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Burninglight
01-21-2012, 04:09 AM
I don't understand why so many Christians are converting to Islam. What can a Muslim tell me to convince me that it is the way I should go? Am I missing something here? Sorry, but I just don't get it! What do you have that I don't already?:hmm:
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Ramadhan
01-22-2012, 02:42 AM
Why don't you ask those christians who reverted to Islam why they think Islam is the truth?
There are many ex christians in this forum and some of them told their stores here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...ours-here.html

Happy reading!
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Burninglight
01-22-2012, 03:42 AM
I looked at many testimonies and I felt like crying out of frustration. Most of the converts were Catholics. I was born and raised Catholic, but I could never identify with Catholism. I am just a simple Christian that believes in one Almighty God with no partners. Most conversions or what Muslims call reversions I listened to were based on what these ex Catholics felt. I believe that feelings make a wonderful servant but a very poor leader. I have also read the testimonies of Muslims that revert to Christianity or convert. These testimonies are different. They are based on divine intervention and not on what one felt right and good with.
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Ramadhan
01-22-2012, 04:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
What do you have that I don't already?
One thing thing that makes Islam is vast superior than christianity.

Jesus (pbuh) whom you worship is God is only a prophet and messenger of God in Islam.


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Ramadhan
01-22-2012, 04:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Most conversions or what Muslims call reversions I listened to were based on what these ex Catholics felt. I believe that feelings make a wonderful servant but a very poor leader.
Obviously you did not read a whole many of these reversion stories.
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CuriousIncident
01-22-2012, 05:59 AM
When the time is right for me, hopefully I will revert to Islam :)
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Marina-Aisha
01-22-2012, 08:43 AM
^^ me too, u obiviously dont see the truth maybe u never will..because allah has block her heart has made u deaf and blind...u wil proberly never see how beautiful islam is.
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Insaanah
01-22-2012, 10:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
What do you have that I don't already?
Welcome to the forum, Burninglight, and thank you for your question.

The answer, as to what we have, is the true message of God. The original, true, and unadulterated message of God. 100% God's word. No versions. No editions. No human authors. The message of God to all mankind, in it's final, unadulterated and pristine form.

If you take Muslims from every part of the globe, who have memorised the Qur'an by heart, they will all recite word for word exactly the same thing; from China to Morocco, Russia to Zanzibar, Australia to the US, they'd all recite exactly the same.

Muslims believe in all the prophets God sent to guide and warn people, and do not reject any of them, from Adam, to the last and final prophet, Muhammad, peace be upon them all. They were the purest and noblest of humanity and were not divine in any way. God sent all the prophets with the same core message and not different messages.

We're following a book that tells us what has always been expected from humans since the beginning of time; what God told His prophets to teach people since the creation of the first human. That core message never changed. The essence of Islam is what always was, and has always been, the true and natural religion; the way of all the Prophets, the original message, the only message. The message was: to submit wholeheartedly to the will of God and to worship Him and Him alone, and to obey the prophet. Thus, Islam is not a new faith, but is the same Ultimate Truth that God revealed to all prophets, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them all). We accept and believe in all of the Prophets of God, even the ones we haven't heard of and don't know about, without rejecting or discriminating against any of them. Since the time of prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) that message is available unchanged and unadulterated. He is the last, not first, prophet of Islam; a messenger to all mankind.

God is given His due Majesty, and is thought of as He Himself taught us, not according to the word of humans or how they think He might be, nor according to the convention of councils.

  • There is only One God. He alone should be worshipped.
  • He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, daughters, siblings, parents, cousins, nor relatives of any sort.
  • He is eternal and does not die.
  • There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, the Creator of the Universe.
  • He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, no intermediaries, and no denying of God's existence either.
  • There are no sharers or associates whatsoever in His Divinity.
  • Simply, He is One, in every sense.
We are each responsible for and accountable for our own deeds, good or bad, and for the choices we make in life. Nobody else is responsible for them, nor carries the burden of them. No innocent person is made to suffer or die for the sins of others. Newborn babies are sinless, and are not tainted by the burden of sins they did not commit. There is no concept of original sin, nor of a broken relationship with God. God is the God of all. Prayer is directly to God; forgiveness is from God.

Forgiveness does not require a payment or a sacrifice, but it requires for the offender to acknowledge the wrong he has done, to feel regret for having committed the deed, to ask sincerely for forgiveness, and to intend not to repeat the offense again. (MustafaMc)

I find Islam to be the only religion that recognises Allah's power to forgive with just His will. All other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf. In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/can not: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting Allah's will. (Woodrow)

After reverting to Islam, many former Christians feel that they love, respect and follow Jesus (peace be upon him) more than when they were Christians.

The ultimate truth of Islam stands on unshakeable ground, and in harmony with reason. It's universal message has remained unchanged for over 1400 years, not only a religion, but a way of life, for all people, all times, and all places. It is a complete code of conduct for every aspect of life, from the most intimate, to the most public. It not only exhorts one to be good, but provides complete guidance to practically live that, aiming to prevent problems in society; solutions for problems are also given. The modern world only stands to benefit from Islam.

One of the numerous beautiful things about Islam, is that an increase in knowledge and education, and scientific discoveries, provide further evidence that it is the truth. That is the sign of a true religion, in harmony wth reason, logic, and science. Indeed, Islam is the religion for the thinking person - so many times we are told to contemplate, and look at the signs that are there for people of understanding.

It's a great feeling knowing you're following in the footsteps of the Prophets, and not following man-made teachings, and that the teachings are logical and make sense. There are no mental acrobatics involved - the concept of God is simple, clear, and easy for all to understand, as truth should be. If the message you're following is not God's word, then everything goes downhill from there, because you do not know if you're following the truth.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I don't understand why so many Christians are converting to Islam.
I hope that gave even just a tiny glimpse of why.

Peace.
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Riana17
01-22-2012, 12:28 PM
Hello dear Brother,

May Allah the CREATOR of the Worlds guide you to the right path. Ameeeen

I am a convert, I can say I did not choose Islam, Allah guided me to the right path and that is the most amazing (beyond words) gift I have ever had in my life, and I had never wished anything for myself before. But now I have one, inshallah (Godwilling) I will die as a real Muslim, Amen

Human and this Life can never be perfect, but with Islam being perfect religion, life is much easier, clear and most of all, it is peaceful.
In Islam we do everything for the sake of Allah, we are kind, we do charity, humble ourselves, etc not to show off but only to please one True God who created everything seen and unseen.

I have listed here before why I was not happy with my religion, but then again I repeat, I did not choose Islam, Allah choose me to be in the right path. Alhamdollellah (thanks to Allah)

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-religion.html

also maybe you will be interested to find out why people are happy with ISLAM
please have a look:

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...-muslim-2.html
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aadil77
01-22-2012, 12:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I don't understand why so many Christians are converting to Islam. What can a Muslim tell me to convince me that it is the way I should go? Am I missing something here? Sorry, but I just don't get it! What do you have that I don't already?:hmm:
How about starting with worshipping God and not His prophet, Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism and never have Jews worshipped their prophets and given them divine attributes. Never have prophets asked to be worshipped.

So start with the basics - monotheism - belief in the One Almighty God who has no partners nor needs any. Then accept that God has sent thousands of prophets and messengers to mankind, all bearing the same message of monotheism. Then accept that God has given divine revelation to His prophets to guide mankind - some of that is present in the bible, but cannot be trusted due to people modifying the scriptures. The last and final revelation, which abrogates all previous revelation is in the form of the Qur'an - revealed to prophet Muhammad. The Qur'an is the direct speak of God, unaltered and preserved since 1400 years ago.
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~Zaria~
01-22-2012, 02:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I don't understand why so many Christians are converting to Islam. What can a Muslim tell me to convince me that it is the way I should go? Am I missing something here? Sorry, but I just don't get it! What do you have that I don't already?:hmm:
Peace be unto you, and so may the mercy of Allah and His blessings,


I really cannot add very much more to all that has already been said, MashaAllah., except to say:

The reason why so many people (Christians, as well as those who have been following other faiths) are turning towards Islam, is because,

For those of us who are living this religion - we can honestly say, that it is our only saving grace from this fleeting life.

When you allow your heart to feed upon all the teachings of Allah, his final prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him), as well as all the other prophets (peace be upon them all) that came before him - without being influenced by the stereotypical view of Islam that the media has fed us.......you will find yourself in awe of your Creator.

Your life has more purpose - there is a goal that you are now working towards - not the temporary 'success' of this world, but rather the eternal bliss of the hereafter.

Everything suddenly makes sense - the pain and injustice of this life, the trials and tribulations that we face everyday, the joys and sorrows.....all have a meaning.

This worldly existence loses its significance - the flashy cars, the glitz and glamour of fame, wealth, fancy clothes....and every other material possesion - no longer interests you.
You see it for what it is - nothing more than temporary pleasure, a diversion, a temptation - that is drawing you away from the remembrance of your Creator.

-> There is no other religion that places the commands of our Creator firmly above that of societies desires.

-> There is no other religion that honours and protects women as does Islam.

-> There is no other religion that attributes ALL praise and glory to the One that created us from nothing.

-> There is no other religion that is not just a belief system - but a WAY OF LIFE.

-> There is no other religion that prohibits all that which is harmful strictly, and directly - for OUR benefit.......alcohol, pork, adultery, fornication, to name just a few.

-> There is no other religion that is as COMPLETE and as FLAWLESS as Islam.

SUBMISSION TO THE WILL OF GOD.



And Alhamdulillah (All praise is due to Allah) - we can see this, in the very fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.......despite mans attempts to defame it.

The truth will always prevail.
Alhamdulillah.

Salaam
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Burninglight
01-22-2012, 07:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
One thing thing that makes Islam is vast superior than christianity.

Jesus (pbuh) whom you worship is God is only a prophet and messenger of God in Islam.
I believe that God actually enters into our discourse causing you to write as you did. Usually, the first thing you hear a person say when explaning why some is true is what is true. You said, "Jesus whom (I) worship is God" but only a prophet to Islam. What you said is true in every way.

You believe He is just a messenger, but we believe He is the message. This makes it hard for me to see how this makes Islam superior to any religion much less Christianity a religion that I believe has the purest form of monotheism in the world. We understand that Jesus was subordinate to God in position, office and function, but we know explicitly from the Scriptures that came before Muhammmad's time that He is equal in nature and character to God. So if you are calling who the Bible considers to be the exact representation of all that God is just a prophet, that is a significant demotion to say the least. Wouldn't you agree?
From what I can tell in compartive religions, I wouldn't want to be caught dead in those shoes :phew
TC
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Insaanah
01-22-2012, 07:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
You believe He is just a messenger, but we believe He is the message. This makes it hard for me to see how this makes Islam superior to any religion
This means that before him, there was no message, which is obviously completely untrue.

Whereas in Islam, we follow the same message that always was, right from the beginning.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Christianity a religion that I believe has the purest form of monotheism in the world.
You believe 3 = 1. We believe 1 = 1. It is clear which is not only the purest monotheism, but which actually is monotheism.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
we know explicitly from the Scriptures that came before Muhammmad's time that He is equal in nature and character to God.
Your scriptures are the word of man, interspersed with and adulterating the remnants of the word of God. And anybody could write anything they want, as they have indeed done.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
So if you are calling who the Bible considers to be the exact representation of all that God is just a prophet, that is a significant demotion to say the least. Wouldn't you agree?
Not at all. It is a demotion of human's words and making God's word superior.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
From what I can tell in compartive religions, I wouldn't want to be caught dead in those shoes
Open your eyes.

Peace.
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Burninglight
01-22-2012, 07:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Obviously you did not read a whole many of these reversion stories.
No, I haven't, but I read some of them and many before this from you tube and other sources. Most of the reasoning was based on it felt right and it was the only logical thing to do or it was my choice based of sound reason and because the Quran is prefect and better than the Bible.
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YusufNoor
01-22-2012, 07:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I believe that God actually enters into our discourse causing you to write as you did. Usually, the first thing you hear a person say when explaning why some is true is what is true. You said, "Jesus whom (I) worship is God" but only a prophet to Islam. What you said is true in every way.

You believe He is just a messenger, but we believe He is the message. This makes it hard for me to see how this makes Islam superior to any religion much less Christianity a religion that I believe has the purest form of monotheism in the world. We understand that Jesus was subordinate to God in position, office and function, but we know explicitly from the Scriptures that came before Muhammmad's time that He is equal in nature and character to God. So if you are calling who the Bible considers to be the exact representation of all that God is just a prophet, that is a significant demotion to say the least. Wouldn't you agree?
From what I can tell in compartive religions, I wouldn't want to be caught dead in those shoes :phew
TC
:sl:

how can you imagine that you believe believe in monotheism when you tell us that Jesus, pbuh, is, " subordinate to God in position, office and function"? if you have 1 god in superior position and another in an inferior position, you are clearly NOT a monotheist, but a polytheist. THAT, is logic.

so you could say, "i wouldn't want to be caught dead in YOUR shoes!"

:wa:
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Perseveranze
01-22-2012, 07:29 PM
Peace,

I'd recommend reading this - http://searching-islam.co.nr/islam
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Burninglight
01-22-2012, 07:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
This means that before him, there was no message, which is obviously completely untrue.
JN1 Iin the beginning was the word the word was with God and the Word was God. The Scriptures teach us that Jesus is the Word of God who always existed but not in human form. Jesus is the word that God spoke all things into existence as the Bible states. All things were made by Him for Him and throught Him (Jesus). We do not ascribe partners unto God that is an Islamic phrase that has nothing to do with Christianity. If someone were to say God has 3 daughters; now, that would be ascribing partners. We don't understand why God calls Himself one and yet makes His Holiness and Word distinct, but God can do that and we will not limit God saying He can't do such a thing or accuse god of ascribing partners because he chose to make these distinctions in His person.
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
Your scriptures are not all God's word, but the word of man. And anybody could write anything they want, as they have done. I believe the word of God, not the word of men, some of whom never even met Jesus (peace be upon him).
They may not be all, but there is enough there to give us god's plan of salvation for our lives. BTW, what part is man's word & which is God's?
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
Not at all. It is a demotion of human's words and making God's word superior.
Not even Muhammad came against the written Scriptures that came before. Muhammad came against people that were wrong never the text. You are threading a very slippery slope. It is like you are saying that mans ability to corrupt God's word is stronger than God to keep His word in tact. I believe my God can and has preserved His word form before Muhammad's time and after.
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Burninglight
01-22-2012, 07:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
how can you imagine that you believe believe in monotheism when you tell us that Jesus, pbuh, is, " subordinate to God in position, office and function"? if you have 1 god in superior position and another in an inferior position, you are clearly NOT a monotheist, but a polytheist. THAT, is logic.

so you could say, "i wouldn't want to be caught dead in YOUR shoes!"
It has nothing to do with my imagination. It has to do with what God said. Jesus is God's word made flesh. That is what God tells us in the Bible. I believe this. God said He is only one with no other gods before Him. I believe this. Jesus is not another god in an inferior position. I never even used the word inferior. Is your son inferior to you? Jesus calls God his father and God calls Jesus His son. Who I am I to call God and Jesus a liar? Who are you?
^o)
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Burninglight
01-22-2012, 07:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
You believe 3 = 1. We believe 1 = 1. It is clear which is not only the purest monotheism, but which actually is monotheism.
Please lose the math problem. God cannot be figured out using math, reason and human logic. His ways and thoughts are as high as heaven is from the earth from our ways and thoughts as written in Scripture
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Burninglight
01-22-2012, 08:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
I'd recommend reading this


I read this, but the Bible clashes with the Quran and Islam. The Bible states that if anyone preaches a different message than Jesus Christ crucified even if it is an angel let him be eternally condemned. Wasn't it an angel that proclaimed a different message than the Bible to Muhammad? Why were the orginial Qurans burned by Uthman. What was changed? Why was the Quran written when it means recitation. How does one get write out of say? Was Uthman a prophet who could recompile the Quran after burning them. Would have Muhammad accepted what He did? Why does the Bible say that no prophets come from Ishmael and that ishmael was no prophhet? Isn't Muhammad a descendant of Ishmael? I just have one question after another whenever I consider Islam. These question come up every time I study Islam and pre-Islam history even gets me more confused. Right now I have the Bible and I ain't trading the bird in the hand for the two in the bush especially when I got so many unanswered questions get keep coming.
:exhausted
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Insaanah
01-22-2012, 08:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
The Scriptures teach us that Jesus is the Word of God who always existed but not in human form.
So if he was the message, did Adam and Noah and every single other prophet preach that Jesus is the son of God, but he does not yet exist, and did they say to people that Jesus is the message we have come with, but he does not yet exist in human form, so accept this not yet human as your personal saviour?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
We do not ascribe partners unto God that is an Islamic phrase that has nothing to do with Christianity.
You just said in a previous post that Jesus was subordinate to God, yet is equal in nature. So you're admitting it yourself, whether you see it or not. You are making a subordinate being, equal to God. And God can never be subordinate to anyone, thus Jesus is not God, but you are making him God, and that is ascribing partners to God.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
BTW, what part is man's word & which is God's?
The onus is on you to tell me that, as you claim to follow the Bible. As for me, if something agrees with the Qur'an then it could be the word of God, and if it is diametrically opposed, then it is obviously not. The Qur'an, the final testament, is the standard, the criterion.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Not even Muhammad came against the written Scriptures that came before. Muhammad came against people that were wrong never the text.
We believe in the scriptures that God originally revealed, and in the books that God revealed to Jesus and to Moses and to David and any others (peace be upon them all). Not any words of a humans that might be added to these.

Sahih International

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. (2:79)

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
It is like you are saying that mans ability to corrupt God's word is stronger than God to keep His word in tact. I believe my God can and has preserved His word form before Muhammad's time and after.
One of the reasons God sent messengers and prophets was when the message or scripture given to previous prophets had been corrupted by people. There was no need for God to send a chain of prophets otherwise, as none of humanity would ever have been misguided. He has promised to preserve the Qur'an and has issued challenges in the Qur'an for people to come up with something like it. Whereas the Bible itself is witness to the fact that it has been changed:

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jeremiah 8:8)

Using the same logic as that in your question, why do you believe that God couldn't forgive mankind without making part of himself come to the earth and having to have all bodily functions such as helplessness and defaecation, and letting himself be killed, and crying to himself as to why he had forsaken himself? It is Christians who appear to be denigrating the power of God, not Muslims.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Please lose the math problem. God cannot be figured out using math, reason and human logic. His ways and thoughts are as high as heaven is from the earth from our ways and thoughts as written in Scripture
Please don't be embarrassed about admitting that your salvation depends on a core belief that you don't understand, can't explain, doesn't make sense, and isn't mentioned explicitly anywhere in the Bible. It is not the nature of God to give convoluted beliefs to people, that don't make sense "For God is not the author of confusion.." ( 1 Corinthians 14:33). So who exactly is the author of this confusion?

That’s why we call you to a religion in which the concept is very clear. There’s One God, He’s indivisible, He doesn’t have children, nor relatives, nor grandparents, and He does not die. Compare this with there’s one God who had 3 different godheads, but at the same time, they’re still 1, one of them dies for three days, & instead of being 2 (or ⅔), they’re still 1, even though they’re physically separated. Which of these two is easier to understand?
If we explained this to a child now, which one is easier for them?

Why would Allah present you with a concept that doesn’t make logical sense to you, doesn’t agree with humans naturally, you don’t understand it, you can’t explain it, and then tell you that to be saved you have to believe in this strange concept? Please think about it.

That’s why we call you to a religion in which you don’t have to separate between your logical self and your spiritual self, where the concepts make sense. We call you to a religion in which there is One God, none other is worthy of worship except Him, He sent prophets & messengers (inluding Jesus peace be upon him) to warn humanity, and this is the message that has always been.
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Aprender
01-22-2012, 08:41 PM
You need to understand the history of the Biblical texts. That's what I did. I grew up in a Christian household, in my later high school and early college years I went away from Christianity and then came back to it. My goal was to study as much about Christianity as I could so I could go out and let people know about the joy of Christianity and being saved.

So I read the different translations of the Bible. Some of them had different verses out of place. Some had verses that were missing. And so I went to different Bible scholars to help explain some of the inconsistencies to me. Remember this story?

John 8:1-7
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Do you know that all of that is a fabrication? It is a story that was made up and later added to the Bible to support the new message that was being brought to the people. No Muslim told me this. Christian scholars did. Christian scholars also told me that we don't have a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of the original text.


Now I don't know about you but that worried me a lot. But I initially ignored it and went on believing in this message that we'd all be saved if we just had faith and believed that Jesus, pbuh, would save us. Then I learned that the Trinity was a concept that was added to the Bible about two centuries after Jesus, pbuh, was here. I was fine with that because it was a concept that made absolutely no sense to me and made no sense to the scholars even who taught it. I was fine with letting that go. Then the more I learned about Christianity, I saw that there were more than 30,000 different types of Christianity. If they're all teaching from the same book, then why so many? Which one is right Christianity? Furthermore, there are versions of the Bible which call the One God, ALLAH. Many of them are out of print in the West for obvious reasons.

Another example from the Bible was this character Lilith. It is a story in Jewish mythology. If you look back in history you would find in old versions of the Bible her name shows up. It is said in these traditions that she was the first woman created but she was cast out of the Garden for not wanting to submit to Adam, pbuh, so she became a demon and was the cause of sorrow, misery, infertility and wet dreams for people. Look in your version of the Bible today and you won't find any mention of her anymore because her name was translated out of the Bible. This is what it used to say in
Isaiah 34:14

And there shall the beasts of the desert meet with the jackals, and the wild goat shall cry to his fellow; the Lilith also shall settle there, and find for herself a place of rest.

And this is what it says now:
14 Desert creatures will meet with hyenas,
and wild goats will bleat to each other;
there the night creatures will also lie down
and find for themselves places of rest.

Then another translation:

14 And wild animals shall meet with hyenas;
the wild goat shall cry to his fellow;
indeed, there the night bird settles
and finds for herself a resting place.

And another translation:
14The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

So she goes from being a woman, to a night creature, to a bird and in some translations an owl. What is she then? Furthermore, we know that this story isn't true so why is it even referenced in the Bible to begin with?

This just goes to show you how unreliable translations are. And we also know that Muhammad (pbuh) appears in the Bible but was translated OUT of current Biblical texts for obvious reasons.

Further going into history, you would find that if any of the current Christians said what they say about Jesus, pbuh, today, you would be killed for blasphemy! Even James, his own brother, did not look at Jesus, pbuh, as divine but rather a prophet and messenger of the One God. So tell me, would you rather believe the word of Paul, a man who never even met Jesus, over his own brother who was there with him when he was on the earth?

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

And if we look toward the context of this verse, he is looking up the heavens and praying! What you need to do is get a red letter Bible. Look at the message that Jesus taught and then look at the message that Paul taught. They're not the same. Essentially Paul is saying in the Bible that while Jesus, pbuh, was here, he couldn't do what he was supposed to to get the word out so Paul had to be inspired to do it and correct what Jesus taught to the people!

It matters not if you think that you don't follow the teachings of Paul but at the end of the day you follow what Paul taught. That is what is being taught. Of all of the monotheistic religions, Christianity is the only one that reveres other people and saints in some forms of it instead of praying to ONE God alone with no intermediaries.

We can sit here and go back and forth and talking about what we "think" is the concept of God and what he is supposed to be and what his message means. Sure, you can do that in the Bible since many Christians believe that throughout the years many different people were "inspired" and wrote those thoughts down in addition to fabrications and other false concepts that weren't originally apart of the Bible or taught by ANY of the prophets, peace be upon them all. Only in the Quran is it laid out exactly what it always HAS been and always will be. Trying to reinterpret it to fit what you want to hear is not going to change the fact that you are to worship ONE God, and do good works. Yes, it is all about faith and I believe that the life of Jesus, pbuh, was an amazing way to show the people on a serious level that there is one God based on all of the amazing miracles that God allowed him to do in his lifetime. But to mix it up with all of that falsehood really is a disservice to yourself. The first commandment is the first commandment for a reason.

My advice is to go to the source text in the original languages, READ, if you can try and learn the Greek and Hebrew languages so you can see for yourself some of the translation errors and see what was changed. Jesus, pbuh, did not speak English but more closely one of the Semitic languages known as Aramaic. English didn't come around until about 900 years ago and you get into a lot of trouble trying to translate the word of God from a translation that's not even in the original language to begin with.
Reply

Aprender
01-22-2012, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
The Bible states that if anyone preaches a different message than Jesus Christ crucified even if it is an angel let him be eternally condemned.
Aside from prostitution, public relations is one of the world's oldest professions. So when Paul was getting the Christianity that he was teaching in the Bible, he told his followers not to listen to anything else that anyone else is saying because his is the truth and if you listen to others then you're done for forever. Mind you, there were other forms of Christianity going around after Jesus was gone. So, if what Paul was taught is really the truth then anything else that another one brought couldn't possibly measure up to it. What is to be feared from learning and examining all of the other ones out there? If anything having the truth and seeing the superiority of it to the other Christianities out there would boost up Paul's credibility.

In Islam we are encouraged to learn and read about everything else out there instead of following blindly.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Why was the Quran written when it means recitation.
So people the people can read it and reflect on it. Not everyone is a Hafiz. Back then it was memorized by many people but to preserve the message it was also written. The same thing is recitied as it is written. Translations of the Quran are not the Quran as the Quran is in Arabic.

I will let someone more knowledgeable answer the other questions for you as I am a new Muslim and I still have a lot to learn. May Allah have mercy on us and guide us all to the truth. Ameeen.
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Burninglight
01-22-2012, 09:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by marina28
^^ me too, u obiviously dont see the truth maybe u never will..because allah has block her heart has made u deaf and blind...u wil proberly never see how beautiful islam is.
I can see beauty in your signature, but if you feel that way. why do you say you're of an "other" religion in your profile???
^o)
Reply

Insaanah
01-22-2012, 10:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
The Bible states that if anyone preaches a different message than Jesus Christ crucified even if it is an angel let him be eternally condemned.
That's not Jesus (peace be upon him) saying that, that's Paul, who never even met Jesus (peace be upon him). It's not Jesus's nor God's word, and was written after Jesus's departure from earth. Jesus (peace be upon him) had no knowledge of that. See sister Aprenders posts above, too.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Wasn't it an angel that proclaimed a different message than the Bible to Muhammad?
Angel Gabriel (peace be upon him) conveyed from God the same message that has always been (see my first post in this thread). It is current day Christianity that has turned Jesus and turned God into something never heard of before. Islam is a continuation of the same self-evident truth that always was, and that was given to all the prophets, and the same thing they all preached:

Jesus said, and his words recorded in the Qur'an, the same as those of other prophets, translations as follows:

"Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path." (3:51)

"I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. (5:117)

[Jesus said], "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path." (19:36)

"Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. This is a straight path." (43:64)

And Allah says: They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. (Translation of Qur'an 5:72)

Indeed the learned Christian cousin of the wife of the Prophet (peace be upon him) recognised the description of Angel Gabriel (peace be upon him) as being the same angel that went to Moses (peace be upon him), and the then Christian Negus of Abyssinia recognised the message as coming from the same source as that given to Jesus (peace be upon him). There were still those then that recognised the truth.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Why was the Quran written when it means recitation.
To facilitate it's recitation for those who didn't know it by heart.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
How does one get write out of say?
Urmm, by writing down what was said!

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Was Uthman a prophet who could recompile the Quran after burning them.
He didn't recompile it.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Why does the Bible say that no prophets come from Ishmael
Humans wrote that possibly because it would be highly convenient as then an excuse could be made not to follow the next prophet that God was going to send. Except that they made one omission, which tells that a prophet was going to come, descended from Ishmael (peace be upon him):

And, actually, God tells Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) in the Bible that there will come a non-israelite prophet, specifically an ishmaelite prophet, who people have to follow:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
like unto thee,
and I will put my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (Deuteronomy.18:18).

First thing is "a prophet from among their brethren", note that it does not say "from among them" but "from among their brethren". Who are the brethren of the israelites? The ishmaelites! If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham (peace be upon them all), then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHREN of the children of the other. So God is telling you that a Prophet will come, who is a descendent of Ishmael (peace be upon him).

Next: "Like unto thee".

Some say the verses refer to Jesus (peace be upon him) but let's put that to the test and examine the likes:

Both Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) had a mother and father, Jesus (pbuh) did not.
Both Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) had a normal birth, Jesus (pbuh) did not.
Both Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) married and had children, Jesus (pbuh) did not.
Both Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) were accepted by their people in their lifetime, while Jesus (pbuh) on the whole was not accepted by the Jews he was sent to.
Both Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) died natural deaths, Jesus (pbuh) did not.
And the list goes on...

So the Prophet like unto Moses (peace be upon him) is Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Next:"And I will put my words into his mouth"

History tells us that Muhummad (pbuh) was forty years of age. He was in a cave some three miles north of the City of Mecca. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue: 'Iqra'' which means Read! or Proclaim! or Recite! Muhummed (pbuh) was terrified and in his bewilderment replied that he was not learned! The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues.

Now Muhummad (pbuh) grasps what was required of him was to repeat! to rehearse! And he repeats the words as they were put into his mouth:

"Read! In the name of your Lord and Cherisher, who created-
Created man, from a clinging substance:

Read! And thy Lord is most bountiful,-
He who taught (the use of) the pen,

Taught man that which he knew not".
(Holy Qur'an 96:1-5)

These are the first five verses which were revealed to Prophet Muhummad (peace be upon him) which now occupy the beginning of the 96th chapter of the Holy Qur'an.

"If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." (Deuteronomy 18:19)

113 chapters of the Qur'an as revealed by Allah to, and spoken by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) all begin with "In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful." God's words, spoken by the Prophet, in His name. With this formula in fact, Muslims begin every lawful act. And in the first revelation to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), mentioned above, what were the words that came immediately after Read? Have a look... "in the name of your Lord."

The Prophecy is fulfilled in Prophet Muhummad (peace be upon him) to the letter.

"If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." (Deuteronomy 18:19)

So God is telling you in the Bible to believe in prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). And I invite you to do so.

Sahih International
O Mankind, the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; it is better for you. But if you disbelieve - then indeed, to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth. And ever is Allah Knowing and Wise. (4:70)

Sahih International
Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided. (7:158)


format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
and that ishmael was no prophhet?
As I said in my first post in this thread, unlike Christians and Jews, Muslims do not reject nor discriminate nor defame the characters of any of the prophets or messengers of God, and that is one of our articles of faith. We believe in and accept them all, as the noblest of humanity that ever walked the face of the earth, sent to guide and warn mankind. And this is what God says in the Qur'an about Prophet Ishmael (peace be upon him):

And mention in the Book, Ishmael. Indeed, he was true to his promise, and he was a messenger and a prophet.
And he used to enjoin on his people prayer and almsgiving and was to his Lord, pleasing. (Translation of Qur'an 19:54-55)

Say (O Muslims): "We believe in Allah, and that which has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the descendants, and what was given to to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And to Him we have submitted (in Islam)." (Holy Qur'an 2:136).

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I just have one question after another whenever I consider Islam.
Excellent. Your mind wishes to know more and learn the truth. Fire away.
Reply

Marina-Aisha
01-22-2012, 10:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I can see beauty in your signature, but if you feel that way. why do you say you're of an "other" religion in your profile???
^o)
I am Greek orthodox Christian but I'm converting to Islam, I believe. Maybe u should actually read the quran then maybe u a might understand but proberly not like I said allah has blocked ur heart, only he knows if u will see the truth. We could talk to u until we r blue in the face and still u might not see.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
01-22-2012, 10:46 PM
Greetings of peace

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
You believe He is just a messenger, but we believe He is the message. This makes it hard for me to see how this makes Islam superior to any religion much less Christianity a religion that I believe has the purest form of monotheism in the world. We understand that Jesus was subordinate to God in position, office and function, but we know explicitly from the Scriptures that came before Muhammmad's time that He is equal in nature and character to God. So if you are calling who the Bible considers to be the exact representation of all that God is just a prophet, that is a significant demotion to say the least. Wouldn't you agree?
From what I can tell in compartive religions, I wouldn't want to be caught dead in those shoes :phew
TC
Why is that you use the term 'just' a prophet, are prophets low or high in status than those who are not prophets or messengers? What is the purpose of a prophet or messenger? