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JPR
04-24-2011, 10:06 PM
This thread is aimed to the muslims hanging out in this area of the forum more than to the christians. Although, anyone is welcome to post/comment if you feel like it's touching you.

I realized that there although muslims should follow the guidance of other prophets as messengers of God, there isn't much of their messages in the Qu'ran so I decided to quote a couple of passages from the Gospel. These are teachings of Jesus and I'm sure that, even though muslims claim it has been corrupted in the Bible, everyone of us will agree that these quotes were inspired and that we can all take a couple of pointers from one or two of them.

I hope everyone enjoys them!

Love for Enemies
43 You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


The Greatest Commandment
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, Of all the commandments, which is the most important? 29 The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'

Fasting
16 When you fast, do not look sombre as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Giving to the Needy
1 Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honoured by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Ask, Seek, Knock
7 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

I took them in different books and in no particular orders. I post these only to seek if you think these words could have been uttered by Jesus and if it is contrary to what is in the Qu'ran or if it is in line with what you believe/know.

Again, please, no theological discussion that will go nowhere. Just let us all know if you like or dislike a particular quote or if anything rings a bell or can be compared to a particular verse from the Qu'ran.

Cheers to all who will participate!:shade:
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Woodrow
04-24-2011, 10:49 PM
Peace,

Many of us are former Christians and most of us will tell you we came to Islam because of the words of Isa(as). We do feel that the Bible through the words of Isa(as) set us on the path to find Islam.

We do agree that Isa(as) only spoke the Truth and what he has said did come from Allaah(swt)

The only problem, is we only have interpretations of what Isa(as) actually said. No Aramaic writings exist of what he actually said in Aramaic. The oldest Aramaic Bible is the Syriac Peshetta and that was translated into Aramaic from Greek. Interpretations may be very close to the actual words, but we will never know without the original.

You will find many Muslims do have copies of the Bible and we do agree with that which does not contradict the Quran. You may notice that very few if any Muslims would ever desecrate or damage the Bible, because we know it may contain some actual words of Allaah(swt) in it.
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Zafran
04-24-2011, 11:08 PM
salaam

we agree with those passages as those teachings were the same teachings of the prophet Muhammad pbuh

The bible you speak of isnt just disputed by muslims but even you christains cant seem to agree what books make up the bible? - does it contain 66 books or 73?

In tradition there are 5 books that were given to Moses pbuh known as the Torah but we find Moses pbuh death and unmarked grave being mentioned in one of the 5 books (specifically deutornomy) - who added this after Moses's (pbuh) death if the books were given to him when he was alive?
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siam
04-25-2011, 12:46 AM
from the Quran...............
charity
Surah 2 verses 268-271
268 satan threatens you with proverty and bids you conduct unseemly. God promises you his forgiveness and bounties. And God cares for all and he knows all things.
269 He grants wisdom to whom he pleases, and to whom wisdom is granted, he recieves a benefit overflowing, but none will recieve admonition except men of understanding
270 And whatever you spend in charity or whatever promises you make, be sure God knows it all. But the wrongdoers have no helpers.
271 If you disclose acts of charity it is ok, but if you conceal them and make it reach those in need, that is best for you: it will remove some of your stains and God is well acqainted with what you do.

those who hate you
Surah 41 verse 34-36
34 Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Repel (evil) with what is better; then between whom was hatred. become as it were friends and intimates.
35 And no one will be granted such goodness except those who excercise patience and self-restraint--none but the persons of greatest good fortune.
36 And if (at any time) an incitement to discord is made to you by satan, seek refuge in God. He is the one who hears and knows all things.

God
Surah 2 verses 255-256
255 God. there is no God but he
The living, the self-subsisting, the supporter of all. No slumber can seize him, nor sleep. His are all thngs in the heavens and the earth. Who is he can intercede in his presence except as he permits? He knows what is before, or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass any of his knowledge except as he wills His throne does extend over the heavens and the earth and he feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. For he is the most high, the supreme.
256. let their be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error. Whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most trusted handhold, that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.
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JPR
04-25-2011, 01:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by siam
those who hate you
Surah 41 verse 34-36
34 Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Repel (evil) with what is better; then between whom was hatred. become as it were friends and intimates.
35 And no one will be granted such goodness except those who excercise patience and self-restraint--none but the persons of greatest good fortune.
36 And if (at any time) an incitement to discord is made to you by satan, seek refuge in God. He is the one who hears and knows all things.
Nice, I think some extremists should be shown this verse instead of giving muslims a bad name in the press.

Thanks Siam for these Surahs.
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Woodrow
04-25-2011, 01:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
Nice, I think some extremists should be shown this verse instead of giving muslims a bad name in the press.

Thanks Siam for these Surahs.
Those are not extremists, those are they who still have much to learn. Islam is a very large religion with over 1 billion followers. If only 1/10th of 1 percent of those using the name of Muslim are not following Islam properly it means we have 1,000,000 people running around blindly saying they are following Islam and they are not.
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Ramadhan
04-25-2011, 03:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
Nice, I think some extremists should be shown this verse instead of giving muslims a bad name in the press.

Also, we need to define what is meant by "extremists"?
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JPR
04-25-2011, 04:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Also, we need to define what is meant by "extremists"?
The ones saying they follow "Islam" and are not very nice to anyone who's not a muslim. You know, people who use the Qu'ran to justify their acts of violence. But that's beyond the point of the post.

Anyone else would like to comment on the quotes I posted?
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Ramadhan
04-25-2011, 05:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
in jewish scripture, the word "echad" is used, which means a single, absolute unqualified one.
This is definitely the truth, as Allah SWT also says in the Qur'an (QS. 112:1)

Transliteration
Qul huwa Allahu ahad
Pickthall
Say: He is Allah, the One!

So the verse (Deuteronomy 6:4) is part of Torah that still survives the corruption.

It is mindboggling, though, how christians creatively interpret The Lord is One into Lord is The father, the son and the holy spirit, especially since Jesus (p) in the bible repeatedly told his disciples to worship the One God, and never told his disciples to worship the father, himself and holy spirit.


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Tyrion
04-25-2011, 06:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
It is mindboggling, though, how christians creatively interpret The Lord is One into Lord is The father, the son and the holy spirit, especially since Jesus (p) in the bible repeatedly told his disciples to worship the One God, and never told his disciples to worship the father, himself and holy spirit.
Must you always attack Christianity? The OP was just talking about some nice verses in the Bible...
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almannai
04-25-2011, 07:07 AM
Wa Alaikum Salam

Good info
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Ramadhan
04-25-2011, 07:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
Fasting 16 When you fast, do not look sombre as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

I agree. this is also one of Injeel verses that is not yet so much corrupted, as confirmed by Qur'an:

"O you who believe, fasting has been prescribed for you as it has been prescribed for those before you, so that you may attain taqwa."
[QS 2:183]

Also, from hadith Qudsi that supports the above verses that fasting is only for Allah and we must not show it off:

“Allah said, ‘All the deeds of the son of Adam are for him: the good deeds will be multiplied ten times to seven hundred time, except fasting, which is for Me and I will reward for it accordingly. He abandons his (sexual) desire, food and drink for Me.’ Verily, there are two joyous and pleasurable moments for the fasting person: one at the time of breaking his fast, and the other is when he will meet his Lord (in the Hereafter). Verily, the unpleasant odor emanating from the mouth of the fasting person is better in the sight of Allah than the scent of musk.”
[Al-Bukhari & Muslim].


Whoever does not give up lying and practising falsehood, Allah is in no need of his giving up food and drink. [Al-Bukhari and others]

From the gospel verses (Matthew 6:16-17), it is inferred that the fasting done by Jesus (pbuh) and his followers was not merely abstaining from certain type of food or desires. And it is clearly not just abstaining from drinking sweet tea, or meat like current christian practices, because not drinking sweet tea or eating meat alone do not make you lethargic. It is clear that the fasting practiced by Jesus (pbuh) and Moses (pbuh) was similar to the fastings of muslims (no drinking, no food, no sexual acts).
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Ramadhan
04-25-2011, 07:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Must you always attack Christianity? The OP was just talking about some nice verses in the Bible...
I am sure you will have many many productive contributions to make, at the very least in this thread.
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Tyrion
04-25-2011, 07:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
I am sure you will have many many productive contributions to make, at the very least in this thread.
I sure hope so. I think me calling you out on your attempt to derail the thread with unnecessary remarks on Christianity was a good start. :D
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Ramadhan
04-25-2011, 07:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbour as yourself

QS 4:36

And serve Allah. Ascribe no thing as partner unto Him. (Show) kindness unto parents, and unto near kindred, and orphans, and the needy, and unto the neighbour who is of kin (unto you) and the neighbour who is not of kin, and the fellow-traveller and the wayfarer and whom your right hands possess. Lo! Allah loveth not such as are proud and boastful,
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Ramadhan
04-25-2011, 07:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
I sure hope so. I think me calling you out on your attempt to derail the thread with unnecessary remarks on Christianity was a good start.
I cannot wait ....
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abjad
04-25-2011, 09:07 AM
Cheers to all who will participate!:shade:[/QUOTE]


(2:255) Allah: the Everlasting, the Sustainer of the whole Universe; there is no god but He. *278 He does neither slumber nor sleep. *279


*279. This is a refutation of the ideas of those who, in formulating their concepts of God, are inclined to consider God analogous to their own imperfect selves and hence ascribe to God the weaknesses characteristic of human beings. An instance at hand is the famous Biblical statement that God created the heavens and the earth in six days and on the seventh day He rested (see Genesis, chapters 1 and 2).


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...-2&version=NIV
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gmcbroom
04-25-2011, 08:24 PM
Here's one or two. Jesus is speaking to 2 different sects of jews around at the time.

First the Sadducees concerning the resurrection and a woman married 7 times; as they didn't believe in it since they only follow the first five books of Moses.
Matthew 22 (28-32)

Now at the resurrection, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they had all been married to her. Jesus said to them in reply," You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God." At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven. And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God. I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the god of the dead but of the living.

Second the Pharisees who believe in the resurrection and pride themselves on knowing all the Law all 613 of them. So Jesus asks them a question.

Matthew 22 (42-46)
Jesus questioned them saying,"What is your opinion about the Messiah?" Whose son is he?" They replied,"David's." He said to them,"How, then, does David, inspired by the Spirit, call him 'lord,' saying: The Lord said to my lord, "Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet"? If David calls him 'lord, how can he be his son?" No one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare to ask him anymore questions.



Peace be with you
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Hiroshi
04-26-2011, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by hodi


An instance at hand is the famous Biblical statement that God created the heavens and the earth in six days and on the seventh day He rested (see Genesis, chapters 1 and 2).

God created the heavens and the earth "in the beginning" (Genesis 1:1) before the six days began.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...:1&version=NIV
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Hiroshi
04-26-2011, 03:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran


The bible you speak of isnt just disputed by muslims but even you christains cant seem to agree what books make up the bible? - does it contain 66 books or 73?

66

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran




In tradition there are 5 books that were given to Moses pbuh known as the Torah but we find Moses pbuh death and unmarked grave being mentioned in one of the 5 books (specifically deutornomy) - who added this after Moses's (pbuh) death if the books were given to him when he was alive?
The final 8 verses of the book of Deuteronomy speak of Moses' death. These closing verses were believed to be most likely written by Joshua or by Eleazar the high priest.
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Zafran
04-26-2011, 03:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
66



The final 8 verses of the book of Deuteronomy speak of Moses' death. These closing verses were believed to be most likely written by Joshua or by Eleazar the high priest.
thanks you nailed it - the catholics who were protectors of christianity clearly got it wrong with the bible when they have 73 books - why did they mess with the bible - it took them to the 16th century reformation to get it right? awfully long time.

Indeed the last verses of deuteronomy have been added God knows what else has been added and taken out.

These are clear problems.
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Zafran
04-26-2011, 03:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
God created the heavens and the earth "in the beginning" (Genesis 1:1) before the six days began.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...:1&version=NIV
The rested part is the problem here (very famous).
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JPR
04-26-2011, 06:05 PM
As I see this post derailing a bit, I'll post two more quotes for everyone to enjoy. The first is the adulterous woman:

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered round him, and he sat down to teach them.
3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group
4 and said to Jesus, 'Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.
5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?'
6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.
7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, 'Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.'
8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, 'Woman,1 where are they? Has no-one condemned you?'
11 'No-one, sir,' she said. 'Then neither do I condemn you,' Jesus declared. 'Go now and leave your life of sin.'

Interestingly enough, I've seen the part where Jesus writes down on the ground paired with Daniel 5:5, Jeremiah 17:13, or as an equivalent of the following statement: "I'm the one who has written the Law and you're trying to trap me?!" Just thought it was some interesting information to pass along.

Second passage is when Jesus started preaching:

1 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them. He said:
3 'Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 'Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
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Hiroshi
04-26-2011, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JPR

2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered round him, and he sat down to teach them.
3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group
4and said to Jesus, 'Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.
5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?'
6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.
7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, 'Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.'
8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
10Jesus straightened up and asked her, 'Woman,1 where are they? Has no-one condemned you?'
11'No-one, sir,' she said. 'Then neither do I condemn you,' Jesus declared. 'Go now and leave your life of sin.'
Yes, that one was corrupted alright. It shouldn't appear as part of John's gospel.
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gmcbroom
04-26-2011, 08:24 PM
Actually the if you'd like to get technical the Council of Rome in 382AD, under Pope Damascus set the canon at 73 books. It's been the same ever since with various catholic church councils repeating the same 73 book canon over the centuries.

In the 1500's Martin Luther a catholic monk disagreed with the Old Testament canon and moved the books around to different areas due to it conflicting with his beliefs. But the worst part was when he added to it under his own authority the word,"alone." Specifically, in Romans 3:20, 3:28, and 4:15. He did this to support his view of ,"justification."

As for why there are only 66 books in the reformation canon that has more to do with money than anything else. It was expensive to make a book back then so if you follow Martin Luther and need to save money it is far more cost effective to reduce the number of books in the Old Testament that Luther didn't like anyway if your a publisher. Sadly, the end result is that the reformation churches don't get access to all the books that could help explain to them why the Catholic Church believes as it does (ie purgatory, saints, etc).

As for the Orthodox Canon having more I can't say why they do just that they do, anywhere from 76 to 88 depending on which Orthodox Church you belong to.

I just wanted to point this out to show that the Catholic Church Canon has been the same a very long time.
Peace be with you.
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Hiroshi
04-26-2011, 08:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
The rested part is the problem here (very famous).
Just so long as you don't go away with the idea that the Bible says that the universe was created in six days.

John 5:16-17 says: "For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working."

Obviously with reference to the seventh day, the Sabbath, Jesus tells us that God has continued to work without letup. God does not need to rest as if he could grow weary. But from the beginning of the seventh day God has found it an appropriate time to cease from creating new things for a while. Nevertheless God has been active with other work.
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Ramadhan
04-27-2011, 01:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
God does not need to rest
we agree.
However, the bible says God rested.

format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered round him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, 'Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?' 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, 'Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.' 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, 'Woman,1 where are they? Has no-one condemned you?' 11'No-one, sir,' she said. 'Then neither do I condemn you,' Jesus declared. 'Go now and leave your life of sin.'
Even christian scholars say this part is corrupted.
You need to ask the scribes who thought it was okay to put words in Jesus' mouth.
You believe that Jesus (pbuh) is God, right?
Do you think it is ok to lie and attribute words and actions to God, things that he didnt do?
if it is not ok, then why do people still follow the liars and not follow the true message and teachings of God?
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gmcbroom
04-27-2011, 03:07 AM
Which scholar and what is the evidence it was corrupted? Or a better question. If it is corrupted then why would the Koran point to the Bible for verification as it clearly does ? That would throw doubt at the Koran as well which would be counter productive.

Peace be with you
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Ramadhan
04-27-2011, 04:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
Which scholar and what is the evidence it was corrupted?
I am surprised you didnt know this very well-known fact:
The part of John 8 about the sinner and Jesus (pbuh) not upholding the law was NOWHERE to be found in all oldest bible manuscripts from the 3rd and 4th centuries.

Did you not find it mindboggling that one of the most beloved bible stories by christians was actually fabricated?
The story is especially loved by christians who are so fond of sinning, using it as examples that sinning is ok and shouldnt be punished. Hence the downward spiral of christianity.

Just in case you dont know your bible, you may want to read other corruptions and fabrications in the bible here:

http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jes...tt_at_ep_dpt_1
http://www.amazon.com/Forged-Writing...tt_at_ep_dpt_2
http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Scripture...tt_at_ep_dpt_4
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interrup...tt_at_ep_dpt_3

It's a very good investement of time and money, as it may help your well being in this world and hereafter.
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gmcbroom
04-27-2011, 04:58 AM
Naidamar,
Interesting links with some good points even. Still, the fact that those books are all written by the same author would seem to make it one man's opinion. Highly educated though he clearly is this subject is nothing new. The scriptures have been attacked for centuries. This is just illustrates why the Evangelicals and other Bible Only Christians have a hard to dealing with what textual scholars such as Dr. Ehrman find or don't find as they put all their faith in the scriptures alone to guide them. This isn't so much the case with the Catholic and Orthodox churches as we are guided through Apostolic Succession and Sacred Tradition as well as the Sacred Scriptures. If anything this should illustrate why those Christians who aren't Catholic should come home to,"The Church."

Peace be with you
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Ramadhan
04-27-2011, 06:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
Interesting links with some good points even. Still, the fact that those books are all written by the same author would seem to make it one man's opinion. Highly educated though he clearly is this subject is nothing new. The scriptures have been attacked for centuries. This is just illustrates why the Evangelicals and other Bible Only Christians have a hard to dealing with what textual scholars such as Dr. Ehrman find or don't find as they put all their faith in the scriptures alone to guide them. This isn't so much the case with the Catholic and Orthodox churches as we are guided through Apostolic Succession and Sacred Tradition as well as the Sacred Scriptures. If anything this should illustrate why those Christians who aren't Catholic should come home to,"The Church."

It's not just DR. Ehrman. Did you not read what I wrote:

I am surprised you didnt know this very well-known fact:
The part of John 8 about the sinner and Jesus (pbuh) not upholding the law was NOWHERE to be found in all oldest bible manuscripts from the 3rd and 4th centuries.
You can ask your pastor, or you can ask your pope if you dont believe me.

Of course the subject is not new, christian pastors and popes and priests, etc have known long ago about this fact and they kept burying their head in the sand and follow their whims and desires instead of actually following Jesus (pbuh), what is mindboggling is that those same people who claim to follow Jesus (pbuh) actually do not mind that scribes fabricated stories and falsely attributed it to Jesus (pbuh).

And then you said that catholic church is guided by apostolic succession and sacred tradition. Is the following an example of such apostolic succession and sacred tradition:

1. Pope Alexander VI (1431 – 1503)



The reward for “Baddest Pope Ever” arguably goes to Rodrigo Borgia, who enjoyed the benefits of having an uncle who just happened to be Pope Calixtus III. Thanks to his convenient social status, Borgia passed through the ranks of bishop, cardinal, and vice-chancellor, gaining enormous wealth along the way. In 1492, he was actually able to buy his way into the papacy, defeating two other opponents by means of bribery.
Alexander was so corrupt that his surname eventually became a byword representing the hellishly low papal standards of the time. He sired at least seven different illegitimate children by his mistresses, and didn’t hesitate to reward them with handsome endowments at the church’s expense. When low on finances, he either established new cardinals in return for payments, or he slammed wealthy people with completely fabricated charges, jailed or murdered them for said false charges, and then stole their money.
Not surprisingly, there is very little about Alexander VI that can be considered godly or even lawful. His goals were selfish and ambitious, and the orderly government he initially administered quickly deteriorated until the city of Rome was in a state of complete disrepair. The words spoken by Giovanni de Medici (the future Pope Leo X) after Borgia’s election are telling:
“Now we are in the power of a wolf, the most rapacious perhaps that this world has ever seen. And if we do not flee, he will inevitably devour us all.”



Reply

Hiroshi
04-27-2011, 06:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar


The part of John 8 about the sinner and Jesus (pbuh) not upholding the law was NOWHERE to be found in all oldest bible manuscripts from the 3rd and 4th centuries.

I agree. See my post #24.
Reply

Hiroshi
04-27-2011, 06:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

we agree.
However, the bible says God rested.
Please note the context of what I said: "God does not need to rest as if he could grow weary." But there was another reason for God to rest from his creative works. Everything that God had created was sufficient for the time being. The seventh "day of rest" is many thousands of years long and has not ended yet. By the time it has ended all evil-doers will be dealt with and peace and paradise will be restored. Then it will be time for God to create new things. I am hoping that the dinosaurs will come back. Perhaps they were wiped out in Noah's flood.
Reply

Hiroshi
04-27-2011, 08:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

thanks you nailed it - the catholics who were protectors of christianity clearly got it wrong with the bible when they have 73 books - why did they mess with the bible - it took them to the 16th century reformation to get it right? awfully long time.
It may be because certain things that were written in those extra books, commonly called the Apocrypha, seemed to support catholic teachings. So they didn't want to reject them.

But there are many foolish superstitions, inaccuracies and falsehoods in the Apocrypha. The only Apocryphal books of real value are perhaps 1 and 2 Maccabees which contain good historical information. But they are not, and do not claim to be, inspired by God. And never do the NT writers quote from the Apocrypha.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

Indeed the last verses of deuteronomy have been added God knows what else has been added and taken out.

These are clear problems.
I don't see why there are problems. A number of books in the Bible are the combination of more than one writer. And I have read commentary that says that the words in the Qur'an: "So Blessed be Allah the Best of Creators" (Surah 23:14) were spoken, not by Muhammad, but by a man called Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh.
Reply

Woodrow
04-27-2011, 09:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi


I don't see why there are problems. A number of books in the Bible are the combination of more than one writer. And I have read commentary that says that the words in the Qur'an: "So Blessed be Allah the Best of Creators" (Surah 23:14) were spoken, not by Muhammad, but by a man called Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh.
Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh. was a man who it appears sort of flip flopped between Islam and apostacy. At the time he made his claim he had aposted to the Quayish.

If I understand correctly he was a scribe during the Medinah era but Surah 23 was revealed during the Makkah era. When Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh. apostated he made his claim of having changed the words. But that does not seem possible as 42 other scribes had already written copied 23:14 as it stands today and that was prior to Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh. being a scribe.

This rather lengthy but perhaps it will explain:

Abdullah Ibn Sad Ibn Abi Sarh: Where Is the Truth?

Muhammad Ghoniem & M S M Saifullah

© Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance:

This article is meant to answer the claims put forward by the Christian missionaries.

The author of that article claims that cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh, one of the scribes of the Prophet Muhammad(P), has contributed to the Qur'ânic text. Let us examine the references used by the author to support his claims and sort out his arguments in the light of famous Islamic resources.

The author of the criticism says:

Sarh left Islam and lived in Mecca. Some time later, Muhammad and his army moved on Mecca and took it without a fight.

Then in the passage quoted from the translation of Sîrat Rasulillah, he went on saying about Ibn Abî Sarh:

then he apostatized and returned to Quraysh [Mecca]

He also reported from al-Baidawî commenting on the the verse 6:93 that the reason that triggered apostasy of cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh was the revelation of the verse 23:12. The following is the translation of Baidawî's report proposed by the critic:

'To me it has been revealed', when naught has been revealed to him" refers to 'Abdullah Ibn Sâd Ibn Abi Sarh, who used to write for God's messenger. The verse (23:12) that says, "We created man of an extraction of clay" was revealed, and when Muhammad reached the part that says, "... thereafter We produced him as another creature (23:14), 'Abdullah said, "So blessed be God the fairest of creators!" in amazement at the details of man's creation. The Prophet said, "Write it down; for thus it has been revealed." 'Abdullah doubted and said, "If Muhammad is truthful then I receive the revelation as much as he does, and if he is a liar, what I said is a good as what he said."

The above claim can be summed up as follows: cAbdullâh was one of the scribes of the Prophet(P). Upon the revelation of the verse 23:12 and his anticipation on the end of the verse 23:14, he thought that he received the revelation as much as the Prophet(P) and he doubted in the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad(P). Therefore, he apostatized and returned to Quraysh [Mecca] where he sought refuge.

Apostacy of Ibn Sarh

In the beginning of our study, we have to determine whether he apostatized before the Hijrah, i.e., in Mecca or after the hijrah, i.e., in Medina. The author of the criticism says that cAbdullâh returned to Quraysh [Mecca] and the word he put between [ ] implies that he returned to Mecca.

As a matter of fact, there is an entire science dedicated to the study of the life of the companions of the Prophet and the later generations of Muslims who were involved in the transmission of hadîth. This science is called cIlm al-Rijâl (i.e., the Science of the Folk). One of the biggest references in that field is Usûd Ulghâbah fi Ma'rifat Is-Sahâbah by Ibn al-Athîr. In the entry concerning cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh we find the following:

The above excerpt reads:

He converted to Islam before the conquest of Mecca and immigrated to the Prophet(P) [i.e. in Medina]. He used to record the revelation for the Prophet(P) before he apostatized and went back to Mecca. Then he told Quraysh: 'I used to orient Muhammad wherever I willed, he dictated to me "All-Powerful All-Wise" and I suggest "All Knowing All-Wise" so he would say: "Yes, it is all the same."[1]

From the above quotations of Usûd Ulghâbah, no doubt remains concerning the conversion of cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh: he embraced Islam after the Hijrah and joined the Muslims in Medina. Thus, his apostasy occurred later which means it occurred in Medina.

cUlûm al-Qur'ân & Revelation

The "Science of Qur'ân" (in Arabic cUlûm al-Qur'ân) has fortunately conveyed lots of valuable details about the revelation of the Holy Qur'ân including the reason of the revelation (in Arabic Asbâb un-Nuzûl which is usually a certain event that motivated the revelation of some verses of the Qur'ân) and even the places where such and such verse or chapter of the Qur'ân were revealed to the Prophet(P). Note that the verses revealed in Mecca are called Meccan verses and the ones revealed in Medina are called Medinite verses. The main reference used in this article as to cUlûm al-Qur'ân is Al-Itqân fî cUlûm il-Qur'ân by Jalaluddîn al-Suyûtî.

Concerning Chapter 6 (from which the verse 6:93 is quoted), many reports support the fact that it was entirely revealed in Mecca. They also go on saying that this Chapter was escorted by 70,000 angels when Gabriel carried it down to the Prophet(P). Refer to Al-Itqân, Section 13: What was revealed scattered and what was revealed in one unit,[2]. One may also refer to Al-Itqân, Section 14: What was revealed with an escort and what was revealed alone[3]. Consequently, the opinion the verse 6:93 addressed cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh falls flat on its face. Many commentators convey reports that the revelation of the verse 6:93 addressed Musaylamah al-Kadhdhâb of al-Yamâmah and al-'Ansy of Yemen, both of them having claimed prophethood at that time.

For the sake of completeness, we will quote some more information given in Al-Itqân. According to Ibn as-Salâh in his Fâtawi:

The report that conveys the revelation of Chapter 6 entirely in one unit was given from the way of Ubayy Ibn Ka'b, it is weak in its isnâd (i.e. the chain of narration), and I have never seen a trustful (Sahih) isnâd for this tradition. Many traditions even said the contrary i.e. several verses of Chapter 6 were revealed later in Medina. They differed on the number of these verses whether they are 3 or 6 or some other number, and God knows best.[4]

So, some reports concerning Chapter 6 classify several verses as Medinite verses. These reports differed on the number of verses: a report on the authority of Ibn cAbbas excludes 3 verses (6:151 to 6:153), others say 6 verses (the previous ones + 6:91 + 6:93 & 6:94- they also say that the last two verses concern Musaylamah). Other reports exclude two verses only, for example 6:20 & 6:114. They also differ on Asbâb un-Nuzûl of the verses excluded as they either concern Musaylamah or a Jewish Rabbi of Medina or other reasons. So, not withstanding what is said in the previous paragraph, we will not close the case yet because of the slight doubt about Asbâb un-Nuzûl of verse 6:93.

According to the critic, the revelation of verse 23:12 and the amazed anticipation of cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh on the end of verse 23:14 triggered his apostasy. Many books about the cUlûm al-Qur'ân have made an accurate classification of the Chapters and verses that were revealed in Mecca (those are called Meccan verses or Chapters), and the ones revealed in Medina (those are called Medinite). According to Al-Itqân, we learn that the full Chapter 23 (i.e., Sûrat al-Mu'minûn) is Meccan. Refer to pages 17-21 where many reports confirm the revelation of Chapter 23 in Mecca with no exception of any single verse.[5] Obviously, this report quoted from al-Baidawi is a gross fabrication since cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh embraced Islam after the revelation of Chapter 23. When we add to the above the fact that the full quotation from al-Baidawî was not put forward by the critic even when we asked for it, and given the fact that the reports are stated without the chains of transmission, the authentication of such a report is impossible. Moreover, a comparison to other commentaries of the Qur'ân (such as the commentaries of al-Qurtubî[6] and at-Tabarî[7]) mentioning the same report provide disrupted chains of transmission. That is why the claim of the critic based on the report of al-Baidawî looses conclusively all its value.

What Does Sirah Of al-cIraqî Actually Say?

Now let us look into the argument quoted from Is the Qur'ân Infallible? by cAbdullâh cAbd al-Fad.

The translation provided by the critic is:

The scribes of Muhammad were 42 in number. 'Abdullah Ibn Sarh al-`Amiri was one of them, and he was the first Qurai****e among those who wrote in Mecca before he turned away from Islam. He started saying, "I used to direct Muhammad wherever I willed. He would dictate to me 'All-Powerful, All-Wise' [the critic has wrongly translated 'Aziz by Most-High which is in Arabic 'Aliyy, it seems that he confused it with the previous word 'Alayya which means "to me"], and I would write down 'All-Wise' only. Then he would say, 'Yes it is all the same'. On a certain occasion he said, 'Write such and such', but I wrote 'Write' only, and he said, 'Write whatever you like.'" So when this scribe exposed Muhammad, he wrote in the Qur'an, "And who does greater evil than he who forges against God a lie, or says, 'To me it has been revealed', when naught has been revealed to him."

The rest of the English translation go further than what is stated in Arabic, so we will not quote it here. However, it is available at the original site.

The above argument is presented by the critic as a "quotation from as-Sîrah by al-'Iraqî". First of all, there are many people by the name of al-'Iraqî but the author does not say which al-cIraqî is mentioned here. Fortunately, God guided us to the source of this claim: Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah by al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî. In fact, al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî has wrote the Sîrah in a piece of poetry of 1000 verse called Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah. Here is the relevant quotation:[8]
In the first verse of the above quotation (i.e. verse 780 in the poem), al-Hâfidh al-'Iraqî starts by saying that the scribes of the Prophet(P) were 42. Obviously, this detail links Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah to the argument stated by the critic. The above quotation consists of twelve verses mentioning various scribes of the Holy Qur'ân among the most known. cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh is not mentioned yet. In the verse 786, al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî says:

And I added from various accounts on Sîrah a lot of people, it is for you to verify and check.

This means clearly that not all that is mentioned is to be taken blindly. Al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî is making a simple compilation of what he found leaving the verification for the reader. Then al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî goes on with his list:
In verses 796 to 798, al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî says:

They mentioned three who wrote [for the Prophet] and apostatized: Ibn Abî Sarh and Ibn Khatal and another one whose name is unknown. No one of them returned to the religion [Islam] except Ibn Abî Sarh while the others strayed from the right path.

A minimum of objectivity is enough to understand that al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî does not back up such claims. He is merely reporting accounts and asks the people interested in them to take upon themselves the burden of verification.

When we give a second look to the argument of the critic, we see clearly that he is putting words in the mouth of al-cIraqî. He is using the passage al-cIraqî himself doubts in the tone of established facts. This is called twisting facts to serve one's goal. It has nothing to do with objectivity, let alone the claimed honesty or the quest of the Truth. Al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî in his Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah does not assert for sure that cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh was a scribe of the Prophet(P). He also states clearly that the scribes who apostatized had gone astray. Therefore, he cannot contradict himself by saying what the critic is putting in his mouth. Consequently, in the absence of the source of such claims, we dismiss this argument unless the critic provides us with its source stated fully and correctly.

Discussion

1) What do we know about cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh?

He embraced Islam after the Hijrah while Muslims were living in Medina. We don't know the year exactly. He probably had the opportunity to write for the Prophet(P). He apostatized but the reason stated in many accounts (i.e. verse 23:12) is not consistent because it goes against many established reports in the cUlûm al-Qur'ân. He returned to Islam and was a good Muslim. Indeed, here is what is said about him quoted in the commentary of al-Qurtubî[9]:

For the convenience of our non-Arabic speaking audience, the full translation to English of the above report is also available.

In the above quotation, we read a similar report to Baidawî's. However, the report gives more details about cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh. Indeed, the report says:

According to Abû Omar, "cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh converted back to Islam during the conquest of Mecca and his Islam was fine, and later, his behavior was beyond reproach. He was among the wise and the noble from Quraysh, and was the knight of Banî 'Aamir Ibn Lu'ayy was respected among them. Later, 'Uthmân named him to govern Egypt in the year 25 H. He conquered Africa in the year 27 H and conquered Nuba in the year 31 H and he was the one who signed with the Nubites the armistice that is still valid today. He defeated the Romans in the battle of as-Sawaary in the year 34 H. When he returned from his advent, he was prevented from entering al-Fustât [the capital of Egypt], so he went to 'Asqalân where he lived until the murder of cUthmân(R). It was also said: he lived in Ramlah until he died away from the turmoil. And he prayed Allah saying: "O Allah make the prayer of subh the last of my deeds. So he performed wudu and prayed; he read Surat al-Fâtihah and al-'Aadiyât in the first rak'ah and read al-Fâtihah and another sûrah in the second rak'ah and made salâm on his right and died before he made salâm on the left side. All this report was conveyed by Yazîd Ibn Abî Habîb and others. He didn't pledge allegiance to cAlî nor to Mu'âwiyah (RR). His death was before the people agreed on Mu'âwiyah. It was also said that he died in Africa, but the correct is that he died in 'Asqalân in the year 36 H or 37 H and it was rather said 36 H.

In a nutshell, Ibn Abî Sarh embraced Islam after the Muslims had immigrated to Medina. He took the trouble to migrate to Medina where he became one of the scribes of the Prophet. For an unknown reason, he apostatized and went back to Mecca. He is supposed to have told the Meccans that he changed the Qur'ân according to his own will. This seems to be very predictable for someone in his situation seeking the favours of the Meccans whom he betrayed not a long time before. Then the above report states what is reported in Sîrat Rasulillah and in at-Tabaqât al-Kabîr as well: cAbdullâh was among the bunch that had to be executed but he could benefit of cUthmân's intercession and he kept his life safe. Though the beginning of his Islam was unstable (he migrated then apostatized then converted back to Islam in a very short time), he became a good Muslim and was even made the commander of Muslim troops. A report conveyed by 'Ikrimah in the commentary of at-Tabarî about verse 6:93 says that

'Abdullah Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh converted back to Islam before the conquest of Mecca by the Prophet(P).[10]

This means that he converted back to Islam willingly without the shadow of any pressure. Of course, like all the reports involved in this case, the transmission of this report is disrupted.

2) Did cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh contribute to the Qur'ân?

There is no factual proof for such a horrendous claim. The claim about Chapter 23 proved to be a fabrication because it was revealed before cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh became a Muslim. If we take into account the most admitted opinion among the Qur'ânic scholars, the entirety of Chapter 6 is Meccan. Consequently, the verse 6:93 is not revealed in regard of Ibn Abî Sarh but rather in regard of Musaylamah and al-'Ansy and more generally in regard of anyone who claims prophethood falsely.

Moreover, if the scribes were allowed to contribute to the Qur'ân, how can the critic explain that among the 42 scribes there is only one (cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh) who was bothered about it? Didn't the others feel uneasy about such a thing if it ever happened?

Of course, it is out of the question that the Prophet of God(P) allow such contribution because it is claimed many times in the Qur'ân that the Holy Book is dictated upon revelation and any contribution to it must be of divine inspiration.

3) The author of the criticism asks:

If this story about Sarh were a fabrication, why did so many early Muslim writers document it? Certainly devout Muslims would not document a lie that serves to undermine their faith.

This is the best question raised in the whole argument. Its answer is implied in the quotation of al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî in his Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah. Many of the early writers were concerned by the compilation only. Fearing that the material available could be lost, they collected whatever reports they could find without authenticating them. They left the authentication process to the following generations as it is clearly stated in the following excerpt of Alfiyyat us-Sirat in-Nabawiyyah by al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî:

In the verses 5 & 6, he says:

Let the seeker of knowledge know that Sîrah collects every account whether true or false. But the intention is to mention all that is conveyed in the books of Sîrah regardless of the isnaad. (i.e., the authenticity of the chains of narration)

A devout Muslim does not need to twist the facts to protect his faith especially when an authentication process existed even in the early stages of Islam. A whole Science is concerned with the reliability of the narrators based on their life and their moral values. That is why many people could compile many reports leaving the authentication procedure to the ones who followed them. In reality, if all the early scholars cared about authenticating every report they heard of, a lot of the material available today would be lost.

Unlike Muslims, some people, unaware of the Science of Hadîth and the "Knowledge of the Folk" when venturing into the Islamic references alone without a teacher, encounter great hardship digesting all the material available. Others, more wicked, use the same characteristic of the early references to lead innocent people astray. But, with God's help and protection, their dark plans are always unveiled. As for the author of the critic, we would rather refrain from classifying him in either category. The readership may judge him and only God can tell what his real intentions are.

4) If cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh really deserved to be executed according to a Law, why did the Prophet(P) accept the intercession of cUthmân?

This is a trick question. However, it also shows that the author of the criticism is either ignorant in the field of Islamic Law or his goal is to deceive as many people as he can. In terms of Islamic Law, there are two categories of crimes. The ones named by God (such as murder, theft, fornication etc.) to which He defined the proper punishment "Hudood"(the singular is 'Hadd'). And the ones not named by God, their evaluation and their punishment (called ta'dhîr) are left for the judgment of the sovereign. Provided that the reports of Sîrat Rasulillah and at-Tabaqât al-Kabîr are correct, the case of cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh is simply about the sovereign (Prophet Muhammad(P)) making a decree against a criminal (cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh) then upon the intercession of a third party (cUthmân Ibn 'Affân), the sovereign agrees to give amnesty to the criminal. Given that the punishment is originally left to the sovereign, a subsequent change in the judgment especially forgiveness cannot be criticized.

Conclusions

After the above study, the claims that the Holy Qur'ân has been tainted by Ibn Abî Sarh do not hold water. One thing is sure. We do not know a lot about the beginning of the faith of Ibn Abî Sarh. It was apparently unstable. However, later, he converted back to Islam and his faith was beyond reproach. The question raised about the change in the judgment concerning Ibn Abî Sarh denotes of real ignorance of the Islamic Law or a crooked intention of deception. If the goal behind that criticism was the quest of the Truth, then by God's will the above elaboration is likely to be enough for the author of the criticism to retract it.
SOURCE
Reply

Hiroshi
04-27-2011, 03:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh. was a man who it appears sort of flip flopped between Islam and apostacy. At the time he made his claim he had aposted to the Quayish.

If I understand correctly he was a scribe during the Medinah era but Surah 23 was revealed during the Makkah era. When Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh. apostated he made his claim of having changed the words. But that does not seem possible as 42 other scribes had already written copied 23:14 as it stands today and that was prior to Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh. being a scribe.

This rather lengthy but perhaps it will explain:



SOURCE
Thank you Woodrow. I now see that there seems to be a bit of a hornet's nest of controversy here. It doesn't concern me (or the point I was making) very much so I don't want to pursue this very far. But don't you find it strange that such a number of early commentators, devout Muslims and learned men, would claim that Abdullah did speak the words of Surah 23:14 if it were not true? Why would they say such a thing?
Reply

Woodrow
04-27-2011, 04:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Thank you Woodrow. I now see that there seems to be a bit of a hornet's nest of controversy here. It doesn't concern me (or the point I was making) very much so I don't want to pursue this very far. But don't you find it strange that such a number of early commentators, devout Muslims and learned men, would claim that Abdullah did speak the words of Surah 23:14 if it were not true? Why would they say such a thing?
For the same reason , devout Christians and learned men claim that Jesus(as) was crucified on a cross. People are human and can only use the information they have and have verified to their satisfaction.
Reply

JPR
04-27-2011, 04:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Did you not find it mindboggling that one of the most beloved bible stories by christians was actually fabricated? The story is especially loved by christians who are so fond of sinning, using it as examples that sinning is ok and shouldnt be punished. Hence the downward spiral of christianity.

Hi Naidamar! thanks for this input as I went and searched for some info about that passage!

First, I would like to point out that it is not an example that sinning is ok and shouldn't be punished. It shows how much we should love everyone, even the sinners. Even Jesus wouldn't judge her and instead gave her a second chance.

Second, the evidence for or against the text. I'll just point out that in this age of (mis)information and instant internet knowledge, it is very easy to find books, opinions and articles to prove a point. That would be like me saying "Islam only promotes violence" and then look in the Qu'ran, ahadith and all over the internet to prove my point. That would be very hypocritical of me to do so, just like some terrorists pluck out some verses from the Qu'ran to "justify" their acts, without taking into account the rest of the evidence.

I read some articles about the passage we are talking about and the evidence clearly shows that the P66 scribe knew about the omission of the passage by marking it. The same thing happened in the Codex Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. To me it is an indication that the scribes knew there was a missing part part in the text they were copying. The only thing that can be actually proved is that, yes, the passage is missing and even the scribe of the oldest copy knew about it!

Sorry but since the day you massively copied-cut a huge part of a garbage website like answering christianity, to answer me right after I wrote that I wouldn't do the opposite, I take your posts and opinions with a lot of caution.

What I would like to though is if anyone could offer the counter to that passage from the Qu'ran or hadith.

Thanks all, and no hard feelings Naidamar, your points are valid and your questions sound, the methodology is what I find lacking.
Reply

Zafran
04-27-2011, 04:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
It may be because certain things that were written in those extra books, commonly called the Apocrypha, seemed to support catholic teachings. So they didn't want to reject them.

But there are many foolish superstitions, inaccuracies and falsehoods in the Apocrypha. The only Apocryphal books of real value are perhaps 1 and 2 Maccabees which contain good historical information. But they are not, and do not claim to be, inspired by God. And never do the NT writers quote from the Apocrypha.



I don't see why there are problems. A number of books in the Bible are the combination of more than one writer. And I have read commentary that says that the words in the Qur'an: "So Blessed be Allah the Best of Creators" (Surah 23:14) were spoken, not by Muhammad, but by a man called Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh.
On your first point - It still stands and and now I have learnt that Othrodox also have a different canons as well - do the catholics and the orthodox see these books as fabrications - if they did they woudlnt have added them in there canon - its foolish - only after the 16th century did this become an issue.

On your last point thats like me quoting the apocrypha and saying that its mainstream christian teachings? I'm talking about actually accpeted books by the catholics and the Orthodox and rejected by the Protestants.

Indeed the problem of deautoronmy still stands - its a clear cut add on - as Moses pbuh clearly couldnt be talking about his death before - even you accept that it was written later and not by Moses pbuh himself.
Reply

Hiroshi
04-27-2011, 06:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

Indeed the problem of deautoronmy still stands - its a clear cut add on - as Moses pbuh clearly couldnt be talking about his death before - even you accept that it was written later and not by Moses pbuh himself.
You said: "Indeed the last verses of deuteronomy have been added God knows what else has been added and taken out."

You are making a mountain out of a molehill, I'm afraid. As I said, many books of the Bible were written by more than one writer. The book of 1 Samuel could not have been written by Samuel alone because 1 Samuel 25:1 states: "In time Samuel died". But that doesn't mean that the book has been corrupted. It just means that there was more than one writer.

2 Timothy 3:16 says: "All scripture is inspired of God" and that surely includes the whole of Deuteronomy together with the last 8 verses. Jesus himself quoted from Deuteronomy three times when rebuking Satan (Luke 4:1-12).

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

On your first point - It still stands and and now I have learnt that Othrodox also have a different canons as well - do the catholics and the orthodox see these books as fabrications - if they did they woudlnt have added them in there canon - its foolish - only after the 16th century did this become an issue.
I don't quite understand what you are telling me here. What are these different canons that the "Orthodox" have?
Reply

gmcbroom
04-27-2011, 08:18 PM
Naidamar,
It would seem it just comes down to faith doesn't it? The scriptures whether they be Old Testament/New Testament for Christians or Koranic for the Muslims provide a resource for people to follow. The downside is of course the allegations of forgery that resound throughout time and space by those who either can't or won't believe what they read or hear.

You've illustrated how there could be parts of the Christian scriptures that are forged in order to deceive others. That can cause doubts in those that follow that particular way. However, it appears even Islam has the same problem as illustrated by Woodrow when he mentions the scribe Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn .

In any case Christians should follow their faith and Muslims should follow theirs. As a Christian who is Catholic you know I follow the scriptures as well as the traditions of the Catholic Church, I won't mention Apostolic Succession because it infuriates some people but that is a valuable part of the Church non the less. You have successfully convinced me that there times when bad people can be in power within the Church as they can be in any profession or religion. However, I won't abandon my faith just because there are some bad apples within it past present, or future; and I expect the same of muslims as well. For Christians atleast God gave us all free will. He rains on the guilty and the innocent.

In any case I won't expect Muslims to abandon their faith for the same reasons. We each follow different scriptures some of which may of may not be forgeries.

As Woodrow has so eloquently put,"People can only use the information they have and have verified to their satisfaction."

For Christians Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. For Muslims this may not be the case as they view Jesus in an entirely different way.

I'll close with a quote from the Late Arch Bishop Fulton Sheen.

"A Lie is a Lie even if everyone believes it, and the Truth is the Truth even if no one believe it."

Peace be with you.
Reply

Zafran
04-28-2011, 12:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
You said: "Indeed the last verses of deuteronomy have been added God knows what else has been added and taken out."

You are making a mountain out of a molehill, I'm afraid. As I said, many books of the Bible were written by more than one writer. The book of 1 Samuel could not have been written by Samuel alone because 1 Samuel 25:1 states: "In time Samuel died". But that doesn't mean that the book has been corrupted. It just means that there was more than one writer.

2 Timothy 3:16 says: "All scripture is inspired of God" and that surely includes the whole of Deuteronomy together with the last 8 verses. Jesus himself quoted from Deuteronomy three times when rebuking Satan (Luke 4:1-12).



I don't quite understand what you are telling me here. What are these different canons that the "Orthodox" have?
Not realy you need to go back and see what I wrote - The torah in tradition is the book GIVEN TO MOSES pbuh (ONE MAN) - but in the bible you have today- Moses pbuh is being descirbed as being buried in the book that was meant to be given to Moses pbuh - After Moses pbuh died the Torah should not have been edited by anyone - well it was and we have many suspects - So heres the problem in summery

As the Bible as been written by more then one person (probably Jews trying to recollect the Torah) it is not realy the Torah of Moses pbuh anymore - you can even see these add ons (deutoronmy example) which couldnt have been in the original book given to Moses pbuh - its more of a re edited version.

The NT is total different debate.

see post 25 by gmcbroom for the different canon/books in the orthodox tradition - I'll quote him below

As for the Orthodox Canon having more I can't say why they do just that they do, anywhere from 76 to 88 depending on which Orthodox Church you belong to.
Reply

Ramadhan
04-28-2011, 02:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
Hi Naidamar! thanks for this input as I went and searched for some info about that passage!
I wonder how many christians actually understand what is in the bible text and what is not, if you, a fairly knowledgeable christian, did not even know the blatant addition to the oldest bible manuscripts.

format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
First, I would like to point out that it is not an example that sinning is ok and shouldn't be punished. It shows how much we should love everyone, even the sinners. Even Jesus wouldn't judge her and instead gave her a second chance.
IF that had been indeed occurred, but as biblical textual authenticity, integrity and criticism (and even a follower of christ here, Hiroshi, also agrees that the passage is fabrication) showed, the passage is a complete fabrication.

Also even if christians claim that they use the passage to show how much they should love everyone, in practice it only weakens the argument that punishment should be enforced for those who break the law. We all know from other verified passages that Jesus (pbuh) was upholding mosaic law, he even in anger kicked out money changers from temples.
This fabricated passage is certainly a great bounty for sinners and other people who continually sin and break the law. I guess thats how paedophile priests got off.

format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
Second, the evidence for or against the text. I'll just point out that in this age of (mis)information and instant internet knowledge, it is very easy to find books, opinions and articles to prove a point.
Then point out where I made mistake, and debate why bible scholars were wrong, and give us evidence.

format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
That would be like me saying "Islam only promotes violence" and then look in the Qu'ran, ahadith and all over the internet to prove my point. That would be very hypocritical of me to do so, just like some terrorists pluck out some verses from the Qu'ran to "justify" their acts, without taking into account the rest of the evidence.
That is funny that you came up with such analogy. Let me point out the fallacy of such analogy.
The action of other muslims do not define my faith, and their understanding or lack thereof of Qur'an and ahadeeth do not change the Qur'an and ahadeeth.
The terrorists actions also do not affect my salvation in any way.
However, believing that such and such words and actions were of God while in actuality were only words of scribes could condemn you to not the nicest places after death.
Unless, you do not think it is important that words of God should never be changed, modified, edited, erased, added into, etc.
Harry Potter books might be more entertaining in that way.
Also, in this thread, I did not take my sources from rabid anti-christian sites like all you rabid christians do when debating the Qur'an. I am taking ALL my sources of bible from your own established christians and bible sites. (biblenet etc).
The corruptions, contradictions and errors found within bible and between bible versions are enough to keep this forum busy for another 100 years.

Now, if you think I only take my source from the some shady internet sites that Pericope adulterae did not exist in codex sinaiticus, then give us evidence where in codex sinaiticus and others that the passage exist.

Don't give us the straw men, it's something that I've noticed a lot of christians do when the magnifying glass is directed towards bible.

format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
I read some articles about the passage we are talking about and the evidence clearly shows that the P66 scribe knew about the omission of the passage by marking it. The same thing happened in the Codex Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. To me it is an indication that the scribes knew there was a missing part part in the text they were copying. The only thing that can be actually proved is that, yes, the passage is missing and even the scribe of the oldest copy knew about it!
OK. give us links, I would like to know how you were able to know what's in the minds of the P66, Codex sinaiticus, vaticanus, alexandrinus and all other earliest surviving new testament uncials, while in fact bible scholars already came to conclusion that pericope adulterae was never part of johanine uncials. I have given you bart ehrman's books where I took my finding from. Have you read them?

Here's more evidence that pericope adulterae was complete fabrication (I hope you are aware that the passage appeared first time in Latin Vulgate):
Keith, Chris (2008). "Recent and Previous Research on the Pericope Adulterae (John 7.53—8.11)". Currents in Biblical Research 6 (3): 377–404.

More for you to read:
http://net.bible.org/#!bible/John+7:4
139 tc This entire section, 7:53-8:11, traditionally known as the pericope adulterae, is not contained in the earliest and best mss and was almost certainly not an original part of the Gospel of John. Among modern commentators and textual critics, it is a foregone conclusion that the section is not original but represents a later addition to the text of the Gospel. B. M. Metzger summarizes: “the evidence for the non-Johannine origin of the pericope of the adulteress is overwhelming” (TCGNT 187). External evidence is as follows. For the omission of 7:53-8:11: Ì66,75 א B L N T W Δ Θ Ψ 0141 0211 33 565 1241 1424* 2768 al. In addition codices A and C are defective in this part of John, but it appears that neither contained the pericope because careful measurement shows that there would not have been enough space on the missing pages to include the pericope 7:53-8:11 along with the rest of the text. Among the mss that include 7:53-8:11 are D Ï lat. In addition E S Λ 1424mg al include part or all of the passage with asterisks or obeli, 225 places the pericope after John 7:36, Ë1 places it after John 21:25, {115} after John 8:12, Ë13 after Luke 21:38, and the corrector of 1333 includes it after Luke 24:53. (For a more complete discussion of the locations where this “floating” text has ended up, as well as a minority opinion on the authenticity of the passage, see M. A. Robinson, “Preliminary Observations regarding the Pericope Adulterae Based upon Fresh Collations of nearly All Continuous-Text Manuscripts and All Lectionary Manuscripts containing the Passage,” Filologia Neotestamentaria 13 [2000]: 35-59, especially 41-42.) In evaluating this ms evidence, it should be remembered that in the Gospels A is considered to be of Byzantine texttype (unlike in the epistles and Revelation, where it is Alexandrian), as are E F G (mss with the same designation are of Western texttype in the epistles). This leaves D as the only major Western uncial witness in the Gospels for the inclusion. Therefore the evidence could be summarized by saying that almost all early mss of the Alexandrian texttype omit the pericope, while most mss of the Western and Byzantine texttype include it. But it must be remembered that “Western mss” here refers only to D, a single witness (as far as Greek mss are concerned). Thus it can be seen that practically all of the earliest and best mss extant omit the pericope; it is found only in mss of secondary importance. But before one can conclude that the passage was not originally part of the Gospel of John, internal evidence needs to be considered as well. Internal evidence in favor of the inclusion of 8:1-11 (7:53-8:11): (1) 7:53 fits in the context. If the “last great day of the feast” (7:37) refers to the conclusion of the Feast of Tabernacles, then the statement refers to the pilgrims and worshipers going home after living in “booths” for the week while visiting Jerusalem. (2) There may be an allusion to Isa 9:1-2 behind this text: John 8:12 is the point when Jesus describes himself as the Light of the world. But the section in question mentions that Jesus returned to the temple at “early dawn” (῎Ορθρου, Orqrou, in 8:2). This is the “dawning” of the Light of the world (8:12) mentioned by Isa 9:2. (3) Furthermore, note the relationship to what follows: Just prior to presenting Jesus’ statement that he is the Light of the world, John presents the reader with an example that shows Jesus as the light. Here the woman “came to the light” while her accusers shrank away into the shadows, because their deeds were evil (cf. 3:19-21). Internal evidence against the inclusion of 8:1-11 (7:53-8:11): (1) In reply to the claim that the introduction to the pericope, 7:53, fits the context, it should also be noted that the narrative reads well without the pericope, so that Jesus’ reply in 8:12 is directed against the charge of the Pharisees in 7:52 that no prophet comes from Galilee. (2) The assumption that the author “must” somehow work Isa 9:1-2 into the narrative is simply that – an assumption. The statement by the Pharisees in 7:52 about Jesus’ Galilean origins is allowed to stand without correction by the author, although one might have expected him to mention that Jesus was really born in Bethlehem. And 8:12 does directly mention Jesus’ claim to be the Light of the world. The author may well have presumed familiarity with Isa 9:1-2 on the part of his readers because of its widespread association with Jesus among early Christians. (3) The fact that the pericope deals with the light/darkness motif does not inherently strengthen its claim to authenticity, because the motif is so prominent in the Fourth Gospel that it may well have been the reason why someone felt that the pericope, circulating as an independent tradition, fit so well here. (4) In general the style of the pericope is not Johannine either in vocabulary or grammar (see D. B. Wallace, “Reconsidering ‘The Story of the Woman Taken in Adultery Reconsidered’,” NTS 39 [1993]: 290-96). According to R. E. Brown it is closer stylistically to Lukan material (John [AB], 1:336). Interestingly one important family of mss (Ë13) places the pericope after Luke 21:38. Conclusion: In the final analysis, the weight of evidence in this case must go with the external evidence. The earliest and best mss do not contain the pericope. It is true with regard to internal evidence that an attractive case can be made for inclusion, but this is by nature subjective (as evidenced by the fact that strong arguments can be given against such as well). In terms of internal factors like vocabulary and style, the pericope does not stand up very well. The question may be asked whether this incident, although not an original part of the Gospel of John, should be regarded as an authentic tradition about Jesus. It could well be that it is ancient and may indeed represent an unusual instance where such a tradition survived outside of the bounds of the canonical literature. However, even that needs to be nuanced (see B. D. Ehrman, “Jesus and the Adulteress,” NTS 34 [1988]: 24–44).
sn Double brackets have been placed around this passage to indicate that most likely it was not part of the original text of the Gospel of John. In spite of this, the passage has an important role in the history of the transmission of the text, so it has been included in the translation.

format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
Sorry but since the day you massively copied-cut a huge part of a garbage website like answering christianity, to answer me right after I wrote that I wouldn't do the opposite, I take your posts and opinions with a lot of caution.
Ah but http://www.answering-christianity.org/ac.htm serves its purpose in answering specific allegations and lies from rabid christian who took their lies from anti Islam sites
Also, if you think the points I made using source from answering christianity is not correct, then it would have been easy for you to refute, right?.
There are other better sites, such as http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/home
Try it, you may get enlightened that way.

format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
What I would like to though is if anyone could offer the counter to that passage from the Qu'ran or hadith.
We have already shown that the passage is a fiction. Qur'an and hadith do not respond and counter in specific way every fictions ever written, but there are several verses where God condemns scrptural scribes, rabbis and priests who changed the words of God.
Reply

Hiroshi
04-28-2011, 06:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
For the same reason , devout Christians and learned men claim that Jesus(as) was crucified on a cross. People are human and can only use the information they have and have verified to their satisfaction.
Justin Martyr (114-167 C.E.) described in this way what he believed to be the type of stake upon which Jesus died: “For the one beam is placed upright, from which the highest extremity is raised up into a horn, when the other beam is fitted on to it, and the ends appear on both sides as horns joined on to the one horn.” This indicates that Justin himself believed that Jesus died on a cross.

However, Justin was not inspired by God, as were the Bible writers. He was born more than eighty years after Jesus’ death, and was not an eyewitness of that event. It is believed that in describing the “cross” Justin followed an earlier writing known as the “Letter of Barnabas.” This non-Biblical letter claims that the Bible describes Abraham as having circumcised three hundred and eighteen men of his household. Then it derives special significance from a Greek-letter cipher for 318, namely, IHT. The writer of this apocryphal work claims that IH represents the first two letters of “Jesus” in Greek. The T is viewed as the shape of Jesus’ death stake.

Concerning this passage, M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia states: “The writer evidently was unacquainted with the Hebrew Scriptures, and has [also] committed the blunder of supposing that Abraham was familiar with the Greek alphabet some centuries before it existed.” A translator into English of this “Letter of Barnabas” points out that it contains “numerous inaccuracies,” “absurd and trifling interpretations of Scripture,” and “many silly vaunts of superior knowledge in which its writer indulges.”
Reply

Ramadhan
04-29-2011, 02:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
It would seem it just comes down to faith doesn't it?
I disagree. Maybe for christians, faith is all it takes to believe that human is god, and that a book full of contradictions and errors is from god and inspired by god. Maybe it's only christians who believe that the only way to determine the truth is faith. If faith is all it takes, then what makes christianity different than those who worship fire as god, or the people who believe the universe is self-creating and eternal, or the children who believe Harry Potter books are for real, or the children (and adults alike) who believe that santa lives on the north pole?

format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
The scriptures whether they be Old Testament/New Testament for Christians or Koranic for the Muslims provide a resource for people to follow.
There's a difference. Muslims believe the Qur'an contains guidance for mankind and from God, and the criterion for truth. While from what you are saying, I got the sense that that the OT and NT is just merely a resource book for people to follow, maybe similar to this:WHO Resource book on mental health, human rights and legislation

format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
The downside is of course the allegations of forgery that resound throughout time and space by those who either can't or won't believe what they read or hear.
This is true. However, as we have seen countless times, when allegation is baseless and not true, it is very easy to provide evidence against it. And this does not apply to religious scriptures only, but also to all aspects of human life. That's why in the court of law the judges and/or jury examine evidence for/against accusation to determine the truth.

format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
You've illustrated how there could be parts of the Christian scriptures that are forged in order to deceive others.
I did not only illustrate, but I provided evidence. See my previous post.
And the evidence is actually provided by majority of bible scholars as well as the physical evidence that the pericope adulterae was never in the oldest bible manuscripts.

format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
In any case Christians should follow their faith and Muslims should follow theirs
If it were ok for anyone to follow anything that they like/have faith in, then God is unjust for condemning atheists, idol worshippers etc to hell. You know that this is in your scripture, right?

format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
As a Christian who is Catholic you know I follow the scriptures as well as the traditions of the Catholic Church, I won't mention Apostolic Succession because it infuriates some people but that is a valuable part of the Church non the less.
I think it infuriates other christians, especially the protestants. As a muslim, it just amuses me, that's all, as I have given illustration that apostolic succession may sound grand and look pompous and glittery (what with all those over the top papal clothing and all those papal palaces?), but is actually rotten in the inside.

format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
You have successfully convinced me that there times when bad people can be in power within the Church as they can be in any profession or religion.
Excuse me. Catholic believe that "apostolic succession" is not merely reguler followers of religion. You yourself said that many times here in this thread. You hold apostolic succession the holder of your standard of truth. If it merely people of faith, I wouldnt have argued against you, but the catholic church actually believe that the popes receive spiritual guidance form God and is the God's representative on earth and determined what is in the doctrines and what is not.
Here's from wiki:
Apostolic succession (Hebrew: האפיפיור הירושה‎, Greek: Αποστολική διαδοχή) is a doctrine, held by some Christian denominations, which asserts that the chosen successors (properly ordained bishops) of the Twelve Apostles, from the first century to the present day, have inherited the spiritual, ecclesiastical and sacramental authority, power, and responsibility that were conferred upon them by the Apostles, who in turn received their spiritual authority from Jesus Christ.

The Catholic Church doubly believes that a bishop's authority on matters of faith and morals is infallible when what he teaches is universally taught by all the college of bishops in communion with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope), who in turn is seen as the successor of Saint Peter the Apostle and the Vicar of Christ on Earth.

So the catholic church believes that the popes are infallible and God's authority on earth, and I have shown you with only ONE example that is not the case, unless you believe that God prefers his representatives to be devil incarnate.

format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
I won't abandon my faith just because there are some bad apples within it past present, or future; and I expect the same of muslims as well. For Christians atleast God gave us all free will. He rains on the guilty and the innocent.
I actually did not demand or even expect you to change your faith :)
As the title of the thread shows, I was only showing how the bible that christians hod as the truth is well and truly corrupted, and the creative words of men are attributed to god.

format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
For Christians atleast God gave us all free will.
True. God give us free will. But God is Just. He also gives us capacity to discern the truth and His guidance. Otherwise He is not just and arbitrary.

format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
We each follow different scriptures some of which may of may not be forgeries.
Except it has been shown with evidence that there's plenty of forgeries in the bible :)

format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
As Woodrow has so eloquently put,"People can only use the information they have and have verified to their satisfaction."
Very true, and we shown you here the information that bible is corrupted and contains forgeries (see my previous post).

format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
For Christians Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. For Muslims this may not be the case as they view Jesus in an entirely different way.
Empty words can sound meaningful and grand. Usually to mask the lies and obfuscate the truth. I agree.

format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
"A Lie is a Lie even if everyone believes it, and the Truth is the Truth even if no one believe it."
I totally agree with this. Think how many christians that believe the lies in the bible, the words of man and scribes and rabbis which were falsely attributed to God and Jesus (pbuh)?
Reply

JPR
04-29-2011, 03:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
OK. give us links, I would like to know how you were able to know what's in the minds of the P66, Codex sinaiticus, vaticanus, alexandrinus and all other earliest surviving new testament uncials, while in fact bible scholars already came to conclusion that pericope adulterae was never part of johanine uncials. I have given you bart ehrman's books where I took my finding from. Have you read them?
Would like to post links but can't :(

As for Bart Ehrman's books, never read them and don't have any intention of reading them after I read the following critique:

"Unfortunately, as careful a scholar as Ehrman is, his treatment of major theological changes in the text of the NT tends to fall under one of two criticisms: Either his textual decisions are wrong, or his interpretation is wrong.

Time and time again in the book, highly charged statements are put forth that the untrained person simply cannot sift through. And that approach resembles more an alarmist mentality than what a mature, master teacher is able to offer. Regarding the evidence, suffice it to say that significant textual variants that alter core doctrines of the NT have not yet been produced."

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
We have already shown that the passage is a fiction.
You haven't, you just said other people think that way. I would still like a passage from the Qu'ran talking about adulterous women / men


I went and checked the website you linked... less trashy then the first one, but still. (come on, "Book of Porn"? seriously?)

These websites promote more inter-religion hate than anything else. They are the fast-food equivalent of knowledge: 2000 calories, no nutritive value except for the ketchup. So no, I don't agree they serve any purpose.

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
specific allegations and lies from rabid christian
Replace "christian" with "person". A real christian who believes Jesus died for his sins won't lie because, well, that's sinning and contrary to the whole idea of becoming a child of God. And "rabid"? Come on that sounds like a certain website. Anything that doesn't agree with Islam is "anti-Islam" so the list is very large.

Now that it's taken care of, let's talk about what the Qu'ran offers for adulterous people.
Reply

Ramadhan
04-29-2011, 04:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
"Unfortunately, as careful a scholar as Ehrman is, his treatment of major theological changes in the text of the NT tends to fall under one of two criticisms: Either his textual decisions are wrong, or his interpretation is wrong.

So you decide what to read and not to read based on one single anonymous comment?
LOL.
No wonder you believe in lies and forgeries in the bible.
I thought only children do that.
Here's who Bart Ehrman is according to neutral sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman
http://religion.unc.edu/faculty/Ehrman1.html

Or from an evangelist who disagree with Bart but admire his academic integrity:
As an evangelical who has retained and maintained his faith in this journey, I haven't found it necessary to resort to denial. There are satisfactory answers to be found. It does, however, require a willingness to adopt some humility and to honestly rethink and modify positions when the facts call for it. That is not a bad thing. In fact, I think it's a good thing and results in a deeper, more understanding, more relevent and intellectually honest faith that can move and interact within our society and culture without apology. I don't believe God intends for his people to be mental midgets or follow their faith mindlessly.
Evangelicals, (such as myself) need to read and interact with these types of books and enter the field as participants in the debate rather than naysayers throwing verbal salvos from behind our walls of faith, security and (unfortunately at times) ignorance.

Read it and be introduced into an important field of knowledge.
http://www.amazon.com/review/R3L9D4Y...tag=&linkCode=

format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
You haven't, you just said other people think that way.
Are you even serious? or are you that delusional? I have provided you with sources that pericope adulterae was never in the bible manuscripts.
If you claim that pericope adulterae is contained in the oldest bible mansucripts (codex vaticanus, sinaiticus, alexandrinus) then give us links and show us where.

format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
I would still like a passage from the Qu'ran talking about adulterous women / men
This thread is about corrupted passages in the bible, so before you sidetracked the discussion and if you want to ask about Qur'an, you can go here: http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=37118 or http://www.islamicboard.com/forumdisplay.php?f=38
I am sure we are more than happy to answer all your question.

But as it has been established that pericopae adulterae is a fiction, Allah in the Qur'an say:
Sahih International
So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. (QS. 2:79)


In the meantime, let's see what God in the bible actually says about the punishments for adultery:

Exodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery."
Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."
Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."
Proverbs 6:32 "But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself."
Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the *****, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

Do Christians think those passages are corrupted?

format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
I went and checked the website you linked... less trashy then the first one, but still. (come on, "Book of Porn"? seriously?)
I also disagree that some people call bible "book of porn", but what I agree is that there are many passages in the bible which are quite sexually graphic.
Do you think those passages are actually from God or creative writing of men?

format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
Replace "christian" with "person". A real christian who believes Jesus died for his sins won't lie because, well, that's sinning and contrary to the whole idea of becoming a child of God.
Ah, then forgive me. I must have not met many christians so it seems.

format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
And "rabid"? Come on that sounds like a certain website. Anything that doesn't agree with Islam is "anti-Islam" so the list is very large.
The internet is littered with endless websites whose purpose is to paint lies against Islam. I can give you examples of those link. And Im not talking about that website you may have in mind. Most of those websites are by christians. Christian missionaries in my country are also actively using deceitful methods and lies to convert people to christianity, I shouldnt blame them though. They took example from Saul of Tarsus.

Now that's taken care of, please come up with more bible passages so we can discuss whether they are for real, corrupted or fabricated.
Reply

Trumble
04-29-2011, 08:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
So you decide what to read and not to read based on one single anonymous comment?
The source, apparently, is actually Professor Daniel_B._Wallace. According his his Wiki entry he seems no less distinguished a New Testament scholar than Ehrman. Of course, nobody can disagree with each other with quite the frequency, enjoyment and often disguised contempt much better than academics (economists maybe, politicians don't bother to disguise the contempt!). As such an expert in this 'important field of knowledge' I'm sure you are just as familiar with Wallace's work as that of Ehrman, so perhaps you could inform us of at least the most significant of their disagreements with some supporting sources? That would be particularly helpful as, unlike Ehrman, Wallace seems to have refrained from writing for the 'popular' audience - perhaps because, being rather less 'controversial', he wouldn't sell as well?

As to Misquoting Jesus, I note from the Wiki link you provided that even one of Ehrman's critics considers it "a very readable, accurate distillation of many of the most important facts about the nature and history of textual criticism, presented in a lively and interesting narrative that will keep scholarly and lay interest alike" - which, having read it as very much a layman I would certainly agree with, although I'd also endorse the comment regarding footnotes and bibliography.
Reply

Ramadhan
04-29-2011, 08:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
The source, apparently, is actually Professor Daniel_B._Wallace. According his his Wiki entry he seems no less distinguished a New Testament scholar than Ehrman. Of course, nobody can disagree with each other with quite the frequency, enjoyment and often disguised contempt much better than academics (economists maybe, politicians don't bother to disguise the contempt!). As such an expert in this 'important field of knowledge' I'm sure you are just as familiar with Wallace's work as that of Ehrman, so perhaps you could inform us of at least the most significant of their disagreements with some supporting sources? That would be particularly helpful as, unlike Ehrman, Wallace seems to have refrained from writing for the 'popular' audience - perhaps because, being rather less 'controversial', he wouldn't sell as well?
I so thank you for this, Trumble. I never knew that you can also be useful in exposing bible forgery and lies of bible scribes.
I am overly excited to find out if the comment is actually from professor Daniel Wallace. Let's see who this Prof. Wallace is.

Now, if you look back at my post #43, I provided the source and evidence that the passage about woman sinner is absolute forgery:

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
More for you to read: http://net.bible.org/#!bible/John+7:4 139 tc This entire section, 7:53-8:11, traditionally known as the pericope adulterae, is not contained in the earliest and best mss and was almost certainly not an original part of the Gospel of John. Among modern commentators and textual critics, it is a foregone conclusion that the section is not original but represents a later addition to the text of the Gospel.
And if you noticed the website, it's the NET Bible site.
Here's info on NET Bible:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NET_Bible

And do you know who served as the NT senior editor of NET bible?
yes, none other than the dear prof. Daniel Wallace that our friend JPR here is so fond of.
Wallace published his first edition of Greek Grammar Beyond The Basics in 1996. It has since become a standard work in the field. Two-thirds of schools that teach the subject use the textbook.[3] He also served as senior New Testament editor for the NET Bible and has founded the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts.
So, in this specific issue that we are debating, Prof. Daniel Wallace and his team concluded that pericope adulterae (john 7:53 8:11) was NEVER part of the original texts of the gospel of John.

LOL. ironic right?

It's so easy to find out forgeries and contradictions and errors of bible that even our friend Trimble the atheist is able to do it.
Reply

Trumble
04-29-2011, 11:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
It's so easy to find out It's so easy to find out forgeries and contradictions and errors of bible that even our friend Trimble the atheist is able to do it. that even our friend Trimble the atheist is able to do it.
That's Trumble.

You do have the most annoying habit of attributing words and now activities to me that have no relation to what I have said/done. I have made no attempt to 'find out forgeries and contradictions and errors of bible', at least in the context of this forum, and while having an interest in the subject as an amateur student of comparative religion I have no agenda either way. Which is why, or at least one reason why, I'm rather disappointed by your response.

While it seems Wallace agrees with Ehrman regarding the pericope adulterae, he obviously disagrees with him regarding many other things, hence the original quote. I see nothing 'ironic' in that, both men are serious and respected academics, and in this field agreement on some issues and disagreement on others is to be expected. While you have concentrated on that particular issue, the thread itself covers considerably more ground and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like some more information on both what those differences actually are and the reasons for disagreement, at least in layman's terms. However, it does rather appear that despite your pomposity your knowledge of this important field of debate is restricted to the more populist presentations of one side of it. Hopefully more informative comments will come from elsewhere in due course.
Reply

Hiroshi
04-29-2011, 01:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

As the Bible as been written by more then one person (probably Jews trying to recollect the Torah) it is not realy the Torah of Moses pbuh anymore - you can even see these add ons (deutoronmy example) which couldnt have been in the original book given to Moses pbuh - its more of a re edited version.
Of course Deuteronomy contained the final verses in it's original form. Moses wrote almost everything so naturally the writing is attributed to him even though the last verses speak of his death.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

see post 25 by gmcbroom for the different canon/books in the orthodox tradition - I'll quote him below

As for the Orthodox Canon having more I can't say why they do just that they do, anywhere from 76 to 88 depending on which Orthodox Church you belong to.
One of our reference works "All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial" pages 300-301 says:

Jewish tradition credits Ezra with beginning the compiling and cataloging of the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures, and it says that this was completed by Nehemiah. Ezra was certainly well equipped for such a work, being one of the inspired Bible writers himself as well as a priest, scholar, and official copyist of sacred writings. (Ezra 7:1-11) There is no reason to doubt the traditional view that the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures was fixed by the end of the fifth century B.C.E.


We today list 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures; the traditional Jewish canon, while including these same books, counts them as 24. Some authorities, by putting Ruth with Judges and Lamentations with Jeremiah, counted the number of books as 22, though still holding to exactly the same canonical writings. This made the number of inspired books equal the number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet. The following is the list of the 24 books according to the traditional Jewish canon:


The Law (The Pentateuch)
1. Genesis
2. Exodus
3. Leviticus
4. Numbers
5. Deuteronomy


The Prophets
6. Joshua
7. Judges
8. Samuel (First and Second together as one book)
9. Kings (First and Second together as one book)
10. Isaiah
11. Jeremiah
12. Ezekiel
13. The Twelve Prophets (Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, as one book)


The Writings (Hagiographa)
14. Psalms
15. Proverbs
16. Job
17. The Song of Solomon
18. Ruth
19. Lamentations
20. Ecclesiastes
21. Esther
22. Daniel
23. Ezra (Nehemiah was included with Ezra)
24. Chronicles (First and Second together as one book)


This was the catalog, or canon, that was accepted as inspired Scripture by Christ Jesus and the early Christian congregation. It was only from these writings that the inspired writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures quoted, and by introducing such quotations with expressions like “as it is written,” they confirmed these as being the Word of God. (Rom. 15:9) Jesus, in speaking of the complete inspired Scriptures written up till the time of his ministry, referred to the things recorded in “the law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms.” (Luke 24:44) Here “Psalms,” as the first book of the Hagiographa, is used to refer to this whole section. The last historical book to be included in the Hebrew canon was that of Nehemiah. That this was under the direction of God’s spirit is seen in that this book alone provides the starting point for reckoning Daniel’s outstanding prophecy that “from the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem” until the coming of the Messiah there would be a period of 69 prophetic weeks. (Dan. 9:25; Neh. 2:1-8; 6:15) The book of Nehemiah also provides the historical background for the last of the prophetic books, Malachi. That Malachi belongs in the canon of the inspired Scriptures cannot be doubted, since even Jesus, the Son of God, quoted it a number of times. (Matt. 11:10, 14) While similar quotations are made from the majority of the books of the Hebrew canon, all of which were written prior to Nehemiah and Malachi, the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures make no quotations from any so-called inspired writings written after the time of Nehemiah and Malachi down to the time of Christ. This confirms the traditional view of the Jews, and also the belief of the Christian congregation of the first century C.E., that the Hebrew Scripture canon ended with the writings of Nehemiah and Malachi.


As noted above, Jesus himself included all of what we now list as the 39 books of the OT in Luke 24:44 when he spoke of the things recorded in "the law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms. These were the three divisions comprising the whole of the Hebrew canon that had been fixed by the end of the fifth century B.C.E. This then clearly excludes from the canon the Apocryphal writings which the Catholics include in the OT section of their versions of the Bible.




Reply

JPR
04-29-2011, 01:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Are you even serious? or are you that delusional? I have provided you with sources that pericope adulterae was never in the bible manuscripts. If you claim that pericope adulterae is contained in the oldest bible mansucripts (codex vaticanus, sinaiticus, alexandrinus) then give us links and show us where.

If you read my whole post, you would see that at the beginning I said I couldn't post links yet on this forum :(

And no, you did not prove anything, I am serious. You just merely copy-pasted other people's works that only prove your point while there are people who would claim the contrary. No one can prove or disprove anything, they're only opinions. I'm not saying asking the question is wrong or it's not interesting but since it is consistant with the teachings of Jesus and his overall character, I don't see why this portion of his life is invalid or false. Whether it was put as part of another book, in another order or not chronological is irrelevant.


Here's another passage for everyone:
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

Now, before everyone starts jumping on the first two verses stomping on them and yelling "slander" and "lies", I do know these are not accepted by muslims. I just put them to illustrate my anterior point that the pericope Adultera fits with the teachings of Jesus and what we know of him. He did not condemn her but saved her. She stood condemned but because she believed in Jesus, she changed her life and was saved. That being said, you can read the three other verses and give out commentary.


format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Christian missionaries in my country are also actively using deceitful methods and lies to convert people to christianity, I shouldnt blame them though. They took example from Saul of Tarsus.

Wow... I now see where you are coming from. What is deceitful in bringing a message of love and forgiveness? Here's another passage:

18 If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
20 Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.
21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.
23 He who hates me hates my Father as well.

Two thousand years ago and still of actuality, you should know about it.
Reply

Ramadhan
04-30-2011, 09:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
And no, you did not prove anything, I am serious. You just merely copy-pasted other people's works that only prove your point while there are people who would claim the contrary. No one can prove or disprove anything, they're only opinions.
you keep saying this things, which actually empty,and yet have not addressed my single point from the beginning:
pericope adulterae was NEVER in the oldest bible manuscripts.

This can be proven. Codex vaticanus is stored in the vatican, while codex alexandrinus and sinaiticus are stored by the british museum. Other hebrew bibles as translated from the greek maunsripts also did not contain the pericope adulterae, which is loved by adulterous and homosexuals christians that show the acts of adulteries should not be punished.

format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
I'm not saying asking the question is wrong or it's not interesting but since it is consistant with the teachings of Jesus and his overall character, I don't see why this portion of his life is invalid or false. Whether it was put as part of another book, in another order or not chronological is irrelevant.
It was never part of johanine uncials, and even your beloved Prof. Wallace concluded so, and it has been proven that it is not in the oldest bible manuscripts.
Whether anything fits Jesus (pbuh) is different matter, the most important thing is that it is a fabrication, and falsely attributed it to the sayings and actions of Jesus (or God, as you catholics regard jesus as God).

format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
Wow... I now see where you are coming from. What is deceitful in bringing a message of love and forgiveness? Here's another passage:
Let's see one or two examples:

This is how a couple of christian missionaries told the lie that muslims worship moon god:


Another lie of christian missionary saying that it is not possible to build church in a muslim country (although there are tens of thousands if not hundred of thousands of churches in Indonesia - the world's largest muslims country)


The lies of missionaries in Haiti claiming "orphans" children, the same what they were doing in Thailand and Aceh:


The lies of missionaries who claimed as "ex-muslims":



Bear in mind, those people are not your run off the mill christians but they are christina missionaries, and they are very common.

So, those outright fabricated lies and hatred against Islam is what you call spreading truth and love.

Maybe it is part of christian tradition to call lies and fabrication as the truth, the same way they consider pericope adulterae was truth and plastered those lies against Jesus (pbuh)?
Reply

Hiroshi
04-30-2011, 09:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
If you read my whole post, you would see that at the beginning I said I couldn't post links yet on this forum :(

And no, you did not prove anything, I am serious. You just merely copy-pasted other people's works that only prove your point while there are people who would claim the contrary. No one can prove or disprove anything, they're only opinions. I'm not saying asking the question is wrong or it's not interesting but since it is consistant with the teachings of Jesus and his overall character, I don't see why this portion of his life is invalid or false. Whether it was put as part of another book, in another order or not chronological is irrelevant.

Naidamar is right, I'm afraid JPR.

Concerning John 7:53–8:11, these 12 verses have obviously been added to the original text of John’s Gospel. They are not found in the Sinaitic Manuscript or the Vatican Manuscript No. 1209, though they do appear in the sixth-century Codex Bezae and later Greek manuscripts. They are omitted, however, by most of the early versions. It is evident that they are not part of John’s Gospel. One group of Greek manuscripts places this passage at the end of John’s Gospel; another group puts it after Luke 21:38, supporting the conclusion that it is a spurious and uninspired text.
Reply

Woodrow
04-30-2011, 12:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JPR






Wow... I now see where you are coming from. What is deceitful in bringing a message of love and forgiveness? Here's another passage:
I acknowledge that many if not most missionaries are not deceitful and they do act out of a desire to share not force. But the reality is the most visible are not like that. Come out to any native American reservation and learn the truth about how Native Americans were converted. Sadly many missionaries still do act like the missionaries that helped destroy Native Americans.
Reply

Trumble
04-30-2011, 02:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I acknowledge that many if not most missionaries are not deceitful and they do act out of a desire to share not force. But the reality is the most visible are not like that. Come out to any native American reservation and learn the truth about how Native Americans were converted. Sadly many missionaries still do act like the missionaries that helped destroy Native Americans.
I'm sure. I'm also sure that the record of muslims trying to convert those from other religions, particularly my own and Hinduism, isn't exactly squeaky clean either. I'm sure that for every 'Christian' website peddling nonsense about Islam, there's an Islamic one peddling nonsense about Christianity and other religions. And I'm sure that one of the revelations from the most recent batch of Wikileaks that, somehow, was overlooked here was the large number of psychotic and/or suicidal headcases 'radicalized' by Imams and in mosques in the UK the security services hadn't been particularly bothered about before.

What I'm also sure about is that none of those things is true of any but the tiniest minority of Christians, muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or anybody else. Yet, here again another thread is dragged into a pointless Christianity bashing session, and the whole being judged and labelled on the basis of the few. In the time I've been posting here I've seen countless whines (if you'll forgive me the use of the word just this once) about how unfairly Islam is portrayed by others, and yet still we have exactly the cr*p in reverse and nobody bats an eyelid. And not just Christianity - who could forget the recent comments on Hinduism and Hindus that were both totally offensive and total BS, that were completely ignored by far more competent moderators than your utterly bizarre choice of a new trainee, who is one of the worst repeat offenders?

Comparative religion is a field of religious studies that analyzes the similarities and differences of themes, myths, rituals and concepts among the world's religions.

Hey, obviously this is an Islamic forum, but how about a little respect for other beliefs, on this particular section at least?
Reply

Zafran
04-30-2011, 02:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Of course Deuteronomy contained the final verses in it's original form. Moses wrote almost everything so naturally the writing is attributed to him even though the last verses speak of his death.



One of our reference works "All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial" pages 300-301 says:

Jewish tradition credits Ezra with beginning the compiling and cataloging of the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures, and it says that this was completed by Nehemiah. Ezra was certainly well equipped for such a work, being one of the inspired Bible writers himself as well as a priest, scholar, and official copyist of sacred writings. (Ezra 7:1-11) There is no reason to doubt the traditional view that the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures was fixed by the end of the fifth century B.C.E.


We today list 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures; the traditional Jewish canon, while including these same books, counts them as 24. Some authorities, by putting Ruth with Judges and Lamentations with Jeremiah, counted the number of books as 22, though still holding to exactly the same canonical writings. This made the number of inspired books equal the number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet. The following is the list of the 24 books according to the traditional Jewish canon:


The Law (The Pentateuch)
1. Genesis
2. Exodus
3. Leviticus
4. Numbers
5. Deuteronomy


The Prophets
6. Joshua
7. Judges
8. Samuel (First and Second together as one book)
9. Kings (First and Second together as one book)
10. Isaiah
11. Jeremiah
12. Ezekiel
13. The Twelve Prophets (Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, as one book)


The Writings (Hagiographa)
14. Psalms
15. Proverbs
16. Job
17. The Song of Solomon
18. Ruth
19. Lamentations
20. Ecclesiastes
21. Esther
22. Daniel
23. Ezra (Nehemiah was included with Ezra)
24. Chronicles (First and Second together as one book)


This was the catalog, or canon, that was accepted as inspired Scripture by Christ Jesus and the early Christian congregation. It was only from these writings that the inspired writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures quoted, and by introducing such quotations with expressions like “as it is written,” they confirmed these as being the Word of God. (Rom. 15:9) Jesus, in speaking of the complete inspired Scriptures written up till the time of his ministry, referred to the things recorded in “the law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms.” (Luke 24:44) Here “Psalms,” as the first book of the Hagiographa, is used to refer to this whole section. The last historical book to be included in the Hebrew canon was that of Nehemiah. That this was under the direction of God’s spirit is seen in that this book alone provides the starting point for reckoning Daniel’s outstanding prophecy that “from the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem” until the coming of the Messiah there would be a period of 69 prophetic weeks. (Dan. 9:25; Neh. 2:1-8; 6:15) The book of Nehemiah also provides the historical background for the last of the prophetic books, Malachi. That Malachi belongs in the canon of the inspired Scriptures cannot be doubted, since even Jesus, the Son of God, quoted it a number of times. (Matt. 11:10, 14) While similar quotations are made from the majority of the books of the Hebrew canon, all of which were written prior to Nehemiah and Malachi, the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures make no quotations from any so-called inspired writings written after the time of Nehemiah and Malachi down to the time of Christ. This confirms the traditional view of the Jews, and also the belief of the Christian congregation of the first century C.E., that the Hebrew Scripture canon ended with the writings of Nehemiah and Malachi.


As noted above, Jesus himself included all of what we now list as the 39 books of the OT in Luke 24:44 when he spoke of the things recorded in "the law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms. These were the three divisions comprising the whole of the Hebrew canon that had been fixed by the end of the fifth century B.C.E. This then clearly excludes from the canon the Apocryphal writings which the Catholics include in the OT section of their versions of the Bible.



of course Deuteronomy contained the final verses in it's original form. Moses wrote almost everything so naturally the writing is attributed to him even though the last verses speak of his death.
what? you just said before that the bible had more then one author??? now your saying Moses pbuh wrote everything - come one make your mind up. This ones a clear flaw these verses were clearly added on after Moses pbuh.

Your claiming that the Catholics keep apocryphal writings in there cannon - which is disagreed by the catholics themselves (Obvious) - as I said you cant seem to agree what is and what isnt apocryphal - what about the Orthodox church - it took a few hundred Years to sort out the bible?
Reply

JPR
05-02-2011, 05:04 PM
Yes Naidamar, my first source of information is indeed Youtube. The best place where you can find truly un-biased information. I watched a couple of videos and I just laughed really, really hard, I just hope you never turn in a scholarly paper using these sources...

Back to our the adulterous woman:

Here's a quote from Dydimus the Blind making a commentary on John 8

Translation:
"We find then in certain gospels a woman, it says, was condemned by the Jews for a sin and was being sent to be stoned in the place where that was customary to be done. The saviour, it says, when he saw her and observed that they were prepared to stone her, to those intending to cast the stones upon her he said,
"Whoever has not sinned,
let him lift up a stone and cast it."

...[that is, ] 'If anyone thinks himself not to have sinned,
let him take a stone and smite her.'

And no one dared, since they understood among themselves and knew that they themselves were also guilty in some things: so they did not dare to strike her."
- Didymus the Blind,
Commentary on Ecclesiastes,
(Tura Papyrus, discovered 1942)

Here's the kicker, since you liked to quote Metzger AND Ehrman:

At least one Greek father, Didymus the Blind (c. 350 A.D.) is known to have cited the passage extensively in his commentary on Ecclesiastes, which was discovered in the 1940's.

Metzger, writing in 1971 is hardly unaware of this important find.

In fact, Bart Ehrman, who was chosen as 'editor' of the 2nd(3rd) edition of Metzger's book (2000 A.D.), felt compelled to correct this 'oversight' with a footnote, even though he himself is against the authenticity of the passage.

The claims of liberal critics, that "No Greek Church Father prior to the 12th century comments on the passage,..." (cf. Metzger etc.) must finally be laid to rest as an inaccuracy, a misled conclusion caused by the widespread burning of the works of early commentators in the Middle Ages.


There, Dydimus is responsible for pretty much the NT cannon and he was quoting John 8 extensively. Oh, by the way, here's a piece of work by Bart Ehrman:

The New Testament Canon of Didymus the Blind
Bart D. Ehrman

Vigiliae Christianae
Vol. 37, No. 1 (Mar., 1983), pp. 1-21

In there you will find a great analysis by Bart Ehrman on how Dydimus set up the cannon of the NT.(I found this one using JSTOR)

I'm still waiting for anyone to show me using the Qu'ran or hadith the treatment of adulterous women. I've been directed to other parts of the forum but people gladly offered quotes from the Qu'ran at the beginning of my post to offer an alternative view or to confirm what I posted.

Also, no one dared or proposed to comment this:

18If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
20Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.
21They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me.
22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.
23He who hates me hates my Father as well.
Reply

gmcbroom
05-12-2011, 03:36 AM
Naidamar,
Here's an interesting question. If the Koran says the Gospel or Injeel is corrupted. How can the Koran turn around and say that proof of Mohammed is in the Gospel or Injeel? That's like saying the parts we don't like are corrupted and the parts we do like or help affirm our position are good. That doesn't strike me as logical.

Peace be with you
Reply

Zafran
05-12-2011, 04:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
Naidamar,
Here's an interesting question. If the Koran says the Gospel or Injeel is corrupted. How can the Koran turn around and say that proof of Mohammed is in the Gospel or Injeel? That's like saying the parts we don't like are corrupted and the parts we do like or help affirm our position are good. That doesn't strike me as logical.

Peace be with you
Thats not what the Quran says and the NT and the injeel are not the same thing - the Injeel of christ is a book given to christ - what you have today is an intresting works of people and paul who never met christ.

which gospel do you mean anyway - the gospel according to John, Luke, Matthew or mark???

peace
Reply

gmcbroom
05-12-2011, 04:16 AM
No book was given to Jesus, Zafran. That would have been mentioned in the New Testament and it clearly wasn't. If you say he was given a book show me where in the New Testament not the Koran.

Peace be with you
Reply

Zafran
05-12-2011, 04:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
No book was given to Jesus, Zafran. That would have been mentioned in the New Testament and it clearly wasn't. If you say he was given a book show me where in the New Testament not the Koran.

Peace be with you
How do you know no book was given to Jesus pbuh??? what do you mean it would have mentioned in NT by who Paul??? did he actaully meet christ

and if you actaully read the NT you will see that every "gospel" starts "the gospel ACCORDING TO"...... - what gospel are they refering to I wonder.

as I said before the NT is in a intresting book with people and Pauls work - but the gospel/injeel of christ is with christ pbuh - the NT is more like hadith.
Reply

Flame of Hope
05-12-2011, 04:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
Second passage is when Jesus started preaching:

1Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them. He said:
3'Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11'Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
I got no problem with any of those passages except for number 9: Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

We are not children of God. I don't understand how we can be children of God. In my opinion, this is definitely a corruption.....a mistranslation perhaps?
Reply

Zafran
05-12-2011, 04:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Flame

I got no problem with any of those passages except for number 9: Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

We are not children of God. I don't understand how we can be children of God. In my opinion, this is definitely a corruption.....a mistranslation perhaps?
Salaam

children of God metaphorically - there realy is no problems with the prayer that Islam actually disagrees with.

Peace
Reply

gmcbroom
05-12-2011, 04:50 AM
Zafran, that book doesn't exist. there would have traces fragments but there is nothing. No, what we have is the New Testament by those that wrote it, who were there the Early Church which was built on Peter by Jesus himself. The fact that many don't want to believe it doesn't make it less true. As for Paul meeting Jesus. I would say yes though not quite in the flesh and definately after his ascension. I still don't understand why people have such a problem with Paul? What he wrote and taught is sound christian doctrine. If its because he wasn't with the Apostles first commisioned by Jesus then that doesn't mean anything. Because there were actually more than 12 apostles. The twelve that were singled out were simply given more authority to help guide the fledgling Church during its beginning.

Peace be with you
Reply

Zafran
05-12-2011, 04:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
Zafran, that book doesn't exist. there would have traces fragments but there is nothing. No, what we have is the New Testament by those that wrote it, who were there the Early Church which was built on Peter by Jesus himself. The fact that many don't want to believe it doesn't make it less true. As for Paul meeting Jesus. I would say yes though not quite in the flesh and definately after his ascension. I still don't understand why people have such a problem with Paul? What he wrote and taught is sound christian doctrine. If its because he wasn't with the Apostles first commisioned by Jesus then that doesn't mean anything. Because there were actually more than 12 apostles. The twelve that were singled out were simply given more authority to help guide the fledgling Church during its beginning.

Peace be with you
Ofcourse it did - its the gospel of christ - not accrding to versions thats what you have left as I said more like hadiths then the actually thing.

Paul never met christ thats the problem.

Yes and by your logic many people dont want to believe in hinduism it doesnt make it less true either?

peace be with you as well.
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Tyrion
05-12-2011, 05:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
No book was given to Jesus, Zafran. That would have been mentioned in the New Testament and it clearly wasn't. If you say he was given a book show me where in the New Testament not the Koran.
Here's my very basic (and possibly wrong) understanding of the matter... The Quran makes it very clear that the books the Christians and the Jews are in possession of are corrupted. While they may contain some truth, they cannot be trusted as being completely from God. When the Quran speaks of the books of Jesus or Moses, it seems to be talking about a book similar to the Quran (Which, if you've read anything about Islam, was revealed as inspiration to the Prophet's (pbuh) heart. NOT in the form of a physical book) Especially in Moses' case, the word book could, and seems to, mean law. So I've heard, and I think it's fair to say, that many times when those books are mentioned in the Quran, it's speaking about the uncorrupted truth/message/laws of those particular prophets.

I'm not sure if any of that was accurate, since I'm running on about 3 hours of sleep and studying for finals. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Reply

gmcbroom
05-13-2011, 09:39 PM
Tyrion,
The problems as I see it. Just my opinion but hey here it is. Jesus is real I'd say was; but in reality is, is more accurate from the Christian standpoint anyway as he's God. Now in those days there were crazy people just like there are today. I'm sure some thought they were God as well. The difference is Jesus's Virgin birth (no prophet can say that...just him). His miracles that had multiple witnesses; some as little as 2, to as many as 3,000 people witnesses In those days everything needed witnesses to be legally binding and he had them in droves. Lastly, his message and that fact that he clearly fufilled jewish prophecy, doubt me just look at the Old Testament Psalms 21, 22, and 23 thats what happened at the crucifixtion and he knew it as he started to say the very first line of psalm 22 before he gave up his spirit.

Now I know muslims rever the Koran as their Holy Book. I can understand that. But I have to admit that I'm bothered by a few things. The first is how come you needed witnesses to do anything legally binding in Jesus's day but not in Mohammeds. In essence he spoke what Gabriel told him and that is the Koran thats written down. But no one saw Gabriel. That seems strange that Gabriel appeared to people yet not to Mohammed he just squeezed him and told him what to say. It makes me think one of 2 things.

1) It wasn't Gabriel but Lucifer (remember he can appear as angel of light and make anything beautiful even prose). The prayers you say and how you worship, are truly beautiful and draws many to Islam even priests (I did see Naidamars youtubes he posted). I can admit that.

2) It was a lie by a clever man that preyed on those around him to gain power which he did. (I know it sounds stupid but how else can you explain his Abrogation of texts and how he seemed exempt from things his followers couldn't do and lastly if he was a prophet how come he wasn't allowed to speak at the end of his life we'll knever know what his last words were do to someone interevening that doesn't strike me as something God to happen to his prophet would allow. I know many have said its not just a religion but a way to govern ones life but its too much like a political powewr grab to me complete with corruption at the top.

Again these are just my opinions but I figure there important as they explain why I couldn't become a muslim.

peace be with you
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Perseveranze
05-13-2011, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JPR
Nice, I think some extremists should be shown this verse instead of giving muslims a bad name in the press.

Thanks Siam for these Surahs.
Not really that easy to convince someone who lives in a worn torn country, who's wife/sister have been raped and children/family murdered.
Reply

Perseveranze
05-13-2011, 11:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
2) It was a lie by a clever man that preyed on those around him to gain power which he did. (I know it sounds stupid but how else can you explain his Abrogation of texts and how he seemed exempt from things his followers couldn't do and lastly if he was a prophet how come he wasn't allowed to speak at the end of his life we'll knever know what his last words were do to someone interevening that doesn't strike me as something God to happen to his prophet would allow. I know many have said its not just a religion but a way to govern ones life but its too much like a political powewr grab to me complete with corruption at the top.

By saying "lie" your going against what some very very clever people in the modern era would find hard to believe. Let me break down to you how difficult it is to find an "alternative possibility" to Muhammad(pbuh)'s case other than the divine intervention scenario -

William Montgomery Watt states: “ Only a profound belief in himself and his mission explains Muhammad's readiness to endure hardship and persecution during the Meccan period when from a secular point of view there was no prospect of success. Without sincerity how could he have won the allegiance and even devotion of men of strong and upright character like Abu-Bakr and 'Umar ? ... There is thus a strong case for holding that Muhammad was sincere. If in some respects he was mistaken, his mistakes were not due to deliberate lying or imposture[72] ....the important point is that the message was not the product of Muhammad's conscious mind. He believed that he could easily distinguish between his own thinking and these revelations. His sincerity in this belief must be accepted by the modern historian, for this alone makes credible the development of a great religion. The further question, however, whether the messages came from Muhammad's unconscious, or the collective unconscious functioning in him, or from some divine source, is beyond the competence of the historian.[

You see the issue with the whole "deciept" theory? Even the "mad man" theory is extremely flawed and it doesn't need a Muslim or even a Genius who has studied the Prophet's life to have to say this. The issue Non-Muslim Intellects have with Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)'s character, is that they really can't give an explanation that would come anywhere near close to logical.

They face the same issue with the Quran anyone who actually learns arabic and then takes a deep study in the Quran would again find some inconsistency when trying to explain where the Prophet(pbuh) had his source from.

The famous Arabist H. Gibb comments:

“Though, to be sure, the question of the literary merit is one not to be judged on a priori grounds but in relation to the genius of Arabic language; and no man in fifteen hundred years has ever played on that deep toned instrument with such power, such boldness, and such range of emotional effect as Mohammad did.”

Dawood, an Iraqi Jewish Scholar in his translation of the Qur’an comments on the sum effect of these and numerous other literary qualities of the Quran, describing it as a ‘literary masterpiece’:

“The Koran is the earliest and by far the finest work of Classical Arabic prose… It is acknowledged that the Koran is not only one of the most influential books of prophetic literature but also a literary masterpiece in its own right… translations have, in my opinion, practically failed to convey both the meaning and the rhetorical grandeur of the original.”

The Qur’anic choice of words coupled with the power of sound, conveys meanings in a unique way. This feature of the Qur’an produces images and describes events as though they were happening in front of the reader. Johns explains,

“It is the language itself which constitutes the iconic tradition. Not a single word can be taken or heard in isolation. All represent nuclei of meaning that are cumulative and cohere, serving as triggers to activate the profoundest depths of religious consciousness.”

The rhetorical and cohesive components of the Qur’anic text cannot be divorced from each other. If the Qur’anic text were stripped of these elements, the remaining text would cease to be the Qur’an and neither would it not sound like the Qur’an. Arbuthnot states:

“…the Koran is regarded as a specimen of the purest Arabic, written in half poetry and half prose. It has been said that in some cases grammarians have adopted their rules to agree with certain phrases and expressions used in it, and that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none has as yet succeeded.”


Montet in his translation of the Qur’an explains this unique Qur’anic feature,

“All those who are acquainted with the Qur’an in Arabic agree in praising the beauty of this religious book; its grandeur of form is so sublime that no translation into any European language can allow us to appreciate it.

This has rested at the core of many historical studies of the Qur’an, as many have attempted to answer the central question of authorship. For Bucaille,

“The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur’an untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature?”

The following section taken from Draz’s book “An Eternal Challenge” probes this point further,


“When we consider carefully the timing of the revelation of the Qur’anic passages and surahs and their arrangement, we are profoundly astonished. We almost belie what we see and hear. We then begin to ask ourselves for an explanation of this highly improbable phenomenon: is it not true that this new passage of revelation has just been heard as new, addressing a particular event which is its only concern? Yet it sounds as though it is neither new nor separate from the rest. It seems as if it has been, along with the rest of the Qur’an, perfectly impressed on this man’s mind long before he has recited it to us. It has been fully engraved on his heart before its composition in the words he recites. How else can it unite so perfectly and harmoniously parts and pieces that do not naturally come together?… Is it as result of an experiment that follows a spontaneous thought? That could not be the case. When each part was put in its position, the one who placed them never had a new thought or introduced any modification or re-arrangement.


How then could he have determined his plan? And how could he have made his intention so clear in advance?… When we consider such detailed instructions on the arrangement of passages and surahs we are bound to conclude that there is a complete and detailed plan assigning the position of each passage before they are all revealed. Indeed the arrangement is made before the reasons leading to the revelation of any passage occur, and even before the start of the preliminary causes of such events… Such are the plain facts about the arrangement of the Qur’an as it was revealed in separate verses, passages and surahs over a period of 23 years. What does that tell us about its source?”
So you see my Christian brother, forget Muslims who already know this stuff, even the Non-Muslim intellects, even the Arab one's attest to the mysterious wonder of this Book. And this is the greatest problem people will have with Islam, the haters atleast, if you don't believe it then disapprove it? And none will be able to, none has been able to, even these amatuer anti-islam sites struggle despite twisting and changing the meaning, having extremely little knowledge on the Arabic and the manner of each revelation, even the life of the Prophet(pbuh) do they struggle to answer the ultimate question regarding his Prophethood.

“If you are in doubt of what We have revealed to Our messenger, then produce one chapter like it. Call upon all your helpers, besides Allah, if you are truthful” [Qur'an 2: 23]
Reply

Woodrow
05-14-2011, 12:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
Zafran, that book doesn't exist. there would have traces fragments but there is nothing. No, what we have is the New Testament by those that wrote it, who were there the Early Church which was built on Peter by Jesus himself. The fact that many don't want to believe it doesn't make it less true. As for Paul meeting Jesus. I would say yes though not quite in the flesh and definately after his ascension. I still don't understand why people have such a problem with Paul? What he wrote and taught is sound christian doctrine. If its because he wasn't with the Apostles first commisioned by Jesus then that doesn't mean anything. Because there were actually more than 12 apostles. The twelve that were singled out were simply given more authority to help guide the fledgling Church during its beginning.

Peace be with you
Actually fragments of the Injil do exist. But in a place you would least expect them and that is in the NT most likely in the gospels of John, Luke, Mark, and Matthew. these are the words directly attributed to being spoken by Jesus(as) the problem is since no original Aramaic of Jesus(as)'s words have been found we do not know how accurate the translations are. Neither do we know if all of his words or just some came from the Injil. For some reason it seems nobody saw any value of saving Jesus(as)'s words in their original language and as a separate compilation. That would have been the Injil. The Apostles seem to have placed greater emphasis on his surroundings and who he was speaking to, then on the value of His words.

If you take all of His words found in the 4 gospels and remove the duplicates keeping only the earliest, you will find there are very few words preserved. You will also find they only come from a handful of events. Jesus(as) had his public ministry for 3 years. In that time he must have said many things of great importance. Yet nobody saved his words. where did his words go? Because we can not find any trace of them does that mean they did not exist? Surly he must have said more than the few words that were saved although only the Greek translation seems to have been saved.
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