How I became Muslim

[Ramadhan]

This is a great story with fascinating detailed interfaith dialogue of someone who was on his journey to Islam. I thought this is great to share with muslims and non-muslims.

How I became Muslim

A must read testimony for every Muslim and non-Muslim
By S. Ghaffan
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent the Merciful
I was born of staunch Catholic Christian parents. My father was a preacher who knew the Bible almost by heart my mother, an orthodox Catholic, would only give us the morning coffee after her return from Church. Even from my youngest days, I was made to memorize certain verses from the Bible. By the time I had completed the study of all the four Gospels and knew many important verses, in those four books, by heart.

My father sometimes took me along with him when he went to preach, and from the special attention he paid to my knowing certain controversial points, and his teaching me the methods of explaining to the others those intricacies, it was quite obvious that he wanted me to succeed him in his profession. The strong desire of the paternal love to make me a priest was implemented by educating me with a detailed knowledge of the Bible and the science of ministering it to others. By the time I reached the Form IV in school I could preach the gospels in my own way, supervised by my father. Many senior missionaries admired my knowledge of the important doctrines of the faith. I passed the Form VI and joined College. There I came in contact with several classmates who were Protestants, and some of whom were well versed in the study of the Protestant Bible.

I often met my Protestant classmates and discussed matters regarding differences in our faith and the performance of rituals. There were also some Muslim students, but I met them only in the play ground as I hated meeting Muslims whom I took to be dangerous fanatics. By the time I completed the first year in College, I was sufficiently grounded in the knowledge of the Christian faith as held by the Catholic Church and had also considerable knowledge of the Protestant view point. Appreciating this knowledge of the Catholic faith in my young age I was given a scholarship from the church funds and in return for the help I received, I was required to receive special coaching in the guidance of deeper thoughts about certain parts of the Holy Book, under of the Chief Priest of the Church who loved to teach me very much and was very intimately attached to me. He used the special devotional methods of worshiping Jesus and his Holy Mother. Having appeared in the first group for my intermediate course I used to sit working at his subjects till late at night.

One night when all were asleep and I was absorbed in my studies an idea suddenly struck my mind to examine the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, the Basic formula of the Christian faith. The question, how three different things can be one and the same, arose in my mind i.e. how anything singularly absolute in its unity with its indivisible oneness, can ever by itself become divided into three separate beings with three variant native attributes opposed to each other justifying the distribution into the three different entities.

My failure to reconcile my belief in the Trinity with the reasoning of the science of logic, created a mental restlessness in me. Days passed on and many a time I thought of asking my father to help me in solving the problem which was puzzling my mind. But I knew that my father would never appreciate the least doubt in the dogmatic belief of the Catholic School and my venture to discuss anything hated by the Catholic faith, would only create further problems in my domestic life. However, one day when I found my father in a happy mood, I asked him as to how he would defend the Christian faith in the Holy Trinity against the attacks from the members of the other religions of the world. The answer was:

"In matters of faith one has to stop reasoning. One should belief in the doctrine only by one's heart and mind."
This reply from my father upset me further more and disappointed me to a very great extent and all my thinking got centered in the question which had become a definite problem to puzzle my mind further and I wondered saying:
"What! Is this the Foundation upon which is built the huge edifice of the Christian faith? Is the basis of my own faith only a matter of a blind following of some dictated belief which can never stand reasoning or the independent scrutiny by the dispassionate and impartial arguments from the clean conscience?"
I became much worried and made up my mind to find some arguments to somehow make my much disturbed mind at least imagine that one could at one and the same time be three different persons, and the three different persons could at the same time remain one.

[Ramadhan]

One day our Mathematics Professor was sitting alone in his room and I got in with his permission and asked him if he would help me to solve something which to me was an intricate and a perplexing problem. He very kindly asked me what it was. I told him to explain to me in what sense one and the same person could be three different beings, and the same three different beings with their individual differences could at the same time be the indivisible absolute one?
The Professor smiled and said:
"Is it that you do not like my stay in this college?"
I asked him: "Why Sir?"
He said: "What do you think the college authorities which are staunch Catholics will do with me, if some one informs them that I discuss in my private room things opposed to the Catholic or the Christian faith in general? Will they keep me on the staff of the College any longer? If you want to discuss anything here, you may do so but mind you, you must confine your discussion to the subject of your studies in the College, otherwise you will be doing the worst harm to me for I will be thrown out of my job."
I felt the truth in his statement and made an appointment with him to see him the next Sunday at 3.00 pm in his house. On Sunday when I met the Professor he first asked me as to what made me enquire into the Doctrine of Trinity. I said that I wanted to know how far the doctrine stood to reasoning.
The Professor smiled and said, "Why don't you ask any one of our priests?"
I said, "I have asked them but they say it is a matter of belief or faith and it should not be subjected to any logic or philosophy. This has upset me. It has raised the question in me, if what I believe in, is unreasonable and illogical, why should I subject myself to any blind following? Is God so unjust and cruel to expect man to believe in a doctrine about Himself, which no human brain can ever reasonably conceive? I request you, Sir; to some how give me some method of arguing out the possibility of such an existence as the doctrine of Trinity wants us to believe in!"
The professor smiled and said: "My dear Joseph suppose you want me to prove by some mathematical formula how water can remain water and at the same time be fire, or how a stone can be a stone at the same time be water too, how can I do it? I do not think any sensible man on earth can ever conceive such a possibility. How the Ever living God who being the Ever living Life itself, can also at the same time be a mortal i.e. be a man to suffer death at the hands of the other mortals? And how the same mortal being at the same time could be the Absolute Immortal God? It is a problem which our priests want us to believe and we have to merely believe in it and none has any choice of even questioning the practicability of this inconceivable dogma."
On hearing the answer I asked him: "Then, what about you, Sir? Don't you also believe in it?"
He replied: "It is a matter of my own personal and individual choice and decision. Even if I or the world, were to believe in such a doctrine the liability still remains for every believer to answer the question if he or she can prove the doctrine as a reasonable or practical phenomena."
He went on saying: "The fact is when God, Whom we believe as One, is Absolutely One Being in His perfect unity, it means that God is singularly one in natural essence of His existence, free from any different or variant factors having anything to do with His pure or Absolute Unity to justify His being The Absolute One, owing an indivisible existence, by Himself. Division suggests that the one is not an Absolute One, but a compound of some variants and that which is a composed being can never be really one in the true meaning of oneness. And certainly the one dependent in its existence upon its different components can never be independent in its action, whereas God is the Absolute One, Independently Omnipotent in His Will and His Action."
"Besides how can any three which are three separate beings, with three variations justify their being three separate entities, remain there separately as they are and at the same time by themselves lose their different individual native properties differentiating them from each other, and become conceivably the absolute indivisible one, without the least variation in the essential oneness."
"An Absolute one must be totally independent in its existence, Mr. Joseph, as it impossible to reason out the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. The science of Mathematics or any other science which any human genius can ever conceive, until the end of time, can never solve this inconceivable riddle."

[Ramadhan]

He continued: "The only thing is that we, Christians, are shut out of the vast sources of knowledge about the truth and of the higher factors in matters of religion which are available outside our own fold, by ****ing every non-Christian as the devil's work. We Christians, Mr. Joseph, in our madness to swell up our ranks have played such a disgraceful role that a great head like Sir Dennison Ross had to helplessly disclose the truth about this in his foreword to the translation of the Quran by George Sale."
I was amazed to hear the arguments of the Professor who was himself known as a Catholic, and at the same time I was very much encouraged to know that my doubt about the unreasonability of the doctrine of Trinity was something which had made a highly educated and enlightened mind like the Professor of Mathematics also to enquire into it. I was much benefited by the discussion with the Professor as I came to know arguments justifying the doubt created in my mind.
My study of the matter in the Islamic Literature, and the translation of the Quran opened my eyes to many great and very important factors that effect human life on earth. Once I visited the Professor in his house and to my further amazement I found him possessing a great amount of literature on Islam.
I asked him:
"May I know, Sir, if you have embraced the faith of the Muslims?"
He replied:
"It is a question yet to be decided. You do not worry yourself about my personal choice. I, for the time being, want to be known as no other than a Catholic Christian. I will tell you later."
I took the copy of the translation of the Quran by George Sale and read the introduction by Sir E. Dennison Ross. The introduction needs to be read with special attention. Sir Ross says:
"For many centuries the acquaintance which the majority of Europeans possessed of Muhammadanism was based almost entirely on distorted reports of fanatical Christians which led to the discrimination of a multitude of gross calumnies. What was good in Muhammadanism was entirely ignored and what was not good in the eyes of Europe was exaggerated or misinterpreted. "
"The unity of God and that the simplicity of his creed was probably a more potent factor in the spread of Islam than the sword of the Ghaziz." (G. Sale's translation of the Koran - Introduction)
This statement of the great Christian scholar of international repute, created in me the thirst to know the original teachings of Islam, especially about the Islamic conception of God.
About four years passed away, and by this time I knew the contents of the Quran. Many things had arrested my special attention. I had discussed many doubtful points with the Professor whom I found to have read the Quran several times with a better and more critical view. I was now longing to meet some Muslim scholar to cross-examine him about certain doubts about the Islamic faith.
Once I thought of Hinduism but what I saw daily with my own eyes, curses of untouchability and the reservations of the caste system prevalent before us, and besides everything else, the idol worship and the observance of innumerable rituals did not prompt me to take up any enquiry into the tenets, the practice of which manifested in the daily life of the millions of Hindus living with us. I could never understand the superiority exclusively and arbitrarily claimed for the members of certain castes, simply because they had accidentally been born in those folds. I had seen with my own eyes how the people belonging to certain castes are imagined as lower in the society and are treated as the untouchables, not allowed even to enter into the Hindu temples. I had seen these poor souls being prohibited even to take drinking water from the wells reserved for the superior classes.
I met several Brahmin Pundits but none of them could answer any one of my objections against the several Hindu theories regarding the authorities of the hundreds of gods and goddesses and the observance of the rituals which did not appeal to me in the least.
The havoc in the social life played by Hinduism dividing humanity into castes and sub-castes and the unreasonable superiority of one caste over the other, is itself so much repulsive that none would like to take any trouble of executing any studies about the doctrines of the faith.
While resenting the caste system and the sectarian segregation in the Hindu folds, I was automatically reminded of the similar restrictions amongst Christians. Caste hatred has been sunk so deep in the minds of the Hindus that even after entering Christianity they are unable to overcome the complex.
I asked myself: "Why criticize other people and their belief when the religion which I myself belong to, has in it the sectarian segregation of the Brahmin Christian, the Naidu Christian, the Chuckli Christian and similar sectarian differences, having full sway over the social order? Are not churches in Christendom owned exclusively for the members of particular sects? Are there not churches belonging to a particular sect which cannot be used by the people of the other sect? Has not Christianity failed to unite mankind into one human society? Did Jesus preach all these differences and dissensions which we the Christians have innovated? Is it not then that we are far away from the original objects of the Mission of Jesus Christ?"
Against the irreconcilable differences and the innumerable dissensions of the social order in the folds of Hinduism and Christianity, I was very much impressed by the genuine and the real brotherhood practiced day and night among the Muslims. I found that a Muslim mosque is a mosque belonging to every one who calls himself a Muslim and that there is no reservation of seats in the mosque or any sectarian segregation in any of the Muslim places of worship. I saw with my own eyes, Muslims of all ranks, all social and economic status, of different complexions, of various nationalities, all standing in one row, turning towards one direction, praying to one God, in one language, and immediately after the prayer, shaking hands with each other. Brotherhood or social equality claimed more in theory by the other schools of thought in the world; I found it to be an ever experienced, and a living reality in the daily life of the Islamic folds.

