Jesus thought JIHAD

[Riana17]

Salam Alaikkum Brothers and Sisters in ISLAM:

This is a very interesting new found for me.

The next time a Christian ask about JIHAD, I would recommend to share the ff inshallah:

Jesus thought of Jihad:
Luke 19:27

Jesus said: And as for these enemies of mine who didn't want me to be their king--bring them in and kill them right here in front of me.


Masalam

[Hiroshi]

Salam Alaikkum Brothers and Sisters in ISLAM:

This is a very interesting new found for me.

The next time a Christian ask about JIHAD, I would recommend to share the ff inshallah:

Jesus thought of Jihad:
Luke 19:27

Jesus said: And as for these enemies of mine who didn't want me to be their king--bring them in and kill them right here in front of me.


Masalam

Hi Riana17.

In this account Jesus makes reference to the destruction of the enemies of God's kingdom at Armageddon (Daniel 2:44; Revelation 16:14-16). This destruction will be carried out by angels, not by any human agency.

[Pygoscelis]

Jesus thought of Jihad:
Luke 19:27

Jesus said: And as for these enemies of mine who didn't want me to be their king--bring them in and kill them right here in front of me.


Masalam

Um, this is what you consider to be Jihad? You are saying that Jihad is gathering your enemies and killing them?

[Perseveranze]

Um, this is what you consider to be Jihad? You are saying that Jihad is gathering your enemies and killing them?

If someone wants to kill you, why wait for them to come and take you by suprise, instead just gather them and end it.

Is that hard to comprehend?

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[May Ayob]

.................................................. ..................................

[Pygoscelis]

If someone wants to kill you, why wait for them to come and take you by suprise, instead just gather them and end it.

Is that hard to comprehend?

The quoted text doesn't say anything about people plotting to kill you. It refers to people who do not want you to be king.

[Pygoscelis]

Well , I don't think this is a good answer to anyone who asks about Jihad, And the above verse is not Jihad.
Jihad Means to struggle and strive and face uncomfortable circumstances in the Cause of God it does not necessarily have to be war.

This is what I thought.

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

The Prophet himself (saws) said that the greatest jihad is the jihad of self, and it is one that I fight every day.

Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose.

[Predator]

Wrong verse

Jesus prepares his disciples for the impending showdown. Discreetly, so as not to frighten his disciples, he introduces the
subject of defence. Gently he begins:


When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked yeanything?" And they said, "Nothing."Then said he unto them, "But now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment and buy one!" (Luke 22:35-36)

This is a preparation for Jihaad, a Holy War - Jews against Jews! Why! Why this somersault?Did he not advise them to "turn the other cheek"; "to forgive seventy times seven" (70 x 7 = 490)? Did he not send his chosen Twelve with the advice:

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye, therefore, as wise as serpents, (?) and as harmless as doves."
(Matthew 10:16)


The situation and the circumstance have changed and as with any wise and able general, the strategy must also change. The disciples were already armed. They had some foresight. They had not left Galilee with bare knuckles. They responded


". . . Lord, behold, here are two SWORDS." And he said unto them, "It is enough". (Luke 22:38)

The missionary, so as to retain the impression of the "meek and gentle Jesus", "the Prince ofPeace", pleads that the SWORDS were spiritual! If the swords were spiritual, then the"garments" must also be spiritual. If the disciples of Jesus were to sell their SPIRITUAL garments to buy SPIRITUAL swords, in thatcase they would all become SPIRITUALLY naked! Furthermore, one does not lop off peoples physical ears with spiritual swords -

And, behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his SWORD, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and cut off his ear." (Matthew 26:51)

The only purpose of swords or guns is to maim and to kill. People did not carry swords to pare apples and bananas in the time of Christ.

[Riana17]

Salaam Riana17

Well , I don't think this is a good answer to anyone who asks about Jihad, And the above verse is not Jihad.
Jihad Means to struggle and strive and face uncomfortable circumstances in the Cause of God it does not necessarily have to be war.
The above verse promotes killing of enemies and it's contradicts to the teachings of Jesus(P) of Loving your enemies and Praying for those who persecute you. I think the next time anyone asks what Jihad is you should recommend them to ask an Islamic scholar and not any Muslim to not get the wrong idea of what Jihad truly means.

Salaam

Salam Alaikkum

You know sister I would be honest, many people does not respect other's opinion and that is real sad. I am not just sad, but let me control bcoz I have anger management issue especially with proud people.

I hope we can learn to learn to respect each other.

Why judge quickly? Okay when Jesus said KILL, do we think in our right mind a prophet would kill just like that and not for the sake of ALLAH?

My point, nowadays, forget labelling (whether Christian or Atheist), it is general for people to think that Jihad is all about killing, bombing and destroying the WORLD. okay do we think if we tell them Jihad is striving for the sake of Allah and that wearing Hijab is form of Jihad, would they blv? Nah, this is tiring issue, what happened to Norway recently? they call it 9/11 & so on

So my point in this is to show people that killing is not just allowed in ISLAM (in Allah's way, which is way of too much conditions & nowadays i think JIHAD in war does not exist), I would share this verse for them to think twice that NOT ONLY QURAN says KILLING IS allowed, but 1st let them read the bible etc.whatever the story in bible, whatever interpretation they present to me, it is clear, It is in their HOLY BOOK that JESUS thought of KILLING. Dont say this verse is not in BIBLE, it is everywhere in BIBLE.

I was thinking twice to share this video about Muslim & Christian debate, it is really funny i watched it 10times but at the same time it was kinda little rude from our Muslim brother, but I felt he has good intention, and the funny side about it is just a flavour of the debate, but truth remains as it is.

So okay, this is the link & I found it very interesting, why do I have to explain that JIHAD does not mean to harm others, would they listen? I like to revert that Jesus thought of killing as WELL.

As the brother said, the good thing about it is that many MUSLIMS knows the bible more than others.
For example: Eating pork is not allowed but Christian eat pork
Jesus fell his face to the ground & pray.
It is mentioned in the bible that after a (husband & wife) interaction, they cant pray, they should wash before praying

and all of them, who follows it? we Muslims do.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCiMXV9KmNs

[Ramadhan]

The Prophet himself (saws) said that the greatest jihad is the jihad of self, and it is one that I fight every day. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose.

:sl:

for ahadeeth, you have to understand the context.

Rasulullah SAW prescribed different "greatest jihad" to different people in different situations. There are several ahadeeth that deal with the subject of jihad.
When you are oppressed and at war, obviously the best jihad is to go fight your enemies/oppressors.
For example: when germany was declaring war on europe, which was the greatest jihad:
surrender like the french and make everything peaceful for your enemies or fight like the brits?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Riana17;

I think you have to read the whole chapter, and not just the two lines you selected. The title of the passage is ‘The Parable of the Ten Minas’ and parable is a story like an analogy. At the beginning of the parable, the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.
.
I believe that Jesus is giving them an insight of heaven and hell, he tells the story of giving 10 minas to one man, this might be interoperated as ten gifts. If we are given ten gifts to do good deeds with, and we use them to do good deeds, we shall be rewarded in heaven. If we are given these gifts, but do not use them to do good deeds, then we face the prospect of hell.
.
If you are looking for stories of a personal Jihad in the Bible, then you might read Luke 4.I believe that the ‘Temptations of Jesus’ and the forty days in the wilderness is something you might recognise as a kind of Jihad,
.
In the spirit of striving towards God.
Eric

[Riana17]

Greetings and peace be with you Riana17;

I think you have to read the whole chapter, and not just the two lines you selected. The title of the passage is ‘The Parable of the Ten Minas’ and parable is a story like an analogy. At the beginning of the parable, the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.
.
I believe that Jesus is giving them an insight of heaven and hell, he tells the story of giving 10 minas to one man, this might be interoperated as ten gifts. If we are given ten gifts to do good deeds with, and we use them to do good deeds, we shall be rewarded in heaven. If we are given these gifts, but do not use them to do good deeds, then we face the prospect of hell.
.
If you are looking for stories of a personal Jihad in the Bible, then you might read Luke 4.I believe that the ‘Temptations of Jesus’ and the forty days in the wilderness is something you might recognise as a kind of Jihad,
.
In the spirit of striving towards God.
Eric

salam thanks for respecting my views and may Allah reward you for good intention

I know that, but I was referring to violent Jihad people are talking about.

[Hiroshi]

The only purpose of swords or guns is to maim and to kill. People did not carry swords to pare apples and bananas in the time of Christ.

That isn't completely true. Swords could serve in a practical way, for instance, to chop fire wood, and also for a protection against wild animals. If the disciples had to journey to flee from persecution then such things would become necessary.

[May Ayob]

.................................................. .................................................. ..............

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Riana17;

I know that, but I was referring to violent Jihad people are talking about

I think the way violent jihad works is this, someone has evil thoughts and intentions, they know it is wrong, so they try and justify it. They ignore all the passages to love your neighbour, to forgive, be merciful, do not kill, etc.
They keep searching until they find a sentence with the word kill, and use that one sentence out of context, to justify what they want to do.
I cannot find any scriptures for ‘a just war’ in the way that Tony Blair and George Bush, might use to invade Iraq and Afghanistan.
They wanted to do these things, regardless of scriptures saying love and pray for your enemies, somehow they came to the conclusion that God is on our side, and invaded anyway.
God is good, he is the creator of all people, when we kill, then we kill a part of God’s wonderful creation.
In the spirit of searching for a just God.
Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Airforce;

". . . Lord, behold, here are two SWORDS." And he said unto them, "It is enough". (Luke 22:38)

.

Jesus said take the two swords, in order that he could demonstrate how swords should NOT be used.
.

And, behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his SWORD, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and cut off his ear." (Matthew 26:51)

.
Luke 22.
49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.
51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.
.
If Jesus had wanted to win by the sword he could call on legions of Angels to fight his battle, he would not depend on men defending him.
Mathew 26
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”
.

The only purpose of swords or guns is to maim and to kill. People did not carry swords to pare apples and bananas in the time of Christ.

I beleive that Jesus demonstrated that swords should not be used, even when you carry one as sanctioned by Jesus.
In the spirit of searching for a Merciful God.
Eric

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

for ahadeeth, you have to understand the context.

Rasulullah SAW prescribed different "greatest jihad" to different people in different situations. There are several ahadeeth that deal with the subject of jihad.
When you are oppressed and at war, obviously the best jihad is to go fight your enemies/oppressors.
For example: when germany was declaring war on europe, which was the greatest jihad:
surrender like the french and make everything peaceful for your enemies or fight like the brits?

:wa:

Don't misunderstand me, brother. There are times when war is necessary, such as the example that you used above. But for most people, I would say that jihad of self is most-important. If you cannot conquer yourself and fight against your own worldly desires and temptations, how can you fight and win against anyone else?

[May Ayob]

Greetings and Peace be to you brother Eric H

I have a question:
Did Jesus really cut off his ear? Or did I misudnerstand
I am seeking clarification and would deeply appreciate it

[Al-manar]

sorry I confudsed the threads ...my post was intended for another thread


peace

[Eric H]

Blessings and peace be with you May Ayob;
.
Jesus did not carry a sword, if you read the following it says that a companion of Jesus cut of the ear. It also says that Jesus reprimanded the swordsman, and Jesus then healed the ear that was cut off.

Luke 22.
49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.
51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

.

And in Mathew 26, it gives another account of the same story.
.

Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

.
In the spirit of searching for justice for all people,
Eric

[M.I.A.]

so what will happen in the days after death has been removed from the people?

will we still go around with swords and guns in a world similar to a zombie movie?

the post about spiritual swords made me lol, it makes more sense to me than a world of physical swords.. thats not the chicken in me talking.

[Insecured soul]

The Prophet himself (saws) said that the greatest jihad is the jihad of self, and it is one that I fight every day.

Do you have any textual reference for that?

[Who Am I?]

Do you have any textual reference for that?

:sl:

I know I read it in a book somewhere that I've read recently. I can't remember which one, but I'll get back to you on that. Forgive me, but it's late and I am tired. But I will find that reference somewhere.

[Riana17]

My dear sis Riana17
I understand , I know what you mean If people aren't going to change their minds about Islam and going to be stuck in their pre-conceived stereotypes about Islam why should I bother explain and why not give them a similar sentiment in their own religion.. Believe I know what you mean.. But the Prophet peace and Blessings be upon him said: If one of you had a plant in his/her hands and Judgement day arrived then still let him/her plant it. Even if you think it's not worth it , they'll never understand and all these things you should still say what has to be said even if you think no one will listen, you never know.

Don't get angry, anger is a strong negative feeling.. what's their to be angry of? Just because some people don't want to change their minds about what you are preaching doesn't mean you should ever get angry or loose hope.You did your Job and the rest is up to God and them. Have trust in Allah , May Allah protect you from all the evils of this world

I'm sorry if I seemed harsh on you because I didn't intent to do so.

Salaam and Ramadhan Kareem

Salam

I better be mad, prophet Muhammad said being angry is normal, but if one can control he/she will be rewarded.

I am getting really mad only with proud and people who do not respect other's view, I am sorry I am just too blunt

I have a belief, I think before I give advise I must look at myself first and also, PEOPLE doesnt like unwanted advise.

Greetings to you too

[Ramadhan]

Don't misunderstand me, brother. There are times when war is necessary, such as the example that you used above. But for most people, I would say that jihad of self is most-important. If you cannot conquer yourself and fight against your own worldly desires and temptations, how can you fight and win against anyone else?

:sl:

You also misunderstood me I think. As I said, when it comes to deen, we must base on Qur'an and sunnah and should not follow our own opinions/desires (which by the way, is also related to "jihad against nafs")
Rasulullah SAW prescribed different "greater jihad" to different people in different situation. "jihad against nafs" is one of those, but it does not mean it is the greatest jihad for everyone.
I don't have time to look up all ahadeeths that are related to jihad, but on top of my head: the jihad for wives are different, going on hajj is greatest jihad for some people, etc.

[Ramadhan]

Here, I found some:

Aisha, wife of the Prophet(S) asked, "O Messenger of Allah, we see jihad as the best of deeds, so shouldn't we join it?" He replied, "But, the best of jihad is a perfect hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah)." Sahih Al-Bukhari #2784

That was best jihad prescribed to Aisha (ra) in her situation.

At another occasion a man asked the Prophet Muhammad(S):
"Should I join the jihad?" He asked, "Do you have parents?" The man said, "Yes!" The Prophet(S) said, "then strive by (serving) them!" Sahih Al-Bukhari #5972

Yet another man asked the Messenger of Allah: "What kind of jihad is better?" He replied, "A word of truth in front of an oppressive ruler!" Sunan Al-Nasa'i #4209

The Messenger of Allah, Muhammad(S) said:
"... the mujahid (one who carries out jihad) is he who strives against himself for the sake of obeying Allah, and the muhajir (one who emigrates) is he who abandons evil deeds and sin." Sahih Ibn Hibban #4862

"And those who, when an oppressive wrong is inflicted on them, (are not cowed but) fight back." QS. 42:39 To gain this freedom, Prophet Muhammad(S) said: "Strive (jahidu) against the disbelievers with your hands and tongues." Sahih Ibn Hibban #4708

[M.I.A.]

:sl:

You also misunderstood me I think. As I said, when it comes to deen, we must base on Qur'an and sunnah and should not follow our own opinions/desires (which by the way, is also related to "jihad against nafs")
Rasulullah SAW prescribed different "greater jihad" to different people in different situation. "jihad against nafs" is one of those, but it does not mean it is the greatest jihad for everyone.
I don't have time to look up all ahadeeths that are related to jihad, but on top of my head: the jihad for wives are different, going on hajj is greatest jihad for some people, etc.

yes looking back at the post about purse and garments i can understand that.

[May Ayob]

I have a belief, I think before I give advise I must look at myself first and also, PEOPLE doesnt like unwanted advise.

Then I'm sorry and Please accept my deepest apologies for interrupting this thread, I don't want to make anyone hurt or offended because it's Ramadhan soon and I will God willing keep my advice to myself , I probably need it more than anyone.

Thank you for your tolerance
There you go , I deleted all my posts and insha'Allah I promise you this will be the last time you hear from me
Salaam Peace Mercy and Greetings be with you

[MustafaMc]

Jesus is quoted in the Bible as saying:

Matthew 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Luke 22:36 "And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one."

[Riana17]

Then I'm sorry and Please accept my deepest apologies for interrupting this thread, I don't want to make anyone hurt or offended because it's Ramadhan soon and I will God willing keep my advice to myself , I probably need it more than anyone.

Thank you for your tolerance

Salaam Peace Mercy and Greetings be with you

Salam Alaikkum
it is fine with me, I dont keep things in my heart. I can be mad for moment or hour but dontworry I dont want anything bad to anyone

But I hope you agree with me that its not nice to tell people what to do, what is correct and not.

Salam

[May Ayob]

Salaam sister Riana17
I'm sorry but I don't understand; what makes you think I'm proud and don't respect other people's opinion?
All I said is that Jesus PBUH called for Peace and Mercy Love and Forgiveness
I said it's not like Prophet Jesus PBUH to say this, Is this Pride?

I also said; that you becoming angry will not do you or anyone any good.
Is me caring about your health and well-being considered to be pride?

I honestly don't understand why there are many members in this board that have such a terrible impression about me

Salaam

[Amigo]

God does not approuve of violence.
From the beginning, He told Cain that no wise person would go the way of vengeance, for a confirmed killer knows nothing but killing and will only multiply murder, until someone goes sabbatical.

15 And the Lord said to him: No, it shall not so be: but whosoever shall kill Cain, shall be punished sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, that whosoever found him should not kill him

Of course even today, there are many who still don't understand this warning...
However, even by the seventh generation from Cain, someone understood what it meant, but a curse is a curse and so he boasts instead of regreating....

23 And Lamech said to his wives Ada and Sella: Hear my voice, you wives of Lamech, hearken to my speech: for I have slain a man to the wounding of myself, and a stripling to my own bruising. 24 Sevenfold vengeance shall be taken for Cain: but for Lamech seventy times sevenfold.

God had tried to spare Cain and his descendents from ridicule...but sometimes, humans are just bound to make the journey and prouve themselves....
Jesus also tried to spare his disciples from self-ridicule. So as they were all passionately trying to comfort him and showing him all kind of support; him, being Prophet, knew what they were going to do. So he started telling them the future, perhaps in hope that they would save their breath with their empty comforting words/gestures...but they all went ahead, and did what he was predicting.
Yes, I am speaking about that chapter 22 of Luke and similar. He even told those who carried swords (dispite his clear teaching) that they were about to cause him to be counted among the wicked (fulfilling a prophecy- Luke 22:37), but the message clearly didn't get through. Later, he had to restore someone's ear after it was cutt off by one of the swords.

Now, I believe those who wrote those stories down, were trying to spare the reader sfrom going that way. They even took care to include the extra reprimand from Jesus (Matthew 26:52). Sadly enough, many followers of Christ don't get the memo.
Well this thread has been rolling like Luke 22, as Jesus said: "it is enough"-Luke 22:38

This is my humble propositions on Jesus teaching on violence and all misguided agressivity:
For a summary of Jesus message on violence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_Nz6y_nreU
For some details on Christian teaching against violence: http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/_INDEX.HTM

God bless you

[Riana17]

Salaam sister Riana17
I'm sorry but I don't understand; what makes you think I'm proud and don't respect other people's opinion?
All I said is that Jesus PBUH called for Peace and Mercy Love and Forgiveness
I said it's not like Prophet Jesus PBUH to say this, Is this Pride?

I also said; that you becoming angry will not do you or anyone any good.
Is me caring about your health and well-being considered to be pride?

I honestly don't understand why there are many members in this board that have such a terrible impression about me

Salaam

Salam Sister, you've deleted all your post, I dont like to recall bad memories but I want you to pls understand that I get sad & kinda of,, hmm yes mad,, when you are sounding that my post was a big error and I should do this and that, when you didnt hear my side first. I think if you say, "Riana how did you come up with the idea that what you posted is kind of Jihad and so on?"

I dont know about others, pls dont be hard on yourself, we are all having mistakes. I have mentioned I have issue with getting mad quickly sometime and I know I should have patience but I am still working on it. I hope that there is magic but oh well, sad story, it needs time and lots of fasting for me to have better patience.

Salam and Ramadan Mubarak, and i didnt intend to make you feel down, really when I feel bad I have to say it or else I would feel my heart would explode and that's not healthy.

Originally Posted by May Ayob

Salaam Riana17

Well , I don't think this is a good answer to anyone who asks about Jihad, And the above verse is not Jihad.
Jihad Means to struggle and strive and face uncomfortable circumstances in the Cause of God it does not necessarily have to be war.
The above verse promotes killing of enemies and it's contradicts to the teachings of Jesus(P) of Loving your enemies and Praying for those who persecute you. I think the next time anyone asks what Jihad is you should recommend them to ask an Islamic scholar and not any Muslim to not get the wrong idea of what Jihad truly means.

[Pygoscelis]

God does not approve of violence.

Um.... you would have to ignore a LOT of the Bible to come to that conclusion. All throughout the bible God practices violence, ordains violence, and commands violence. He even goes so far to do genocide (Noah's flood) and command genocide (neighbouring tribes of Israel). Jesus himself is a violent human sacrifice that God ordains to be the only way to cleanse man of sin.

You may be able to explain the violence as justifiable, but you can't get away with saying Bible God does not approve of violence, because the opposite is often true.

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

You also misunderstood me I think. As I said, when it comes to deen, we must base on Qur'an and sunnah and should not follow our own opinions/desires (which by the way, is also related to "jihad against nafs")
Rasulullah SAW prescribed different "greater jihad" to different people in different situation. "jihad against nafs" is one of those, but it does not mean it is the greatest jihad for everyone.
I don't have time to look up all ahadeeths that are related to jihad, but on top of my head: the jihad for wives are different, going on hajj is greatest jihad for some people, etc.

:wa:

Yeah I was looking through my copy of the Hadith last night before bed in the Book of Jihad and it does seem like different jihads are given more precedence based on the situation.

For me, Jihad of Self is greatest. I am no warrior.

Matthew 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Also in that same passage:

35 For I have come to turn a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.
37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
40 Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me.

I've always interpreted those verses to mean that Jesus would divide families with his message. I never really thought it was a literal sword. Religion has divided people since the beginning of history and will continue to do so.

[May Ayob]

Well , I don't think this is a good answer to anyone who asks about Jihad, And the above verse is not Jihad

I think the next time anyone asks what Jihad is you should recommend them to ask an Islamic scholar and not any Muslim to not get the wrong idea of what Jihad truly means.

Now I found my fault! Thank you , I'm sorry I didn't know that would hurt you
Please accept my apologies

Friends??

[M.I.A.]

Um.... you would have to ignore a LOT of the Bible to come to that conclusion. All throughout the bible God practices violence, ordains violence, and commands violence. He even goes so far to do genocide (Noah's flood) and command genocide (neighbouring tribes of Israel). Jesus himself is a violent human sacrifice that God ordains to be the only way to cleanse man of sin.

You may be able to explain the violence as justifiable, but you can't get away with saying Bible God does not approve of violence, because the opposite is often true.

violence is due to transgression against gods words/commandments.

i guess a person can free himself of violence if only to see if god would free him also of violence.

Jesus is quoted in the Bible as saying:

Matthew 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Luke 22:36 "And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one."

looking at that, my earlier post seems very wrong.

my mistake.

[Ramadhan]

Um.... you would have to ignore a LOT of the Bible to come to that conclusion. All throughout the bible God practices violence, ordains violence, and commands violence. He even goes so far to do genocide (Noah's flood) and command genocide (neighbouring tribes of Israel). Jesus himself is a violent human sacrifice that God ordains to be the only way to cleanse man of sin. You may be able to explain the violence as justifiable, but you can't get away with saying Bible God does not approve of violence, because the opposite is often true.

I for once agree with you on this.

Christians seem to have this kind of mind disconnect between what is in their bible and what they perceive in mind. Even Jesus killed babies in the OT.

Meanwhile, Islam does not shun from violence because it is a fact of life, and violence is necessary in certain situation. However, in Islam, the use of violence is strictly regulated, for example like in war.

[Tyrion]

Even Jesus killed babies in the OT.

Jesus was in the OT? o.o

[Ramadhan]

Jesus was in the OT? o.o

Majority christians believe jesus is God. and God killed babies in the OT.
I've heard also in this forum, christians express their believe that God in the OT was Jesus.

[Riana17]

I for once agree with you on this.

Christians seem to have this kind of mind disconnect between what is in their bible and what they perceive in mind. Even Jesus killed babies in the OT.

Meanwhile, Islam does not shun from violence because it is a fact of life, and violence is necessary in certain situation. However, in Islam, the use of violence is strictly regulated, for example like in war.

Salam Alaikkum

Wow that is another information, I am really baby when it comes to knowing the bible or Quran. I envy you brother Ramadhan, you could answer most of querries of deen, are you Shaikh or Mulla?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Ramadhan;

Majority christians believe jesus is God. and God killed babies in the OT.
I've heard also in this forum, christians express their believe that God in the OT was Jesus

.
Yes I believe that God and Jesus are 'one' but it may be better for you to ignore my beliefs on this.:hmm:
When God looks at all the injustice, greed, and wars today, I think the only way God could put all things right, is to end mankind today, and start again.
In the Old Testament there are many instances, of God killing off every man woman and children in a city, and of course there was the flood.
I believe in each of these instances mankind had caused so much injustice, that the regrettable solution for God was to end life.
In some societies murderers are condemned to death, it seems that mankind has no other solution, to stop these people killing again.
Unlike a human judge and jury, God will know the intentions and actions of all the people killed in the flood.
This life on Earth is only temporary, and God can put all things right, he can bring all people back to a greater life after death. God is forgiving and merciful, I do not believe that any of us deserve eternal salvation. We rely on the mercy and grace of God to grant us salvation.
.
In the spirit of praying for justice for all people
Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Ramadhan;
.
[QUOTE]

Meanwhile, Islam does not shun from violence because it is a fact of life, and violence is necessary in certain situation. However, in Islam, the use of violence is strictly regulated, for example like in war

.
Although violence is strictly regulated, I do believe the prophet pbuh, preferred forgiveness and getting on with others.
.
When I look at the achievements of mankind, I am in a kind of awe, we put people in space, massive achievements in medicine, buildings, computers, etc, etc.
Yet with all our wonderful knowledge, we are all stupid, when it comes to the little things of living together, with justice for all people.
Sharing and caring are far easier to understand than rocket science, why can we do the rocket science but not the caring and sharing?
A billion people live on less than a dollar a day, people of all religions and no religion. Twenty five thousand children die needlessly every day from grinding poverty. and preventable disease, then there is the stupidity of war.
We are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers. God has given us enough resources for everyone, and I believe we sin against God, when we ignore justice for the poor.
.
In the spirit of praying for justice for all people
Eric

[Who Am I?]

[QUOTE=Eric H;1456136]Greetings and peace be with you Ramadhan;
.

.
Although violence is strictly regulated, I do believe the prophet pbuh, preferred forgiveness and getting on with others.
.
When I look at the achievements of mankind, I am in a kind of awe, we put people in space, massive achievements in medicine, buildings, computers, etc, etc.
Yet with all our wonderful knowledge, we are all stupid, when it comes to the little things of living together, with justice for all people.
Sharing and caring are far easier to understand than rocket science, why can we do the rocket science but not the caring and sharing?
A billion people live on less than a dollar a day, people of all religions and no religion. Twenty five thousand children die needlessly every day from grinding poverty. and preventable disease, then there is the stupidity of war.
We are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers. God has given us enough resources for everyone, and I believe we sin against God, when we ignore justice for the poor.
.
In the spirit of praying for justice for all people
Eric

:sl:

I think most people don't want to believe in God, because by accepting that there is a God, they have to acknowledge that they themselves are not superior, and that there is a moral code in place by which we should guide ourselves. With no God, there is no standard of morality, and therefore you can do whatever you want without regard for anyone or anything else. Denying the existence of God is a way to justify doing whatever you want and not being accountable for your actions, because hey, there is no God and therefore, no sense of justice or morality.

That's my take on why the world is like it is, because we as a creation have turned away from our Creator.

[Perseveranze]

Jesus was in the OT? o.o

Yup, since Christians believe Jesus(pbuh) = God. And the OT was revealed BEFORE,"God" came down to Earth and sacrificed himself for everyone's sins.

[Iconodule]

The situation and the circumstance have changed and as with any wise and able general, the strategy must also change. The disciples were already armed. They had some foresight. They had not left Galilee with bare knuckles. They responded


". . . Lord, behold, here are two SWORDS." And he said unto them, "It is enough". (Luke 22:38)

"It is enough" being the key words here. Two swords are enough for what? Defending Jesus, his 12 apostles, and the other disciples? I assure you the Pharisees and the Romans had more than 2 swords at their disposal. This is a case of the disciples misunderstanding Jesus, taking his words too literally, hence he says "it is enough."

The missionary, so as to retain the impression of the "meek and gentle Jesus", "the Prince ofPeace", pleads that the SWORDS were spiritual! If the swords were spiritual, then the"garments" must also be spiritual. If the disciples of Jesus were to sell their SPIRITUAL garments to buy SPIRITUAL swords, in thatcase they would all become SPIRITUALLY naked!

St. Ambrose gives one of several interpretations- that the garment refers to the body and the sword refers to martyrdom. In other words, the disciples must prepare to lay aside their "garments" (their bodies) and accept martyrdom.

And, behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his SWORD, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and cut off his ear." (Matthew 26:51)

The only purpose of swords or guns is to maim and to kill. People did not carry swords to pare apples and bananas in the time of Christ.

The swords had in fact been used in slaying and dressing the paschal lamb previously eaten by the apostles. And you forget to mention that Christ immediately admonishes Peter and heals the servant's ear.

John 18:36: "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

[Ramadhan]

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.
After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem."

Luke 19: 27 - 28

I can't wait for a christian to come here and say it's a parable.

Basically for christians, anything Jesus said or did that doesn't conform with their own beliefs/tradition/current opinion/current society trend, they would claim it's all parable, meaningless, and/or actually means the opposite.

Not much has changed since the pagan latins tweaked jesus (pbuh) actual teachings to conform to their own pagan beliefs.

[Iconodule]

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.
After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem."

Luke 19: 27 - 28

I can't wait for a christian to come here and say it's a parable.
.

Read the quote in its context yourself, and you can tell us whether it's a parable or not:

¹²He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. ¹³And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
¹⁴But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
¹⁵And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
¹⁶Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
¹⁷And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
¹⁸And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
¹⁹And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
²⁰And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
²¹For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
²²And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
²³Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
²⁴And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
²⁵(And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
²⁶For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
²⁷But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
²⁸And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.

[Iconodule]

Pardon me, I omitted verse 11, at the beginning:

¹¹And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

[Ramadhan]

Read the quote in its context yourself, and you can tell us whether it's a parable or not:

As I have suspected, no sooner than I said I expected a christian to come up it's all parable, one actually did :)

Let's say the story that Jesus (pbuh) was a parable, and for anyone who can read english, it was clear that Jesus (pbuh) identified himself with the Lord in the story, and that he approved with the slaying and killing of his enemies, otherwise why would he bother saying the last part if he had not approved.

[Iconodule]

Let's say the story that Jesus (pbuh) was a parable,

No need for us to say it, the gospel already does: "he added and spake a parable."

and for anyone who can read english, it was clear that Jesus (pbuh) identified himself with the Lord in the story

He also identifies himself as the True Vine. Is he really a plant?

[FS123]

If someone wants to kill you, why wait for them to come and take you by suprise, instead just gather them and end it.

Is that hard to comprehend?

He has a point, and this is not Islamic concept of Jihad.

[Ramadhan]

He also identifies himself as the True Vine. Is he really a plant?

Do you think Jesus (p) disagreed with killing the enemies as done by the Lord in the parable?

Because to me, it is clear that he did.

[Iconodule]

Do you think Jesus (p) disagreed with killing the enemies as done by the Lord in the parable?

Because to me, it is clear that he did.

The Lord's parable is referring to the last judgment where he will certainly condemn the unbelievers to eternal death (Hell). The Lord's first coming was meek and forbearing, but his return will be terrible. We are to pattern our lives after his first appearance, and leave the judgment to God.

God commands us as human beings to love our enemies, pray for our persecutors, and be long-suffering. Unfortunately there are some "Christians" who have agreed with your interpretation and who argue that Christians have a duty to murder unbelievers. As a result, many innocent Muslims and people of other faiths have been murdered.

[Amigo]

Do you think Jesus (p) disagreed with killing the enemies as done by the Lord in the parable?

Do you know/remember why parables were used by Jesus?:)

[truthseeker63]

This is a good topic.

[Ramadhan]

The Lord's parable is referring to the last judgment where he will certainly condemn the unbelievers to eternal death (Hell). The Lord's first coming was meek and forbearing, but his return will be terrible. We are to pattern our lives after his first appearance, and leave the judgment to God.

I couldn't see any references to the last judgement in that passage.

And based on your theory of that verse, either way, Jesus actually doesn't love everybody, something that christians keep claiming.

[Ramadhan]

Do you know/remember why parables were used by Jesus?

Since you claim to know the language and the mind of Jesus (pbuh) please explain to me the meaning of that parable where he mentioned that the lord wanted to gather his enemies and kill them all?

Also, I would like to know exactly the original words that Jesus (pbuh) actually used in this passage.

[Iconodule]

I couldn't see any references to the last judgement in that passage.

As a parable, it uses figurative language, like the parables of the vineyard and the wicked husbandmen.

And based on your theory of that verse, either way, Jesus actually doesn't love everybody, something that christians keep claiming.

Even the sinners in Hell he loves, but it is their choice to be separated from them, and he will not destroy our free will.

[Iconodule]

Here is a representative interpretation of the passage, by St. Theophan the Recluse:

The parable of the ten pounds portrays the entire history of mankind until the second coming of Christ. In it the Lord speaks of Himself, of His sufferings, death, and resurrection to the Heavenly Father, to reign over mankind—all of which is His birthright. Those who remain on the earth are divided into two parts: servants, serving the Lord through obedience to the faith, and those who do not want to have Him as king and serve Him, because of their unbelief. To those who approach the Lord through faith, with a readiness to serve Him, are given the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the holy mysteries: this is a pound—and every person numbered amongst the believers receives it for serving. When everyone from the human race capable of submitting to the Lord submits to Him, then He will come again, as One who has received the Kingdom. His first job will be to judge among the servants: who acquired what with the grace given. Then will follow judgment also over those who did not want to have Him as king; that is who either did not believe, or who fell from faith. Imprint these truths in your mind and do not lose attention to them, for then there will be a decision—do not expect any changes. Flee unbelief, neither believe idly, but bring forth the fruits of faith. Finding you faithful over a few things, the Lord will make you ruler over many things (cf. Matt. 25:21).

[Iconodule]

On a side note, Ramadhan, what is depicted in your profile picture? I'm not sure but it reminds me of glutinous rice wrapped in leaves

[Ramadhan]

Here is a representative interpretation of the passage, by St. Theophan the Recluse:

Nice interpretation, but are there any other authentic narration (from Jesus pbuh himself) that support this interpretation? I'll give you a comparison: When someone make a tafseer (interpretation) of a Qur'an verse, they need to back it up with other Qur'an verses and authentic ahadeeth.

By the way, I have often heard christians claim that Jesus (pbuh) loves everyone. Is this true and do you agree with this?

On a side note, Ramadhan, what is depicted in your profile picture? I'm not sure but it reminds me of glutinous rice wrapped in leaves

It's ketupat. Not only glutinous rice, but mostly just ordinary rice. My mornings often start with dishes incorporating ketupat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketupat

[Ramadhan]

Even the sinners in Hell he loves, but it is their choice to be separated from them, and he will not destroy our free will.

So Jesus pbuh loves sinners so much he burns and tortures them in hell?

Is this the same love that Hitler had for the jews that he couldn't wait to torture and kill them?

As a parable, it uses figurative language, like the parables of the vineyard and the wicked husbandmen.

In christianity, who decides which one is parable and which one is not?

[Iconodule]

Nice interpretation, but are there any other authentic narration (from Jesus pbuh himself) that support this interpretation? I'll give you a comparison: When someone make a tafseer (interpretation) of a Qur'an verse, they need to back it up with other Qur'an verses and authentic ahadeeth.

It's a good question. I'm not really qualified to answer it. Generally our very rough equivalent to your ahadeeth is apostolic tradition, as expressed in the writings of the Fathers of the Church and its hymns. If a given interpretation is shared by many Fathers it is almost certain to be of apostolic provenance. And, like you might turn to respected Islamic scholars who have devoted a lifetime to study, we might seek the advice of trusted Orthodox bishops or experienced monks regarding certain matters. I do not at the moment have access to the relevant patristic writings on this particular parable. I can say however that there are many parables in the Gospels (the ten virgins; the ten talents, etc.) which refer figuratively to the spiritual life and also the last judgment. The parable of the talents (Matthew 25: 14-29) is especially appropriate to compare with this parable of the ten minas.

¹⁴For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
¹⁵And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
¹⁶Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
¹⁷And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
¹⁸But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
¹⁹After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
²⁰And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
²¹His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
²²He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
²³His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
²⁴Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
²⁵And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
²⁶His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
²⁷Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
²⁸Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
²⁹For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Then Christ proceeds immediately to telling about his return:

³¹When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

³²And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
³³And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
³⁴Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
³⁵For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
³⁶Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
³⁷Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
³⁸When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
³⁹Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
⁴⁰And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
⁴¹Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
⁴²For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
⁴³I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
⁴⁴Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
⁴⁵Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
⁴⁶And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

There is also this parable from Luke 12:

³⁷Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
³⁸And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
³⁹And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
⁴⁰Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
⁴¹Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
⁴²And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
⁴³Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
⁴⁴Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
⁴⁵But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
⁴⁶The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
⁴⁷And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
⁴⁸But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

It is clear also that Jesus never commanded anyone to kill for his sake. When Saint Peter attacked the priest's servant (Luke 22:49-51) Jesus immediately rebuked him and healed the servant's ear. He said "My kingdom is not of this world" and therefore the disciples would not take up arms for him.

By the way, I have often heard christians claim that Jesus (pbuh) loves everyone. Is this true and do you agree with this?

It's ketupat. Not only glutinous rice, but mostly just ordinary rice. My mornings often start with dishes incorporating ketupat.

Okay, my mom was Malaysian Chinese and we had this from time to time.

[Iconodule]

Please excuse the double post: moderator can delete the last one.

[Iconodule]

So Jesus pbuh loves sinners so much he burns and tortures them in hell?

He loves them so much that he respects their free choice to turn away from him.

Is this the same love that Hitler had for the jews that he couldn't wait to torture and kill them?

I don't agree with you that God's punishment of sinners is comparable to Hitler's holocaust.

In christianity, who decides which one is parable and which one is not?

Are you still denying that it is a parable? I have already given you the passage from the Gospel where it plainly says that Jesus was speaking a parable.

Jesus was never an earthly king so of course he is speaking figuratively.

[Ramadhan]

It's a good question. I'm not really qualified to answer it. Generally our very rough equivalent to your ahadeeth is apostolic tradition, as expressed in the writings of the Fathers of the Church and its hymns

I don't think you understand what ahadeeth is.

ahadeeth are collections of direct sayings and actions of prophet Muhammad SAW. Authentic ahadeeth are collections ahadeeth whose narraters and transmitter are known, and whose characters of each narrator and transmitters have been vetted must not tell a lie, and whose contant (mat'an) must not against qur'an.

the four gospels are similar to ahadeeth.

The difference:
1. while every single transmitters of ahadeeth are known, transmitters of gospels are not known.
2. while the original ahadeeth (in arabic) survived, while none of originals of gospels did not survive.
3. while the narrators of ahadeeth are known and their life are known to the little details, the authors of gospels are not known.

If we had anything like gospels, it would have been rejected as maudu (fabrication) and/or weak, and so muslims only take authentic ahadeeth (hasan or shahih).

If a given interpretation is shared by many Fathers it is almost certain to be of apostolic provenance. And, like you might turn to respected Islamic scholars who have devoted a lifetime to study, we might seek the advice of trusted Orthodox bishops or experienced monks regarding certain matters. I do not at the moment have access to the relevant patristic writings on this particular parable. I can say however that there are many parables in the Gospels (the ten virgins; the ten talents, etc.) which refer figuratively to the spiritual life and also the last judgment. The parable of the talents (Matthew 25: 14-29) is especially appropriate to compare with this parable of the ten minas.

I am not asking about other parables. I am asking about THAT (Luke) particular parable, and back up narration to prove your claim that Jesus did not approve of Lord killing his enemies.
in that parable, Jesus said that his Enemies should be Brought in front of him and Slaughtered ...

It is clear also that Jesus never commanded anyone to kill for his sake.

Really? You obviously have never even opened your bible. There are many instances in the bible where Jesus not only approved of commanded to kill babies, women, men, etc:

Deuteronomy 2:32-37
And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us

Deuteronomy 3:1-7
1 Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei. 2 And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. 3 So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining. 4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. 6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. 7 But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves

Deuteronomy 7:1-6
1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girga****es, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth

1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.

Should I go on?
It will fill this thread for ages to come if I have to write how Jesus killed and murdered and commanded people to kill babies, rape women, etc.

He said "My kingdom is not of this world" and therefore the disciples would not take up arms for him.

Really?
Here's what Jesus specifically said:

"He said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. (Luke 22:36)"

[Ramadhan]

He loves them so much that he respects their free choice to turn away from him.

I don't think you really thought through what you are saying.

Jesus will burn and torture people in hell. I am not talking about now.

I don't agree with you that God's punishment of sinners is comparable to Hitler's holocaust.

So you agree that Jesus punished sinners?

Are you still denying that it is a parable? I have already given you the passage from the Gospel where it plainly says that Jesus was speaking a parable.

Where did I deny it was a parable?
I want to know who decides which ones are parable which ones are not because it seems in most cases it's very arbitrary.

Jesus was never an earthly king so of course he is speaking figuratively.

So Jesus will also not be a leader on earth during his second coming?

[Daniel Hoseiny]

Should I go on?
It will fill this thread for ages to come if I have to write how Jesus killed and murdered and commanded people to kill babies, rape women, etc.

If God would command people of that time to love their enemies, it would be surely too difficult for them to fulfil. Notice that God restricts the violence of humans against humans (for example ‘eye for eye’, or ‘ tooth for tooth’; but not ‘you can kill someone if you don’t like him’ (this was characteristic for many of the pagan cultures), for example). If the Law of Moses was too difficult for the people of that time to fulfil (the OT describes it constantly in its books), then how more difficult would the commandments of Jesus appear for those people? The commandment of love towards the enemies is a superhuman one (too difficult for a fallen man), and therefore can be fulfilled through the help of God’s grace. The NT / teaching of Jesus is the fullness of God’s Revelation, delivered to the mankind in time that God finds the most appropriate one. Nothing is morally higher than the Gospel.:)

[Daniel Hoseiny]

It will fill this thread for ages to come if I have to write how Jesus... commanded people to... rape women, etc.

??? Where is this written?

[Predator]

??? Where is this written?

They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man........Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:7,17-18)"


How else would they have verify whether they have slept with a man without raping them and checking if the hymen is torn or not and they had found 32000 such women

And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lyingwith him. Number {31:36}

[Daniel Hoseiny]

It is certainly not true because it would contradict the Lord’s commandment

“Thou shalt not commit adultery” (Exodus 20) And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. (Leviticus 20)

Roughly speaking adultery is having sex with a woman who is not your own wife. I’m sure it wouldn’t be difficult for them to discern the married woman from the virgin by looking at the expression / appearance of face, eyes, and bodily movements for example. There is a difference in this sense between some married man or woman and the virgin who has never experienced sex.
It’s also clear that they could use the virgins as the maidservants, or may be even marry them if they would accept the right faith.

[Ramadhan]

It is certainly not true because it would contradict the Lord’s commandment

Well, Jesus also broke his own command not to kill by commanding people to kill babies and women too.

Why are christians such a bunch of selective readers?
The amount of cognitive dissonance is unbelievable.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Roughly speaking adultery is having sex with a woman who is not your own wife. I’m sure it wouldn’t be difficult for them to discern the married woman from the virgin by looking at the expression / appearance of face, eyes, and bodily movements for example. There is a difference in this sense between some married man or woman and the virgin who has never experienced sex.
It’s also clear that they could use the virgins as the maidservants, or may be even marry them if they would accept the right faith.

Do you really believe what you just wrote?

;D

[Iconodule]

"[I]f you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." This passage was already discussed a page or two back so I don't want to go in circles. Regarding the Old Testament killings, I suppose I could discuss here the very important changes wrought in man's relationship to God, between the Old Testament and the New Testament, but it seems to me you are not particularly interested in what Christians actually believe. All the same, Ramadhan, may God give you peace, and I congratulate you on yet another crushing forum victory.

[Ali_008]

Brother Iconodule, it is not a matter of victory or defeat. It is all about letting truth prevail and so it does every time. The motive of having discussions on this forum is not Muslims gaining victory over Non-Muslims. The conversations that take place here are all meant to present Islam crystal clearly not only to Non-Muslims but also to Muslims. Don't consider us your enemies. Of course during our debates, all of us get a little vehement and get carried away and react angrily but at the end of the day the Muslims only want to clear the allegations against Islam and prove it to the world what it really is i.e. the religion of peace.

If you feel Brother Ramadhan has left you speechless then instead of admitting defeat, take it as realization of truth. We are not at war here that we must have a winner. Your realization of truth will be bigger than any worldly victory for all of us. And just like the beloved Prophets (peace be upon them all), nobody's asking anything from you in return for it.

""But if ye turn back, (consider): no reward have I asked of you: my reward is only due from Allah, and I have been commanded to be of those who submit to Allah's will (in Islam)."

Surah Yunus (10) Verse 72

[Iconodule]

Brother Iconodule, it is not a matter of victory or defeat. It is all about letting truth prevail and so it does every time. The motive of having discussions on this forum is not Muslims gaining victory over Non-Muslims. The conversations that take place here are all meant to present Islam crystal clearly not only to Non-Muslims but also to Muslims. Don't consider us your enemies.

Thank you Ali. Certainly I consider none of you enemies. I too am not interested in victory or defeat, but truth, which is why I am not interested in pointless back-and-forths which are typical of internet forums, producing much heat but no light. As I mentioned earlier there are some very ignorant people I have encountered, both online and off, who claim that Muslims worship a "moon god." I'm sure you've run into this too. At a certain point I back away from arguing with them, just as I back away from anyone who is so deeply committed to distortion and hostile posturing that no rational argument will move his heart. Is it because they left me "speechless" by the power of Truth? Is it because Muslims really do worship this "moon god"? Certainly not. There are only so many hours in the day and I cannot spend all of them arguing with every dishonest person on the internet.

God be with you.

[Ramadhan]

"[I]f you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." This passage was already discussed a page or two back so I don't want to go in circles. Regarding the Old Testament killings, I suppose I could discuss here the very important changes wrought in man's relationship to God, between the Old Testament and the New Testament, but it seems to me you are not particularly interested in what Christians actually believe. All the same, Ramadhan, may God give you peace, and I congratulate you on yet another crushing forum victory.

You said Jesus (p) never asked his disciples to take up arms, and I have shown you a verse from the bible where Jesus (p) clearly told his disciples to buy swords. You said Jesus never commanded people to kill on his behalf, and I have shown you countless verses from the bible where he commanded people to kill babies and women.

And I am interested to show christians that what they actually believe are clearly against what their bible says.

Either christians follow what their bible says or admit that there is something really wrong with their bible.

[Ramadhan]

Thank you Ali. Certainly I consider none of you enemies. I too am not interested in victory or defeat, but truth, which is why I am not interested in pointless back-and-forths which are typical of internet forums, producing much heat but no light. As I mentioned earlier there are some very ignorant people I have encountered, both online and off, who claim that Muslims worship a "moon god." I'm sure you've run into this too. At a certain point I back away from arguing with them, just as I back away from anyone who is so deeply committed to distortion and hostile posturing that no rational argument will move his heart. Is it because they left me "speechless" by the power of Truth? Is it because Muslims really do worship this "moon god"? Certainly not. There are only so many hours in the day and I cannot spend all of them arguing with every dishonest person on the internet.

lol. not another moon god?

It seems you are so fixated with the moon god analogy. So could you please show us from Qur'an and as sunnah (ahadeeth) to back up their claim that muslims worship moon god?

And if you think that muslims in this forum are like those christians who claim muslim worship moon god, then it seems you cannot stomach the truth.

If you read every single post in this section written by muslims about christians, it is always backed up by christians' own bible verses, meanwhile the moon god crowd can never produce one single verse to back up their claim.

We are here to speak about and discuss the truth. We are here to separate truth from falsehoods, we are not here to mix them up.
(eg. in another thread about peacock and snake story, you claimed it was ok to tell fabricated stories about Allah swt). If truth is the lowest of your priority, you can always go straight to the puzzle and humour section or creative writing and art section. I am sure the sections wouold be more receptive to the fabricated pagan story about multiple personality god who split himself into 3.

[Predator]

"[I]f you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." This passage was already discussed a page or two back so I don't want to go in circles.

Jesus has commanded killing of children who curse their parents and you say Jesus doesnt preach killing ?

Mathew 15:4

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.


Here we see Jesus rebuking the Jews who were not following this command, that those who curse their parents should be killed, rather the Jews made up their own man made laws. As you can see, Jesus was very angry with them for not following this law, and brought it to their attention, it is very obvious that Jesus still believed in this law and believed in carrying it out.

Christians often like to claim that the Torah laws are no longer to be followed; these verses completely refute that notion. If Jesus wanted to abrogate the Torah law on the punishment of children cursing their parents, he could have easily ended that commandment right there and then, but rather what we see is that he is very angry that the Jews have not followed this ruling.
So we must ask the Christians, why don’t they follow this law, and why don’t they ever tell us that Jesus believed in this law as well. It seems they are ashamed, and it also seems they are shy, and it also seems that they are so caught up in their own lies and inventions they created on Jesus that they can no longer escape it.

[Amigo]

Some beliefs are punishments in themselves.

[Ramadhan]

Some beliefs are punishments in themselves.

Are you saying christians are being punished?
For what crime(s)?

[Ramadhan]

Jesus has commanded killing of children who curse their parents and you say Jesus doesnt preach killing ?

Mathew 15:4

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Wait till a christian come and say it's all parable :D

It seems whenever Jesus said or did something that christians do not like, it's all parable, but when Jesus said something that appeals to the pagan latin belief such as "father and I are one" or "son of god', it's all literal.

[Amigo]

Jesus has commanded killing of children who curse their parents and you say Jesus doesnt preach killing ?

Mathew 15:4

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

"let them die" is not the same as "kill them".

People insist on self-destruction all the time. God just lets it happen, for he is just.

Bible was meant for Christians. As non-Christian, you should seek good Christian guidance otherwise one of those 'let x happen to them' will apply to you.
As you can see, you are getting the meaning you want it to mean..obviously because God lets it happen.

God is just. He lets people have it according to their hearts desire.
Those who wish good receive accordingly, those who wish bad receive accordingly, impecable justice.

Be careful what you wish for, you may get it.
Pray God that you may wish always what is good.

[Ramadhan]

"let them die" is not the same as "kill them".

Everyone dies. Jesus specifically told that the disobedient children must die.

God let people die because of their own desobediance, He kills no one

Amigo, how many times have i told you to open your bible?

Here's a sneak preview of your bible where God of bible commands to kill women and children:

1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

I am sure you are very aware of those who blow themselves up on regular basis. It does not matter how much they repeat to themselves that God send them to kill, the fact is, they are killing themselves.

Of course I am aware, amigo my friend. You don't have to teach me history lesson of christianity, I learn and read about them from western sources too you know.
I understand that more people killed in the past 2,000 years by christians who claimed they were sent by god than by followers of any other religions COMBINED. I learned the history of the crusades, the inquisition, the population wipe out of latin and north america, etc etc. I understand that those killers claimed they were sent by bible god and that they only followed what bible says (something which you are not doing apparently).

[Amigo]

Amigo, how many times have i told you to open your bible?

When you gain some authority to tell me what to do, and teach me about the bible, let me know. Even many of those who pretend to be Christians don't know what the bible is, how much worse for non-Christians!
Only Jesus can open Scripture. The OT is closed to anyone outside the Temple. They can't read while in darkness. They can't even be helped to read while they are outside in the outer darkness. For light is only inside, those who are outside can only exercise their imagination and delight in the violence worthy of darkness. Death and pain reign in darkness where there is stumbling. In light, people see, there is no stumbling, no hurt, no bumbing, no death.

As about childreen and their parents, you can't know about them while you don't even believe in the Father and the Son. You can't cheat God.

[Ramadhan]

When you gain some authority to tell me what to do, and teach me about the bible, let me know. Even many of those who pretend to be Christians don't know what the bible is, how much worse for non-Christians!

I understand how it must be humiliating for you when a person not from your religion tell you to open your bible because you have no idea what's in it and because you believe that you must not open and read it.
I agree with you that most christians have no idea even what bible is, if only more christians read their bible, they would have been a lot more ex-christians.

Only Jesus can open Scripture. The OT is closed to anyone outside the Temple. They can't read while in darkness. They can't even be helped to read while they are outside in the outer darkness. For light is only inside, those who are outside can only exercise their imagination and delight in the violence worthy of darkness. Death and pain reign in darkness where there is stumbling. In light, people see, there is no stumbling, no hurt, no bumbing, no death.

Who told you this? holy spirit? jesus? the pope? your priest?

By the way, beware of popes and priests, they are like false prophets. If you want, I'll give you articles about them to read.

As about childreen and their parents, you can't know about them while you don't even believe in the Father and the Son. You can't cheat God.

I don't believe in a schizophrenic God, I believe in One true God.
Also, why do christians usually only mention the son? and sometimes the father, but rarely mention the third one. Poor him.

Muslims do not believe we can cheat god, but jews and christians believe that man can win a debate with God, and a man won a wrestling man with god (read the OT part of your bible).