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anonymous
05-19-2011, 09:15 PM
Assalaamu Alaykum,

Basically I'm a medical student and this evening a thought struck me, which is worrying me:

When I initially was applying to medical school, my college teacher had predicted me higher grades than she was perhaps expecting from me, so it would meet the requirements/look good on my application form. I was initially rejected without an interview, but after some phone calls to the medical school, they allowed me to have an interview because I was participating in a scheme they ran aiming to get students into Health related degrees, including Medicine. After the interview I got an offer and meeting the grade requirements was all through my own effort. I just feel as though I had somehow cheated in letting my teacher predict higher grades for me than she was expecting of me, and now I'm in my second year at Medical school, why am I getting this thought now!? I don't want to drop out from this course now, I feel so blessed by Allah that I am here. Yet since this thought has struck me and the fear that I may have slightly cheated my way into medical school( by getting my teacher to predict higher grades) I feel as if there will be no barakah in my career. Being a Doctor Insha Allah is a fantastic career, you're contributing positively to society and to the Muslim Ummah, but will I be punished for what had happened about my teacher's grade predictions?

I sometimes feel I will Insha Allah make a better doctor than another candidate who would have been here instead of me, though obviously you can't guess that. Also for the most part I feel as though everything I've done to get this far is entirely out of my own effort, and who knows maybe the medical school would have still interviewed me even if my grade predictions were slightly lower, on the basis that I was participating in a scheme they ran for about 3 years? BTW, the scheme they( the university) ran was attempting to increase the interest of students in healthcare degrees and to increase the number of applicants applying for healthcare degrees, including medicine.

Also I thought to myself, that almost every medicine applicant tells a few lies or a lie in their application somewhere, e.g on their personal statement or wherever( e.g they exaggerate things, they make things up to make the personal statement look good etc). Say if a Muslim had done this, does this mean they will have no barakah in their career as a doctor?

I'm imagining 90% + of interviewees must have told a few white lies ( or even some bigger lies) during their interview. I know I must have said a few, does this mean I will have no barakah in my career as a doctor Insha Allah? It's not like I'm selling something haraam or providing haraam services e.g. selling alcohol and so on? Loads of people must lie to some extent in any job interview or other interviews they have, whilst I know this is a sin and I accept that, does this make the roles/jobs/places haraam for us to take up( and therefore we won't receive any barakah from this)?

Jazak Allah, Sorry to bombard you with a logn post, but please take the time out to help thanks soo much

I have my exams in 2 and a half weeks and these thoughts are concerning me!

Quick reply would be most appreciated, Jazak Allah so much for your help

P.S- Maybe I'm just not thinking through this the correct way round and my mind has distorted itself regarding this matter? What is your view?
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anonymous
05-21-2011, 01:55 PM
Bump...... does anybody have any info??? Please don't tell me I have to quit my medicine course after almost completing two years of it!!

Jazak Allah
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anonymous
05-21-2011, 02:01 PM
What would make it necessary for me to quit, I wouldn't even dream of quitting medicine!! Helppppppp...... I'm going through a real tough patch at the moment:(
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gladTidings
05-21-2011, 02:17 PM
Your place at the University is based on the conditional requirement that you achieve the predicted grades. Your predicted grades only help you to be considered for an interview, and your interview is what would determine whether you are offered a conditonal place. Also, surely your teacher would not predict grades that he/she never thought you were capable of achieving ? Maybe you are having such thoughts because you are nearing your exams and a tad bit worried about them?
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anonymous
05-21-2011, 03:29 PM
JazakAllah but only recently I've been feeling as though I cheated my way into Med school because I over-exagerrated in my personal statement( on my application form) and got my teacher to predict me higher grades, and told a few lies/over-exaggerations at the interview. And possibly passed some other loopholes, but I know this is a sin, may Allah forgive me Insha Allah. But surely I can carry on as normal with my studies? Why am I getting this thought now of all times!!???

Thanks
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Reflections
05-21-2011, 03:36 PM
AsSalaamu '3alaykum,

I don't think it's much of an issue to be worrying about, we all have predicted grade while studying, and as for personal statement..you have to really describe yourself in a way you're not lol..but that's because you're trying to convince them to offer you a place. I agree with the sis, I think it's just exam nerves getting to you..Carry on with your studies insha-Allah
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anonymous
05-22-2011, 02:56 PM
Thank you for your replies, but here is a question:

If someone had said so many lies and over-exagerations to get into medical school and had taken advantage of some loopholes to get a place, would that make the degree and subsequent career impermissible for one to take up? This is at the extreme end of the spectrum

JazakAllah
Reply

جوري
05-23-2011, 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by anonymous
Thank you for your replies, but here is a question:

If someone had said so many lies and over-exagerations to get into medical school and had taken advantage of some loopholes to get a place, would that make the degree and subsequent career impermissible for one to take up? This is at the extreme end of the spectrum

JazakAllah
People who are mediocre or worse those who cheat don't get their medical degrees or get to practice as doctors, for the simple reason that, even if getting in is easy, getting out isn't..
There are school exams, hospital exams and state and license requirements that are certain to trap the cheats-- one can't cheat on everything least of which when pictures and thump prints are needed to sit for such tests, so if I were you I'd really not worry about what has happened and focus on your studies as ultimately you'll be responsible for patients before God!

:w:
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Muhammad
05-23-2011, 11:34 PM
Wa Alaykum Assalaam,

Not really an answer to your question, but just thought I would mention something regarding this statement,

Also for the most part I feel as though everything I've done to get this far is entirely out of my own effort,
It would be better to say that everything is a result of Allaah's help and His favours upon us. Allaah (swt) teaches us in the Qur'an,
And whatever of blessings and good things you have, it is from Allah... [An-Nahl: 53]
With regards to your question, beware of shaytaan placing doubts in your mind regarding Allaah (swt)...

May Allaah (swt) give you success and place much blessing in your career and future, Aameen.
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Flame of Hope
05-23-2011, 11:44 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by anonymous
I'm imagining 90% + of interviewees must have told a few white lies ( or even some bigger lies) during their interview. I know I must have said a few, does this mean I will have no barakah in my career as a doctor Insha Allah? It's not like I'm selling something haraam or providing haraam services e.g. selling alcohol and so on? Loads of people must lie to some extent in any job interview or other interviews they have, whilst I know this is a sin and I accept that, does this make the roles/jobs/places haraam for us to take up( and therefore we won't receive any barakah from this)?
I can feel your anguish. It's tearing you apart isn't it?

I think it's sign of healthy iman, sis. I'm glad that you feel this way, glad that you should be concerned that your career as a doctor won't be blessed. It's a good thing for you to feel remorse.

But at this time, there isn't much you can do about what's happened. It's over. It's the past. You made a mistake and you have learned (learnt)....lol........something from it.

There's no point in crying over spilt milk. So recognize that, say alhamdulillah and let it go.

A person who repents is like he who never committed the sin.

So as long as your repentance is sincere, you can hope that Allah will forgive you for your lapse or any cheating you might have done.

Focus on repenting sincerely.......and believe me, you would make a fine doctor.....with a big heart, at the service of Allah. The power of repentance would completely transform you and make you far better at your work as a doctor than if you had not cheated.... :)
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anonymous
05-27-2011, 10:25 PM
JazakAllah for your replies, but can anyone explain this answer to me:

Question:
I spoke to someone who had cheated in their degree. They want to know
whether they can now gain employment using the degree and if they do, does
it make their income haram. How should one repent over this? If the
university is notified of this it could mean that this person will never be
able to study again.

Answer:
In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

Dishonesty and deception are clearly unlawful and considered to be amongst
the major sins; hence a Muslim should always remain distant from them. As
such, cheating in one's exams or obtaining a forged certificate for a degree
is, without doubt, unlawful (haram) and a major sin, and from which one must
always refrain.

As far as seeking employment by cheating in exams or by obtaining a forged
certificate is concerned, there are two situations here:

1) If one possesses the necessary and required credentials for a job, and
one carries out his/her job with full dedication and commitment, the income
gained on such employment would be considered lawful (halal).

The reason being is that the objective behind possessing a degree and a
certificate is that one possesses the necessary requirements to take up that
job. If one possesses these necessary requirements even without having
something to prove it, then the income cannot be termed as unlawful.

2) If one does not possess the necessary credentials and requirements to
take up a particular job, or one does not carry out the job will full
dedication and commitment, then the income would be considered unlawful
(haram).

Some contemporary scholars state that if one seeks a permissible employment
based on fake certificates, then although the income on such employment
would be Halal (provided one has the necessary credentials of doing the job,
as mentioned earlier), but one will still receive the sin of presenting
forged certificates.

Therefore, in conclusion, if you have already taken up employment based on
forged certificates, you may continue to do so and the income would be
considered Halal, provided you have the necessary requirements to take up
that job.

However, if you have, as yet, not taken up employment, you should avoid
doing so with such certificates, for presenting them would constitute lying
and deception. However, if you do (and you possess the necessary credentials
of doing that job), your income would be Halal.

And Allah knows best

Link is this: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...D=4307&CATE=43


What do they mean by the 'necessary credentials'? Does it mean if I graduate as a Dr InshaAllah, that means I will have the neccessary credentials for the Job of a doctor? Or are they referring to some other sort of 'credentials', though I can't really think of any other form of credentials except for passing the degree itself.

Is the summarised message of the answer this:

No matter how you got to your degree, e.g. if you lied during the Interview, in the Personal statement, got your teacher to predict higher grades for you etc, as long as you PASS your degree and gain your certificate and GRADUATE as a doctor AND practise as a Dr with full dedication and commitment( i.e not neglecting your duties as a doctor and meeting whatever requirements there are for you as a Dr), then your income will be HALAL? The Dr is just an example of a career, but I suppose you could replace it with any career. Also, I know that it is obviously a sin to lie( in interviews, Personal statements, predicting grades etc) and we should repent to Allah SWT, but does this lying( to GET A PLACE on a Medicine course) mean my career is void and my income will be Haram?

Please can someone reassure me that everything will be OK and that I can remain motivated to study, because right now I feel as though I'm going to have to drop out of my course after almost completing my second year :(( I don't feel highly motivated to study when the validity of my future career and income seems uncertain. But according to that answer, it seems OK?? I just hope I'm thinking of the right 'credentials' the Mufti is referring to, because I can't see any other credential except passing your finals themselves and working normally as any other Doctor would?

JazakAllah, A brother in need
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Flame of Hope
05-27-2011, 11:23 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by anonymous
If one possesses the necessary and required credentials for a job, and one carries out his/her job with full dedication and commitment, the income gained on such employment would be considered lawful (halal).
You are studying to become a doctor...... when you pass your exams, then you will have the necessary and required credentials for a job.

If you do not study, you will not pass your exams. Unless you are thinking of cheating on your exams.

I'm sure cheating is the furthest thing in your mind right now.

All actions are judge by intentions. Granted that you made some mistakes in the past which are now coming to haunt you, but you must surely know that repentance washes away those sins. So it is like you are starting anew.

You mustn't doubt that Allah will forgive you. He is The Forgiving and He loves to forgive.

That should give you peace of mind.

A believer does not despair in the mercy of Allah.

That's where I think you need to lay your focus on. Ask Allah to forgive you, then forgive yourself...... and move on!

Don't let Shaytan cast doubts in your heart, when it is pretty clear that as long as you have acquired your credentials through genuine hard work and dedication, you deserve to be rewarded with a blessed career and earnings that are halal.
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anonymous
05-28-2011, 08:21 AM
Originally Posted by Flame
:sl:



You are studying to become a doctor...... when you pass your exams, then you will have the necessary and required credentials for a job.

If you do not study, you will not pass your exams. Unless you are thinking of cheating on your exams.

I'm sure cheating is the furthest thing in your mind right now.

All actions are judge by intentions. Granted that you made some mistakes in the past which are now coming to haunt you, but you must surely know that repentance washes away those sins. So it is like you are starting anew.

You mustn't doubt that Allah will forgive you. He is The Forgiving and He loves to forgive.

That should give you peace of mind.

A believer does not despair in the mercy of Allah.

That's where I think you need to lay your focus on. Ask Allah to forgive you, then forgive yourself...... and move on!

Don't let Shaytan cast doubts in your heart, when it is pretty clear that as long as you have acquired your credentials through genuine hard work and dedication, you deserve to be rewarded with a blessed career and earnings that are halal.
Yes of course I would never even think of cheating in my exams, it would be impossible for anyone to do that. There is one more question I have:

Amongst a few of my friends we have been sent past questions from real exams, compiled by previous students who typed them up say after they came out of the exam. This is because our Medical school doesn't publish or give any past papers, so I suppose the best way of knowing the types of questions which come up is to write them down quickly after the exam has been sat. A lot of people have different versions of these past questions, because I suppose everyone knows different people in higher years, who typed them up themselves and then these get sent around to different groups within the year below etc. In fact, I'm sure that 60-80% of people have access to some sort of resources of these type. Yet on the actual exam day, there is no way to cheat. Therefore, this shouldn't affect my future career or it's lawfulness?

Because everyone still does have to pass the exact same exams. It's just that some people have some past questions to let them anticipate, but on the day there are no cheating tactics used( I don't know what sort of things people do e.g. write it on their hands, write things under their shoes, communicate quietly with people, dodgy invigilators etc). At least I know that I would never carry out these tactics, so is all OK for me?

JazakAllah for your help
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anonymous
05-28-2011, 08:23 AM
Originally Posted by anonymous
Yes of course I would never even think of cheating in my exams, it would be impossible for anyone to do that. There is one more question I have:

Amongst a few of my friends we have been sent past questions from real exams, compiled by previous students who typed them up say after they came out of the exam. This is because our Medical school doesn't publish or give any past papers, so I suppose the best way of knowing the types of questions which come up is to write them down quickly after the exam has been sat. A lot of people have different versions of these past questions, because I suppose everyone knows different people in higher years, who typed them up themselves and then these get sent around to different groups within the year below etc. In fact, I'm sure that 60-80% of people have access to some sort of resources of these type. Yet on the actual exam day, there is no way to cheat. Therefore, this shouldn't affect my future career or it's lawfulness?

Because everyone still does have to pass the exact same exams. It's just that some people have some past questions to let them anticipate, but on the day there are no cheating tactics used( I don't know what sort of things people do e.g. write it on their hands, write things under their shoes, communicate quietly with people, dodgy invigilators etc). At least I know that I would never carry out these tactics, so is all OK for me?

JazakAllah for your help
Just to add, the Medical school doesn't like people creating past paper banks and then distributing them, so some people have been in trouble when caught or accused, but it doesn't lead to them being withdrawn from the course by the Med school.
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Cabdullahi
05-28-2011, 06:00 PM
uni wanted A*....i got D- and quickly ran to the library not to study of-course but to change the D- to an A* using microsoft word and the scanners = cheated

uni wanted A*.....i got A* = fits like a glove

what is the fuss about

Masha'Allah
Reply

anonymous
05-31-2011, 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by Flame
:sl:



You are studying to become a doctor...... when you pass your exams, then you will have the necessary and required credentials for a job.

If you do not study, you will not pass your exams. Unless you are thinking of cheating on your exams.

I'm sure cheating is the furthest thing in your mind right now.

All actions are judge by intentions. Granted that you made some mistakes in the past which are now coming to haunt you, but you must surely know that repentance washes away those sins. So it is like you are starting anew.

You mustn't doubt that Allah will forgive you. He is The Forgiving and He loves to forgive.

That should give you peace of mind.

A believer does not despair in the mercy of Allah.

That's where I think you need to lay your focus on. Ask Allah to forgive you, then forgive yourself...... and move on!

Don't let Shaytan cast doubts in your heart, when it is pretty clear that as long as you have acquired your credentials through genuine hard work and dedication, you deserve to be rewarded with a blessed career and earnings that are halal.
Also, one more question:

When it says 'full dedication and commitment' what exactly do you think he is referring to? Like fulfilling the duties of your job as a Dr, providing care for all your patients who need it, in accordance to how it should be provided etc?

Because now I'm getting confused and feel that if I slack off a few things in my day-to-day work as a Dr Insha Allah, then this means I'm not performing my work with full dedication and commitment and therefore my income will become haraam? Obviously, I would never slack off anything which would compromise a patient etc, but you know... we all tend to be lazy here and there at work, does this mean we're not showing full dedication and commitment to our job( or work as a Dr in my case)?

Or am I overthinking things? I mean everyone us tends to slack off things here and there, but we would never go completely against the rules of our working arrangements. This doesn't mean we're not carrying out our job with full dedication and commitment?

Sorry, I'm still thinking about this, just to help you I currently do have a mild mental illness( which I'm currently having therapy for) , so that may allow you to see better why I am still thinking over this.
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Flame of Hope
05-31-2011, 06:24 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by anonymous
Because now I'm getting confused and feel that if I slack off a few things in my day-to-day work as a Dr Insha Allah, then this means I'm not performing my work with full dedication and commitment and therefore my income will become haraam?
Recognize one thing. You are human. It isn't possible to always be at your best. There will be times when you get tired... or get affected by a few things in your personal life. But as long as you are persistent and consistent in fulfilling your duty as a doctor, you have nothing to worry about.

I've gone through days when I didn't do my best while at work. But I didn't let that pull me down so much that I began to think I was not dedicated to my profession. Although there had been down days, I had also the up days when my enthusiasm and cheerfulness lifted up everyone's spirits.... and the job that I did was done with excellence.

So just acknowledge that... accept life with all its ups and downs. And do enjoy the ride. A true believer finds good in everything and he never despairs of the mercy of his Lord. :)

I hope this reassures you.
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anonymous
06-03-2011, 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by Flame
:sl:



Recognize one thing. You are human. It isn't possible to always be at your best. There will be times when you get tired... or get affected by a few things in your personal life. But as long as you are persistent and consistent in fulfilling your duty as a doctor, you have nothing to worry about.

I've gone through days when I didn't do my best while at work. But I didn't let that pull me down so much that I began to think I was not dedicated to my profession. Although there had been down days, I had also the up days when my enthusiasm and cheerfulness lifted up everyone's spirits.... and the job that I did was done with excellence.

So just acknowledge that... accept life with all its ups and downs. And do enjoy the ride. A true believer finds good in everything and he never despairs of the mercy of his Lord. :)

I hope this reassures you.
JazakAllah for your help, yes I understand what you're saying I suppose nobody can be perfect all the time. I just don't think of things like this rationally, with me at the moment it is just irrational thinking argh! And I have one more question, if you look back a few posts, I made one about people having past questions which they wrote up themselves etc. I mean so many people do this, I think it would be very hard to know what's important to learn if you have no idea of the level of difficulty of questions they ask you. Especially in medicine, there is just a huge volume of information, as you probably are aware. I think it would be so so difficult to be able to cover everything, you have to prioritise and learn selectively to some extent. And I can say that many muslim students have access to these past questions and use them, so do I. Many other students also have access to them aswell. Now does this affect our future career, does it make anything haraam for us, our income etc? I don't think so, I hope not lol

JazakAllah in advance
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Flame of Hope
06-03-2011, 04:50 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by anonymous
And I have one more question, if you look back a few posts, I made one about people having past questions which they wrote up themselves etc. I mean so many people do this, I think it would be very hard to know what's important to learn if you have no idea of the level of difficulty of questions they ask you. Especially in medicine, there is just a huge volume of information, as you probably are aware. I think it would be so so difficult to be able to cover everything, you have to prioritise and learn selectively to some extent. And I can say that many muslim students have access to these past questions and use them, so do I. Many other students also have access to them aswell. Now does this affect our future career, does it make anything haraam for us, our income etc? I don't think so, I hope not lol
I don't see anything wrong with a bit of extra information (past questions). One can do with all the help that one can get. lol.

This is a competitive field. So anything to ease the load is good. :)

Just look at it as information.... It doesn't hurt to have more information. ;D
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anonymous
06-03-2011, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by Flame
:sl:



I don't see anything wrong with a bit of extra information (past questions). One can do with all the help that one can get. lol.

This is a competitive field. So anything to ease the load is good. :)

Just look at it as information.... It doesn't hurt to have more information. ;D
Lol, well I've sort of had a realisation which should help to ease my worries. Basically, I now think that one lie is as bad as many lies, everyone lies to some extent to get job offers, university places etc. I know it is a sin( and it is a bigger sin to lie more than others of course) if I may have lied or got in through some loopholes or whatever, but I think the amount you lie doesn't decide whether your career becomes haraam/unlawful? Moreover, it is the type of action which has been taken e.g. forging degree certificates, not performing your job with dedication, not having the neccessary credentials etc, which determine whether your income has become unlawful or your job haraam.

To summarise, one lie or many lies, your job shouldn't become haraam, it's just that you've committed a bigger sin than someone who told a smaller no. of lies. And Insha Allah we can always repent and try not to commit such sins again. Your job would only become haraam if your not meeting the aforementioned criteria( not performing with dedication, necessary credentials etc). You see where I am coming from?

Bearing in mind the Q and A which I previously posted, so long as I perform my job with dedication and have the necessary credentials, then Insha Allah all will be OK.

JazakAllah for your help
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anonymous
06-03-2011, 05:20 PM
To elaborate, I highly doubt there is a 'cut-off' point for the number of lies you are allowed to tell before your job becomes haraam lol.

???
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Flame of Hope
06-03-2011, 06:53 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by anonymous
To elaborate, I highly doubt there is a 'cut-off' point for the number of lies you are allowed to tell before your job becomes haraam lol.

???
Ahem! Just to put your mind at MORE ease.... lol....

No matter how well you do in life, there will always be times when you goof up... make mistakes.... and yes, tell lies. It happens.... and is going to happen.... you might have told lies in the past.... and you repent of that.... but that doesn't mean that you will never tell lies all your life...

YOU ARE HUMAN. To err is human. So if you can remember that you are a human being and not some sort of NEVER DO WRONG machine..... and also remember that Allah LOVES to forgive..... and that the Door of Repentance is ALWAYS wide open (meaning Allah's mercy is always there for you....) ..... then, life will be a lot more easier to deal with.

Relax brother. You are a human being.... and a Muslim... learn to take life with a pinch of salt.

I look at my own life as a comedy of errors. lol.

Hope this helps in some way.
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