[Ramadhan]

One day I was informed by the Professor who by this time had become an intimate friend of mine that a Muslim scholar was to deliver some talks in English on the life of the Prophet of Islam in a Hall near the Big Juma Mosque, under the auspices of the Muslim Youth Association of Trichinopoly Town. My Professor and I, both attended the three talks and met the Lecturer who was an old friend of the Professor. We had a heart to heart talk with the Lecturer about several important topics. The Lecturer presented to me a few more back numbers of the magazine 'The Peace Maker.'
"And as for Ishmael I have heard thee, Behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly, Twelve Princes shall he beget and I will make him a great nation." (Genesis 17:20)
During my meeting with the Muslim Lecturer I asked him if he would kindly answer some questions for my own information. He said:
"I will most willingly do it."
I put the following questions which he very cheerfully answered:
"What proofs have you besides the Quran to establish that Muhammad was truly a Prophet of God?"
He answered: "Have your own Bible with you?" I said, "Yes."
He took the following verses and read them to me one after another:
"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise unto you of your brethern, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you." (Acts 3:22)
"And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that Prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." (Acts 3:23)
"Yea! And all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days." (Acts 3:24)
"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A Prophet shall the Lord raise up unto you of your brethern, like unto me; him shall ye hear." (Acts 7:37)
In John Jesus says:
"I will pray the Father, and he shall give another comforter - that he may abide with you forever." (John 14:16)
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye can not bear them now." (John 16:12)
"Howbeit, when he the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you unto all truth for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; he will show you things to come." (John 16:13)
I read the passages which I had already gone through several times before, but this time the perfect confidence with which the Lecturer asked me to read the verses from my own sacred scriptures in support of his claim, threw a new light upon them for me to understand the matter dispassionately. Yet I replied:
"But the prophecy is about the advent of Jesus?"
He smiled and said:
"You read the verse again! Does not the verse say that God will raise a Prophet like unto Moses" i.e. He will be a man born of a father and a mother as was born Moses; whereas Jesus was born only of a mother. Besides, the Prophet promised by God must be a man like Moses but you yourself call Jesus as the son of God. Moses was a law giving Prophet and the one like him must also be a law-giver, whereas Jesus was only a law-abider, following the law or the Ten Commandments already introduced through Moses. Besides, one must betray his common sense as well as his learning to say that, I and He, the two different person i.e. The First and the Third person mean the same, or the one who departs prophesying about the advent of some one else, to be one and the same."
The argument was quite reasonable and unbreakable. Then I asked the Lecturer:
"Do you not believe in Jesus as the son of God? Cannot Jesus be God himself in the form of a man?"
The Lecturer smiled and very cheerfully replied:
"Can there be a son to any one without a wife, my friend? Can anyone, or you yourself, who believes in the sonship of Jesus, at any time sensibly imagine Virgin Marry to have been used by God as a wife was done to conceive an issue? Let us seek protection of God against any such devilish straying of our minds. Sonship, if used in the Bible, can be used only to mean a creature or the one who has received life from God. Otherwise what do you say about Jesus addressing himself as a son of man?
"The son of man is come eating and drinking and ye say, behold a gluttenous man, and a wine biber, a friend of publicans and sinners." (Luke 7:34)
"The son of man be ashamed." (Luke 9:26)
"Jesus addressed God as his father and also as our father which means that God is taken as the father of Jesus as much as He is the father (or the Creator) of any one of us, and hence Jesus' sonship can mean in the sense of a creature of God, the term son of God used by Jesus can be used only in sense of a servant of God - as Jesus himself refers to himself as God's servant. This fact is testified by the verses by which every prophet of God until Adam has been termed as the son of God in Luke 3rd Chapter in verses from to 30 Jesus is called as the son of Joseph and the genealogy of Joseph is traced to Adam and Adam is called the son of God. Read the 30th verse of the same chapter."
"Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." (Luke 3:37)
(These ready answers from the Bible created a very deep impression upon my mind about the mount of comparative study the Muslims do and how strong and reasonable they are in their faith about Unity of God. One can say that the faith of the Muslims is not a matter of mere blind following of any prescribed belief in unreasonable dogmas but it is the result of a sincere comparative study of the various schools of though.)

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[Ramadhan]

I asked the Lecturer:
"Do you Muslims study every other religion before you embrace Islam?"
The lecturer replied:
"No. Even as we remain Muslim, born of Muslim parents, we have been commanded by God to compare and contrast the truth, i.e. Islam, with every other faith and then own for ourselves a belief or conviction of our own which alone shall be acceptable to God as mere blind following of any particular doctrine, be that from our own parents, will not be of any credit to such a believer. Read what the Holy Quran enjoins upon those who have already professed Islam as their faith merely by heredity."
I asked:
"Do you believe in the Holy Bible as a Heavenly Book or not?"
In reply to my question the Lecturer requested me to answer the following questions:
1) "Is the Bible, which is in your hands, the book which Jesus wrote as a scripture revealed by God or to be called the book of his own?"
I had to say, "No."
2) "Did Jesus order or desire at any time in his life to write anything on his behalf?"
"No."
3) "Was this Bible which is in your hands written during the time of Jesus?"
"No."
4). "Was this Bible which is in your hands today written immediately after the departure of Jesus?"
"No."
"Then" he said, "Please read page 17 in 'The Founder of Christianity and His Religion' published by the Christian Literature Society, Madras. It is said in the Book:
The whole Bible contains sixty six books written by forty different authors over a space of about fifteen centuries.
It is clearly said in the book that:
'Jesus Christ himself wrote nothing.'
Oral teaching was for several years - the only means employed in the spread of Christianity. It was for the guidance of those young converts, that the earliest writings of the New Testament were composed."
The same book further discloses that:
"They were probably written about twenty years after the death of Christ."
On page 18 it is stated:
"The Gospels do not give a complete history of the Life of Christ, they are rather memoirs."
I said:
"But the Bible is the word of God inspired and written by the disciples of Jesus."
He again smiled and said:
"Mr. Joseph, if the Bible is the Book of the disciples and of Jesus, how would you account for the differences in the Book, if it is an inspired word of God. Does not the Catholic Bible Duay contain some books which the Protestant version does not own? Have you read what Mr. Wilson says about the Bible, in his introduction to the 'Diaglot' published by the Watch Tower Society?":
"If it had not been published by kingly authority it would not now be venerated by English and American Protestants, as thought it had come direct from Cod. It has been convicted of containing over 20,000 errors. Nearly 700 Creeks MSS. are now known and some of them very ancient whereas the translator of the common version had only the advantage of some 8 MSS none of which was earlier then the tenth century."
"Is not the Bible based upon only 8 manuscripts whereas there are 700 manuscripts now available? If what is contained in all such manuscripts is also the inspired word of God, why were these manuscripts left away? In view of all these facts brought to your light, if you still believe in the Bible as the inspired word of God, you may do so but you can't expect the whole world to do it. If you make a serious and an impartial study of the Old and the New Testaments, you will find in them the amount of blasphemies which the Jewish mind has fabricated against Lot , David, Noah and Abraham who were the Holy Apostles of God viz:
"And Noah began to be a husbandman, and he planted a vineyard. And he drank of the vine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan , saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two breathren without. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness." (Gen. 9:20-23)
"Lot committing adultery with his own daughters." (Gen. 19:36)
"David taking possession of his neighbor's wife." (II. Sam, 11:4)
I asked, "What? Do you Muslims believe in the prophets of God other than Muhammad to be totally sinless and holy?"
He answered me by reciting to me the following verses of the Holy Quran:
"Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. " (Quran 2:136)
"The Apostle (Muhammad) believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and so do the believers, (i.e. Muslims) they all believe in Allah (God) and his angels, His book (the different holy scriptures) and His Apostles; we make no difference between any of His apostles."

[Ramadhan]

The following verse of the Holy Quran informs us of the fact that Prophets were raised by God, among all nations in all parts of the earth:
"There is not a nation but a Warner has gone among them." (Quran 35:24)
It convinced me that Islam alone, is an all comprehensive faith which recognizes all other religions and which contains in it a perfectly harmonious integration of all the good, found partly in the other religious orders of the world. The sacred book of Islam i.e. the Holy Quran, is the final exposition of the Divine Truth in its Perfection which was revealed at different times, through the other heavenly scriptures, in parts suiting the various evolutionary levels.
The above verses of the Holy Quran bear clear of conception by the human minds. The limitation testimony to the, fact that, as one of the fundamentals of the human mind of the different ages, did not of his Faith, every Muslim has to believe not only allow even prophets like Jesus to speak out the whole in the Holy Prophet Muhammad but in all the other of the truth. Jesus had to depart with many things prophets as truthful and holy and should not make yet to be told to his people. (John. 16:14). Jesus had to tell his people to wait until the advent of the Spirit of Truth to disclose the whole of the Truth. (John 16:13)
I was further impressed by the Universal aspect of the religion Islam.
Every answer from the Lecturer was with an unchallengeable authority and with an unbreakable argument. I was awakened to differentiate between genuine truth and the fabrications of falsehood and to know many new factors to which I was blind all these years. But I did not know how to reconcile the dawn of true knowledge of truth with my original blind dogmatic belief and my belonging to the Christian faith any longer. I wanted to find out some failure on the part of the Lecturer to answer satisfactorily some questions or the other, so that I may have some excuse, be that even a false one, to maintain my position in the Christian faith.
The Lecturer continued after some time with the question:
"Shall I ask you something if you do not mind answering it for my information? "
I said: "Yes".
He asked: "Do you think Jesus to be a son of God or God himself?"
I said: "Jesus, according to the Christian belief is God Himself in the form of His Son."
He asked: "Can you ever conceive anyone to be the immortal God and at the same time be a mortal (Man) to be caught in the hands of other mortals to suffer death? Can anything be high and at the same time low, black and at the same time be white? Can there be darkness and the same time light? What philosophy is this?"
The Lecturer continued saying:
"Do you ever consider that there is one other question confronting the doctrine of the Trinity which needs to be answered by every Trinitarian that if any three different beings which are three different entities, are also at the same time One, with absolute unity in all the perfect sense or meaning of Oneness, what is the common control which makes them remain three and also be one at one and the same time? If there be any factor of such a wonderful and inconceivable phenomena causing this amazing effect, then that supreme causative power, which controls the number and the unity, will alone be the Omnipotent God and not any one of the three which are only the controlled components."
"Besides, there arises another problematic question which a believer in the Trinity will have to answer i.e. as to whom is that controls or determines the splitting of one into only three different others, to be neither more nor less in number? There must be some cause for this controlled effect and that the causative factor acting supreme over three will be the Omnipotent God and not any one of the three which will only be the effect of the supreme controlling cause."
"Similarly, will arise the question, what is the causative power which affects the three to be only one when joining together and not divided into many groups of beings and if there be any such cause, that supreme controlling cause will be the Omnipotent God and not anyone of the three which will only be the subservient one."
"Under any circumstances no sensible man can ever reasonably believe in any effect whatsoever without some causative factor effecting it."
"However the Holy Trinity is only a problematic doctrine created by the Christian Church which no logical reasoning can ever prove true."
I had to helplessly agree to the views of the Lecturer for I could not now reasonably believe in the existence of anything being itself and at the same time being its own opposite.
"I would like you, Mr. Joseph" said the Lecturer, "to ponder a little over the belief that Jesus being God Himself or the son of God, was so terrified at the impending crucifixion that he shouted:
"Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachthani" (My God, My God, hast thou forsaken me?) (Matthew 27:46)
"What philosophy is that? If Jesus was God Himself, does it mean that God was forsaken by God Himself and can that be God who felt hopeless and shouted to be rescued?
"Your Bible itself, Mr. Joseph, reports that the son of God was forsaken by his father (God) in which case the forsaken son automatically and quite naturally forfeits his personal merits as a son and his relationship of being a son to his father. What do you say? Of what profitable use can the attachment to a forsaken son be? Mr. Joseph, please tell me."
I was struck dumb - I did not know what to say and what to do with the faith I already possessed as a staunch Christian.
"Besides," the Lecturer continued: "Do you think Jesus to be God Himself when he falls down crying, praying to someone else to remove the cup of death by crucifixion? "
I asked: "Alright Sir, how do you reconcile the violence used by the Prophet of Islam to his being an Apostle of God?"
Immediately came the reply from the Lecturer: "Please, Mr. Joseph, quote a single instance from the whole life history of the Holy Prophet Muhammad to show that he has ever committed any unprovoked aggression or any single instance of his taking the least initiative in attacking any single soul. Each expedition of a battle he led or he allowed was only in self-defense. Had he not defended as he did, today his advent in this world and his teachings about the truth about God which the world has learnt only through his holy mission, would have become legends of ancient times full of blasphemies for you and for me, only to be read in story books and thus be deluded by falsehood for all times. The Bible does not preach self-defense. The Bible only preaches self-surrender to the extent of handing over everything of one's possession when anything which was in one's hand has been taken away by any aggressor. Does any Christian power follow this?"
"Apart from the political history of the Christian nations of Europe do you not remember the inhuman methods employed by Christendom to spread its faith?"

