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primate
09-03-2011, 04:56 PM
I am a Muslim convert.

Circumcision isn't mentioned in the Qur'an.. I know it is mentioned in the ahadith, but of course, many things are mentioned in the ahadith. Including female circumcision.. but no way am I allowing that on my children.

I love Islam and I love Muhammed (pbuh) and I wish to follow him but circumcision is the one thing which I feel dubious about. Doesn't Allah (swt) want us to collectively worship him, but in our own way?

I can't help but feel circumcision is a cultural thing. I have no view on whether circumcision is good in Islam or bad in Islam, but I just want to do what I feel is right, and that is not to circumcise any of my children.

Would this have any implications? I can imagine in the future one of my son's whipping his thing out for the first time with his wife and she's like.. "what is this?" lol.
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primate
09-03-2011, 05:07 PM
I forgot to mention..
Maybe I should not have created this thread. Let me say that there is 100% no way that I am allowing any of my children to be circumcised. The only chance it will happen is if they grow older and decide it for themselves. I am a very nature-loving person and the Qur'an backs me up on this.. "We have indeed created man in the 'best of moulds'." (Qur'an 95:4)

I have huge respect for Muslims who are circumcised because they do so to honour Muhammed (pbuh), but I also hope that Muslims can respect me and my Muslim children who will not be circumcised, as it is what I believe and is my own way of worshipping Allah (swt) and his perfect creation.
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aadil77
09-03-2011, 05:23 PM
Actually you don't really have a choice, this is not something that was created by Prophet Muhammad, its a law that has been around since the time of Prophet Abraham, which is why all jews are also circumsised.

Also you're making this sound like a bad thing, circumcision is best for cleanliness and protection against diseases, its just like cutting your nails. Also we don't do things to honour the prophet muhammad but only to please and obey Allah.
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Ghazalah
09-03-2011, 05:28 PM
Edit the end of your first post, that's disgusting. <_<

Even non-Muslims nowadays are doing because of the health issue that arises later on. It's best to do when they're new-born. I'm sure they'll grow up and forget. :rolleyes:
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-03-2011, 05:41 PM
As'Salaam Alaaykum

format_quote Originally Posted by primate
I love Islam and I love Muhammed (pbuh) and I wish to follow him
Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Al Qur'aan 3:31]


format_quote Originally Posted by primate
but I also hope that Muslims can respect me and my Muslim children who will not be circumcised, as it is what I believe and is my own way of worshipping Allah (swt) and his perfect creation.
If you have your own way of worshipping, isnt that then 'your' own way? When Allaah (SWT) already told us how he wants us to worship him, through Qur'aan and ahadeeth? you have to realise that what ever Allaah forbade is for our own safety and what he allowed is for our good. There is no harm in what he allowed. It is only something good.

Also you asked the question, what is the reason to ask if you do not wish to go ahead according to the answer? There must have been a reason, you made it to the forum to ask and needed a sincere answer, therefore you recieved the answers.

I apologise if ive said anything harsh, my intention was not to sound harsh even though it may have come across that way.

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جوري
09-03-2011, 06:15 PM
female circumcision isn't part of Islamic practice. I hope you WILL NOT subject your female children to that!
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M.B
09-03-2011, 06:21 PM
:sl:

I hope this helps inshAllah http://http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/2425/circumcised

and http://http://www.islam-qa.com/en/search/circumcised/AllWords/t,q,a


:w:
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Kabeer
09-03-2011, 06:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jεώel oғ ωïѕdoм
As'Salaam Alaaykum



Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Al Qur'aan 3:31]




If you have your own way of worshipping, isnt that then 'your' own way? When Allaah (SWT) already told us how he wants us to worship him, through Qur'aan and ahadeeth? you have to realise that what ever Allaah forbade is for our own safety and what he allowed is for our good. There is no harm in what he allowed. It is only something good.

Also you asked the question, what is the reason to ask if you do not wish to go ahead according to the answer? There must have been a reason, you made it to the forum to ask and needed a sincere answer, therefore you recieved the answers.

I apologise if ive said anything harsh, my intention was not to sound harsh even though it may have come across that way.
Salaam,
Allah swt has not told us things through Ahadeeth Be careful in your words please.

And the lady who creased this thread, I guess she is just looking to see if there are those that would support her.

See this: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...=1731&CATE=115

SO to the original poster, you should see that circumcision is part of Monotheism. No one HAS to do anything, rather we do it out of choice. That is the point of this world of Free will from Allah. If you wish to give your children the choice, then that is up to you.
All we can do is earnestly search for truth, reject falsity, and purify ourselves for our Lord.

Peace
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Kabeer
09-03-2011, 06:31 PM
Salaam,
format_quote Originally Posted by Ghazalah
Edit the end of your first post, that's disgusting. <_<
Really? Disgusting for a wife to see her husbands awrah?
It is in the Quran from Allah that husbands and wives can see each other's awrah. And it is of course natural.

Peace
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-03-2011, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kabeer
Allah swt has not told us things through Ahadeeth Be careful in your words please.
Wa Alaaykum As'Salaam

I apologise for my mistakes. jazakallaahu khaayr for pointing this out.

I should have said Allaah and his messenger (saw).
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primate
09-03-2011, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jεώel oғ ωïѕdoм
If you have your own way of worshipping, isnt that then 'your' own way? When Allaah (SWT) already told us how he wants us to worship him, through Qur'aan and ahadeeth? you have to realise that what ever Allaah forbade is for our own safety and what he allowed is for our good. There is no harm in what he allowed. It is only something good.

Also you asked the question, what is the reason to ask if you do not wish to go ahead according to the answer? There must have been a reason, you made it to the forum to ask and needed a sincere answer, therefore you recieved the answers.

I apologise if ive said anything harsh, my intention was not to sound harsh even though it may have come across that way.
The question wasn't about circumcision itself, but how the Muslim community reacts to Muslims that aren't circumcised. There is a growing community of Muslims who are against circumcision, it is an element of culture that has made its way into Islam. The Qur'an is very clear on the matter - Allah (swt) made humans perfect, and in my eyes there is no difference between male/female circumcision, both are mutilation of Allah's (swt) creation:

"You will not see any flaw in what the Lord of Mercy creates." (Qur'an 67:3)

Like I previously said.. I am a very nature loving person and I believe that things should be left "as is". Indeed science has shown us the many uses of the foreskin which Allah (swt) placed on the human body for a purpose

  • ✔ Ridged Bands. The inner foreskin contains bands of densely innervated, sexually responsive tissue. They constitute a primary erogenous zone of the human penis and are important for realizing the fullness and intensity of sexual response.
  • ✔ Specialized sensory tissue. In addition to the 'ridged bands' mentioned above, thousands of coiled fine-touch receptors (Meissner’s corpuscles) constitute the most important sensory component of the penis. The foreskin contains branches of the dorsal nerve and between 10,000 and 20,000 specialized erotogenic nerve endings of several types, which are capable of sensing slight motion and stretch, subtle changes in temperature, and fine gradations in texture. Thus, up to 20,000 nerve endings are removed by circumcision. Note that the most sensitive part of the penis is the tip of the foreskin (the transitional region from external to internal prepuce). This part is always removed in circumcisions.
  • ✔ Protection. The sleeve of tissue (foreskin) normally covers the sensitive glans and protects it from abrasion, drying, callusing (keratinization), and environmental contaminants. The inner lining of the foreskin consists of soft mucosa lubrication layer, like behind one's eyelids, or the inner lips, thus protecting the sensitive glans from abrasion. The glans (concealed in the picture) is intended to be a protected internal organ, like the female clitoris. The internal glans are highly sensitive, but after circumcision, begins to loose its sensitivity through abrasion in diaper and underwear. For the first few weeks, it is very painful to the touch of fabric or diaper. It is similar to the human eyeball, which is protected by the eye lids. One would not touch the eyeballs directly but over the eyelids only - it is that sensitive. After circumcision, the exposed glans begins to dry-out and keratinize (builds hardened cell layer on the outside as a defence from environmental contaminants).
  • In normal activity during adult life, even after loosing most of the sensitivity through abrasion post-circumcision, the abrasion/chafing of the glans against underwear without the protection of the foreskin causes constant, irritating 'abrasive' feelings. This is very uncomfortable in reality for the adult male. However, as the procedure is usually done at childhood and the discomfort is consistent from then on, the brain learns to cope with it by suppressing these feelings. Nevertheless, a conscious effort can reveal this discomfort during adulthood and all circumcised males have it.
  • ✔ The Frenulum. A Frenulum is a small fold of tissue that secures or restricts the motion of a mobile organ to the body. Frenulums can be found under the tongue and on the inside of the human lips. On the human penis, a Frenulum connects the foreskin to the glans to pull the foreskin over the glans when not aroused in order to protect it. This Frenulum is a highly nerve-laden web of tissue.
  • ✔ Proper blood flow. The foreskin contains several feet of blood vessels, including the frenular artery and branches of the dorsal artery. The loss of this rich vascularization interrupts normal blood flow to the shaft and glans of the penis, damaging the natural function of the penis and altering its development.
✔ Immunological defense. The soft mucosa of the inner foreskin produces plasma cells, which secrete immunoglobulin antibodies, and antibacterial and antiviral proteins, such as the pathogen-killing enzyme called lysozyme. All of the human mucosa (the linings of the mouth, eyelids, vagina, foreskin and anus) are the body's first line of defense against disease. This benefit of the foreskin could be one possible explanation why intact men are at lower risk of chlamydia and other sexually transmitted diseases.
✔ Gliding action. The foreskin is the only moving part of the penis. During any sexual activity, the foreskin and glans work in unison; their mutual interaction creates a complete sexual response. During intercourse, the non-abrasive gliding of the penis in and out of itself within the vagina facilitates smooth and pleasurable intercourse for both partners. Circumcision not just involves cutting away, but stitching all around the foreskin permanently to the shaft. Thus foreskin cannot glide any more and makes the circumcised penis a static organ.
The shaft/glans also retract inwards/outwards throughout the day in the flaccid state varying with bodily parameters. In an intact penis, the foreskin glides smoothly over the glans as necessary, excess skin gathers ahead of the glans if needed. On a circumcised penis, the cut foreskin buckle and crease against the stitched position on the shaft as it retracts, preventing the shaft/glans from retracting properly and causing discomfort. The stitched foreskin acts like a spring preventing the retraction of the penis. This push of the buckled foreskin against the joint (stitch) during retractions through out the day (as well as pull during erection) is unnatural and uncomfortable compared to an intact naturally gliding foreskin-glans combination. All circumcised males have to again, subconsciously learn to ignore the discomfort. Stinging sensations along the stitched position may be felt during adulthood.
✔ Proper lymph flow. The foreskin contains lymphatic vessels, which are necessary for proper lymph flow and immunological functioning.
✔ Langerhans cells. These specialized epithelial cells are a component of the immune system and may play a role in protecting the penis from sexually transmitted infections such as HIV (AIDS).
✔ Dartos Fascia. This is a smooth temperature-sensitive muscle sheath that underlies the scrotum, the entire penis and the tip of the foreskin. It is necessary for proper temperature regulation of the genitals (causing these structures to elongate in the heat and shrink in the cold). Approximately half of the Dartos Fascia is destroyed by circumcision. In circumcised males, the glans can become cold at times due to the missing temperature control mechanism (exposed glans).
✔ Sebaceous glands. The oils produced by these glands lubricate and moisturize the foreskin and glans, so that the two structures function together smoothly.
✔ Full penis length and circumference. The foreskin creates a visibly longer penis, especially when the foreskin extends beyond the head of the penis. Also, the double-layered tissue of the foreskin engorges with blood during erection and creates a visibly and sensually thicker shaft and glans. When the engorged foreskin retracts behind the coronal ridge of the glans, it often creates a wider and more pronounced "ridge" that many partners find especially stimulating during penetrative intercourse. The circumcised penis appears truncated and thinner than a full-sized intact penis.
✔ Risk of death from surgery. Every year in the United States alone, an estimated 100 boys die from the complications of circumcision. Worldwide the figure is much higher, a fact that the American circumcision industry ignores, obscures, or downplays.
✔ Risk of delayed or diminished maternal bonding. Circumcision, even if anaesthesia is used, causes unavoidable operative trauma and post-operative pain that has been shown to disrupt bonding with the mother, which in turn interferes with the first developmental task of every human, that of trust (trust in human contact, in personal safety, etc)."
✔ Oestrogen Receptors. The presence of estrogen receptors within the foreskin has only recently been discovered. Their purpose is not yet understood and needs further study.
✔ Neurological Sexual Communication. Although never studied scientifically, contemporary evidence suggests that a penis without its foreskin lacks the capacity for the subtle neurological "cross-communication" that occurs only during contact between mucous membranes and which contributes to the experience of sexual pleasure. Amputating an infant boy's multi-functional foreskin is a low-grade neurological castration"[Immerman], which diminishes the intensity of the entire sexual experience for both the circumcised male and his partner).
Like I said.. could anyone dare to say that I am not a Muslim because I refuse circumcision?Reply
Ghazalah
09-03-2011, 06:34 PM
Wasalaam...
format_quote Originally Posted by Kabeer
Really? Disgusting for a wife to see her husbands awrah?
Where have I said its disgusting for a wife to see her husbands awrah? Him mentioning it the way he did was disturbing and useless. Nobody wants to know what his future sons wife reaction will be when she sees his awrah. Sheesh. :hmm:

OP have a look at this - http://blog.onlyislam.net/2011/05/is...-islam-by.html
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-03-2011, 06:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kabeer
Salaam,

Really? Disgusting for a wife to see her husbands awrah?
It is in the Quran from Allah that husbands and wives can see each other's awrah. And it is of course natural.

Peace
No i do not believe that was what the sister meant. nor did the sister say that, please be careful in your words also.

maybe if you ask the sister, before coming up with conclusions it would be much safer.

jazakallaahu Khaayr.
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primate
09-03-2011, 06:36 PM
Argh.. this forum can be quite confusing >_<

Is there any way for me to edit my posts?
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primate
09-03-2011, 06:37 PM
Clearly something has went wrong with my post #11 in this thread, it's really messing up the entire thread lol. Could a moderator please edit or delete the post?
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Kabeer
09-03-2011, 06:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jεώel oғ ωïѕdoм

No i do not believe that was what the sister meant. nor did the sister say that, please be careful in your words also.

maybe if you ask the sister, before coming up with conclusions it would be much safer.

jazakallaahu Khaayr.
:), confusing the meaning of a person's question, and saying something is from Allah are two completely different levels of mistakes.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ghazalah
Wasalaam...


Where have I said its disgusting for a wife to see her husbands awrah? Him mentioning it the way he did was disturbing and useless. Nobody wants to know what his future sons wife reaction will be when she sees his awrah. Sheesh. :hmm:

OP have a look at this - http://blog.onlyislam.net/2011/05/is...-islam-by.html
Wasalam, ya I see. My apologies to you :)
The OP was giving a valid question, about would a Muslim wife accept her uncircumsised son. Maybe the wording was not tactful for the sensibilities of an Islamic Forum.


Peace
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-03-2011, 07:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kabeer
:), confusing the meaning of a person's question, and saying something is from Allah are two completely different levels of mistakes.

Peace
As'Salaam Alaaykum

Am I not grateful that one has corrected me? I am grateful to you for correcting a mistake of mine.

or is it better to continue in blaming one of a mistake, that he has realised due to correction?

jazakallaahu Khaayr.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-03-2011, 07:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
Clearly something has went wrong with my post #11 in this thread, it's really messing up the entire thread lol. Could a moderator please edit or delete the post?
inshaa'Allaah mods will atend as soon as they can to sort this problem.
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primate
09-03-2011, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jεώel oғ ωïѕdoм

inshaa'Allaah mods will atend as soon as they can to sort this problem.
Haha yes I hope so. It's giving me a headache just looking at it. Crazy internet :sorry:
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Endymion
09-03-2011, 07:15 PM
Assalam Alekum Respected Brother Kabeer.



(4:59) Believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those from among you who are invested with authority; and then if you were to dispute among yourselves about anything refer it to Allah and the Messenger89 if you indeed believe in Allah and the Last Day; that is better and more commendable in the end.
Chap 4 Al-Nisa.

Explanation.

This verse is the cornerstone of the entire religious, social and political structure of Islam, and the very first clause of the constitution of an Islamic state. It lays down the following principles as permanent guidelines:

(1) In the Islamic order of life, God alone is the focus of loyalty and obedience. A Muslim is the servant of God before anything else, and obedience and loyalty to God constitute the centre and axis of both the individual and collective life of a Muslim. Other claims to loyalty and obedience are acceptable only insofar as they remain secondary and subservient, and do not compete with those owed to God. All loyalties which may tend to challenge the primacy of man's loyalty to God must be rejected. This has been expressed by the Prophet (peace be on him) in the following words: 'There may be no obedience to any creature in disobedience to the Creator.' (Muslim, 'Iman', 37; Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, vol. 3, p. 472 - Ed.)

(2) Another basic principle of the Islamic order of life is obedience to the Prophet (peace be on him). No Prophet, of course, is entitled to obedience in his own right. Obedience to Prophets, however, is the only practical way of obeying God, since they are the only authentic means by which He communicates His injunctions and ordinances to men. Hence, we can obey God only if we obey a Prophet. Independent obedience to God is not acceptable, and to turn one's back on the Prophets amounts to rebellion against God. The following tradition from the Prophet (peace be on him) explains this: 'Whoever obeyed me, indeed obeyed God; and whoever disobeyed me, indeed disobeyed God.' (Bukhari, 'Jihad', 109; 'I'tisam', 2; Muslim, 'Amarah', 32, 33; Nasa'i, 'Bay'ah', 27; etc. - Ed.) We shall see this explained in more detail a little further on in the Qur'an.

(3) In the Islamic order of life Muslims are further required to obey fellow Muslims in authority. This obedience follows, and is subordinate to, obedience to God and the Prophet (peace be on him). Those invested with authority (ulu al-amr) include all those entrusted with directing Muslims in matters of common concern. Hence, persons 'invested with authority' include the intellectual and political leaders of the community, as well as administrative officials, judges of the courts, tribal chiefs and regional representatives. In all these capacities, those 'invested with authority' are entitled to obedience, and it is improper for Muslims to cause dislocation in their collective life by engaging in strife and conflict with them. This obedience is contingent, however, on two conditions: first, that these men should be believers; and second, that they should themselves be obedient to God and the Prophet (peace be on him). These two conditions are not only clearly mentioned in this verse they have also been elucidated at length by the Prophet (peace be on him) and can be found in the Hadith. Let us consider, for example, the following traditions: A Muslim is obliged to heed and to obey an order whether he likes it or not, as long as he is not ordered to carry out an act of disobedience to God (ma'siyah). When ordered to carry out an act of disobedience-to God he need neither heed nor obey.

There is no obedience in sin; obedience is only in what is good (ma'ruf). (For these traditions see Bukhari, 'Ahkam', 4; 'Jihad', 108; Muslim, 'Amarah', 39; Tirmidhi, 'Jihad', 29; Ibn Majah, 'Jihad', 40; Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, vol. 2, pp. 17 and 142 - Ed.)

There will be rulers over you, some of whose actions you will consider good and others abominable. Who even disapproves of their abominable acts will be acquitted of all blame, and whoever resents them he too will remain secure (from all blame); not so one who approves and follows them in their abominable acts. They (i.e. the Companions) asked: 'Should we not fight against them?' The Prophet (peace be on him) said: 'No, not as long as they continue to pray.' (See Bukhari, 'Jihad', 108 - Ed.)

This means that their abandonment of Prayer will be a clear sign of their having forsaken obedience to God and the Prophet (peace be on him). Thereafter it becomes proper to fight against them. In another tradition the Prophet (peace be on him) says:

Your worst leaders are those whom you hate and who hate you; whom you curse and who curse you. We asked: 'O Messenger of God! Should we not rise against them?' The Prophet (peace be on him) said: 'No, not as long as they establish Prayer among you: not as long as they establish Prayer among you.' (See Muslim, 'Amarah', 65, 66; Tirmidhi, 'Fitan', 77; Darimi, 'Riqaq, 78; Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, vol. 6, pp. 24, 28 - Ed.)

In this tradition the position is further clarified. The earlier tradition could have created the impression that it was not permissible to revolt against rulers as long as they observed their Prayers privately. But the latter tradition makes it clear that what is really meant by 'praying' is the establishment of the system of congregational Prayers in the collective life of Muslims. This means that it is by no means sufficient that the rulers merely continue observing their Prayers: it is also necessary that the system run by them should at least be concerned with the establishment of Prayer. This concern with Prayer is a definite indication that a government is essentially an Islamic one. But if no concern for establishing Prayer is noticed, it shows that the government has drifted far away from Islam making it permissible to overthrow it. The same principle is also enunciated by the Prophet (peace be on him) in another tradition, in which the narrator says: 'The Prophet (peace be on him) also made us pledge not to rise against our rulers unless we see them involved in open disbelief, so that we have definite evidence against them to lay before God' (Bukhari and Muslim).

(4) In an Islamic order the injunctions of God and the way of the Prophet (peace be on him) constitute the basic law and paramount authority in all matters. Whenever there is any dispute among Muslims or between the rulers and the ruled the matter should be referred to the Qur'an and the Sunnah, and all concerned should accept with sincerity whatever judgement results. In fact, willingness to take the Book of God and the Sunnah of His Messenger as the common point of reference, and to treat the judgement of the Qur'an and the Sunnah as the last word on all matters, is a central characteristic which distinguishes an Islamic system from un-Islamic ones. Some people question the principle that we should refer everything to the Book of God and the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be on him). They wonder how we can possibly do so when there are numerous practical questions involved, for example, rules and regulations relating to municipal administration, the management of railways and postal services and so on which are not treated at all in these sources. This doubt arises, however, from a misapprehension about Islam. The basic difference between a Muslim and a non-Muslim is that whereas the latter feels free to do as he wishes, the basic characteristic of a Muslim is that he always looks to God and to His Prophet for guidance, and where such guidance is available, a Muslim is bound by it. On the other hand, it is also quite important to remember that when no specific guidance is available, a Muslim feels free to exercise his discretion because the silence of the Law indicates that God Himself has deliberately granted man the freedom to make his decision.
Explanation by Mulana Abul Ala Mududi.
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Kabeer
09-03-2011, 07:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Endymion
Assalam Alekum Respected Brother Kabeer.
...
Walaikum Salam dearest Endy,
I dont really wish to derail this thread by changing the topic. I do not disagree about obedience to the Prophet. What I was disagreeing upon was semantics. "Allah has told us in X"

format_quote Originally Posted by Jεώel oғ ωïѕdoм

As'Salaam Alaaykum

Am I not grateful that one has corrected me? I am grateful to you for correcting a mistake of mine.

or is it better to continue in blaming one of a mistake, that he has realised due to correction?

jazakallaahu Khaayr.
Please accept my apologies if my tone offended you. I had assumed you did not accept the correction and were pointing at me (i cant see most of the first pageof this thread due to a wierd error by the op, so i have probably missed something). It is my own fault that I am a little short with people these days due to my own issues. Again, apologies, and a peace offering: http://terrybreathinggrace.files.wor...ake-slice1.jpg
Peace
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-03-2011, 07:31 PM
As'Salaam Alaaykum

format_quote Originally Posted by Kabeer
"Allah has told us in X"
As it was a error made by my ownself..and i sincerely apologise for that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Kabeer
Please accept my apologies if my tone offended you. I had assumed you did not accept the correction and were pointing at me (i cant see most of the first pageof this thread due to a wierd error by the op, so i have probably missed something). It is my own fault that I am a little short with people these days due to my own issues. Again, apologies, and a peace offering: http://terrybreathinggrace.files.wor...ake-slice1.jpg
Peace

Due to my mistakes also. I hope we are at peace inshaa'Allaah

jazakallaahu Khaayr.
Reply
primate
09-03-2011, 07:45 PM
This thread is pointless anyway, I think. Maybe it should all be deleted. I don't want my first post on this forum to be hostile and contentious imsad

All I can say is.. Allah (swt) does not make mistakes.. it is stated clearly in the Qur'an many times that the human body is a perfect creation. In my opinion for a human to alter the creation is blasphemy and is an insult to our Lord (swt) because it essentially is saying.. "You did it wrong.. this doctor will fix it..".

Like I say.. that's my opinion. I think that.. as long as people genuinely believe in their heart that they are doing what Allah (swt) wants, then that is good, whether you choose to circumcise your children or not.
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جوري
09-03-2011, 07:52 PM
wow what happened to the previous page? OP, there is an entire movement that is opposed to circumcision out there but there is NO scientific basis for it in fact there is tons of research coming out touting the benefits of circumcision especially in reducing STD's. Unless there's a bleeding diathesis or another medical condition and there are a few for instance where the foreskin is needed like for hypospadias repair.
I am not sure what you reply was on the previous page but again I can't emphasize enough that female 'circumcision' isn't Islamic in fact it dates back to czarist Russia and parts of Africa.. I posted an article on the matter written by a Muslim doctor from Harvard but can't seem to locate it with the new forum layout..

best,
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Asiyah3
09-03-2011, 07:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
wow what happened to the previous page?
Maybe it was censored. <Just a guess.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-03-2011, 07:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
This thread is pointless anyway, I think. Maybe it should all be deleted. I don't want my first post on this forum to be hostile and contentious imsad

All I can say is.. Allah (swt) does not make mistakes.. it is stated clearly in the Qur'an many times that the human body is a perfect creation. In my opinion for a human to alter the creation is blasphemy and is an insult to our Lord (swt) because it essentially is saying.. "You did it wrong.. this doctor will fix it..".

Like I say.. that's my opinion. I think that.. as long as people genuinely believe in their heart that they are doing what Allah (swt) wants, then that is good, whether you choose to circumcise your children or not.
As'Salaam Alaaykum

no dear sis, it is not pointless!

You came here for an answer and alhamdulilaah that is good.

I'll just let someone more knowledgeable on this topic reply to you.
Reply
جوري
09-03-2011, 07:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Asiyah3
Maybe it was censored. <Just a guess.
No it happened to me once before where the quoting system failed miserably.. I am sure a skillful mod can fix it insha'Allah..
censorship is usually asterisks over curse words..
Reply
primate
09-03-2011, 08:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
wow what happened to the previous page? OP, there is an entire movement that is opposed to circumcision out there but there is NO scientific basis for it in fact there is tons of research coming out touting the benefits of circumcision especially in reducing STD's. Unless there's a bleeding diathesis or another medical condition and there are a few for instance where the foreskin is needed like for hypospadias repair.
I am not sure what you reply was on the previous page but again I can't emphasize enough that female 'circumcision' isn't Islamic in fact it dates back to czarist Russia and parts of Africa.. I posted an article on the matter written by a Muslim doctor from Harvard but can't seem to locate it with the new forum layout..

best,
Sister, thank you for the reply but I must point out that there is huge scientific basis for it:
Ironically, you say that circumcision reduces the chance of catching an STD but the above article says "intact men are at lower risk of chlamydia and other sexually transmitted diseases".

But anyway, ignoring scientific benefits, it doesn't matter. Ultimately, there is absolutely 100% no way that I am going to alter Allah's (swt) creation.. it clearly says in the Qur'an that he created man perfect.. therefore in my eyes circumcision is blasphemy (although I respect that it is a sign of devotion. For example, if a young child is taught to steal. The child is showing loyalty to its parents, which is a good thing, but that does not mean that the act itself is a good thing. Circumcision is a sign of loyalty to Allah (swt), but it is not a good thing as it goes completely against the Qur'an).

Finally I have a fundamental, instinctive issue with circumcision. I am a nature-loving person, and I have a deep, deep issue with ritual alteration of nature and Allah's creation. Thankfully circumcised men make up only a small amount of the world's population and I hope that maybe we can keep Allah's perfect creation intact in future..

I just wonder what the wider implications of this are for intact Muslims though. Like I said in the OP, would this cause problems for my children..
Reply
جوري
09-03-2011, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
Sister, thank you for the reply but I must point out that there is huge scientific basis for it:
  • ✔ Immunological defense. The soft mucosa of the inner foreskin produces plasma cells, which secrete immunoglobulin antibodies, and antibacterial and antiviral proteins, such as the pathogen-killing enzyme called lysozyme. All of the human mucosa (the linings of the mouth, eyelids, vagina, foreskin and anus) are the body's first line of defense against disease. This benefit of the foreskin could be one possible explanation why intact men are at lower risk of chlamydia and other sexually transmitted diseases.
    ✔ Gliding action. The foreskin is the only moving part of the penis. During any sexual activity, the foreskin and glans work in unison; their mutual interaction creates a complete sexual response. During intercourse, the non-abrasive gliding of the penis in and out of itself within the vagina facilitates smooth and pleasurable intercourse for both partners. Circumcision not just involves cutting away, but stitching all around the foreskin permanently to the shaft. Thus foreskin cannot glide any more and makes the circumcised penis a static organ.
    The shaft/glans also retract inwards/outwards throughout the day in the flaccid state varying with bodily parameters. In an intact penis, the foreskin glides smoothly over the glans as necessary, excess skin gathers ahead of the glans if needed. On a circumcised penis, the cut foreskin buckle and crease against the stitched position on the shaft as it retracts, preventing the shaft/glans from retracting properly and causing discomfort. The stitched foreskin acts like a spring preventing the retraction of the penis. This push of the buckled foreskin against the joint (stitch) during retractions through out the day (as well as pull during erection) is unnatural and uncomfortable compared to an intact naturally gliding foreskin-glans combination. All circumcised males have to again, subconsciously learn to ignore the discomfort. Stinging sensations along the stitched position may be felt during adulthood.
    ✔ Proper lymph flow. The foreskin contains lymphatic vessels, which are necessary for proper lymph flow and immunological functioning.
    ✔ Langerhans cells. These specialized epithelial cells are a component of the immune system and may play a role in protecting the penis from sexually transmitted infections such as HIV (AIDS).
    ✔ Dartos Fascia. This is a smooth temperature-sensitive muscle sheath that underlies the scrotum, the entire penis and the tip of the foreskin. It is necessary for proper temperature regulation of the genitals (causing these structures to elongate in the heat and shrink in the cold). Approximately half of the Dartos Fascia is destroyed by circumcision. In circumcised males, the glans can become cold at times due to the missing temperature control mechanism (exposed glans).
    ✔ Sebaceous glands. The oils produced by these glands lubricate and moisturize the foreskin and glans, so that the two structures function together smoothly.
    ✔ Full penis length and circumference. The foreskin creates a visibly longer penis, especially when the foreskin extends beyond the head of the penis. Also, the double-layered tissue of the foreskin engorges with blood during erection and creates a visibly and sensually thicker shaft and glans. When the engorged foreskin retracts behind the coronal ridge of the glans, it often creates a wider and more pronounced "ridge" that many partners find especially stimulating during penetrative intercourse. The circumcised penis appears truncated and thinner than a full-sized intact penis.
    ✔ Risk of death from surgery. Every year in the United States alone, an estimated 100 boys die from the complications of circumcision. Worldwide the figure is much higher, a fact that the American circumcision industry ignores, obscures, or downplays.
    ✔ Risk of delayed or diminished maternal bonding. Circumcision, even if anaesthesia is used, causes unavoidable operative trauma and post-operative pain that has been shown to disrupt bonding with the mother, which in turn interferes with the first developmental task of every human, that of trust (trust in human contact, in personal safety, etc)."
    ✔Oestrogen Receptors. The presence of estrogen receptors within the foreskin has only recently been discovered. Their purpose is not yet understood and needs further study.
    ✔ Neurological Sexual Communication. Although never studied scientifically, contemporary evidence suggests that a penis without its foreskin lacks the capacity for the subtle neurological "cross-communication" that occurs only during contact between mucous membranes and which contributes to the experience of sexual pleasure. Amputating an infant boy's multi-functional foreskin is a low-grade neurological castration"[Immerman], which diminishes the intensity of the entire sexual experience for both the circumcised male and his partner)

Ironically, you say that circumcision reduces the chance of catching an STD but the above article says "intact men are at lower risk of chlamydia and other sexually transmitted diseases".

But anyway, ignoring scientific benefits, it doesn't matter. Ultimately, there is absolutely 100% no way that I am going to alter Allah's (swt) creation.. it clearly says in the Qur'an that he created man perfect.. therefore in my eyes circumcision is blasphemy (although I respect that it is a sign of devotion. For example, if a young child is taught to steal. The child is showing loyalty to its parents, which is a good thing, but that does not mean that the act itself is a good thing. Circumcision is a sign of loyalty to Allah (swt), but it is not a good thing as it goes completely against the Qur'an).

Finally I have a fundamental, instinctive issue with circumcision. I am a nature-loving person, and I have a deep, deep issue with ritual alteration of nature and Allah's creation. Thankfully circumcised men make up only a small amount of the world's population and I hope that maybe we can keep Allah's perfect creation intact in future..

I just wonder what the wider implications of this are for intact Muslims though. Like I said in the OP, would this cause problems for my children..
From what esteemed medical journal did you extract this from? Quranicpath is a Quran only site I can't fault you for being unable to distinguish what is right from wrong given that you're a new convert. But neither the science nor the religion of what you quote is accurate!

best
Reply
جوري
09-03-2011, 08:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Ironically, you say that circumcision reduces the chance of catching an STD but the above article says "intact men are at lower risk of chlamydia and other sexually transmitted diseases".
Just to assert my point with one of the things you've written above:
Circumcision Decision: Weighing the Risks and Benefits

Male circumcision reduces HIV, cervical cancer, syphilis, and chlamydia. Is it time to reconsider its merits?
By Arthur Allen
WebMD Feature
Reviewed by Sheldon Marks, MD
http://men.webmd.com/guide/circumcis...risks-benefits


Now, the topic has been discussed here ad naueam if only the search feature were working properly since I personally feel you're owed proper information but can't personally while fasting expend the effort to search for each and every one.. I'd take WebMD over what you quoted and I personally don't subscribe to internet sources to justify my clinical decisions but for the purposes of this forum some third party sources are more credible than others..

best,
Reply
aadil77
09-03-2011, 08:25 PM
Why is there a huge quote covering the first page?
Reply
جوري
09-03-2011, 08:29 PM
this is also an addendum to my two previous posts on the subject of female circumcision.
With regard to the issue at hand, it's been agreed that female gential mutilation, or what Br. Kadafi pointed out to be Pharaonic circumcision, is unlawful and has no basis in Islam. Indeed, this is a terrible practice. The difference of opinion only exists with regard to a mild form of female circumcision, which many scholars believe to be voluntary (sunnah).

Scholars have either said it is preferable to do it, or they have said it is preferable to avoid it. What Islam does teach us is that causing harm and suffering to others is forbidden. The most balanced and agreed upon view with regard to female circumcision is as mentioned by the IslamToday Fatwa committee:
Since the had&#238;th is weak to begin with, and since most people really do not know how to practice circumcision correctly, female circumcision should be avoided. (See here (Female Circumcision) for complete Fatwa.)
I hope this helps, and I hope the discussion will proceed in a manner befitting of muslims.

:w:
http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...mcision-3.html
Reply
Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-03-2011, 08:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Why is there a huge quote covering the first page?
As'Salaam Alaaykum

It was a minor mistake made by the OP, but is unable to edit herself..

insha'Allaah mods can sort out the problem..
Reply
aadil77
09-03-2011, 08:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
But anyway, ignoring scientific benefits, it doesn't matter. Ultimately, there is absolutely 100% no way that I am going to alter Allah's (swt) creation.. it clearly says in the Qur'an that he created man perfect.. therefore in my eyes circumcision is blasphemy (although I respect that it is a sign of devotion. For example, if a young child is taught to steal. The child is showing loyalty to its parents, which is a good thing, but that does not mean that the act itself is a good thing. Circumcision is a sign of loyalty to Allah (swt), but it is not a good thing as it goes completely against the Qur'an).

Finally I have a fundamental, instinctive issue with circumcision. I am a nature-loving person, and I have a deep, deep issue with ritual alteration of nature and Allah's creation. Thankfully circumcised men make up only a small amount of the world's population and I hope that maybe we can keep Allah's perfect creation intact in future..

I just wonder what the wider implications of this are for intact Muslims though. Like I said in the OP, would this cause problems for my children..
'Blasphemy'? Do you have any idea of what you're saying? What you've just said is the definition blasphemy, you've accused prophets of going against Qur'an - hence going against God. Don't speak about matters which you have no knowledge of and don't interpret verses of the Qur'an yourself. Almost every muslim man on earth is circumcised that's 1 billion people, not really a small amount. We are born perfect but we need to be maintained, we have to shave pubic hair, he have to cut our nails etc etc, foreskins are just part of human waste that need to be gotten rid of.

Why don't you look Islamic sources on the matter rather than speaking from your own emotional made up views?

And yes this will cause problems for your children, can you imagine their wives seeing their dirty uncircumcised privates? they'd be shocked
Reply
جوري
09-03-2011, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Islamic sources
The OP is a new convert and unfortunately is probably not aware what an Islamic site is from a deviant one, obviously the one s/he quoted isn't only not scientifically sound as I have demonstrated in the previous page but also a deviant site of the Quran only sect.. It can be difficult to sort through the crap when you're just starting out. I do like to give the benefit of the doubt once for some and three times for others but no more..

:w:
Reply
aadil77
09-03-2011, 09:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
The OP is a new convert and unfortunately is probably not aware what an Islamic site is from a deviant one, obviously the one s/he quoted isn't only not scientifically sound as I have demonstrated in the previous page but also a deviant site of the Quran only sect.. It can be difficult to sort through the crap when you're just starting out. I do like to give the benefit of the doubt once for some and three times for others but no more..

:w:
I had a feeling he must have come across crap from the Qur'an only sect

To the OP please stay away from Quranist websites - they are deviant and are not considered muslim because they reject the hadith and sayings of the prophet Muhammad - which is stupid because the Qur'an cannot alone tell them how to pray and how to do many other things - this is why we look the hadith.
Reply
primate
09-03-2011, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
We are born perfect but we need to be maintained
There is a big difference between maintenance and alteration.

The Qur'an clearly states that Allah (swt) made humans perfect.

If you say that a circumcised penis is better than a natural one, you are blaspheming as you are saying that a human has improved upon Allah's (swt) creation.
You can call it "deviancy" all you want, you can insult me all you want, maybe I am not welcome on this website, it doesn't make a difference to me. I follow Islam in my heart, it matters not to me what you think, and I pray to Allah (swt) that I make the right decision in keeping my children intact and natural as Allah (swt) created.
Reply
جوري
09-03-2011, 09:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
There is a big difference between maintenance and alteration.

The Qur'an clearly states that Allah (swt) made humans perfect.

If you say that a circumcised penis is better than a natural one, you are blaspheming as you are saying that a human has improved upon Allah's (swt) creation.
You can call it "deviancy" all you want, you can insult me all you want, maybe I am not welcome on this website, it doesn't make a difference to me. I follow Islam in my heart, it matters not to me what you think, and I pray to Allah (swt) that I make the right decision in keeping my children intact and natural as Allah (swt) created.
Allaah (Exalted is He) says:Do not act or give judgments in the Deen without knowledge. On the Day of Judgment one’s ears, eyes, and heart will be asked about their deeds

now, you haven't been able to pick sites that are either religiously or scientifically sound to jump to the very weighty 'blaspheme' we are always learning, and sometimes we learn things that don't appeal to our personal prejudices. If you feel that is sufficient reason to leave the site then no one will stop you but I'd recommend that you stay in a learn all you can rather than leave with an I have all the answers... one for your own sake..

:w:
Reply
Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-03-2011, 09:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
There is a big difference between maintenance and alteration.

The Qur'an clearly states that Allah (swt) made humans perfect.

If you say that a circumcised penis is better than a natural one, you are blaspheming as you are saying that a human has improved upon Allah's (swt) creation.
You can call it "deviancy" all you want, you can insult me all you want, maybe I am not welcome on this website, it doesn't make a difference to me. I follow Islam in my heart, it matters not to me what you think, and I pray to Allah (swt) that I make the right decision in keeping my children intact and natural as Allah (swt) created.
As'Salaam Alaaykum

You are right, there is indeed a big difference between maintenance and alteration..But the case of alteration isnt being talked about..

I know of cases with individuals with a nose which is slightly bent, due to this, they could not breath and a few other medical issues, so they had to get surgery performed, but if the person didnt have any problems, but changed the state of his nose for the sake of beautification, that would be classified as 'alteration'..which i believe is unnacceptable.

You are also correct, it doesnt matter to you what we or anyone thinks, what matters is what Allaah thinks, at the end of the day its the opinion of Allaah. Thats why we as muslims should refrain from posting up information which we have no knowledge of, or our own opinions or mis-interpret Qur'aanic ayahs. etc..
Reply
primate
09-03-2011, 09:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
you haven't been able to pick sites that are either religiously or scientifically sound
Says who?

Just because something is not mainstream does not affect whether it is correct or not.
Reply
جوري
09-03-2011, 09:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
Says who?

Just because something is not mainstream does not affect whether it is correct or not.
Says Doctors and Religious scholars and the consensus in Islam is that Allah swt is with the majority!

:w:
Reply
primate
09-03-2011, 09:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jεώel oғ ωïѕdoм

As'Salaam Alaaykum

You are right, there is indeed a big difference between maintenance and alteration..But the case of alteration isnt being talked about..

I know of cases with individuals with a nose which is slightly bent, due to this, they could not breath and a few other medical issues, so they had to get surgery performed, but if the person didnt have any problems, but changed the state of his nose for the sake of beautification, that would be classified as 'alteration'..which i believe is unnacceptable.

You are also correct, it doesnt matter to you what we or anyone thinks, what matters is what Allaah thinks, at the end of the day its the opinion of Allaah. Thats why we as muslims should refrain from posting up information which we have no knowledge of, or our own opinions or mis-interpret Qur'aanic ayahs. etc..
Thanks for the insightful reply.

All I can say is that there are 3 reasons why I disagree with male circumcision

- Allah (swt) disagrees with it (of course, this is the only reason one should need)
- Medical science disagrees with it
- My instinct of naturality disagrees with it

Now when Allah (swt), science and my own instinct all agree on the same thing.. then I am going to follow that. I pray that this is the right choice, mash'Allah.
Reply
جوري
09-03-2011, 09:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
Thanks for the insightful reply.

All I can say is that there are 3 reasons why I disagree with male circumcision

- Allah (swt) disagrees with it (of course, this is the only reason one should need)
- Medical science disagrees with it
- My instinct of naturality disagrees with it

Now when Allah (swt), science and my own instinct all agree on the same thing.. then I am going to follow that. I pray that this is the right choice, mash'Allah.
Again, neither God nor science disagree with circumcision see previous referenced posts on the subject if either of what you suggest were true people would be circumcising their kids it in some shady back alley than by physicians in a hospital setting!the third is your own opinion and you're certainly welcome to it.

best,
Reply
Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-03-2011, 09:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
Thanks for the insightful reply.

All I can say is that there are 3 reasons why I disagree with male circumcision

- Allah (swt) disagrees with it (of course, this is the only reason one should need)
- Medical science disagrees with it
- My instinct of naturality disagrees with it

Now when Allah (swt), science and my own instinct all agree on the same thing.. then I am going to follow that. I pray that this is the right choice, mash'Allah.
As'Salaam Alaaykum

Where does it state Allaah disagree's with one having surgery performed on his nose due to medical reasons?

I know i may be going a lil overboard, but What about individuals born with learning difficulties? those visually impaired, etc Does that mean we should leave them alone? or should it mean we provide support for them, as there has been provided much support.. as they are all also a creation of Allaah - The most wise.

Do you have proof that Allaah SWT disagree's with this circumcision, which is essentially known as a form of purification?
Reply
primate
09-03-2011, 09:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

Again, neither God nor science disagree with circumcision see previous referenced posts on the subject if either of what you suggest were true people would be circumcising their kids it in some shady back alley than by physicians in a hospital setting!the third is your own opinion and you're certainly welcome to it.

best,

God (swt) disagrees with circumcision:

"You will not see any flaw in what the Lord of Mercy creates." (Qur'an 67:3)
Medical science disagrees with circumcision:

(See the wikipedia page entitled "medical analysis of circumcision, it's a huge list of immediate and delayed complications and issues relating to circumcision)

You can see the truth in front of you.. just because mainstream Islam tells you something different doesn't give you an excuse to be ignorant..

Allah (swt) created the perfect girl with her clitoris and the perfect boy with his frenulum so that both can enjoy the full blessing of sexual activity and orgasms.. how can you not see this..
Reply
aadil77
09-03-2011, 09:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
There is a big difference between maintenance and alteration.

The Qur'an clearly states that Allah (swt) made humans perfect.

If you say that a circumcised penis is better than a natural one, you are blaspheming as you are saying that a human has improved upon Allah's (swt) creation.
You can call it "deviancy" all you want, you can insult me all you want, maybe I am not welcome on this website, it doesn't make a difference to me. I follow Islam in my heart, it matters not to me what you think, and I pray to Allah (swt) that I make the right decision in keeping my children intact and natural as Allah (swt) created.
I have no intention to insult you, rather make you rethink your decision. You're again misinterpreting that Qur'an verse.

Is it not enough for you if Allah Himself gives revelation through the form of prophets telling mankind to circumcise themselves?

Do you not believe that prophets are messengers from God and only speak from divine inspiration/revelation? They do not create their own laws

No one is born intact, everyone is born with umbilical cords attached their mothers which have to be cut off in order for you to function properly, same way foreskin has to cut off.

Islam is a religion of cleanliness, we cut our nails because long nails trap dirt, we shave our pubes because they trap dirt, same way foreskins are cut off because they trap dirt. If you don't do it now, it'll be more difficult for your kids to get it done later on.
Reply
primate
09-03-2011, 09:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jεώel oғ ωïѕdoм

As'Salaam Alaaykum

Where does it state Allaah disagree's with one having surgery performed on his nose due to medical reasons?

I know i may be going a lil overboard, but What about individuals born with learning difficulties? those visually impaired, etc Does that mean we should leave them alone? or should it mean we provide support for them, as there has been provided much support..

Do you have proof that Allaah SWT disagree's with this circumcision, which is essentially known as a form of purification?
I didn't say that about the nose surgery..

Indeed, thank you for bringing up that example. Because the whole point in that nose surgery would be to return the person with the illness/disability to their normal, natural self, the way Allah (swt) created them. E.g. if a baby is born with an arm which sticks out the wrong way, then mash'Allah surgery can and should be performed so that the baby can live a normal life in the way Allah (swt) created the normal human being.

Circumcision is the opposite of this.. it is the equivalent of taking a healthy baby and chopping off its arm.. it is changing the human body from something that is natural and created by Allah (swt) to something which is not natural and is artificial
Reply
جوري
09-03-2011, 09:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate

God (swt) disagrees with circumcision:

"You will not see any flaw in what the Lord of Mercy creates." (Qur'an 67:3)
Medical science disagrees with circumcision:
That IS NOT evidence against circumcision in the least. Surely if we subscribe to your logic we'd never cut our nails, groom our hair, take out our appendix when infected. Try to read the Quran in context and not loan it your own renditions!

See the wikipedia page entitled "medical analysis of circumcision, it's a huge list of immediate and delayed complications and issues relating to circumcision)
I have just quoted you an article by a doctor from webMD contrary to what you have quoted completely rebuts it -- if you're still not convinced then there is nothing we can do to help you!
You can see the truth in front of you.. just because mainstream Islam tells you something different doesn't give you an excuse to be ignorant..
Ignorance here is an adequate assessment of your own person you haven't so much as given folks the courtesy of reading the articles they've referenced for you in favor of your own personal convictions and in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary!

Allah (swt) created the perfect girl with her clitoris and the perfect boy with his frenulum so that both can enjoy the full blessing of sexual activity and orgasms.. how can you not see this..
Did you read the article I referenced above calling the hadith on female circumcision weak and forbidding it?

This is a third strike for you not only because you persist in folly but you because you don't even bother read what's posted which might on some level have agreed with one of your views..

You assume, you project, you misconstrue and you persist in folly and then threaten to leave?
This frankly isn't the demeanor of a Muslim-- least of which one who is at a stage of learning!

best
Reply
primate
09-03-2011, 10:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Is it not enough for you if Allah Himself gives revelation through the form of prophets telling mankind to circumcise themselves?
Let me remind you that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) also recommended female genital mutilation, but I don't suppose you defend that?

I put FGM and MGM all into the same basket.. they are clearly not what Allah (swt) wants us to do, and I repeat:

"You will not see any flaw in what the Lord of Mercy creates." (Qur'an 67:3)

I can guarantee you that you do not perfectly emulate the life or actions of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), and you do not follow every single thing prescribed in the Sunnah. I don't want to get into an argument about how the Qur'an takes complete priority over the Sunnah..
Reply
جوري
09-03-2011, 10:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
Let me remind you that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) also recommended female genital mutilation, but I don't suppose you defend that?
Did you read post number 32?
With regard to the issue at hand, it's been agreed that female gential mutilation, or what Br. Kadafi pointed out to be Pharaonic circumcision, is unlawful and has no basis in Islam. Indeed, this is a terrible practice. The difference of opinion only exists with regard to a mild form of female circumcision, which many scholars believe to be voluntary (sunnah).

Scholars have either said it is preferable to do it, or they have said it is preferable to avoid it. What Islam does teach us is that causing harm and suffering to others is forbidden. The most balanced and agreed upon view with regard to female circumcision is as mentioned by the IslamToday Fatwa committee:
Since the had&#238;th is weak to begin with, and since most people really do not know how to practice circumcision correctly, female circumcision should be avoided. (See here (Female Circumcision) (Female Circumcision) for complete Fatwa.)
I hope this helps, and I hope the discussion will proceed in a manner befitting of muslims.

:w:

I am really starting to think you're just a troll!
Reply
aadil77
09-03-2011, 10:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
Let me remind you that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) also recommended female genital mutilation, but I don't suppose you defend that?

I put FGM and MGM all into the same basket.. they are clearly not what Allah (swt) wants us to do, and I repeat:

"You will not see any flaw in what the Lord of Mercy creates." (Qur'an 67:3)

I can guarantee you that you do not perfectly emulate the life or actions of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), and you do not follow every single thing prescribed in the Sunnah. I don't want to get into an argument about how the Qur'an takes complete priority over the Sunnah..
That is completely false, the prophet never recommended 'FGM'. Why are you ignoring my other statements?
Reply
primate
09-03-2011, 10:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
am really starting to think you're just a troll!
If you think that then I won't waste my time on you any further until you apologise.

I am happy with Islamic debate but when you personally insult me I draw the line. Learn some respect
Reply
جوري
09-03-2011, 10:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
That is completely false, the prophet never recommended 'FGM'. Why are you ignoring my other statements?
Three strikes are out in my judgment by now. It is very clear from the unraveling of this thread who this person is!

:w:
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جوري
09-03-2011, 10:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
If you think that then I won't waste my time on you any further until you apologise.

I am happy with Islamic debate but when you personally insult me I draw the line. Learn some respect
I have listed the reasons as to why you're a troll, perhaps they fell on your blind spot & I see you purposefully omit things that either embarrass you, rebut you or expose you? but they are there for everyone else to see!

I owe no apologies where a statement of accuracy has been made!

besst
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primate
09-03-2011, 10:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
That is completely false, the prophet never recommended 'FGM'
Muhammed (pbuh) said: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."


I won't address the other poster until she apologies for the personal insult she made.
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جوري
09-03-2011, 10:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
Muhammed (pbuh) said: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."


I won't address the other poster until she apologies for the personal insult she made.
It is an insult in fact to be addressed by a troll, but again we clarify for others:
With regard to the issue at hand, it's been agreed that female gential mutilation, or what Br. Kadafi pointed out to be Pharaonic circumcision, is unlawful and has no basis in Islam. Indeed, this is a terrible practice. The difference of opinion only exists with regard to a mild form of female circumcision, which many scholars believe to be voluntary (sunnah).

you already misconstrue the Quran, and science so it is no surprise that you have no understanding of sunnah!
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جوري
09-03-2011, 10:18 PM
we should at this stage report the troll to a mod to deal with it. All that needed clarification and explanation has been made crystal anything beyond this would really qualify as Jaddal with the ignorant-- in fact ignorance with malice to distort the Quran and Sunnah and science as we know it.
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primate
09-03-2011, 10:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

It is an insult in fact to be addressed by a troll, but again we clarify for others:
With regard to the issue at hand, it's been agreed that female gential mutilation, or what Br. Kadafi pointed out to be Pharaonic circumcision, is unlawful and has no basis in Islam. Indeed, this is a terrible practice. The difference of opinion only exists with regard to a mild form of female circumcision, which many scholars believe to be voluntary (sunnah).

you already misconstrue the Quran, and science so it is no surprise that you have no understanding of sunnah!
Yes masha'Allah, FGM has been denounced as a terrible practice, thankfully (even though it was put forward in the Sunnah). One can only hope that MGM is soon also denounced as a terrible practice (even though that too has been put forward in the Sunnah). Only then will Muslim males be able to live truly in the body that is natural and that Allah (swt) created perfectly.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-03-2011, 10:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
I didn't say that about the nose surgery..

Indeed, thank you for bringing up that example. Because the whole point in that nose surgery would be to return the person with the illness/disability to their normal, natural self, the way Allah (swt) created them. E.g. if a baby is born with an arm which sticks out the wrong way, then mash'Allah surgery can and should be performed so that the baby can live a normal life in the way Allah (swt) created the normal human being.

Circumcision is the opposite of this.. it is the equivalent of taking a healthy baby and chopping off its arm.. it is changing the human body from something that is natural and created by Allah (swt) to something which is not natural and is artificial
As'Salaam Alaaykum

I didnt say you did say anything about nose surgery, i was trying to make a point, that when one is in the condition of need, Allaah doesnt burden him, rather it is something adviced to do. for example, when falls down, another should help them to stand up..

Circumcision also brings one to the state of natural self which is purification, worshipping Allaah purified.

Is it opposite? If a disease or illness if not treated, not cause danger or harm to oneself? If one is not clean, his salah is not accepted. How is it that circumcision makes one artificial? You do know there have been cases where babies have been born with problems, one would bring the baby back to natural state by treating the baby, by the will of Allaah the baby is cured. So what the prophets (pbut) did was artificial?

AstagfiruAllaah - May Allaah forgive me.
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primate
09-03-2011, 10:21 PM
Sadly I predicted this would happen back on page 2:

format_quote Originally Posted by primate
This thread is pointless anyway, I think. Maybe it should all be deleted. I don't want my first post on this forum to be hostile and contentious imsad
Insha'Allah the poster will calm down and stop with the insults.. it is sad that some people get angry over Islamic debate, but I have came across many people like that and they just have to be ignored I guess..
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-03-2011, 10:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
Muhammed (pbuh) said: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."
As'Salaam Alaaykum

Where are the references insha'Allaah?

And are you fully aware what it means?
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جوري
09-03-2011, 10:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
Yes masha'Allah, FGM has been denounced as a terrible practice, thankfully (even though it was put forward in the Sunnah). One can only hope that MGM is soon also denounced as a terrible practice (even though that too has been put forward in the Sunnah). Only then will Muslim males be able to live truly in the body that is natural and that Allah (swt) created perfectly.
You don't have male children! I have doubts that you're Muslim. I also have doubts that you have any interest reading anything that opposed your personal convictions fickle and inconsistent as they're.. Did you not already decide not to reply to me? It took me three times to post the same statement with regard to female 'mutilation' for it to register with you?
Will you pretend to be a Jew tomorrow and go into their website hoping to sway their beliefs with pseudo science and questionable sites?

I regret wasting a would have been perfect day of fast on such foolishness but glad at least to have you exposed!
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Ghazalah
09-03-2011, 10:28 PM
If Allah swt disagreed with circumcision, then wouldn't Allah swt of told Muhammed PBHU? Told him not to do it and tell others to stop it?
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M.I.A.
09-03-2011, 10:29 PM
does circumcision or the request of it date from the prophet ibrahim's pbuh time?
i bit ignorant of the matter so any help would be appreciated.
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primate
09-03-2011, 10:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jεώel oғ ωïѕdoм

As'Salaam Alaaykum

I didnt say you did say anything about nose surgery, i was trying to make a point, that when one is in the condition of need, Allaah doesnt burden him, rather it is something adviced to do. for example, when falls down, another should help them to stand up..

Circumcision also brings one to the state of natural self which is purification, worshipping Allaah purified.

Is it opposite? If a disease or illness if not treated, not cause danger or harm to oneself? If one is not clean, his salah is not accepted. How is it that circumcision makes one artificial? You do know there have been cases where babies have been born with problems, one would bring the baby back to natural state by treating the baby, by the will of Allaah the baby is cured. So what the prophets (pbut) did was artificial?

AstagfiruAllaah - May Allaah forgive me.
Jewel,

Should I cut off my hand, so that I do not have to clean it? I mean, if I have no hand, then there is no hand to get dirty, therefore I will be purer when I worship Allaah (swt).

Of course, this line of thinking is ridiculous - but it is no different to the ridiculous line of thinking of male genital mutilation

I am surprised at some of you females on here. Do you not want your husbands to experience the full sensations of sexual intercourse with you? It is common knowledge that MGM completely destroys a lot of the pleasure of sex for males, it destroys nerve endings and makes the penis dry, sore, scarred, ugly and gives it a leathery, chafed appearance.

Muslim men have done YOU the honour of allowing you to experience the full pleasure of sex.. maybe you should consider returning the favour and defending males who also want the male gender to experience the full pleasure of sex too.

I pray to Allah (swt) I have made the right choice
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جوري
09-03-2011, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
Sadly I predicted this would happen back on page 2:



Insha'Allah the poster will calm down and stop with the insults.. it is sad that some people get angry over Islamic debate, but I have came across many people like that and they just have to be ignored I guess..
show me where pointing the obvious equates with an insult? further show me which part of your debate is 'Islamic' at all? You quoted a deviant site and expect that it should register with us as Islamic and 'scientific' and then spin the crap into five pages where nothing anyone writes seems to have any sort of impact on you?

That's amusing to say the least!
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Ghazalah
09-03-2011, 10:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
but it is no different to the ridiculous line of thinking of male genital mutilation
SubhanAllah, are now deeming the Prophet (PBUH) line of thinking ridiculous? Guys, stop wasting your time on this one.
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جوري
09-03-2011, 10:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
Should I cut off my hand, so that I do not have to clean it? I mean, if I have no hand, then there is no hand to get dirty, therefore I will be purer when I worship Allaah (swt).
cutting off the penis would make one a Eunuch not circumcised. I pray to Allah that he rids us of the deviants and they're certainly not difficult for the learned and seasoned to spot!
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primate
09-03-2011, 10:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ghazalah
If Allah swt disagreed with circumcision, then wouldn't Allah swt of told Muhammed PBHU? Told him not to do it and tell others to stop it?
If Allah (swt) agreed with circumcision, why would he have made the foreskin at all?

*rolls eyes*
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Ghazalah
09-03-2011, 10:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
If Allah (swt) agreed with circumcision, why would he have made the foreskin at all?
:giggling:

Your line of thinking is hilarious to say the least.
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M.I.A.
09-03-2011, 10:34 PM
i for one am not comfortable in my own skin

lol
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primate
09-03-2011, 10:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
I pray to Allah that he rids us of the deviants and they're certainly not difficult for the learned and seasoned to spot!
I am done here.. I am clearly not welcome on this forum, evidently a forum of people who confuse culture with religion.. yes you may be right, maybe I am deviant, but I have full love for Allah (swt) in my heart and maybe you need to learn that that is what counts.. I pray to Allah (swt) for us all
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جوري
09-03-2011, 10:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
If Allah (swt) agreed with circumcision, why would he have made the foreskin at all?

*rolls eyes*
If Allah swt doesn't agree with the devil why have created him at all?

your logic or lack thereof really makes for an interesting conversation!
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جوري
09-03-2011, 10:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate

I am done here.. I am clearly not welcome on this forum, evidently a forum of people who confuse culture with religion.. yes you may be right, maybe I am deviant, but I have full love for Allah (swt) in my heart and maybe you need to learn that that is what counts.. I pray to Allah (swt) for us all
whatever.. go find some Jews to bother about that barbaric practice or meek Muslims who'll coax you to hold the number. Your relationship with God is inconsequential to me, just don't come here preaching deviant nonsense and expect us all to be ok with it after repeated attempts to teach you what's the correct Islamic view. Don't speak for God, or the Sunnah of the prophet or of science when you're so inept in all three areas!
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M.I.A.
09-03-2011, 10:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate

I am done here.. I am clearly not welcome on this forum, evidently a forum of people who confuse culture with religion.. yes you may be right, maybe I am deviant, but I have full love for Allah (swt) in my heart and maybe you need to learn that that is what counts.. I pray to Allah (swt) for us all
i guess you are right, its whats inside that counts.

i found a genesis verse about circumcision but am unsure as to its validity, there is much debate about circumcision or the lack of it in the jewish community also.
i guess we have the sunnat to validate our views on such a thing and the related hadith.

as to the reasoning it depends on why you would want to circumcise yourself or not.. nobodies gonna know
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aadil77
09-03-2011, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate
Muhammed (pbuh) said: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."


I won't address the other poster until she apologies for the personal insult she made.
you're quoting weak hadiths that are not accepted by scholars
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aadil77
09-03-2011, 11:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by primate

Of course, this line of thinking is ridiculous - but it is no different to the ridiculous line of thinking of male genital mutilation
That's it, that's enough blasphemy from you, you should be banned

now go and repent for insulting the religion of Allah
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Aprender
09-03-2011, 11:22 PM
Just read through all of the pages here on the forum. Now I don't know much about this as I am a new Muslim myself and don't have any children, but circumcision is something that even my Christian family has done for the sake of cleanliness in general. Has nothing to do with the religion as that has kind of faded into the background.

Seems strange to me that the original OP is against circumcision so his/her future son can have a better sex life? Isn't that vain to go against the teachings of the prophet (pbuh), the prophet who was taught by the One who created us all for some worldly physical pleasure? I just don't understand how that makes sense. I tried but I don't get it.

I do want the OP to stay if they are indeed serious but you should know that when you try to go away from "mainstream" Islam as you call it people will try to help put you back on track. This ummah is broken enough. You stray from one part of the Sunnah, you'll stray from another. I don't like the fact that men in Islam can have four wives but I'm not going around finding scientific articles to back up my views or staying around a group of Muslims who follow a one-wife only rule...:hmm:
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Salahudeen
09-04-2011, 02:33 AM
This is crazy ;D women actually wanna marry Muslim men cos their circumcised among other reasons :hmm:
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جوري
09-04-2011, 02:43 AM
I don't want to make a post that is blow the waist or bad in taste but amongst other things it is appalling especially in the pediatric population where the parents have no clue how to clean their kid and they end up with a length wise worm like structure composed of smegma. I don't understand the hysterics in certain movements.. The anti-vaccination movement, the anti-circumcision movement. Some people have no interest in science and a load of interest in hysterics and theatrics!
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