Forgiveness vs Atonement

[MustafaMc]

Does the justice of Allah require a sacrificial payment or an off-setting good deed to atone for sin, or can He graciously forgive sin straight away with only the sinner asking Him for forgiveness in sincere repentance?

First to clarify the definition of 2 important words:
Atone - to make amends or reparation, as for an offense or a crime
Forgive - to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.)

From a Christian perspective, does Allah forgive (cancel, erase) a Christian of his sin or is his debt of sins atoned (paid, compensated) for by Jesus' Blood? One may see it as nit-picking but if a debt is forgiven then it is cancelled as a free gift without any payment from anyone. I see an atonement as a payment to offset or substitute for that debt even if the one to whom the debt is owed makes arrangement for its payment. If the debt is to Allah, then I don't see how He can pay or sacrifice Himself for something that is owed to Him. It makes more sense that out of His mercy and with a figurative sweep of His hand, then the sin debt vanishes.

A human repents by feeling regret, asking for forgiveness and intending to not repeat the sin, but how does he make amends? In Islam we make amends or atonement for our sins by offering additional charity, fasts or prayers, but are those deeds required for forgiveness? We have the concept of offsetting sins with good deeds akin to a balancing scale of justice, but this is seen as 'earning' one's salvation. Isn't Allah able to forgive sin with only repentance or is an atonement or payment for sin debt also required?

I personally see that Allah is merciful and forgiving along the lines of "...those who remember God and implore forgiveness for their sins if they do something shameful or wrong themselves - who forgives sins but God?..." (Qur'an, 3:135) If Allah can forgive sins, doesn't that completely negate the basic premise of Christianity - Jesus' supposed sacrifice on the cross as the only possible means of reconciliation with Allah?

[MustafaMc]

This question came up in a recent discussion with a Christian and his wife. I see our additional good deeds as an offering before Allah (swt) in penance, but that in no way means that Allah (swt) will accept them or that they forgiveness will be granted. I see penance as being important to Catholics, but not to Protestants. I also see that additional worship, charity and good deeds are important to a Muslim as he pleads for forgiveness.

It also seems that punishment according to the shariah is also an expiation for sin as exemplified by Ma'iz who came to Prophet Muhammad (saaws) confessing adultery and getting stoned to death as punishment. According to a hadith in Sahih Muslim, Prophet Muhammad said of Ma'iz, "He (Ma'iz) has made such a repentance that if that were to be divided among a people, it would have been enough for all of them." And Allah (swt) knows best what is correct.

[siam]

The Christian concept is based on the premise that human beings are inherently sinful because of "original sin"----that is all human beings are born with "sin". In Islam---nobody is born with sin---we are inherently good (Judaism also like Islam does not have "original sin" and everyone is not born in "sin"). In Islam, (Prophet) Adam (pbuh) is forgiven....so God definitely forgives those who repent if he so chooses.

IMO, in Islam, amends/atonement for wrongdoing would be in the form of hell. However, when wrongdoing is against another human being---then justice requires that amends/atonement be made in life---by going to jail, or compensation or other means of paying for the wrongdoing. That is why the Quran does not have any (worldly) punishments for things such as not praying---or other things that are between man and God---those things are for God to Judge alone. The Quran only speaks of punishments between man and man---for example, the Quran requires 4 witnesses for adultery----which means the offence of adultery was not a private matter between 2 parties but more of a public situation.....thereby making it an offense between man and man instead of man and God. (---any offence between man and God is judged by God alone) ----In reality, in some countries, the lines are not clear and some women are punished for the crime of adultery without any proof, or witnesses...often when they are actually vicitms of rape.

There are also other situations that require a bit of ijtihad---for example, there was a case in S.E.A. where a woman was going to be punished for drinking beer in a bar---the woman was a Muslim----a bar is a public place---however, would this "offence" come under the jurisdiction of man or God?....if drinking caused harm to another--this would be a clear case of requiring justice between man and man----but what if the drinking did not cause any harm to anyone (except perhaps the individual)?, this can be applied to other instances such as immodest clothes, use of drugs...eating in public during Ramadan.....etc. IMO, In a global, multicultural world---one needs to contemplate Justice with compassion and mercy.

[Amigo]

How do you define 'forgiveness of sin'?

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[MustafaMc]

I define 'forgiveness of sin' as an action that only Allah (swt) can do in the same manner that He is the only one who can punish sin. Punishment and forgiveness are flip sides of the same coin. Forgiveness is an erasing of sin from the slate of a person's record as if they never occurred. Forgiveness is different from atonement in that atonement is a payment made to offset or cancel out the sin. In Islam there is nothing whatsoever that I can ever do to benefit Allah (swt) in the smallest way such that I deserve to be rewarded for it and if I am granted Paradise it will be due solely to the mercy and compassion of my Lord. Likewise, in Islam there is nothing that I can do to harm Allah (swt) such that He can not forgive me if I repent of it. If I harm another fellow creature or human being, then on Judgement Day they may exact retribution on me if they had not forgiven me in this life. This is different from sins against Allah (swt) such as ascribing partners with Him as I once did as a Christian. I have repented of that and asked Allah (swt) for forgiveness. Ascribing partners with Allah (swt) is the one sin that will not be forgiven if one does not repent before his death. Since there are many sins that we commit that we are not even aware of to repent of, I believe that Allah (swt) will forgive much on Judgment Day. Regarding the Christians who worshiped him, Jesus is quoted in the Quran 5:118 as saying, "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You, are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise ."

[Amigo]

When you say that 'forgiveness of sin' is like erasing and making as if it never happen. How does this translate in real life.

For example if you cut someone's leg, how does 'erasing' play out?

About ascribing partners to God. Don't worry brother, I know that God is self-sufficient, God need no one.

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

Does the justice of Allah require a sacrificial payment or an off-setting good deed to atone for sin, or can He graciously forgive sin straight away with only the sinner asking Him for forgiveness in sincere repentance?

Christians believe in sacrificial payment when they say that Jesus died for their sins. This concept makes no sense whatsoever. A God who asks that a payment be made before He can forgive a man for his sins would be a horrible God.....certainly not a God who I would find worthy of any worship!

Christians further claim that only a sacrifice as big as God Himself could wipe out the sins of man! And so, they believe that God came in the form of Jesus to offer Himself as a sacrifice so that the payment could be made.

It's a strange thing..... that concept of "original sin". Adam disobeyed God and because of that sin entered the world.....and God was unable to forgive Adam for his disobedience even though he repented. It's a big question.....why wasn't God able to forgive Adam? If He had done so, there would have been no need to come down to earth to offer His Being as a sacrifice.

But the Qur'an makes things absolutely clear. There's no doubt that God created Adam and Eve and that they disobeyed God when they went near the forbidden tree. But we're informed that God turned to Adam in mercy and forgave him. It was simple, sincere repentance that Adam learned from His Lord. That alone was sufficient....and God did not demand any sacrificial payment from Adam in order to forgive him. God does not need any "payment".

Just as we have not paid anything to God for our five senses, for all the blessings, favors and mercy that He has shown towards us, we do not need to pay anything in order to receive His forgiveness. Sincere repentance is all that's needed.....and this is only for our own benefit, not God's.

Alhamdulillahir rabbil al ameen!

[MustafaMc]

I agree with you that it does not make sense that Allah (swt) would require a payment for the penalty of sin to be offset. I believe that Christians have trouble seeing the distinction I am trying to make between "forgiveness" and "atonement". The atoning sacrifice that Jesus supposedly made on the cross is not consistent with the forgiveness in Lord's Prayer or the parabales that Jesus spoke to his disciples.

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

The atoning sacrifice that Jesus supposedly made on the cross is not consistent with the forgiveness in Lord's Prayer or the parabales that Jesus spoke to his disciples.

Yes, isn't it funny? If the sacrifice that Jesus supposedly made on the cross was supposed to pay for all our sins, why why why do Christians still ask the Lord to forgive them in the Lord's prayer?!

If the debt has been paid, then in exchange we were supposed to receive the great forgiveness of God. And this forgiveness of God was meant for ALL people on earth, Christians or not!

This leads to the conclusion that it doesn't even matter if you are not a Christian. You can be an atheist, a Buddhist, a Hindu, a pagan or a sun-worshiper.......it should be perfectly alright with God! There would really be no need for Christian missionaries to leave their homeland and go places to preach their religion!

Ah! But this is not what happens. You are told that you have to become a Christian in order to be saved! You have to believe that Jesus died for your sins. If you don't then you would not be saved. In other words, you will NOT BE FORGIVEN if you do not accept the notion that God died for your sins! And by the way, you are told that God died for your sins to FORGIVE YOU!!!

It makes no sense.

[Who Am I?]

:sl:



Yes, isn't it funny? If the sacrifice that Jesus supposedly made on the cross was supposed to pay for all our sins, why why why do Christians still ask the Lord to forgive them in the Lord's prayer?!

If the debt has been paid, then in exchange we were supposed to receive the great forgiveness of God. And this forgiveness of God was meant for ALL people on earth, Christians or not!

This leads to the conclusion that it doesn't even matter if you are not a Christian. You can be an atheist, a Buddhist, a Hindu, a pagan or a sun-worshiper.......it should be perfectly alright with God! There would really be no need for Christian missionaries to leave their homeland and go places to preach their religion!

Ah! But this is not what happens. You are told that you have to become a Christian in order to be saved! You have to believe that Jesus died for your sins. If you don't then you would not be saved. In other words, you will NOT BE FORGIVEN if you do not accept the notion that God died for your sins! And by the way, you are told that God died for your sins to FORGIVE YOU!!!

It makes no sense.

Funny you should mention this, because this is one thing I am struggling with right now. As a Christian, whenever I pray (which is not as often as it should be, but that is another matter entirely), I pray directly to God, not to Jesus. The Trinity is something I always took for granted whenever I went to church and school as a kid, but now I am having a hard time trying to figure that one out.

I joke around with my other Christian friends sometimes and tell them that Old Testament God is cool because he punishes the wrongdoers, and New Testament Jesus is too soft and forgiving. Old Testament God is the angry old man with the shotgun who dares the teenagers to cut across his lawn, and New Testament Jesus is a hippie.

[Flame of Hope]

Old Testament God is the angry old man with the shotgun who dares the teenagers to cut across his lawn, and New Testament Jesus is a hippie.

You have said it so well!

Isn't it strange that the God of the Old Testament is so different from the God in the New Testament? One can certainly wonder if it is the SAME God!!!

[Flame of Hope]

I pray directly to God, not to Jesus.

It's heart-warming to hear you say that. May God respond to your prayers and guide you. :)

[Who Am I?]

You have said it so well!

Isn't it strange that the God of the Old Testament is so different from the God in the New Testament? One can certainly wonder if it is the SAME God!!!

Oh believe me, I have wondered that many times over the years. The complete reverse in attitude toward humanity has often made me wonder about that very thing.

"God, you used to be angry and it was cool. What happened?"

[Amigo]

It is very interesting how all these comments magnify one same problem in understanding God, the fact that God is eternal not temporal...

God does not change. God is always the same.
All those words (atonement, etc) and scriptures, are clearly from man.
They belong to a specific time and place and people and their mentality.
You can't transport them into the present and expect to grasp them the way the people they were addressed to grasped them with all social and enviromental contexts.

When the Churc teaches that the Bible is the Word of God, it says, Word, not words.
This means that God is capable of transmitting a message through human regular lives.
But the message of God is always integrated and one: God is love.

You will notice that the Bible starts with a marriage story and ends with an other marriage story
A prudent ready would be able to grasp the single message the Bible is transmitting through human history.

The hardship experience with a child in a family gone wrong, will likely use a language inspired from violence while it will be the opposite for a child in a saine family.
Yet, any family is about love. and the message is always the same no matter what goes not in particular family: love is sacred.
Reverance inherits blessings.
Irreverance inherits curses.

This also lead to the real language of God.
When God himself spoke to humanity directly, we don't see contradictions or syllables or human speeches. We see full humanity lived according to the perfect Will of God.
The life of Jesus is the message of God:
The Word of God comes to men directly:
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not - John 1

[Amigo]

As I was saying, I don't use the word 'atonement' here for the reasons mentioned above.

If you want to hear God speaks, go out in nature, See the message written/spoken in the trees, rivers, stars, mountains, volcanos, earthquakes,... and most importantly man.
this is the universal language of God to man.
The OT and the NT were not meant to be public records, they are family books and only family members can understand them for they speak the language they understand.
They were written out of devotion to celebrate the remembrance of the goodness of God to the Family/Church.

So if you want to understand the Christian Faith, look before reading. The Christian Faith was most transmitted through the 'full human language' rather than writtings.
Human can't fit their message only in writtings, how can God fit his in letters. Is God about saving books or saving man?
Man use other things like signs and symbols, hand gestures, hugs, kiss, etc to transmitt a message.
Not everything can be contained in letters of scriptures. So is the message of God.
God can speak to people who don't even know how to read and write.
This is what's special about Christianity.
Faith was transmitted primiarly not trough writtings, but through works of love, symbols on Churches windows, icons, songs, etc...the full dimension of the human person.
This way even a baby can grasp the message without having to worry about written articulations.

At the end God will not consider the words you understood but the life you lived.

Having said this, it is headache to oneself to ponder words expecting to prouve them or refute them.
languages and words have changed through time,
Man is still of the same nature as God created him.
If you want to listen to God, look at man, look at Jesus and his life,
Talk about events and context, not words, especially the words that Jesus himself was not reported saying.

[brmm]

[QUOTE=Amigo;1441569] If you want to hear God speaks, go out in nature, See the message written/spoken in the trees, rivers, stars, mountains, volcanos, earthquakes,... and most importantly man.
We have this idea in the Holy Quran also.

The OT and the NT were not meant to be public records, they are family books and only family members can understand them for they speak the language they understand.
They were written out of devotion to celebrate the remembrance of the goodness of God to the Family/Church.

We do not have this in Islam. God says we made it easy to understand the Quran.

Human can't fit their message only in writtings, how can God fit his in letters.

(If) you are comparing human with God hear, then there is no way for this.

Man use other things like signs and symbols, hand gestures, hugs, kiss, etc to transmitt a message.
Not everything can be contained in letters of scriptures. So is the message of God.

Believe me: if God was not able to put his message in the prophet's mouth, I would not worship my God. Since the prophet is not between us now, we have only what he have said to us in our books. Thats why the first word revealed from the Holy Quran to Mohammed was "READ".

God can speak to people who don't even know how to read and write.
This is what's special about Christianity.

Nothing new: God (ALLAH) did the same with Mohammed through the Arc Angel Gabriel.

Faith was transmitted primiarly not trough writtings, but through works of love, symbols on Churches windows, icons, songs, etc...the full dimension of the human person.

So why there are not many people going to these beautiful churches while many go to the mosque where we have only walls?

This way even a baby can grasp the message without having to worry about written articulations.

I remember one day I have asked my clever Christian friend in the university: please can you explain to me the Trinity, he said: to be honest: I do not know, it is very complicated.

At the end God will not consider the words you understood but the life you lived.

For sure: if God knows that He revealed a not complete book, He will judge you according to it, I guess Gos should be fair!
But if God have revealed a complete book, then He will say to you: Why you did not follow my clear words ?

Having said this, it is headache to oneself to ponder words expecting to prouve them or refute them.
languages and words have changed through time,

But not God's words.

Man is still of the same nature as God created him.
If you want to listen to God, look at man, look at Jesus and his life,

But Jesus is not here?!
In Islam if you need to listen to God, read the Holy Quran.


That was just my comments !
BRMM

[siam]

"It makes no sense."

---frankly, is there anything in Christianity that makes sense?;D...trinity, original sin, crucifixion, salvation--and whatever else they may have---none of it makes any sense whatsoever.......

There is only One God. He is Just, Compassionate and Merciful. He created for a purpose---our purpose is to do God's will (submission/Islam), and God's will is to have right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creation.----there!!!---religion in a nutshell---without the pages and pages of convoluted illogic and unreasonableness......

[MustafaMc]

As I was saying, I don't use the word 'atonement' here for the reasons mentioned above
....

At the end God will not consider the words you understood but the life you lived.

Having said this, it is headache to oneself to ponder words expecting to prouve them or refute them.

Words are merely tools we use to communicate with other human beings. What I am driving at is the fundamental foundation of religion - which is the reconciliation of imperfect beings with their perfect Creator. The very foundation of Christianity is that since God can't be in the presence of sin, and by default in the presence of sinful beings, then the only possible cleansing of sins is through the offering of a perfect sacrifice which happens to be of God Himself. This concept of an atoning sacrifice is contradictory with the mercy of Allah (swt) which I see as a most fundamental and basic aspect of His Being. The fundamental point is that if Allah (swt) can forgive the smallest sin then He can also forgive the largest sin and there is absolutely no need whatsoever of an atoning sacrifice of a dove, a sheep, a human, or even of Allah (swt) Himself. On the flip side, if an atonement is really required, then the concept of forgiveness of sin is a fairy tale and wishful thinking.

Furthermore, I see that this distinction is as important as whether or not Jesus was the 'Son of God' or God Himself incarnate.

Again, for our Cristian members a) can God forgive sin with a figurative sweep of His hand or b) is an atoning sacrifice required for the debt of sin to be paid? If the answer is 'b' then what verse attributed to Jesus makes this concept clearly understandable?

[Who Am I?]

I just got home from attending a local Christian church support group (as my struggle for the truth continues), and I put to them that I did not understand the concept of Jesus and the Trinity. I even used my analogy from earlier about God being the angry old man and Jesus (peace be upon him) being a hippie. They laughed at my humo(u)r, but couldn't really answer the question.

So why does Jesus (peace be upon him) always say that he was the "Son of Man" in the New Testament and not the "Son of God?" And where does the Holy Spirit fit into all of this anyway? Those are two things I admit that I am struggling with right now.

I am considering going to a Qu'ran class at a local masjid tomorrow night. I'll have to call and see if they allow non-Muslims to attend, of course...

[Flame of Hope]

I just got home from attending a local Christian church support group (as my struggle for the truth continues), and I put to them that I did not understand the concept of Jesus and the Trinity. I even used my analogy from earlier about God being the angry old man and Jesus (peace be upon him) being a hippie. They laughed at my humo(u)r, but couldn't really answer the question.

So why does Jesus (peace be upon him) always say that he was the "Son of Man" in the New Testament and not the "Son of God?" And where does the Holy Spirit fit into all of this anyway? Those are two things I admit that I am struggling with right now.

I am considering going to a Qu'ran class at a local masjid tomorrow night. I'll have to call and see if they allow non-Muslims to attend, of course...

So very reminds me of my own self as I struggled to know what the truth was. Believe me, it's a sweet, sweet, sweeeeeet journey going in search of truth. :wub: When you find it, it's like you've found the greatest treasure on earth. The joy is indescribable.

You can read the story of my struggle in search for truth here: How I Became a Muslim

[Who Am I?]

I just read the first part. It sounds a lot like me except for the fact that I was raised as a Christian and always took it for granted that Christianity was the way. I never really questioned it until I was a teenager. Then I became an atheist for a few years in my 20's. Then I was a deist until recently. I believed that there was a God but was not sure who He was. Now I am back to Christianity but am struggling with some concepts of it. Now I am studying Islam and have to admit that a lot of it makes sense to me...

[MustafaMc]

So why does Jesus (peace be upon him) always say that he was the "Son of Man" in the New Testament and not the "Son of God?"

I believe that Jesus referred to himself as the 'Son of Man' to emphasize and to make indisputable his humanity. Perhaps he even knew that people would try to deify him after he was gone. In the Quran Jesus is mentioned over 20 times and nearly ever instance is followed by the title 'Son of Mary', again I believe to make it evidently clear that he is not the 'Son of God'.

And where does the Holy Spirit fit into all of this anyway? Those are two things I admit that I am struggling with right now.

We Muslims believe that the Holy Ghost in the NT is the angel Gabriel. In the Quran he is referred to as Ruh (spirit) Qudus (holy).

[brmm]

I just read the first part. It sounds a lot like me except for the fact that I was raised as a Christian and always took it for granted that Christianity was the way. I never really questioned it until I was a teenager. Then I became an atheist for a few years in my 20's. Then I was a deist until recently. I believed that there was a God but was not sure who He was. Now I am back to Christianity but am struggling with some concepts of it. Now I am studying Islam and have to admit that a lot of it makes sense to me...

Welcome with us, Pre-Brother :)
If you have any question, pls ask us: it is your right to ask us and our duty, as Muslims, to answer you.

I wish that you have read the material I have posted before in the link:
4shared.com/document/OBA20Hqu/The_Truth.html

It is a nice slide show PDF file with active links, free from viruses 100% :)

BRMM

[brmm]

I just read the first part. It sounds a lot like me except for the fact that I was raised as a Christian and always took it for granted that Christianity was the way. I never really questioned it until I was a teenager. Then I became an atheist for a few years in my 20's. Then I was a deist until recently. I believed that there was a God but was not sure who He was. Now I am back to Christianity but am struggling with some concepts of it. Now I am studying Islam and have to admit that a lot of it makes sense to me...

Pls have the time to see this material about Crucifixion.
Brother Ahmad Deedat was one of the best who debate Christian.

youtube.com/watch?v=BbMzCkHOBhE

BRMM

[Who Am I?]

Well I'm at work right now and they don't allow streaming video here (fasicts!), so I will have to check out those links when I get home tonight.

I do want to say that I appreciate the openness and honesty that I have found here so far. I was a bit wary about stepping in here as an unbeliever, but I feel more comfortable here than I do in some of the churches where I live.

[boriqee]

Does the justice of Allah require a sacrificial payment or an off-setting good deed to atone for sin, or can He graciously forgive sin straight away with only the sinner asking Him for forgiveness in sincere repentance?

First to clarify the definition of 2 important words:
Atone - to make amends or reparation, as for an offense or a crime
Forgive - to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.)

From a Christian perspective, does Allah forgive (cancel, erase) a Christian of his sin or is his debt of sins atoned (paid, compensated) for by Jesus' Blood? One may see it as nit-picking but if a debt is forgiven then it is cancelled as a free gift without any payment from anyone. I see an atonement as a payment to offset or substitute for that debt even if the one to whom the debt is owed makes arrangement for its payment. If the debt is to Allah, then I don't see how He can pay or sacrifice Himself for something that is owed to Him. It makes more sense that out of His mercy and with a figurative sweep of His hand, then the sin debt vanishes.

A human repents by feeling regret, asking for forgiveness and intending to not repeat the sin, but how does he make amends? In Islam we make amends or atonement for our sins by offering additional charity, fasts or prayers, but are those deeds required for forgiveness? We have the concept of offsetting sins with good deeds akin to a balancing scale of justice, but this is seen as 'earning' one's salvation. Isn't Allah able to forgive sin with only repentance or is an atonement or payment for sin debt also required?

I personally see that Allah is merciful and forgiving along the lines of "...those who remember God and implore forgiveness for their sins if they do something shameful or wrong themselves - who forgives sins but God?..." (Qur'an, 3:135) If Allah can forgive sins, doesn't that completely negate the basic premise of Christianity - Jesus' supposed sacrifice on the cross as the only possible means of reconciliation with Allah?

asalamu alaikum

the subject matter actually stems from a more ideological (or I should say doctrinal) issue with regards to the performance of actions being a necessitating factor of faith itself.

In Islam there is nothing whatsoever that I can ever do to benefit Allah (swt) in the smallest way such that I deserve to be rewarded for it and if I am granted Paradise it will be due solely to the mercy and compassion of my Lord.

Try not to think of it in terms of who our compensation is for the benefit of Allah, but for the benefit of ourselves.

If Allah established the rules for compensation, in reality those rules were set in place for the benefits of our own soul.

This is why it is most proper to say that our committal of sins opens ourselves up to the punishment o Allah and our abandonment of evil and the adoption of good opens ourselves up for the Mercy of Allah. This is so as to not absolutely condemn a person for doing evil because Allah may forgive him and likewise to congratulate a person for being righteous because it is only through the Mercy of Allah that enters one in jannah.

As for the christians, their doctrine has what we in Islam know as irjaa.

asalamu alaikum

[MustafaMc]

This is why it is most proper to say that our committal of sins opens ourselves up to the punishment o Allah and our abandonment of evil and the adoption of good opens ourselves up for the Mercy of Allah. This is so as to not absolutely condemn a person for doing evil because Allah may forgive him and likewise to congratulate a person for being righteous because it is only through the Mercy of Allah that enters one in jannah.

I agree. We aren't able to judge intentions and we don't know one's condition upon his death.

As for the christians, their doctrine has what we in Islam know as irjaa.

Please, explain what 'irjaa' is.

[Amigo]

Ok brothers

I came here to learn more about Islamic way of thinking and so far I am learning certainly. One thing that is clear is numereous pre-conceived ideas the Muslim world have on Christianity, it is amazing. It does not help when they can be easly linked to something real, but they are still preconceived and it makes it harder to explain the real thing.

The last posts reminded me of a priest on youtube who has inspired how the understanding of my faith in a such a way that I am able to make a clear distinction between other Faiths as well as atheists. In the clips that I would like to recommend, he covers all these questions one by one in ordered way, and he is not talking to non-Christians (not trying to convert non-christians), which makes it easy case study for non-Christians. You can put his name in the youtube search box and add one of these words: Creation, Fall, The Cross and Resurrection, how Jesus is Messaiah, Israel Church Law, Judgement, Hell.
His name is Fr. Barron. He also have many clips called 'faith seeks understanding'. They cover more under Q/A form from who/what God is to the last judgment.

For those who have asked me questions, please check out those videos, you will then have an idea of where I am coming from and it will be easy to dialogue. Othewise, it is looking like some scenes from 'The Gods Must Be Crazy' movie.

God bless

[MustafaMc]

Amigo,

I am a former Christian and I have an understanding of Protestant Christian theology. My questions are not based on preconceived ideas, but are the result of a recent conversation I had with a Christian and his wife. A conversation takes 2 people discussing the same issue - something that you seem not to want to participate in. This forum is 'Comparative Religion' and I am most clearly comparing Christianity with Islam.

My intention is to demonstrate the Truth of Islam and that the foundation of Christianity is based on a fallacious myth that sin MUST be punished. I have done this with the use of merely 2 words - 'forgiveness' and 'atonement'. Foregiveness is wiping clean the record of offense or debt without any payment being made; whereas, atonement is an offsetting sacrifice or payment or good action to substitute for punishment for the offense. There is a subtle difference between these 2 words and concepts, but the importance of these differences are magnificently huge. If God can forgive a debt (of sin) just as the sinner has forgiven debts (of offense) against him, then where is the need for Jesus' supposed ultimate redeeming sacrifice on the cross? The Lord's Prayer, nor any of Jesus' parables, makes no mention of the need for a redeeming sacrifice, the only one acceptable of which is his own life.

[al yunan]

For those who have asked me questions, please check out those videos, you will then have an idea of where I am coming from and it will be easy to dialogue. Othewise, it is looking like some scenes from 'The Gods Must Be Crazy' movie.

Salam Amigo,

I think you fail to realise that the majority of people who are responding to you, myself included are ex Christians.:embarrass
Your underhand and to your mind subtle references and hints to our ignorance:raging: makes you a person, who should wish and pray to be a tenth of a human being of that man who stared in the above mentioned movie. ;D
I spend part of my military stint in the Kalahari so I speak from experience.
Your name suggests Hispanic origin plus as you say catholic, I happen to be living in Spain when Franco :Evil:died and the number one best seller within days of his demise, became the Bible in Spanish, which up to then was strictly prohibited and what followed soon after the Bible's public release, the well known Exodus. :muddlehea
So return to your roots and call your brethren back to rule of Paul and let us be for you have more of a chance of turning into an aquatic mammal, before getting one of us to even accept your words, never mind concidering them.:statisfie

Masalam

[MustafaMc]

Quoting from the Bible, Matthew 18:23-27 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. This passage is most evidently clear an illustration (directly attributed to Jesus) of straight away forgiveness with no payment by anyone whatsover. I am also reminded of the parable of the Prodigal Son as an illustration of forgiveness.

As a former Christian, I once saw that the sacrifice that God (as Jesus) made to come to earth and die a horrible death on the cross so that I may have remission of sin and gain eternal life was a wondrous illustration of God's love for humanity. I now see the attribute of Allah (swt) to forgive sin as an illustration of His majesty, mercy and compassion as so often repeated in Islam - Bismillah ar-Rahmani ar-Rheem (In the name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate). Supreme glory and praise to Allah alone, the Lord of the universe and all that exists, and the Master of the Day of Judgment!

[Amigo]

Salam Amigo,

I think you fail to realise that the majority of people who are responding to you, myself included are ex Christians.:embarrass
Your underhand and to your mind subtle references and hints to our ignorance:raging: makes you a person, who should wish and pray to be a tenth of a human being of that man who stared in the above mentioned movie. ;D
I spend part of my military stint in the Kalahari so I speak from experience.
Your name suggests Hispanic origin plus as you say catholic, I happen to be living in Spain when Franco :Evil:died and the number one best seller within days of his demise, became the Bible in Spanish, which up to then was strictly prohibited and what followed soon after the Bible's public release, the well known Exodus. :muddlehea
So return to your roots and call your brethren back to rule of Paul and let us be for you have more of a chance of turning into an aquatic mammal, before getting one of us to even accept your words, never mind concidering them.:statisfie

Masalam

I am a Christian I can handle that.

[Amigo]

Amigo,

I am a former Christian and I have an understanding of Protestant Christian theology. My questions are not based on preconceived ideas, but are the result of a recent conversation I had with a Christian and his wife. A conversation takes 2 people discussing the same issue - something that you seem not to want to participate in. This forum is 'Comparative Religion' and I am most clearly comparing Christianity with Islam.

My intention is to demonstrate the Truth of Islam and that the foundation of Christianity is based on a fallacious myth that sin MUST be punished. I have done this with the use of merely 2 words - 'forgiveness' and 'atonement'. Foregiveness is wiping clean the record of offense or debt without any payment being made; whereas, atonement is an offsetting sacrifice or payment or good action to substitute for punishment for the offense. There is a subtle difference between these 2 words and concepts, but the importance of these differences are magnificently huge. If God can forgive a debt (of sin) just as the sinner has forgiven debts (of offense) against him, then where is the need for Jesus' supposed ultimate redeeming sacrifice on the cross? The Lord's Prayer, nor any of Jesus' parables, makes no mention of the need for a redeeming sacrifice, the only one acceptable of which is his own life.

People are always defining their own Christianity, It has been done from the beginning. If someone define his own Christinity and set on to disprouve it, well, it's like designing a game and playing it yourself.
In reality, when laws are not respected, injuries and death happen.
Restoration/Mercy consists of healing the wounds or raising from the dead. It is never about cancellation of the desrespect that happened at the beginning.
Forgiveness of sin is about healing and restoring, men who are wounded by their own sins when they disrespected the good laws of the Lord. It is not about imaginary
cancellations.
Justice of God is about good laws that keep in life and healing and restoring. It is not about punishment. God does not need anything or to be paid for anything.
Jesus suffered and died because this is the condition of man, the world of man. Man suffers and dies. The worst die as criminals under punishment.
The greatest wound to heal, is death and death related to crimes.
The point of the Cross is that the Power of God's Mercy can reach the greatests wounds and can heal them. It can reach the most miserable human beings wherever he may be, alive or dead.
The Power of God does not opperate in imagination, but in reality.

[al yunan]

I am a Christian I can handle that.

You mean you "all" are ?:nervous:
Any way I for one don't think so, that you are Christian. :Evil:
Even through the PC the fumes of sulpher, come !:Evil:
Behind me art thou ! ! !:Evil:

[Who Am I?]

Sulphur? Did someone fart?

*Ducks*

Sorry, just trying to bring some humo(u)r into the thread...

[MustafaMc]

People are always defining their own Christianity, It has been done from the beginning. If someone define his own Christinity and set on to disprouve it, well, it's like designing a game and playing it yourself.

The best that I can tell you are making up what you write as you go. Your words are illogical and they are not backed up by any scripture. As far as I am concerned your words are merely hearsay.

[siam]

I find the type of answers such as that from Amigo fairly typical of Christianity----it seems to be a "Chrsitian thing" to so inundate a person with nonsensical terms that one hopefuly forgets the question in their attempts to figure out the answer-----which is an impossibility because the answer itself makes no sense anyway....and persisting on getting an answer that does make sense ends up with the typical "its a mystery" bit.......

[boriqee]

Please, explain what 'irjaa' is.

irjaa is a creedal doctrine that was innovated into some groups among the Muslims who altered the view of faith and disbelief from the traditional orthodox doctrine.

to be extremely brief and to the point, two statements should be enough


Abu Na’im who narrates from Sufyān Ath-Thawrī that he said,

The Murji’ah differed from us in three matters: We say that Īmān is sayings and actions and they say that Īmān is sayings without actions. We say that it increases and decreases and they say that it does not increase and that it does not decrease. We say that we are Mu.minūn (only with) approval (i.e. by saying Inshā-Allāh) and they say that we are (guaranteed) Mu.minūn in the eyes of Allāh
Hilyat Al-.Awliyā.., Vol. 7/29


The Murji’ah are of four types:
1: Those who say that eemaan is merely knowledge (ma’rifah), even if this is not accompanied by testification (tasdeeq) .
This is the statement of the Jahmiyyah.
This is the most evil and the ugliest of statements. It is in fact disbelief (kufr) in Allah Azza wa Jall, because the mushrikoon from the early times, and Pharaoh (Firawn), and Haamaan and Qaaroon and (even) Iblees all acknowledged (the existence) of Allaah, Azza wa Jall, in their hearts. However because they did not state this on their tongues, nor testify to this in their hearts, nor act upon it with their limbs, then this knowledge did not benefit them.
2: Those who say that emaan is testification in the heart only.
This is the statement of the Ashaa’irah (the Ash’arees).
This is also a false statement since the disbelievers (kuffaar) testify in their hearts, they know that the Quraan is True and that the Messenger (sal Allaahu alaiyhi wa sallam) is True, and the Jews and Christians know that.
Those to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognise him (Muhammad sal Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) as they recognise their sons; but verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it – [i.e. the qualities of Muhammad sal Allaahu alaihi wa sallam which are written in the Tawraat and the Injeel]. (Surah Al Baqarah: 146)
And they testify to it in their hearts.
Allaah Ta'aala says regarding the Mushrikoon: We know indeed the grief which their words cause you (O Muhammad sal Allaahu alaihi wa sallam); it is not you that they deny but it is the Ayaat of Allaah that the Dhaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers) deny. (Surah Al An’aam: 33)
So these people did not state upon their tongues nor did they act with their limbs, yet they did testify in their hearts – so they did not become people of eemaan (mu’minoon).
3: The statement of those who are the direct opposite of the Ashaa’irah - and they are the Karaamiyah. Those who say that eemaan is statement on the tongue even if the person does not truly believe in his heart.
Without doubt, this is a false statement since the hypocrites (munaafiqoon) – those who are in the lowest depths of the Fire – say “We bear witness that laa ilaaha ill Allaah and that Muhammad rasool ullaah’ with their tongues and they act (accordingly) with their limbs, but they do not truly believe in that nor do they testify to it in their hearts.
This is just as Allaah Ta'aala says: When the hypocrites come to you (O Muhammad sal Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) they say: ‘We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of Allaah’. And Allaah knows that you are indeed His Messenger and Allaah bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed. They have made their oaths a screen (for their hypocrisy). In this way they hinder (men) from the Path of Allaah. Verily, evil is what they used to do. (Surah Al Munaafiqoon: 1-2)
And He says, Subhaanahu wa ta’aala: They say with their tongues what is not in their hearts. (Surah Al Fath: 11)
4: The statement of the murji’ah al fuqahaa, and they are the lightest of the groups in terms of irjaa’ - those who say that eemaan is belief (i’tiqaad) in the heart and statement upon the tongue, but action does not enter into it.
This is the statement of the Murji’ah al-Fuqahaa and this is a statement which is also incorrect since there is no emaan without action.”


asalamu alaikum

[boriqee]

People are always defining their own Christianity, It has been done from the beginning. If someone define his own Christinity and set on to disprouve it, well, it's like designing a game and playing it yourself.

well, what exactly do you think Christianity is? There is no criterion that exist in Christianity whereby orthodoxy and heresy can be clearly defined. That mechanism is simply non existent in christiandome.

The point of the Cross is that the Power of God's Mercy can reach the greatests wounds and can heal them. It can reach the most miserable human beings wherever he may be, alive or dead.
The Power of God does not opperate in imagination, but in reality.

God needed to allow for His enemies to capture His chosen one, Jesus alaihi salam, so as to convince man that Mercy can reach the greatest if wounds. So you seriously believe that that is reality and not the epitome of imagination?

[Flame of Hope]

I personally see that Allah is merciful and forgiving along the lines of "...those who remember God and implore forgiveness for their sins if they do something shameful or wrong themselves - who forgives sins but God?..." (Qur'an, 3:135) If Allah can forgive sins, doesn't that completely negate the basic premise of Christianity - Jesus' supposed sacrifice on the cross as the only possible means of reconciliation with Allah?

One might compare the concept of God in Islam versus the concept of God in Christianity and decide for himself which concept befits God the best.

Here is a hadith about God's great might, power, wisdom and His forgiveness.......

-----------------------------

Sa'id ibn 'Abdu'l-'Aziz from Rabi'a ibn Yazid from Abu Idris al-Khawlani from Abu Dharr Jundub ibn Junada reported from the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, in what is related from what Allah the Blessed and Almighty said,

"O My slaves! I have forbidden injustice to Myself and I have made it unlawful between you, so do not wrong one another.

O My slaves! All of you are misguided except those that I guide, so seek My guidance and I will guide you.

O My slaves! All of you are hungry except those that I feed so ask me for food and I will feed you.

O My slaves! All of you are naked except those that I clothe so ask me for clothing and I will clothe you.

O My slaves! You make mistakes by night and by day and I forgive all wrong actions so ask for My forgiveness and I will forgive you.

O My slaves! You will never attain to My harm so as to be able to harm Me and you will never attain to My benefit so as to be able benefit Me.

O My slaves! If the first and last of you, all the jinn and all the men among you, possessed the heart of the most God-fearing man among you, that would not increase My kingdom in any way.

O My slaves! If the first and last of you, all the jinn and all the men among you, possessed the heart of the most evil man among you, that would not decrease My kingdom in any way. O My slaves!

If the first and last of you, all the jinn and all the men among you, were to stand in a single place and ask of Me, I could give to every man what he asks without that decreasing what I have any more than a needle when it enters the sea.

O My slaves! It is your actions for which I call you to account and then repay you in full.

So anyone who finds good should praise Allah and anyone who finds something else should blame none but himself."

Sa'id said, "When Abu Idris related this hadith, he knelt."

Muslim related it and we related it from Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, may Allah have mercy on him, who said, "The people of Syria do not have any hadith nobler than this hadith."

---------------------------------

Such is our God in Islam. :wub:

Compare Him to the God in Christianity who "died" for our sins...... and who demands a sacrificial payment from us in order to show forgiveness. :exhausted

Which God is greater?

The answer is obvious.

[Amigo]

well, what exactly do you think Christianity is? There is no criterion that exist in Christianity whereby orthodoxy and heresy can be clearly defined. That mechanism is simply non existent in christiandome.

Just because you haven't found one, it does not mean it does not exist.

God needed to allow for His enemies to capture His chosen one, Jesus alaihi salam, so as to convince man that Mercy can reach the greatest if wounds. So you seriously believe that that is reality and not the epitome of imagination?

God does not need anything.
The only interest of God is the joy of men who love life.
He comes to men who want to live,
A wound is not a product of imagination. A healing and restoration is not a production of imagination either.
In fact one who has been healed is more sure in is faith.

[MustafaMc]

irjaa is a creedal doctrine that was innovated into some groups among the Muslims who altered the view of faith and disbelief from the traditional orthodox doctrine.

Jazak Allahu khair, akhi. I learned something today. What your post brought to my mind was the Bible verses James 2:17-18 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

[MustafaMc]

Just because you haven't found one, it does not mean it does not exist.

OK, then define what orthodox Christian doctrine is regarding forgiveness vs atonement for sin.

The only interest of God is the joy of men who love life.
He comes to men who want to live,
A wound is not a product of imagination. A healing and restoration is not a production of imagination either.
In fact one who has been healed is more sure in is faith.

Give me Biblical verses that back up what you say. I have never read where, "The only interest of God is the joy of men who love life." This sounds more humanistic and Masonic than Christian to me.

[MustafaMc]

One might compare the concept of God in Islam versus the concept of God in Christianity and decide for himself which concept befits God the best.

Here is a hadith about God's great might, power, wisdom and His forgiveness....

O My slaves! You make mistakes by night and by day and I forgive all wrong actions so ask for My forgiveness and I will forgive you.

Ukhti Flame, this is exactly what I have been talking about.

Which God is greater?

I prefer to not use this kind of language because there is only One God; however, there are differing concepts and understandings of the Divine Being and there are those who ascribe various partners with Him and those who worship other than Allah. The Islamic concept of the Divine Being as illustrated by the hadith you quoted is clearly superior to the one where He must become human and die a horrible death as the only means for the redemption of His created beings.

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

I prefer to not use this kind of language because there is only One God

There is only One God. Wish people would understand that......

But here is a comparison again based upon the hadith I had posted earlier:

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! I have forbidden injustice to Myself and I have made it unlawful between you, so do not wrong one another.

Christianity

God says: "O My slaves! Do as you please. I have died for your sins. I gave my only begotten son. I am my son and the Holy Ghost. I am part of the Trinity. I am 3 in 1. You just have to believe this and all your sins would be forgiven."

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! All of you are misguided except those that I guide, so seek My guidance and I will guide you."

Christianity

God says: "O my slaves! Sin entered this world when Adam and Eve disobeyed me. The only way to save all of you was to send my Son and sacrifice him. None of you can be guided because all of you are sinners. All sins are equal in my eyes."

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! You make mistakes by night and by day and I forgive all wrong actions so ask for My forgiveness and I will forgive you.

Christianity

God says: "O My slaves! I couldn't forgive Adam and Eve and I cannot forgive you unless you accept that I died for your sins. I made a huge sacrificial payment for the sin that Adam committed. I sent my only begotten son. I will only forgive you if you believe that Jesus is my son. I and he are the same. Including the Holy Ghost which makes the Trinity."

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! You will never attain to My harm so as to be able to harm Me and you will never attain to My benefit so as to be able benefit Me.

Christianity:

God says: "O my slaves! I make mistakes sometimes. I regret creating Adam and Eve because they disobeyed me. I then had to send my son to pay for your sins. My son and I are the same. So you killed me, crucified me on the cross and made me suffer much. But you will make happy if you accept that I died for your sins. I will forgive you even though you caused me so much suffering."

----------------------

What makes more sense? ^o)

Christians, do feel free to correct me if the statements regarding the Christian God are incorrect. Thanks.

[Amigo]

So anyone who finds good should praise Allah and anyone who finds something else should blame none but himself."

Very true. I like this.

[MustafaMc]

:sl:
There is only One God. Wish people would understand that......

But here is a comparison again based upon the hadith I had posted earlier:

I thought each of your comparisons were valid and indicative of the differences.

[Who Am I?]

:sl:



There is only One God. Wish people would understand that......

That is why I ruled out Hinduism, Buddhism, and Shinto as possible religions once I got over my atheism.

Well that, and the fact that I like steak too much to give up beef (sorry, Hinduism).

[MustafaMc]

Comments from elsewhere by Christians.

Christian #1 No one can go to the Father God, except through Jesus Christ the Son.. . . It is by His Blood we are forgiven and saved from sin. ... we have Jesus Christ, who speaks to the Father in our defense. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins. ... God did not accept a human sacrifice. . God is Jesus in flesh. . He sacrificed himself . . .

Christian #2 no need for sacrifical payment, God does not accept human sacrifice ... How could God accept a human sacrifice while abhorring sacrifices to other so-called 'gods'? ... Jesus was/is the Son of God but it was a human death. From a divine point of view coming into the world was a sacrifice. And for his death to have sacrificial significance for other human beings it would have to be the sacrificial death of a human, but I stand by what I said before. ... and ... ‎'if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you' ...

These Christians did not agree on the sacrificial atonement for sin in their answers to the question, "Does the justice of God require a sacrificial payment to atone for sin or can He mercifully forgive sin straight away with only the sinner asking Him for forgiveness in sincere repentance?"

My understanding of the Islamic perspective is that Allah (swt) can forgive all sin if one repents and may even forgive sin (except for shirk) without repentance according to His mercy and Divine will. Who can question the Judgment of Allah (swt) as unjust and unmerciful? Even yet I believe that it is best to repent of sin we are aware of and to offer additional prayers, fasting and charity with the intention of off-setting a bad deed with a good one. I don't believe that anyone can bear or atone or intercede for the sins of others even though I believe that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) will intercede with Allah (swt) by His permission for the eventual ending of punishment for those believers sent to the Hellfire. I walk a fine line between hope in the mercy of Allah (swt) for the forgiveness of my sins and fear of His wrathful punishment. I stand on nothing but the promises of Allah (swt) made in the Quran for forgiveness to those who believe and do good deeds.

[Who Am I?]

OK, another question.

What is "shirk"? You mentioned that it is the only unforgivable sin, so what is it?

[Tyrion]

OK, another question.

What is "shirk"? You mentioned that it is the only unforgivable sin, so what is it?

Basically, it's any form of attributing partners to God. I suppose you can think of it as breaking the first Commandment... There are varying degrees of shirk though, and thats a discussion in itself... I'll let other members elaborate further.

[MustafaMc]

OK, another question.

What is "shirk"? You mentioned that it is the only unforgivable sin, so what is it?

According to wikipedia:

In Islam, shirk is the sin of idolatry or polytheism, i.e. the deification or worship of anyone or anything other than the singular God, or more literally the establishment of "partners" placed beside God. It is the vice that is opposed to the virtue of tawhid (monotheism). Within Islam, shirk is an unforgivable crime; God may forgive any sin except for committing shirk ... In the context of the Qur'an, the particular sense of "sharing as an equal partner" is usually understood, so that polytheism is "attributing a partner to Allah". ...

My understanding is that shirk is ascribing partners or equals with Allah (swt). We know that many mushrikun repented and converted to Islam, for example with the conquest of Mecca. We also know that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) pleaded with his polytheistic uncle, Abu Talib, on his death bed saying, "O uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshiped but Allah, a sentence with which I shall be a witness for you before Allah." Even though as a Christian I once worshiped Jesus as God, I have repented and asked Allah (swt) to forgive me.

Christians are shown to commit the sin of shirk as shown by John 3:16 and the Quran 19:88-92 They say: "((Allah)) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for ((Allah)) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

My understanding is that it would not be a good thing to die as a Christian, worshiping Jesus as God. The concepts of Trinity and Tawhid are definitive in distinguishing the 2 religions.

[Ramadhan]

What is "shirk"? You mentioned that it is the only unforgivable sin, so what is it?

"shirk" is the first commandment that you find in the ten commandments.

it's not accurate to say shirk is unforgivable.
As long as anyone repent while still alive, ALL sin is forgiveable, including shirk. shirk only becomes unforgivable when one dies in the state of shirk: that is, died while ascribing partners to Allah.

[Who Am I?]

Got it. I thought that's what it was, but I wasn't sure.

Thanks everyone. I continue to learn something new every day I am here.

[MustafaMc]

it's not accurate to say shirk is unforgivable.
As long as anyone repent while still alive, ALL sin is forgiveable, including shirk. shirk only becomes unforgivable when one dies in the state of shirk: that is, died while ascribing partners to Allah.

Is it safe to say that other sins may be forgiven even without repentance before death as long as the sin is not shirk?

[al yunan]

Is it safe to say that other sins may be forgiven even without repentance before death as long as the sin is not shirk?

Assalamu Alaikum brother,

Maybe one should define the type of Shirk, as now days due to modern perceptions some forms of Shirk are over looked i.e

The Shirk of fearing anyone else than Allah S.W.T
The Shirk of not seeking Allah S.W.T's help first
The Shirk of placing our trust in anyone else than Allah S.W.T
To name but a few of the hidden Shirk

Masalam

[Flame of Hope]

Is it safe to say that other sins may be forgiven even without repentance before death as long as the sin is not shirk?

Difficult question.

Whoever sins and does not repent may not be forgiven..... but be sent to Hell to be purged before allowed entry into Jannah.

The sin that a man considers minor is a great sin in the eyes of Allah.

The sin that a man considers major and repents for becomes a minor sin that Allah can easily forgive.

So a lot depends on the attitude of the person committing sins..... and whether those sins were committed out of ignorance or not. One cannot be held accountable for what he doesn't know.

It's the Day of Judgment................ a day to fear. Not a single one of us knows for sure what will happen to us...... no matter how pious and righteous we may be, no matter how much we may be of those who do not indulge in shirk.

The Prophet (saws) himself declared that he had no idea what would become of him! So what are we in comparison? :scared:

[Amigo]

According to wikipedia:

In Islam, shirk is the sin of idolatry or polytheism, i.e. the deification or worship of anyone or anything other than the singular God, or more literally the establishment of "partners" placed beside God. It is the vice that is opposed to the virtue of tawhid (monotheism). Within Islam, shirk is an unforgivable crime; God may forgive any sin except for committing shirk ... In the context of the Qur'an, the particular sense of "sharing as an equal partner" is usually understood, so that polytheism is "attributing a partner to Allah". ...

My understanding is that shirk is ascribing partners or equals with Allah (swt). We know that many mushrikun repented and converted to Islam, for example with the conquest of Mecca. We also know that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) pleaded with his polytheistic uncle, Abu Talib, on his death bed saying, "O uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshiped but Allah, a sentence with which I shall be a witness for you before Allah." Even though as a Christian I once worshiped Jesus as God, I have repented and asked Allah (swt) to forgive me.

Christians are shown to commit the sin of shirk as shown by John 3:16 and the Quran 19:88-92 They say: "((Allah)) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for ((Allah)) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

My understanding is that it would not be a good thing to die as a Christian, worshiping Jesus as God. The concepts of Trinity and Tawhid are definitive in distinguishing the 2 religions.

In other words, shirk is the sin of being Christian; Christianity as defined by Islam of course.

[Amigo]

:sl:



There is only One God. Wish people would understand that......

But here is a comparison again based upon the hadith I had posted earlier:

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! I have forbidden injustice to Myself and I have made it unlawful between you, so do not wrong one another.

Christianity

God says: "O My slaves! Do as you please. I have died for your sins. I gave my only begotten son. I am my son and the Holy Ghost. I am part of the Trinity. I am 3 in 1. You just have to believe this and all your sins would be forgiven."

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! All of you are misguided except those that I guide, so seek My guidance and I will guide you."

Christianity

God says: "O my slaves! Sin entered this world when Adam and Eve disobeyed me. The only way to save all of you was to send my Son and sacrifice him. None of you can be guided because all of you are sinners. All sins are equal in my eyes."

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! You make mistakes by night and by day and I forgive all wrong actions so ask for My forgiveness and I will forgive you.

Christianity

God says: "O My slaves! I couldn't forgive Adam and Eve and I cannot forgive you unless you accept that I died for your sins. I made a huge sacrificial payment for the sin that Adam committed. I sent my only begotten son. I will only forgive you if you believe that Jesus is my son. I and he are the same. Including the Holy Ghost which makes the Trinity."

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! You will never attain to My harm so as to be able to harm Me and you will never attain to My benefit so as to be able benefit Me.

Christianity:

God says: "O my slaves! I make mistakes sometimes. I regret creating Adam and Eve because they disobeyed me. I then had to send my son to pay for your sins. My son and I are the same. So you killed me, crucified me on the cross and made me suffer much. But you will make happy if you accept that I died for your sins. I will forgive you even though you caused me so much suffering."

----------------------

What makes more sense? ^o)

Christians, do feel free to correct me if the statements regarding the Christian God are incorrect. Thanks.

Hello sister from Cloud Nine,

I thought Christians see themselves as childreen of God, not slaves of God.
Well, I know myself, can't speak for others really.
I always find it more honest to quote or paraphrase from official and authoritative sources, do you mind sharing what you mean by 'Christianity' and who are you quoting or paraphrasing. If you don't have a real source, then don't you think you are misleading people? saying things yourself and pretending to get it from someone else?

Of course that was only one basic point, can't even begin about the others...

[Amigo]

OK, then define what orthodox Christian doctrine is regarding forgiveness vs atonement for sin.Give me Biblical verses that back up what you say. I have never read where, "The only interest of God is the joy of men who love life." This sounds more humanistic and Masonic than Christian to me.

Christianity exists before the Bible. If what I am saying is true, it does not need the biblical verses to back it up.

[brmm]

In other words, shirk is the sin of being Christian; Christianity as defined by Islam of course.

Hello Amigo, nice to chat with u again, welcome back :)

Any one, under any title or name even if he called himself Muslim, who believes that there is any kind of god beside Allah, he would be considered as a great sinner (committing shirk).
Q 04:48 "Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin"

If the Christian wish to believe in one (1 only) god then they will not be in this category and if they believe in Trinity they will be, unfortunately, withing this category, and thats why we are writing in this forum.

BRMM

[brmm]

I forget to say something, In Islam we do not have the name Christianity in the Holy Quran.

The word used by the Quran is "Nasaraa" which means the helpers/ supporters of Jesus. The word Christian used in the translations because the non-Arabic do not understand the word Nasaraa. Christ supposed to be from the Greek word Christos which supposed to be mean "Messiah", but I do not know why the Bible have used Christ and Messiah together if they are the same word exactly,

John 04:25 "The woman said, "I know the Messiah is coming--the one who is called Christ. When he comes, he will explain everything to us"

BRMM

[MustafaMc]

Christianity exists before the Bible. If what I am saying is true, it does not need the biblical verses to back it up.

I can tell you are not from among 'The People of the Scripture'. What is the source of the authority in anything you say? I assume it is direct revelation to you just like to Saul. If you do not have a documented source for what you say, then you can easily make it up as you go - which seems to me what you are doing. I still think you are a Mason or something else besides what you say.

[brmm]

I forget to say something, In Islam we do not have the name Christianity in the Holy Quran.

The word used by the Quran is "Nasaraa" which means the helpers/ supporters of Jesus. The word Christian used in the translations because the non-Arabic do not understand the word Nasaraa. Christ supposed to be from the Greek word Christos which supposed to be mean "Messiah", but I do not know why the Bible have used Christ and Messiah together if they are the same word exactly,

John 04:25 "The woman said, "I know the Messiah is coming--the one who is called Christ. When he comes, he will explain everything to us"

BRMM

Good news :)
I was right, Alhamdolillah/thanks Allah, I have read the Aramaic Bible and I could not find the part "the one who is called Christ" and this gives explanation for every thing.

Is it that easy to add words to God's book ?!

BRMM

[brmm]

Good news :)
I was right, Alhamdolillah/thanks Allah, I have read the Aramaic Bible and I could not find the part "the one who is called Christ" and this gives explanation for every thing.

Is it that easy to add words to God's book ?!

BRMM

I just want to make everything clear, I have checked [TO BE FAIR WITH MYSELF ALSO], if they have this part "the one who is called Christ" as a part of the text or as an extra explanation for the verse.
I found that they have add it as a part of the text, because they have it in all the translations. except for one, who have wrote it at the end also of the verse.

New International Version (©1984)
The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
New Living Translation (©2007)
The woman said, "I know the Messiah is coming--the one who is called Christ. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."

English Standard Version (©2001)
The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."

International Standard Version (©2008)
The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming, who is being called 'Christ'. When that person comes, he will explain everything."

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The woman said to him, "I know that the Messiah is coming. When he comes, he will tell us everything." ([Messiah] is the one called [Christ].)

King James Bible
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

American King James Version
The woman said to him, I know that Messias comes, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

American Standard Version
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh (he that is called Christ): when he is come, he will declare unto us all things.

Bible in Basic English
The woman said to him, I am certain that the Messiah, who is named Christ, is coming; when he comes he will make all things clear to us.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The woman saith to him: I know that the Messias cometh (who is called Christ); therefore, when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Darby Bible Translation
The woman says to him, I know that Messias is coming, who is called Christ; when he comes he will tell us all things.

English Revised Version
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh (which is called Christ): when he is come, he will declare unto us all things.

Webster's Bible Translation
The woman saith to him, I know that Messiah cometh, who is called Christ; when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Weymouth New Testament
"I know," replied the woman, "that Messiah is coming--'the Christ,' as He is called. When He has come, He will tell us everything."

World English Bible
The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah comes," (he who is called Christ). "When he has come, he will declare to us all things."

Young's Literal Translation
The woman saith to him, 'I have known that Messiah doth come, who is called Christ, when that one may come, he will tell us all things;'

BRMM

[Ramadhan]

In other words, shirk is the sin of being Christian; Christianity as defined by Islam of course.

shirk is ascribing partner(s) to Allah.
A muslim can also commit shirk. In fact these days many muslims do, although it may not be so clear. Many muslims who go to certain graves of dead people who they consider as special to ask for intercessions and blessings, for example, are committing shirk.
Obviously, as a catholic, you are committing shirk by worshiping a man (jesus) as god, as well as a host of other dead people like Mary (p) and other saints.

By the way amigo, can you please answer my question about God who died in the other thread? or there are things in christianity that one should not ask?

[Amigo]

shirk is ascribing partner(s) to Allah.
A muslim can also commit shirk. In fact these days many muslims do, although it may not be so clear. Many muslims who go to certain graves of dead people who they consider as special to ask for intercessions and blessings, for example, are committing shirk.
Obviously, as a catholic, you are committing shirk by worshiping a man (jesus) as god, as well as a host of other dead people like Mary (p) and other saints.

By the way amigo, can you please answer my question about God who died in the other thread? or there are things in christianity that one should not ask?

No, In Christianity you are allowed to ask anything. And whoever asks, will receive an answer, one just have to be sincere, if you are sincere you will continue the conversation, you are the one who halted the conversation, not me.

[Amigo]

I can tell you are not from among 'The People of the Scripture'. What is the source of the authority in anything you say? I assume it is direct revelation to you just like to Saul. If you do not have a documented source for what you say, then you can easily make it up as you go - which seems to me what you are doing. I still think you are a Mason or something else besides what you say.

Truth does not need any support. Documented sources need the support and back up of truth not vice-versa.

[MustafaMc]

Truth does not need any support. Documented sources need the support and back up of truth not vice-versa.

How do you discern Truth from falsehood? Logic tells me that it is more truthful that 1) God is one, indivisible, incomparable, begets not and is not begotten than to say 2) God is one expressed in three independent persons with one person submitting his will to the Other, even though God is One, He says to another person, "This is my son in whom I am well pleased", becoming man and hence comparable to any man who ever walked the earth, being begotten and born of a woman. Is God the Author of confusion? The Christian concept of Trinity is confusing and cannot be logically explained by even the Pope himself. The Islamic concept of Tawhid is not confusing and can be understood and explained by a young child.

[Ramadhan]

No, In Christianity you are allowed to ask anything. And whoever asks, will receive an answer, one just have to be sincere, if you are sincere you will continue the conversation, you are the one who halted the conversation, not me.

Amigo, are you sure you are a christian?
Because jesus taught sincerity and honesty. And there's nothing sincere nor honest about your post above.
I did ask What happened to the universe when God died, and instead of receiving answer from you, in return you asked me few questions about the definitions of God, die, the universe, etc, of which I answered all politely.
And then you just disappeared without giving me the answer.
Everyone can read it here please http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...lide-show.html

So I am asking politely and with sincerity again, would please go back to that thread and answer my question as you have promised me?
Thank you.

[Amigo]

Amigo, are you sure you are a christian?
Because jesus taught sincerity and honesty. And there's nothing sincere nor honest about your post above.
I did ask What happened to the universe when God died, and instead of receiving answer from you, in return you asked me few questions about the definitions of God, die, the universe, etc, of which I answered all politely.
And then you just disappeared without giving me the answer.
Everyone can read it here please http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...lide-show.html

So I am asking politely and with sincerity again, would please go back to that thread and answer my question as you have promised me?
Thank you.

Hi brother, I have just scanned that thread 3 times. I don't see anywhere an answer to the questions in my post # 30, 3rd paragraph. Instead of answering them, you went aside and start intimidating me with this and that. I even followed you on your distracting comments hoping that we were coming back to more serious conversation, but you never come back. Instead you keep telling me that I haven't answered the first question...If you are serious about your question, then you will notice that my questions are serious and seriously relevant to your own question. Answering those questions is my way to sharing the answer with you. As long as they are not answered, you are simply demonstrating your lack on real interest in the answer to your question, and therefore lack of interest in the answer. If you want me to answer you, you have to collaborate. I can use all legitimate ways to answer your questions, including using questions to focus attention to the answer. If you don't want to look there, you are not ready for the answer. Distractions or intimidation don't work...

[brmm]

Amigo ... I am waiting in the queue after brother Ramadhan :popcorn:

BRMM

[Amigo]

How do you discern Truth from falsehood? Logic tells me that it is more truthful that 1) God is one, indivisible, incomparable, begets not and is not begotten than to say 2) God is one expressed in three independent persons with one person submitting his will to the Other, even though God is One, He says to another person, "This is my son in whom I am well pleased", becoming man and hence comparable to any man who ever walked the earth, being begotten and born of a woman. Is God the Author of confusion? The Christian concept of Trinity is confusing and cannot be logically explained by even the Pope himself. The Islamic concept of Tawhid is not confusing and can be understood and explained by a young child.

I discern the truth by considering whether people are alreay consistent with simple facts where they are and truthful about them before they move on to the next things.
I thought we are talking about scripture and truth. I consider your jump to the trinity a distraction and I will not follow you there. If you want to talk about the trinity, open a thread about it or bring it in one that may already exist, and let's hold a conversation in proper context without random evasions and distraction. Consistency is also part of discerning truthfullness.

[Amigo]

Amigo ... I am waiting in the queue after brother Ramadhan :popcorn:

BRMM

Ok, I am coming...I hope you are not looking for violent confrontations though; I don't believe violence is compatible with religious conversation that respect truth. So I hope you did not mean what you expressed in your smilies in the other thread:)

[Amigo]

Hello Amigo, nice to chat with u again, welcome back :)

Any one, under any title or name even if he called himself Muslim, who believes that there is any kind of god beside Allah, he would be considered as a great sinner (committing shirk).
Q 04:48 "Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin"

If the Christian wish to believe in one (1 only) god then they will not be in this category and if they believe in Trinity they will be, unfortunately, withing this category, and thats why we are writing in this forum.

BRMM

Well, as I commented, that's Muslim belief and Muslim belief about Christianity. That's all.
Personnaly one of the first sign I know about the truthfulness of someone, is how they 'get'/understand me. If someone says they are truthful while they are speaking/believing lies about me I know they are false. Simple. I know myself, and I know what I believe about God. You are speaking from books, and theological terms like atonment, etc. How if I never went to school or don't speak English? do you suppose only English speaking people are Christians or that Christianity is founded on any human alphabet of syllables and sounds? God and man are both beyond syllabes when it comes to communication and understanding.

[MustafaMc]

I discern the truth by considering whether people are alreay consistent with simple facts where they are and truthful about them before they move on to the next things.
I thought we are talking about scripture and truth. I consider your jump to the trinity a distraction and I will not follow you there. If you want to talk about the trinity, open a thread about it or bring it in one that may already exist, and let's hold a conversation in proper context without random evasions and distraction. Consistency is also part of discerning truthfullness.

I was still talking about Truth and how you discern what is true and what is false. Since scripture is irrelevant to you, I thought that logic would be useful in your discerning of Truth. I used the Trinity vs Tawhid argument to show that the Islamic position was more logical and therefore more truthful.

The question remains, "What is your standard for discerning Truth from falsehood?"

[Amigo]

I was still talking about Truth and how you discern what is true and what is false. Since scripture is irrelevant to you, I thought that logic would be useful in your discerning of Truth. I used the Trinity vs Tawhid argument to show that the Islamic position was more logical and therefore more truthful.

The question remains, "What is your standard for discerning Truth from falsehood?"

The standard can be described in many ways. Human words are limited.
For now, not adding or substracting anything from the truth already known and evident and staying consistent, that's the standard.
Falsehood consist of adding or substracting about the truth.
Discernment consists in being sincere, honest, truthful, and struggling to stay on this path.
More truth are found on the path of truth, not away from it. So discernment is like watching and waiting, like a driver who look at signs as he goes and wait until he gets where he need.
In matters of truth, we don't know the end, we only know that we can reach it by staying on the right path: truthfullness, honesty, sincerity.
This is how God guide people and this is my standard of discerning right guidance. I don't follow anyone who approuve/practice any falsehood.

[Tyrion]

The standard can be described in many ways. Human words are limited.
For now, not adding or substracting anything from the truth already known and evident and staying consistent, that's the standard.
Falsehood consist of adding or substracting about the truth.
Discernment consists in being sincere, honest, truthful, and struggling to stay on this path.
More truth are found on the path of truth, not away from it. So discernment is like watching and waiting, like a driver who look at signs as he goes and wait until he gets where he need.
In matters of truth, we don't know the end, we only know that we can reach it by staying on the right path: truthfullness, honesty, sincerity.
This is how God guide people and this is my standard of discerning right guidance. I don't follow anyone who approuve/practice any falsehood.

Sorry, I had to... Did anybody else get what he was trying to say? Amigo, you keep talking about truth, but what exactly IS truth to you? You don't seem to be answering anything... Or maybe I'm just not getting it?

[Ramadhan]

Hi brother, I have just scanned that thread 3 times. I don't see anywhere an answer to the questions in my post # 30, 3rd paragraph. Instead of answering them, you went aside and start intimidating me with this and that. I even followed you on your distracting comments hoping that we were coming back to more serious conversation, but you never come back. Instead you keep telling me that I haven't answered the first question...If you are serious about your question, then you will notice that my questions are serious and seriously relevant to your own question. Answering those questions is my way to sharing the answer with you. As long as they are not answered, you are simply demonstrating your lack on real interest in the answer to your question, and therefore lack of interest in the answer. If you want me to answer you, you have to collaborate. I can use all legitimate ways to answer your questions, including using questions to focus attention to the answer.

Amigo, I asked ONE simple question about concept of God in christianity, that is: what happened when God died.

Instead of answering me and giving explanations you started to ask me questions. Now you said my answer to your questions is conditions whether I can receive the answer. So, does this mean your answer depends on my definitions and does this mean that your answer changes depending on the answers given to your questions?
Does this mean the answer of the question a Hindu different than the answer given to me?
Or that the answer to a buddhist different than the answer of the question to am agnostic?
what happened if someone cannot answer your questions, does this mean they have no right to ask their question or not ready to receive the answer?
Does this mean that the truth in christianity changes and mutable?
In Islam we believe that the truth does not change and immutable.

I asked you who ran the universe when God died.
and instead of starting to explain your answer, you asked me some questions:
what is death? which I answered by giving you definition from dictionary
what the universe? ditto as above
what is god? which you said yo dont need me to answer because you said I would give you definition from dictionary again, which is correct
and then you asked me to look for answers in the Qur'an. Well, the Qur'an says that God does not and never die, so that's why I asked you the question: I am interested to understand the consequences for the creation caused by the death of God.

So will you now go back to this thread and answer my question please because I don't want to derail this forgiveness and atonement thread.?
You owed it to me because you promised me.

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...de-show-5.html

Can you please go back there and continue with the conversation?
What would Jesus do? Do you think he would renege on his promise and not give answer to anyone who seek it?

If you don't want to look there, you are not ready for the answer.

so the truth of christianity cannot be given to anyone who ask for it, that there conditions that must be fulfilled by the person who ask question, is that it?

In Islam, anyone can ask any question and receive answer without having to fulfill any arbitrary conditions.

[brmm]

Personnaly one of the first sign I know about the truthfulness of someone, is how they 'get'/understand me.

So if any one can't understand you will be a liar ?
According to you, all the teachers in the world who can not explain the materials to their students in an easy way and their students can't understand them are liars. This is only one example, then all the word will be liars.

I think you never answered any question even though you have wrote a lot.
You did not put comments on any video or material I have sent.

My words, are not God's words or prophet Mohammed's words, the same for you, your words are not God's words or prophet Jesus words, so if you need to debate and defend your belief, YOU ARE MOST WELCOME AND WE WOULD LIKE A LOT TO HEAR FROM YOU, just be sure to submit your quotes with verses from the Bible as evidences otherwise you can fill books of your words without value.

If you need to answer my questions, please come with verses from the Bible or say I do not have it in a clear way.

If you need to criticized Islam also do the same, come with verses from the Holy Quran or the prophet words and we will defend our belief.
In Islam blue can not be red by faith, and God's words are the law in this world.

Most probably, I have finished with you, because < I think > you will never answer any question and you will never submit verses from the Bible.

And Inshallah Allah will open your heart for the truth, because our duties as Muslims is to give direction guidance to our brothers in humanity.

BRMM

[MustafaMc]

Well, as I commented, that's Muslim belief and Muslim belief about Christianity. That's all.

I have not read anywhere what your beliefs are. You say that you are a Christian, but I have not read a single word you have written that is consistent with what I know about either Protestant or Catholic Christianity.

Personnaly one of the first sign I know about the truthfulness of someone, is how they 'get'/understand me. If someone says they are truthful while they are speaking/believing lies about me I know they are false. Simple. I know myself, and I know what I believe about God.

So if someone does not 'get' you then they are dishonest? I can't see how a lack of understanding can be shown to be equivalent with dishonesty.

You are speaking from books, and theological terms like atonment, etc. How if I never went to school or don't speak English? do you suppose only English speaking people are Christians or that Christianity is founded on any human alphabet of syllables and sounds? God and man are both beyond syllabes when it comes to communication and understanding.

No, I absolutely disagree with you here. This forum is written in English as a common language even though some people have learned English as a second language and may not understand the meaning of all words as well as others. However, there are online dictionaries available to look up words that are not well understood. There is no other means of communication of concepts and ideas like the subtle difference between 'atonement' and 'forgiveness'. Using your logic, "If you don't get what I am trying to say, then you are being dishonest." I can understand why you would want to be dishonest because to admit the truth in what I have written destroys the concept of Jesus needing to die on the cross as the only possible means for redemption from sin. Your dancing around and avoiding any and all questions put forward to you demonstrate without doubt that you are a dishonest person and that you do not want to have an honest two-way conversation.

I agree with what Akhi brmm wrote.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Flame;

Yes, isn't it funny? If the sacrifice that Jesus supposedly made on the cross was supposed to pay for all our sins, why why why do Christians still ask the Lord to forgive them in the Lord's prayer?!

When you take a few words out of context they probably wont make sense

Our Father, which art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
in earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.

If we ask for forgiveness, then we also have to forgive those who sin against us, we will be judged in the way that we judge others. I have family and friends of many faiths, and no faith, I pray and hope that God can grant them eternal salvation, even if they never become a Christian.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

[MustafaMc]

...
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive them that trespass against us.
...

If we ask for forgiveness, then we also have to forgive those who sin against us, we will be judged in the way that we judge others.

Peace, Eric H. Your comments are consistent with Christian #2 in this post http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1443183 I agree that it would be hypocritical to ask God for forgiveness of our sins and to refuse forgiveness to others who offend or injure us.

[al yunan]

If we ask for forgiveness, then we also have to forgive those who sin against us, we will be judged in the way that we judge others. I have family and friends of many faiths, and no faith, I pray and hope that God can grant them eternal salvation, even if they never become a Christian. In the spirit of praying for justice for all people Eric

Salam brother Eric,

You truly have a big heart.
I wish your condition was contagious and that you travelled.

Masalam

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc; thanks for your reply.

If there were no law, then people would not be guilty of sin, if I could just explain that a little further.

The only command that the prophet Adam was given, was not to eat from the tree of knowledge, there were no other laws between the time of Adam and Moses. When Cain killed Abel, he was not breaking any law, because there were no laws against killing until the time of Moses. Anyone who killed after Moses, was then made guilty of killing, because God had given the command not to kill.

Jesus came and still said that every letter of the law should still be fulfilled, but Jesus commanded us to do something greater than could be achieved through the law alone.


[B]Matthew 22:35-39
35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’


If we could understand and live by these two commandments, we would not need any other instructions. These commandments ask us to go that extra mile and help others. I want to sit at home and watch tv, I am not harming anyone, I have not broken any law. But if any of my neighbours need some help I should really be out helping them, how can you write laws to make people love others.

I guess people were not very good at following the greatest commandments over time, and God reinforced the commandments of Judaism and the Old Testament, by giving mankind Islam.

Jesus said all the law, and the prophets hang and depend on the greatest commandments, I believe these commands are the most profound words written anywhere.

In the spirit of searching for God’s just laws.

Eric

[Ramadhan]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc; thanks for your reply. If there were no law, then people would not be guilty of sin, if I could just explain that a little further. The only command that the prophet Adam was given, was not to eat from the tree of knowledge, there were no other laws between the time of Adam and Moses. When Cain killed Abel, he was not breaking any law, because there were no laws against killing until the time of Moses. Anyone who killed after Moses, was then made guilty of killing, because God had given the command not to kill. Jesus came and still said that every letter of the law should still be fulfilled, but Jesus commanded us to do something greater than could be achieved through the law alone. [B]Matthew 22:35-39 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ If we could understand and live by these two commandments, we would not need any other instructions. These commandments ask us to go that extra mile and help others. I want to sit at home and watch tv, I am not harming anyone, I have not broken any law. But if any of my neighbours need some help I should really be out helping them, how can you write laws to make people love others. I guess people were not very good at following the greatest commandments over time, and God reinforced the commandments of Judaism and the Old Testament, by giving mankind Islam. Jesus said all the law, and the prophets hang and depend on the greatest commandments, I believe these commands are the most profound words written anywhere. In the spirit of searching for God’s just laws. Eric

Salam Eric,

I think I understand what you wrote above about God's commandments, what I don't understand is, how it explains the forgiveness vs. atonement as the topic of this thread?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Ramadhan;

Salam Eric,

I think I understand what you wrote above about God's commandments, what I don't understand is, how it explains the forgiveness vs. atonement as the topic of this thread?

All the law and the prophets hang and depend on the greatest commandments, and I wonder if the forgiveness of sins hangs and depends on the greatest commandments also.

In any situation our greatest response should be to love God and to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. If we respond in any other way then we are not living by what is greatest. For Example, if I punched you on the nose, your greatest response to me would be to love me as you love yourself, but first you would need to forgive me so that you might continue to love me as yourself.

If you were a Christian, and you punched me back, then you would not be responding in a greatest way, that is our challenge as a Christian, mostly we fail.

Then we look to Jesus in the Bible, and on the cross he said forgive them Father for they know not what they do. Jesus forgave the people who condemned him unjustly, he forgave those who scourged him and nailed him to the cross.

Did Jesus forgive in order that he should continue to do what is greatest, to love all our neighbours as we love ourselves, even to forgive those who harmed him?

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[MustafaMc]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc; thanks for your reply.

If there were no law, then people would not be guilty of sin, if I could just explain that a little further.

The only command that the prophet Adam was given, was not to eat from the tree of knowledge, there were no other laws between the time of Adam and Moses. When Cain killed Abel, he was not breaking any law, because there were no laws against killing until the time of Moses. Anyone who killed after Moses, was then made guilty of killing, because God had given the command not to kill.

Peace, Eric, it is nice to hear from you. I am not sure that I agree with the idea there is no sin without law. God said to Cain in Genesis 4:7 "... And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door..." Apart from the law we humans have an innate sense of right and wrong and when we chose to do wrong, we commit sin.

Jesus came and still said that every letter of the law should still be fulfilled, but Jesus commanded us to do something greater than could be achieved through the law alone.


[B]Matthew 22:35-39
35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’


If we could understand and live by these two commandments, we would not need any other instructions. These commandments ask us to go that extra mile and help others. I want to sit at home and watch tv, I am not harming anyone, I have not broken any law. But if any of my neighbours need some help I should really be out helping them, how can you write laws to make people love others.

I agree that these are indeed great commandments - in general terms. The devil-is-in-the-details though in how one goes about doing so. The Quran tells us how to love Allah (swt) in 3:31 Say: "If you love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." According to Islam, our following of Prophet Muhammad (saaws) in how we live our lives is a demonstration of our love for Allah (swt).

I guess people were not very good at following the greatest commandments over time, and God reinforced the commandments of Judaism and the Old Testament, by giving mankind Islam.

There may be something true within that in that generally normal people don't know how to love the Divine Being with all their soul and mind and rare indeed is the person who loves another human as he loves himself. Islam provides a set of guidelines in how to worship our Creator and to live our lives.

Jesus said all the law, and the prophets hang and depend on the greatest commandments, I believe these commands are the most profound words written anywhere.

In the spirit of searching for God’s just laws.

Eric

I agree that those are great commandments, but I also agree with my Brother in Islam in not seeing how this pertains to obtaining redemption for our commission of sin as imperfect human beings do. Can God forgive those transgressions with only repentance or is an atonement required to cancel the debt of sin only through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross?

[Ramadhan]

Eric, I understand the concept of forgiveness, however I still don't understand how your explanation relates to the blood atonement of God and for God?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;

]Peace, Eric, it is nice to hear from you. I am not sure that I agree with the idea there is no sin without law. God said to Cain in Genesis 4:7 "... And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door..." Apart from the law we humans have an innate sense of right and wrong and when we chose to do wrong, we commit sin.

When Adam ate from the tree, everyone from then on was given the knowledge of good and evil, another word for evil is sin. Mankind was given choices, God left mankind to work out for themselves what they should and should not do with this knowledge. God had not said you must do all these good things, and you must never do all these bad things. When Cain killed his brother he sinned, but there was no law to make him guilty.

After Moses, anyone who killed broke a law, and disobeyed God, the law makes them guilty.

It is within God’s power to say your sins are forgiven, and they would be forgiven, so why would Jesus have to die, it does not seem to be for the benefit of God, therefore it must be for my benefit in some way.

If Jesus only went through life doing good, and helping people, he should have every right to be angry against the people who condemned and tortured him, instead he forgave them. This is a profound role model for me, and Jesus gave us a new commandment shortly before he died. Love one another as I have loved you, by this all men will know that you are my disciples.

Scriptures are given to challenge and change us, I am not a scholar in any way, but I am just trying to say in my own words how the death and resurrection affects me.

In the spirit of praying for salvation for all people

Eric

[MustafaMc]

If Jesus only went through life doing good, and helping people, he should have every right to be angry against the people who condemned and tortured him, instead he forgave them. This is a profound role model for me, and Jesus gave us a new commandment shortly before he died. Love one another as I have loved you, by this all men will know that you are my disciples.

Eric, I do not disagree with you as I understand that you are basically saying, "Oh, God forgive me of my sins as I also forgive those who unjustly injure and offend me." I agree that it does not seem just to plead for forgiveness and then turn around and to refuse to forgive those around us. I disagree though that apart from the law there is no sin because that implies Christians who have no law are incapable of sinning. What I hear from you is 'forgiveness of sin' but not the 'atonement through the blood of Jesus' that is typical from Christians I know.

My perspective is that human beings are imperfect creatures who have an incliniation for self-preservation and each person doing what is best for himself. It takes a higher level of spiritual awareness and love to give your neighbor your meager piece of bread while you yourself are incredibly hungry. What comes to my mind is the book, "Man's Search for Meaning" by Victor Frankl. Forgiving our fellow man is a great concept, but we must admit it is extremely difficult to forgive the man who raped and killed your 16 year old daughter, the prison guard who beat you and applied live electrical wires to your private parts, or the wife who committed adultery with your best friend. With that said, I believe that God can forgive all of those things, but justice allows for retribution to be taken from the one injured on Judgement Day - again and Allah (swt) knows best.

[Pygoscelis]

Eric, this is the paradox of Jesus that I see.

On the one hand, he says to love your neighbour, be good to others, turn the other cheek (which as you noted, he backs up with his actions), etc. He presents himself at the sermon on the mount and elsewhere as an admirable role model that we can all learn something from, Chrsitian or not.

On the other hand, he represents vicarious redemption (scapegoatism). He embodies the idea that we all will go to hell and need to be "saved", and the idea that somebody else's suffering can pay for our own wrongdoing. He also reiterates that the Old Testament God (a monster) is to be followed.

If Christianity consisted of nothing but the sermon on the mount and some of Jesus' other teachings, I'd truly find it an admirable religion and may even convert. But with that comes the ugly stuff, so I stay far far away.

PS - Why do Christians so rarely mention the sermon on the mount but so often mention the 10 commandments? I could never understand that.

[brmm]

God had not said you must do all these good things, and you must never do all these bad things. When Cain killed his brother he sinned, but there was no law to make him guilty.

After Moses, anyone who killed broke a law, and disobeyed God, the law makes them guilty.

Eric

Hello Eric,
I am sorry to tell you that < I strongly disagree 100%>.
This is a very dangerous and horrible thing to say.
Please submit with proofs, because it should be God who said so.

If you mean by the law the Torah or the Law of God, in any case, the law of God is exist as long as God sexists. God can not be unfair before Moses and fair after Moses. This idea contradicts the attribute of God, so it is not even a discussable.

Moses was not the first prophet from God.
The Torah was not the first book book from God.
God have punished nations before Moses because of their sins when they did not listen to their prophets.

If we need to go by your idea, that would make our world very bad, because the man would be able to enjoy his mother, or kill his father and eat his children for lunch. We would be worse than the worse animals.

Do you think God wanted us to be like this ?

BRMM

[Who Am I?]

Jesus (pbuh) was a hippie communist.

Hippie = love everyone

Communist = give everything to the poor

So does that mean we should all be hippies and Communists too?

[brmm]

Hi Pygoscelis, pls can I ask u a question?
R u atheist
1. because you believe that there is no God, or,
2. because you want to be so but you know that there is God, or,
3. because you know that there is God but so far you do not like Him, or,
4. because you are searching for your God for now, or,
5. any other reason ?

BRMM

[Ramadhan]

Jesus (pbuh) was a hippie communist. Hippie = love everyone Communist = give everything to the poor So does that mean we should all be hippies and Communists too?

Jesus certainly did not love everyone. Remember how he kicked the tables of the traders in the temple?
That, and among other incidents show that Jesus did not love everyone.

Also, as muslims we give so much respect to Jesus (pbuh), one of Allah's mightiest messegers. We don't give him nicknames, let alone "hippie communist" astaghfirullah.
Only non-muslims would debase prophets of God.

[Who Am I?]

Jesus certainly did not love everyone. Remember how he kicked the tables of the traders in the temple?
That, and among other incidents show that Jesus did not love everyone.

Also, as muslims we give so much respect to Jesus (pbuh), one of Allah's mightiest messegers. We don't give him nicknames, let alone "hippie communist" astaghfirullah.
Only non-muslims would debase prophets of God.

Ah, I forgot about the kicking of tables part.

That was the old me talking. May Allah forgive me for my harsh words. I still have a lot to learn, inshallah.

[Ramadhan]

PS - Why do Christians so rarely mention the sermon on the mount but so often mention the 10 commandments? I could never understand that.

I don't know about the sermon but I'll answer the commandments part. Jesus (pbuh) followed the message of Moses (pbuh) and he never abrogated Mosaic laws and in fact, on record, he said that he didn't come to abolish the mosaic laws. And in many occasion, he kept commanding his followers NOT to break any of the commandments given to Moses (pbuh). So the commandments (which actually amount to a lot more than ten) are paramount.

[brmm]

Jesus (pbuh) was a hippie communist.

Hippie = love everyone

Communist = give everything to the poor

So does that mean we should all be hippies and Communists too?

“34*Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35*For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36*And a man's enemies shall be they of his own household” Matt 10:34-36

“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me” Luke 19:27

[Who Am I?]

“34*Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35*For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36*And a man's enemies shall be they of his own household” Matt 10:34-36

“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me” Luke 19:27

I was hasty in those words, I admit. That was the old me talking. I should know better than that now. :embarrass

[Impey]

I don't know about the sermon but I'll answer the commandments part. Jesus (pbuh) followed the message of Moses (pbuh) and he never abrogated Mosaic laws and in fact, on record, he said that he didn't come to abolish the mosaic laws. And in many occasion, he kept commanding his followers NOT to break any of the commandments given to Moses (pbuh). So the commandments (which actually amount to a lot more than ten) are paramount.

I have a friend who has a Jewish studies degree from a British University and in a faith and science forum talks he said there are 613 commands in the Torah though many are now impossible or unnecessary to keep. For example, the temple in Jerusalem no longer exits so any law about it cannot be kept, another example he gave was that you were supposed to show yourself to the priest if you had a skin disease, again no one would think that necessary to keep now. Surely, there must be things in Islam, laws that are now obsolete?

I am rather surprised at Pygoscelis' remarks as I think in the Sermon on the Mount have entered the English language and are typically use all the time in everyday speech. However, one could and perhaps should is go beyond the commands and that is the essence I am told of the teachings of Jesus (same forum as above). So we have a saying such as if someone asks for your shirt give him your coat also. in other words this seems to mean (to me) the law is a starting point not an end point.

[Amigo]

So if someone does not 'get' you then they are dishonest? I can't see how a lack of understanding can be shown to be equivalent with dishonesty

You guys have an amazing ability to jump out of the line of conversation to pretend something else is going on. This is also dishonesty.
You know well, the 'get me' refers to 'my belief' which you are pretending to know therefore pretending to 'get' me.

I try not to pretend to know what people actually believe. For this I ask questions to make sure. My conversation with Ramadhan is an example.
You can believe whatever you want about me. What you believe about me does not affect my real faith in the least. It only feed your assumptions more and more and you will keep addressing fiction instead of reality.

Dictionaries are about 'truth', faith/belief is also about truth, but how many of you learn their faith from dictionaries. If faith came from dictionaries, people would be believing the same thing. Therefore realize that the truth we are talking about is not the truth from the dictionaries alone!!!! Or perhaps faith for you guys is not a matter of truth?

[Tyrion]

Or perhaps faith for you guys is not a matter of truth?

The difference between our faith and yours is that ours is based on reason and evidence, while yours seems to be blind faith which is based on nothing.

As far as I can tell, you haven't really said anything in this thread... Or perhaps I'm just having trouble understanding you... Either way, I want to ask you a very basic question, so that we can better understand what exactly you're trying to say and where you're coming from.. (and also because I'm curious..) It's a basic question, and I hope you can provide us with a clear response: What is it that you believe, and why do you believe it? In other words, I want to know the answer to the question MustafaMc asked you on the previous page... (Which you responded to, but didn't really answer)

[Amigo]

The difference between our faith and yours is that ours is based on reason and evidence, while yours seems to be blind faith which is based on nothing.

As far as I can tell, you haven't really said anything in this thread... Or perhaps I'm just having trouble understanding you... Either way, I want to ask you a very basic question, so that we can better understand what exactly you're trying to say and where you're coming from.. (and also because I'm curious..) It's a basic question, and I hope you can provide us with a clear response: What is it that you believe, and why do you believe it? In other words, I want to know the answer to the question MustafaMc asked you on the previous page... (Which you responded to, but didn't really answer)

I believe
What: in True Life Giving Love.
Why: because it is holy and all good.

[Pygoscelis]

Hi Pygoscelis, pls can I ask u a question?
R u atheist
1. because you believe that there is no God, or,
2. because you want to be so but you know that there is God, or,
3. because you know that there is God but so far you do not like Him, or,
4. because you are searching for your God for now, or,
5. any other reason ?

BRMM

1.

2 or 3 or 4 would make me not an atheist.

Actually, not so much 1 as 1 (a): I have no belief that there is a God. I see no more reason to believe that God exists than that any number of other imaginary things exist like big foot or the loch ness monster. These entities MAY exist. I don't discount them completely. But I see no reason to believe they do exist.

Now that said, I am still free to evaluate claims about Gods that are made, just as I am free to evaluate the character or morality of any other fictional matter, like Robin Hood or the stories of Hercules. And when people believe and endorse these religions I do feel that it says a lot about them. If somebody worshiped a God that demands something imoral of them for example (such as mutilating a child's genetalia or killing a child or doing genocide on a neighbouring tribe etc), instead of rebelling against such a God, that would say something about them.

Hope that answers your question adequately :)

[Pygoscelis]

I am rather surprised at Pygoscelis' remarks as I think in the Sermon on the Mount have entered the English language and are typically use all the time in everyday speech. However, one could and perhaps should is go beyond the commands and that is the essence I am told of the teachings of Jesus (same forum as above). So we have a saying such as if someone asks for your shirt give him your coat also. in other words this seems to mean (to me) the law is a starting point not an end point.

We have Christians fighting to have the 10 commandments put in courthouse lobbies (that the same people usually can't list the 10 commandments is another matter - and rather hillarious if you ask me). But I don't think your typical such Christian could tell you much, if anything, about what was said by Jesus in the sermon on the mount or that pushes for it to be written somewhere official etc in our government. Maybe because it isn't a convenient 10 item list. I guess that's probably it. I have actually met some Christians who have not even heard of the sermon on the mount, hard to believe I know, but I have.

[Ramadhan]

I have a friend who has a Jewish studies degree from a British University and in a faith and science forum talks he said there are 613 commands in the Torah though many are now impossible or unnecessary to keep. For example, the temple in Jerusalem no longer exits so any law about it cannot be kept, another example he gave was that you were supposed to show yourself to the priest if you had a skin disease, again no one would think that necessary to keep now. Surely, there must be things in Islam, laws that are now obsolete?

If it is in the Qur'an, it is never obsolete, because the Qur'an is for all mankind till the end of time.

[Who Am I?]

We have Christians fighting to have the 10 commandments put in courthouse lobbies (that the same people usually can't list the 10 commandments is another matter - and rather hillarious if you ask me). But I don't think your typical such Christian could tell you much, if anything, about what was said by Jesus in the sermon on the mount or that pushes for it to be written somewhere official etc in our government. Maybe because it isn't a convenient 10 item list. I guess that's probably it. I have actually met some Christians who have not even heard of the sermon on the mount, hard to believe I know, but I have.

From my Christian past, the Sermon on the Mount is also known as the Beatitudes. While it is not an official code like the 10 Commandments, it's considered a set of "unofficial" rules for Christians to live by.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatitudes

[Pygoscelis]

From my Christian past, the Sermon on the Mount is also known as the Beatitudes. While it is not an official code like the 10 Commandments, it's considered a set of "unofficial" rules for Christians to live by.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatitudes

But given that it is the words of Christ himself, shouldn't it carry even more weight than the 10 commandments, an old jewish carryover to the Christian religion? The focus just seems backwards to me.

[Who Am I?]

But given that it is the words of Christ himself, shouldn't it carry even more weight than the 10 commandments, an old jewish carryover to the Christian religion? The focus just seems backwards to me.

I don't know the answer to that one. I only know what I was told when I went to Christian schools.

[Amigo]

From my Christian past, the Sermon on the Mount is also known as the Beatitudes. While it is not an official code like the 10 Commandments, it's considered a set of "unofficial" rules for Christians to live by.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatitudes

Unofficial? really? how so?

[Amigo]

But given that it is the words of Christ himself, shouldn't it carry even more weight than the 10 commandments, an old jewish carryover to the Christian religion? The focus just seems backwards to me.

I tell:
- a jew by a life according to Deuteronomical law
- a muslim by a life according to Sharia law
- a christian by a life according to the Sermon of the Mount

The beatitudes are what distinguish a christian from other faiths in day to day life relationships. Reading it alone give you a clear distinction between christian lifestyle and other religious traditions. In the sermon of the mount, Jesus restores the standard lost by concessions in deuteromical laws and then reveals the true fruits of obedience to the 10 commendments and their purpose: To open man to the fullness of life.

The Sermon on the Mount is the standard of Christian (well, Catholic) interpretation of the 10 Commandments. They are the reason things like vengeance, divorce, contraception, polygamy, death penalty, torture, etc are considered sins in the Catechism and are not practiced by serious and faithful Christians.

[Pygoscelis]

The sermon on the mount addressed contraception?

[Ramadhan]

I believe What: in True Life Giving Love. Why: because it is holy and all good.

How did you believe that true life giving love?
and how did you find that true life is holy and all good?

[Who Am I?]

Unofficial? really? how so?

Well when I was in school, we were taught the 10 Commandments first and later the Beattitudes. That's why I say the Beattitudes are secondary to the 10 Commandments.

Your experience may differ...

[al yunan]

The Sermon on the Mount is the standard of Christian (well, Catholic) interpretation of the 10 Commandments. They are the reason things like vengeance, divorce, contraception, polygamy, death penalty, torture, etc are considered sins in the Catechism and are not practiced by serious and faithful Christians.

Which actual verse from the sermon on the Mount did the R.C church interpret to mean "no matter how many children's lives one destroys it's okay for to save pedophile priests from man's law"

[Amigo]

How did you believe that true life giving love?

Listening and applying teachings of Fathers (holy men) and imitating holy lives.

and how did you find that true life is holy and all good?

Following the path of sincerity and honesty

[Amigo]

The sermon on the mount addressed contraception?

yes, several times, whenever it addresses honesty, hypocrisy, or sexuality.

[Ramadhan]

Listening and applying teachings of Fathers (holy men) and imitating holy lives.

who are these fathers?
What makes them holy?
and how do you know they are holy?

Following the path of sincerity and honesty

What is the path of sincerity and honesty?
Sorry for me being stupid, I hope you don't mind me asking questions.

[MustafaMc]

Listening and applying teachings of Fathers (holy men) and imitating holy lives.

Do these same Fathers also grant forgiveness from sin as in "Father forgive me for I have sinned, it has been 2 weeks since my last Confession."? How does the penance specified by the priest like "Say three Hail Marys and sin no more" have to do with Jesus' sacrifice on the cross"?

[Amigo]

who are these fathers?

All the ancestors who have thought me how to worship: how to be thankfull, how to admit sin, how to repent, how to do penance, how to offer thanksgiving, how to practice virtue and hate vice, how to live in the truth and avoid falsehood, how to hallow God's holy name:

What makes them holy?

God is Holy, He makes anyone who wants holy. He sanctifies who wants to be sanctified.

and how do you know they are holy?

They love the truth with their whole heart, believe in it without wavering, and have zero tolerance of falsehood. When they sin they give example of contrition and repentance, they don't excuse sin or justify lying or any other corruption.

What is the path of sincerity and honesty?

love of truth and transparency. single mind, single heart. Love of Integrity: Worship of ONE God.

[Amigo]

Do these same Fathers also grant forgiveness from sin as in "Father forgive me for I have sinned, it has been 2 weeks since my last Confession."? How does the penance specified by the priest like "Say three Hail Marys and sin no more" have to do with Jesus' sacrifice on the cross"?

What does the bank clerk and your ID got to do with the inheritance your ancestors left for you?
Or what does your DNA got to do with your ancestors? are you sure you are you? or you are your ancestors? or????

[MustafaMc]

What does the bank clerk and your ID got to do with the inheritance your ancestors left for you?

My ID serves to let the clerk know that I am the person to whom the inheritance belongs and that thereby it is legal to give me the money. Is Jesus' blood your passport to receiving forgiveness? Wa that the relevance you were getting at?

Or what does your DNA got to do with your ancestors? are you sure you are you? or you are your ancestors? or????

My DNA defines certain aspects of my unique person. It is the reason why I am white with freckles and not black or olive skinned. My physical body is an aspect of me, but it is not the totality of me. The true essence of my being is the comprehensive package of beliefs, personality, deeds, words spoken, thoughts, cultural heritage, etc. These later things are most probably not due to my DNA that I received from my unique set of ancestors. My brother and I share identically the same set of ancestors, but we are very different individuals. He is a Christian and I am a Muslim. We each have accumulated our own set of sins and misdeeds, but we look for redemption from different means.

[Ramadhan]

All the ancestors who have thought me how to worship:

ancestors? whose ancestors? so they are dead already? How did they communicate with and teach you when they are already dead?

God is Holy, He makes anyone who wants holy. He sanctifies who wants to be sanctified

How do you know that God made those men holy?
What does sanctified mean?

They love the truth with their whole heart, believe in it without wavering, and have zero tolerance of falsehood. When they sin they give example of contrition and repentance, they don't excuse sin or justify lying or any other corruption.

Who are these people? are they priests? or popes?
because I've heard and read many horror stories about priests and popes which contradict what you wrote above.

love of truth and transparency. single mind, single heart. Love of Integrity:

Then you must love Islam for Islam is the truth and transparency.
What does single heart and single mind mean?

Worship of ONE God.

Don't christians worship a 3 persons God?
Is that integrity?

[Amigo]

ancestors? whose ancestors? so they are dead already? How did they communicate with and teach you when they are already dead?

Anyone who is in God is alive though he may be dead to this world. For God is ever alive.

How do you know that God made those men holy? What does sanctified mean?

They have loved each other and all men including their ennemies to the end.
They have when necessary chosen death rather than dishonesty, malice, and all other ways they were pushed by the world to betray life, love, and truth.
They were/are strong in love. They would rather die than kill to preserve their temporal lives. They never killed, and if they did, they repented of it in no ambigous manner. They promoted truth and truth only, never justifying any lie or falsehood. Full faith in the truth is true faith to me. It is sanctifying faith.
'Sanctified' means empowered to love to the end no matter what. To keep the commandments, to respect the holy name of God, human life and dignity, and creation always. Empowerment to endure in the truth and resist all falsehood.

Who are these people? are they priests? or popes? because I've heard and read many horror stories about priests and popes which contradict what you wrote above.

These people are people who have lived and died in peace with God. Even when they committed horrors, they did not try to justify them, but have repented of them and made peace with God. See Psalm 51 for an example of repentance. They are people from all categories including priests and popes. Holiness does not shine from horrible lives, but from righteous lives, from virtue, true repentance, love of all men.

What does single heart and single mind mean?

It means no contradiction of conflict in heart or mind or both. Moreover, true faith comes from them when they speak from one heart and with one mind. The Church is one as God is one.

Don't christians worship a 3 persons God? Is that integrity?

By three persons you mean: Father, Son, Holy Spirit ?
If yes, how is that not integrity?

[Amigo]

My ID serves to let the clerk know that I am the person to whom the inheritance belongs and that thereby it is legal to give me the money. Is Jesus' blood your passport to receiving forgiveness?

To receive forgiveness, you must present the real/true sins. There is corresponding real mercy to every real sin.
Jesus's blood is the guarantee of new life (eternal life in the eternal world), just us your blood is the guarantee of your life now in this world.

Wa that the relevance you were getting at?

God is real, and works with real means.

My DNA defines certain aspects of my unique person. It is the reason why I am white with freckles and not black or olive skinned. My physical body is an aspect of me, but it is not the totality of me. The true essence of my being is the comprehensive package of beliefs, personality, deeds, words spoken, thoughts, cultural heritage, etc. These later things are most probably not due to my DNA that I received from my unique set of ancestors. My brother and I share identically the same set of ancestors, but we are very different individuals. He is a Christian and I am a Muslim. We each have accumulated our own set of sins and misdeeds, but we look for redemption from different means.

In other words, your inheritance is already there. All you do is choose how to deal with it.

[Ramadhan]

Anyone who is in God is alive though he may be dead to this world. For God is ever alive.

I see. So these ancestors of yours who are dead but alive taught you christianity. How did you communicate with those dead and yet alive people?

They have loved each other and all men including their ennemies to the end. They have when necessary chosen death rather than dishonesty, malice, and all other ways they were pushed by the world to betray life, love, and truth. They were/are strong in love. They would rather die than kill to preserve their temporal lives. They never killed, and if they did, they repented of it in no ambigous manner. They promoted truth and truth only, never justifying any lie or falsehood. Full faith in the truth is true faith to me. It is sanctifying faith. 'Sanctified' means empowered to love to the end no matter what. To keep the commandments, to respect the holy name of God, human life and dignity, and creation always. Empowerment to endure in the truth and resist all falsehood.

Can you name those people?

These people are people who have lived and died in peace with God. Even when they committed horrors, they did not try to justify them, but have repented of them and made peace with God. See Psalm 51 for an example of repentance. They are people from all categories including priests and popes. Holiness does not shine from horrible lives, but from righteous lives, from virtue, true repentance, love of all men.

I think I'm getting closer now. So those people are still holy even though they raped little boys, am I right? That's because they live and die with God.

It means no contradiction of conflict in heart or mind or both. Moreover, true faith comes from them when they speak from one heart and with one mind. The Church is one as God is one.

So every church is one? Which church are we talking about? Can you please be more specific?

By three persons you mean: Father, Son, Holy Spirit ? If yes, how is that not integrity?

Well if God is divisible, then it's not integrity.

[MustafaMc]

To receive forgiveness, you must present the real/true sins. There is corresponding real mercy to every real sin.
Jesus's blood is the guarantee of new life (eternal life in the eternal world), just us your blood is the guarantee of your life now in this world.

I assume "present the real/true sins" means to confess them. I can appreciate that as the first step in repentance is the acknowledgment of the sin, then we feel regret, ask God for forgiveness, offer a penance to offset the wrong and intend to not repeat the sin. So in your belief Jesus' blood guarantees you won't be held accountable for your past, present, or future sins. However, the blood running through my veins does not guarantee my human life in any way whatsoever. Five minutes underwater would most certainly lead to my death.

[Amigo]

I see. So these ancestors of yours who are dead but alive taught you christianity. How did you communicate with those dead and yet alive people?

The people of God are alive in God and are in communion with each other. This means they can communicate through the Holy Spirit of God. Death has been conquered and is no longer a barrier between them. Moreover some of the Fathers are still in this world. I have named some here already, I will not be naming anymore if it is for your mocking/snaring pleasure.

Well if God is divisible, then it's not integrity.

There is no division where there is love. God is love.
It is those who don't love who are divided.
No love = divisions
Love = integrity

[Amigo]

I assume "present the real/true sins" means to confess them. I can appreciate that as the first step in repentance is the acknowledgment of the sin, then we feel regret, ask God for forgiveness, offer a penance to offset the wrong and intend to not repeat the sin. So in your belief Jesus' blood guarantees you won't be held accountable for your past, present, or future sins. However, the blood running through my veins does not guarantee my human life in any way whatsoever. Five minutes underwater would most certainly lead to my death.

Yeah, few minutes under water will stop your heart from beating, and compromise its power with your blood. Same for me. But not so for the sacred heart of Jesus. Nothing, not even death can stop it from beating. And so as He lives, those who are in his Body live.

Jesus's blood cleans my sins and heal my wounds. There is no offsetting of sins. That which is offset remains, it is just offset, plus you can't offset sin.
Instead, there is cleaning and healing therefore power to rise from the dead to life on the day of resurrection. Only that which has been purified will be able to rise into life. No corrupt thing rise to life again only the pure; the purified.

[Ramadhan]

The people of God are alive in God and are in communion with each other. This means they can communicate through the Holy Spirit of God. Death has been conquered and is no longer a barrier between them. Moreover some of the Fathers are still in this world. I have named some here already, I will not be naming anymore if it is for your mocking/snaring pleasure.

Ah it's getting clearer by now. So you are basically communicating with your dead ancestors through holy spirit, am I not right?
Also, I don't think you have specified the names of those dead people. Can anyone communicate with them, or just a select few?
And about my mocking, which part of my question that is mocking your belief? I just hope you don't misunderstand my eagerness to understand your faith with mocking.

And I think you have missed these questions:

So every church is one? Which church are we talking about? Can you please be more specific?

So those people are still holy even though they raped little boys, am I right?

We can ask about everything in christianity right, there is no area that is off limit, correct?
I appreciate your honesty.

There is no division where there is love. God is love. It is those who don't love who are divided. No love = divisions Love = integrity

Frankly, this definition is new to me.
God is love?
I thought for christians, God consists of the father, jesus, and the spirit? So the father, jesus and the spirit are basically love?
so basically according to this christian understanding, if we love, we become God, am I right?

[Amigo]

Ah it's getting clearer by now. So you are basically communicating with your dead ancestors through holy spirit, am I not right?
Also, I don't think you have specified the names of those dead people. Can anyone communicate with them, or just a select few?
And about my mocking, which part of my question that is mocking your belief? I just hope you don't misunderstand my eagerness to understand your faith with mocking.

And I think you have missed these questions:




We can ask about everything in christianity right, there is no area that is off limit, correct?
I appreciate your honesty.



Frankly, this definition is new to me.
God is love?
I thought for christians, God consists of the father, jesus, and the spirit? So the father, jesus and the spirit are basically love?
so basically according to this christian understanding, if we love, we become God, am I right?

No I did not miss any question and yes, every question is welcome, that is every honest question. But every Herod attitude question, deserve a Jesus attitude reply.

Yes, God is love; true life giving love.
And everyone who love this kind of love is born of God.
Those who don't love they dont know God, for God is love.

St. John whom I am paraphrasing is my father in this faith. The following are some of the other fathers and what they transmitted in relation to your question. If you are honest in your persistent questioning you will check them out, if not, I can tell serious questioning from snaring as I already pointed out.
Fr. Robert Barron: "Faith Seeks Understanding" this is a series of Q/A on youtube that should do a great deal to satisfy your questions if you are honest and serious.
Benedict XVI: God is Love: This is a Letter to Christians. You should also read it for your questions in you are honest and serious.
All your questions are answered in these two.

[Ramadhan]

No I did not miss any question and yes, every question is welcome, that is every honest question. But every Herod attitude question, deserve a Jesus attitude reply.

Can you please explain what is Herod attitude question, and which one of my questions is Herod attitude. I am afraid I don't know much about christian language. And what exactly is Jesus attitude reply? Doesn't Jesus love everyone according to christianity? Or does this mean Jesus did not love Herod?

Yes, God is love; true life giving love. And everyone who love this kind of love is born of God. Those who don't love they dont know God, for God is love.

Can you please explain to us how you came to conclusion that God is love?
And if a person is not born of God, who are they born from?
I think I love, so does this mean I know God?

St. John whom I am paraphrasing is my father in this faith. The following are some of the other fathers and what they transmitted in relation to your question. If you are honest in your persistent questioning you will check them out, if not, I can tell serious questioning from snaring as I already pointed out. Fr. Robert Barron: "Faith Seeks Understanding" this is a series of Q/A on youtube that should do a great deal to satisfy your questions if you are honest and serious. Benedict XVI: God is Love: This is a Letter to Christians. You should also read it for your questions in you are honest and serious. All your questions are answered in these two.

Yes, I have started to watch those, but they don't really answer my questions.
Also, you said in your reply to br. MustafaMC that you base your faith not on some writing, but why are you asking me to read what Benedict XVI wrote? To borrow your own words: what if I cannot understand english?
I read that these followings were not very good popes:
Stephen VI, Urban VI, Alexander VI, Pius XII, Benedict IX, Boniface VIII, NIcholas III, Clement V, Leo X, Sergius III
Were they also in communion with God and were infallible?

You mention St. John as your father. I understand that he us dead long time ago. How do you communicate with him? I would also like to speak with him if possible and ask him a few questions.

Thank you for your patience in replying to my queries, for I am glad that we can ask anything about christianity.

[Ramadhan]

Amigo, you missed this query of mine:

So every church is one? Which church are we talking about? Can you please be more specific?

I tried to look for the answer in the sources you gave me, but couldn't find it. I am confident that you can give me the answer as you generously explained to me that you know the asnwers to all my questions.

Thank you.

[Amigo]

Can you please explain what is Herod attitude question, and which one of my questions is Herod attitude. I am afraid I don't know much about christian language. And what exactly is Jesus attitude reply? Doesn't Jesus love everyone according to christianity? Or does this mean Jesus did not love Herod?

When they brought Jesus to Herod, Herod took opportunity to make fun of him by asking questions not out of need but to deride Jesus, he went on with all kinds of provocations and humiliation. Jesus remained silent. Another example is a town where Jesus went to heal people and set them free from their diseases and demonic possessions. They chased him out and he left them alone. All this Jesus did out of love. Love does not force itself on people.
Also God himself respects the gifts he has given to us. He gave us the gift of self-determination, so he respects it when we use it. However, God can not be forced to go against his own values by mocking and snaring. Same thing for those who have his Spirit.
I will decide when to answer or not to answer. Silence can be part of the appropriate answer from a loving heart. If you don't like it, you can do whatever you want, as Herod and others did.

Can you please explain to us how you came to conclusion that God is love? And if a person is not born of God, who are they born from? I think I love, so does this mean I know God?

I accepted and made the choice to love and love all men without exception.
Once you chose this path, you go on growing in understanding of God who makes his sun shine on all, even his enemies. For God is all good and no evil comes from Him. God is God of the living, and gives only life. Life, healing, redemption, forgiveness, restoration, comes from God. So those who know God do the same for all goodness comes from God. They do what they have received from God. It is a culture of life all around God in his people.

On the other hand, there is a culture of death; worship of death, for where there is worship of the one true God, there is a sense of integrity and this means respect of all life.
Those who are not born of God are born of other things obviously. They are alien to the ways of goodness and perfections for they are born of imperfect things. And you cannot keep integrity while related to imperfect things. Unless Perfection adopts us, we are doomed. Redemptions consists of the proccess of adoption into the ways of perfection. From darkness into light.
Those who grow in love know that God is love and see what gifts He has showered on us from the beginning. From the beginning, when God created us, he gifted us with the gift of love in integrity.
From the beginning, He always makes us father, mother and child; in integrity in our mother’s womb when He creates man. The three are always made together as one.
From the beginning, He shows us to bonding power of his creative love. He always makes us three in one. And he commands our heart to love so as to keep this integrity. For worship of One God consists of keeping this integrity. Those who love, keep integrity, those who keep integrity keep unity. Those who keep unity, knows peace and joy that comes from God.
However when we try to be perfect sons/daughter we find our family are not cooperating, for integrity in son-ship is tied to integrity of the related fatherhood and motherhood, To grow in integrity there is a need of a new birth; birth from a perfect family.
Human are not perfect, but God is perfect.
Perfect integrity, true sonship/daughtership is only possible in God.
Those who accept to be adopted by the Holy Spirit, they become sons/daughters in the Son of God, and perfect integrity become possible for them. For God is perfect Father.
Perfect integrity, is perfect son/daughter-ship, perfect love, perfect happiness.
It is Heaven: realm of perfect integrity where true love dwells and everlasting joy is possible.

Yes, I have started to watch those, but they don't really answer my questions. Also, you said in your reply to br. MustafaMC that you base your faith not on some writing, but why are you asking me to read what Benedict XVI wrote? To borrow your own words: what if I cannot understand english? I read that these followings were not very good popes: Stephen VI, Urban VI, Alexander VI, Pius XII, Benedict IX, Boniface VIII, NIcholas III, Clement V, Leo X, Sergius III Were they also in communion with God and were infallible? You mention St. John as your father. I understand that he us dead long time ago. How do you communicate with him? I would also like to speak with him if possible and ask him a few questions. Thank you for your patience in replying to my queries, for I am glad that we can ask anything about christianity.

If I remember correctly, I told brother Mustafa that finite writtings can not contain the infinite dimensions of the Word of God. Even humans use more than writting to communicate their messages. I told him that writting are not enough to grasp the full message of God. So you can't keep saying 'show me where in the Bible this is written' in order to believe something.
It is because not everything can be contained in the Bible that the Fathers in the Christian Faith have been writting and will always write as well as using other means to articulate what is not otherwise clearly articulated in the Bible. Full human dimension is at least required to transmitt the message of God to humans. For this reason, you have arts including youtube videos being used to explain the Christian Faith. You also have letters still being written just as the Apostles wrote letters to Christians from the beginning. Keep watching those videos, and reading that letter. You will get the answer. I am certain of that. Unless you have a different question poping up...
About infallibility, every Pope is kept from error in special situations. Check wikipedia for details, it gives enough for now.

[Ramadhan]

When they brought Jesus to Herod, Herod took opportunity to make fun of him by asking questions not out of need but to deride Jesus, he went on with all kinds of provocations and humiliation. Jesus remained silent. Another example is a town where Jesus went to heal people and set them free from their diseases and demonic possessions. They chased him out and he left them alone. All this Jesus did out of love. Love does not force itself on people.

Ah I see. You don't think I am like Herod, do you? :D
I am sure you love me, right?
My questions are pure out of curiosity, because it seems your answers are not standard christian, so I want to know more.

Also God himself respects the gifts he has given to us. He gave us the gift of self-determination, so he respects it when we use it. However, God can not be forced to go against his own values by mocking and snaring. Same thing for those who have his Spirit. I will decide when to answer or not to answer. Silence can be part of the appropriate answer from a loving heart. If you don't like it, you can do whatever you want, as Herod and others did.

So is there particular questions you don't like? I don't want to get silent treatment from you.

Those who are not born of God are born of other things obviously

So there are other sources of creation?

From the beginning, He always makes us father, mother and child; in integrity in our mother’s womb when He creates man. The three are always made together as one. From the beginning, He shows us to bonding power of his creative love. He always makes us three in one. And he commands our heart to love so as to keep this integrity. For worship of One God consists of keeping this integrity. Those who love, keep integrity, those who keep integrity keep unity. Those who keep unity, knows peace and joy that comes from God.However when we try to be perfect sons/daughter we find our family are not cooperating, for integrity in son-ship is tied to integrity of the related fatherhood and motherhood, To grow in integrity there is a need of a new birth; birth from a perfect family.

What about those babies whose father had died while they were in the womb? They surely cannot keep the integrity, so they are out of God now, am I correct?
Also, am I correct in my understanding that cghristians liken God to the union of father, mother, and the child?
So in this case for christians, the father = father, holy spirit = mother, jesus = child?
Does this mean that christians believe Jesus was born from the union of the father and holy spirit?

Human are not perfect, but God is perfect.

But in the other thread you said jesus is God, but we know Jesus is not perfect. These two statements clearly contradict each other, what do you think?

Perfect integrity, true sonship/daughtership is only possible in God.

So God has children, is this what you are saying?

Those who accept to be adopted by the Holy Spirit,

I understand that christians believe that God consists of the father, holy spirit and jesus. So is the job of adopting humans only done by holy spirit? Can the father also adopt humans as sons/daughters? how about jesus? can jesus also adopt humans as sons/daughters?

If I remember correctly, I told brother Mustafa that finite writtings can not contain the infinite dimensions of the Word of God. Even humans use more than writting to communicate their messages. I told him that writting are not enough to grasp the full message of God. So you can't keep saying 'show me where in the Bible this is written' in order to believe something. It is because not everything can be contained in the Bible that the Fathers in the Christian Faith have been writting and will always write as well as using other means to articulate what is not otherwise clearly articulated in the Bible. Full human dimension is at least required to transmitt the message of God to humans. For this reason, you have arts including youtube videos being used to explain the Christian Faith. You also have letters still being written just as the Apostles wrote letters to Christians from the beginning. Keep watching those videos, and reading that letter. You will get the answer. I am certain of that. Unless you have a different question poping up...

I see, so you are saying that bible is full of errors, but the writings of priests and popes are perfect. Is this the standard christians belief?
But those popes and priests write in language that I don't understand? How do common folks and uneducated people understand christianity if they don't speak latin or english? Is it true that only a select few are allowed to truly understand christianity?

About infallibility, every Pope is kept from error in special situations. Check wikipedia for details, it gives enough for now.

So you are saying that popes Stephen VI, Urban VI, Alexander VI, Pius XII, Benedict IX, Boniface VIII, NIcholas III, Clement V, Leo X, Sergius III were all in communion with God, and were from God?

Thank you again for your explanation, very enlightening for us to understand christianity more.

[Ramadhan]

Amigo, you missed this query of mine:

So every church is one? Which church are we talking about? Can you please be more specific?

This is very sincere question, and I am not mocking you in any way. I hope this question is not one of those "no-go" questions, or a question that receives silent treatment from you. Please tell me if it is. It is hard to know which questions I am allowed to ask and what is not.
But since you told me earlier you have the answers to all my questions, then I am waiting in patient.

[Amigo]

Ah I see. You don't think I am like Herod, do you? I am sure you love me, right? My questions are pure out of curiosity, because it seems your answers are not standard christian, so I want to know more.

My love would not prevent you from having a Herod attitude. People choose their own fate even before God. Blessings and curse are placed before us. We choose.

[Amigo]

Originally Posted by Amigo Those who are not born of God are born of other things obviously /
So there are other sources of creation?

Creating is not the samething as begetting.

[Amigo]

What about those babies whose father had died while they were in the womb? They surely cannot keep the integrity, so they are out of God now, am I correct?

Anyone who die in truth is alive, for life is existance in the truth not in the body.
In truth, a father is still a father of his childreen wether in the body or out of the body. Relationships exist in the truth first of all, not so much in the body. They body is only a sign, when the sign is gone, the reality remains.
Those who die in the truth, they die in God and so they are alive in God. They are only dead to this world, separated from the body but not from God.
And they will rise again those who are alive in God: those who died in truth.

[Amigo]

Also, am I correct in my understanding that cghristians liken God to the union of father, mother, and the child? So in this case for christians, the father = father, holy spirit = mother, jesus = child? Does this mean that christians believe Jesus was born from the union of the father and holy spirit?

The difference between the Holy Spirit and mothers is like the difference between God and Creation.
God does not enter into relationships, God exists and has always existed in relationship. God was never single, never married.
Man enters into relationships. He become a son/daughter, a father, or a mother. All this in the mother.
Mothers indicates our identities as creatures, time-bound, becoming what we were not before.
The Holy Spirit indicates the identity of God: Holy and love.

No, the Holy Spirit is not the mother of Jesus, the mother of Jesus is Mary.

[Amigo]

I understand that christians believe that God consists of the father, holy spirit and jesus. So is the job of adopting humans only done by holy spirit? Can the father also adopt humans as sons/daughters? how about jesus? can jesus also adopt humans as sons/daughters?

There is no divisions in God, there is only differences.
All three divine persons are involved in the adoption but each in hiw own particular way.
The Father adopts by the Holy Spirit in the Son.

[Amigo]

Originally Posted by Ramadhan So every church is one? Which church are we talking about? Can you please be more specific?

All those who are in the truth are one for there is one Truth. Those who are in truth and in love are in the one Church, this Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

[Tyrion]

This is very sincere question, and I am not mocking you in any way.

Listen, I'm not accusing you of anything, but you should know that even though you may not be trying to mock him, it might come off that way. Try changing the tone of your posts or something...

Anyone who die in truth is alive, for life is existance in the truth not in the body.
In truth, a father is still a father of his childreen wether in the body or out of the body. Relationships exist in the truth first of all, not so much in the body. They body is only a sign, when the sign is gone, the reality remains.
Those who die in the truth, they die in God and so they are alive in God. They are only dead to this world, separated from the body but not from God.
And they will rise again those who are alive in God: those who died in truth.

Amigo, you say a lot but I'm still not sure where you get all this... You're obviously not a typical Christian, so you'll need to explain where all your ideas come from. Right now, it just sounds like you've made them up. You can "feel" all you want, but you have no basis whatsoever for what you're saying. If you do, show it to us so we can discuss them instead.

[Ramadhan]

My love would not prevent you from having a Herod attitude. People choose their own fate even before God. Blessings and curse are placed before us. We choose.

But I certainly don't have a Herod attitude. :)
I am glad that you don't think I am a Herod-like :)

[Ramadhan]

Creating is not the samething as begetting.

Can you please explain more? What is the difference between "beget" and "create"? Excuse my limited english.
So God begets certain creations and does not beget other creation, I think I get you. So what are other sources of begetting apart from God?

[Ramadhan]

Anyone who die in truth is alive, for life is existance in the truth not in the body.

I have a hard time picturing this. You are saying very abstract thing. I am sure I am not the only who has difficulty in understanding your ideas.
So how do you communicate with these dead but alive people?
This is a very sincere question. You have been saying about how you are in communication with your dead ancestors, so can you please share us the secret?

In truth, a father is still a father of his childreen wether in the body or out of the body. Relationships exist in the truth first of all, not so much in the body. They body is only a sign, when the sign is gone, the reality remains.

So how do the children keep unity with their dead fathers or mothers? how do the children communicate with their dead parents?
and the children also have their own children, so does this mean that the union is not only of three, but of four, five and so on?
Am I correct in my understanding?

Those who die in the truth, they die in God and so they are alive in God. They are only dead to this world, separated from the body but not from God.

What do you mean by "die in god"? and "alive in god"? and what do you mean by "die in god so alive in god" ? so people are both dead and live at the same time? So are you living inside God now?
Excuse my lack of knowledge on christianity lingo.

And they will rise again those who are alive in God: those who died in truth.

Does this mean those who are not alive and dead in God will not be resurrected?

[Ramadhan]

The difference between the Holy Spirit and mothers is like the difference between God and Creation.

ah ok. but am I correct to summarise your previous statements about how a father, a mother and a child reflect christian idea of a three in one god?

God does not enter into relationships, God exists and has always existed in relationship

I don't think I understand this statement. What relationships that God has always existed in?

God was never single, never married.

So christians believe that God is plural. Thanks for clarifying.

You earlier said this:

From the beginning, He always makes us father, mother and child; in integrity in our mother’s womb when He creates man. the three are always made together as one.

However, as we all know, you are not the same as your father nor your mother, so I don't understand how you are one with your mother and father. You also have your own children. Can you please explain how you are only one with your mother and father? How about your grandparents? does this mean they are one with you also?

He become a son/daughter, a father, or a mother.

Man also becomes uncle, grandchild, nephew, niece. Does this mean there also more persons in Godhood than just three?

All this in the mother. Mothers indicates our identities as creatures, time-bound, becoming what we were not before.

So christians believe that only mothers indicate our identities as creatures? Thanks for this more enlightening info on christian creed. fascinating, I must say.

The Holy Spirit indicates the identity of God: Holy and love.

So holy spirit's job description is to indicate the identity of God? Does this mean that without holy spirit, God has no identity?
More fascinating aspect of christianity, I must say.

No, the Holy Spirit is not the mother of Jesus, the mother of Jesus is Mary.

So the holy spirit goes into union with mary and beget Jesus?

[Ramadhan]

There is no divisions in God, there is only differences.

But the three (father, holy spirit and jesus) are three different persons, am I correct? They also have their own job descriptions and personalities, right?

All three divine persons are involved in the adoption but each in hiw own particular way.

Can you please tell me how christians believe in the differences of adoptions between father, holy spirit and jesus?
Does a christian have a choice who they want to be adopted?
Is there some sort of application process? I apologize for asking too much, but your explanations only generate so much questions, I hope you don't mind.

The Father adopts by the Holy Spirit in the Son.

I really don't understand this sentence. Can you please explain more?
Does this mean that the father along with holy spirit adopt jesus?

[Ramadhan]

All those who are in the truth are one for there is one Truth. Those who are in truth and in love are in the one Church, this Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

Does this mean the only one church is catholic church?

[Ramadhan]

Amigo, I am afraid that you missed these questions.
I apologize if these questions are no-go questions, but please let me know. And please tell me what other questions you find not worth responding. Thanks.

I see, so you are saying that bible is full of errors, but the writings of priests and popes are perfect. Is this the standard christians belief? But those popes and priests write in language that I don't understand? How do common folks and uneducated people understand christianity if they don't speak latin or english? Is it true that only a select few are allowed to truly understand christianity?

So you are saying that popes Stephen VI, Urban VI, Alexander VI, Pius XII, Benedict IX, Boniface VIII, NIcholas III, Clement V, Leo X, Sergius III were all in communion with God, and were from God? Thank you again for your explanation, very enlightening for us to understand christianity more.

[Ramadhan]

Listen, I'm not accusing you of anything, but you should know that even though you may not be trying to mock him, it might come off that way. Try changing the tone of your posts or something...

Amigo has not accused me of mocking him, and I don't think there's anything so far in my discussions with him that is considered as mocking amigo.
I apologize if it hurts your sensibilities.

Amigo, you say a lot but I'm still not sure where you get all this... You're obviously not a typical Christian, so you'll need to explain where all your ideas come from. Right now, it just sounds like you've made them up. You can "feel" all you want, but you have no basis whatsoever for what you're saying. If you do, show it to us so we can discuss them instead.

Ah, you must have not followed Amigo's posts, for he already stated that he does not believe in the scriptures because it is only written texts. That's why I keep asking him questions, but I never asked him to back up what he has been saying with his own scripture.
Apparently, christians are allowed to not believe in their own scripture.

[Tyrion]

Ah, you must have not followed Amigo's posts, for he already stated that he does not believe in the scriptures because it is only written texts. That's why I keep asking him questions, but I never asked him to back up what he has been saying with his own scripture.

Yeah, I caught that bit... That's why I'm asking him to tell us exactly where he's getting all this stuff from... (I'm guessing it's all from his head.. )

Apparently, christians are allowed to not believe in their own scripture.

Tbh, I think Amigo here is in a class of his own...

Amigo has not accused me of mocking him, and I don't think there's anything so far in my discussions with him that is considered as mocking amigo.
I apologize if it hurts your sensibilities.

Again, it was just some advice. You can take it or leave it, it doesn't matter to me.

[Amigo]

When you guys refers to what I said, go back to what I said and read carefully.

[Tyrion]

When you guys refers to what I said, go back to what I said and read carefully.

Most of what you said were just empty words... Half of it didn't make sense... And plus, if you have no evidence for what you say how can we be expected to take any of it? At least most Christians will use the Bible as their source of information... Most Muslims will use their scholars, Quran, and Hadith... If these sources are used, then we can have a discussion. You however don't seem to have any basis for anything... You're just throwing out your own personal ideas. (seems like that anyway)

[Amigo]

For the sake of those who did not follow the discussion:
Christians scriptures were written by Christians for Christians in the context of the Church. The Church wrote the NT and compiled the BIBLE. In all reasonableness, I Christian should be the one guiding a non-Christian in reading the Bible not vice versa. In all humility and rationality, non-Christians should realise this simple fact, and check with Christians how to read the Bible.
For this reason, in Christianity the pillar of Truth is not the Bible/scriptures, it is the Church.
The Church or Christianity have existed well before any new NT scripture was written. This is fact any person in his right mind knows and undestands. This is not my opinion or something I am making up. I did not make history, I am only being most reasonable and honest about history and reality.

The reason Christianity is not founded on scripture is simple. Christianity is a religion of Truth. It acknoweledge that the infinite Word of God can not fit in human syllables. It acknowledge that even man can't fit his communications only in words. For this reason the source of Truth in Christianity is God himself using various temporal means appropriate; writtings included. Jesus spoke in paraboles because regular human language is not enough to transmitt spiritual realities. The Church therefore use various temporal means to transmitt translate eternal truth to humans and help them to grasp the eternal language of God.

Holy Scriptures is highly estimed in the Church and it is used most reasonably. Without adding or substracting anything to the Truth/Word of God. For one who takes care to consider everything in their right measure and capacity, is watching not to add or remove anything from the Eternal Word of God which is the Truth itself. The Truth in everything and of everything.
Any one who respect the truth, respects limits and right measure, and does not add or remove from what God has decreed for everything.

Scriptures is used by the childreen of the Church to celebrate and remember their history and the goodness of God to all humanity from the beginning. Otherwise, for a Christian, God is with us. We can do without any scipture. Knowing reading and writting is not a requirement for Heaven. All that we need is the Holy Spirit of God.

When questions are asked of me then about Christianity, I am free to provide any source I believe to be enough to answer the question, I don't have to agree with anyone about what source to use about presenting my Faith and any honest inquiry should find it most reasonable. Questions meant to as derisions, I will simply not answer them. If there is any penalty for not answering questions here, I will be glad to face it if that's what it takes to honor sincerity, the Holy Name of God. I will not be pushed to feeding viciousness or any other wickedness while I see it.

[Ramadhan]

Christians scriptures were written by Christians for Christians in the context of the Church.

I see. So the bible is for christians only, am I right?
and us non-christians are not allowed to hear the words from the bible?
I'm just curious as to why christianity are so exclusive.

[Tyrion]

Lol, don't play the victim buddy. But I think your last post summed things up nicely... You don't use any ounce of reason to reach your conclusions, and from what I've gathered, you rely on nothing but blind faith. No amount of discussion can change that, and so I won't be asking you any more questions.

[MustafaMc]

I see. So the bible is for christians only, am I right?
and us non-christians are not allowed to hear the words from the bible?
I'm just curious as to why christianity are so exclusive.

Brother Ramadhan, from what I can tell, the Bible is mostly irrelevant to Amigo and what is important to him is the Catholic Church, including their sacraments as Amigo so indicated, "For this reason, in Christianity the pillar of Truth is not the Bible/scriptures, it is the Church." I have heard that 'there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church' such that even Protestant Christians are seen as heretical losers on Judgment Day. For a Protestant their view is more along the lines of 'there is no salvation outside the shed blood of Jesus'. The Bible is much more respected by Protestants who see it as 'the Word of God' whereas for Catholics it seems they readily admit the human nature of the Bible as Amigo said, "The Church wrote the NT and compiled the BIBLE." For the longest time most Catholics did not even own a Bible and relied upon their priest to tell them 'what the Truth is'. From what I know until recently the Bible used by priests was written in Latin which was not understood by the common people. One of the first translations of the Bible into English, a language used by the common people, was the King James version in the early 1600's. Catholics were forbidden from owning or reading this translation. It seems that it would be completely unreasonable to Amigo that someone would read a book, see the Truth in it, and then change his religion as I did over 29 years ago when I read the Quran.

[brmm]

For the sake of those who did not follow the discussion:
Christians scriptures were written by Christians for Christians in the context of the Church. The Church wrote the NT and compiled the BIBLE. In all reasonableness, I Christian should be the one guiding a non-Christian in reading the Bible not vice versa. In all humility and rationality, non-Christians should realise this simple fact, and check with Christians how to read the Bible.
For this reason, in Christianity the pillar of Truth is not the Bible/scriptures, it is the Church.
The Church or Christianity have existed well before any new NT scripture was written. This is fact any person in his right mind knows and undestands. This is not my opinion or something I am making up. I did not make history, I am only being most reasonable and honest about history and reality.

The reason Christianity is not founded on scripture is simple. Christianity is a religion of Truth. It acknoweledge that the infinite Word of God can not fit in human syllables. It acknowledge that even man can't fit his communications only in words. For this reason the source of Truth in Christianity is God himself using various temporal means appropriate; writtings included. Jesus spoke in paraboles because regular human language is not enough to transmitt spiritual realities. The Church therefore use various temporal means to transmitt translate eternal truth to humans and help them to grasp the eternal language of God.

Holy Scriptures is highly estimed in the Church and it is used most reasonably. Without adding or substracting anything to the Truth/Word of God. For one who takes care to consider everything in their right measure and capacity, is watching not to add or remove anything from the Eternal Word of God which is the Truth itself. The Truth in everything and of everything.
Any one who respect the truth, respects limits and right measure, and does not add or remove from what God has decreed for everything.

Scriptures is used by the childreen of the Church to celebrate and remember their history and the goodness of God to all humanity from the beginning. Otherwise, for a Christian, God is with us. We can do without any scipture. Knowing reading and writting is not a requirement for Heaven. All that we need is the Holy Spirit of God.

When questions are asked of me then about Christianity, I am free to provide any source I believe to be enough to answer the question, I don't have to agree with anyone about what source to use about presenting my Faith and any honest inquiry should find it most reasonable. Questions meant to as derisions, I will simply not answer them. If there is any penalty for not answering questions here, I will be glad to face it if that's what it takes to honor sincerity, the Holy Name of God. I will not be pushed to feeding viciousness or any other wickedness while I see it.

You are telling us that in your faith man' word comes before God's word !

[Hamza Asadullah]

For the sake of those who did not follow the discussion:
Christians scriptures were written by Christians for Christians in the context of the Church. The Church wrote the NT and compiled the BIBLE. In all reasonableness, I Christian should be the one guiding a non-Christian in reading the Bible not vice versa. In all humility and rationality, non-Christians should realise this simple fact, and check with Christians how to read the Bible.
For this reason, in Christianity the pillar of Truth is not the Bible/scriptures, it is the Church.

If only you as a Christian "supposedly" understands the Bible then why have you clearly shown otherwise? Why have you been unable to show us ANY proof or evidence of your beliefs in the scriptures?

Why it is that you seem out of your depth when it comes to debate and giving proof of what you claim but rant emotional fallacies when it is clear you cannot answer the questions?

You claim that the Bible was created for the church. I thought it was meant for mankind? Again you have contradicted your very own beliefs and have shown you know not what you are talking about.

Which church denomination was the Bible created for then? The catholic church? The protestant church? Oh what about the evangelical church? Which of the countless denominations was the Bible created for? Please enlighten us....

The Church or Christianity have existed well before any new NT scripture was written. This is fact any person in his right mind knows and undestands. This is not my opinion or something I am making up. I did not make history, I am only being most reasonable and honest about history and reality.

You did not make church history but you clearly know nothing about it and the war and bloodshed that led to the creation of many of the denominations we see today as well as eradication of others and the infiltration of many false Greek mythological and polytheistic beliefs into the teachings of God and Christ.

So the only way you will truly know of the proper history of the church is to actually learn about it because it is clear you know nothing about it. Only then can you be honest about the reality of the history of the church and how so many false polytheistic beliefs permeated into church beliefs and teachings which went against the very teachings of God and Christ and made a religion which was monothiestic into a religion which is polytheistic.

The reason Christianity is not founded on scripture is simple. Christianity is a religion of Truth.

You are correct the Christianity of today is NOT found on the original scriptures at all and that is why so many after Jesus have consistantly made additions, deletions, editions and abrogations the words and teachings of God and Christ and this is exactly what happend after Jesus when the likes of Paul, Constantine, Athanius, Tertillian and many others twisted and changed the words, teachings and truth of God and the monotheistic teachings of Christ into polytheistic teachings which is the very thing that Jesus came down to rid his people of.

Clearly it is the truth of the scriptures which show the truth of a religion and without a doubt the fact that Christianity has moved SO far away from its original scriptures clearly shows why it is a religon that has deviated from the truth and into falsehood.

This is also why more people are reverting to Islam than any other faith and belief in this world and most of those reverts are Christians simply because they will find NO contradictions, editions, deletions and tampering by man in the teachings of God and his Prophet in the Islamic scriptures and EVERY fundamental belief is FULLY backed up by the Qur'an and the words and teachings of the Prophet.

It acknoweledge that the infinite Word of God can not fit in human syllables. It acknowledge that even man can't fit his communications only in words. For this reason the source of Truth in Christianity is God himself using various temporal means appropriate; writtings included. Jesus spoke in paraboles because regular human language is not enough to transmitt spiritual realities. The Church therefore use various temporal means to transmitt translate eternal truth to humans and help them to grasp the eternal language of God.

Until this very day the church is NOT united in its fundamental beliefs. That is why you will see countless churches all with differing beliefs in their fundamentals. This is because the fundamentals of Christianity are NOT backed up by the scriptures and so this makes those fundamentals up for change.

That is why the church is constantly changing the fundamentals and many of the dogmas that were created by Paul and those after him are still up for change today.

This is clearly NOT an indication of a religion of truth but a religion that is in absolute turmoil and feel that they have to constantly change the original laws of God and the teachings of Jesus just to try and redeem its diminishing image and rapidly falling number of worshippers.

The truth and the word of God is eternal but the church has consistantly changed the words, teachings and laws of God and Jesus beyond recognition and what we have today is nothing but the polytheistic teachings of Paul and those after him which was what Jesus came to eradicate.

Holy Scriptures is highly estimed in the Church and it is used most reasonably. Without adding or substracting anything to the Truth/Word of God. For one who takes care to consider everything in their right measure and capacity, is watching not to add or remove anything from the Eternal Word of God which is the Truth itself. The Truth in everything and of everything.

Again this shows you have no knolwedge of your own scriptures. Even Christian scholars confirm that the Bible is full of additions, deletions etc. So surely if this is the case then the word and teachings of God has also been changed beyond recognition.

There is NO correlation between the words and teachings of Jesus and God and the false polytheistic beliefs and teachings of Paul and those after him. If there was a correlation then WHY is there NO mention in the words of God or Jesus of the incarnation, trinity, theotakas, blood atonement of Christ, Original sin or any other pagan belief of Paul in the words of ANY Prophet, God or Jesus? Please explain this to us? Why NO ONE at the time of Jesus knew ANYTHING about these dogma's but suddenly after Paul these new polytheistic beliefs started to come about which were fully backed by Constantine and established at the nicean council.

Why would God and Jesus confuse their followers for hundreds of years by not mentioned any of these fundamental concepts but suddenly out of nowhere they were brought about by bloody wars bloodshed and torture. and inflitrated into church teachings.

I think you seriously need to look into Church history and you will realise the truth!

Any one who respect the truth, respects limits and right measure, and does not add or remove from what God has decreed for everything.

Then why have Gods word, laws and teachings been ignored and changed and the false and polytheistic teachings of Paul and those after him practised upon today - which go against the teachings of Jesus and God?

If only the truth of God and his original laws and teachings were applied to the church then we would NEVER have the polytheistic beliefs which have infiltrated the Church and that which God and Jesus TOTALLY warned against such as the incarnation, trinity, theotakas, blood atonement of Christ, original sin and many other polytheistic beliefs which have infiltrated the church since the ascension of Jesus.

None of those dogmas are mentioned above are taught by ANY Prophet, God or Jesus so clearly Gods word, laws and commands have been rejected and instead the false teachings of Paul and those after him adopted and practised today.

Scriptures is used by the childreen of the Church to celebrate and remember their history and the goodness of God to all humanity from the beginning. Otherwise, for a Christian, God is with us. We can do without any scipture.

Without scripture how can you know the truth of God? Without scripture how can you know what God requires of you? How can you obey his commands without what his word?

Without scripture how can you know what is going against the truth of God and his teachings and commandments?

In this statement you will revealed the fundamental flaw of Christianity which is that it has moved SO far away from its original scriptures beyond recognition and the result is a religion which was created, deleted, edited, changed by those after Jesus until this very day when fundamentals are constantly being changed and moved away from the original teachings of God and Jesus.

Knowing reading and writting is not a requirement for Heaven. All that we need is the Holy Spirit of God.

So knowing what God requires of us so that we may follow his commands as best we can is not a requirement for salvation? Then what is the point of scripture? Why did God reveal anything in the first place if it is not required?

If all of your beliefs were fully backed up by your scriptures like they are in Islam then you would never say what you have just said. This exposes a fundamental flaw in your thinking and beliefs.

Also Is baptism not a requirement of Heaven? What about an unborn baby or a baby that was never baptised? They are doomed to Hell forever!

When questions are asked of me then about Christianity, I am free to provide any source I believe to be enough to answer the question,

So if we were to ask you a question about your scriptures would you give us proof and evidence from the Veda's? Or from the buddhist scriptures? Obviously we would require for you to provide us proof and evidence form your own scriptures but this is something you have been consistantly unable to do. You are clearly frustrated with the fact that you have been unable to provide any proof or evidence of your beliefs using your own scriptures and that is why you have failed everytime.

I don't have to agree with anyone about what source to use about presenting my Faith and any honest inquiry should find it most reasonable. Questions meant to as derisions, I will simply not answer them. If there is any penalty for not answering questions here, I will be glad to face it if that's what it takes to honor sincerity, the Holy Name of God. I will not be pushed to feeding viciousness or any other wickedness while I see it.

Throughout your time here you have not answered one direct question properly. When asked for proofs and evidence you make absurd statements which show nothing. It is clear that you do not even understand your own scriptures and from your last post it is apparent that you have no wish to do so.

You have just admitted indirectly that you cannot answer any questions because deep down you know the truth is that NONE of your scriptures back up any of your false beliefs regarding God and Jesus.

You keep talking about disregarding your sciptures then how would you know what to believe and what not to believe? How would you distinguish the truth from falsehood?

When a person has no knolwedge of Gods teachings then this opens the doors to Satan who can easily mislead a person into believing that which is other than the truth.

A lot of what you have stated is very worrying and i would hope that you and others would realise that the word and teachings of God are crucial for the guidance of mankind. That is why we should adhere to the original commandments of God and you will find this in Islam so i urge you to open your heart to Islam and look into it for yourself and there is no doubt you will find the truth in the Islamic scriptures which are still in its original form from revelation until now unlike Christianity which has moved so far from its scriptures that it is byeond recognition today.

That is why you are having to look at other sources in order to try and back up your beliefs because they are NOT found in ANY of the words and teachings of ANY Prophet, God or Jesus.

You have resorted to complete blindness, so much so that you have rejected the truth of God and his teachings. This is something you will have to reconcile in your own conscience.

Until then May God guide you and all others to the truth. Ameen

[al yunan]

Assalamu Alaikum to all the brothers and sisters on this forum,

I seek your help in clarifying the following:

Is there any truth in the teachings as to the responses to Christians and Jews mentioned in the Quran by Allah S.W.T are specified and one may not elaborate further ?
The Bible and the Torah may only be used By Muslims who have rule over Christians and Jews and have to arbitrate ?
The example quoted is the case of the Jewish man who came to the Prophet p.p.b.u.h for help when the Jewish community had already sentenced this man.
The Prophet p.p.b.u.h asked him to produce his evidence in the Torah and a Sahabi who knew Hebrew read and even though the man tried to hide the relevant verses he was sentenced as per the Torah.
That there is a restriction placed by the prophet p.p.b.u.h as to who may study books of other faiths ?
That the scholars circa 5Th century Hijri actually brought into law that only certified by state scholars had the right to Interfaith public discourse ?
And finally that the prophet p.p.b.u.h prohibited the ridicule or harassment of other faiths ?

Does anyone remember Ahmed Deedat ?
Do you know of his end ?
What is your opinion of him and his body of work ?

Masalam

[May Ayob]

Does anyone remember Ahmed Deedat ? Do you know of his end ? What is your opinion of him and his body of work ?

Salaam i am not a scholar and i dont know how to answer all these questions but , i had a good opinion about Ahmad Deedat and Zakir Naik as well , why did something bad happen to him?

Salaam

[Amigo]

You are telling us that in your faith man' word comes before God's word !

No. I am saying that there is a big difference between men's 'words' and God's 'Word'.
And for the sake of honesty and integrity, this difference is respected in the Church(see link for those honestly interested in details)

[Amigo]

Also Is baptism not a requirement of Heaven? What about an unborn baby or a baby that was never baptised? They are doomed to Hell forever!

You don't need to to know how to read and write in order to get baptized.

[Hamza Asadullah]

You don't need to to know how to read and write in order to get baptized.

If a baby died and was never baptised then is it doomed to Hell?

[Amigo]

If a baby died and was never baptised then is it doomed to Hell?

No. A person who dies without being baptized and it is not of any fault of their own, is not doomed to Hell.

[Ramadhan]

No. A person who dies without being baptized and it is not of any fault of their own, is not doomed to Hell.

Who told you this?

By the way, amigo, I still have a series of questions in the previous page waiting for your answers. Thank you.

[Hamza Asadullah]

No. A person who dies without being baptized and it is not of any fault of their own, is not doomed to Hell.

Holla Amigo,

Once again you have proved you know nothing about your scriptures. Let us look at If Eph. 2:3, "By nature the children of wrath," means born with a sinful nature and under the wrath of God because of that nature which the advocates of the doctrine of original sin teach then it follows that EVERY child who dies in infancy goes to hell where he must forever suffer the awful punishment and wrath of God.

So this text itself proves THAT BABIES WHO DIE GO TO HELL where they will suffer God's wrath in never-ending punishment.

What a just and kind God you believe in Amigo.

If babies really are born "by nature the children of wrath," then they must go to hell if they die in such a state.

Let us also look at Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me," means that even unborn children in their mother's womb are sinners, then it follows that all the multiplied millions of children who have been aborted, along with all stillbirths, ARE IN HELL where they will suffer its torments throughout all eternity for "their part" in the sin of Adam.

Also about a month ago a former Christian member of this forum made the following statement confirming the belief that a baby who died before baptism may go Hell forever:

"No one likes to think of babies being condemned to hell it just feels wrong, and perhaps their not but that's under God's jurisidiction not ours. Yet, you could argue that babies are man at his most egostical. How? Easy, all they do is want, want, want; they don't listen to reason. If you argue with a baby you'll lose because their way is the only way. Babies from a psycological point of view are pure Id.

So while we don't want to think of babies condemned to hell, if they aren't baptized they may go there. This is why some Christians practice infant baptism. Those that don't usually don't understand the consequences of it. Even though it's in the bible to perform infant baptism."

Adios Amigo

[Amigo]

Heheh, so you were trying to trap me by your question...like pharisees to Jesus! You have your reward with you.

However for the sake of those who may be mislead by what you are putting in my mouth:

The Word of God is everywhere and communicates with everyone wherever they may be the love of God.
Jesus was a baby, he knows how to communicate with babies.
Jesus suffered, he knows how to communicate with the suffering.
Jesus was a dead man, he knows how to communicate with dead people.
No one is outside the juridiction of Jesus: the Word of God.

[Ramadhan]

Heheh, so you were trying to trap me by your question...like pharisees to Jesus! You have your reward with you.

Amigo, why are you so afraid with questions?
If you have the truth with you, surely it is easy for you to answer questions regarding your belief, and especially if you want to spread your truth, wouldn't you so want to answer them?

However for the sake of those who may be mislead by what you are putting in my mouth:

Who is putting what to your mouth? I am confused.

The Word of God is everywhere and communicates with everyone wherever they may be the love of God.

I thought it is holy spirit who is everywhere? What is the difference between holy spirit and the word of god?
is bible the word of god?
How do people communicate with the word of god, and how do they know it is the word of god they communicate with?

Jesus was a baby, he knows how to communicate with babies. Jesus suffered, he knows how to communicate with the suffering. Jesus was a dead man, he knows how to communicate with dead people. No one is outside the juridiction of Jesus: the Word of God.

So when Jesus became adult, could he still communicate with babies?
and when Jesus was not suffering, could he still also communicate with the healthy and wealthy?
And when jesus was alive, could he also communicate with the dead? Why did jesus need to die to communicate with the dead? Isnt he god?
And how about the father and holy spirit? Do they also communicate with the dead, babies, and the suffering?

[MustafaMc]

What does baptism have to do with forgiveness? What sin did babies commit that they should be forgiven?

[Amigo]

What does baptism have to do with forgiveness? What sin did babies commit that they should be forgiven?

If a tree is corrupt, its fruit will be corrupt.
If a person is a theif and went to prison, and had a baby in prison, the baby is in prison even though the baby did not steel.
If a couple wonders in a forbidden area, and fall into a deep pit and start living there. Their babies will be born there even though the babies did not disobey any command of God.

Parents are sinners and their babies are born in sin. Baptism is about setting those babies free from sin.
baptism is a new birth, not in corruption and imperfection, but in the right place: God.

[brmm]

Heheh, so you were trying to trap me by your question...like pharisees to Jesus! You have your reward with you.

However for the sake of those who may be mislead by what you are putting in my mouth:

The Word of God is everywhere and communicates with everyone wherever they may be the love of God.
Jesus was a baby, he knows how to communicate with babies.
Jesus suffered, he knows how to communicate with the suffering.
Jesus was a dead man, he knows how to communicate with dead people.
No one is outside the juridiction of Jesus: the Word of God.

Amigo.. I can't see your comments on brother Hamza Asdullah quote ?

By the way, I wish to know from you the most strongest evidences which made you consider Jesus as your god? Is it because of his miracles, or because he had no father or what?

Have a nice day

[brmm]

GOOD NEWS ::: GOOD NEWS :::

It seems "Just a Guy " have converted to Islam and said the Shahada :)

[Who Am I?]

GOOD NEWS ::: GOOD NEWS :::

It seems "Just a Guy " have converted to Islam and said the Shahada :)

Yep, I took shahada Wednesday night.

I was going to wait until I knew more about Islam, but I realized that life is not guaranteed, and if I die, I want to die with peace in my heart knowing that I have made the right choice.

There is still a lot that I don't know about being a Muslim, but I will learn, inshallah.

[brmm]

Yep, I took shahada Wednesday night.

I was going to wait until I knew more about Islam, but I realized that life is not guaranteed, and if I die, I want to die with peace in my heart knowing that I have made the right choice.

There is still a lot that I don't know about being a Muslim, but I will learn, inshallah.

Alhamdolillal Brother many times,
I had a feeling in my heart that you will convert sooner or later, but Alhamdolillah it was sooner :) thats why I called you Pre-Brother.

I think you know that in Islam, when you convert you start a new age like a new born baby, so my advise for you from my own experience is that "Keep your past in the past behind your back, ask Allah Sobhanaho for forgiveness and don't let the people know much about it even the close ones"
Now u r 2 days old only :D

The people of Mecca and Madina always have the right way in Islam since prophet Mohammed PBUH had his message there, so be sure to follow their way.

If you have a question and you didn't believe any answer, read what the Quran says to you and follow it.

All of us have weaknesses and good time in our faith, so when you are in your good time, keep asking Allah sobhanaho to fix your belief on Islam and strength you in your weakness.

And if you need to enjoy a close connection with Allah sobhanaho, wake up after 3AM, and do prayers in a relax way with Dua (asking Allah for some thing good), inshallah you will test it, it has a very special feeling.

And you know as a Muslim, you should highly respect your parents and give everyone his right Muslim or non-Muslim.

Inshallah your next life will be much beautiful, and welcome with us as a brother, we are proud of you, and your value with what you do not with who you are.

BRMM

[Amigo]

Amigo.. I can't see your comments on brother Hamza Asdullah quote ?

?

By the way, I wish to know from you the most strongest evidences which made you consider Jesus as your god? Is it because of his miracles, or because he had no father or what?

Evidences are about truth. They are in the truth.
Strongest evidences are deep within the intimacy of truth.
Do not lie to your brother, your friend, your parent, your boss, your teacher, the government, your childreen, etc....
Love everyone including those you consider your enemies.
Follow and stay in the path of truth and love, then you will see truth and love more and more: You will see Jesus more and more.
If you want sincerely what you ask you will have it.
DO NOT BE AFRAID. He says PEACE BE WITH YOU, and it will be with you if you trust and receive it.
Denounce all falsehood, all deceit, all malice...and do not follow anyone who approves, justifies, and teach that some lies/falsehood are ok.
God is Holy, there is no falsehood in Him or about Him. If you want to approch Him, you must denounce the tinies lie.
If you want the full truth about God, then embrace the full truth and denounce ALL falsehood.

Those are his directions which I followed, and saw Him and believed.
If you follow his directions, it will not be long before you find Jesus yourself. Then consider the evidences yourself.

[brmm]

?


I am with Jesus. He is here, and you will see him yourself if you follow his directions:
Evidences are about truth. They are in the truth.
Strongest evidences are deep within the intimacy of truth.
If you want sincerely what you ask you will have it. Just follow the path of truth and enter deeper and deeper.
DO NOT BE AFRAID. He says PEACE BE WITH YOU, and it will be with you if you receive it.
Denounce all falsehood, all deceit, all malice...and do not follow anyone who approves, justifies, and teach that some lies/falsehood are ok.
God is Holy, there is no falsehood in Him or about Him. If you want to approch Him, you must denounce the tinies lie. Do not lie to your brother, your boss, your teacher, your friend, to no one... live in the truth...
Love everyone including those you consider your enemies.
If you remain in the truth, you will see more and more of the truth: more and more of Jesus.

These are the directions given by Jesus Himself. I followed them, and I found Him. I considered what I saw, and I believed.
If you follow them, it will not be long before you find Jesus yourself. Then consider the evidences for yourself.

Hi Amigo,
You have good feelings about your faith, I have good feelings about my faith, non Christian/Muslim people of different faiths also the same, I saw people on TV who made toys and worshiped them and they have also good feelings in their faith, I even heard that there are some people worship Google :skeleton: because they say "Google knows everything ! ".

At the end of the day, we should be able, as individuals, to give some, what we think are, reasonable evidences to support our beliefs.

You are in an Islamic forum by your own will, I think you should have this chance to explain and defend your faith with evidences, verses from the Bible, studies, proofs ..etc since you have many Muslim readers and everyone here learns from the others.

I would appreciate if you can give us more clear answers.

BRMM

[Amigo]

Hi Amigo,
You have good feelings about your faith, I have good feelings about my faith, non Christian/Muslim people of different faiths also the same, I saw people on TV who made toys and worshiped them and they have also good feelings in their faith, I even heard that there are some people worship Google :skeleton: because they say "Google knows everything ! ".

At the end of the day, we should be able, as individuals, to give some, what we think are, reasonable evidences to support our beliefs.

You are in an Islamic forum by your own will, I think you should have this chance to explain and defend your faith with evidences, verses from the Bible, studies, proofs ..etc since you have many Muslim readers and everyone hear learn from the others.

I would appreciate if you can give us more clear answers.

BRMM

Sorry, I did some editing/polishing after you had posted without realizing it.
But the message is still the same. I hope it is only clearer. If not:
There is no stronger evidence than real life.
Be real: don't practice lies at all. Then you will prouve your faith in truth.
I can't be clearer than this. Real life is clearer than me. Be true in life, and you will see clearer.
Real life proves real truth and real faith.

[UUSeeker]

Does the justice of Allah require a sacrificial payment or an off-setting good deed to atone for sin, or can He graciously forgive sin straight away with only the sinner asking Him for forgiveness in sincere repentance?

First to clarify the definition of 2 important words:
Atone - to make amends or reparation, as for an offense or a crime
Forgive - to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.)

From a Christian perspective, does Allah forgive (cancel, erase) a Christian of his sin or is his debt of sins atoned (paid, compensated) for by Jesus' Blood? One may see it as nit-picking but if a debt is forgiven then it is cancelled as a free gift without any payment from anyone. I see an atonement as a payment to offset or substitute for that debt even if the one to whom the debt is owed makes arrangement for its payment. If the debt is to Allah, then I don't see how He can pay or sacrifice Himself for something that is owed to Him. It makes more sense that out of His mercy and with a figurative sweep of His hand, then the sin debt vanishes.

A human repents by feeling regret, asking for forgiveness and intending to not repeat the sin, but how does he make amends? In Islam we make amends or atonement for our sins by offering additional charity, fasts or prayers, but are those deeds required for forgiveness? We have the concept of offsetting sins with good deeds akin to a balancing scale of justice, but this is seen as 'earning' one's salvation. Isn't Allah able to forgive sin with only repentance or is an atonement or payment for sin debt also required?

I personally see that Allah is merciful and forgiving along the lines of "...those who remember God and implore forgiveness for their sins if they do something shameful or wrong themselves - who forgives sins but God?..." (Qur'an, 3:135) If Allah can forgive sins, doesn't that completely negate the basic premise of Christianity - Jesus' supposed sacrifice on the cross as the only possible means of reconciliation with Allah?

I read through this thread, with many strong opinions expressed, but thought I would start with the original question/comment.
While I am a Unitarian Universalist, I have studied Christianity, but I still have a hard time with the whole forgiveness/atonement thing.
My faith tradition does not include punishment for sin, because we don't believe in sin.
When you asked why, since Christians say Jesus died for their sins, why do they need saving, I believe that is a very valid question, and one my predecessors asked centuries before me, and answered it by establishing a belief in universal salvation.
In other words, Unitarian Universalism teaches Allah will bring us all back to him, and nothing we do or don't do will alter that. For that reason, we believe we are duty bound to help others, make the world a better place, etc., but not because we are accruing "credits" for heaven, but rather because it is the right thing to do.
So, when you first asked whether Allah may forgive a sin without atonement, I would have to answer it is irrelevant, because we will all return to him anyway.

Peace,

Seeker

[Who Am I?]

Alhamdolillal Brother many times,
I had a feeling in my heart that you will convert sooner or later, but Alhamdolillah it was sooner :) thats why I called you Pre-Brother.

I think you know that in Islam, when you convert you start a new age like a new born baby, so my advise for you from my own experience is that "Keep your past in the past behind your back, ask Allah Sobhanaho for forgiveness and don't let the people know much about it even the close ones"
Now u r 2 days old only :D

The people of Mecca and Madina always have the right way in Islam since prophet Mohammed PBUH had his message there, so be sure to follow their way.

If you have a question and you didn't believe any answer, read what the Quran says to you and follow it.

All of us have weaknesses and good time in our faith, so when you are in your good time, keep asking Allah sobhanaho to fix your belief on Islam and strength you in your weakness.

And if you need to enjoy a close connection with Allah sobhanaho, wake up after 3AM, and do prayers in a relax way with Dua (asking Allah for some thing good), inshallah you will test it, it has a very special feeling.

And you know as a Muslim, you should highly respect your parents and give everyone his right Muslim or non-Muslim.

Inshallah your next life will be much beautiful, and welcome with us as a brother, we are proud of you, and your value with what you do not with who you are.

BRMM

I appreciate the welcome, brother.

There is a lot that I still don't know about Islam, but I continue to learn every day, mashallah. I pray daily that Allah will guide my steps and make me a better person.

I hope one day that I can show my parents and family through my words and deeds that I am a better man so that they too will come to know Islam.

[Impey]

I thought it is holy spirit who is everywhere? What is the difference between holy spirit and the word of god? is bible the word of god?
How do people communicate with the word of god, and how do they know it is the word of god they communicate with?

Intrigued by your scepticism here so I know Muslim say Allah is ONE but what does that mean, one what, where is Allah, is he in one place or is he everywhere or perhaps something else? If he is in one place I can see that we might communicate with him but if he is everywhere I am lost as to what communication means?

[MustafaMc]

My understanding is that Allah (swt) exists outside of our realm of existence which is that of space and time. We cannot comprehend Allah's (swt) existence, but He knows ours in every detail down to our most intimate thoughts. Allah (swt) is not 'here' at the exclusion of 'there' and neither is He everywhere at once within His creation except by His knowledge. I liken our existence to that of fish living in a fish tank with the tank walls made of one-way mirrors. All we are aware of is what is within our fish tank and know nothing of what is outside it because we can't sense beyond the mirror. Someone 'outside' the fish tank makes sure the aerator is working to add oxygen to the water, keeps adding water to the tank as it evaporates, and drops food in daily, but we know nothing of the source for these bountiful blessings. Perhaps, this sheds some light of understanding on our relationship to the Creator and Sustainer of our universe and Allah (swt) knows best.

[Amigo]

but if he is everywhere I am lost as to what communication means

I like this kind of reasoning. It shows a person who may be using the gift of thinking and caring about consistancy.

[Flame of Hope]

Intrigued by your scepticism here so I know Muslim say Allah is ONE but what does that mean, one what, where is Allah, is he in one place or is he everywhere or perhaps something else? If he is in one place I can see that we might communicate with him but if he is everywhere I am lost as to what communication means?

Allah means The God.

When we say Allah is One, we mean to say He is the ONLY GOD in existence. Singular.

There's only one way we can know about God's existence and that is through thought and reason.

We do not believe in the existence of The One God because some scripture declares it to be so.

We believe in His existence because there can be no law without a Law-Maker, no design without a Designer, no book without an Author and no creation without a Creator.

Since the existence of God is apparent to those who think and reflect, further reasoning and contemplation leads to the conclusion that the Lord of all the worlds could not have created the world for no reason. Centuries have elapsed since the creation of man. How likely is it that a God who has all power and wisdom would allow mankind in wander around in the state of darkness and not bring them into the light of Truth?

Answer: NOT LIKELY AT ALL.

An objective look at history informs us of the greatest man who ever lived... considered the most influential man in history by Michael Hart. The man was Prophet Muhammad (saws).

The world of the unseen is concealed and hidden from us and the only way we can have any knowledge of it is if God told us about it. God has told us about it through His messengers and Prophet Muhammad (saws) was the last of them. He brought the final word of God, The Qur'an, which gives us all the information we need to know about the Hereafter.

Including the nature of God.

So where is Allah? Is He in one place or is He everywhere?

Allah has informed us that He is close to us. Closer than our jugular vein.

I think that is sufficient information for us to handle...... to know that Allah is very near to us.... and that He knows our each and every move..... and that He is The All-Aware, The All-Seeing, The All-Hearing and The All-Knowing.

He isn't limited to time and space. He is so close to us that to communicate with Him is easy. He hears your every word..... is aware of all that's in your heart and knows your deepest secrets.

This is Allah, the One - The Irresistible.

Alhamdulillahir rabbil al ameen!

p.s. By the way, we believe in the Qur'an not because of what it contains..... but because we believe in the man who brought it..... Prophet Muhammad (saws) who was renowned for his trustworthiness and exemplary character. The same cannot be said about the Bible.... a book written by many authors, some of them unknown.

[Ramadhan]

Intrigued by your scepticism here so I know Muslim say Allah is ONE but what does that mean, one what, where is Allah, is he in one place or is he everywhere or perhaps something else? If he is in one place I can see that we might communicate with him but if he is everywhere I am lost as to what communication means?

You are responding to my questions about communicating with word of God, questions which actually stemmed from Amigo's series of statements about communicating with dead ancestors, holy spirit who told him directly knowledge about christianity, etc.
Now, since it seems you know much about christianity (is it only my imagination that you remind me of someone, or do christians write in similar style?), can you help amigo explain his belief of christianity?

I thought it is holy spirit who is everywhere? What is the difference between holy spirit and the word of god? is bible the word of god?
How do people communicate with the word of god, and how do they know it is the word of god they communicate with?

Now, about God is ONE, here's the qur'an surat which answers your question:
Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)
(QS. 112)

And just in case, you have forgotten, Jesus and your bible also strictly taught that God is ONE:
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

[Impey]

Allah means The God. When we say Allah is One, we mean to say He is the ONLY GOD in existence. Singular. There's only one way we can know about God's existence and that is through thought and reason. We do not believe in the existence of The One God because some scripture declares it to be so.

If I understand you the implication here is that we do not need scripture and the process called revelation is in fact a myth because if its anything at all it must be just thought and reasoning?

We believe in His existence because there can be no law without a Law-Maker, no design without a Designer, no book without an Author and no creation without a Creator. Since the existence of God is apparent to those who think and reflect, further reasoning and contemplation leads to the conclusion that the Lord of all the worlds could not have created the world for no reason. Centuries have elapsed since the creation of man. How likely is it that a God who has all power and wisdom would allow mankind in wander around in the state of darkness and not bring them into the light of Truth?

This sounds like a powerful argument but nevertheless it is an assumption on the existence of God. Its not centuries but as far as man goes we are talking of at least 15,000 years as far as we know and probably a long time before that. One must also say there are atheists who have considerable intellectual powers but do not come to the same conclusions so again you are making assumptions. Sadly, history is littered with argument for things that did not exist - for example there was phlogiston theory invented by Becher and it lasted for over 100 years but Boyle showed it was utter nonsense.

An objective look at history informs us of the greatest man who ever lived... considered the most influential man in history by Michael Hart. The man was Prophet Muhammad (saws).

True but this is Hart's view and I guess you like it but you would repudiate, and therefore be inconsistent, his other comment that he considered that the Qu'ran was written by Mohammed. One might also note that Hitler features in that list also.

The world of the unseen is concealed and hidden from us and the only way we can have any knowledge of it is if God told us about it. God has told us about it through His messengers and Prophet Muhammad (saws) was the last of them. He brought the final word of God, The Qur'an, which gives us all the information we need to know about the Hereafter. Including the nature of God.

Well of course YOU can believe it gives ALL we need to know but why should I accept that?

So where is Allah? Is He in one place or is He everywhere? Allah has informed us that He is close to us. Closer than our jugular vein. I think that is sufficient information for us to handle...... to know that Allah is very near to us.... and that He knows our each and every move..... and that He is The All-Aware, The All-Seeing, The All-Hearing and The All-Knowing.

Is this the same as the Christian view that says that God through his spirit is IN us?

By the way, we believe in the Qur'an not because of what it contains..... but because we believe in the man who brought it..... Prophet Muhammad (saws) who was renowned for his trustworthiness and exemplary character. The same cannot be said about the Bible.... a book written by many authors, some of them unknown.

I think your inconsistency is showing again for two reasons - you assume that because a book does not have a known author it is of little value and secondly who is the author of the Qu'ran - was it Mohammed, if not then it to is a book with no known author also.

[Impey]

Now, since it seems you know much about christianity (is it only my imagination that you remind me of someone, or do christians write in similar style?), can you help amigo explain his belief of christianity? Now, about God is ONE, here's the qur'an surat which answers your question: Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)
(QS. 112)

And just in case, you have forgotten, Jesus and your bible also strictly taught that God is ONE:
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

I am puzzled by this - you quote from the Qu'ran and the Bible so can I assume you regard them both as authoritative?

[M.I.A.]

why can god not work with atonement and forgiveness?

[MustafaMc]

why can god not work with atonement and forgiveness?

Brother, I believe that Allah (swt) can and does allow for good deeds with pure intention to offset or atone for sins which is why we often follow up a bad deed with a good one. I also believe that He forgives sins with our mere pleading for it with Him as on the day of Arafat during Hajj.

The point that I was trying to make is the distinction between the 2 words. Many Christians believe that God MUST punish sin to satisfy His justice and that the only possible redemption available for ones salvation from the Hellfire is to accept the Ultimate Sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross as an atonement for the sins of Humanity. They believe that there is no other possible way for the 'debt of sin' to be paid or for the 'stain of sin' to be cleansed other than through the 'Blood of Jesus'. This is directly contrary to the words of Jesus in the 4 gospels (Lord's Prayer) and negates the ability of God to forgive sin without any payment or atonement or sacrifice. If Allah (swt) can forgive sin with an atoning sacrifice, then the Christian 'Plan of Salvation' is a false doctrine.

[Ramadhan]

I am puzzled by this - you quote from the Qu'ran and the Bible so can I assume you regard them both as authoritative?

A first public warning to you:
a member who had previously been banned for severe violations of the forum rules, and re-registered under different name will be swiftly banned for repeating the same violations.

Don't think I don't know who you are, and you are posing questions you had asked many times and answered many times in the past.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;

Scriptures should inspire us to do something; they should help us to put God first, our neighbour second and ourselves third, and steer away from the temptations of this world.
I try and search for the message from the death and resurrection of Jesus, and the way it inspires me to try and change myself, which is a struggle. The nearest analogy I can think of is this….
Suppose you had a kind and caring friend, whom you had known for a long time, suppose this friend rescued you from a burning building, but he then died from his injuries. You are not in a position to pay him back for saving your life, but in the fullness of time you might be inspired to carry on doing the same kind of good deeds that he did, by doing this you might keep his memory alive.
God could just say your sins are forgiven, and they would be forgiven, but it seems that God has gone beyond this easy way of forgiving me, with the sacrifice of his son.
The message is deep and profound, and it causes me to reflect, and to try and change my ways. It is not an easy burden for me to carry, knowing that my sins caused Jesus to die.
.
In the spirit of seeking forgiveness for my sins
Eric

[MustafaMc]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;

And the same to you, EricH.

Scriptures should inspire us to do something; they should help us to put God first, our neighbour second and ourselves third, and steer away from the temptations of this world.

I agree with this.

I try and search for the message from the death and resurrection of Jesus, and the way it inspires me to try and change myself, which is a struggle. The nearest analogy I can think of is this….
Suppose you had a kind and caring friend, whom you had known for a long time, suppose this friend rescued you from a burning building, but he then died from his injuries. You are not in a position to pay him back for saving your life, but in the fullness of time you might be inspired to carry on doing the same kind of good deeds that he did, by doing this you might keep his memory alive.

Once I could relate to this analogy of Jesus dying on the cross so that you might have Eternal Life, but that is an interesting twist that I haven't seen - 'doing the same kind of good deeds he did'. Perhaps, you can see a similarity with Muslims imitating the life of Prophet Muhammad (saaws).

God could just say your sins are forgiven, and they would be forgiven, but it seems that God has gone beyond this easy way of forgiving me, with the sacrifice of his son.

I am not sure that I understand 'that God has gone beyond this easy way of forgiving'. Is this easy way not consistent with the Lord's Prayer, the parable of the Prodigal Son, the parable of the king and his indebted servant, and what Jesus supposedly said on the cross, “Father forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.”?

I understand you to say that acceptance of the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross is a necessary requirement for any chance of reconciliation between man and his Creator. You say that 'God could just say your sins are forgiven', but then you say He has gone beyond this forgiveness - I presume by providing the Ultimate Sacrifice so that an atonement was made for sin once and for all. The question is, "Is that atonement for our needs to feel a sense of gratitude (as you indicated and I once felt) and love toward God, or is the sacrifice a requirement for the satisfaction of God's apparent need for justice?"

The message is deep and profound, and it causes me to reflect, and to try and change my ways. It is not an easy burden for me to carry, knowing that my sins caused Jesus to die.
.
In the spirit of seeking forgiveness for my sins
Eric

...but if I understand correctly, your debt of sin has already been paid by Jesus' death and cleansed by his blood. If that is so, the atonement has already been paid and there is no need for forgiveness. From my perspective, Christians look backwards with confidence to Jesus' death on the cross as the source for their salvation, while Muslims look forward with hope in Allah's mercy for forgiveness on Judgment Day.

[Flame of Hope]

I am puzzled by this - you quote from the Qu'ran and the Bible so can I assume you regard them both as authoritative?

Well, to be frank one can quote from any book or any magazine or article.... provided that the quote speaks of a universal truth. The Bible has plenty of stuff in it that is true..... and we have absolutely no hesitation in quoting those things. But this does not mean that we regard the Bible as authoritative.

There are universal truths expressed even in Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism and Sikhism. But that does not mean we regard those religions to be authoritative.

Gandhi was a Hindu. Yet he made many statements of universal truths which I would have no hesitation in quoting. For example:

"The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong."

Now just because I quoted Gandhi who was a Hindu, it doesn't mean that I regard him as an authority to follow, along with Muhammad (saws).

Truth is the truth and it doesn't matter who utters it. It's self-evident. Whether it is in the Bible or Bhagwad Gita, it doesn't matter where it is! And it doesn't matter who says it either. 2 + 2 = 4. It doesn't matter which man tells you that the answer to 2 + 2 is 4.

And falsehood is falsehood too. It is also evident. But only to those who use their reason.

So while the Bible contains gems of universal truth within its pages, it also contains pure garbage.

We Muslims accept what is true............ and reject the garbage. And this is how God wants us to be. Not to accept everything..... but to use our minds to distinguish between truth and falsehood........ have the courage to accept the truth and also the courage to reject the falsehood.

I hope this makes things a little clearer to you Impey. You are a human being who can think. Use your thinking powers the way you should use them.... to save yourself from the Web of Lies woven by Satan.

Good luck!!

[Flame of Hope]

God could just say your sins are forgiven, and they would be forgiven, but it seems that God has gone beyond this easy way of forgiving me, with the sacrifice of his son.
The message is deep and profound, and it causes me to reflect, and to try and change my ways. It is not an easy burden for me to carry, knowing that my sins caused Jesus to die.

Greetings Eric H. How are you?

If you don't mind could you please help me understand how my sins caused Jesus to die?

Where in the Bible is this made clear?

Which passages in the Bible have convinced you so deeply that God had a son and that God sacrificed that son to pay for our sins?

[M.I.A.]

Brother, I believe that Allah (swt) can and does allow for good deeds with pure intention to offset or atone for sins which is why we often follow up a bad deed with a good one. I also believe that He forgives sins with our mere pleading for it with Him as on the day of Arafat during Hajj.

The point that I was trying to make is the distinction between the 2 words. Many Christians believe that God MUST punish sin to satisfy His justice and that the only possible redemption available for ones salvation from the Hellfire is to accept the Ultimate Sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross as an atonement for the sins of Humanity. They believe that there is no other possible way for the 'debt of sin' to be paid or for the 'stain of sin' to be cleansed other than through the 'Blood of Jesus'. This is directly contrary to the words of Jesus in the 4 gospels (Lord's Prayer) and negates the ability of God to forgive sin without any payment or atonement or sacrifice. If Allah (swt) can forgive sin with an atoning sacrifice, then the Christian 'Plan of Salvation' is a false doctrine.

lol i understood, but i said that just so you remain objective in your understanding.


the argument hinges on awareness,

if every blow is counter-matched, then this is the concept of atonement.

if a blow is not taken into account, then this is forgiveness.


the proof of allah swt is in that we dont know when we are hurting somebody(i would hope), but sometimes you learn to control your own speech and action.. within human limits of course..an awareness of freedom of choice...and its limits

its like a system that works on autopilot would be perfect, a closed system that is uniform in law and governance.
unfortunately we as individuals are often unpredictable...in our own eyes at least

i would think that allah swt made the system and the laws that govern it ie the universe and the natural order of things perfect.
i also think that we know that allah swt is beyond space, time and is all knowing.
so to me a system of atonement is a perfect system.

unfortunately it does not fit my concept of a most merciful creator, and allah swt's mercy is beyond my comprehension.
ie how mercy/forgiveness is expressed within a system that is perfect.

i guess its a circular argument for freedom of choice..again.

[MustafaMc]

Re: I attended a Catholic mass

It is quite interesting that the opening post by Daldianus on the Belief Corner forum exactly makes the same point I did on the OP of this thread.
http://www.beliefcorner.com/showthre...vs-Forgiveness

Quoting Lilly, "Jesus is the sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the whole world. A sacrifice of atonement was needed in order to fulfill justice. Because God has fulfilled justice for the sins of the whole world any of us can come to him and receive forgiveness of sins when we repent and put our trust in him." ... "You mean couldn't God forgive man his wrongdoing without justice being fulfilled? God is just and can be nothing less. God is also merciful and wants to forgive mankind. So he made the way for man to be forgiven and for justice to be upheld. He did this through Christ."... "What conditions are met by man? The only conditions are those God has met due to the fact that he is just. To simply turn a blind eye to wrongdoing is evil. God provided a way for man to be forgiven and for his sins to be atoned for."

Lilly provided the most reasonable explanation and one that is consistent with what I remember from my early years as a Christian in that God is just and therefore requires that sin must be punished. Again, this illustrates the point between atonement and forgiveness for the Christian that God is incapable of forgiving sin with a clean wipe of the slate as this would be unjust and 'evil' according to Lilly. My understanding is that Jesus' death was the atoning sacrifice that fulfilled God's justice and opened the door for man to seek forgiveness through repentence. The concept of presenting a sacrifice or an atonement before sin can be forgiven is foreign to Islam; however, my understanding is that when we make du'a for forgiveness it is best for us to first praise Allah (swt) with His most beautiful names and attributes before we ask Him for forgiveness.

[MustafaMc]

Quoting a Christian friend from another communication, "So, atonement enables us to come before God in the first place. And secondly, forgiveness is available for us when we repent and ask (God) for it." This led me to another train of thought while reading Minhaj Al-Muslim. Although this quote is not consistent with my understanding of atonement from growing up as a Christian which is that of 'being washed in the blood of Jesus', it did bring to mind the Muslim concept of 'At-Tawassul'.

According to this book, Tawassul is the means by which "the Muslim draws closer to, and petitions Allah through righteous deeds and good sayings. He asks from Allah, petitioning Him by His Beautiful Names and His High Attributes ... He draws nearer to Allah by performing obligatory Salah, Zakah, Sawm, and Hajj and by performing voluntary deeds." The Qur'an conveys this same meaning in 5:45 ... But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself... and 5:95 ... by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent ...

An important distinct is that these deeds are by the person seeking nearness to Allah and not by the deeds of another as indicated by Minhaj Al-Muslim, "Allah the Almighty did not legislate for His servants to try to get closer to Him by deeds other than their own".

However, according to Sunnipath http://www.sunnipath.com/Library/Art...R00000010.aspx the accepting means of Tawassul are:

1. TAWASSUL through a living righteous person to Allah Most High, as in the hadith of the blind man with the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace);
2. The TAWASSUL of a living person to Allah Most High through his own good deeds, as in the hadith of the three people trapped in a cave by a great stone, a hadith related by Imam Bukhari in his "Sahih;"
3. The TAWASSUL of a person to Allah Most High through His (Allah's) entity (dhat), names, attributes, and so forth.

Point #1 is further expanded in the quote below from this link to include seeking nearness through Prophet Muhammad (saaws) or other righteous people who are not present or even who are dead.

"The Hanafi scholar, Muhammad Hamid says: As for calling upon (nida') the righteous (when they are physically absent, as in the words "O Muhammad" in the above hadiths), tawassul to Allah Most High through them is permissible, the supplication (du'a) being to Allah Most Glorious, and there is much evidence for its permissibility ... And the notion that tawassul is permissible only during the lifetime of the person through whom it is done but not after his death is unsupported by any viable foundation from Sacred Law."

Tawassul through others who are dead seems to approach shirk to me, but the point made above is the supplication is actually to Allah (swt) while the means of approach is through another who is more righteous albeit not present or even dead. I know that the Christian belief about Jesus being God Incarnate is disbelief in the Oneness of Allah (swt), but if they prayed to 'God the Father' with an ending of 'in the name of Jesus' would that not be similar to Tawassul explained above? What about the Christians who use Mary or their various saints as intercessors or intermediaries and a means of approach to God? Is that shirk or is it tawassul?

[Insaanah]

:sl: respected akhi,

With all due respect, I don't understand the connection between tawassul and atonement, or how the Christian concept of atonement would lead one to think of tawassul.

Christian atonement, as Christians see it, refers to the forgiving or pardoning of sin through the death of Jesus (peace be upon him) by crucifixion, which made possible the reconciliation between God and creation, as the relationship between people and God was broken.

In Islam, there has never been a broken relationship between mankind and God, so tawassul doesn't fix anything or make it possible to stand before God. Nor does it atone for sins or have anything to do with sin.

Tawassul linguistically means to come closer to an objective and to gain proximity to a desired goal. In Islamic terms it signifies the act of trying to come closer to Allah through through manners that have been prescribed in the Qur'an and Sunnah. In other words, it is a means of seeking nearness to Allah.

When used in the context of du'aa, it then takes on a more specific meaning. It then refers to seeking a means of having one's du'aa accepted, or increasing the chances of one's du'aa being accepted.

There are a number of ways that have been prescribed Islamically, e.g:

By asking through Allah's names and attributes, e.g. "I ask You by virtue of the fact that none has the right to be worshipped except You, and that You are the only one to hear du'aas, that You... xyz"
By mentioning Allah's favours to you
By mentioning the dire state one is in.
By mentioning the good deeds one has done.
By mentioning the good effect of the du'aa one hopes for e.g. increase me in knowledge so that I can teach others about Islam.
By asking a righteous living person to make du'aa.

But it is not the case that we these somehow atone for something or enable us to stand before God or repair a broken relationship. These just increase the chance of our du'aa being accepted.

Tawassul through the Prophet :saws: is divided into three categories:
By mentioning one's love for the Prophet :saws:. This is allowed, as it comes under tawassul through mentioning one's good deeds.
Through the Prophet's :saws: du'aa while he was alive. This comes under asking a righteous living person to make du'aa.
Through the Prophet :saws: after his death. This is not allowed, at all.
Through the Prophet's :saws: status. There is nothing in the Qur'an or authentic ahadeeth sanctioning this, nor did any of the first three generations of Islam practice this or say it was acceptable, and it should not be done, regardless of whom among later scholars sanctioned it.

Also, sunnipath isn't a reliable source of knowledge on particular matters of aqeedah, as it is not permissible to make tawassul through a dead person, at all, be that person Muhammad :saws:, Mary, Ibrahim :as: or anyone else. This borders on shirk, as you correctly noted. Sunnipath are known for their views that are not in accordance with the mainstream on such matters, in particular the author of that article you linked to is also known for views not in accordance with the majority.

The point made above is the supplication is actually to Allah (swt) while the means of approach is through another who is more righteous albeit not present or even dead

This is not a valid argument. Someone posted a video here where a scholar of the same views as sunnipath declared that one could even make du'aa to Rasoolullah :saws: as long you kept in mind that the one granting the du'aa is Allah!

When you pray through a dead person, you are attributing to them a power which they don't have, you are using them as an intermediary between yourself and God, and your du'aa is no longer exclusively to Allah alone. The argument such people use is as per the quote above. Also, it is important to note that du'aa is a form or worship, so when you make du'aa through a dead person, you are in effect associating that person in the worship of your Lord. The implications of this are very clear, dangerous and frightening, and such practices should be stayed away from, because they insiduously lead one towards the biggest sin of all, while the person thinks that he/she is doing something praiseworthy, and Satan has no better trick then to convince one of that.

What I wrote on Tawassul in du'aa comes from this very good book which I highly recommend, called Du'a, Weapon of the Believer; A treatise on the status and etiquette of du'a in Islam, by Aby Ammaar Yasir Qadhi. It is all based on Qur'an and strong authentic ahadeeth used and applied in their correct contexts, and covers pretty much everything about Du'a:

http://kalamullah.com/Books/Dua%20Th...20Believer.pdf

Tawassul starts on book page 183, Adobe page 182, though have a look at the contents to get a feel for all the different things it covers.

And Allah knows best, and may He save us from approaching all misguidance and from deviating off the straight path, ameen.

[MustafaMc]

Assalamu alaikum, Sister Insaanah,

What you wrote above is exactly consistent with my understanding. I was referring to what the Christian said, "So, atonement enables us to come before God in the first place." when I was making an association with tawassul which you noted as "a means of seeking nearness to Allah". What you wrote about atonement is consistent with my understanding as well in that it is quite different from tawassul.

What you wrote about tawassul is again consistent with my understanding and I thank you for the rebuttal of the response on SunniPath. It indeed makes me uncomfortable to make du'a through anyone who is dead as approaching shirk. To me anything that one thinks has any tint or risk of shirk should be avoided at all costs.

[MustafaMc]

Assalamu alaikum, Sister Insaanah,

I appreciate the link to the download and liked it so much I ordered a hard copy today. I learned that making tawassul through other than what has been prescribed can fall under either shirk or bidah which I had not considered before. I also have a book, Tawassul-Its Types & Rulings by Shaikh Muhammad Naasiruddeen al-Albanee which says the acceptable means of tawassul are by means of 1) the Names of Allah, the Blessed and the Most High, and His Attributes, 2) a righteous action which the person who is supplicating has done, and 3) the supplication made by a righteous (living) man.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc my friend;

Lilly provided the most reasonable explanation and one that is consistent with what I remember from my early years as a Christian in that God is just and therefore requires that sin must be punished.

I was reading one of the proverbs recently which says God’s ways are unsearchable, it seems that God has revealed enough for us to get through this life, but he has not revealed everything about himself to us.

Lilly has provided a good explanation of justice that it requires punishment. If I steal your car, it will be a heap of junk in a hundred years, so the car will have no meaning for me or you in a centuries time. But what does that mean to God?
God can provide you with a greater means of transport for eternity in a good life after death. If I kill my neighbour, I have robbed him of maybe 70 years life on Earth, but God can restore him to a greater good life after death, so what does killing my neighbour mean to God? Yes these crimes deserve punishment, but do they deserve eternal punishment? As atheists often point out, how can justice ever be applied to temporary finite crimes on Earth, compared to any eternal retribution, where is justice?


Here comes this huge contradiction, as well as being just, God is also merciful and forgiving but how do you make truthful sense of justice, punishment, mercy and forgiveness, which is the greatest attribute? I believe that in Islam you are taught you have the right to demand justice, but if you are merciful and forgive, then you have chosen the greater path. Would this be because Allah also advocates mercy and forgiveness as the greater path for himself?


God has the power to say your sins are forgiven, and they would be forgiven, there is no need for any atonement, again this is beyond my understanding because God gave us Christian scriptures saying Christ died so that my sins might be forgiven.

I guess teachers can give us advice from the comfort of their armchair, but how can they pass on a teaching about mercy and forgiveness; if it appears that they themselves have little to be merciful or forgive in their lives. It seems that if anyone was to teach me about forgiveness, it is done in a greater way by life situations that they have experienced themselves. Jesus said many things about mercy and forgiving, but the one teaching that stays with people is Jesus saying on the cross, ‘forgive them Father’ does that include forgiving the people who condemned him to death and those who nailed him to the cross?


The ways of God are beyond my understanding and they keep me searching, I can only say how these scriptures affect me.

In the spirit of striving to me merciful and forgive.

Eric

[MustafaMc]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc my friend;

Peace, the blessings of God and His mercy be upon you, my brother in humanity, Eric. I thank you for your reply.

I was reading one of the proverbs recently which says God’s ways are unsearchable, it seems that God has revealed enough for us to get through this life, but he has not revealed everything about himself to us.

I agree with you. I have recently been pondering over the Names and Attributes of Allah (swt) as revealed in the Qur'an as to whether they have a literal or metaphorical meaning. A literal interpretation ultimately leads to anthropomorphism, or attribution of human characteristics to God, while a metaphorical interpretation ultimately leads to a denial of His attributes to the point one may even start to question God's very existence. I choose to take the middle road between these extremes by accepting the Attributes without understanding the 'how'.

Lilly has provided a good explanation of justice that it requires punishment.

I see that sin is ultimately against our own souls, but they are manifest as trangressions against other people or God's creatures, or they are against God. I believe I am correct in understanding that if we transgress against someone in this life by word or deed and they do not forgive us, then he will personally exact retribution against us on Judgement Day. If we transgress against God by lack of faith, joining partners with Him, or being disobedient, then He can either forgive or punish us. I believe that the Qur'an says Allah will not forgive those who die in a state of unbelief (kufr) or of attributing partners to Him (shirk). I believe that if a person dies with belief in One God, that depending on his deeds and intentions he will either go directly to Paradise, to Hell, or to the Heights in between. If a believer is sent to Hell, I believe he will eventually be taken out, but the kafir or mushrik will not be. This is how I understand the justice part, but I do not deny Allah's (swt) ability to have mercy on whomsoever He pleases, even to the point of forgiveness because a person gave a thirsty dog some water.

Here comes this huge contradiction, as well as being just, God is also merciful and forgiving but how do you make truthful sense of justice, punishment, mercy and forgiveness, which is the greatest attribute? I believe that in Islam you are taught you have the right to demand justice, but if you are merciful and forgive, then you have chosen the greater path. Would this be because Allah also advocates mercy and forgiveness as the greater path for himself?

This brought to mind this hadith, Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "When Allah created the Creation, He wrote in His Book--and He wrote (that) about Himself, and it is placed with Him on the Throne--'Verily My mercy overcomes My Anger.'"

God has the power to say your sins are forgiven, and they would be forgiven, there is no need for any atonement, again this is beyond my understanding because God gave us Christian scriptures saying Christ died so that my sins might be forgiven.

I understand how Christians accept the Bible as God's inspired Word, but do the scriptures quote Jesus saying this? It brings to mind a lecture I heard by a Christian, Les Feldick, about 'Paul's Gospel'. He pretty much reiterated what William Newell wrote over 50 years ago. I can't remember if I have referred this to you before, but you may be interested in reading his writing at http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispen/newell.htm

It seems that if anyone was to teach me about forgiveness, it is done in a greater way by life situations that they have experienced themselves. The ways of God are beyond my understanding and they keep me searching, I can only say how these scriptures affect me.

I agree that there is much beyond our understanding. I find that my interactions here helps me to grow as I consider the perspective of others, particularly Christians. Likewise, I am hopeful that our interactions have been beneficial to you in understanding my faith.

I am reminded of Qur'an 5:82 Verily, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) the Jews and those who are Al-Mushrikun and you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: "We are Christians." That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud.