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Predator
04-30-2011, 09:55 AM
he said

""I am God. You too are God. The only difference between you and me is that while I am aware of it, you are completely unaware."

Despite Sai Baba having previously assured his followers that he would not die anytime soon, Hindu guru Sathya Sai Baba was hospitalised a month ago and needed breathing support and dialysis. Two days ago doctors announced he was suffering from multiple organ failure and had stopped responding to treatment. After the 86-year-old's death was announced yesterday morning. Narendra Nayak, President of Federation of Indian Rationalist Associations, speaking before the guru's death said: "Sai Baba is a third rate prestidigitator and manipulator who is now paralysed and he cannot cure himself. How can he cure others? There is a saying in English – physician heal thyself. So I would say Baba heal yourself."

The guru had a vast following and his movement established ashrams in more than 126 countries. His supporters included high-ranking politicians, movie stars, industrialists and athletes. His death has set off speculation as to who will inherit the leadership of his network. The late Sri Sathya Sai Baba was a Living God to millions of his followers

Sai Baba had also been denounced by the Indian Rationalists Association, who debunked his "miracles" and pointed to numerous videos available on the internet which show the one-time conjurer producing items from various places where he has concealed them, including his mop of hair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yblhsr1O4IQ


Even this magician is better than Sai Baba
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtNAq5m2LSg


He was never slow to proclaim his own divinity, insisting that his arrival on earth was prophesied by Jesus, that he was the one who originally sent Jesus to Earth and that he was clearly the Lamb of God because his name – Ba Ba – is the noise a sheep makes. lol

But for his growing army of critics, he was nothing short of a child-molesting fraud who had for years taken advantage of the gullibility of his young male followers to sexually abuse them during private audiences in his rooms. For many years the US government warned its citizens to stay away from the ashram because of the risk and UNESCO, the UN's Educational, Social, and Cultural Organisation, pulled out of a conference at the ashram citing deep concerns about "widely-reported allegations of sexual abuse".

In 1974 Sai Baba announced that he would live to the ripe age of 96. his failure to reach the age at which he had claimed he would die should be enough to convince people Sai Baba was no God

Well Baa baaa black sheep, good journey to the other world before your next "rebirth"" , send my regards to the abysss


When Truth is heard against Falsehood, Falsehood perishes. For Falsehood by its nature is bound to perish." Al-Qur'an 17:81
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Ramadhan
04-30-2011, 11:01 AM
Thanks for the laugh. Good one on a rainy day like today.
One time a friend was dressed up as sai baba for a costume party, he wore orange wig, though. hillarious.
I'd had no idea who sai baba was.

Earthlings, I come in peace:

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GuestFellow
04-30-2011, 11:24 AM
I never even heard of him until he died.
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yas2010
04-30-2011, 11:35 AM
Its a disgrace that some muslims in India 'followed' him too.
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M.I.A.
04-30-2011, 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by




Airforce


;1432914
he cannot cure himself. How can he cure others?

yep that's sure been said before, sure its easy to mock somebodies understanding of life and god.. these things are hard to put into words in a way that is acceptable to others (or not open to misunderstanding)

anyway may allah swt have mercy on him.
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-30-2011, 12:19 PM
:sl:
I think that its is so weird that he was placed in a transparent coffin. who on earth wants to see a dead body.

Despite Sai Baba having previously assured his followers that he would not die anytime soon,
if you can be born, then there is no reason why you wont die.


generally speaking i wonder if people who worship the dead knew what the decreased person goes through of decomposition, what kind of divinity they would claim to them.
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Ramadhan
04-30-2011, 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
yep that's sure been said before, sure its easy to mock somebodies understanding of life and god.. these things are hard to put into words in a way that is acceptable to others (or not open to misunderstanding)
I'm sure it is more than appropriate to mock a person who claim he's God. not only that, sai baba purposefully deceived so many people so many years.

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
anyway may allah swt have mercy on him.
I'm not sure it is appropriate to make a du'a to ask Allah to forgive a person who claimed he was God. That would be like us making du'a to Allah asking for forgiveness for fir'aun.
The only thing that would save Sai Baba now would be if he was indeed insane during all the years he claimed he was God.
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Dagless
04-30-2011, 12:49 PM
I heard about this a few days ago. If people believed him to be god then that is their freedom of belief. Maybe if he had genuinely believed himself to be god it would have been easier to understand, but the videos show he knew he was tricking people. That makes it so much worse imo.
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Predator
04-30-2011, 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by Dagless
I heard about this a few days ago. If people believed him to be god then that is their freedom of belief. Maybe if he had genuinely believed himself to be god it would have been easier to understand, but the videos show he knew he was tricking people. That makes it so much worse imo.
Anyone claiming to be God should pass all 4 tests of Surah Ikhlas

1. He is the One and Only

Result : FAIL

There was already another Sai baba before him

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirdi_Sai_Baba


2.He is absolute eternal

FAIL. DIED last week ( (23 November 1926 – 24 April 2011)

3. He does not beget and he is never begotten

FAIL : He had a father and mother.


4. There is nothing comparable to him in the whole universe

FAIL : Tons and tons of deceivers have existed for centuries
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M.I.A.
04-30-2011, 01:21 PM
i did not know of him, the response i made was from OP.

"I am God. You too are God. The only difference between you and me is that while I am aware of it, you are completely unaware."

everybody serves god, if you want to or not.. the difference that i can see is that a person has elevated himself into a position to reach people.. what he taught and who he influenced and to what end i do not know.

the quoted line is much better understood as all of us being slaves of allah.. this is why islam is the truth without doubt. if you have anybody who could make these links to people they may better understand islam or the truth.

we have only ourselves to blame for our mockery..this is not the best way to influence anybody towards the truth.

anyway, may allah swt have mercy on me.. my wordplay is often inflammatory
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Ramadhan
04-30-2011, 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
everybody serves god, if you want to or not.. the difference that i can see is that a person has elevated himself into a position to reach people.. what he taught and who he influenced and to what end i do not know. the quoted line is much better understood as all of us being slaves of allah.. this is why islam is the truth without doubt. if you have anybody who could make these links to people they may better understand islam or the truth.
Are we reading the same article and same sentences?
Or has my command of english gone that badly?

Let us read again.

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
"I am God. You too are God. The only difference between you and me is that while I am aware of it, you are completely unaware."
I don't get how you go from "I am God. You too are God" to "He is a slave of Allah"

From this I can only draw conclusion that your definition of God = Slave of Allah

You are free to re-define reality and words, but please spare me from your definition of god.
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Haya emaan
04-30-2011, 03:09 PM
never heard of this before...
how people are so blind to follow such man.. aren't they aware of his tricks at all..
i think these types of people who follow such man are the one called BLIND DEAF AND DUMP in QURAN
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yas2010
04-30-2011, 03:15 PM
From what i have read of this indivdual and his PR team. It was a great big money making con! Sai baba was revered by influential politicans and high profile celebs within india.