[Ramadhan]

I was ashamed to hear what has been reported and I had to listen quietly to the records of the disgraceful conduct of the Christians. I, at last, ventured to ask one more question, "There is the doctrine of atonement or expiation of sins of men through the blood of Jesus. Jesus having paid the price of the sins of man i.e. he who believes in Jesus is cleansed and saved. Have you any such accommodation in Islam?"
The Lecturer smiled and replied: "My friend, the greatest of God's gifts to man is common sense. If man forfeits it of his own accord, then none can help him."
"First let me know if this doctrine appeals to reason and common sense. A, for example, a Christian by faith i.e. a believer in Jesus Christ as his Savior, plunders the house of B and the members of B's family. Does sense or logic agree to A being let off unpunished by any law, particularly the Law of the All Just Lord of the Universe, simply because A accepts Jesus as his Savior?"
I had to say, "No". Because, to say otherwise would mean I forfeit my common sense and go against reasoning.
He continued:
"There is one very grave aspect of the doctrine of atonement through the blood of Jesus i.e. when we pay for a thing, the thing becomes our own and the previous owner of the thing forfeits all his claim over it for the price he has already received. Is it not?"
I said, "Yes".
Then he said:
"If the sins of man have been paid for, God has no right to punish any sinner every sinner who merely believes in Jesus would be free to do anything in the world which his brutal passion dictates him to do, for God his Lord has no right whatsoever even to question any sinner, for Jesus has met the cost of all his sins. Can this ever be sensible logic or common sense? Can this doctrine help life on earth to continue for one moment in peace and security?"
He continued: "Please remember, Islam wants every individual to be kept bound by his being answerable with his individual responsibility to virtue against vice, in the interest of his own individual life as well as the interest of the collective life in this world, himself as a member of not only the human race but also of the creation of the Lord as a whole. Islam continuously invites and encourages man towards righteousness with the promise of the blissful life in the hereafter and repeatedly warns him against vice and the consequent chastisement from the All-just Lord. The Holy Quran repeatedly warns saying:
"And be on your guard against a day when one soul shall not avail another in the least, neither shall intercession on its behalf be accepted nor shall they be helped." (2:28)
"Whoever goes aright, for his own soul does he go aright; and whoever goes astray, to its detriment only does he goes astray; nor can the bearer of a burden bear the burden of another, nor do we chastise until we raise an apostle." (17:15)
"O ye men! Surely we have created you of a male and female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty) surely Allah is knowing, Aware." (49:13)
"While threatening man with grievous punishment in recompense for his evils, the Holy Quran discloses also the infinite mercy of the All-Merciful Lord who does not want man, however, much a sinner the individual be, to be totally dejected or hopeless of the merciful pardon from Him. The only condition for the pardon he needs, being the sinner's repentance against his vices, with his intention of amending his conduct in the future, and turning whole heartedly to obedience and gratitude to the All-Merciful Lord for His Infinite Grace."
"For goodness sake, tell me, Mr. Joseph, which do you think is reasonable and sensible, either making man intoxicated and careless against sinning, i.e. making him unreasonably confident of the price of his sins as having already been paid by someone or alerting with his commitment to virtue against vice, i.e. keeping him warned of the natural consequence of getting punishment by the All-Just Lord, against any misconduct or disobedience? "
I felt that I had that day understood the hollowness of the doctrine of atonement upon which is built the whole edifice of the Christian faith. The divine mercy of the Lord dawned upon my heart, a new light of the divine guidance. I thanked God for liberating me from the clutches of the grossly misleading dogmatic doctrine and leading me to Islam which I have myself found through an impartial enquiry that it is the Right and the Straight Royal Road to Salvation which the All-Merciful Lord Himself has shown man through this Last Apostle Muhammad, may peace be on Him and his divinely chosen descendants.
When I disclosed my acceptance of the true arguments advanced by the Lecturer and thanked him, he told me:
"Mr. Joseph! You must thank God for blessing you with the fulfillment of His merciful promise to every sincere seeker of truth!"
The All-Merciful Lord by His infinite mercy has fulfilled His merciful promise to give mankind the everlasting guidance through the Holy Prophet Muhammad who would abide in his guidance for all times. (John 16:14)
In Muhammad was fulfilled the divine promise for the Prophet, and the promise of the Lord to raise Twelve Princes in the seed of Ishmael was fulfilled in God's raising the Twelve Holy Imams in the family of the Holy Prophet Muhammad who is the divinely chosen issue of Ishmael.
"And as for Ishmael I have heard thee, Behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly, Twelve Princes shall he beget and I will make him a great nation." (Gen. 17:20)
All these Holy Imams were of the purest character and of an undoubtedly godly conduct and though they never received any education from any other mortal in this world, all of them, like the Holy Prophet Muhammad, were the wonderful stores and the Divinely caused fountainheads of knowledge to enlighten the world with the true knowledge about the Lord of the Universe.
Eleven of these Twelve divinely commissioned Imams or Guides lived as the perfect models of pure humanity in complete resignation to the Divine Will and all of them were martyred. If any one wants to see a perfect model of a man surrendering his all, most willingly suffering the worst and the most painful affections in the way of the Lord severed, one must see the Holy Imam Hussain at Karbala.
The world will find Hussain not shouting, "Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachthani. "
Or desiring in the least the removal of the cup of death, but drinking it cheerfully, glorifying the Lord in his last thanks-giving prayers while he was being butchered in the most heartless way.
As the promise of God to give mankind a Prophet to abide for ever has been recorded in the Old Testament this Great Sacrifice has also been prophesied in, Jeremiah 46:10 "For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries; and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiated and made drunk with their blood; for Lord God of Hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates."
After coming across so many sane and unbreakable arguments against the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and also about many other fundamentals of Christian belief, I only wondered how such an unreasonable faith could attract such a huge number of people in the world. Once I found my father returning home very happy and immediately as he arrived he called me and said:
"You will be glad to know my dear son that, today I got 109 souls into our fold. At the baptism of such a big number in one day the Rev. Father, the Chief of Our Mission praised my services very much and has increased my salary as well my traveling allowance and has awarded me with a token reward of Rs. 109 corresponding to the number baptized through my efforts."
I asked: "Who are they, father, who were baptized today?"
The reply was: "They are from five surrounding villages. There are men, women, and children, 109 souls together."
I asked: "Are they all educated?"
The reply was: "No. They are the poor people of the cherries (slums). They are only laborers in the paddy fields of their villages."
I asked if they had understood fully their undertaking as converts to the Christian faith. Would every one of them stand any cross examination against their decision to leave the folds they were in, and their joining the Christian belief?
The reply was: "What do you mean? I told you they are all uneducated poor illiterates; laborers from the slums. The group consists of men, women, and children. Now, I will have to go there every day and coach them up in the doctrine of our faith."
On hearing this I smiled, and seeing me smiling my father asked: "Why do you smile, Joseph? What is the matter?"

[Ramadhan]

I said: "Nothing father! I do not see in this mass conversion, any matter of pride or pleasure which any true religion or any genuine or reasonable faith can claim for itself, for it is nothing but exploiting the illiteracy and ignorance of the poor laborers. It is leading the mentally blind ones into something which they neither know nor recognize. Do you think father that any sensible man can reasonably be proud over his getting some illiterate men, women and children to accept his own ideals and justifiably claim the least merit or value to his thoughts?"
"While the entry into a faith like Islam is effected only after a detailed study and enquiry by the learned ones with perfect conviction, we Christians pride over our success in swelling up our ranks by mass conversions of illiterate laborers, who, by circumstances, are forced to accept the Christian doctrines without knowing what they do is right or wrong? An ignorant mind is like a blank sheet, one can draw upon it whatever one's fancy chooses and once the inscription is made to be settled upon such raw material, any artist can pride over the plate having any particular design of his own. If today to win the sympathy of the ignorant masses, we boast before our illiterate converts of our humanity and self sacrifices in the cause of the spread of our faith, will the outer world also forget the Edict of Milan, father, and will all the records of the history of the brutal outrages that Christendom committed against the poor helpless Jews, in its own passionate eagerness and anxiety to swell its ranks, all together totally vanish?"
I continued: "If you kindly permit me father, I would like to know from you if this Bible in your hands is to be merely read memorized and preached to the others or is it to be acted upon in our daily life? If it is to be acted upon will you kindly show me father, if the Christian world could ever practice the principle of turning the other cheek also if one is already smitten? Could any sincere Christian till now, give away his shirt when his coat was taken away?
Will you, father, surrender our whole house if any body invades our residence and takes possession of any of the rooms in these premises? If the Christian powers of the world really believe in this doctrine of self surrender, why do they maintain their military and the police forces? Kindly tell me, father, if there is any earthly use of merely believing in any golden ideals which can only adorn the pages of some books and which can only be preached but never practiced. Why should we not reasonably accept the doctrine of self-defense taught by Islam and the principle of pardoning our offenders if they are repentant? For goodness sake let me know, father, how can three different ones at the same time be an absolute one, both numerically and also in the essential nature of perfect unity? On what reasonable grounds can the one who is forsaken by God, be God Himself and if Jesus is to be believed as the son of God what claim to the relationship with his father can a forsaken son have?"
"What right has Christendom to claim any truth in it when its spread was caused by the inhuman atrocities committed by the Christian forces against the poor helpless Jews? The conduct of the brutal outrages committed in the holy name of Christ, has been fully reported even by the Christian authorities on Edict of Milan and by the world renowned Christian Scholar Gibbon in his famous work, 'The Decline and the Fall of the Roman Empire ."
"The Doctrine of Atonement through the blood of Christ, will naturally attract those sinner who have sinned and who do not want to give up sinning under the protection of the doctrine that the price of their sins has already been paid away and however much worst sinners they themselves choose to be, they will not in the least be chastised for their heinous crimes, for, after Jesus having paid away for the sins of man, God must have forfeited His claim to punish the sinners thereafter."
There are many such things father which need a dispassionate study and an impartial judgment.
"I tell you father, that whatever be the consequences and whatever misfortune may afflict me, I as one, have decided not to sell away or forfeit my conscience and common sense to the belief in such unreasonable dogmatic doctrines. I have embraced Islam, and if you do not get angry with me and kindly allow me to explain to you the details of my enquiries, I will do it whenever I am wanted to do so I do not like any thought or belief of mine to be swallowed by anyone by force, for the religion Islam, which I now openly declare to have embraced, enjoins that there shall not be any compulsion in the matter of faith as the truth has been revealed against falsehood."
To my utter surprise I found my father fully attentive to exposing my personal views and convictions and at the end he said:
"Son! Do not think that your father is a fool I have been occasionally confronted with such ideas during my life whenever I had the occasion of discussing religion with my Muslim friends. But today the sincerity and the boldness with which you expose your own convictions make me bold to decide about the matter. I shall tell you later but, for God's sake keep this matter strictly confined to you. Otherwise be sure we will be thrown out into the street as destitute."
A few days later my father had a long talk and he decided to declare himself a Muslim. The details of our sufferings and the social persecution we had to pass through is a history by itself.
I, now, for the information and guidance of every seeker after Truth, openly declare the actual findings of my sincere enquiry that Islam is not only the last of the mighty religions which had revolutionized the world and changed the destinies of nations, but it is also the perfect and all inclusive faith which contains in itself all the good, found partly in all other religions which had preceded it. One of the most distinguishing and striking characteristics of Islam is that it requires of its followers to believe that all the religions of the world that preceded it were revealed by God for the respective people of those ages.
It is one of the fundamentals of this faith that its followers must believe in all the Prophets who were sent into the world before the Holy Prophet MUHAMMAD as truthful and sinless.
Muhammad is the name of the Holy Prophet through whom all this comprehensive Faith was revealed in its complete or perfect form and meaning, for humanity as a whole for all times. It is the West that named this Faith as Mohammadanism on the fashion of Christianity, Buddhism, Confucianism, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism. Otherwise the name of this religious order is already given in its book the Holy Quran as ISLAM as quite opposed to the method of naming the order after its founder, the founder of Islam himself is called a MUSLIM as any other believer. As the various prophets preached this same Truth among different nations at different times in different languages, every Apostle of God is spoken of in the Holy Quran as a Muslim.
Thus I have found, beyond all doubts that Islam is the religion which humanity needs for its progress in all spheres or aspects of its material as well as Spiritual life, to earn Salvation in the end.
A Muslim has to believe in all the prophets as truthful and sinless and their holy books as the true word of God, revealed for the people and for the age, and also believes in Muhammad as the last of the apostles of God and his book i.e. the holy Quran as the last of the revealed Word of God to abide forever.
In short, a Muslim embraces, through the holy Quran. Every beauty in every religion, and turns his face from that which has been added to the religion of God by man, and that is Islam.
With the truth sufficiently explained, will not every one of us love it? Or will not every one of us embrace it?
This solemn declaration I make just to be helpful to those who sincerely desire to know the Truth which they need for themselves to live the life in this world to reach the blissful destination which is called salvation.
None can ever deny that there can never be any other way to please God than completely surrendering ourselves to His Will, an act which is called ISLAM.
Thus the promise of the Lord to Abraham's seed was fulfilled in the Advent and success of the Holy Prophet in establishing the Truth for all times:
New Testament Acts: 3:22-25
"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, a Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your breathren, like unto me, him shall ye hearken-in all things whatsoever he shall stay unto you."
"And it shall come to pass, that every soul which will not near that Prophet shall be destroyed from among the people."
"Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days."
"Ye are the children of the Prophets, and of the Covenant which God made with our fathers saying unto Abraham. And in thy seed shall all the kindred of the earth be blessed."
I once again make it openly known that this true and sincere declaration of some facts is meant for not anyone who does not like to know anything against his fixed belief, but for those free thinkers who are seriously busy in search of the Truth and are ready to acknowledge it irrespective of the quarter or the agency through which it manifests.
Let me conclude with my sincerest thanks and gratitude to the merciful Lord for I have realized the fulfillment of His merciful promise to guide aright those who sincerely seek the truth.
By S. Ghaffan

[brmm]

Salam Alaikom all....Regarding this story, I think the following debate is worth it to be seen, especially brother Ahmed Dedaat speech.

[May Ayob]

Salaam

Jazak Allhu Khair brother for sharing this, That was great story!

Masha'Allah Wonderful

Salaam

[SFatima]

Thats a very informative piece of writing, I would love to share it if you may allow, can i link it up somewhere else?

[M.I.A.]

thanks that was brill,
i have a silly question though.

the quran states the bible as a book of god and christians as people of the book.
does this imply at some point in time there was a bible which was the word of god?

feel free to correct my ignorance.

[Ramadhan]

the quran states the bible as a book of god and christians as people of the book.
does this imply at some point in time there was a bible which was the word of god?

The qur'an never states the bible a book of God.
Did christians tell you this?
It's a lie.
Feel free to refute me.

[brmm]

thanks that was brill,
i have a silly question though.

the quran states the bible as a book of god and christians as people of the book.
does this imply at some point in time there was a bible which was the word of god?

feel free to correct my ignorance.

Salam alaikom brother
the Bible= The Jewish books + the Christian Gospels according to the Christian belief. According to the Islamic belief there is no book called Bible.
The Ingeel (the Gospel of Isa, Jesus PBUH) is mentioned in the Holy Quran not the Bible.

[Ramadhan]

:sl: brother,

the Bible= Tawrah (Torah/The Law) + Ingeel (Gospel) The Ingeel (the Gospel) is mentioned in the Holy Quran not the Bible.

bible is a collection of books, numbering in total between 66 to 76 books, depending on which bible you use (there is no one single bible)
and (christian bible) is NOT = (torah + injeel).

christian bible = old testament + new testament

old testament consists of 24 judaic hebrew scriptures (but not in the same order or content as judaic) and consists of books such as:
- the pentateuch also known as the torah, regarded as written by moses (pbuh), although it is not possible because the books also tell stories about Moses' own funeral (!) so it may contain some tawrah and
- psalms, regarded as written by Daud (pbuh) and may contain some zabur but it is also regarded as corrupted by evidence
The rest of the books were written by various known and uknown rabbis, scribes, etc.

New testament consists of the four canonical gospels, letters of paul, letters of the pastors, apocrypha and various other books. Letters of saul alone dominate half of the new testament, while Jesus' sayings and actions as reported in the four gospels only contribute as much as 18%.
With the exception of letters of paul, the authorships of the other books are not known.

Also injeel is NOT the same as the four canonical gospel.
Injeel would be The gospel of Jesus (pbuh), and we know that there is no gospel of jesus (pbuh) in the bible, there only the gospels of luke, matthew, john, and mark.
Remember, in the early days of christianity, there were hundreds of gospels, and nicece council decided to purge gospels which did not conform to the roman/latin idea of jesus (pbuh).

The mistake that people often make is they think injeel = bible, or even injeel = four canonical gospels.

[M.I.A.]

thanks for the clarification.
but i am still confused.

so what was the injeel?

jesus pbuh gospel


so the next question is do you have any idea as to its compilation or existence?

it is not the bible in anyway as that was written a long time after, right? unless the bible has paraphrased language from the injeel.



any expansion on your answers is sincerely appreciated.

i hope you understand my feeling, im a little lost.

so at some point the uncorrupted injeel existed that was the word of god, in a written form?
and it is not the books of the bible?

wrt to torah i understand that the ark of the covenant is still here somewhere so it does exist in an uncorrupted form..unfortunately it is lost at the moment.

[Hiroshi]

The following verse of the Holy Quran informs us of the fact that Prophets were raised by God, among all nations in all parts of the earth:
"There is not a nation but a Warner has gone among them." (Quran 35:24)
It convinced me that Islam alone, is an all comprehensive faith which recognizes all other religions and which contains in it a perfectly harmonious integration of all the good, found partly in the other religious orders of the world. The sacred book of Islam i.e. the Holy Quran, is the final exposition of the Divine Truth in its Perfection which was revealed at different times, through the other heavenly scriptures, in parts suiting the various evolutionary levels.
The above verses of the Holy Quran bear clear of conception by the human minds. The limitation testimony to the, fact that, as one of the fundamentals of the human mind of the different ages, did not of his Faith, every Muslim has to believe not only allow even prophets like Jesus to speak out the whole in the Holy Prophet Muhammad but in all the other of the truth. Jesus had to depart with many things prophets as truthful and holy and should not make yet to be told to his people. (John. 16:14). Jesus had to tell his people to wait until the advent of the Spirit of Truth to disclose the whole of the Truth. (John 16:13)
I was further impressed by the Universal aspect of the religion Islam.
Every answer from the Lecturer was with an unchallengeable authority and with an unbreakable argument. I was awakened to differentiate between genuine truth and the fabrications of falsehood and to know many new factors to which I was blind all these years. But I did not know how to reconcile the dawn of true knowledge of truth with my original blind dogmatic belief and my belonging to the Christian faith any longer. I wanted to find out some failure on the part of the Lecturer to answer satisfactorily some questions or the other, so that I may have some excuse, be that even a false one, to maintain my position in the Christian faith.
The Lecturer continued after some time with the question:
"Shall I ask you something if you do not mind answering it for my information? "
I said: "Yes".
He asked: "Do you think Jesus to be a son of God or God himself?"
I said: "Jesus, according to the Christian belief is God Himself in the form of His Son."
He asked: "Can you ever conceive anyone to be the immortal God and at the same time be a mortal (Man) to be caught in the hands of other mortals to suffer death? Can anything be high and at the same time low, black and at the same time be white? Can there be darkness and the same time light? What philosophy is this?"
The Lecturer continued saying:
"Do you ever consider that there is one other question confronting the doctrine of the Trinity which needs to be answered by every Trinitarian that if any three different beings which are three different entities, are also at the same time One, with absolute unity in all the perfect sense or meaning of Oneness, what is the common control which makes them remain three and also be one at one and the same time? If there be any factor of such a wonderful and inconceivable phenomena causing this amazing effect, then that supreme causative power, which controls the number and the unity, will alone be the Omnipotent God and not any one of the three which are only the controlled components."
"Besides, there arises another problematic question which a believer in the Trinity will have to answer i.e. as to whom is that controls or determines the splitting of one into only three different others, to be neither more nor less in number? There must be some cause for this controlled effect and that the causative factor acting supreme over three will be the Omnipotent God and not any one of the three which will only be the effect of the supreme controlling cause."
"Similarly, will arise the question, what is the causative power which affects the three to be only one when joining together and not divided into many groups of beings and if there be any such cause, that supreme controlling cause will be the Omnipotent God and not anyone of the three which will only be the subservient one."
"Under any circumstances no sensible man can ever reasonably believe in any effect whatsoever without some causative factor effecting it."
"However the Holy Trinity is only a problematic doctrine created by the Christian Church which no logical reasoning can ever prove true."
I had to helplessly agree to the views of the Lecturer for I could not now reasonably believe in the existence of anything being itself and at the same time being its own opposite.
"I would like you, Mr. Joseph" said the Lecturer, "to ponder a little over the belief that Jesus being God Himself or the son of God, was so terrified at the impending crucifixion that he shouted:
"Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachthani" (My God, My God, hast thou forsaken me?) (Matthew 27:46)
"What philosophy is that? If Jesus was God Himself, does it mean that God was forsaken by God Himself and can that be God who felt hopeless and shouted to be rescued?
"Your Bible itself, Mr. Joseph, reports that the son of God was forsaken by his father (God) in which case the forsaken son automatically and quite naturally forfeits his personal merits as a son and his relationship of being a son to his father. What do you say? Of what profitable use can the attachment to a forsaken son be? Mr. Joseph, please tell me."
I was struck dumb - I did not know what to say and what to do with the faith I already possessed as a staunch Christian.
"Besides," the Lecturer continued: "Do you think Jesus to be God Himself when he falls down crying, praying to someone else to remove the cup of death by crucifixion? "
I asked: "Alright Sir, how do you reconcile the violence used by the Prophet of Islam to his being an Apostle of God?"
Immediately came the reply from the Lecturer: "Please, Mr. Joseph, quote a single instance from the whole life history of the Holy Prophet Muhammad to show that he has ever committed any unprovoked aggression or any single instance of his taking the least initiative in attacking any single soul. Each expedition of a battle he led or he allowed was only in self-defense. Had he not defended as he did, today his advent in this world and his teachings about the truth about God which the world has learnt only through his holy mission, would have become legends of ancient times full of blasphemies for you and for me, only to be read in story books and thus be deluded by falsehood for all times. The Bible does not preach self-defense. The Bible only preaches self-surrender to the extent of handing over everything of one's possession when anything which was in one's hand has been taken away by any aggressor. Does any Christian power follow this?"
"Apart from the political history of the Christian nations of Europe do you not remember the inhuman methods employed by Christendom to spread its faith?"

This simply proves that the Bible does not teach thr trinity doctrine. Belief in the trinity is a feature of false Christianity. It does not mean that true Christianity is wrong or that the Bible is wrong.

I am interested to note that Muhammad kept committing acts of self-defense until he had conquered the whole of Arabia.

[Ramadhan]

so what was the injeel?

Can I ask you:
1. Have you read the Qur'an?
2. Have you read bible?

Now, to answer your question about what injeel is, this is what Allah SWT says regarding injeel:
“And in their footsteps, We sent ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the Tawraat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Tawraat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqoon (the pious)”
[al-Maa’idah 5:46]

So Jesus (pbuh) was sent to confirm and fulfill the law, not to replace, abolish or make them obsolete, as christians believe. Even in the bible, this might still survive:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
"Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
(Matthew 5:17-19)

“And He (Allaah) will teach him [‘Eesa (Jesus)] the Book and Al-Hikmah (i.e. the Sunnah, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom), (and) the Tawraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:48]

So, clearly injeel is the revelation from Allah SWT to prophet Jesus (pbuh), similar to Torah, Zabur and Al Qur'an.

And if you read bible (which I am sure you have), you would know right away that the gospels of matthew, mark, luke and john are books written about the accounts of the supposedly the four disciples of Jesus (pbuh). At best, the gospels is similar to seerah (biography) or ahadeeth. The differences are great however: while authentic ahadeeth were memorised and written during prophet Muhammad SAW, its sanad (chain of transmissions) are clear and impeccable (if there's someone on the chain who was found lied or not having impeccable character, every hadith that come through them are classified as weak and/or fabrication) and ahadeeth were written in the original language (arabic), the authors of the four gospels are unknown and there's no chain of transmission and the odest written in different language and in 3 centuries after Jesus (pbuh) departed.

Not only that, even christians do not believe that gospels is the revelation from God to Jesus (pbuh). This is unlike the jews who believe that torah is revelation given to prophet Musa (pbuh).

so the next question is do you have any idea as to its compilation or existence? it is not the bible in anyway as that was written a long time after, right? unless the bible has paraphrased language from the injeel.

Unlike prophet Muhammad (SAW), prophet Jesus (pbuh) is not known to have asked his disciples to write everything he said/did or even to memorise them.
This is unlike Moses (pbuh) and taurah where Allah SWT has explained it was written:

“And We wrote for him on the Tablets the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation for all things (and said): Hold unto these with firmness, and enjoin your people to take the better therein. I shall show you the home of Al-Faasiqoon (the rebellious, disobedient to Allaah)”
[al-A’raaf 7:145]

Although some Islamic scholars believe that his speeches and actions were recorded, and if they had been recorded, they must have been in either aramaic or ancient hebrew (the languages of Jesus and his disciples), and if there was any previous existence of such written injeel, it had been lost.

[M.I.A.]

thanks, i appreciate the response.

to answer your questions, i have read the quran and translation.
i have not read the bible, all i know of it is from what i have picked up on these forums and in passing.

[Hiroshi]

Hi Ramadhan. I would like to comment here.

Now, to answer your question about what injeel is, this is what Allah SWT says regarding injeel:
“And in their footsteps, We sent ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the Tawraat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Tawraat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqoon (the pious)”
[al-Maa’idah 5:46]

So Jesus (pbuh) was sent to confirm and fulfill the law, not to replace, abolish or make them obsolete, as christians believe. Even in the bible, this might still survive:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
"Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
(Matthew 5:17-19)

“And He (Allaah) will teach him [‘Eesa (Jesus)] the Book and Al-Hikmah (i.e. the Sunnah, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom), (and) the Tawraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:48]

So, clearly injeel is the revelation from Allah SWT to prophet Jesus (pbuh), similar to Torah, Zabur and Al Qur'an.

The Law of Moses had two important features. (1) It assured everlasting life to anyone who would keep the Law by fulfilling all its requirements. (2) It placed a curse upon anyone under that Law who did not keep every single requirement of that Law.

But no one in history except Jesus was able to keep the Law of Moses perfectly. So instead of gaining everlasting life the Jews continued to die, as all of mankind eventually die. And in addition the Jews in fact came to be under a curse. However, Jesus could remove that curse by fulfilling the Law completely.

Romans 3:10-13 explains:

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

By the manner of his death Jesus removed the curse that came upon all those who tried unsuccessfully to keep the Mosaic Law. The Law was then fulfilled and all those putting faith in Jesus were freed from having to keep it. They could gain everlasting life instead by means of the ransom sacrifice which atoned for their sins.

And if you read bible (which I am sure you have), you would know right away that the gospels of matthew, mark, luke and john are books written about the accounts of the supposedly the four disciples of Jesus (pbuh). At best, the gospels is similar to seerah (biography) or ahadeeth. The differences are great however: while authentic ahadeeth were memorised and written during prophet Muhammad SAW, its sanad (chain of transmissions) are clear and impeccable (if there's someone on the chain who was found lied or not having impeccable character, every hadith that come through them are classified as weak and/or fabrication) and ahadeeth were written in the original language (arabic), the authors of the four gospels are unknown and there's no chain of transmission and the odest written in different language and in 3 centuries after Jesus (pbuh) departed.

Islam places heavy reliance on the identity of the men in the chain of transmission of hadith and their character.

By contrast, the men who wrote the scriptures in the Bible often do not make mention of themselves but rather give the credit to God for their writings.

The scriptures should be evaluated by their content as to whether they are from God or not not solely by their writership. The Gospels are filled with prophetic pronouncements concerning things that only God could know about and which are vital and life-saving to us today as they were to Christians of the first century.

Although some Islamic scholars believe that his speeches and actions were recorded, and if they had been recorded, they must have been in either aramaic or ancient hebrew (the languages of Jesus and his disciples), and if there was any previous existence of such written injeel, it had been lost.

Surah 7:157 speaks of the writings of the Gospel that are "with them", i.e. with the Christians living in Muhammad's time. The very writings that existed then, and even older copies, are still preserved today. They are not lost.

[Hiroshi]

thanks, i appreciate the response.

to answer your questions, i have read the quran and translation.
i have not read the bible, all i know of it is from what i have picked up on these forums and in passing.

Many Muslims regard the Bible almost with a sense of repugnance and are discouraged from ever reading it.

[Hiroshi]

The earlier post that I made was quoting from Galatians not Romans. I tried three times to correct this reference by attempting to edit the post but the system would not allow me to do so.

[M.I.A.]

Many Muslims regard the Bible almost with a sense of repugnance and are discouraged from ever reading it.

nooo, i think your brush strokes may be too wide. my family and parents never discouraged me from any sort of reading.
they may have looked at me a little strange if i had bought a copy of the bible but i didnt get into "religion" until my late twenties and belonging to an islamic family, the quran was and still is an ongoing point of learning.
my granma still tells me to trim my beard so i guess you can understand how this relates to your point lol. (no disrespect intended to my gran, i love her very much)

but if any question arises in my mind regarding any of the prophets peace and blessings be upon them, or there messages.. then these forums are a good point for learning.

[Hiroshi]

nooo, i think your brush strokes may be too wide. my family and parents never discouraged me from any sort of reading.
they may have looked at me a little strange if i had bought a copy of the bible but i didnt get into "religion" until my late twenties and belonging to an islamic family, the quran was and still is an ongoing point of learning.
my granma still tells me to trim my beard so i guess you can understand how this relates to your point lol. (no disrespect intended to my gran, i love her very much)

but if any question arises in my mind regarding any of the prophets peace and blessings be upon them, or there messages.. then these forums are a good point for learning.

Well I am happy that you say that. But I have had some negative responses from some characters when I quote the Bible.

In some English hotels or guest houses it is the custom to leave a Bible in the room for anyone to read. When my daughter went on a school trip for some days with others in her class they had been booked in to stay at just such accommodation. But there were many Muslim children in her class who strongly objected to the Bibles and wanted them taken away.

Hopefully then, most Muslims are more open minded.

[M.I.A.]

Well I am happy that you say that. But I have had some negative responses from some characters when I quote the Bible.

In some English hotels or guest houses it is the custom to leave a Bible in the room for anyone to read. When my daughter went on a school trip for some days with others in her class they had been booked in to stay at just such accommodation. But there were many Muslim children in her class who strongly objected to the Bibles and wanted them taken away.

Hopefully then, most Muslims are more open minded.

hopefully those children will mature to be well rounded individuals, it depends on what they are taught when they are willing to learn.. guess thats life for you.

i dont think anybody can unify christianity and islam through the book, but the way in which questions are posed and there content used should be done for benefit to both.. if that is what we seek.. after all both claim to represent one god, before any division sets in.

the last thing id say is that i was told to hate the action and not the person, we are different people in any given situation..and in my eyes the moment you actively pursue religion is the first steps to becoming a constant person.

i do not know who i was when i was a child but as a man id like to think im not a mischief maker anymore.

[SFatima]

Well I am happy that you say that. But I have had some negative responses from some characters when I quote the Bible.

In some English hotels or guest houses it is the custom to leave a Bible in the room for anyone to read. When my daughter went on a school trip for some days with others in her class they had been booked in to stay at just such accommodation. But there were many Muslim children in her class who strongly objected to the Bibles and wanted them taken away.

Hopefully then, most Muslims are more open minded.

Greetings hiroshi,

I do not know of any muslims who would hold hatred towards the bible/ christians or jews or anyone for that matter. Hate isn't taught to us. That is another thing if parents try to prevent their children to go near the other books at an early stage in life where they aren't even familiar with their own book. But as muslims it is only required of us to read and understand the Quran as much as we can, and that includes the references to Torah and Gospels (injeel) not bible though, and we may read them if we wish to raise our knowledge,and in fact we understand them more, after we have read the Quran more thoroughly.

I came across the bible too quite a few times when we stayed at hotels and wanted to take it home with me but sigh I could never ask anyone if I was allowed to, felt embarrassed since my sister kept telling me that it was going to look weird if I asked : S

[Ramadhan]

By contrast, the men who wrote the scriptures in the Bible often do not make mention of themselves but rather give the credit to God for their writings.

So this means christians are happy to accept that God wrote errors, contradictions, and even in many instances, smut, that's because you find them in bible.

Also, since you don't have the identities of the writers of bible, how did you know that the writers credited God for their writings? I'm always surprised whenever christians make this and that claims, including this one.

[May Ayob]

Many Muslims regard the Bible almost with a sense of repugnance and are discouraged from ever reading it.

That is not true , I used to live in Zimbabwe and when we were little kids the school forced me even thopugh I am a Muslim to read the Bible, attend Christian classes and draw the cross ... I was actually forced or either I wouldn't have continued my primary education , the little kids in class used to see how I drew the cross and it was perfect but no it didn't satisfy them at all so they kept demanding me to draw it over and over again... Non of the above has ever affected my faith in Allah as being One with no other partners, There is a big majority of Muslim who are very familiar with the Bible and know it very well but no one can deny that the bible is everything but the word of God

Peace be to you

[Misz_Muslimah]

Jazaakalahu khayr for sharing..
Great story

[M.I.A.]

That is not true , I used to live in Zimbabwe and when we were little kids the school forced me even thopugh I am a Muslim to read the Bible, attend Christian classes and draw the cross ... I was actually forced or either I wouldn't have continued my primary education , the little kids in class used to see how I drew the cross and it was perfect but no it didn't satisfy them at all so they kept demanding me to draw it over and over again... Non of the above has ever affected my faith in Allah as being One with no other partners, There is a big majority of Muslim who are very familiar with the Bible and know it very well but no one can deny that the bible is everything but the word of God

Peace be to you

wow, i feel really bad for you.
sounds like some sort of mental torture and brainwashing technique, breaking a persons will is often how its done.

[Who Am I?]

Many Muslims regard the Bible almost with a sense of repugnance and are discouraged from ever reading it.

I have to disagree with that. I still have my copy of the Bible and I still read it from time to time. I memorized parts of it when I was in school. It is part of who I am and I cannot ignore that.

Even when I was a Christian, I always respected the Qu'ran and never agreed with that idiot pastor who wants to burn it.

I wish I had been taught both the Qu'ran and the Bible as a kid so that I could have then made a more informed choice in my formative years. I didn't really know anything about Islam until recently and feel like the last 35 years of my life has been a waste of time.

[Trumble]

In some English hotels or guest houses it is the custom to leave a Bible in the room for anyone to read. When my daughter went on a school trip for some days with others in her class they had been booked in to stay at just such accommodation. But there were many Muslim children in her class who strongly objected to the Bibles and wanted them taken away.

Not exactly a 'custom' as such. The vast majority are given to the hotels (and also hospitals, care homes, prisons etc, etc) by an evangelical Christian organization called the Gideons and have been since long before Britain became 'multicultural' in the way it is today. They give a New Testament to each school-child as well, or at least they did in my day; I suspect that might be different now. In a 'Christian' country that's fair enough, IMHO. That said, if people are offended I'm sure the hotel staff would gladly remove the Bible from their room for the duration of their stay if asked.

Many London hotels now also have a copy of the Qur'an in each room as well.

[Just_A_Girl13]

Not exactly a 'custom' as such. The vast majority are given to the hotels (and also hospitals, care homes, prisons etc, etc) by an evangelical Christian organization called the Gideons and have been since long before Britain became 'multicultural' in the way it is today. They give a New Testament to each school-child as well, or at least they did in my day; I suspect that might be different now. In a 'Christian' country that's fair enough, IMHO. That said, if people are offended I'm sure the hotel staff would gladly remove the Bible from their room for the duration of their stay if asked. Many London hotels now also have a copy of the Qur'an in each room as well.

This is practiced in many American hotels as well. I find it interesting that British schoolchildren are given a copy of the New Testament, because in American public schools, that isn't allowed. I assume you attended a private school.

I think it would be interesting to visit a hotel with a copy of the Qur'an in each room. I think they should adopt that practice in America as well. Perhaps I will have the privilege of visiting London someday, insha'Allah :)

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

I think it would be interesting to visit a hotel with a copy of the Qur'an in each room.

The idea of a hotel that has a copy of the Qur'an in each room doesn't appeal to me. I dread to think of even the tiniest disrespect shown to it by ignorant people.

[Just_A_Girl13]

The idea of a hotel that has a copy of the Qur'an in each room doesn't appeal to me. I dread to think of even the tiniest disrespect shown to it by ignorant people.

Hmmm...... I suppose you're right. I hadn't even thought of that. That is a very upsetting thought :hmm:

[Trumble]

This is practiced in many American hotels as well. I find it interesting that British schoolchildren are given a copy of the New Testament, because in American public schools, that isn't allowed. I assume you attended a private school.

No, a state school (in the UK private schools are often called public schools, which is terribly confusing!) It seems that they still do it, although some schools have banned it to avoid upsetting other faiths.

[brmm]

:sl: brother,



bible is a collection of books, numbering in total between 66 to 76 books, depending on which bible you use (there is no one single bible)
and (christian bible) is NOT = (torah + injeel).

christian bible = old testament + new testament

old testament consists of 24 judaic hebrew scriptures (but not in the same order or content as judaic) and consists of books such as:
- the pentateuch also known as the torah, regarded as written by moses (pbuh), although it is not possible because the books also tell stories about Moses' own funeral (!) so it may contain some tawrah and
- psalms, regarded as written by Daud (pbuh) and may contain some zabur but it is also regarded as corrupted by evidence
The rest of the books were written by various known and uknown rabbis, scribes, etc.

New testament consists of the four canonical gospels, letters of paul, letters of the pastors, apocrypha and various other books. Letters of saul alone dominate half of the new testament, while Jesus' sayings and actions as reported in the four gospels only contribute as much as 18%.
With the exception of letters of paul, the authorships of the other books are not known.

Also injeel is NOT the same as the four canonical gospel.
Injeel would be The gospel of Jesus (pbuh), and we know that there is no gospel of jesus (pbuh) in the bible, there only the gospels of luke, matthew, john, and mark.
Remember, in the early days of christianity, there were hundreds of gospels, and nicece council decided to purge gospels which did not conform to the roman/latin idea of jesus (pbuh).

The mistake that people often make is they think injeel = bible, or even injeel = four canonical gospels.

Salam Alaikom brother .... thank you for correcting me.

[May Ayob]

wow, i feel really bad for you. sounds like some sort of mental torture and brainwashing technique, breaking a persons will is often how its done.

Salaam
Thank you for your concern, but it didn't really affect me in anyway,
Although they used to make us watch Disney's movie Hercules which is kind of strange and I didn't understand why?
But now I think it's clear.
Also, the story of prophet Moses PBUH was very close to that which my mother used to tell us , I didn't like the drawings though, I didn't understand why they had to draw the prophets, well it was quite and experience


Salaam

[Hiroshi]

:sl:



The idea of a hotel that has a copy of the Qur'an in each room doesn't appeal to me. I dread to think of even the tiniest disrespect shown to it by ignorant people.

But disrespect for the Bible doesn't cause you dread? God has made the Bible available to all people in all languages. Why should the Qur'an be treated differently?

[Hiroshi]

no one can deny that the bible is everything but the word of God

Peace be to you

Jesus said that the Bible is the true word of God (John 17:17). But usage of the cross and the trinity doctrine are not taught in the Bible. The best evidence is that Jesus did not die on a cross.

[Hiroshi]

Greetings hiroshi,

I do not know of any muslims who would hold hatred towards the bible/ christians or jews or anyone for that matter. Hate isn't taught to us. That is another thing if parents try to prevent their children to go near the other books at an early stage in life where they aren't even familiar with their own book. But as muslims it is only required of us to read and understand the Quran as much as we can, and that includes the references to Torah and Gospels (injeel) not bible though, and we may read them if we wish to raise our knowledge,and in fact we understand them more, after we have read the Quran more thoroughly.

I came across the bible too quite a few times when we stayed at hotels and wanted to take it home with me but sigh I could never ask anyone if I was allowed to, felt embarrassed since my sister kept telling me that it was going to look weird if I asked : S

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[May Ayob]

Jesus said that the Bible is the true word of God (John 17:17). But usage of the cross and the trinity doctrine are not taught in the Bible. The best evidence is that Jesus did not die on a cross.

Jesus was not even there when the Bible was written, Also If you are Catholic how about checking out what The Vatican said about the Bible recently , pretty interesting. That is not to note that the Bible is a compilation of old scripture written by heads Church years after Jesus PBUH has left. Also I advice you to read a book called Mis-qouting Jesus Very good one I would advise anyone to read

Peace be to you.

[Hiroshi]

So this means christians are happy to accept that God wrote errors, contradictions, and even in many instances, smut, that's because you find them in bible.

If you give me an example of what you refer to here then could examine this more closely.

Also, since you don't have the identities of the writers of bible, how did you know that the writers credited God for their writings? I'm always surprised whenever christians make this and that claims, including this one.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 says: "when you heard God's word, which you heard from us you accepted it, not as the word of men, but just as it truthfully is, as the word of God".
2 Timothy 3:16 says: "All scripture is inspired of God".

[Grace Seeker]

This is practiced in many American hotels as well. I find it interesting that British schoolchildren are given a copy of the New Testament, because in American public schools, that isn't allowed. I assume you attended a private school.

I think it would be interesting to visit a hotel with a copy of the Qur'an in each room. I think they should adopt that practice in America as well. Perhaps I will have the privilege of visiting London someday, insha'Allah :)

As previousl mentioned the Bibles that are found in many hotel rooms are not placed there by the hotel, but by a group of Christians (Gideons) who have organized themselves specifically for the purpose of distributing copies of the Bible as widely as possible. They buy these Bibles with their own money or donations provided by others specifically for this purpose. Even travel to distribute these Bibles is something they pay for out of their own pocket; rather than use donated funds to cover expenses they use them to buy more Bibles and cover all expenses out-of-pocket. They then distribute the Bibles whenever and wherever they can find permission to do so. If you want to Qur'an similarly distributed, I don't think there is anything that would prevent Muslims from doing the same thing with respect to the Qur'an if they were to so organize themselves.

[Ramadhan]

Jesus said that the Bible is the true word of God (John 17:17). But usage of the cross and the trinity doctrine are not taught in the Bible. The best evidence is that Jesus did not die on a cross.

Really Hiroshi?

Let's see what John 17:17 actually said:
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth

It means God's word is the truth. I agree with that.
It does not say that Bible = God's word.

You need to cast just a tiny bit of critical eye of your own faith, Hiroshi. You don't even have to be as nearly critical as when you examine other faith, and if you do just that, maybe you will find truth (or lack of it).

[Ramadhan]

1 Thessalonians 2:13 says: "when you heard God's word, which you heard from us you accepted it, not as the word of men, but just as it truthfully is, as the word of God".

I agree if it WERE God's word. However, there is nowhere even in bible which says that bible = God's word.

[Ramadhan]

If you give me an example of what you refer to here then could examine this more closely.

Really, you wanna do that?
Even christians admit that bible is full of pornographic and smut passages.

Funnily and sadly, a boy got an F for his essay which is cited by his taecher for being too pornographic:
The Passion That Knew No Bounds, a short story written by Landover Baptist School for the Vouchered and Saved senior high student, Truman Vidal (pictured right), found its way into the principal's office earlier this week. Truman’s teacher, Miss Marcia Blaine, was so scandalized by his racy, salacious prose that she crushed the essay into a tight ball and crammed it down Truman’s throat during class, screaming “I will not have pornographic filth in my Christian classroom!” as cheering students looked on. Miss Blaine then asked Principal Hargraves to expel Truman for violating School Rule 1834(b)ii 9 (“Thou shalt not write anything that would make the Lord Jesus squirm with discomfort.”) http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1203/bibleporn.html

It turned every single pornographic paragraph of this boy's essay was taken carbon copy from the bible!
;D

But let's entertain your idea:

So, christians do believe that God needs to be so explicit when recounting sexual stories. Here's some tiny examples from "holy" bible:

But still she went on the more with her loose behaviour, keeping in mind the early days when she had been a loose woman in the land of Egypt.
She lusted after lovers with genitals as large as a donkey's and emissions like those of a horse.
So she longed to do the sinful things she did when she was young in Egypt, when young men caressed and fondled her breasts.
(Ezekiel 23:19-21)

Sure you can argue that the story is a warning for those who aspire to become a prostitute, but why if bible were truly words of God, why did God want to recount the w hores sisters stories in such pornographic details? Is it necessary to tell that prostitutes are only interested in penises as large as donkeys' penis and who can produce sperm in large amounts after ejaculations just like horses do after they ejaculate?

I can go on and on and give you examples how according to christians, God wrote smut.

Here's some enlightenment lecture on the bible study of smut and pornography:

[Hiroshi]

Really, you wanna do that?
Even christians admit that bible is full of pornographic and smut passages.

Funnily and sadly, a boy got an F for his essay which is cited by his taecher for being too pornographic:
The Passion That Knew No Bounds, a short story written by Landover Baptist School for the Vouchered and Saved senior high student, Truman Vidal (pictured right), found its way into the principal's office earlier this week. Truman’s teacher, Miss Marcia Blaine, was so scandalized by his racy, salacious prose that she crushed the essay into a tight ball and crammed it down Truman’s throat during class, screaming “I will not have pornographic filth in my Christian classroom!” as cheering students looked on. Miss Blaine then asked Principal Hargraves to expel Truman for violating School Rule 1834(b)ii 9 (“Thou shalt not write anything that would make the Lord Jesus squirm with discomfort.”) http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1203/bibleporn.html

It turned every single pornographic paragraph of this boy's essay was taken carbon copy from the bible!
;D

But let's entertain your idea:

So, christians do believe that God needs to be so explicit when recounting sexual stories. Here's some tiny examples from "holy" bible:

But still she went on the more with her loose behaviour, keeping in mind the early days when she had been a loose woman in the land of Egypt.
She lusted after lovers with genitals as large as a donkey's and emissions like those of a horse.
So she longed to do the sinful things she did when she was young in Egypt, when young men caressed and fondled her breasts.
(Ezekiel 23:19-21)

Sure you can argue that the story is a warning for those who aspire to become a prostitute, but why if bible were truly words of God, why did God want to recount the w hores sisters stories in such pornographic details? Is it necessary to tell that prostitutes are only interested in penises as large as donkeys' penis and who can produce sperm in large amounts after ejaculations just like horses do after they ejaculate?

I can go on and on and give you examples how according to christians, God wrote smut.

Here's some enlightenment lecture on the bible study of smut and pornography:

The Israelites to whom of Ezekiel wrote (those of Samaria and Jerusalem - Ezekiel 23:4) should have experienced great shame when reading this things. These ones had forsaken God and turned instead to idolatry and to the nations of Babylon and Assyria for security. God was expressing how disgusted he felt at their behaviour. An angry husband might well say such words to a wife who had acted outrageously in commiting prostitution with other men.

Someone with a schoolboy mentality might s****** at such things. But try to imagine the horror of someone who realizes that Almighty God is directly accusing him of acting as these prostitute cities had acted. Wouldn't such a realization shock them to their senses? That is the reason for these strong words in the Bible. If God feels and expresses such disgust at human behaviour then we need to be made aware of this and be made to fear his wrath.

[Hiroshi]

Really Hiroshi?

Let's see what John 17:17 actually said:
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth

It means God's word is the truth. I agree with that.
It does not say that Bible = God's word.

You need to cast just a tiny bit of critical eye of your own faith, Hiroshi. You don't even have to be as nearly critical as when you examine other faith, and if you do just that, maybe you will find truth (or lack of it).

Well then, what writings do you believe that Jesus was referring to?

[Hiroshi]

I agree if it WERE God's word. However, there is nowhere even in bible which says that bible = God's word.

Well, if you want an example, in Matthew 15:4 Jesus quotes Exodus 20:12 and Exodus 21:17 and refers to these verses from the Bible as the "word of God" in Matthew 15:6.

[M.I.A.]

there has to be a middle path or path of moderation,
to remove sin is no easy feat,
lust, anger, greed.. the list is probably a lot longer

but every time you remove something of that nature, i would hope you learn its true nature.

unfortunately if you do, you will probably end up poor, lonely and downtrodden.

maybe then you could learn something of the nature of the people.

nobody would ever want to live like that and not so many do...its not normal(which is the path of moderation if not in one sense then another.)

people do what they do to get by, if you dont then you probably wont..
makes we wonder what the days of mana from heaven were like.

[Ramadhan]

The Israelites to whom of Ezekiel wrote (those of Samaria and Jerusalem - Ezekiel 23:4) should have experienced great shame when reading this things. These ones had forsaken God and turned instead to idolatry and to the nations of Babylon and Assyria for security. God was expressing how disgusted he felt at their behaviour. An angry husband might well say such words to a wife who had acted outrageously in commiting prostitution with other men. Someone with a schoolboy mentality might s****** at such things. But try to imagine the horror of someone who realizes that Almighty God is directly accusing him of acting as these prostitute cities had acted. Wouldn't such a realization shock them to their senses? That is the reason for these strong words in the Bible. If God feels and expresses such disgust at human behaviour then we need to be made aware of this and be made to fear his wrath.

So does this mean the bible only written for the israelites?
I guess then bible is only for the morally corrupt and bankrupt like the israelites.

Would you let your own children pick up any book which talk about fondling breasts, penises as large as donkeys', sperm ejaculation as copious as those of horses even if it contains moral story such as "prostitution is bad, kid. Don't do it"?
So you think it is ok to write pornographic stories as long as in the end there is some messages such as "pay up after you use w hores"?

Do you really believe God really narrate about breasts, vagia juices, sperms, get naked with your own brother etc to shock the israelites ?
So God the Most High and Most Al Mighty was expressing His disgusts by writing erotic stories?

Sorry, whichever you are trying to spin it, it does not compute with me

Fact: Bible is full of smut. and I have proven it.

[Ramadhan]

Well then, what writings do you believe that Jesus was referring to?

Did Jesus (pbuh) refer to any writing in the verse?

[Ramadhan]

Well, if you want an example, in Matthew 15:4 Jesus quotes Exodus 20:12 and Exodus 21:17 and refers to these verses from the Bible as the "word of God" in Matthew 15:6.

This is Matthew 15:4
For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'

It does not say bible or that bible = word of God.

Remember, previously you claimed this:

Jesus said that the Bible is the true word of God (John 17:17). But usage of the cross and the trinity doctrine are not taught in the Bible. The best evidence is that Jesus did not die on a cross.

So please give us direct reference and direct quote (I even take from your bible, any bible) that says bible = true word of God.

I hope you can find honesty within yourself, Hiroshi, because I believe that is one of the God's commandments.

[Hiroshi]

This is Matthew 15:4
For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'

It does not say bible or that bible = word of God.

Remember, previously you claimed this:


So please give us direct reference and direct quote (I even take from your bible, any bible) that says bible = true word of God.

I hope you can find honesty within yourself, Hiroshi, because I believe that is one of the God's commandments.

Peace to you Ramadhan.

The Bible does not, of course, contain the word: "Bible". But it refers to the writings contained in these scriptures as the "word of God" as Matthew 15:6 shows. I think that a fair-minded person would say that you are splitting hairs.

[brmm]

Jesus said that the Bible is the true word of God (John 17:17).

Salaam to you Hiroshi,
One day I was in a discussion with Amigo, if the Bible contains the name of God and how a book from God does not contain His Holy name which is the most important piece of information in a divine book.

Frankly, Muslims don't like what they consider as disrespectful sentences in the Bible for our Holy God (ALLAH) and His messengers PBUT. I don't wish to mention any but the OT contains many of them. Muslims also consider worshiping any one but God as the biggest sin which God (ALLAH Almighty) will not forgive as He told us, for these reasons the Bible is, for sure, not their favorite book to read. I have read some parts of it to get an idea about the message of the book and to have my own evaluation.

brmm

[Hiroshi]

So does this mean the bible only written for the israelites?
I guess then bible is only for the morally corrupt and bankrupt like the israelites.

Would you let your own children pick up any book which talk about fondling breasts, penises as large as donkeys', sperm ejaculation as copious as those of horses even if it contains moral story such as "prostitution is bad, kid. Don't do it"?
So you think it is ok to write pornographic stories as long as in the end there is some messages such as "pay up after you use w hores"?

Do you really believe God really narrate about breasts, vagia juices, sperms, get naked with your own brother etc to shock the israelites ?
So God the Most High and Most Al Mighty was expressing His disgusts by writing erotic stories?

Sorry, whichever you are trying to spin it, it does not compute with me

Fact: Bible is full of smut. and I have proven it.

Anyonewho read the entire book of Ezekiel would think it absurd if it wereclaimed that it was filled with smut for the gratification of writeror reader. The writing is tremendously long, 48 chapters, and youhave picked out just a few selected verses and judged the whole bookupon that. God is calling the wrongdoers to account for their actionsand he is telling it like it is. Considering that they should havebeen upholding true worship their behaviour was filthy anddisgusting. It was spiritual fornication.


Ezekielcontains powerful prophecies of future events that only God couldknow about concerning, for example, Babylon and Tyre (Ezekiel 26:7).Some features of the prophecy about Tyre were fulfilled some 250after Ezekiel was written. How could mere men have known about thesethings?


Butthe book also contains scenes of true horror hiding nothing of theoutrages that had been committed. Please read the whole of chapter 8.

[Ramadhan]

Peace to you Ramadhan. The Bible does not, of course, contain the word: "Bible". But it refers to the writings contained in these scriptures as the "word of God" as Matthew 15:6 shows. I think that a fair-minded person would say that you are splitting hairs.

This is Matthew 15:6
he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

Again, it says "the word of god"
but it didn't say any writing or that the word of god = writings.

Now even indirect references.

Let's say that Matthew 15:4 is truly the word of God, are you suggesting the whole bible is the word of god?
Are you saying that half of the NT, letters of paul, are the word of God?

Have you even read your own bible?

[Ramadhan]

Anyonewho read the entire book of Ezekiel would think it absurd if it wereclaimed that it was filled with smut for the gratification of writeror reader. The writing is tremendously long, 48 chapters, and youhave picked out just a few selected verses and judged the whole bookupon that. God is calling the wrongdoers to account for their actionsand he is telling it like it is. Considering that they should havebeen upholding true worship their behaviour was filthy anddisgusting. It was spiritual fornication.

Sure, Not all bible is filled with smut.
But it doesn't nullify my argument that christians believe God has written eortic stories to express His disgusts.

If you christians do not think huge penises, fondling breasts, incestuous sex, etc are too explicit, not even too explicit for children, then christians certainly have pretty loose attitude when it comes to erotic stories.
Do you believe that your won scripture is intended for everyone or not?
Is that why catholics are not allowed by vatican to read bible on their own?

[Ramadhan]

I think you missed this question:

Did Jesus (pbuh) refer to any writing in the verse?

[Hiroshi]

Sure, Not all bible is filled with smut.
But it doesn't nullify my argument that christians believe God has written eortic stories to express His disgusts.

If you christians do not think huge penises, fondling breasts, incestuous sex, etc are too explicit, not even too explicit for children, then christians certainly have pretty loose attitude when it comes to erotic stories.
Do you believe that your won scripture is intended for everyone or not?
Is that why catholics are not allowed by vatican to read bible on their own?

I still think that you are making too big a deal out of this.

Surah4:56 says:

Thosewho reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often astheir skins are roasted through, We shall change them for freshskins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted inPower, Wise.


AndSurah 44:47-48 says:

Avoice will cry: "Seize ye him and drag him into the midst of theBlazing Fire! "Then pour over his head the Penalty of BoilingWater”.


Aboutthree quarters of the surahs in the Qur'an make mention or referenceto hell or hellfire. There are passages like those quoted above thatlinger over graphic details of the most fiendish tortures imaginable.


Thisto me is far more obscene and disturbing than the mention of ahorse's genitals in a verse in Ezekiel.

[Hiroshi]

I think you missed this question:

Did Jesus (pbuh) refer to any writing in the verse?

I believe that he did. Earlier verses in Jesus' recorded prayer give more information.

John 17:6 "they (Jesus' disciples) have observed your word"
John 17:8 "the sayings that you gave me I have given them"
John 17:14 "I have given your word to them"

Jesus many times quoted the Hebrew scriptures to his disciples. And in addition he told them new things from God that are recorded in the Gospels.

[Ramadhan]

I still think that you are making too big a deal out of this. Surah4:56 says: Thosewho reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often astheir skins are roasted through, We shall change them for freshskins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted inPower, Wise. AndSurah 44:47-48 says: Avoice will cry: "Seize ye him and drag him into the midst of theBlazing Fire! "Then pour over his head the Penalty of BoilingWater”. Aboutthree quarters of the surahs in the Qur'an make mention or referenceto hell or hellfire. There are passages like those quoted above thatlinger over graphic details of the most fiendish tortures imaginable. Thisto me is far more obscene and disturbing than the mention of ahorse's genitals in a verse in Ezekiel.

Seriously, Hiroshi?
You can't defend how bible contains smut and pornography materials so explicit that if it weren't a scripture it would have been banned for general consumption in all countries including the most liberal ones, and now you want to take a shot at the Qur'an?
You actually believe that pornography is better than promise of punishments of hell for those who deserve it?

You actually think that when bible talks about fondling virgin breasts, a man enjoy his lover's vaginal juice, ejaculation like horses, a sister gets naked and raunchy with her own brother and every single earthly desires is much better than description of punishment in the hereafter, as a warning for those who are against the command of God?
Or do you want me to quotes more smut passages from bible? What other purposes did it really serve, apart from verbalizing the fantasies of rabbis and scribes who attributed them to God?
In my opinion, those who object to the idea description of the punishments of hell only show that the person realizes that they may go there, and hence their objection.

let me get you straight:
You believe when god in the bible talks about mans penises as big as donkeys, he only wants to shame the israelites?
So bible is actually intended for less than 1% of human being?
Why don't you follow the Qur'an of which God (SWT) directly and plainly claims it is His own WORD, unchanged and preserved, guidelines for ALL mankind?

[Ramadhan]

I believe that he did. Earlier verses in Jesus' recorded prayer give more information. John 17:6 "they (Jesus' disciples) have observed your word" John 17:8 "the sayings that you gave me I have given them" John 17:14 "I have given your word to them" Jesus many times quoted the Hebrew scriptures to his disciples. And in addition he told them new things from God that are recorded in the Gospels.

Again, Hiroshi, you need to be honest with yourself:

Not Only you love to pick and twist Qur'an verses out of context, you actually also do that with your own scripture.

In those verses, it is clear that Jesus (pbuh) taught his disciples the word of God. I never disputed that, but did he ask them to put them in writing? NO.
Was there any evidence even from the bible that the disciples recorded everything Jesus say and did in writing? No
They never did.
The loudest evidence is clearly presented in the bible itself, where the NT only contains no more than 18% of jesus sayings.

Also, Hiroshi, you claimed that bible = word of god.

Does this mean Jesus (pbuh) read from the bible and taught them to his disciples?
Which bible version that Jesus (pbuh) use? Koine Greek? King James Version? Good News Bible? New World Translation bible maybe?

If only you are honest with yourself, you may find the truth, Hiroshi.

[Hiroshi]

Seriously, Hiroshi?
You can't defend how bible contains smut and pornography materials so explicit that if it weren't a scripture it would have been banned for general consumption in all countries including the most liberal ones, and now you want to take a shot at the Qur'an?
You actually believe that pornography is better than promise of punishments of hell for those who deserve it?

You actually think that when bible talks about fondling virgin breasts, a man enjoy his lover's vaginal juice, ejaculation like horses, a sister gets naked and raunchy with her own brother and every single earthly desires is much better than description of punishment in the hereafter, as a warning for those who are against the command of God?
Or do you want me to quotes more smut passages from bible? What other purposes did it really serve, apart from verbalizing the fantasies of rabbis and scribes who attributed them to God?
In my opinion, those who object to the idea description of the punishments of hell only show that the person realizes that they may go there, and hence their objection.

let me get you straight:
You believe when god in the bible talks about mans penises as big as donkeys, he only wants to shame the israelites?
So bible is actually intended for less than 1% of human being?
Why don't you follow the Qur'an of which God (SWT) directly and plainly claims it is His own WORD, unchanged and preserved, guidelines for ALL mankind?

Please understand that I am not seeking to take a shot at the Qur'an (although I cannot myself imagine the God of the Bible speaking in such a way). I just want to get things in perspective. Some people would find Ezekiel objectionable. I believe that some people would find the Quranic verses that I quoted even more shocking.

What keeps being overlooked is an important lesson from the book of Ezekiel. In real terms, chapter 23 is actually speaking about Samaria and Jerusalem forming alliances with Assyria and Babylon. From a human standpoint someone might say: "What is wrong with that?" The Israelites of those cities might not even have been aware of committing any wrongdoing.

But how did God view matters?

The Israelites no longer put their trust in God but were beginning to turn instead to idolatrous nations for security and safety. To God it was as if a wife had left her husband and had gone to commit fornication with others.

With our limited human perception it is not always easy to see things God's way. But the words in Ezekiel make it clear that God was every bit as offended, hurt and disgusted as would be a man whose wife had become a prostitute. Something that may have seemed innocent to the Israelites (although they should have known better) was actually causing God the most monstrous outrage.

So God let them know how he felt in terms that expressed the reality of the situation.

This is not just a lesson for the Israelites but is a lesson for all mankind. James 4:4 warns Christians: "Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is emnity with God?" Christians back then were in danger of adopting the world's loose morality and bad conduct because of too close association with the world. The scripture says that God would view them as shameful adulteresses in a spiritual sense if they acted that way. This is very similar to the words in Ezekiel.

The Bible does not mention sexual matters in order to appeal to the gratuitously sensational, the lurid or the prurient or with the aim of offending the sensibilities of anyone. But the Bible is very open and specific where necessary. As I have explained, there are important lessons to be learned that God is helping us to see.

[Ramadhan]

Please understand that I am not seeking to take a shot at the Qur'an (although I cannot myself imagine the God of the Bible speaking in such a way.I just want to get things in perspective. Some people would find Ezekiel objectionable. I believe that some people would find the Quranic verses that I quoted even more shocking

You cannot imagine God of the bible give mankind warnings of eternal punishment?
I don't know if you believe in the existence of hell or not, but I thought that all christians do believe in hell.

Would it be fair and just if God never give any warnings of the torments of hell for those who deserve to be sent there and then He send them there?
Why is the description of hell shocking? Muslims understand that hell will even be more terrible than what is explicitly described.
And even with the promise of the torments of hell, still, many people, including muslims, not living life according to what has been provided by Allah SWT.
You think hell is shocking? Well, THAT is the idea. To make people come back to reality that this world is only temporary.

Now what purpose is there for God of the bible to write pornographic materials in the scripture?
Is it to be made as a warning not to be a prostitute or as written manual to be a prostitute?
What is the wsidom in that?

First you said it was only for israelites, and now you are saying it's for mankind, which one is that?
Do children of today really need to learn that prostitute only desire lovers whose penises as big as donkey penises and can ejaculate as bug amoung as horses and who fondle their breasts and enjoy their vaginal juices?
Do your children need that?
Maybe christians children do?
But why then the kid in that article I posted previously was almost kicked out of his christian school by his practicing christian teacher only for copying the smut material from bible?

Here's more pornographic materials (and I actually invite you to write more Qur'an verses here, especially about hell, so to shock all of us that the punishment for our disobedience will be severe):

"If only you were my brother, who was nursed at my mother's breasts! Then, if I found you outside, I would kiss you, and no one would despise me. I would lead you and bring you to my mother's house-- she who has taught me. I would give you spiced wine to drink [i.e., her vagina's semen!], the nectar of my pomegranates [vagina]. His left arm is under my head and his right arm embraces me."
Song of Songs 8:1-3

"Dear brothers, I'm a walled-in virgin still, but my breasts are full— And when my lover sees me, he knows he'll soon be satisfied."
Song of Songs 8:10

Incestuous thoughts and extramarital sex in just few verses ?
God of the bible is trying to teach the readers on the joy of unbounded sex?

[Ramadhan]

I'm still waiting for you to answer this:

Which bible version that Jesus (pbuh) use? Koine Greek? King James Version? Good News Bible? New World Translation bible maybe?

Remember, you claimed bible = word of God
So, when jesus (pbuh) said word of God, which bible version did he refer to?

[SFatima]

Just wanted to add a few links,

This is what a Baptist says about the Jesus of the bible, who has been a missionary for 50 years In US.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpPY9...layer_embedded


And this is what a Doctor, ex christian says about interfaith issues,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFeyZ...feature=relmfu

[Hiroshi]

You cannot imagine God of the bible give mankind warnings of eternal punishment?
I don't know if you believe in the existence of hell or not, but I thought that all christians do believe in hell.

The Hebrew word "Sheol" and the Greek word "Hades" both mean the grave. Another Greek word "Gehenna" means a rubbish dump (Gehenna or Hebrew "Geh Hinnom" is where the Arabic word for hell "Jahannam" comes from). Various different translations of the Bible render Sheol, Hades and Gehenna as "hell" but none of these words mean a place of eternal conscious fiery torment.

Here's more pornographic materials (and I actually invite you to write more Qur'an verses here, especially about hell, so to shock all of us that the punishment for our disobedience will be severe):

"If only you were my brother, who was nursed at my mother's breasts! Then, if I found you outside, I would kiss you, and no one would despise me. I would lead you and bring you to my mother's house-- she who has taught me. I would give you spiced wine to drink [i.e., her vagina's semen!], the nectar of my pomegranates [vagina]. His left arm is under my head and his right arm embraces me."
Song of Songs 8:1-3

"Dear brothers, I'm a walled-in virgin still, but my breasts are full— And when my lover sees me, he knows he'll soon be satisfied."
Song of Songs 8:10

Incestuous thoughts and extramarital sex in just few verses ?
God of the bible is trying to teach the readers on the joy of unbounded sex?

I don't know where you get these ideas from. Song of Songs 8:2 only speaks of wine and pomegranates. Where does it mention the woman's vagina?

And Song of Songs 8:10 just says: "I am a wall, and my breasts are like towers. In this case I have become in his eyes like her that is finding peace."

Perhaps you have a translation there that is too liberal with paraphrase.

[Hiroshi]

Also, Hiroshi, you claimed that bible = word of god.

Does this mean Jesus (pbuh) read from the bible and taught them to his disciples?
Which bible version that Jesus (pbuh) use? Koine Greek? King James Version? Good News Bible? New World Translation bible maybe?

If only you are honest with yourself, you may find the truth, Hiroshi.

Jesus was familiar with the writings in the scriptures and often quoted them when necessary. The King James, Good News Bible and New World Translation were not published in the first century. But Koine Greek from the Septuagint was available.

[Hiroshi]

Just wanted to add a few links,

This is what a Baptist says about the Jesus of the bible, who has been a missionary for 50 years In US.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpPY9...layer_embedded


And this is what a Doctor, ex christian says about interfaith issues,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFeyZ...feature=relmfu

Dr. Laurence Brown is wrong. The hand of man cannot destroy the word of God.