Why British Muslim women struggle to find a marriage partner

[Ar-RaYYan]

Wednesday 18 January 2012

Why British Muslim women struggle to find a marriage partner | Syma Mohammed
Older, unmarried female Muslims outnumber their male counterparts for many reasons. Fussiness is not one of them

A few years ago, at the behest of my mother, I attended a Muslim marriage event in Glasgow. These are events where Muslim men and women meet for the purpose of seeking an ideal marriage partner.

At the event, there were around five women to every man. Well-turned-out women sat around dejected, twiddling their thumbs, waiting to speak to the select few.

Sadly, it's not an isolated example. Up and down the country, hundreds of women in their 30s and 40s within the Asian Muslim community are struggling to find a marriage partner.

Nearly all Muslim singles events are female-dominated, unless organisers artificially construct a level playing field by selling equal numbers of male and female tickets.

In the latter case, there's always a stampede for female tickets. December's Canary Wharf Professionals Muslim marriage event saw the female ticket quota sell out three weeks before, whereas the male ticket quota only sold out days before.

Moreover, the average age of women at such events is typically higher than men. Rooful Ali, founder of Emerald Muslim events, believes that the average age of women attending tends to be early 30s, while for men it is late 20s.

Such occurrences are symptomatic of the growing Muslim spinster crisis, which has been brewing for some time and is rooted in cultural, rather than religious, trends.

First, there has always been a tradition for British men originating from the Indian subcontinent to marry women from their country of origin. Families encourage their sons to do so for a host of reasons, including the cultural expectation that girls from "back home" will stay with and look after their in-laws.

The second trend is for Muslim men to marry "women of the book" (Christian or Jewish women), which is permissible in Islam. Men are more likely to work and socialise with British Christian women than their female Muslim counterparts, which leads to a higher chance of such marriages occurring.

Both trends lead to a shortfall of available Muslim men.

For Muslim women, marrying men from their country of origin is rarely considered an option as they tend to want social, economic and intellectual equals or superiors. Men from their country of origin tend to have different mindsets and struggle to find jobs no matter how well qualified they are, thereby leaving women as the main breadwinners. This situation can often create a strenuous dynamic in relationships with men from patriarchal cultures.

Muslim women, unlike men, are restricted as to whom they can marry. Marrying men outside the faith is only considered permissible in most communities if the men convert.

Moreover, in line with national trends, Muslim women academically outperform the men. According to the Equality and Human Rights Commission's How Fair is Britain? report, Bangladeshi and Pakistani women are more likely to be employed as professionals than their male counterparts. This means that professional Muslim women have an even smaller pool of intellectual and economic equals to choose from.

This is exacerbated by the fact that Asian men are likely to choose partners of lower economic and intellectual status as they traditionally grow up with working fathers and stay-at-home mothers, and generally choose to replicate this model.

Unfortunately, these imbalances are not widely acknowledged – many label older unmarried women as fussy. The effect on women is crippling. Many become depressed as a huge amount of importance is attached to marriage, and unmarried women are made to feel that they've failed.

Any real solution would require a complete cultural shift in mindset by parents, community leaders and imams. This will need geographically, socially and economically fractured communities to work together to achieve change – no easy feat. Until they do so, many women who want to marry men of the same faith will continue to struggle.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...?newsfeed=true

What do you think about the reasons stated in the article?

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

Well, it seems I may have to arrange a trip to the UK if and when I am ever ready for marriage. ;D

That's really all I have to say. I'm not in the UK and I'm not Asian, so I'm not qualified to comment on either of those issues.

[ardianto]

there were around five women to every man.

:sl:

Just wonder, in position like this, why "those brothers" are still complain they cannot get married?

[Ar-RaYYan]

:sl:

Just wonder, in position like this, why "those brothers" are still complain they cannot get married?

:wa:

Fusiness? :X

The article actually gives reasons which I kind of agree with some of them such as:

1:Brothers are making unfair generalisations where they believe muslim girls born and bred in the West are not willing to look after their in-laws or they are high maintenance
2.Some brothers marry 'women of the Book' which leads to a shortfall of available Muslim men.
3.Some men dont like to marry ' professional' sisters due to the possibilty of them becoming the main breadwinners which might lead to feelings of emasculation and wider family gossips about the couple

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[Reflections]

^In all fairness..considering the points you've highlighted..it's the women as well who have issues which is why they struggle to find marriage partners. I think it's from both sides..boils down to how much you're willing to compromise, and for who's sake -ultimately for the sake of Allah. Besides, I think people are waaay to fussy..I mean so what if someone doesn't have 1 out of the 100 requirements of a husband/wife..doesn't mean a marriage still can't work out...it's not the be all end all.

[Ar-RaYYan]

^In all fairness..considering the points you've highlighted..it's the women as well who have issues which is why they struggle to find marriage partners. I think it's from both sides..boils down to how much you're willing to compromise, and for who's sake -ultimately for the sake of Allah. Besides, I think people are waaay to fussy..I mean so what if someone doesn't have 1 out of the 100 requirements of a husband/wife..doesn't mean a marriage still can't work out...it's not the be all end all.

Of course. I agree. It is not just the guys fault that these women are struggling to get married. It lies with both parties and we cannot blame one gender for this problem. I think they are equally blameworthy and each have their issues and fusiness and yeah I totally agree about compromising. I was just answering Br. Ardianto's post and giving a couple of possible reasons why those brothers are complaining about not being able to get married.

[ardianto]

I am sorry to hear what happened to sisters in UK.

But I just want to know, is it allowed for Pakistani women to get married with men from other races?

[Ar-RaYYan]

^I am not from the Indian subcontinent so I might not be qualified to answer this question but most of my friends are originally from there and having already asked them this question; they would say that Islamically there is nothing that prevents them from marrying a brother from another race but culturally its easier for guys to get married to non-Pakistani/non-Bengali than its for them to get married to a non-Pakistani/non-Bengali brother.

['Abd-al Latif]

:salamext:

One things for sure, polygamy would solve the problem. :X

[ardianto]

Some men dont like to marry ' professional' sisters due to the possibilty of them becoming the main breadwinners which might lead to feelings of emasculation and wider family gossips about the couple

Feeling of emasculation and people gossips if the wife become breadwinner maybe is universal problem, not only among Pakistani and Bangladeshi people, but also in Indonesia.

I have heard some complains from female 'professional' in Indonesia who could not meet someone, "Why there is no a man who propose marriage to me? is it because they feel inferior to me?". And there is a misconception about female 'professional' that maybe a universal misconception. There are men who believe, if the wife has her own income, she will not respect the husband, if the wife has higher income, she will look down to the husband.

But this is not true. There are many female 'professional' who always respect to their husbands. Even my wife was a female 'professional' too who had high income, but she always respect to me. And actually, married a female 'professional' not a bad thing for a husband, as long as the husband does not consider business to make money as a competition between husband and wife.

But of course, for a man who wants power over his wife, wants his wife always depend on him, and he can order anything without his wife can fight, female 'professional' is not the right choice, because female 'professionals' are smart and independent women.

[ardianto]

One things for sure, polygamy would solve the problem.

But if all of the wives are coming from the "back home", not from UK?.

I have read an article in my newspaper about what Pakistani and Bangladeshi men in UK do. In example, a taxi driver in London married five wives (Yes, five!). All of his wives were coming from Pakistan, not from UK. He brought all of his wives to London and register them as single parents to gain financial support from government, so, he doesn't need to fulfill his wives needs.

Without intention to disrespect other ethnics, bad behavior of a number of Pakistani and Bangladeshi men in UK have been spread in Indonesian newspapers.

[joyous fairy]

Those reasons given in the article can also be labelled as fussiness from someone elses point of view.

I think sometimes its more because parents dont approve of their sons/daughters choice, so girls can struggle to find someone thats both appealing to them as well as their parents. And Pakistani parents (the ones I have come across) are VERY fussy. A lot of them dont approve of their kids even wanting to marry someone from another eithnic background let alone actually going ahead with it. But this goes for boys and girls so not too sure where the article got its subjects from.

It is also true though that women prefer to marry someone from a similar background as them. Maybe because it is easier to relate to someone who has had a similar upbringing.

[Who Am I?]

I may be totally off my nut here, so you can pick this theory apart. In fact, please do. If I'm totally wrong, tell me and let me know why. Anyway, this is my take on things:

:sl:

If you wait to find the "perfect" partner, you will never be married. That's all I have to say about that.

As for the rest, this isn't just a Muslim problem, or even an Asian problem. It's a universal problem. Many men in many cultures have this notion of masculinity. They HAVE to be the top earner. They HAVE to be the provider. Some would say that this goes back to our evolutionary biology, when men were the hunter/gatherers and women took care of the young. But I think it's deeper than that. There is a subconscious undercurrent in our culture and our society that we men are supposed to be the leaders, the providers, etc.

The problem is that this same society that promotes this attitude does nothing to teach young boys how to lead like men. We have become selfish and lazy. Everyone cares about themselves and no one else, and society has failed to teach my generation of boys how to become men. The schools won't do it. The parents won't do it. Even religious communities won't do it. So it falls to us to learn for ourselves, because no one else is going to teach us the skills we need to become the right kind of men.

Couple that with another segment of society that promotes equality of women and men. We are not equal. We're different. That doesn't make men better than women or women better than men. It just means that we have different needs and different desires. Women are by and large better at relationships than men. This is fact. I know I am bad at relationships, even with other men. I'm not good at expressing my emotions (other than anger). I've always been a bit of a loner.

So what you have is a lot of men with their male egos who want to be "the man" of the family who don't know how to be a man, and a lot of women who want a "real man" but can't find one, because we don't know how to be "real men". So it leaves everyone frustrated and unhappy, and people jump into relationships because they don't want to be alone. Most of those relationships fail sooner or later, which restarts the cycle.

For me personally, I don't care if my wife/girlfriend makes more money than I do. In fact, let her earn the money and I'll stay home. ;D I'm OK with that.

I just have to get over my annoying self-esteem issues, and I'm good...

[Salahudeen]

I think the article is spot on, men go abroad because they prefer a wife who does not mind living with in laws, so women here are left on the shelf unless they adapt to meet the requirements of asian men. Also a woman from abroad will not expect much from her husband financially, where as some women here, not all but some make a big deal about the guys job, and refuse to get married to him if he's salary is under a certain level.

Also because women academically out perform men they don't want to marry someone who hasn't done as well as them, I.E a woman who's a solicitor will want to marry someone who's out performed her and would laugh at the idea of marrying a man who is a simple security guard, and people will also laugh saying "she's a solicitor what's she doing marrying him".

So the security guard who didn't do well academically compared to the many women out there, goes abroad and marries a woman who doesn't mind his job lol. And the female solicitor is sitting on the shelve waiting for a barrister or Dr to come and propose lol. This is true story btw.

I think everyone needs to lower their standards. Among my relatives there was a man who's job is postman and he was interested in woman who had degree and was qualified optician, everybody laughed at him and told him "why you looking at her for, she's educated with degree, you're just a postman they'll never give her" so he decided to go abroad also lol.

I think if everyone lowered their standards more people would get married.

[~Zaria~]

Assalamu-alaikum,

I think there are challenges in many parts of the world with regards to finding a suitable marriage matter.

Personally, I think that the reason we are facing these sorts of issues is because our muslim brothers and sisters have stepped very far away from how a marriage should take place...... from an islamic point of view.