If you read about sects and there leaders and followers you will see many of the deviant characteristics. Sai Baba was also investigated for 'disgusting' acts toward children and his so called 'followers' revered him as a 'God'.


May Allah (swt) ensure that we achieve the straight path. Insh'Allah.
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M.I.A.
04-30-2011, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar

Are we reading the same article and same sentences?
Or has my command of english gone that badly?

Let us read again.



I don't get how you go from "I am God. You too are God" to "He is a slave of Allah"

From this I can only draw conclusion that your definition of God = Slave of Allah

You are free to re-define reality and words, but please spare me from your definition of god.
well that is your logic for all to see.
my definition of god is as in the quran.. it seems beyond me to explain him
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Predator
04-30-2011, 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
well that is your logic for all to see.
my definition of god is as in the quran.. it seems beyond me to explain him
As shown Sai baba doesnt fit the definition of chapter 112 in the Quran hence cant be God .

Cant understand what you meant by "God" ?

If you mean its a metaphor for a Godly person like Prophet or Saints . Then What sort of saint will go about deceiving people to gain attention . Its just ridiculous
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Flame of Hope
04-30-2011, 10:43 PM
:sl:

I don't know who is dumber. The one who claims to be God or the one who believes and follows the one who claims to be God.

It's highly disgusting (for me) to even imagine that a man who has been bestowed the power of thought and reason can worship anything or anyone besides Allah. +o(
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M.I.A.
04-30-2011, 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by Airforce
As shown Sai baba doesnt fit the definition of chapter 112 in the Quran hence cant be God .

Cant understand what you meant by "God" ?

If you mean its a metaphor for a Godly person like Prophet or Saints . Then What sort of saint will go about deceiving people to gain attention . Its just ridiculous
i didnt mean any comparison except for that i could understand how god works through all things and yet is free of all wants and needs, no vessel is needed for gods will to be done... all things are subservient.
for him to have claimed himself as god would be very bad, pharaoh like even.. but the article says something subtly different which would at first sight indicates poor wording and explanation.. not shirk.

anyway the only way for anybody to be certain of a persons character is to spend a lot of time in there company, with unclouded eyes.
the value of fighting or lively debate.
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Flame of Hope
04-30-2011, 11:06 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by yas2010
Its a disgrace that some muslims in India 'followed' him too.
It certainly is a disgrace, sister! This video tells us a bit about those "Muslims":

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Ramadhan
05-01-2011, 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
well that is your logic for all to see. my definition of god is as in the quran.. it seems beyond me to explain him
If you want to know the clear definition of God, read QS. Al Ikhlas (QS. 112) and QS. Al Baqarah:255
Please read your qur'an.

Tell me which part of the Qur'an that says God is a human who sexually abuse little boys (it is reported that Sai Baba sexually abuse little boys), a human who use tricks (not even magic) to deceive others as to make him appear as if he is divine, a human who wrongly predicted his own death, a human who died?
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Ramadhan
05-01-2011, 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
but the article says something subtly different which would at first sight indicates poor wording and explanation.. not shirk.
Did you not even watch the video posted by zak?
I can give you loads of links about sai baba, including wikipedia, but I don't think you will read them as you seem to be wrapped in your own opinion about things, disregarding evidence, including what the Qur'an says.

in the youtube clips, sai baba is using crude tricks to "conjure up" golds, ash, necklace, and other little things to trick people into thinking he has divine power, and thus make the poor people (not just figurative poor, but real poor) to hand in their money to him for "donation".
If that is god, you are free to worship and follow him, but please change the religion status in your profile so you don't deceive others.
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CosmicPathos
05-01-2011, 02:00 AM
I think we should at least, from a humanist point of view, say that it is saddening to hear that Sai Baba has died. He did not claim himself to be a god in the way Firawun did (Firauwn rejected existence of Allah, I think Sai Baba believed that Bhagwan existed in heavens). It is common in Hinduism to believe that pious humans are incarnations of God. Sai baba clearly told his followers that there in is god within them too, not just sai baba. This is not a new thing among South Asian religions. Krishna was god incarnate. Vishnu was god incarnate. Very different words from what firawn would have said. I am not too sure about the immoral actions of Sai baba like molesting kids so I will remain silent on that.

I for one will not support Indian Rationalist Association in critique of Sai Baba. Why? These rationalists will equally make fun of my Nabi Muhammad's miracles of splitting the moon and say that he had epilepsy to believe he was the chosen Prophet. I cannot support my enemy (indian rationlists) for defeating the common enemy: Sai baba's ideology.

may Allah forgive me for saying anything that He doesnt like. I maintain my stance against Indian rationalists, who are basically bunch of atheists.
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K.Venugopal
07-24-2011, 05:01 AM
The protagonist of this thread, Satya Sai Baba, claimed he was God and many (they say in millions) accepted him as God. The more relevant point is not what he claimed, but that supposedly millions accepted his claim. Any mad person can say he is God but would anyone accept such a person? Therefore it can only be that either those millions were all mad or there was something to Sai Baba's claim that they agreed with. It cannot be said that all his followers were mad because it included some of the most educated and well-known people and a vast number of ordinary folks. So the question is, what in Sai Baba's claim to be God found acceptance in people? The answer is simple - Hindus who believe in God also believe that God comes down to earth periodically taking a human form (or any other form He may decide) to uphold divine values (called Dharma or harmony in Hinduism). His followers would have judged his claims to divinity on the basis of his activities and would have convinced themselves that he is indeed God. His achievements are remarkable by any standards. He built free educational institutions, hospitals, water dams and innumerable small institutions of social services. Above all, he strove diligently to unite all religions (he even built a fine mosque for the Muslims) and set people on the spiritual path. I can hear many say that these things have been done by many people, so what is so great? The difference is that all the institutions he started are rare models for others to emulate and many institutions around the world not otherwise connected with him have recorded his influence in moulding similar institutions under them. His death is but natural because he inhabited a human body and would have chosen to leave it when he completed his mission.

It is now for history to judge how influential he has been in effecting his avowed mission to uphold harmony in this world.
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K.Venugopal
07-24-2011, 05:54 AM



http://sathyasaibaba.files.wordpress...pg?w=281&h=248

Bhagawan’s Divine Discourse On Eid-Ul-Fitr 1978 In The Mosque At Puttaparthi
Ramazan is the month when the Holy Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad. It was a divine Communication, a Bhagavad Vani, reaching him through waves or Tarangas of Divine Vibrations. The Vedas too were revealed in the same manner by God to the Rishis. The Bible, the Avesta, and the other great scriptures of other religions also had similar Divine Inspiration as the reason for their validity. Since the Qur’an originated from God, it cannot be changed or modified, to suit ‘changed’ conditions. They are all eternal verities. The Qur’an contains expositions of the five vital principles or pancha prana of human life: mercy, truth, sacrifice, love and tolerance. These principles, really basic to the good life are emphasised in all religious texts of humanity. If one assimilates the truths declared in the Qur’an, they can live in full concord with all others. No religion praises violence or falsehood.
Fasting was laid down during the Ramazan, in order to make people experience the benefits of sense control and in order to cleanse the spirit and the passions of man, so that he may be rendered fit to approach God. Fasting is also referred to as Upavas; Upa means ‘near’ and vas means `living’. So, Upavas means, living very near God. The Ramazan fast is intended to enable Muslims to set aside all sensory desires and to spend an entire month in the Holy Presence of God. As man gets the cool heartening breeze when he approaches the air conditioner, or fan, so too when man approaches God, his sorrows will vanish and he will have his good aspects flourish by His Grace. Cultivate during this Month of God all the Godly qualities, charity, unity, love, service, detachment, tolerance. And, see that you practise them, not only at home, but, spread the joy outside your household also.
Fasting entails not merely abstaining from food and drink from sun rise to sun set, but, the mastery of the more difficult discipline of giving up violence, falsehood, anger, envy, and the maligning of others. One may have to face ridicule and persecution, obstructions and troubles when he decides to lead the good, holy life. Prophet Muhammad was persecuted thus and he had to leave Mecca for Medina. Jesus was crucified for the meek and the mute. As the Lord’s Will assumes the form of a tree—the Kalpavriksha—in order to be a perennial source of sustenance and sweetness to others, great persons have suffered voluntarily, for the sake of their beneficent beliefs. In spite of hurdles and handicaps, Prophet Muhammad did not give up his conviction; He declared that there was only One God and that His Name was Allah. He commanded his disciples to serve mankind, and treat all others as fellow beings, children of the same God. Study the Gift of God to man, namely the Quran and holds its teachings as valid for all time, because they are universal and basic.
The Event
Puttaparthi village in Anantapur district, Andhra Pradesh, India, has become a holy place for millions all over the World, since Bhagawan Sri Sathya Sai Baba was born there and since Prasanthi Nilayam (the Abode of Peace), the hub of the world wide Sai Revolution (through the revival and promotion of Truth, Righteousness, Peace and Love) is also situated there. Bhagawan found that the Muslims of Puttaparthi had to trek about four miles to Bukkapatnam every time they had to pray in a mosque, since they did not have a place of worship in their own village and hence built a mosque for in the village, truly an architectural gem, charming, simple and spacious.
The mosque was completed and consecrated in time for the Ramazan festival in August 1978. Sathya Sai Baba paid a visit to the Mosque, on the Id Festival day. A large assemblage of Indian and Foreign devotees and also villagers of all faiths were present to share in the joy that Bhagawan Sri Satya Sai Baba gave to the Muslims that day, when He visited the Mosque. Sri. G. Fakhruddin the Convenor of the village Mosque committee while paying the homage of welcome said that the Light and Love that shone in and through the founders of all religions were physically present in Sathya Sai Baba today. He expressed eternal gratitude to Bhagawan Baba for showing the Muslims the Pathway to God and for re-enforcing their belief in the universal aspects of all religions. Sathya Sai Baba then granted His discourse in Telugu which was understood by all the Muslims present there. (From Sanathana Sarathi, Aug, 1978)
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Dagless
07-24-2011, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
The protagonist of this thread, Satya Sai Baba, claimed he was God and many (they say in millions) accepted him as God. The more relevant point is not what he claimed, but that supposedly millions accepted his claim. Any mad person can say he is God but would anyone accept such a person? Therefore it can only be that either those millions were all mad or there was something to Sai Baba's claim that they agreed with. It cannot be said that all his followers were mad because it included some of the most educated and well-known people and a vast number of ordinary folks.
Nobody said they were mad; only that they did not have the same information. If they had seen the tricks from a different angle then they too would have questioned what they saw.


Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
So the question is, what in Sai Baba's claim to be God found acceptance in people? The answer is simple - Hindus who believe in God also believe that God comes down to earth periodically taking a human form (or any other form He may decide) to uphold divine values (called Dharma or harmony in Hinduism).
Do they also believe it's ok for him to use simple conjuring tricks to affirm his divinity?


Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
His followers would have judged his claims to divinity on the basis of his activities and would have convinced themselves that he is indeed God. His achievements are remarkable by any standards. He built free educational institutions, hospitals, water dams and innumerable small institutions of social services.
It is good when people do good things, nobody is questioning that. However, how would we see people like Nelson Mandela if he decided to call himself God? What if he started using ash pellets to trick people? and people found piles of money in his house after he died? I'm sure he would have lots of followers but it would only blemish his reputation with most.


Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Above all, he strove diligently to unite all religions (he even built a fine mosque for the Muslims) and set people on the spiritual path. I can hear many say that these things have been done by many people, so what is so great? The difference is that all the institutions he started are rare models for others to emulate and many institutions around the world not otherwise connected with him have recorded his influence in moulding similar institutions under them. His death is but natural because he inhabited a human body and would have chosen to leave it when he completed his mission.
3 ongoing wars, famine, a handful of humanitarian crisis, disease, corrupt dictators, and the world economy on shaky ground....

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Predator
07-25-2011, 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by Dagless
and people found piles of money in his house after he died? I'm sure he would have lots of followers but it would only blemish his reputation with most.
True .Tons of cash has tumbled out . What was he doing with that money ? He is a deceiver and not very different from the corrupt politician who have hidden miilions of black money in swiss banks which could have otherwise eliminated poverty from the country

http://articles.economictimes.indiat...athya-sai-baba
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K.Venugopal
07-26-2011, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by Dagless
Nobody said they were mad; only that they did not have the same information. If they had seen the tricks from a different angle then they too would have questioned what they saw.

Do they also believe it's ok for him to use simple conjuring tricks to affirm his divinity?

It is good when people do good things, nobody is questioning that. However, how would we see people like Nelson Mandela if he decided to call himself God? What if he started using ash pellets to trick people? and people found piles of money in his house after he died? I'm sure he would have lots of followers but it would only blemish his reputation with most.

3 ongoing wars, famine, a handful of humanitarian crisis, disease, corrupt dictators, and the world economy on shaky ground....
Your comments are reasonable. However, if the thrust of your argument is that Sai Baba could have solved all man's problems if he was God is a moot question because no other God believed by others have solved all man's problems either. So it could be said that God accomplishes whatever mission he sets out to. About using conjuring tricks, it is not as if conjuring tricks are necessarily performed to cheat people. Many perform it as a genuine show of mastery of the art. In Sai Baba's case he has used it only to draw people to his deeper teachings. The point is not what if Nelson Mandela called himself God. He did not do it. In fact, nobody in recorded history has called himself God and found such acceptance among the masses as Satya Sai Baba. This is indeed the greatest miracle he performed. And about piles of money found at his residence, they are loose change compared to the money he has got in donation and he spent to build and run his multifarious service projects. His organisation has duly paid taxes on them.
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Dagless
07-27-2011, 02:41 AM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
About using conjuring tricks, it is not as if conjuring tricks are necessarily performed to cheat people. Many perform it as a genuine show of mastery of the art. In Sai Baba's case he has used it only to draw people to his deeper teachings.
If he had said it was a trick then maybe your point would be valid. The way it stands it is misleading people. If a conman did the same thing how would you distinguish? Would it be ok if the conman told everyone to just get along?

Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
The point is not what if Nelson Mandela called himself God. He did not do it.
It was an example :D

Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
In fact, nobody in recorded history has called himself God and found such acceptance among the masses as Satya Sai Baba.This is indeed the greatest miracle he performed.
Plenty of people have called themselves God and had acceptance. Kings, Emperors, Pharaohs... in fact don't Rastafarians still call Haile Salassie god even though he died in the 70s?
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Ramadhan
07-27-2011, 05:50 AM
Originally Posted by Dagless
Plenty of people have called themselves God and had acceptance. Kings, Emperors, Pharaohs...

Yep... emperors of china and japan claimed to be God descending from the sky and had followers and acceptance of many more than sai baba ever did.
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K.Venugopal
07-27-2011, 06:56 AM
Originally Posted by Dagless
If he had said it was a trick then maybe your point would be valid. The way it stands it is misleading people. If a conman did the same thing how would you distinguish? Would it be ok if the conman told everyone to just get along?
It has been said by all scriptures that the judgement upon any action would be based on the motive of the actor. Whether Sai Baba’s actions were for deceiving people or to bring them to spirituality is a judgement that would be judged differently by different people. Who knows what the judgement by God would be?

Originally Posted by Dagless
Plenty of people have called themselves God and had acceptance. Kings, Emperors, Pharaohs... in fact don't Rastafarians still call Haile Salassie god even though he died in the 70s?
Indeed many have proclaimed themselves as God. But with followers it is often the case of “My God the Greatest!” Nevertheless, an objective assessment would make it plain that in the case of Sai Baba, the number of people who believe he is God is phenomenal.
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K.Venugopal
07-27-2011, 07:03 AM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan


Yep... emperors of china and japan claimed to be God descending from the sky and had followers and acceptance of many more than sai baba ever did.
Is it not a miracle that without State power, one born of poor parents in an unknown place should go on to proclaim his divinity and find acceptance by a large number of people, even amongst people who are not traditionally Hindus?
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Ramadhan
07-27-2011, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Is it not a miracle that without State power, one born of poor parents in an unknown place should go on to proclaim his divinity and find acceptance by a large number of people, even amongst people who are not traditionally Hindus?
It's not miracle.
He was a fraud, and there has been many in history of frauds who duped so many people, in the end people found out though, just like sai baba.
In indonesia even, there is this woman who claimed she met god, and then later she claimed she god incarnate, and she has many followers too.
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K.Venugopal
07-27-2011, 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan

It's not miracle.
He was a fraud, and there has been many in history of frauds who duped so many people, in the end people found out though, just like sai baba.
In indonesia even, there is this woman who claimed she met god, and then later she claimed she god incarnate, and she has many followers too.
You say Sai Baba is a fraud. I say he was not. Now what?
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Predator
07-27-2011, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

Indeed many have proclaimed themselves as God. But with followers it is often the case of “My God the Greatest!” Nevertheless, an objective assessment would make it plain that in the case of Sai Baba, the number of people who believe he is God is phenomenal.
And the number of people who believe he isnt god but a deceiver is much more phenomenal
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K.Venugopal
07-27-2011, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Airforce
And the number of people who believe he isnt god but a deceiver is much more phenomenal
It may be so today. But what if the position changes tomorrow?
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Dagless
07-27-2011, 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
It has been said by all scriptures that the judgement upon any action would be based on the motive of the actor. Whether Sai Baba’s actions were for deceiving people or to bring them to spirituality is a judgement that would be judged differently by different people. Who knows what the judgement by God would be?
The point is he used the tricks to persuade people he was god. Other than the tricks there is no evidence to prove he was god. As has been mentioned before in this thread there have been people in history who have done more good and those who had more followers, so these things cannot prove he was god.

Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Indeed many have proclaimed themselves as God. But with followers it is often the case of “My God the Greatest!” Nevertheless, an objective assessment would make it plain that in the case of Sai Baba, the number of people who believe he is God is phenomenal.
As were the number of people who believed the Pharaohs were gods. This is not proof of divinity. A majority of people believed the world was flat at one point in time too, but after new information was presented they realised they were wrong. Now Sai Baba's tricks have been shown they cannot be used to prove he was divine. What proof do you have other than his word?
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K.Venugopal
07-28-2011, 01:12 AM
Originally Posted by Dagless
The point is he used the tricks to persuade people he was god. Other than the tricks there is no evidence to prove he was god. As has been mentioned before in this thread there have been people in history who have done more good and those who had more followers, so these things cannot prove he was god. As were the number of people who believed the Pharaohs were gods. This is not proof of divinity. A majority of people believed the world was flat at one point in time too, but after new information was presented they realised they were wrong. Now Sai Baba's tricks have been shown they cannot be used to prove he was divine. What proof do you have other than his word?
At one time, as you said, people believed the world was flat. They no longer do so now. Does it not mean beliefs and opinions can change over time? Then how can we be sure opinions about Sai Baba’s divinity will not change either way in future? Right now, for many people his word is good enough that he is God.

God is that which in common parlance is referred to as “I” when we speak. It is difficult to say what “I” is. It is easier to say what “I” is not. We could start the discovery straight away by understanding that I am not my shirt, my fingers etc., because even if we lose them, I remain. When the body dies, does the “I” remain? When we say someone died we mean so-and-so lost his life. Does it not mean that so-and-so and his life are two separate things? So-and-so, we can see, lying dead ready to be buried. But where has life gone?
Reply

Dagless
07-28-2011, 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
At one time, as you said, people believed the world was flat. They no longer do so now. Does it not mean beliefs and opinions can change over time? Then how can we be sure opinions about Sai Baba’s divinity will not change either way in future? Right now, for many people his word is good enough that he is God.
I don't see how they could. I mean exposed tricks cannot be unexposed, and he also died which is itself quite final.

Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
God is that which in common parlance is referred to as “I” when we speak. It is difficult to say what “I” is. It is easier to say what “I” is not. We could start the discovery straight away by understanding that I am not my shirt, my fingers etc., because even if we lose them, I remain. When the body dies, does the “I” remain? When we say someone died we mean so-and-so lost his life. Does it not mean that so-and-so and his life are two separate things? So-and-so, we can see, lying dead ready to be buried. But where has life gone?
How does this relate to evidence that he was god? As I said before plenty of people have said they are god so how can his claim be substantiated? If you want to blindly believe he is god then that's your choice, but the bottom line is there is no evidence of divinity.
Reply

K.Venugopal
07-28-2011, 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by Dagless
I don't see how they could. I mean exposed tricks cannot be unexposed, and he also died which is itself quite final.How does this relate to evidence that he was god? As I said before plenty of people have said they are god so how can his claim be substantiated? If you want to blindly believe he is god then that's your choice, but the bottom line is there is no evidence of divinity.
What is blind belief for one may not be so for another.
Reply

siam
07-28-2011, 03:51 AM
Is it possible that the definitions of "God" are different in Hinduism and Islam?

In Islam, God is Unique, the Uncreated, the One.....
In Hinduism---God may not be either Unique or Uncreated...or even One......?

In some shamanistic beliefs like Shintoism---God(Kami) is "everywhere", in every rock, and stream and tree....

Perhaps in Hinduism, any elephant or cow or man or statue can be an "incarnate"/avatar---a "created" God? :D
Reply

siam
07-28-2011, 03:56 AM
So.... what would be the criteria for such a created man-god?.....that he did (a)good-works and he did (b)"miracles"?...is that it?
Reply

K.Venugopal
07-28-2011, 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by siam
Is it possible that the definitions of "God" are different in Hinduism and Islam?
Yes. In Islam God is defined as the creator and He is considered eternally separate from His creation. Hinduism defines God as existence and declares all existence as one; call it God, energy, life, consciousness, oneness or whatever. Islam is about obedience to the creator and reward for obeying Him and punishment for failure to obey Him. Hinduism is about discovering the oneness of existence and being freed from the cause of all man’s problems – his sense of lack.

Originally Posted by siam
In Islam, God is Unique, the Uncreated, the One.....In Hinduism---God may not be either Unique or Uncreated...or even One......?
Since Islam has posited a God separate from His creation, it says God is unique, uncreated, the One etc. Hinduism, which does not consider existence as irreconcilably separate units, celebrates the oneness of existence with all manner of names and forms.
Originally Posted by siam
In some shamanistic beliefs like Shintoism---God(Kami) is "everywhere", in every rock, and stream and tree....
Hinduism believes God is everywhere and celebrates His expression in various forms.

Originally Posted by siam
Perhaps in Hinduism, any elephant or cow or man or statue can be an "incarnate"/avatar---a "created" God? :D
Yes, but “created God” is a misnomer.
Reply

K.Venugopal
07-28-2011, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by siam
So.... what would be the criteria for such a created man-god?.....that he did (a)good-works and he did (b)"miracles"?...is that it?
There is no such thing as "created man-god". Good works and miracles may help man to recognize divinity in other men. But the ultimate recognition is the divinity in all existence. God takes human form to teach mankind this truth. Many consider Sai Baba as one such avatar (unlimited God taking a limited form).
Reply

siam
07-29-2011, 08:58 AM
@ K.V.
so then, ...if all creation is "God" and "God" is all creation..then "God" cannot be the creator of creation---as that would require an existence of an Uncreated creator before creation occurs.^o) got it?;D

it would also mean that such a created "God" would come into existence at some point and also cease to exist at some point---and is therefore not eternal?

it also means that you may worship yourself as "God" as you---being part of creation---are therefore "God".....?;D

and therefore, any human being---good or bad is worthy of worship due to them being "God"?

and one more question....if God is creation and creation is God and God comes into existence and ceases to exit....what is the point?----You mentioned lack....lack of what?
Reply

siam
07-29-2011, 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
There is no such thing as "created man-god". Good works and miracles may help man to recognize divinity in other men. But the ultimate recognition is the divinity in all existence. God takes human form to teach mankind this truth. Many consider Sai Baba as one such avatar (unlimited God taking a limited form).
Interesting statement K.V., I thought only Christians were capable of illogic! Perhaps you want to rephrase?
I thought you just explained that "God"/divinity= existence? are you saying that God/divinity/existence begins to exist so that it can teach itself "this truth"---that it exists.....? ---that it is incapable of understanding its own existence unless taught by itself?......there is something wrong here....?........
Reply

K.Venugopal
07-29-2011, 07:09 PM
Your questions are good. May I attempt to answer them.
Originally Posted by siam
so then, ...if all creation is "God" and "God" is all creation..
Yes. God is all “creation” and “creation” is all God.
Originally Posted by siam
then "God" cannot be the creator of creation---as that would require an existence of an Uncreated creator before creation occurs.^o) got it?;D
No, God is not the creator of “creation”. Existence is eternal and cannot be divided into Creator and created. Such a division is an illusion that comes about due to our ignorance.

Originally Posted by siam
it would also mean that such a created "God" would come into existence at some point and also cease to exist at some point---and is therefore not eternal?
Existence always exists and is not created at any point of time. Existence includes God and His so called-creation. The separation is an illusion based on man’s ignorance and in the period of ignorance man suffers. Religion teaches man to wake up from the illusion and suffering.

Originally Posted by siam
it also means that you may worship yourself as "God" as you---being part of creation---are therefore "God".....?;D
We may worship anything. Only when we realise that we are God would worship end.

Originally Posted by siam
and therefore, any human being---good or bad is worthy of worship due to them being "God"?
All existence is worthy of worship and that is why Hindus join their palms together as an indication of worship when they pray before idols or meet another person.

Originally Posted by siam
and one more question....if God is creation and creation is God and God comes into existence and ceases to exit....what is the point?----You mentioned lack....lack of what?
God, the formless, has always been and never ceases to exist. Only his forms change and only forms cease to exist.

The lack that I mentioned is the sense of lack – the sense that something is missing. This sense of lack would end only when our minds become wholesome.
Reply

K.Venugopal
07-29-2011, 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by siam
Interesting statement K.V., I thought only Christians were capable of illogic! Perhaps you want to rephrase?
I thought you just explained that "God"/divinity= existence? are you saying that God/divinity/existence begins to exist so that it can teach itself "this truth"---that it exists.....? ---that it is incapable of understanding its own existence unless taught by itself?......there is something wrong here....?........
Hindu scriptures mention a reason why God the formless takes on forms. Sanskrit has a word "Leela" which is game. The reason is a game that God plays with himself - a sort of solitaire! We may call the game hide-and-seek.
Reply

M.I.A.
07-29-2011, 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Your questions are good. May I attempt to answer them.
Yes. God is all “creation” and “creation” is all God.
No, God is not the creator of “creation”. Existence is eternal and cannot be divided into Creator and created. Such a division is an illusion that comes about due to our ignorance.

Existence always exists and is not created at any point of time. Existence includes God and His so called-creation. The separation is an illusion based on man’s ignorance and in the period of ignorance man suffers. Religion teaches man to wake up from the illusion and suffering.

We may worship anything. Only when we realise that we are God would worship end.

All existence is worthy of worship and that is why Hindus join their palms together as an indication of worship when they pray before idols or meet another person.

God, the formless, has always been and never ceases to exist. Only his forms change and only forms cease to exist.

The lack that I mentioned is the sense of lack – the sense that something is missing. This sense of lack would end only when our minds become wholesome.
i take dispute with this, not harshly but let me try and explain.

existence/creation is not worthy of worship, the treatment of existence/creation..your deeds are what count.

there is a subtle difference.
worship should only be reserved for the creator, the treatment of existence/creation should be guided by whatever standard you would use to best represent your creator.

im not sure about idols at all. if you remove the idol from a temple, what do you have?
god would still be present.

i would say we are all servants of god,
we can and should work for the betterment of each other but ultimately we do not always do that.
creation and creator are separated by the many layers of the creation..our human nature. even if you were to remove every part of self you would still see that you were at the mercy of god.

in this way i understand that creator and creation are separated until such time as we return to our creator.

even after removing the "illusion" of this world we can only claim to be servants of a creator.
im sure you have learned from many different people and have taught many different people, in this way the creator is always external.

also im sure you understand that not everything said is correct, no matter how long we live and learn, we are are still open to mistakes.

in that separation is room for growth in our human nature.. become more constant.. but the separation still exists.


"We may worship anything. Only when we realise that we are God would worship end."

not really,
you cant start mistreating the people simply because you think you are "at one with god"
Reply

Muezzin
07-29-2011, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by yas2010
From what i have read of this indivdual and his PR team. It was a great big money making con! Sai baba was revered by influential politicans and high profile celebs within india.

If you read about sects and there leaders and followers you will see many of the deviant characteristics. Sai Baba was also investigated for 'disgusting' acts toward children and his so called 'followers' revered him as a 'God'.
On the other hand he had an amazing hairstyle.

Reply

M.I.A.
07-29-2011, 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
On the other hand he had an amazing hairstyle.

i kinda lol'd

yeah but looking at that picture you would probably still high five him if you didnt know what he had done.

...there are probably a few iatola pictures that are would probably get a high five also.
Reply

K.Venugopal
07-29-2011, 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i take dispute with this, not harshly but let me try and explain.
I appreciate it. It is a very decent way of discourse.
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
existence/creation is not worthy of worship, the treatment of existence/creation..your deeds are what count.
Worship is not about being supplicant. Worship is celebration of oneness. Our deeds count – they can lead us to ignorance or to enlightenment.

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
there is a subtle difference. worship should only be reserved for the creator, the treatment of existence/creation should be guided by whatever standard you would use to best represent your creator.
Worship if understood as being supplicant, would naturally be reserved for the creator. But when the approach is one of oneness, then there is no worship per se, there is only celebration.

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
im not sure about idols at all. if you remove the idol from a temple, what do you have?
The idol is a form representing the formless. There are temples without idols. Eventually, when we discover the oneness, even temples are not required.

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
god would still be present.
Yes, just as air in a container would still be present even if the container is broken.

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i would say we are all servants of god,
There is no harm in saying that, so long as that does not restrict being one with God.

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
we can and should work for the betterment of each other but ultimately we do not always do that.
I, sadly, agree with you.

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
creation and creator are separated by the many layers of the creation..our human nature. even if you were to remove every part of self you would still see that you were at the mercy of god.
God, who is love unbridled, would never have anyone at His mercy. The separation between “creation” and “creator” is only an illusion.

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
in this way i understand that creator and creation are separated until such time as we return to our creator.
Are you saying that one day “we shall return to our creator”? This is exactly what I have been saying all along.

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
even after removing the "illusion" of this world we can only claim to be servants of a creator.
Why insist on living in illusion when the truth is discovered?

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
im sure you have learned from many different people and have taught many different people, in this way the creator is always external.
The concept of external creator is an illusion.

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
also im sure you understand that not everything said is correct, no matter how long we live and learn, we are are still open to mistakes.
Of course. We live and we learn.

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
in that separation is room for growth in our human nature.. become more constant.. but the separation still exists.
From separation to oneness – we move from ignorance to truth, from suffering to bliss.

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
"We may worship anything. Only when we realise that we are God would worship end."not really,
Why not?

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
you cant start mistreating the people simply because you think you are "at one with god"
The question of mistreating people does not arise in oneness. It arises only with our sense of separation.
Reply

siam
07-31-2011, 07:11 AM
@ K.V.---fascinating....thankyou for the answers.......

So the thread should have been titled "living God changes form"....?

According to your explanation---no one can "die"---they just keep changing form eternally?

Just to get things straight---eternal existence=(eternal)God=(eternal)creation/form....?

but.....if existence IS God, IS creation/form...then what need is there for incarnation?---because then every single form---from an ant to an elephant are God/existence....in other words "avatars" anyway.......?.......

Which means.....if this Baba guy had known this "truth".....then his whole charade was not one of bringing people to the "truth" that they are "God/existence"---it was to decieve them away from it by having people fixated on worshipping him as "God/existence".....that is, instead of understanding they are one with existence....they have created an artificial seperation from understanding "existence' by fixating on "form"---particularly the single "form" of this Baba person.

If the purpose of existence is leela/eternal hide-and-seek then intelligence, understanding, reason...does not matter as no matter what we understand, or think, or even do---we are going to eternally change "form" anyway..................
Reply

K.Venugopal
08-01-2011, 10:55 AM
Originally Posted by siam
So the thread should have been titled "living God changes form"....?
Or better sill, “Living God reverts to formlessness”. God, who is understood by Hindus as totality, limits Himself into forms and names (to the question why, a fascinating answer suggested by Hindu scriptures, as I said before, is because God wishes to play the divine game of “hide-and-seek”). While God limits himself, He always exists as the unlimited. That is, even as the limited exists, the unlimited also exists simultaneously. This is like the unlimited air existing even as the limited air in the container exists. Because the container is ephemeral, it is said to be illusionary in nature. The word illusion (maya) used by me in our discussion is used to indicate that which is ephemeral in the measure against the eternal – not that the ephemeral does not ever exist. When Hindus talk about avatar or incarnation of God in human form, the difference is that while formless God takes on forms to “create” the world, He remains “ignorant” of himself in those forms and eventually He discovers Himself. In the case of an avatar, God is always aware of His form. This, I suppose, is the difference between Sai Baba and us. Sai Baba, if it is true that he was an avatar, would have been conscious of himself as God all the time He was in his limited body. You and I, on the other hand, are ignorant or not fully convinced or are unable to display God’s powers while we are in this human form. By and by, through many lifetimes, we could come to realise our divinity and we would achieve absolute freedom (moksha in Sanskrit).

Originally Posted by siam
According to your explanation---no one can "die"---they just keep changing form eternally?
Yes, nothing in existence dies. Death is only a word used for change. Just like sound and silence. If sound “dies” and silence is not sound, then sound can never come about. In silence is contained sound though no longer capable of being audible to our human ears.

Originally Posted by siam
Just to get things straight---eternal existence=(eternal)God=(eternal)creation/form....?
Yes. Let us say when God is through with the game there are no more forms. But there is always another day and God plays again and forms come into being again.

Originally Posted by siam
but.....if existence IS God, IS creation/form...then what need is there for incarnation?---because then every single form---from an ant to an elephant are God/existence....in other words "avatars" anyway.......?.......
Very good question indeed. When we dream and the dream went the way we did not like, we often quite hilariously wish that we had intervened in the dream and got things our way. But alas, we do not have the capacity to intervene in our dream. This creation can be seen as God’s dream but when God dreams He has the capacity to intervene in his dreams unlike us!

Originally Posted by siam
Which means.....if this Baba guy had known this "truth".....then his whole charade was not one of bringing people to the "truth" that they are "God/existence"---it was to decieve them away from it by having people fixated on worshipping him as "God/existence".....that is, instead of understanding they are one with existence....they have created an artificial seperation from understanding "existence' by fixating on "form"---particularly the single "form" of this Baba person.
Sai Baba, if he was actually an avatar, would have at all times been aware that he was God, unlike us. Sai Baba has reiterated in his teachings that we are one with God and he has also thought that people could worship his form as that of God. Such an approach is the traditional Hindu way of teaching religious truths. Both the higher teachings and the steps to reaching the higher teachings are available in Hinduism.

Originally Posted by siam
If the purpose of existence is leela/eternal hide-and-seek then intelligence, understanding, reason...does not matter as no matter what we understand, or think, or even do---we are going to eternally change "form" anyway..................
Forms are made to be changed, just like the dress we are wearing. Common sense is enough to understand this. Intelligence, understanding, reason has to be used to uncover what we are within our dress.
Reply

Riana17
08-01-2011, 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Or better sill, “Living God reverts to formlessness”. God, who is understood by Hindus as totality, limits Himself into forms and names (to the question why, a fascinating answer suggested by Hindu scriptures, as I said before, is because God wishes to play the divine game of “hide-and-seek”). While God limits himself, He always exists as the unlimited. That is, even as the limited exists, the unlimited also exists simultaneously. This is like the unlimited air existing even as the limited air in the container exists. Because the container is ephemeral, it is said to be illusionary in nature. The word illusion (maya) used by me in our discussion is used to indicate that which is ephemeral in the measure against the eternal – not that the ephemeral does not ever exist. When Hindus talk about avatar or incarnation of God in human form, the difference is that while formless God takes on forms to “create” the world, He remains “ignorant” of himself in those forms and eventually He discovers Himself. In the case of an avatar, God is always aware of His form. This, I suppose, is the difference between Sai Baba and us. Sai Baba, if it is true that he was an avatar, would have been conscious of himself as God all the time He was in his limited body. You and I, on the other hand, are ignorant or not fully convinced or are unable to display God’s powers while we are in this human form. By and by, through many lifetimes, we could come to realise our divinity and we would achieve absolute freedom (moksha in Sanskrit).

Yes, nothing in existence dies. Death is only a word used for change. Just like sound and silence. If sound “dies” and silence is not sound, then sound can never come about. In silence is contained sound though no longer capable of being audible to our human ears.

Yes. Let us say when God is through with the game there are no more forms. But there is always another day and God plays again and forms come into being again.

Very good question indeed. When we dream and the dream went the way we did not like, we often quite hilariously wish that we had intervened in the dream and got things our way. But alas, we do not have the capacity to intervene in our dream. This creation can be seen as God’s dream but when God dreams He has the capacity to intervene in his dreams unlike us!

Sai Baba, if he was actually an avatar, would have at all times been aware that he was God, unlike us. Sai Baba has reiterated in his teachings that we are one with God and he has also thought that people could worship his form as that of God. Such an approach is the traditional Hindu way of teaching religious truths. Both the higher teachings and the steps to reaching the higher teachings are available in Hinduism.

Forms are made to be changed, just like the dress we are wearing. Common sense is enough to understand this. Intelligence, understanding, reason has to be used to uncover what we are within our dress.
Salam Alaikkum Mr Venugopal

There should be some logic and proper explanation in everything, when we are alive we should take advantage of finding out the truth, the truth with supportive facts & evidence.
When we leave this earth or DIE, we can't do anything anymore, sorry is always in the end.

Just think about what is the craziest idea a person can have, yes that is to think that there are TWO GOD

Okay, lets give some samples, do you think it is possible to have 2President in a country?
Do you think there can be two mother to a son?
Do you think there can be two father to a boy?
If you think so, think please think 1000 times again because if you are a father and someone claims he is also father of your son, then i think that will not be a crazy idea, it will be a total disaster, and if that is possible, both of you guys will end up in mental hospital and will never ever recover INSHALLAH.

Just a week ago, I offer to share the noodles to our new teaboy. He said "Hmm, is that a beef?" I said, no its a chicken then he replied me "Good because beef is our GOD, I am HINDU"
I was so shocked, I said okay dear if COW is your GOD, why not a chicken? He said because beef is our mother, she gives milk. Oh tearfully interesting, , i was speechless and in the end i feel so so sad for him (& now I wonder a male beef is not GOD because he aint produce milk), why with all this advance technology, people can't think and open their mind?

Hence insha Allah, the ONE AND ONLY CREATOR (ALLAH) will have mercy on you and guide you to the right path. Amen
If you are a man of Science, perhaps, you can consider watching the youtube videos about Science in QURAN (THERE ARE 7videos)


Miracle of Qur'an(1 of 7)‏ - YouTube

www.youtube.com/watch?v=temQ6bd3Cuk
Reply

K.Venugopal
08-01-2011, 12:33 PM
Originally Posted by Riana17
Salam Alaikkum Mr Venugopal

There should be some logic and proper explanation in everything, when we are alive we should take advantage of finding out the truth, the truth with supportive facts & evidence.
When we leave this earth or DIE, we can't do anything anymore, sorry is always in the end.

Just think about what is the craziest idea a person can have, yes that is to think that there are TWO GOD

Okay, lets give some samples, do you think it is possible to have 2President in a country?
Do you think there can be two mother to a son?
Do you think there can be two father to a boy?
If you think so, think please think 1000 times again because if you are a father and someone claims he is also father of your son, then i think that will not be a crazy idea, it will be a total disaster, and if that is possible, both of you guys will end up in mental hospital and will never ever recover INSHALLAH.

Just a week ago, I offer to share the noodles to our new teaboy. He said "Hmm, is that a beef?" I said, no its a chicken then he replied me "Good because beef is our GOD, I am HINDU"
I was so shocked, I said okay dear if COW is your GOD, why not a chicken? He said because beef is our mother, she gives milk. Oh tearfully interesting, , i was speechless and in the end i feel so so sad for him (& now I wonder a male beef is not GOD because he aint produce milk), why with all this advance technology, people can't think and open their mind?

Hence insha Allah, the ONE AND ONLY CREATOR (ALLAH) will have mercy on you and guide you to the right path. Amen
If you are a man of Science, perhaps, you can consider watching the youtube videos about Science in QURAN (THERE ARE 7videos)


Miracle of Qur'an(1 of 7)‏ - YouTube

www.youtube.com/watch?v=temQ6bd3Cuk
Dear Riana, I have never said anywhere there are two Gods, because by God I mean totality and by definition there cannot be two totalities. However, I believe God can and does express Himself in innumerable forms and because the forms are nothing other than Him, it is also correct to call his forms or "creation" as Gods. This does not mean there are many Gods. God is one and His expressions are many. The One and the Many are the same. Difference does not mean separate. Our sense of separation is an illusion that occurs because we are unable to see the oneness.
Reply

Riana17
08-01-2011, 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Dear Riana, I have never said anywhere there are two Gods, because by God I mean totality and by definition there cannot be two totalities. However, I believe God can and does express Himself in innumerable forms and because the forms are nothing other than Him, it is also correct to call his forms or "creation" as Gods. This does not mean there are many Gods. God is one and His expressions are many. The One and the Many are the same. Difference does not mean separate. Our sense of separation is an illusion that occurs because we are unable to see the oneness.
Salam Alaikkum
When we say one, it means absolutely one (La Illaha Illalah). A person himself is different from his shadow or a person is not same as his soul. There can be only one person, one shadow and one soul.

Now pls tell us logically, why would the ONLY GOD would have to produce multiple forms of His? The God you are talking about is badly imaged, why the CREATOR would be in forms of animal, plants, or human or a thing, that is so silly and unrespectable. If you are believe like that, then you can be God anytime you wished and back as human as you wish as well.

Creation is not a joke and the CREATOR is not a joker either.

Mr. Venugopal, I would like for us to be realistic and I am just gently reminding you. I wont loose anything here, so pls once again, support the ideas you have.

Please bear with me, lets say I killed an ant, do we think I can return his life just because I think it would? I am a God, i think I can ... ??????

Of course, we cant Sir, there is no single chance for GOD is ALONE and HE has no other FORMS or partner. Just like you, you are a man of yourself, responsible for your own thinking and acts.

Please consider and let us have an open mind.
I would leavee you with another thing to think about inshallah, what do you think is God's message when He is in form of a plant or a COW? Is it recipe time?

And a bonus query of mine, so how about I walk a street and I saw a cow? how do I know the heck is god or an animal? do i have to stop think and identify the signs? what are the signs? okay let's say because there is milk dropping in her (I would really be kicked far doing this), okay how do i pay respect to God? shall I stop and offer my prayer? okay lets say i am done with that, how about if I cross with another hundreds of cows, a flock of goats & sheeps, whom shall I worship first? will I be a sinner when I worship the other before the rest, or will i survive the day without feeling guilty? is it peaceful life Mr Venugopal knowing that everywhere of you are gods? are you even allowed to drink the milk of your gods?

I am indeed sorry, I dont like to offend you, but I wish, i do wish this idea would touch your intelligent mind, you seems fairly educated Sir. Everyone can agree with me here, you are an excellent communicator and better than many of us.
Reply

K.Venugopal
08-01-2011, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by Riana17
Salam Alaikkum
Alaikkum Salam, Riana

Originally Posted by Riana17
When we say one, it means absolutely one (La Illaha Illalah). A person himself is different from his shadow or a person is not same as his soul. There can be only one person, one shadow and one soul.
The shadow is dependent on the body to exist. The body does not depend on the shadow to exist. The body is dependent on the soul to exist. The soul does not depend on the body to exist. The soul is dependent on God to exist. God is not dependent on the soul to exist. In fact, God is not dependent on anything to exist or do anything. God is self-existent. I think both of us agree upto this point.

So if God created something, that creation would not have come through anything other than Himself. If you agree with me on this, then you have to agree that God and His “creation” are both one. They may be different, like man and his shadow, but they are not separate.

Originally Posted by Riana17
Now pls tell us logically, why would the ONLY GOD would have to produce multiple forms of His? The God you are talking about is badly imaged, why the CREATOR would be in forms of animal, plants, or human or a thing, that is so silly and unrespectable.
Because He wanted to do that and why not?

Originally Posted by Riana17
If you are believe like that, then you can be God anytime you wished and back as human as you wish as well.
Yes, when I move from my limited self to my unlimited self.

Originally Posted by Riana17
Creation is not a joke and the CREATOR is not a joker either.
I did not say so either.

Originally Posted by Riana17
Mr. Venugopal, I would like for us to be realistic and I am just gently reminding you. I wont loose anything here, so pls once again, support the ideas you have.
I base my contentions on logic. If you shatter the logic, then my contentions would fail.

Originally Posted by Riana17
Please bear with me, lets say I killed an ant, do we think I can return his life just because I think it would? I am a God, i think I can ... ??????
When I move from my limited self to my unlimited self, then I would be able to once again be the ant that was killed.

Originally Posted by Riana17
Of course, we cant Sir, there is no single chance for GOD is ALONE
Maybe that is why He “created” us – to have company.

Originally Posted by Riana17
and HE has no other FORMS or partner.
He can be without form or with forms and have partners if He wishes. Why do we want to limit the capacity of God?
Originally Posted by Riana17
Just like you, you are a man of yourself, responsible for your own thinking and acts.
Ah, you have just said God is like me. Is this allowed in Islam?

Originally Posted by Riana17
Please consider and let us have an open mind.
The whole idea of Hinduism is to cultivate open-mindedness.
Originally Posted by Riana17
I would live you with another thing to think about inshallah, what do you think is God's message when He is in form of a plant or a COW? Is it recipe time?
God has only one message – discover Him by discovering yourself. I am not sure if plants and cows would be able to do it, but I am sure with God’s help, they too would be able to do it. I would be underestimating God if I thought otherwise.

Originally Posted by Riana17
I am indeed sorry, I dont like to offend you, but I wish, i do wish this idea would touch your intelligent mind, you seems fairly educated Sir. Everyone can agree with me here, you are an excellent communicator and better than many of us.
Thank you for your praise. I really don’t deserve it. I am quite an ordinary chap just trying to put across ideas that I think are important.
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