more scientific research comes out of Iran than the western world, if we are to go by your use of logic or lack thereof as a measure of reason. Educated people in your neck of the wood are usually from Asia or middle eastern countries check their names out sometimes..

Thanks for the guffaw otherwise, I'd request you take your own advise but I don't think anyone thinks much of you or what you write to care..

best

[جوري]

wait. first acknowledge that Mohammad had ulterior motives to create a religion. or do you deny that he united tribes on the arabic peninsula and fought a war against the city of mecca so that he could control it.

I don't acknowledge the faulty premises of under-educated trolls!

best

[Dagman]

I don't think you understand how logic works.. btw more scientific research comes out of Iran than the western world, if we are to go by your use of logic or lack thereof as a measure of reason. Educated people in your neck of the wood are usually from Asian or middle eastern countries check it out sometimes!

Thanks for the guffaw otherwise, I'd request you take your own advise but I don't think anyone thinks much of you or what you write to care..

best

logic means reasoning. you're reasoning was flawed. statistics need to be put into context before they can be useful at all, you failed to do so. understand now?

and what you said could not be more false about Iran and science. Just utterly wrong. My father is a biochemist with 5 degrees and I study biology at university. I think I know more than you do on the topic. You also conveniently failed to show any proof for your statement.

And the racial remark is also completely false. once again nothing to prove it. I bet you haven't even been to my country, let alone know about it's scientific community.

Do you just spew off nonsense to get rational people to leave this forum?

[Dagman]

I don't acknowledge the faulty premises of under-educated trolls!

best

you deny the conquest of Mecca?

wow. I really pity people like you. You never had a chance to think for yourself.

[جوري]

logic means reasoning. you're reasoning was flawed. statistics need to be put into context before they can be useful at all, you failed to do so. understand now?

and what you said could not be more false about Iran and science. Just utterly wrong. My father is a biochemist with 5 degrees and I study biology at university. I think I know more than you do on the topic. You also conveniently failed to show any proof for your statement.

And the racial remark is also completely false. once again nothing to prove it. I bet you haven't even been to my country, let alone know about it's scientific community.

Do you just spew off nonsense to get rational people to leave this forum?

I have been looking for some sedative and I must thank you for managing to make me stifle a yawn..

here is a good read:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...y-country.html

and here is another!

Middle Eastern immigrants were highly educated, with 49 percent holding at least a bachelor's degree, compared to 28 percent of natives.

Median earnings for Middle Eastern men were $39,000 a year compared to $38,000 for native workers.

they tend to be better-educated than native U.S. residents — about half hold bachelor's degrees, compared to 28 percent of natives. They also perform as well economically as natives — 30- and 40-year-old Middle Eastern males with a college education have the same median income as natives, and Middle East immigrants are more likely be self-employed.




Middle Eastern Immigrants in U.S. Educated, Prosperous, Study Says
Gannett News Service, August 15, 2002

(Also ran in Arizona Republic - 8/15)

WASHINGTON — Middle Eastern immigrants in the United States are well educated, earn more money than most Americans and are predominantly Muslim, according to a report released Wednesday.

They also are among the nation's fastest-growing immigrant groups, according to the report issued by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, a think tank that supports reducing the number of immigrants to the United States.

The report says the number of Middle Eastern immigrants increased from fewer than 200,000 in 1970 to almost 1.5 million in 2000. The overall number of foreign-born residents in the United States tripled to 31 million over the same period.

The report offers a rare portrait of an immigrant group that has received intense scrutiny and negative publicity since the Sept. 11 attacks.
Project MAPS, a survey of "Muslims in the American Public Square" conducted in 2001-2002 by researchers at Georgetown University, found that 86 percent of all Muslim professionals were concentrated in three careers: engineering, computer science, and medicine. Law, law enforcement, and politics accounted for a minuscule 0.6 percent. American Muslims, some demographers say, have also been voting well below their numbers in the population -- registering to vote at only half the national rate, according to the 2001 American Religious Identification Survey [PDF], a project of the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. "If they ever did play to their weight" in the electoral arena and in Washington, Muslims "would be a much more considerable force in public policy-making," says Steve Clemons, a Democrat who directs the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation in Washington.

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/p...ab_America.pdf
http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/mideastcoverage.html

Thanks for sharing your credentials btw we're all so humbled and impressed!


best,

[Dagman]

I have been looking for some sedative and I must thank you for managing to make me stifle a yawn..

here is a good read:

and here is another!



Thanks for sharing your credentials btw we're all so humbled and impressed!


best,

Can you read? the article says that Iran's scientific is GROWING the fastest in the world. that doesn't mean that more Scientifc research comes from Iran than the western world. Also as My dad would tell you putting out papers, and the quality of research are two completely different things.

and I don't live in America. Nice try, but complete fail. try again.

[Dagman]

So the universe is just a cosmic accident? There's too much order in it for that to be the case. I used to be an atheist and it was by studying astronomy and biology that I realized that there is a God.

Or else this is all just a cosmic joke and we're royally screwed either way.

I'm an agnostic actually so my answer would be humanity doesn't understand that presently. I think it's arrogant just to say it must have been a God who created us and say it with certainty.

[al yunan]

I'm an agnostic actually so my answer would be humanity doesn't understand that presently. I think it's arrogant just to say it must have been a God who created us and say it with certainty.

First you where rude to my sister, for that I will hound you where ever you surface.
Oh I forgot you're Persian and that misoginy and total lack of decorum comes natural to you, still no excuse.
Amazing just arrived and already burned you bridges a true Persian son of Darius maker of enemies and foes.
You're a marked man already, best to sound the retreat, leave in reverse another traditional Persian custom @ss first.

[Dagman]

did you read our conversation? she was frequently rude to me and all I did was rebuke her arguments. if she says something wrong to me I will correct it. I know you have a problem with intellectual honesty.

incorrect/meaningless things she stated as fact:
-atheists are less than 10% of the world population
-Iran produces more scientific research than the entire western world
-I'm american
-My views on the future of all religions and my agnosticism are childish.
-I'm under-educated.

She just kept saying incorrect or meaningless things and attempted to use them to prove her position.

And I'm not Persian. Not even close. How about you have an open mind and look into other possibilities of the world instead of being hostile to me from the beginning because you have been taught to hate non-Muslims.

[جوري]

First you where rude to my sister, for that I will hound you where ever you surface.
Oh I forgot you're Persian and that misoginy and total lack of decorum comes natural to you, still no excuse.
Amazing just arrived and already burned you bridges a true Persian son of Darius maker of enemies and foes.
You're a marked man already, best to sound the retreat, leave in reverse another traditional Persian custom @ss first.

Ah akhi, first of all aslamu 'Alykoum wr wb..

you almost impart a human quality on a troll by replying to it. I realized ten seconds into this charade, that it is a complete waste of my time.. we don't quell every dog that barks, especially so when he's an untrained pup who creates an imaginary figure to reach to when desiring to cement an ailing view 'my father will tell you' .. even stating the obvious is a descent down, but I wanted to take the opportunity to thank you for being so chivalrous.. I appreciate to learn that when truly merited perhaps on a battle scene (lyes alghad 3anna be'ba3eed' that you'd be a true brother to me..

:w:

[سيف الله]

Salaam

actually Christianity's decline in the western world is for two main reasons. firstly we are increasingly more educated, and secondly we have complete freedom and are not forced or indoctrinated into religion.

believe me in 100 years there won't be any Muslims either. When you advance as a civilization you lose religion.

Also the amount of hatred for Christianity on this board is nonsensical. Christianity and Islam are very closely related.

Shows how little you understand society develop over the years.

Cant believe people still peddle this line. Shallow to say the least.

[al yunan]

but I wanted to take the opportunity to thank you for being so chivalrous.

Assalamu Alaikum sister,

Chivalrous you say, that entails visions of knights. :embarrass
Where as here the only vision and blurred at that is a later day Don Quixote more decrepit and perhaps even more deluded for instead of a mule he rides an old arm chair and his windmill is an Internet troll.
But thanks anyway old guys like to hear stuff like that. :D
As I'm new, only a few months on the net I don't quite know all these terms, for one troll all I know is my instincts told me he is bad news. :heated: :Evil:
I know my behaviour was not, at all Islamic, but my knight's oath from my pre-Islam era got the better of me. :p
So, Me' Lady known as Lily of the Vale, I bid thee fair well and I returneth to my own lands yonder. :statisfie

Masalam

[Who Am I?]

I missed all of the action last night. Oh well. I had to get my sleep... :embarrass

[Zafran]

salaam

I missed it as well - oh well.

peace

[جوري]

it is all there believe me you haven't missed much..
btw what happened to the other colors of the forum.. it used to be orange skinned for me I forgot the name of that skin.. looks so sharp now not sure I like it :(

[Woodrow]

it is all there believe me you haven't missed much..
btw what happened to the other colors of the forum.. it used to be orange skinned for me I forgot the name of that skin.. looks so sharp now not sure I like it :(

:sl:

I have not been here very often for the past couple of weeks. The change came as a surprise to me also. I am not quite able to explain the reason for the change ad I am not all that up to date on the programming, but from the little I do understand it was something needed to keep the forum functioning smoothly.