Consider the times of our nabi (sallalahu alaihi wasalam) and the sahabi.
How did marriages occur then?
How should marriage occur in Islam?

Quite simply:

--> a friend/ family member makes a recommendation of a particular boy/ girl.
--> The families as well as the 2 individuals of concern meet.
--> While the families get a chance to converse, the man and woman are allowed to chat in private (but with a mahram not too far off) - they get the chance to assess each others compatibility in terms of physical attributes, personality, goals in life, etc.
--> If there is some affinity felt - each go back, and would read Istikhaarah salaah, and seek guidance from Allah with regards to this very important life choice.
--> If there is a positive sign received from both parties - the families meet once again, and a date is set soon afterwards for a nikkah.

Simple.

Ask yourself this: how many marriages do you know of, that has followed the above procedure?
Personally, I can count these on my one hand.
And this is why we have gone all wrong!


-> There is no need for the current 'I need to get to know him/ her for a little while longer' stories.
-> There is more emphasis placed on the man/ woman's piety, than their looks (while this is important - certainly, this should not top the list of finding the ideal marriage partner).
-> There is little concern regarding the ethnicity of the prospective spouse (considering the person would be recommended by one close to the family, and Istikharaah is sought - what more do you need to put your mind at ease?)......also, do consider, that our beloved nabi (sallahu alaihi wasalam) also married
women who were not of his ethnicity either......i.e its not the persons race that matters, its his/her piety and taqwa that should concern us.


If marriage is done with the right intentions, and with the couple having a similiar goal in this dunya (i.e the aakhirah) - then how easy does Islam make marriage?


It is WE..... that find reasons to complicate every matter of life.
It is WE..... that insist on finding a mate - and marrying him/ her out of infatuation/ 'love'.....how far down the line of Hollywood 'brainwashing' have we gone!
It is WE..... that insist on marrying later rather than sooner.....because we want the degree, the career, the house, the car, and a 'chance to enjoy the single life' before we think about settling down.

With regards to the situation in the UK, the question to ask is:

As a muslimah, do you really want to settle down with any one of these men:

1:Brothers are making unfair generalisations where they believe muslim girls born and bred in the West are not willing to look after their in-laws or they are high maintenance
2.Some brothers marry 'women of the Book' which leads to a shortfall of available Muslim men.
3.Some men dont like to marry ' professional' sisters due to the possibilty of them becoming the main breadwinners which might lead to feelings of emasculation and wider family gossips about the couple

Personally, I think they are doing our UK muslimahs all a favour by going out and marrying 'women of the Book' (in any case, do these people actually exist in the true sense anymore??) - no doubt, these marriages following a period of illicit courtships, etc.


In my humble opinion, the struggle in finding the right marriage partner - is not that there are too few men, or any of the reasons mentioned above.

But simply, that it is becoming more difficult to find a muslim man/ woman - filled with the love of Allah (subhana'watala) and his rasul (sallalahu alaihi wasalam), and who is seeking marriage in the correct manner, and with the correct intentions.

HOWEVER: NB! do realise, that for us to be seeking such a person, means that WE become such a person as well.

And insha Allah, all our single brothers and sisters would be blessed with the opportunity of ful-filling half their deen, in blessed unions.

Salaam

[joyous fairy]

I think the article is spot on, men go abroad because they prefer a wife who does not mind living with in laws, so women here are left on the shelf unless they adapt to meet the requirements of asian men. Also a woman from abroad will not expect much from her husband financially, where as some women here, not all but some make a big deal about the guys job, and refuse to get married to him if he's salary is under a certain level.

Also because women academically out perform men they don't want to marry someone who hasn't done as well as them, I.E a woman who's a solicitor will want to marry someone who's out performed her and would laugh at the idea of marrying a man who is a simple security guard, and people will also laugh saying "she's a solicitor what's she doing marrying him".

So the security guard who didn't do well academically compared to the many women out there, goes abroad and marries a woman who doesn't mind his job lol. And the female solicitor is sitting on the shelve waiting for a barrister or Dr to come and propose lol. This is true story btw.

I think everyone needs to lower their standards. Among my relatives there was a man who's job is postman and he was interested in woman who had degree and was qualified optician, everybody laughed at him and told him "why you looking at her for, she's educated with degree, you're just a postman they'll never give her" so he decided to go abroad also lol.

I think if everyone lowered their standards more people would get married.

You are correct in some ways but I think sometimes women want men who have high aspirations just like them, so they could work on it together. But then again you get some who are more career-orientated and dont particularly give thoughts to marriage as much as they should, so become quite old and then start looking, when all the good men have gone! lol.

The living with in-laws thing is kind of annoying I think. Fair enough, in like Pakistan or somewhere it would be ideal to live with them, but in England I think it is a big problem. Firstly there wont be much privacy in the home, its not like Muslims have really big houses here. And being cooped up with them can cause a lot of problems.

Secondly, I have heard of LOTS of women being mistreated by in-laws. Im not saying all in-laws are bad, but women should not be expected to live with them as soon as they are married. Its like they are marrying the family, not the guy, which is really sad IMO.

[Salahudeen]

You are correct in some ways but I think sometimes women want men who have high aspirations just like them, so they could work on it together. But then again you get some who are more career-orientated and dont particularly give thoughts to marriage as much as they should, so become quite old and then start looking, when all the good men have gone! lol.

The living with in-laws thing is kind of annoying I think. Fair enough, in like Pakistan or somewhere it would be ideal to live with them, but in England I think it is a big problem. Firstly there wont be much privacy in the home, its not like Muslims have really big houses here. And being cooped up with them can cause a lot of problems.

Secondly, I have heard of LOTS of women being mistreated by in-laws. Im not saying all in-laws are bad, but women should not be expected to live with them as soon as they are married. Its like they are marrying the family, not the guy, which is really sad IMO.

I agree but men are raised by their parents to marry a girl who wants to live with in laws lol, so thats why they have that mentality, their parents tell them "good girl is one who looks after your mother also" etc. Not that I agree that its requirement of every marriage that the girl lives with in laws but in some situations its best. But this is the problem, some people think its mandatory in every marriage and then the mentality gets passed onto each generation etc. so it never goes away.

If there is non mehram men around then it should be avoided, but for someone like me with no bro's, sis or dad, I expect it from my wife also and will probably end up going to Pakistan to find such a woman.

Mother in laws are stereotyped here lol everyone thinks their evil, yes thats what happened with lots of women in my family, all the women who excelled in education are in their early and late 30s still single, but all the women who never excelled in education are married with kids, I see a pattern :hmm:

[joyous fairy]

I agree but men are raised by their parents to marry a girl who wants to live with in laws lol, so thats why they have that mentality, their parents tell them "good girl is one who looks after your mother also" etc. Not that I agree that its requirement of every marriage that the girl lives with in laws but in some situations its best. But this is the problem, some people think its mandatory in every marriage and then the mentality gets passed onto each generation etc. so it never goes away.

If there is non mehram men around then it should be avoided, but for someone like me with no bro's, sis or dad, I expect it from my wife also and will probably end up going to Pakistan to find such a woman.

Mother in laws are stereotyped here lol everyone thinks their evil, yes thats what happened with lots of women in my family, all the women who excelled in education are in their early and late 30s still single, but all the women who never excelled in education are married with kids, I see a pattern :hmm:

I agree. Parents do tend to pass on that mentality to their kids.

In your case, yes that would be ideal and I dont think women would object to that. It would be wrong to expect you to leave your mum alone and go and live somewhere else with your wife.

But some women get married to guys who have brothers/sisters and parents living in one house and they expect the wife to do all the housework and cook for the whole family! Its unfair. :hmm:

Lol, Ive seen that pattern around here too :p But, also I have noticed that the ones who do not go into further education end up getting married from Pakistan or wherever at an early age. And more because their parents have wanted them to. :hmm:

[Salahudeen]

I know its unfair but this has become part of culture and I don't know how it can be eradicated because people are stubborn to change, if my sister was in that situation I would feel sorry for her but would tell her most men expect this that doesn't mean its right, but the chances are you will have this problem with most men you meet so what is a girl meant to do, not marry cos every guy she meets expects her to live with in laws and just stay single.

I have an aunty who when she first got married her husband required this of her also due to financial reasons but when they had kids by that time he could afford his own place financially so he decided they should move out. When she was living with in laws she didn't like it but she put up with it and now everythings ok, and I bet those girls who rejected him before he married my aunty cos he wanted them to live with in laws are feeling a bit envious. Even when he decided to move out his family didn't like it and told him to stay but by that time he was so in live with his wife he didn't listen to them lol. And now the family don't like his wife and accuse her of stealing their son and trying to take him away from the family so its impossible situation.

I have another relative who rejected a man cos he wanted her to live with his mother only, and my grandad told her she was silly cos it wouldn't have been forever. And she's 37 and never been married, cos she keeps refusing men due to their basic job, or wanting her to live with in laws. But she says, she'd rather stay single than be married and not happy. So each to their own I guess.

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

See, the whole living with your in-laws thing is puzzling for me, but I am not Asian and was not born Muslim.

Here in the USA, it's expected that you move out when you turn 18. You go off to university and you never look back. My sister did this. Except for a short time after she finished school, she left home at 18 and never looked back.

I, being the socially awkward nerd that I am, lived with my parents until I was almost 31. It never felt like it was time for me to go, and then one day I literally just woke up and decided that it was time to make my own way in the world.

But I was by far the exception to the rule. Almost all of my friends that are my age left home as soon as they finshed high school and they never looked back.

Brother Salahudeen does mention a good point though, that ties in with my theory. He was talking about the well-educated women that want someone of greater or equal status for a partner. This is unfortunately something that I have seen in my own life. I have a theory on that too, but I won't go into details here. I will just say that formal education and personal income are overrated, and our society places too much emphasis on both of them.

There is also the whole Western notion of "falling in love" before you marry, but that's a whole rant unto itself.

In closing, I will say this: Don't worry, Asian sisters. Here's one white guy who would marry you... ;D

['Abd-al Latif]

But if all of the wives are coming from the "back home", not from UK?.

I have read an article in my newspaper about what Pakistani and Bangladeshi men in UK do. In example, a taxi driver in London married five wives (Yes, five!). All of his wives were coming from Pakistan, not from UK. He brought all of his wives to London and register them as single parents to gain financial support from government, so, he doesn't need to fulfill his wives needs.

Without intention to disrespect other ethnics, bad behavior of a number of Pakistani and Bangladeshi men in UK have been spread in Indonesian newspapers.

The law of Allah is universal. The best of generation practised this and families had never been so prosperous.

The man you mentioned is clearly chasing his own desires by marrying one over the limit.

[CosmicPathos]

Those reasons given in the article can also be labelled as fussiness from someone elses point of view.

I think sometimes its more because parents dont approve of their sons/daughters choice, so girls can struggle to find someone thats both appealing to them as well as their parents. And Pakistani parents (the ones I have come across) are VERY fussy. A lot of them dont approve of their kids even wanting to marry someone from another eithnic background let alone actually going ahead with it. But this goes for boys and girls so not too sure where the article got its subjects from.

It is also true though that women prefer to marry someone from a similar background as them. Maybe because it is easier to relate to someone who has had a similar upbringing.

I have a friend from Sri Lanka who married a Punjabi Pakistani Muslimah.

That being said, if Allah swt blesses me with a daughter, I'd make sure she only gets married to a practicing Pakistani Muslim, who will look after her and will be from her own ethnicity.

So I am glad that I could be FUSSY.

[Who Am I?]

I have a friend from Sri Lanka who married a Punjabi Pakistani Muslimah.

That being said, if Allah swt blesses me with a daughter, I'd make sure she only gets married to a practicing Pakistani Muslim, who will look after her and will be from her own ethnicity.

:sl:

Yeah, see, this is one thing I worry about as a white guy, a sort of reverse discrimination on the part of Asian and African born Muslims against Western white converts. Not just when it comes to marriage but with relationships in general. There have been a few times when I get strange looks from some of the brothers when I go to masjid to pray.

[CosmicPathos]

:sl:

Yeah, see, this is one thing I worry about as a white guy, a sort of reverse discrimination on the part of Asian and African born Muslims against Western white converts. Not just when it comes to marriage but with relationships in general. There have been a few times when I get strange looks from some of the brothers when I go to masjid to pray.

W salam,

lol, how is this discrimination? I am not racist, we both can have lunch together on the same table. But you do have to understand that many Muslims (of my parent's generation) are very wary and suspicious of White people. Not because they hate them, but because British (and French and Dutch) colonialism (which was once again dominated by White people) over the last 300 years have imprinted a very wrong image of white people, cultures of white people etc on people from back home. I think it is wrong, but you have to also understand where they are coming from. They have suffered a lot and they have seen their parents suffer due to Colonial hegemony on their lands, and they began to associate it with European cultures to make sense of what was going on.


Just because someone does not want their daughter to marry from other ethnicity, it does not mean they are racist or something. Everyone has their preferences.

As for British convert women not being able to married, it relates to the fact these women are more educated, more outgoing, unaccepting of cultures from back home, so it is only natural that many Muslim men would rather marry someone from their own race etc rather than marrying someone who was grown in environment where sex education is given at 5th grade, where ideas of feminism and materialism are widely accepted etc. I have many a times many native Canadian friends tell me how they wish they could be in a relationship with immigrant Muslim girls.

[Aprender]

Just because someone does not want their daughter to marry from other ethnicity, it does not mean they are racist or something. Everyone has their preferences.

Still, the way it's worded would leave one to believe there might be some racist undertones there. Not accusing you of being racist, but coming from an American perspective where racism is still a hot topic, especially the area that I live in, saying this would get you into a dispute with many people.

[CosmicPathos]

Secondly, I have heard of LOTS of women being mistreated by in-laws. Im not saying all in-laws are bad, but women should not be expected to live with them as soon as they are married. Its like they are marrying the family, not the guy, which is really sad IMO.

I have seen patients who was a mother in law and her daugter in law locked her in a room and starved her to death.

[CosmicPathos]

Still, the way it's worded would leave one to believe there might be some racist undertones there. Not accusing you of being racist, but coming from an American perspective where racism is still a hot topic, especially the area that I live in, saying this would get you into a dispute with many people.

Well then I guess it is time Americans start accepting the freedoms of others as much as they want theri own freedoms. So if someone says they are really into Asian girls and not American girls, that is not considered racist?

[Who Am I?]

W salam,

lol, how is this discrimination? I am not racist, we both can have lunch together on the same table. But you do have to understand that many Muslims (of my parent's generation) are very wary and suspicious of White people. Not because they hate them, but because British (and French and Dutch) colonialism (which was once again dominated by White people) over the last 300 years have imprinted a very wrong image of white people, cultures of white people etc on people from back home. I think it is wrong, but you have to also understand where they are coming from. They have suffered a lot and they have seen their parents suffer due to Colonial hegemony on their lands, and they began to associate it with European cultures to make sense of what was going on.


Just because someone does not want their daughter to marry from other ethnicity, it does not mean they are racist or something. Everyone has their preferences.

As for British convert women not being able to married, it relates to the fact these women are more educated, more outgoing, unaccepting of cultures from back home, so it is only natural that many Muslim men would rather marry someone from their own race etc rather than marrying someone who was grown in environment where sex education is given at 5th grade, where ideas of feminism and materialism are widely accepted etc. I have many a times many native Canadian friends tell me how they wish they could be in a relationship with immigrant Muslim girls.

:sl:

<=== History nerd.

I know all about the legacy of colonialism in Africa and Asia. I used to have a lot of "white man's guilt" about what happened during that time. But that's the thing: the only way we're ever going to get over ourselves is to drop these preconceived notions about other races and other cultures. Yeah, I'm a white guy who happens to be a lazy American, but that doesn't mean that all of us are. ;D

Anyway, I wasn't calling you a racist, brother. Whether you are or not does not matter to me. That's between you and God, and it is not my place to judge you for that. I was merely pointing out that I do fear that some Muslim families might not want their daughters to marry me if and when I ever am ready to take that step.

Maybe this fear is unfounded. But I do know that I have met women of other ethnicities who straight out told me that they prefer their own kind. I was even on a date with one Latin girl who told me that. I wanted to ask her why she was on a date with me but I didn't. Maybe I should have. Honestly, I have always been attracted to Asian and Latin women over white women. Does that make me racist? I don't know. Again, it's not my place to judge.

I don't want to be alone for the rest of my life, but considering the obstacles that are in my path, I may have to be, and honestly, that bothers me a little. So I hope you can understand why this is a sensitive issue for me.

[Aprender]

Well then I guess it is time Americans start accepting the freedoms of others as much as they want theri own freedoms. So if someone says they are really into Asian girls and not American girls, that is not considered racist?

Someone then might say to that guy "Well, what's wrong with American girls?" And then some stereotypes of an entire group of people might follow in response to that which could be considered racist even if it wasn't necessarily meant in that way. :hmm:

I'm not saying that you're wrong or calling you a racist or anything of the sort. I'm just saying that's the perception that some people would have from those words. I can understand a fathers want to make sure his daughter doesn't end up with the wrong kind of guy.

But to relate it to the topic it saddens me that there are some parents out there who would disapprove of their son marrying me because of my nationality or ethnicity. That and because, well, it's happened to me before when I was a child that a mother did not want her son anywhere near me because of my ethnicity.

[Hamza Asadullah]

:sl:

<=== History nerd.

I know all about the legacy of colonialism in Africa and Asia. I used to have a lot of "white man's guilt" about what happened during that time. But that's the thing: the only way we're ever going to get over ourselves is to drop these preconceived notions about other races and other cultures. Yeah, I'm a white guy who happens to be a lazy American, but that doesn't mean that all of us are. ;D

Anyway, I wasn't calling you a racist, brother. Whether you are or not does not matter to me. That's between you and God, and it is not my place to judge you for that. I was merely pointing out that I do fear that some Muslim families might not want their daughters to marry me if and when I ever am ready to take that step.

Maybe this fear is unfounded. But I do know that I have met women of other ethnicities who straight out told me that they prefer their own kind. I was even on a date with one Latin girl who told me that. I wanted to ask her why she was on a date with me but I didn't. Maybe I should have. Honestly, I have always been attracted to Asian and Latin women over white women. Does that make me racist? I don't know. Again, it's not my place to judge.

I don't want to be alone for the rest of my life, but considering the obstacles that are in my path, I may have to be, and honestly, that bothers me a little. So I hope you can understand why this is a sensitive issue for me.

Yes there are many Muslim women who may not consider you for marriage because of your ethnicity but then there are also many that would. Look at things positively. Allah is the match maker. He finds us the partners we are destined for.

So as long as we go about finding a partner in the right way within the boundaries of Islam and make the effort and ask of Allah then inshallah he will find us the right partners.

So dont be negative and lose hope but go about things in the right manner, make effort and put your trust in Allah and things will work out for the best inshallah.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Someone then might say to that guy "Well, what's wrong with American girls?" And then some stereotypes of an entire group of people might follow in response to that which could be considered racist even if it wasn't necessarily meant in that way. :hmm:

I'm not saying that you're wrong or calling you a racist or anything of the sort. I'm just saying that's the perception that some people would have from those words. I can understand a fathers want to make sure his daughter doesn't end up with the wrong kind of guy.

But to relate it to the topic it saddens me that there are some parents out there who would disapprove of their son marrying me because of my nationality or ethnicity. That and because, well, it's happened to me before when I was a child that a mother did not want her son anywhere near me because of my ethnicity.

Many people are still bound by their culture which is still deeply rooted but this is slowly dissapearing now as those cultural restrictions are mainly from previous generations. Our generation think differently and are more educated and open minded. That is why now you will see many more mixed race marriages. This new trend is on the increase and soon there will come a time where such backward cultural restrictions will dissapear forever.

Yes many people may not consider you because of your ethnicity but what about the many who will? Therefore have hope and put your trust in Allah. He will find you soneone best for you inshallah.

[GuestFellow]

:salamext:

One things for sure, polygamy would solve the problem. :X

:wa:

I highly doubt it. It is expensive to marry 4 wives. :skeleton:

[joyous fairy]

I have a friend from Sri Lanka who married a Punjabi Pakistani Muslimah.

That being said, if Allah swt blesses me with a daughter, I'd make sure she only gets married to a practicing Pakistani Muslim, who will look after her and will be from her own ethnicity.

So I am glad that I could be FUSSY.

Why is that? What if she really liked someone that was from a different race to you, and that person was a good practicing Muslim? Would you not allow that?

I have seen patients who was a mother in law and her daugter in law locked her in a room and starved her to death.

That is sad. Ok, yes sometimes daughter in laws are mean as well. I didnt say all in-laws are bad anyway, theres good and bad everywhere. But my main point is, living with in-laws can create lots of problems.

[Who Am I?]

Yes there are many Muslim women who may not consider you for marriage because of your ethnicity but then there are also many that would. Look at things positively. Allah is the match maker. He finds us the partners we are destined for.

So as long as we go about finding a partner in the right way within the boundaries of Islam and make the effort and ask of Allah then inshallah he will find us the right partners.

So dont be negative and lose hope but go about things in the right manner, make effort and put your trust in Allah and things will work out for the best inshallah.

:sl:

Yeah, I did sound like I was whinging a bit, so I apologize for that.

No, I have many things to change before I am even ready for this step. It's not worth worrying about at this point.

[Hamza Asadullah]

:sl:

Yeah, I did sound like I was whinging a bit, so I apologize for that.

No, I have many things to change before I am even ready for this step. It's not worth worrying about at this point.

:wa:

Can a person ever really be fully ready for anything? Will our trials ever end? Will our stresses and problems ever cease? Will we ever be stress or problem free? Another question we could ask ourselves is are we ready for death? But whether were ready or nor death will come to us. So when someone says they are not ready I always think but then using that logic a person will never really be ready because they will continue to be tried and tested with hardships. They will continue to face adversities, problems and stresses. As long as one has ones sanity then a person is ready. Thats my take on it anyway.

[CosmicPathos]

Why is that? What if she really liked someone that was from a different race to you, and that person was a good practicing Muslim? Would you not allow that?

No I wont really allow that. I can find as good practicing Muslim guys for her from my own community too, no? As for her like, for her to like someone, it means she has to have conversation with the guy etc, I'd make sure that she does not hang out with non-mehrams. And even if she develops a crush for someone at school, it does not mean that you get whatever you like. Life is unfair. I wont marry her against her choice, but it does not mean I'd give into all of her likes/desires either.

Moreover, if the guy happens to be convert, which is amazing, but his family happens to be kaafir, I am not sure if I'd want my daughter to have to deal with kaafir in-laws. Again, I'd be happy to help the guy in giving dawah to his family, but marrying into their family is not necessary to give good dawah.

When Allah swt says that first try to find poor ppl in your family and then give them zakat, and then move out into wider community, why should I ignore good practicing Muslim guys from within my wider family to marry my daughter (if I have one)? Why not from my community? Plus what sort of grand kids, if Allah blesses my daughter with children, would I want to see? Those who are confused about what ethnicity theirs is? I know that Islam is our priority but Allah swt also has told us that we are all different so we can recognize each other. I'd like to maintain this difference, when it comes to my daughter, and grand children.

[CosmicPathos]

This new trend is on the increase and soon there will come a time where such backward cultural restrictions will dissapear forever.

And the new trend is also bringing with it wider issues of divorce, incompatibility etc. Let us not become arrogant and call our parents and their generation backward just cuz we think/feel that we are open-minded just because we have grown up in the country/cultures of kufaar and can speak better English than our parents.

[CosmicPathos]

I don't want to be alone for the rest of my life, but considering the obstacles that are in my path, I may have to be, and honestly, that bothers me a little. So I hope you can understand why this is a sensitive issue for me.

I think you are worrying for no reason. if Allah has destined you to marry someone from other ethnicity then that will happen. I do not think you should be worried about that.

But I am just curious, why are not you interested in a white revert to Islam, provided she is beautiful, and all that you are looking for? Do not you think there would be more commonality between you two, such as both reverting to Islam, both growing in same country/culture/christianity background etc, than lets say if you marry a Latino Muslima?

[ardianto]

@bro Who Am I

Remember this story? http://30mosques.com/2011/08/nors-letters/

That's a story about a White American convert who married a Malay woman. Malay people (Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore native, Brunei, Philippine) are different. They will not reject someone just because race diversity.

Frankly, when I was young I 'softly reject' an Arab girl who tried to approach me. I rejected her not because she is Arab, but because I still wanted to being alone.

[CosmicPathos]

@whoamI: plus we all have ardianto here, you can rely on him if you decide to marry an Indonesian muslima! I am sure, his wife has many single friends :p

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

Brother Cosmic mentioned something that is one of those "obstacles" that I was referring to earlier. My family is not Muslim. In fact, they don't even know about my conversion, and I'm probably not going to tell them anytime soon. This is something that any sister is going to have to understand and deal with, and honestly, I'm not sure that's even fair to her to expect her to deal with it.

Also, I would have no problem with marrying a white convert like myself. I have had relationships with white women so it's not a problem for me. It's just that I have always been more physically attracted to Asian or Latin women. But looks and ethnicity is far down my scale for desirable qualities in a woman. Intelligence, sense of humor, and respect for herself and her faith far outweigh everything else.

[ardianto]

@whoamI: plus we all have ardianto here, you can rely on him if you decide to marry an Indonesian muslima! I am sure, his wife has many single friends

If bro WhoAmI serious want to get marry, InshaAllah I will help him. I will try to contact some Islamic teachers here to find a religious Muslim woman.

But at first bro WhoAmI must reveal his identity to me. I will not try to find a religious woman for someone who I don't know. Then after (InshaAllah) I find a woman, bro WhoAmI must come to my place, and do nikah here. I will become his witness. After getting married he can back to US with his wife and live there.

Once again. Maybe that woman is not physicaly beautiful, but InshaAllah, pious.

[joyous fairy]

No I wont really allow that. I can find as good practicing Muslim guys for her from my own community too, no? As for her like, for her to like someone, it means she has to have conversation with the guy etc, I'd make sure that she does not hang out with non-mehrams. And even if she develops a crush for someone at school, it does not mean that you get whatever you like. Life is unfair. I wont marry her against her choice, but it does not mean I'd give into all of her likes/desires either.

Moreover, if the guy happens to be convert, which is amazing, but his family happens to be kaafir, I am not sure if I'd want my daughter to have to deal with kaafir in-laws. Again, I'd be happy to help the guy in giving dawah to his family, but marrying into their family is not necessary to give good dawah.

When Allah swt says that first try to find poor ppl in your family and then give them zakat, and then move out into wider community, why should I ignore good practicing Muslim guys from within my wider family to marry my daughter (if I have one)? Why not from my community? Plus what sort of grand kids, if Allah blesses my daughter with children, would I want to see? Those who are confused about what ethnicity theirs is? I know that Islam is our priority but Allah swt also has told us that we are all different so we can recognize each other. I'd like to maintain this difference, when it comes to my daughter, and grand children.

I can understand if you would prefer for her to marry someone from the same culture/race, but saying that she HAS TO does not make any sense to me. And community can be people in your immediate area even. Like in my area there are Muslims from different parts of the world, and most of them are not converts so they wont have kafir parents.

The last point you have made, IMO is exactly why you should allow your kids to marry someone froma different background.

For instance if they have mixed parents they are more likely to understand the diversity of Muslims.

Also, they are likely to understand that anybody can be a Muslim, not just Pakistanis (Asians), I have heard tons of kids think that only Pakis can be Muslim.

And the difference point, dont you think they'd be adding to the diversity of Muslims by mixing with different cultures? Thats more likely to make an impact, than sticking to your own group. There are tons of Pakistani Muslims IN Pakistani that marry from their own background, but if you had the opportunity to share with another culture, why not?

[CosmicPathos]

I can understand if you would prefer for her to marry someone from the same culture/race, but saying that she HAS TO does not make any sense to me. And community can be people in your immediate area even. Like in my area there are Muslims from different parts of the world, and most of them are not converts so they wont have kafir parents.

The last point you have made, IMO is exactly why you should allow your kids to marry someone froma different background.

For instance if they have mixed parents they are more likely to understand the diversity of Muslims.

Also, they are likely to understand that anybody can be a Muslim, not just Pakistanis (Asians), I have heard tons of kids think that only Pakis can be Muslim.

And the difference point, dont you think they'd be adding to the diversity of Muslims by mixing with different cultures? Thats more likely to make an impact, than sticking to your own group. There are tons of Pakistani Muslims IN Pakistani that marry from their own background, but if you had the opportunity to share with another culture, why not?

You have points that are not irrational. But I do not think you are adding to genetic diversity by marrying someone else from other ethnicity. I think you have provided no evidence for that.

Pakis thinking they are the only Muslims? That is surprising to me. Growing up in a Pakistani society, I never got that impression. Pakistanis, in general, are more aware of the diversity of Muslims from all over the world, and more accepting of it, at least more than Gulf Arabs. Recently, the Greek Muslim Hamza Tzortzis went to Pakistan, and Pakistanis really welcomed him with open arms.

Most importantly, when you give daughter to someone from other culture, it essentially means that your grand child will adopt most cultural values of their father. That is unacceptable to me to have grand children who are not related to my race/culture etc. It basically means that your culture will die out and grand children wont be able to carry it on. Now that is a haunting thought for any grand father to have his legacy wiped out just cuz his daughter liked someone else outside the ethnicity!!

[CosmicPathos]

intelligence, sense of humor, and respect for herself and her faith far outweigh everything else.

But are not these things present in almost any human you meet? assuming they do not have a psychiatric disease.

I mean I know kaafir women in my class who do binge drinking on weekends, but they are also intelligent, have amazing sense of humor, and have great respect for themselves and their race too.

[ardianto]

You have points that are not irrational. But I do not think you are adding to genetic diversity by marrying someone else from other ethnicity. I think you have provided no evidence for that.

What's wrong with marry someone from other ethnicity? I am not pure Javanese, I have Chinese blood. Even people often call me "koh/koko" (brother in Chinese language) because they thought I am chinese.

Pakis thinking they are the only Muslims? That is surprising to me. Growing up in a Pakistani society, I never got that impression. Pakistanis, in general, are more aware of the diversity of Muslims from all over the world, and more accepting of it, at least more than Gulf Arabs. Recently, the Greek Muslim Hamza Tzortzis went to Pakistan, and Pakistanis really welcomed him with open arms.

One of my customer is Pakistani who worked in my city for two years (now he's already back to Pakistan). I was so impressed with his manner, he always said "Assalamualaikum" and shake hand when meet local Muslims, including me.

Most importantly, when you give daughter to someone from other culture, it essentially means that your grand child will adopt most cultural values of their father. That is unacceptable to me to have grand children who are not related to my race/culture etc. It basically means that your culture will die out and grand children wont be able to carry it on. Now that is a haunting thought for any grand father to have his legacy wiped out just cuz his daughter liked someone else outside the ethnicity!!

Depend on the culture, bro. There are cultures which people could accept son/daughter in-law from other cultures, there are cultures that could not.

Frankly, I am not sure that Arab girl parents would allow me to marry their daughter if I accept her. From my observation, Arab women in Indonesia always marry Arab men, but Arab men could marry non-Arab women.

[Ramadhan]

See, the whole living with your in-laws thing is puzzling for me, but I am not Asian and was not born Muslim.

:sl:

I just want to address this one misconception.

Living with in-laws is NOT from Islam.

But in some societies, it is practiced due to economic necessity.

[Ramadhan]

That being said, if Allah swt blesses me with a daughter, I'd make sure she only gets married to a practicing Pakistani Muslim, who will look after her and will be from her own ethnicity.

So I am glad that I could be FUSSY.

Will you also marry only a pakistani girl?

As for British convert women not being able to married, it relates to the fact these women are more educated, more outgoing, unaccepting of cultures from back home, so it is only natural that many Muslim men would rather marry someone from their own race etc rather than marrying someone who was grown in environment where sex education is given at 5th grade, where ideas of feminism and materialism are widely accepted etc. I have many a times many native Canadian friends tell me how they wish they could be in a relationship with immigrant Muslim girls.

You have made gross generalization.
I know western muslima reverts who are very pious and do not have this "ideas of feminism and materialism etc"

[Ramadhan]

Brother Cosmic mentioned something that is one of those "obstacles" that I was referring to earlier. My family is not Muslim. In fact, they don't even know about my conversion, and I'm probably not going to tell them anytime soon. This is something that any sister is going to have to understand and deal with, and honestly, I'm not sure that's even fair to her to expect her to deal with it.

:sl:

I know many Indonesian women who are married to caucasian reverts.
Maybe Indonesian society are more accepting towards people from other cultures.

[Ramadhan]

But are not these things present in almost any human you meet? assuming they do not have a psychiatric disease.

I mean I know kaafir women in my class who do binge drinking on weekends, but they are also intelligent, have amazing sense of humor, and have great respect for themselves and their race too.

I hate to split hairs, but you overlooked that br. whoami wrote also : respect for her faith (NOT race), which I assume must be Islam.

[ardianto]

I just want to address this one misconception.

Living with in-laws is NOT from Islam.

But in some societies, it is practiced due to economic necessity.

Here, my answer to sis chu chu when she asked me about living with in-laws

There is no any rule in Islam that mention, after getting married husband and wife should live in .......

If you want to have your own space and do not want to live with your in-laws, just talk to your husband.

But sis, not every husband afford to buy or rent a house. If your husband has not afford to buy or rent the house and decide to live with his parent, you should live with him. And always support him to make money and always make du'a wish Allah give him enough income to buy or rent a house, and then you can move to your own space.

[CosmicPathos]

I hate to split hairs, but you overlooked that br. whoami wrote also : respect for her faith (NOT race), which I assume must be Islam.

Okay, that is really splitting hairs. Add to my description that they are also respect their own faith which could be Christianity or atheism.

[CosmicPathos]

Will you also marry only a pakistani girl?

Most likely yes, inshAllah. If not, then still if I have children, they will get to follow what their father follows.

[CosmicPathos]

I know western muslima reverts who are very pious and do not have this "ideas of feminism and materialism etc"

are these Western Muslimahs professionally educated? I mean are they practicing lawyers, employed engineers, practicing medical doctors, accomplished scientists? If they are all that and still are very pious and not influenced with feminism and materialism, brother I am interested!

[CosmicPathos]

Living with in-laws is NOT from Islam.

Yup, this is true.

[CosmicPathos]

Maybe Indonesian society are more accepting towards people from other cultures.

That is true. Unfortunately, it is in general considered shame to marry a Britisher in Pakistan, because even if they become Muslim, many interpret Islam through their British cultural lens. Current politician Imran Khan married a British wealthy woman Jemima, and there was lots of criticism on him. But again, in his young age he used to be a playboy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jemima_Khan

[Banu_Hashim]

Living with in-laws is NOT from Islam.

:sl:

Is it in contrary to Islam though?

[Ramadhan]

Is it in contrary to Islam though?

:sl:

In general, I do not see why it is contrary to Islam.

However, there may be complications. For example, if there are other relatives who also live with the in-laws then it could be hard to observe proper clothing and modesty when living in the same house, especially if it is a small house.

[ardianto]

Is it in contrary to Islam though?

:sl:

There is no any rule in Islam that forbid a wife lives in the in-laws house. But we cannot say "In Islam, wife is wajeeb (obligated) to lives with in-laws".

Honestly, I found some people assume living with in-laws for wives is obligated in Islam.

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

Yeah, I'm done with this thread. I'm tired of repeating myself, though that is largely my fault. I let it go too far, and for that, I am sorry.

Enjoy the discussion, brothers and sisters.

[Salahudeen]

I'm just wondering, how big was the house of the prophet (saw), compared to the average house today?

[Hamza Asadullah]

And the new trend is also bringing with it wider issues of divorce, incompatibility etc. Let us not become arrogant and call our parents and their generation backward just cuz we think/feel that we are open-minded just because we have grown up in the country/cultures of kufaar and can speak better English than our parents.

:sl:

There is nothing wrong in our parents generation in having a preferance of their children marrying into the same race but when it becomes a strict rule that they must do so and that under no circumstances they must marry any other race then that is contrary to Islam. If the person is pious and has good character then it is wrong for anyone to reject them.

In the time of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) a man approached the Prophet asking him to recommend him someone for his daughter. The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) said to him what about Bilal? The man repeated again find me someone for my daughter and the Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wasallam) repeated the same again.

What is even worse about the deeply rooted cultural restrictions many parents place on the children is that they cannot marry out of their cast. This caste system comes from Hinduism but it is still deeply rooted in many of our cultures. It is clrarly contray to Islam to force ones children to only marry in the same caste.

Another deeply rooted backward cultural practise is forced marriage. Using blackmail to force ones son or daughter to marry someone within the family. I personally know many people this has happenefd to and they are living miserable lives.

So there is nothing wrong with having a preferance but our preferance should not be forced upon our children because forcing marital pteferances upon them is contrary to Islamic teachings. I hope such backward cultural practises are eradicated in our generations.

[ardianto]

I'm just wondering, how big was the house of the prophet (saw), compared to the average house today?

Watch this video

[Salahudeen]

I don't think there's anything wrong with have preferences based on grounds of compatibility, i.e a father may say I want my daughter to marry someone from this race because they'd be more compatible with each and have better understanding of each other due to their similarities, when I was young I used to want to marry caucasian woman lol but as I grew up I realized I would not be compatible at all with one because of the totally different up bringing, my family would let me marry out if I wanted to but I foresee problems now so I have preference for my own race as a result. I don't see what's wrong with that, its about what you think your compatible with. The issue isn't race, its compatibility. I still prefer caucasian women but the chances of finding one I'm compatible with are very slim, so I know its not wise to go down that road. thats not racism :hmm:

[Hamza Asadullah]

I don't think there's anything wrong with have preferences based on grounds of compatibility, i.e a father may say I want my daughter to marry someone from this race because they'd be more compatible with each and have better understanding of each other due to their similarities, when I was young I used to want to marry caucasian woman lol but as I grew up I realized I would not be compatible at all with one because of the totally different up bringing, my family would let me marry out if I wanted to but I foresee problems now so I have preference for my own race as a result. I don't see what's wrong with that, its about what you think your compatible with. The issue isn't race, its compatibility. I still prefer caucasian women but the chances of finding one I'm compatible with are very slim, so I know its not wise to go down that road. thats not racism :hmm:

As mentioned in my previous post preferance is fine and I am sure most of us have preferances but parents forcing their sons or daughters not to marry a pious person ojust because they are of another caste, region, nationality or race is contrary to Islamic teachings and is unacceptable.

There are so many unhappy people out there who have been forced to marry people they did not want to. There are also so many others who have been given so many restrictions on who they can and cant marry that they are still in their 30's unmarried.

So its fine having preferances but dont force it upon your children where you would go to the extent of disowning them if they married "out of the caste", because that is the extent many parents will go to just because their children married out of their own particular caste.

So I am all for preferances of same race or ationality but totally against forced marriages against ones will and rejecting good pious rishtha based upon caste, nationality or race.

[Salahudeen]

As mentioned in my previous post preferance is fine and I am sure most of us have preferances but parents forcing their sons or daughters not to marry a pious person of another race based upon grounds of race is contrary to Islamic teachings and is unacceptable.

Yes the child's opinion plays a big part in determining compatibility, after all he/she is the one that is going to have to live with the person, so I don't think the child's opinion should be disregarded instead it should be valued unless you want the marriage to end in divorce. But I suppose the counter argument would be that the child is foolish and young and doesn't realise what he/she is compatible with till they're at least 24 and anything before that is just lustful thinking and desires talking. I mean its only now I'm starting to realize what I want, its changed from what I thought I wanted when I was 16-22. But then I guess you have to let your kid make his/her own mistakes sometimes because if you don't they'll end up resenting you for not letting them have the life they want. :hmm:


My grandad placed the same condition that you mentioned in your last post on all his kids, and now they're all old an un-married and they hate him and blame him for ruining their lives cos they're all un-married. Even though he's changed his views now, when he was young he said they have to be same cast, same village, same race, etc

[Hamza Asadullah]

Yes the child's opinion plays a big part in determining compatibility, after all he/she is the one that is going to have to live with the person, so I don't think the child's opinion should be disregarded instead it should be valued unless you want the marriage to end in divorce. But I suppose the counter argument would be that the child is foolish and young and doesn't realise what he/she is compatible with till they're at least 24 and anything before that is just lustful thinking and desires talking. But then I guess you have to let your kid make his/her own mistakes sometimes because if you don't they'll end up resenting you for not letting them have the life they want. :hmm:

I have many close friends who were forced to marry girls within the family because they went along with what their parents wanted. They had no choice in the matter. They could not reject the rishtha and now they live in resentment and they say to me that they would never do towards their children what their parents did to them.

So find good rishtha for your sons and daughters based upon ones preferance like same race, nationality or caste, thats fine but if you, your son or daughter or anyone else happened to come across someone with piety and good character that you know will be good for your son or daughter then they should not be rejected due to race, nationality or caste but they should be at least given a chance and then one can make isthikhara and ask Allah to do what is best.

Unfortunately a lot of the times selfishness comes into it where parents are only concerned with what other people may think and they are only concerned with their "honour", and not with what is best for their son or daughter.

[Salahudeen]

I have many close friends who were forced to marry girls within the family because they went along with what their parents wanted. They had no choice in the matter. They could not reject the rishtha and now they live in resentment and they say to me that they would never do towards their children what their parents did to them.

So find good rishtha for your sons and daughters based upon ones preferance like same race, nationality or caste, thats fine but if you, your son or daughter or anyone else happened to come across someone with piety and good character that you know will be good for your son or daughter then they should not be rejected due to race, nationality or caste but they should be at least given a chance and then one can make isthikhara and ask Allah to do what is best.

Unfortunately a lot of the times selfishness comes into it where parents are only concerned with what other people may think and they are only concerned with their "honour", and not with what is best for their son or daughter.

Yeah you see that's the dangerous thing about trying to control your kids life, they will end up resenting you, you have to let them make their own decisions sometimes and then just be there to comfort them if things go wrong, my aunties and uncles are the same, they don't talk to their father because of it. :hmm: I don't know how to reconcile them because they hate him and blame him for everything that went wrong in their life.

[joyous fairy]

You have points that are not irrational. But I do not think you are adding to genetic diversity by marrying someone else from other ethnicity. I think you have provided no evidence for that.

Pakis thinking they are the only Muslims? That is surprising to me. Growing up in a Pakistani society, I never got that impression. Pakistanis, in general, are more aware of the diversity of Muslims from all over the world, and more accepting of it, at least more than Gulf Arabs. Recently, the Greek Muslim Hamza Tzortzis went to Pakistan, and Pakistanis really welcomed him with open arms.

Most importantly, when you give daughter to someone from other culture, it essentially means that your grand child will adopt most cultural values of their father. That is unacceptable to me to have grand children who are not related to my race/culture etc. It basically means that your culture will die out and grand children wont be able to carry it on. Now that is a haunting thought for any grand father to have his legacy wiped out just cuz his daughter liked someone else outside the ethnicity!!

I dont need to give evidence for something that is this clear. Im talking about mixed race kids. If a Pakistani marries say an African, for example, the kids they have will be half and half, or dont you agree with that?

Secondly, I didnt say ALL Pakistanis think that, I was speaking in terms of some young kids. If they are only interacting with people from their own background then they are more likely to be confused about the diversity of the Muslims and the rest of the world.

And I dont think your culture would die out if you let your daughter marry from another culture. Lol. And anyway, wouldnt it be better if they adopted a culture that was based on Islam and the country they are living in? I think so.

[CosmicPathos]

If the person is pious and has good character then it is wrong for anyone to reject them.

This is so wrong.

Umar bin Khattab (ra) asked for the hand of Umm Kalthoom, youngest daughter of Abu Bakr (ra), in marriage, and she refused for a trivial reason that "his lifestyle is harsh." So she refused a pious and a good character sahaabi and who is also an ameer ul mumineen, and it was acceptable and no one called her a kaafir. So what makes you say that one cannot refuse a pious suitor whom the father/wali is not comfortable with, especially when the issue is as big as racial and cultural differences which some ppl understandably so do not want to deal with??

[CosmicPathos]

Parents do tend to pass on that mentality to their kids.

My parents did not pass on that mentality. But they did make sure they pass on the mentality that if I have to choose between my parents or my wife, i choose my parents. If situations come in my life where I cannot fulfill rights of my wife, I have the option to divorce her. Fair enough, God wont punish me for not fulfilling her rights since she wont be my wife anymore and I would have divorced her. I cannot "divorce" my parents.

[Hamza Asadullah]

This is so wrong.

Umar bin Khattab (ra) asked for the hand of Umm Kalthoom, youngest daughter of Abu Bakr (ra), in marriage, and she refused for a trivial reason that "his lifestyle is harsh." So she refused a pious and a good character sahaabi and who is also an ameer ul mumineen, and it was acceptable and no one called her a kaafir. So what makes you say that one cannot refuse a pious suitor whom the father/wali is not comfortable with, especially when the issue is as big as racial and cultural differences which some ppl understandably so do not want to deal with??

You quoting a hadith out of context is also wrong. It is a well known for that although Umar Bin Khattab (ra) was among the best of men he was also quite a strong and harsh in character. So you could say his character was just not for everyone.

But our discussion is in the context of marrying a pious who is of piety and good character but the only thing standing in his way is that he is of different caste, nationality or race. To this the Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wasallam) said:

The Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wasallam) said:

“When someone with whose religion and character you are satisfied asks your daughter in marriage, accede to his request. If you do not do so, there will be temptation on Earth and extensive corruption.“

[Tirmidhi, Nasa'i & Ibn Majah]



Bilals marriage had been arranged by the Holy Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wasallam) himself. It is a well known fact that he was previously a black slave and at the time there was a lot of jahilliyya (ignorance) and many people looked down upon him because of this. But caste, nationality or race did not prevent the Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wasallam) from recommending him for marriage.

It is stated that the sons of Abul Bukair one day came to the Holy Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wasallam) and said, "0 Messenger of Allah, find a match for our sister. "The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wasallam) observe, "Why do you not marry her to Bilal Hearing this they went back, but after a few days they came again and repeated the same request, and the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) gave the same reply. Thus after a few days they came third time with the same request. This time also the Prophet (S.A.W.) giving the same reply added, "Bilal is an inmate of Paradise; you should marry your sister to him." So, having heard the Prophets advice, they married their sister to Bilal.

So as I have mentioned before it is fine to have a preferance so look for a man of piety and good character from your own caste, region and race but if you, your son, daughter or anyone else were to show you a person of piety and good character then there is no reason to reject such a proposal just on grounds of race, nationality or region. Then it would be that you are only concerned about what others may think and you would clearly only be thinking about your own selfish reasons not what is best for your son or daughter. If you wanted what was best for your son or daughter then you would marry them to a person of piety and good character regardless of the caste, nationality or race.

[~Zaria~]

Assalamu-alaikum,

I think it is really sad to completely 'write off' other races and ethnicities, simply because of differences in color/ culture.....or whatever reason one may have.

This is generalising/stereotyping groups of people - without giving a particular individual the chance to prove his own worth, his own character and taqwa.

Do we forget that we are ALL equal in the sight of our Creator?
What differentiates us is our piety.....not our wealth, our cuture, our life-styles, or our family backgrounds?


Allah (SWT) says "O Mankind! We have created you from a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorable of you in the sight of Allah is he who has most Taqwa among of you. Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware." (Qur'an 49:13)

"There is no superiority of an Arab over a non-Arab, nor of a non-Arab over an Arab or white person over a black person or a black person over white person except through piety. Verily the most honored of you is the most righteous."
(Musnad Ahmad)

Why do we find it so difficult to accept others, from other racial groups openly into our families?
Are we not all brothers and sisters in Islam?

Too often, we have been 'indoctrinated' by our elders and members in our communites that we should ONLY seek marriage to those from our own ethnicities.
And as mentioned - yes, it is ok to have personal preferences......but this should not limit our vision to such an extent, that we will not even CONSIDER someone who falls outside of our race.

Each person is unique.
And while his upbringing, culture and family is indeed influential in ones life.......it is a mans/ womens taqwa and imaan that should matter.

If a pious man, of another ethnicity asks for your daughter in marriage - and she is agreeable......why do we not leave the rest to Allah (subhanawata'ala)?
Why dont we turn to him in Istikaraah salaah and seek His guidance?

Of course, this does not guarantee a successful marriage (Allah alone knows best).......but we need to ask ourselves - what more do we want?

Salaam

[Reflections]

Of course, this does not guarantee a successful marriage (Allah alone knows best).......but we need to ask ourselves - what more do we want?

Well there we go..we never do know that it will be a successful marriage but you leave it in Allah (swt)'s hands and always pray for a prosperous marriage. And I do strongly feel that it isn't correct to turn down a proposal based on the race/nationality etc of a person disregarding that they have their deen, akhlaaq and so forth. My personal preference was someone who was from the same culture as me because I would find it easier as he would have the same views as me, wouldn't have culture clashes or the both of us wouldn't have the difficulty to adapt to each others lifestyle because of different cultural upbringing, however having said that it doesn't mean any one else who is from a different culture isn't as worthy because at the end of the day it boils down to the taqwa/emaan/akhlaaq of a person. We're muslims before labeling ourselves to anything else.

[CosmicPathos]

Then it would be that you are only concerned about what others may think and you would clearly only be thinking about your own selfish reasons not what is best for your son or daughter. If you wanted what was best for your son or daughter then you would marry them to a person of piety and good character regardless of the caste, nationality or race.

This is blatant generalization. It does not logically follow that if you want best for your children then you will do whatever the child wishes as opposed to what your wishes are. Wrong.

Either way, we are rejecting people for one reason or another. If I follow your reasoning, it seems you agree that it is okay to reject a suitor if you do not mentally go along with them, right? How is that different from my reason that it is okay to reject a suitor if someone deos not culturally go along with them? At what point does "incompatibility" in life styles, as you so vividly pointed out the harshness of Umar (ra), take precedence over other concerns such as culture/language/expectations etc!

Please, Muhammad pbuh is not alive today. He had some knowledge of ilm al gaib given to him by Allah and he hence asked some ppl to give theri daughter to Bilal. Plus it is Prophet, his request is different from a request that a suitor makes 1500 years later. If I had a daughter, I'd give it to whoever if Prophet asked me too. Prophet pbuh is not alive today so dont use faulty examples.

[CosmicPathos]

Do we forget that we are ALL equal in the sight of our Creator?

no one said that "writing off" others means that we think they are inferior.

[~Zaria~]

^Indeed.....this was not necessarily implied.

Perhaps, it would be appropriate to also quote the next sentence as well:

Do we forget that we are ALL equal in the sight of our Creator?

--> What differentiates us is our piety.....not our wealth, our cuture, our life-styles, or our family backgrounds?

Salaam

[Rhubarb Tart]

no one said that "writing off" others means that we think they are inferior.

Salam
*roll eyes*


btw it is HARAM for fathers to reject someone because of their race and nationality! The more you write about this issue, the more sound like a pakistani rather than a MUSLIM!

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ge-issues.html


And my view on parents and future parents to be rejection of potential because of their race is disgraceful and not islamic! btw don’t come at me with "preference", the only person that is allowed to have preference is the daughter, the father has to make sure the brother is good person! The father CANNOT reject a potential because of his race, nationality, low income and even disability! And read the link all articles are from Islam q and A.

Btw are you going to spend a lot of time with your (hopefully unlikely) daughter’s husband to the point you will be there during their intimacy? There is thing called attraction, if your daughter want to marry a muslim man of different race who she happens to be attracted to, it is none of your business. Your business is to find what kind of a man is via the potential family, colleagues and friends!

http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...brother-2.html

^^^ I already expressed disgust at "parents" that reject purely on race!

Your view from Islamic perspective holds no water! It is HARAM, HARAM to for PARENTS ( in particular fathers) to reject potential because he is black, white or of a different nationality, Period!.


Good day!

[CosmicPathos]

There is thing called attraction, if your daughter want to marry a muslim man of different race who she happens to be attracted to, it is none of your business

Then she might as well marry George Clooney.

The more you write about this issue, the more sound like a pakistani rather than a MUSLIM!

huh.

[~Zaria~]

Then she might as well marry George Clooney?

Your argument is now bordering onto absurdity.

Clearly, we have been speaking of a potential MUSLIM spouse who is PIOUS, yet of a different ethnicity.

How does George Clooney feature in this? ^o)

[Muezzin]

The point people are trying to make is that if both the man and the woman are pious, of good moral character, attracted to each other and actually want to get married etc, it's not for any third party to prevent them from marrying.

[Hamza Asadullah]

The Prophet ( Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) is clear in his advice to us regarding what we should look for in a suitor and that is that we should look for a person who has piety and good character. The Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi Wassallam) was the best anti racism campaigners in those days when racism and jahiliyyah (ignorance) was rampant. He did his best to try and eradicate this narrow minded backward thinking and he went a very long way in doing so but it is clear we still have a long way to go to continue in the amazing works and achievements of our beloved Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam).

So let us not fall into jahilliyya or become so narrow minded. As Muslims we do not let cultural biases and restrictions rule our lives rather our deen takes prescidence over everything else. Culture is fine as long as it is not contray to Shariah.

So let us live our lives in accordance to the Quran and Sunnah and not be bound by our cultures to such an extent that we think and do that which is contray to shariah.

[CosmicPathos]

The Prophet ( Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) is clear in his advice to us regarding what we should look for in a suitor and that is that we should look for a person who has piety and good character. The Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi Wassallam) was the best anti racism campaigners in those days when racism and jahiliyyah (ignorance) was rampant. He did his best to try and eradicate this narrow minded backward thinking and he went a very long way in doing so but it is clear we still have a long way to go to continue in the amazing works and achievements of our beloved Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam).

I agree with all of that.
Your logical fallacy is that you are saying my preferences are racist when I am not discriminating against any race.

[Hamza Asadullah]

I agree with all of that.
Your logical fallacy is that you are saying my preferences are racist when I am not discriminating against any race.

I never said you are racist brother for I just made general statements. Please do not become defensive. The point I am trying to make to you is that when you write off somebody that is a good suitor for your son or daughter and you are happy in that he or she has piety and you are happy with their character then what reason do you have to reject them apart from race or nationality?

The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) is clear in the hadith when he says do not reject a person if you are happy with their character and piety. Meaning that we should not reject them for other reasons like "our honour" what others may think or just because he is not from the same caste, region, nationality or race.

[joyous fairy]

My parents did not pass on that mentality. But they did make sure they pass on the mentality that if I have to choose between my parents or my wife, i choose my parents. If situations come in my life where I cannot fulfill rights of my wife, I have the option to divorce her. Fair enough, God wont punish me for not fulfilling her rights since she wont be my wife anymore and I would have divorced her. I cannot "divorce" my parents.

Thats good then Alhamdulillah.

[joyous fairy]

I agree with all of that.
Your logical fallacy is that you are saying my preferences are racist when I am not discriminating against any race.

Sorry brother, but when you say you will not allow your daughter to marry from outside your own culture, that is discrimination, no?

And at the end of the day its your daughter marrying them, not you. So why do you get to make the final choice?

I still have not heard a reasonable explanation for you not allowing your daughter to marry outside of your race/culture.

I, myself would want to marry a Pakistani, because I am one too, but I would not rule out someone who isnt. I just feel I'd get on better with them and with being from a similar background, probably understand them more.

Can I ask, which country are you living in?

[CosmicPathos]

Sorry brother, but when you say you will not allow your daughter to marry from outside your own culture, that is discrimination, no?

How is that discrimination? Was that guy born with Divine right to marry MY daughter? I choose to decide whom I'd let my daughter be married off too (of course after she agrees).

Plus this is irrational argument. You agree that I should not let me daughter be married off to a drunkard gangster right? So by your logic, I am discriminating against drunkard gangsters by not giving them a chance to marry my daughter.

[CosmicPathos]

And at the end of the day its your daughter marrying them, not you. So why do you get to make the final choice?

because I'd be the Wali. My job is to make sure that my daughter spends her future life with ease and not in misery, and that she marries the right person who I approve. A wali's approval depends on many factors, such as thinking well of his daughter, thinking of possible grand children, thinking of extending relationship with in-laws, establishing ties etc etc, and not just mere love at first sight sort of immature thing.

If my daughter marries lets say a Scottish Muslim, my grand children will be Muslim and Scottish. What if I want to keep my lineage Muslim and Rajput?

Can I ask, which country are you living in?

I live in Canada.

[CosmicPathos]

It is a well known for that although Umar Bin Khattab (ra) was among the best of men he was also quite a strong and harsh in character. So you could say his character was just not for everyone.

I was rethinking about this bro, and I have to say that something is really wrong with the person who prefers their own wishes/likes over being blessed to marry someone who as guaranteed Jannah. Umm Kalthoom bint Abu Bakr was a daughter of sahaabi and I am sure she had very strong emaan, but rejecting a person (umar bin khattab!) who is guaranteed Jannah because of her personal "desires about easy life" is probably not an ideal way of a Muslim. Am I right? Is not a Muslim's goal to maximize his/her chance of getting into Jannah and not following our desires? And what better way of increasing chances by being married to a Jannati?

[Tyrion]

How is that discrimination?

How is it not?


dis·crim·i·na·tion   [dih-skrim-uh-ney-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
an act or instance of discriminating.
2.
treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discrimination

[CosmicPathos]

How is it not?


dis·crim·i·na·tion   [dih-skrim-uh-ney-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
an act or instance of discriminating.
2.
treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discrimination

I guess then we all Muslims discriminate against kaafirs, drunkards, bisexuals, cuz after all we wont let our daughters be married to them.

[Tyrion]

I guess then we all Muslims discriminate against kaafirs, drunkards, homosexuals, cuz after all we wont let our daughters be married to them.

Sure, but that kind of discrimination is sanctioned by our religion, and is typically not out of arrogance or hatred. It seems that you're suggesting discrimination based on racial preference, which is dangerously close to racism and also opposed to Islamic teachings.

[CosmicPathos]

It seems that you're suggesting discrimination based on racial preference, which is dangerously close to racism and also opposed to Islamic teachings.

rest assured it is not out of hatred (I dont need to justify it to you, only God is judge), but out of preference, and expanding ties within ethnicity. If you want to look at it as racism, I dont give a flying rat.
My religion also has not sanctioned on me many things which I still do and to my knowledge, it is not haram to do them.

[Hamza Asadullah]

I was rethinking about this bro, and I have to say that something is really wrong with the person who prefers their own wishes/likes over being blessed to marry someone who as guaranteed Jannah. Umm Kalthoom bint Abu Bakr was a daughter of sahaabi and I am sure she had very strong emaan, but rejecting a person (umar bin khattab!) who is guaranteed Jannah because of her personal "desires about easy life" is probably not an ideal way of a Muslim. Am I right? Is not a Muslim's goal to maximize his/her chance of getting into Jannah and not following our desires? And what better way of increasing chances by being married to a Jannati?

Brother i had not previously looked into the marriage of Umm Kulthoom and Umar before in any detail and after having done some research on the topic it is clear that most Sunni even shia sources are in agreement that the marriage between the daughter of Ali (Ra) Umme Kulthoom and Umar (ra) definately did take place. So i would like to see where you got your sources from regarding this.

[CosmicPathos]

Brother i had not previously looked into the marriage of Umm Kulthoom and Umar before in any detail and after having done some research on the topic it is clear that most Sunni even shia sources are in agreement that the marriage between the daughter of Ali (Ra) Umme Kulthoom and Umar (ra) definately did take place. So i would like to see where you got your sources from regarding this.

Bro, jazakAllah.
Yes, there are two umm kalthoom. Umm Kalthoom Bint Abu Bakr, and Umm Kalthoom Bint Ali. Umar (ra) married Ali's (ra) daughter after Abu Bakr's (ra) daughter rejected the offer.

[joyous fairy]

How is that discrimination? Was that guy born with Divine right to marry MY daughter? I choose to decide whom I'd let my daughter be married off too (of course after she agrees).

Plus this is irrational argument. You agree that I should not let me daughter be married off to a drunkard gangster right? So by your logic, I am discriminating against drunkard gangsters by not giving them a chance to marry my daughter.

You dont seem to understand what discrimination is. You are not giving guys from other races a chance just because they are from a different background.

Of course, you would not marry your daughter off to a drunkard because he is a drunkard! He was not born that way and he can easily try and change that. You cant change your race/culture just like that.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Can we please not become confrontational or get into arguments. State your opinions in a good manner as we should as Muslims. I would rather not throw this thread into the recycled bin.

[CosmicPathos]

You are not giving guys from other races a chance just because they are from a different background.

Why should I, under the pretense of giving chance, ruin my daughter's life, when I know that interracial marriages bring lots of problems with them more often than not? There is some evidence for it, read on.

I do not want to discourage any one of you from having an interracial marriage if that is what you want, and may Allah swt bless your marriage, but please do not impose your views on me.

Here is a good reading:

Abstract: The literature on interracial families has examined social stigmas attached to interracial relationships but
has not thoroughly documented whether crossing racial boundaries increases the risk of divorce. Using the 2002
National Survey of Family Growth (Cycle VI), we compare the likelihood of divorce for interracial couples to that
of same-race couples. Comparisons across marriage cohorts reveal that, overall, interracial couples have higher rates
of divorce, particularly for those marrying during the late-1980s. We also find race and gender variation. Compared
to White/White couples, White female/Black male, and White female/Asian male marriages were more prone to
divorce; meanwhile, those involving non-White females and White males and Hispanics and non-Hispanic persons
had similar or lower risks of divorce.

Bratter and King, Family Relations, 57 (April 2008), 160–171. Blackwell Publishing.
Copyright 2008 by the National Council on Family Relations.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...08.00491.x/pdf

[joyous fairy]

because I'd be the Wali. My job is to make sure that my daughter spends her future life with ease and not in misery, and that she marries the right person who I approve. A wali's approval depends on many factors, such as thinking well of his daughter, thinking of possible grand children, thinking of extending relationship with in-laws, establishing ties etc etc, and not just mere love at first sight sort of immature thing.

If my daughter marries lets say a Scottish Muslim, my grand children will be Muslim and Scottish. What if I want to keep my lineage Muslim and Rajput?



I live in Canada.

Yes you have the right, but you should consider what your daughter wants more than what you want. And yes, you want your kids to be happy which is exactly why you need to think about what they want. If you say to them 'sorry you cant marry a non-Paki' thats not necessarily looking out for their happiness because you dont know the guys yet.

And what would be wrong with being a Scottish Muslim? Your lineage will change no matter what anyway. Pakistan has not always been Pakistan, for instance.

So youre Canadian, your kids will be Canadian then if you dont go somewhere else. They wont be fully Pakistani. im a British Muslim, I see myself as that but my ethnic origin is Pakistani. Your daughter will still see her ethnic origin as Pakistani so you shouldnt worry about that.

[joyous fairy]

Why should I, under the pretense of giving chance, ruin my daughter's life, when I know that interracial marriages bring lots of problems with them more often than not? There is some evidence for it, read on.

I do not want to discourage any one of you from having an interracial marriage if that is what you want, and may Allah swt bless your marriage, but please do not impose your views on me.

Here is a good reading:

Abstract: The literature on interracial families has examined social stigmas attached to interracial relationships but
has not thoroughly documented whether crossing racial boundaries increases the risk of divorce. Using the 2002
National Survey of Family Growth (Cycle VI), we compare the likelihood of divorce for interracial couples to that
of same-race couples. Comparisons across marriage cohorts reveal that, overall, interracial couples have higher rates
of divorce, particularly for those marrying during the late-1980s. We also find race and gender variation. Compared
to White/White couples, White female/Black male, and White female/Asian male marriages were more prone to
divorce; meanwhile, those involving non-White females and White males and Hispanics and non-Hispanic persons
had similar or lower risks of divorce.

Bratter and King, Family Relations, 57 (April 2008), 160–171. Blackwell Publishing.
Copyright 2008 by the National Council on Family Relations.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...08.00491.x/pdf

ok, JazakAllah Khair, I will read it inshaAllah.

Sorry if I sound harsh or anything, I dont mean to. I just dont understand where you are coming from because you have not met the future guys who may want to marry your future daughter inshaAllah lol.

[CosmicPathos]

Yes you have the right, but you should consider what your daughter wants more than what you want. And yes, you want your kids to be happy which is exactly why you need to think about what they want. If you say to them 'sorry you cant marry a non-Paki' thats not necessarily looking out for their happiness because you dont know the guys yet.

And what would be wrong with being a Scottish Muslim? Your lineage will change no matter what anyway. Pakistan has not always been Pakistan, for instance.

So youre Canadian, your kids will be Canadian then if you dont go somewhere else. They wont be fully Pakistani. im a British Muslim, I see myself as that but my ethnic origin is Pakistani. Your daughter will still see her ethnic origin as Pakistani so you shouldnt worry about that.

Yes, you are right, Pakistan has not always been Pakistan.

But please note that I did not say "Pakistani." I said Rajput. It is a genetic group of warriors from Kshatrya caste of warriors going back thousands of years. If my daughter's husband is Rajput and his nationality happens to be Indian or even Canadian, I have no problems with it as long as first he is a practicing Muslim, and then if he is rajput.

As for daughter, maybe its a phase and later on she will want something else? Our likes and dislikes continue to change. I know that once I wanted to marry this Spanish girl, and my parents denied, but today I think it was the best decision that my parents took.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Bro, jazakAllah.
Yes, there are two umm kalthoom. Umm Kalthoom Bint Abu Bakr, and Umm Kalthoom Bint Ali. Umar (ra) married Ali's (ra) daughter after Abu Bakr's (ra) daughter rejected the offer.

Brother do you have any referances and sources for this claim because as far as i can see it is a shia claim.

[Sunshine824]

As Salaamu Alaikum;

I wanted to share some first hand experience as a biracial Muslimah.

My parents (black father, white mother) married in 1970 and never divorced.
I never felt "confused" about my race. I felt I had the best of both worlds - while most people only got to be one thing or the other, I got to be both. :p
I look it at how if you offer a child the choice of vanilla ice cream, chocolate ice cream, or both - what would they want? Most would want both! I got both, while others only got one. I almost felt bad for people who were only 1 race because it didn't seem like as much fun. lol

As I entered high school and adulthood, I still did not feel confused about myself. But some others did seem to be confused. Being biracial seems to upset the people who aren't more than it upsets the ones who actually are. Probably because they don't know what box to put you in or which prejudice they can use against you.....

My appearance probably doesn't help either because I just have an "exotic" appearance and I wear hijab. I've been mistaken for Latina, Arab, Moroccan, Malaysian, etc. People will speak to me in their language assuming I speak it too. When I tell them I don't understand they just speak more slowly. :giggling:

Anyway, as for marriage, we are advised by Prophet Muhammad :saws1: that there are 4 criteria for marriage: wealth, lineage, beauty, and deen. But that we should choose the one for their piety if we want to be successful.

On the one hand, I don't see a problem with having a preference and wanting what's best for your children. Especially your daughter as there is a level of protection and responsibility there that isn't there for sons. I have a daughter and I would worry about marrying her to someone that is from a different culture because I might not know how they would treat her or how their family would treat her. If this brother was very pious and had very good character then I wouldn't worry as much no matter what race or culture he is from insha Allah.

On the other hand, the parents' preference should not hinder the child in getting married if they found someone who fit the most important criteria: pious & good character- just because they are not of the same race or culture. I think the line is when we as parents forbid or insist on something rather than prefer it. I would forbid my daughter to marry someone who is not Muslim, who drinks or smokes, who has girlfriends, etc. However, I would not forbid her from marrying someone of a different culture insha Allah. I'm familiar with some cultures other than my own and might prefer her to marry someone from certain cultures that I'm familiar with but wouldn't insist on it.

[CosmicPathos]

Brother do you have any referances and sources for this claim because as far as i can see it is a shia claim.

Bro I heard it in this lecture. If you go to 36:00 time mark, you'll see the names of wives of Umar (ra).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0BadunCRls

[CosmicPathos]

Anyway, as for marriage, we are advised by Prophet Muhammad that there are 4 criteria for marriage: wealth, lineage, beauty, and deen. But that we should choose the one for their piety if we want to be successful.

That is quite right, but you are ignoring other ahadeeth of Prophet pbuh. We have to take all ahadith in context. In other hadeeth Prophet pbuh has suggested to marry young virgin women, so that takes old widowed women out of priority. Religion is important criteria but the other hadith tells you that age and virginity are also a criteria. In the same way lineage is also a criteria, and it comes after religion.

I am very glad to hear that you had a pleasant biracial experience and no identity crises, but I think as a male I would have identity crises if I could not know what my ancestry is and why am I "mixed" and what clan I am from etc.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Bro I heard it in this lecture. If you go to 36:00 time mark, you'll see the names of wives of Umar (ra).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0BadunCRls

Going by what the Sheikh mentions regarding Umar (Ra) proposal of Abu Bakrs daughter Umm Kulthum then clearly the rejection was due to Umm Kulthum foreseeing incompatibility. This is an acceptable reason for a person to reject a proposal because a marriage will seldom work out if there is not compatibility there. Umar (Ra) was a strong, overbearing personality with a lifestyle to match. Clearly not for everyone. The Sahaba were also normal humans. They also had high divorce rates. But the way they saw it was if it didnt work then they just parted, there wasnt such a big upset like there is in many of todays divorces.

So compatibility is very important when it comes to deciding whether or not to marry someone. That is why Islam allows a couple to get to know one another for a bit in the presence of the girls mahram or at least him being nearby.

[CosmicPathos]

Going by what the Sheikh mentions regarding Umar (Ra) proposal of Abu Bakrs daughter Umm Kulthum then clearly the rejection was due to Umm Kulthum foreseeing incompatibility. This is an acceptable reason for a person to reject a proposal because a marriage will seldom work out if there is not compatibility there. Umar (Ra) was a strong, overbearing personality with a lifestyle to match. Clearly not for everyone. The Sahaba were also normal humans. They also had high divorce rates. But the way they saw it was if it didnt work then they just parted, there wasnt such a big upset like there is in many of todays divorces.

So compatibility is very important when it comes to deciding whether or not to marry someone. That is why Islam allows a couple to get to know one another for a bit in the presence of the girls mahram or at least him being nearby.

jazakAllah for admitting that compatibility is important.

Now, who is supposed to be more compatible? Two people who belong to same clan, speak same language, same dialect, same culture, same jokes, same worldviews, or two people from two different corners of world, with two different languages, different worldviews ? The people in "love" might not see the problems that lie in future, but parents as 3rd rational party with more mature mindset can forsee it.

[Hamza Asadullah]

jazakAllah for admitting that compatibility is important.

Now, who is supposed to be more compatible? Two people who belong to same clan, speak same language, same dialect, same culture, same jokes, same worldviews, or two people from two different corners of world, with two different languages, different worldviews ? The people in "love" might not see the problems that lie in future, but parents as 3rd rational party with more mature mindset can forsee it.

But who said those two people would be from different corners of the world? They would both be born and bred in the same country, speak the same language, dialect etc. Compatibility does not mean that both have to be from the same caste, region, nationality or race. Compatibility comes from how well both get on with each other and whether they have similar goals, aspirations, perspectives on life and how they want to live life and raise children etc.

Compatibility is about how the two couple get on not how the parents percieve the two to get on. If the parents are happy with the persons character and piety and if the son or daughter feel that the person is compatible for them then caste, region or race does not matter at all.

Then why did Umm Kulthum (Ra) reject Umar (Ra)? They were from the same region, spoke the same language etc etc. But is is simply due to incompatibility of personalities and lifestyle. If a person is happy with the suitors personality, character and lifestyle and feels that they are compatible then caste, region, nationality or race plays no part in it at all.

[Sunshine824]

That is quite right, but you are ignoring other ahadeeth of Prophet pbuh. We have to take all ahadith in context. In other hadeeth Prophet pbuh has suggested to marry young virgin women, so that takes old widowed women out of priority. Religion is important criteria but the other hadith tells you that age and virginity are also a criteria. In the same way lineage is also a criteria, and it comes after religion.

I am very glad to hear that you had a pleasant biracial experience and no identity crises, but I think as a male I would have identity crises if I could not know what my ancestry is and why am I "mixed" and what clan I am from etc.

As Salaamu Alaikum;

Brother I don't think you understood my post as I clearly quoted that there were other criteria to marrying other than just religion.

Again, my argument is that the secondary criteria should not overrule the most important criteria of piety and good character.

Finally, I have also known at least 10 other people who were biracial/multiracial with half of them being male. None of them had an identity crisis or didn't know where they came from. Everyone knew who their parents were and what their heredity was. It's not like people who are biracial don't know their parents or their heritage. They just have a more diverse heritage. The same way if you know that your mother came from 1 village and your father came from a different village. You aren't confused about who you are or where you came from. Likewise, those who have parents with different heritage are not confused either.

[CosmicPathos]

But who said those two people would be from different corners of the world? They would both be born and bred in the same country, speak the same language, dialect etc. Compatibility does not mean that both have to be from the same caste, region, nationality or race. Compatibility comes from how well both get on with each other and whether they have similar goals, aspirations, perspectives on life and how they want to live life and raise children etc.

I still find incompatibility between myself and the Muslimahs who were born in Canada, even though I am quite "Westernized" too, and have been here for more than 10 years and childhood schooling was also in English langauge. I guess to each his own.

[CosmicPathos]

As Salaamu Alaikum;

Brother I don't think you understood my post as I clearly quoted that there were other criteria to marrying other than just religion.

Again, my argument is that the secondary criteria should not overrule the most important criteria of piety and good character.

Finally, I have also known at least 10 other people who were biracial/multiracial with half of them being male. None of them had an identity crisis or didn't know where they came from. Everyone knew who their parents were and what their heredity was. It's not like people who are biracial don't know their parents or their heritage. They just have a more diverse heritage. The same way if you know that your mother came from 1 village and your father came from a different village. You aren't confused about who you are or where you came from. Likewise, those who have parents with different heritage are not confused either.

Thank you for clarifying.

For the bold part, I am not sure anymore in 21st century. From my observation of humans over a long period of time, including myself, every thing seems to be driven by evolutionary desires and goals. You would think that wives do not like the attention other females give to her husband, but evolutionary biology says that a wife likes it when her husband gets attention from other women because it gives her the confidence that her husband, despite so many choices, chose this specific woman as his wife. I was very disheartened to learn this. These emotions are common across females of all races, whether they admit or not. I used to believe that pious Muslimahs wont have these sort of things, but I was proven wrong again and again. Human behavior sometimes is very much like animals. And it saddens me that only very few humans surpass the animalistic nature that we all have.

[Sunshine824]

Thank you for clarifying.

For the bold part, I am not sure anymore in 21st century. From my observation of humans over a long period of time, including myself, every thing seems to be driven by evolutionary desires and goals. You would think that wives do not like the attention other females give to her husband, but evolutionary biology says that a wife likes it when her husband gets attention from other women because it gives her the confidence that her husband, despite so many choices, chose this specific woman as his wife. I was very disheartened to learn this. These emotions are common across females of all races, whether they admit or not. I used to believe that pious Muslimahs wont have these sort of things, but I was proven wrong again and again. Human behavior sometimes is very much like animals. And it saddens me that only very few humans surpass the animalistic nature that we all have.

As Salaamu Alaikum;

The characteristics that you describe are all the more reason to seek out the one with the best character and who is the most pious. If many Muslims and Muslimahs have some lower inclinations then you need these criteria first to be sure that they will behave in a way that is better insha Allah. When their Iman is strong then their fear and love for Allah SWT will correct their behaviour. When their Iman is lower(it happens) then their good character will still keep their behaviour correct insha Allah.

[CosmicPathos]

As Salaamu Alaikum;

The characteristics that you describe are all the more reason to seek out the one with the best character and who is the most pious. If many Muslims and Muslimahs have some lower inclinations then you need these criteria first to be sure that they will behave in a way that is better insha Allah. When their Iman is strong then their fear and love for Allah SWT will correct their behaviour. When their Iman is lower(it happens) then their good character will still keep their behaviour correct insha Allah.

Is that even possible?

Thanks for your suggestions though.

[~Zaria~]

^ That is indeed possible.

It is only imaan, and a higher sense of accountability that curtails our nafs and 'animalistic' desires.

Personally, where it not for the love of Allah (subhanawata'ala) and His nabi (sallalahu alaihi wasalam), as well as fear for the consequences - I would be living my life out in a very different manner.

Most women enjoy the attention and admiration of men as they walk past.......but Islam enjoins hijab and modesty.
Many people enjoy going out to parties and clubs, etc.......but Islam forbids this sort of enviroment.
Many men and women, if given the opportunity would not mind having multiple partners without the strings of marriage attached.......but Islam has shown us a better way.

If NOT for love, as well as fear of Allah (subhanawata ala).....what else would make us take the 'higher' road in life?
This is the beauty of this deen.
It forces us to suppress our 'lower beings' - in the desire for a higher purpose: the obedience to our Creator, not wanting to displease our Rabb......and ultimately the pleasure of His meeting and the rewards of paradise.

And the higher ones imaan and taqwa......no doubt, the easier it becomes to fulfill the commands of Allah.
No doubt.

And hence, the importance of seeking this very, very important attribute in ones potential spouse......over and above everything else.


Salaam

[Maryan0]

I don't understand why an issue specific to a certain culture is being projected on all Muslims.
Salam

[joyous fairy]

Yes, you are right, Pakistan has not always been Pakistan.

But please note that I did not say "Pakistani." I said Rajput. It is a genetic group of warriors from Kshatrya caste of warriors going back thousands of years. If my daughter's husband is Rajput and his nationality happens to be Indian or even Canadian, I have no problems with it as long as first he is a practicing Muslim, and then if he is rajput.

As for daughter, maybe its a phase and later on she will want something else? Our likes and dislikes continue to change. I know that once I wanted to marry this Spanish girl, and my parents denied, but today I think it was the best decision that my parents took.

Ok.

Maybe when you have a daughter you might change your mind too :p

[CosmicPathos]

Ok.

Maybe when you have a daughter you might change your mind too :p

No, my current thinking is not based on what I like and dislike. It is based on rationality and logic. There is huge difference in doing things because I like doing them, and doing things because it is the right thing to do them.

[~Zaria~]

No, my current thinking is not based on what I like and dislike. It is based on rationality and logic. There is huge difference in doing things because I like doing them, and doing things because it is the right thing to do them.

Hmm, and I here I thought, deciding the 'right thing to do' - was based on the commands of Allah (subhanawata ála) and our prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasalam).....

Unfortunately, it appears that not all of us are not working from this same basis.

Sad.

[~Raindrop~]

:sl:

This thread has gone wildly off-topic.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. If others don't agree with you, it really isn't the end of the world. To each his (or her) own. Forcing your opinion on others isn't the solution.

Agree to disagree and move on, please.