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Novice
09-17-2011, 05:13 AM
Hi,

I have a multitude of questions about Islam (encompassing a number of issues), so I thought I'd register here and use this thread to ask away. I'm quite sure that it won't be organized, so please bear with me. :)

My first question (well, a number of questions): Must there be a caliphate in order for a country to be considered a shariah state? I know there are many issues that Shariah is concerned with (economics, social issues, etc), but I was wondering that if all these were correctly implemented in a certain country (void of a caliphate, of course), would that country be considered a shariah state? Or perhaps one that is near one?

Thanks.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-17-2011, 10:51 AM
Greetings of peace

Shariah law - Law of God.. There is no better law than the law of Allmighty God.

If the Shariah law was implemented fully and implemented in the world today it would be at ease, unfortunate it is that it's not implemented fully and correctly. Yes, it would be considered a shariah state, but at the moment no land is fully considered a shariah state.

I hope someone can post up a better reply to you inshaa'Allaah - God Willingly.
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Salahudeen
09-17-2011, 02:23 PM
I asked someone and they told me this :hmm:

If a state upholds Shariah, then the leader, according to Shariah, must declare himself khalifah and all the Muslims in the world must give him vow of allegiance. According to Shariah, Muslims cannot live without a leader (khalifah).
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Ramadhan
09-17-2011, 04:03 PM
This is a good question actually. Let's have a look at it from different angle:
So far, there has been no non-khilafah country/state that fully implemented sharia.
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Novice
09-18-2011, 08:55 PM
Hi,

Thanks for the responses. My second question:

Can you explain the jizya/zakat? What is the historical backround around it? Who is eligible to pay and are there exceptions for some under certain conditions? I have read that with the advent of the income tax, there is no more need for the jizya. Is this correct?

Thanks.
Reply

Abz2000
09-18-2011, 10:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Novice
Must there be a caliphate in order for a country to be considered a shariah state? I know there are many issues that Shariah is concerned with (economics, social issues, etc), but I was wondering that if all these were correctly implemented in a certain country (void of a caliphate, of course), would that country be considered a shariah state?
caliph means something along the lines of vicegerent/manager/caretaker/representative/ambassador.
it is an accepted person who establishes the rulership of God on earth and implements those rules.

Behold, your Lord said to the angels:
"I will create a vicegerent on earth."
Quran 2:30

it can also be seen in this prayer attributed to the Prophet Jesus (pbuh):

After this manner therefore pray ye:
Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done in earth,
as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory, for ever.

Amen
Matthew 6:9-13



It allows for the leaders to make laws within it's spirit - but not to break any of the eternal laws and rule on their whim and to take the position of ultimate Ruler - which only belongs to God. for example - neither the Caliph - nor a unanimous vote can change the laws on incest.
a constitutional republic.

This is a duty as a Muslim that Almighty God will account us for as the Prophet (peace be upon him) said
“……and whoever dies without the pledge of allegiance to a Caliph on his neck, dies the death of the days of jahilliya (ignorance)”
[Recorded in Sahih Muslim]

so a state in ignorance would not be considered a full shariah state.

Can you explain the jizya/zakat? What is the historical backround around it? Who is eligible to pay and are there exceptions for some under certain conditions?
the zakat is a 2.5% due on savings and not earnings - i.e that left over after expenditure is met.
The Holy Qur'an (Sura Al-Tauba: 60) classifies the due recipients of zakat under the following eight categories.
"Zakat is for the poor, and the needy and those who are employed to administer and collect it, and the new converts, and for those who are in bondage, and in debt and service of the cause of Allah, and for the wayfarers, a duty ordained by Allah, and Allah is the All-Knowing, the Wise".
Zakah can only be distributed to any of the eight eligible beneficiaries (asnaf) that are mentioned in the Qur'an, At Taubah: 60. However, priority should be given to the poor and needy. Where there is no central authority to administer zakah, it can be paid directly to the needy.
"Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer the (funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to the truth); for those in bondage and in debt; in the cause of Allah; and for the wayfarer: (thus is it) ordained by Allah, and Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom." At Taubah : 60
  1. The poor (Faqir/Fuqara)
    Those without any means of livelihood and material possessions.
  2. The needy (Miskeen)
    Those without sufficient means of livelihood to meet their basic necessities. For instance, those who, although may have a job, a house and a car, but whose income is below the minimum requirement.
  3. The administrators of zakah (Amil)
    Those appointed to manage and administer zakah. This category is sub-divided into the following categories:
    1. Group of people who go out to the society and determine those who fall Fuqara and Miskeen categories.
    2. Those who collect the Zakah money.
    3. The accountant of the Zakah money.
    4. The administrator, manager, clerical worker or secretary who puts the files in order.
    5. Those who handle Zakah distributions.
    6. The auditor who audits overall Zakah management and administration.
  4. The sympathisers (Muallaf)
    Those who are inclined to enter or have already converted to Islam.
  5. To free slaves (Riqab)
    Zakah can also be used to free slaves or captives.
  6. Those who are in debt (Gharimin)
    Zakah can be used to pay off the debts of a person who has borrowed to pay for basic necessities so that he/she can lead a normal life. Zakah can also be distributed to those in financial difficulties e.g. bankruptcy due to the loss of employment and heavy debt.
  7. For the cause of Allah (Fisabillillah)
    Zakah can be used to finance any form of struggle or work for the love of Allah. The following examples fall under this category, e.g. Da'wah; building & developing society's infrastructure; defending Islam, who are being oppressed; assisting poor travellers and sponsoring a student's educational expenses.
  8. Those who are stranded during a journey (Ibnus Sabil)
    Zakah can also be used to help a traveller facing difficulties in continuing his journey due to reasons such as loss of money or the break down of his vehicles, the repair of which he cannot afford.
find more here: http://www.islamic-world.net/economics/zakah.htm

the jizya is a tax which non-Muslims living in Muslim lands pay to the leadership which goes towards the administration costs of the Islamic state.
In return - they are entitled to full protection from all enemies - foreign and domestic.

In his message to the people of Al-Hirah, Khalid bin Walid is recorded as saying (in reference to the jizya),
"When a person is too old to work or suffers a handicap, or when he falls into poverty,
he is free from the dues of the poll tax;
his sustenance is provided by the Muslim Exchequer."

It is also recorded that Caliph Umar saw an elderly Jewish man begging, he asked of his condition and said to him,
"Old man! We have not done justice to you.
In your youth we realized Jizyah from you and have left you to fend for yourself in your old age".
Holding him by the hand, he led him to his own house, and preparing food with his own hands fed him
and issued orders to the treasurer of the Bait-al-mal (the treasury) that that old man and all others like him,
should be regularly doled out a daily allowance which should suffice for them and their dependents.

The protection of the dhimmi is the responsibility of the Muslims. The dhimmi are not obliged to join the army and fight to defend the Islamic State. Ibn Hazm said that one of the rights of the People of Covenant is that if Dar ul Islam is attacked and the People of the Covenant reside in that part of the land then Muslims have to die to defend them. Any leniency in this regard would be leniency in the rights of the People of Dhimma. If they choose to, non-Muslims can be part of the Islamic army and be paid a wage for this. But they are not allowed to hold positions of authority within the army.


A letter attributed to Khalid bin Walid read:
"This is a letter from Khalid ibn al-Waleed to Saluba ibn Nastuna and his people;
I agreed with you on al-jezyah and protection. As long as we protect you we have the right in al-jezyah, otherwise we have none.”

Abu Yusuf gives the following report:
After getting on peaceful terms with the people of Syria and collecting the dues of the Jizya and the Kharaj, news reached Abu ‘Ubeida that the Byzantines had amassed their troops to attack him. The effect of this was great on Abu ‘Ubeida and the Muslims. He sent messages to the rulers of cities with whose citizens he had made peace, asking them to return to their subjects the paid dues of the Jizya and Kharaj with an instruction to tell them: ‘We hereby return to you the money you have paid us, because of the news of the enemy troops amassed to attack us, but, if God grants us victory against the enemy, we will keep up to the promise and covenant between us.’ When this was delivered to the dhimmis and their money returned to them, they told the Muslims: ‘May God bring you back to us and grant you victory over them!’

this levy according to the prophetic narrations will however be abolished with the coming of Jesus son of Mary (pbuh) who shall arrive at a time of extreme tyranny from a Godless order which is killing without cause and plundering the earth, and taxing people through usury and other means until they are in extreme poverty, he will defeat them and then accept no other way of life than submission to the will of Almighty God.
this may seem extreme to you now - but will seem totally normal after experiencing the tyranny, usury and taxation of the global order.
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Al-Mufarridun
09-18-2011, 11:06 PM
Just to add, Jizya is binding only on the men, so women and children don't have to pay the Jizya. Basically it is a tax for protection. If an Islamic State is invaded, the non-Muslims don't have to participate in fighting, while it becomes mandatory on all the able Muslim men. If the Islamic state is unable to Protect the non-muslims living in it's borders, Jizya will not be collected.
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Perseveranze
09-18-2011, 11:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Mufarridun
Just to add, Jizya is binding only on the men, so women and children don't have to pay the Jizya. Basically it is a tax for protection. If an Islamic State is invaded, the non-Muslims don't have to participate in fighting, while it becomes mandatory on all the able Muslim men. If the Islamic state is unable to Protect the non-muslims living in it's borders, Jizya will not be collected.
Slaves, women, children, the old, the sick,[3] monks, hermits and the poor,[4] were all exempt from the tax (unless they were very rich).
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Novice
09-18-2011, 11:56 PM
Thank you all for the excellent answers.

I have a question regarding the political structure of a shariah state. What role do the citizens (Muslim and non-Muslim) play? What about the Shura council? Is it some sort of legislative authority? If the caliphate wrongs, how is he removed?

Thanks.
Reply

Abz2000
09-19-2011, 12:36 AM
the Muslim citizens are the extended caliphs - khulafa of Allah fil Ard (representatives of God to humanity on earth)
who have a duty to ensure the Caliph stays within the limits of the constitution - even if it means with arms:

After the ummah gave their allegiance to the first Caliph Abu Bakr (ra), he said this:

O People! I have been put in authority over you and I am not the best of you.
So if I do the right thing then help me and if I do wrong then put me straight.
Truthfulness is a sacred trust and lying is a betrayal.
The weak amongst you is strong in my sight. I will surely try to remove his pain and suffering.
And the strong amongst you is weak to me I will – Allah willing – realise the right from him fully.
When obscene things spread among any nation, calamities generally continued to descend upon them.
As long as I obey Allah and His messenger, you should obey me,
and if I do not obey Allah and His messenger, then obedience to me is not incumbent upon you.
(Now prepare for prayer).

In Islam - the common person more interested in the latest music album - or the next episode of x-factor i.e people who have no knowledge of major affairs - as can be seen here:



- do not elect the person in the person in highest position,
it works upwards,
the locals elect the person whom they deem best able to handle these affairs from among them and it continues upwards.
as can be clearly seen from when the Prophet (pbuh) would ask that they elect leaders from among them to speak with him - right from the first pledge where the Prophet (pbuh) would consult with the accepted leaders of their people.

the job of the jurists (legislative branch) is to ascertain that the proposed Caliph fulfills all the requirements.

the Shura council is the council of leaders and knowledgeable people with whom the leader consults in affairs of moment.

"Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual consultation among themselves; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance" [are praised]
Quran 42:38

even the Prophet (pbuh) was instructed to set up consultation.

Thus it is due to mercy from God that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in God; surely God loves those who trust.
Quran 3:159

the leader makes the ultimate decision after listening to all points of view, and they hear and obey - if they have an issue - they can bring it up and attempt to resolve it, or if they see he is not living up to it they can depose him. but while they accept him as leader there is no disobedience.

format_quote Originally Posted by Novice
If the caliphate wrongs, how is he removed?
it can be seen from the history of Islam that the right of the people to keep and bear arms was not infringed in the land, the only exceptions were the sacred precincts.

so when Abu Bakr says:
"So if I do the right thing then help me and if I do wrong then put me straight."
it actually means something.

Caliph Umar has been reported to have been sitting in a gathering and said:
"O Muslims, straighten me with your hands when I go wrong",
and at that instance a Muslim man stood up and said "O Amir al-Mu'minin (Leader of the Believers)
if you are not straightened by our hands we will use our sword to straighten you!".
Hearing this Caliph Umar said
"Alhamdulillah (Praise be to Allah) I have such followers."


the leaders continue to lead as long as they continue to remain within the limits of God and as long as they are physically able,
this way problems are more easily attributed to the leadership than to continuously changing political parties who may publicly blame each other for all the ills of society while mutually working for a shadow elite.
it can be seen from recent events that leaders are seen with contempt by the end of their term with talks of revolution appearing - and then a new leader making promises of change is put into the same position who may do exactly the same or worse as the previous leader, and by the time people are about to overthrow him - the next election is up.
it doesn't matter that they break every single promise - because the people just wait for the next election rather than getting up and doing something about it - and the cycle continues.
a great method for appeasement - but not a great way of sincerely running a nation since the people are more concerned with the changes and new promises than the actions. the fact that people prefer to suffer and wait it out than jump in is even acknowledged in the us declaration of independence.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.


here's an interesting piece from over a century ago:
4. WHEN WE HAVE ACCOMPLISHED OUR COUP D'ETAT WE SHALL SAY THEN TO THE VARIOUS PEOPLES:
"EVERYTHING HAS GONE TERRIBLY BADLY, ALL HAVE BEEN WORN OUT WITH SUFFERING.
WE ARE DESTROYING THE CAUSES OF YOUR TORMENT
- NATIONALITIES, FRONTIERS, DIFFERENCES OF COINAGES.
(watch "invisible empire" a new world order defined - on youtube)
YOU ARE AT LIBERTY, OF COURSE, TO PRONOUNCE SENTENCE UPON US, BUT CAN IT POSSIBLY BE A JUST ONE IF IT IS CONFIRMED BY YOU BEFORE YOU MAKE ANY TRIAL OF WHAT WE ARE OFFERING YOU."
... THEN WILL THE MOB EXALT US AND BEAR US UP IN THEIR HANDS IN A UNANIMOUS TRIUMPH OF HOPES AND EXPECTATIONS. VOTING, WHICH WE HAVE MADE THE INSTRUMENT WHICH WILL SET US ON THE THRONE OF THE WORLD BY TEACHING EVEN THE VERY SMALLEST UNITS OF MEMBERS OF THE HUMAN RACE TO VOTE BY MEANS OF MEETINGS AND AGREEMENTS BY GROUPS, WILL THEN HAVE SERVED ITS PURPOSES AND WILL PLAY ITS PART THEN FOR THE LAST TIME BY A UNANIMITY OF DESIRE TO MAKE CLOSE ACQUAINTANCE WITH US BEFORE CONDEMNING US.


5. TO SECURE THIS WE MUST HAVE EVERYBODY VOTE WITHOUT DISTINCTION OF CLASSES AND QUALIFICATIONS, in order to establish an absolute majority, which cannot be got from the educated propertied classes.
In this way, by inculcating in all a sense of self-importance, we shall destroy among the GOYIM the importance of the family and its educational value and remove the possibility of individual minds splitting off, for the mob, handled by us, will not let them come to the front nor even give them a hearing; it is accustomed to listen to us only who pay it for obedience and attention. In this way we shall create a blind, mighty force which will never be in a position to move in any direction without the guidance of our agents set at its head by us as leaders of the mob. The people will submit to this regime because it will know that upon these leaders will depend its earnings, gratifications and the receipt of all kinds of benefits


here's a good example:


the problem with a man made constitution is that people will eventually amend it - and when they keep amending it - it doesn't mean anything anymore - either the majority will change it due to a desire or accept changes through psychological and statistical manipulation - or a certain group will seize major events to declare a state of emergency and carry out their planned objectives.

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Zafran
09-19-2011, 03:34 AM
salaam

Bilderberg group - intresting

peace
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Al-Mufarridun
09-19-2011, 06:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000

After the ummah gave their allegiance to the first Caliph Abu Bakr (ra), he said this:

O People! I have been put in authority over you and I am not the best of you.
So if I do the right thing then help me and if I do wrong then put me straight.
Truthfulness is a sacred trust and lying is a betrayal.
The weak amongst you is strong in my sight. I will surely try to remove his pain and suffering.
And the strong amongst you is weak to me I will – Allah willing – realise the right from him fully.
When obscene things spread among any nation, calamities generally continued to descend upon them.
As long as I obey Allah and His messenger, you should obey me,
and if I do not obey Allah and His messenger, then obedience to me is not incumbent upon you.
(Now prepare for prayer).
Probably the shortest inaugural address ever. Simple and straight forward, yet it carries so much weight.

Jzk
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Perseveranze
09-19-2011, 05:39 PM
Check this out -

http://www.facebook.com/notes/caliph...86203284759438
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Riana17
09-19-2011, 05:50 PM
Salam Alaikkum

Subhanallah our new member is pretty clever, May Allah guide you Brother. We encourage you to ask as much as you want please.
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Novice
09-20-2011, 04:32 AM
Thank you for the answers, link, and compliment :embarrass.

I want to shift the discussion to a number of issues that have become quite controversial, so I hope you can clear any misconceptions and provide clarifications.
The first being slavery. I've read that the Qur'an neither condones nor condemns slavery, and that Muslims (non Muslims as well?) are encouraged to free slaves (correct me if I am wrong). Is there any justification given in the Qur'an or hadiths (or any other Islamic references) as to why Islam does not condemn slavery outright and require people to free slaves?
Reply

جوري
09-20-2011, 05:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Novice
Thank you for the answers, link, and compliment :embarrass.

I want to shift the discussion to a number of issues that have become quite controversial, so I hope you can clear any misconceptions and provide clarifications.
The first being slavery. I've read that the Qur'an neither condones nor condemns slavery, and that Muslims (non Muslims as well?) are encouraged to free slaves (correct me if I am wrong). Is there any justification given in the Qur'an or hadiths (or any other Islamic references) as to why Islam does not condemn slavery outright and require people to free slaves?
Islam came at a time when slavery was deeply entrenched in the society, so Islam worked towards the gradual elimination of slavery.
  • Islam encouraged the emanciplating of slaves; The Qur'an does so in many places:
    4:92, 5:89, 58:3, 90:13, 24:33, 9:60, 2:177, 2:221, 4:25, 4:36.
    The Prophet said:
    "A person who frees a Muslim slave, Allah will deliver every one of his limbs from the fire of Hell in return for each of the limbs of the slave (Sahîh Bukhârî, and Sahîh Muslim)
    Shaykh Abu Bakr Al-Jazâ'iry writes:
    Islam orders making an agreement to facilitate a slave in buying back his freedom if he requests such an agreement, and it encourages helping him in that with shares or wealth. Allah the Almighty said:
    And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation) give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. And give them something (yourselves) out of the wealth of Allah which He has bestowed upon you. (Qur'an 24:33)

    (Al-Jaza'iry, Minhaj Al-Muslim, vol. 2, p.551)
    The Prophet said: "If any of you have a slave girl, whom he gives good education and excellent training, and then he emancipates her and marries her, he shall have a two-fold reward. " (Sahîh Bukhârî)
  • Islam eliminated and restricted the sources of slavery, prohibiting the enslavement of free people, the Prophet said:
    The Prophet said, "Allah says, 'I will be against three persons on the Day of Resurrection: [...] One who sells a free person (as a slave) and eats the price (Sahîh Bukhari)
    "There are three people whose prayers are not accepted. And one of these three is a man who enslaves a free person (Rajulun iitabada muharraran)" (Sunan Abî Dawûd)
  • Islam obligated freeing slaves in many circumstances as expiation. Expiation for breaking an oath is freeing a slave (2:221), unintentionally causing a Muslim's death is freeing a slave (4:221), expiation for Zihâr is freeing a slave (4:221), breaking one's fast in ramadan is freeing a slave (Sahîh Muslim), etc.
  • Islam elevated the status of slaves and promoted universal human equality; the Prophet said:
    "Yield obedience to my succesors, even if he is a black ethiopian slave" (Mishkat al-Masaabih, At-Tabreezee)
    "No one should say, "my slave" as all of you are slaves of Allah." (Bukhari, Muslim, An-Nasaa'ee and Ibn Hibban)
  • Islam prohibited the poor treatment of slaves; the Prophet said:
    "Whoever strikes his slave or beats him, then his expiation is to free him." (Sahîh Muslim)
    They are your brothers; give them to eat what you eat; give them to wear what you wear. (Sunan At-Tirmidhi)
    "He who treats his slave badly will not enter Paradise". (Musnad Ahmad)
    "You are to honor them and to treat them like your children, and feed them from what you eat" (Musnad Ahmad)

So the claim that Islam simply allowed slavery is not true at all. Islam was actually instrumental in the gradual elimination of slavery for the reasons listed above. Muhammad (S) bought freedom of 63 former slaves, A’isha (RA) 67, Abbas (RA) 70, Abdullah ibn Umar (RA) 1000 and Abdur Rahman ibn Awf 30,000.

Islam did the best thing possible in working towards the removal of slavery and the elimination of any associated injustices. The fantasy of someone simply snapping their fingers and declaring the immediate abolishment of slavery in the 7th century is a nice idea, but unfortunately unrealistic and impossible. Slavery was deeply entrenched in the society and consequently could not be eliminated immediately. Islam took several steps to eliminate the injustices of slavery and drive humanity in the direction of its gradual elimination.

As for relations with female slaves, then again it is forbidden to abuse them whether physically or sexually, in the case of rape. Islam commands just, kind and compassionate treatment. The expiation for mistreating one's slave is to set them free and in the event of abuse the state may implement a ta'zîr (discretionary) punishment on the perpetrator.

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...3-slavery.html
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Ramadhan
09-20-2011, 08:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Novice
The first being slavery. I've read that the Qur'an neither condones nor condemns slavery, and that Muslims (non Muslims as well?) are encouraged to free slaves (correct me if I am wrong). Is there any justification given in the Qur'an or hadiths (or any other Islamic references) as to why Islam does not condemn slavery outright and require people to free slaves?
First of all, we have to know what is defined as "slaves" in the qur'an and ahadeeth with respect to slavery issue:
Slaves during the time of Muhammad as well as during biblical times were mostly well cared for and considered as members of the family.
Evidence of this:
Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case I advise you to help them. (Bukhari, Iman, 22; Adab, 44; Muslim, Iman, 38–40; Abu Dawud, Adab, 124)
Not one of you should [when introducing someone] say ‘This is my slave’, ‘This is my concubine’. He should call them ‘my daughter’ or ‘my son’ or ‘my brother’.
(Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 2, 4)
Whosoever kills his slave, he shall be killed, whosoever imprisons his slave and starves him, he shall be imprisoned and starved himself. (Tirmidhi, al-Ayman wa l-Nudhur, 13)
The modern form of slavery as cruel servitude of humanity was invention of medieval Europe and European immigrants in other places
(thanks to Paul, by the way who wrote in his epistles:
“5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.
7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men,
8 because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free”
(Ephesians 6:5-9). )

Until the evil of the European trade in black slaves, slavery was largely a by-product of wars between nations, the conquered peoples becoming the slaves of their conquerors. In the formative years of Islam, no reliable system existed of exchanging prisoners of war. The available means of dealing with them were either (i) to put them all to the sword; or (ii) to hold them and attend to their care in prison; or (iii) to allow them to return to their own people; or (iv) to distribute them among the Muslims as part of the spoils of war.

Second, abolition of slavery was conducted in stages, not unlike abolition of khamr (intoxicants, mostly alcohol at that time), because the customary was so entrenched in society. However, as another evidence that Qur'an is truly from the creator, there is no denial that there will always be wars throughout human history, and if there is war then there's prisoners of wars (captives), which is also termed as "slave" and Islam outlines the rights and relationships between captors and captives (slaves).

And here are the verses and ahadeeth that would eventually abolish slavery in stages:

Qur'an 2:221 Surah Al-Baqarah (The Cow): Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire, and Allah inviteth unto the Garden, and unto forgiveness by His grace, and expoundeth thus His revelations to mankind that haply they may remember.

Qur'an 5:89 Surah Al Ma'idah (The Table Spread): Allah will not take you to task for that which is unintentional in your oaths, but He will take you to task for the oaths which ye swear in earnest. The expiation thereof is the feeding of ten of the needy with the average of that wherewith ye feed your own folk, or the clothing of them, or the liberation of a slave, and for him who findeth not (the wherewithal to do so) then a three day fast. This is the expiation of your oaths when ye have sworn; and keep your oaths

Qur'an 4:92 Surah An-Nisa (Women): It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless it be by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing slave, and pay the blood money to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. If he (the victim) be of a people hostile unto you, and he is a believer, then (the penance is) to set free a believing slave. And if he cometh of a folk between whom and you there is a covenant, then the blood money must be paid unto his folk and (also) a believing slave must be set free. And whoso hath not the wherewithal must fast two consecutive months. A penance from Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise.

Qur'an 58:3-4 Surah Al-Mujadilah (She That Disputeth): Those who put away their wives by saying they are as their mothers and afterward would go back on that which they have said; the penalty in that case is the freeing of a slave before they touch one another. Unto this ye are exhorted; and Allah is informed of what ye do. And he who findeth not the wherewithal, let him fast for two successive months before they touch one another; and for him who is unable to do so the penance is the feeding of sixty needy ones. This, that ye may put trust in Allah and His messenger. Such are the limits imposed by Allah; and for disbelievers is a painful doom.

"There are three categories of people against whom I shall myself be a plaintiff on the Day of Judgement. Of these three, one is he who enslaves a free man, then sells him and eats this money" (al-Bukhari and Ibn Majjah).

Qur'an 2:177 Surah Al-Baqarah (The Cow): It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing.

You should know that no Arab is superior over a non-Arab and, no non-Arab is superior over any Arab, no white is superior over black and no black is superior over white. Superiority is by righteousness and God-fearing [alone]. (Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 411)

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari: "The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Food, Meals, Volume 7, Book 65, Number 286)"
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Novice
09-20-2011, 11:41 AM
Thanks.

Another issue is the infamous 'wife beating verse.' Now, I've read that the word 'adribuhunna' can have multiple meanings, besides 'hit' or 'beat.' In addition, I've read that 'adribuhunna' does translate to beat/hit, but one must use a miswak and lightly tap his wife/wives when administering the punishment. Which one of these versions is more accurate? Why?
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Salahudeen
09-20-2011, 11:52 AM
About the slavery issue, slavery after Islam had given slaves rights was like a profession, people automatically thing negative the minute they hear the word slavery because they're imagining appalling conditions that African slaves went through when the slave trade was rampant in the USA however in Islam because slaves had so many rights slavery became like a profession for people, much like a modern day butler or maid.

Also let me ask you, if the use of cars and other motor vehicles was abolished, what would happen to our society? it would collapse right because we've become so dependent on these motor vehicles that if they were abolished the whole country would fall apart because we're so dependent on motor vehicles to meet our needs, there would be chaos, well similarly the society back then was so dependent upon slaves that if slavery was abolished the society would have fallen apart so instead slavery was removed gradually by making it a great rewardable act to free a slave, and slowly slowly through this method the number of slaves was decreasing and it didn't impact upon the society in a negative way because people were able to make alternative plans.
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Abdul-Raouf
09-20-2011, 12:24 PM
Read about Umar(RA) .. You will know how Khilafat was....
http://www.islamicboard.com/companio...nd-caliph.html

Gandhi said “The best thing to happen to India would be to be reigned by a dictator as just and upright as Umar, RA.” One would wonder why a non-violent exponent of Gandhi’s stature should regard the rule of a dictator as the ‘best thing’.


Our Ummah is very much in need of it now ... :(
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Salahudeen
09-20-2011, 12:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Novice
Thanks.

Another issue is the infamous 'wife beating verse.' Now, I've read that the word 'adribuhunna' can have multiple meanings, besides 'hit' or 'beat.' In addition, I've read that 'adribuhunna' does translate to beat/hit, but one must use a miswak and lightly tap his wife/wives when administering the punishment. Which one of these versions is more accurate? Why?
This will help you
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Perseveranze
09-20-2011, 04:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Novice
Thank you for the answers, link, and compliment :embarrass.

I want to shift the discussion to a number of issues that have become quite controversial, so I hope you can clear any misconceptions and provide clarifications.
The first being slavery. I've read that the Qur'an neither condones nor condemns slavery, and that Muslims (non Muslims as well?) are encouraged to free slaves (correct me if I am wrong). Is there any justification given in the Qur'an or hadiths (or any other Islamic references) as to why Islam does not condemn slavery outright and require people to free slaves?

Roger Du Pasquier, Unveiling Islam

To answer this question, it should first be remarked that Islam has tolerated slavery but has never approved of it, and that all its teachings and prescriptions in this regard lead to its alleviation as far as possible in the short term, and, in the longer term, conduce to its progressive suppression. To abolish it would have been impossible in a world in which it was generally practiced by all the states which bordered on the new Muslim empire, and in which the idea of challenging the principle itself had not occurred to anyone. It was the custom to enslave prisoners of war -- when these were not simply massacred -- and the Islamic state would have put itself at a grave disadvantage vis-a-vis its enemies had it not reciprocated to some extent. By guaranteeing them humane treatment, and various possibilities of subsequently releasing themselves, it ensured that a good number of combatants in the opposing armies preferred captivity at the hands of Muslims to death on the field of battle.
Also -
Prohibiting slavery in the context of seventh-century Arabia apparently would have been as useful as prohibiting poverty; it would have reflected a noble ideal but would have been unworkable on an immediate basis without establishing an entirely new socioeconomic system. - Jacob Neusner, Tamara Sonn, Comparing Religions through Law: Judaism and Islam, 1998

And -

Slavery was too fundamental to the structure of Arabian society in the 7th century to be abolished easily. Doing so would have estranged many of the tribes that Muhammad sought to bring together, and severely disrupted the working of society.

Hope that answers it.
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Abz2000
09-20-2011, 09:07 PM
here's the verse:

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them to guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance); for Allah is most High and Great (above you all). If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers. If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation; for Allah has full knowledge and is acquainted with all things." (An-Nisa': 34-35)

it is the duty of the people to enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and it is obvious that the stronger would be given more responsibilities as long as they are just.

it is laying out the proper orderly conduct.
it is clear that if one has more strength than the other, then it is highly likely that the stronger would be given more authority.
this is clearly seen in the u.n security council and they seem to act like animals without any sense of right or justice.

this one explains it all:



it is amazing how people justify the government shooting, beating and tear-gassing their wife or child in order to maintain "law and order",
yet find it amazing that the head of the house would use a smack on the chest to maintain law and order in the house.

you don't use truncheons:







if the husband acts unjustly - she can get a divorce as can be seen in the narrations.
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Abz2000
09-20-2011, 09:49 PM
The monopoly on violence (German: Gewaltmonopol des Staates) is the conception of the state expounded by Max Weber in Politics as a Vocation. According to Weber, the state is that entity which claims a monopoly on violence, which it may therefore elect to delegate as it sees fit. Weber's conception of the state as holding a monopoly on violence has figured prominently in philosophy of law and political philosophy in the twentieth century.
It defines a single entity, the state, as exercising authority on violence over a given territory; territory was also deemed by Weber to be a prerequisite feature of a state. Such a monopoly, according to Weber, must occur via a process of legitimation, wherein a claim is laid which legitimises the state's use of violence.

problem - what if the state has been proven to be fraudulent and murdered millions, and even shot people dead in train stations and then lied about it to the public?
Reply

Novice
09-21-2011, 01:41 AM
Thanks.

The punishment for Apostasy. Are there differing opinions on the matter?
Reply

Abz2000
09-21-2011, 03:53 AM
you will get conflicting views on this from both apologists and from absolutists,
however it is not absolute on either argument.
we see here that centre ground is the most understandable due to the variety of recorded cases.

The Qur'an says,
"Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Surely the Right Path is clearly distinct from error." Al Baqarah, 2:256.

"Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief - Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path." Surah An-Nisa', 4:137.

"Let him who wishes to believe, do so; and let him who wishes to disbelieve, do so." (Al-Kahf: 29)

then we have the hadith:

Ibn Abbaas radhi allahu anhuma says: the Prophet (pbuh) said "Execute the one who renegades from his Deen."
(Sahih al-Bukhariy Hadith6299, Sunan al-Nasaa’iy Hadith4059 edited by Shaikh Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuddah)

‘Uthmaan (ra) narrates hearing the Prophet (pbuh) as saying "……The one who changes his religion after accepting Islam must be executed."
(Sunan al-Nasaa’iy Hadith4057 edited by Shaikh Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuddah)

Abdullah (ra) narrates the Prophet (pbuh) as saying "It is not Halaal to kill a Muslim except for 3 reasons:
…no.3.The one that turns away from his Deen, thereby disassociating himself from the group of Muslims."
(Sahih Muslim Hadith4351 edited by Shaikh Khalil ma’moon Sheeha)

how do we reconcile both?
we must bear in mind that the Quran is a stable and continuous source of reference while most of the hadith can be contiuous - but some rulings are applied in similar situations to the ones in which the prophet (pbuh) was at the time. there are cases where people apostated and then returned to Islam and even became leaders and warriors later on - during the time of the Prophet (pbuh) and afterwards during the time of Abu Bakr (ra).
this guidance was applied according to the situation.

According to some scholars, if a Muslim consciously and without coercion declares their rejection of Islam and does not change their mind after the time allocated by a judge for research, then the penalty for male apostates is death, and for women life imprisonment. However, this view has been rejected by some scholars (e.g. Hasan al-Turabi), who argue that the hadith in question should be taken to apply only to political betrayal of the Muslim community, rather than to apostasy in general. These scholars regard apostasy as a serious crime, but argue for the freedom to convert to and from Islam without legal penalty, and consider the aforementioned Hadith quote as insufficient justification for capital punishment. Today apostasy is illegal in most Muslim countries, and subject in some to the death penalty. Executions for apostasy are rare, but allowed in many Muslim countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia. Apostasy is legal in secular Muslim countries such as Turkey.
The hadith is quoted both by supporters of the death penalty and critics of Islam. Some Islamic scholars point out it is important to understand the hadith in its proper historical context: it was written when the nascent Muslim community in Medina was fighting for its existence, and the enemies of Islam encouraged rebellion and discord within the community. At that time any defection would have had serious consequences for the Muslims, and the hadith may well be about treason, rather than just apostasy. Under the terms of the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah any Muslim who returned to Mecca was not to be returned, terms which the Prophet accepted.

"306 British and Commonwealth soldiers [were] executed for...desertion during World War I," records the Shot at Dawn Memorial. "During the period between August 1914 and March 1920 more than 20,000 servicemen were convicted by courts-martial of offences which carried the death sentence. 3,000 of those men were ordered to be put to death and of those just over 10% were executed...."

In the United States, before the Civil War, deserters from the Army were flogged; while, after 1861, tattoos or branding were also adopted. The maximum U.S. penalty for desertion in wartime remains death,
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Perseveranze
09-21-2011, 07:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Novice
Thanks.

The punishment for Apostasy. Are there differing opinions on the matter?
http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/09/apostasy/
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Abz2000
09-21-2011, 08:43 PM
an informative piece - i however "apostasized" from loonwatch ages ago due to their apologetic nature and lack of putting things into context.
they'll take the msm's spin on an event for gospel truth, then condemn fools who commit irrational crimes which are forbidden by the Quran - in an apologetic manner, without questioning the facts behind the story and without mentioning the bigger crimes that the crime (which IS to be condemned) was committed in retaliation to.

the Quran clearly tells us how to deal with it:
217. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month.
Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence);
but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members."
Tumult and oppression are worse than fighting.
Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can.
And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
218. Those who believed and those who suffered exile and fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah,- they have the hope of the Mercy of Allah. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful
Quran 2:217-218.

if it's forbidden by Islam, then why not make that clear go into the context of the issue instead of apologising for Islam?
Reply

Novice
09-23-2011, 04:15 AM
Thanks.

A question about hadiths. Which ones are considered authentic/reliable? Which ones are not? How is the authenticity or lack of authentic determined?

Besides the Qur'an and hadiths, are there any other Islamic sources that are looked upon for information/clarifications?
Reply

جوري
09-23-2011, 04:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Novice
Thanks.

A question about hadiths. Which ones are considered authentic/reliable? Which ones are not? How is the authenticity or lack of authentic determined?

Besides the Qur'an and hadiths, are there any other Islamic sources that are looked upon for information/clarifications?
just click on the links..
Science Of ḤadīthḤadīth & Its Origins

A Brief History Of Ḥadīth Collection And Criticism
This is a lecture given by Dr. Jonathan Brown, a young, eloquent western ḥadīth scholar at University of Washington where he works as an Assistant Professor. In this lecture, he briefly discusses the history of ḥadīth collection, its criticism and the evolution of western ḥadīth scholarship from Goldziher, Schacht, Juynboll to Motzki. A lot of misconceptions about ḥadīth are clarified in this lecture.

Are There Any Early Ḥadīths?

On The Nature Of Ḥadīth Collections Of Imam Bukhari and Muslim

Explosive Increase Of Isnad & Its Implications

On The Transmitters Of Isra'iliyyat (Judeo-Christian Material)
Ḥadīth CriticismManuscripts
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Novice
09-23-2011, 05:06 AM
Excellent, thanks.

It'll take me a while to get through all that, so don't expect more questions for some time. :p
Reply

Novice
10-25-2011, 07:20 PM
A certain topic came up while having a discussion about Islam with a friend of mine. It concerns itself with the three Jewish tribes of Medina, and the Prophet Muhammad's relations with them. Can you shed light on what exactly occurred (given the historical background at the time)?
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kidcanman
10-30-2011, 08:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Novice
Hi,

I have a multitude of questions about Islam (encompassing a number of issues), so I thought I'd register here and use this thread to ask away.
What is your purpose in seeking information from this board? If you feel that you know something about Islam that you don't agree with then present your point of contention. However, if your purpose is simply to gain knowledge, then I contend that soliciting random "lay-Muslims" on the internet, will most likely result in confusing you further. If you sincerely wish to gain knowledge about Islam, read the Quran, and search on Google for credible supplemental books. If you have a point of contention, then bring it.
Reply

MartyrX
10-30-2011, 06:10 PM
I'd just like to say, you should feel free to ask all of the questions you want. It's always good to seek out knowledge, and may I suggest you call a local Mosque and speak with a imam as well. They are very helpful and will more than gladly give you any answers you might need.
Reply

Novice
11-17-2011, 08:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by kidcanman
What is your purpose in seeking information from this board? If you feel that you know something about Islam that you don't agree with then present your point of contention. However, if your purpose is simply to gain knowledge, then I contend that soliciting random "lay-Muslims" on the internet, will most likely result in confusing you further. If you sincerely wish to gain knowledge about Islam, read the Quran, and search on Google for credible supplemental books. If you have a point of contention, then bring it. The average follower does not understand the true essence and teachings of their religion.
Well the replies so far have been quite sufficient and provide the necessary substantiations. I've been on this forum for years and have passively encountered a number of individuals with an excellent ability at explaining the many aspects of Islam.
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kidcanman
11-22-2011, 07:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Novice
Well the replies so far have been quite sufficient and provide the necessary substantiations. I've been on this forum for years and have passively encountered a number of individuals with an excellent ability at explaining the many aspects of Islam.
My apologies Novice. I did't expect somebody who knows enough to ask detailed questions to actually feel a need to consult an internet forum for answers to these questions. Therefore I assumed that you were attempting to challenge Islamic teachings indirectly. I realize that I was wrong now.
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Novice
11-26-2011, 10:12 PM
No worries, Kidcanman. :)
Reply

Novice
11-26-2011, 10:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Novice
A certain topic came up while having a discussion about Islam with a friend of mine. It concerns itself with the three Jewish tribes of Medina, and the Prophet Muhammad's relations with them. Can you shed light on what exactly occurred (given the historical background at the time)?
Bump....
Reply

Insaanah
11-29-2011, 10:46 PM
Peace, Novice.

These two links might help a bit:

http://www.onislam.net/english/readi...n-madinah.html
http://www.onislam.net/english/readi...nah-part2.html
Reply

Qaswa
11-30-2011, 12:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Novice
Another issue is the infamous 'wife beating verse.' Now, I've read that the word 'adribuhunna' can have multiple meanings, besides 'hit' or 'beat.' In addition, I've read that 'adribuhunna' does translate to beat/hit, but one must use a miswak and lightly tap his wife/wives when administering the punishment. Which one of these versions is more accurate? Why?
If we treat our wives in a manner as shown by our Prophet (pbuh), we will understand what effect 1. admonishing and 2. refusing to share bed with them would have on them. The prophet (pbuh) never spoke harsh to his wives, he treated them so gently, he raced with them on the desert, he played with them while taking bath (somebody can post the hadeeth as narrated by A'isha (RA)).
It might be an everyday affair for many of us now to turn our faces away from our wives, but If we go to the details of what Islam teaches on treating one's wife and if we treat them in the exact same manner then admonishing them and refusing to share bed with them will certainly be a greater punishment (this is emotional not a physical punishment) that one need not think about resorting to the third which is hitting.
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Perseveranze
11-30-2011, 01:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Novice
A certain topic came up while having a discussion about Islam with a friend of mine. It concerns itself with the three Jewish tribes of Medina, and the Prophet Muhammad's relations with them. Can you shed light on what exactly occurred (given the historical background at the time)?
Asalaamu Alaikum,

Not 100% sure on what you mean, but this may help - http://muslim-responses.com/Banu_Qurayza/Banu_Qurayza_
Reply

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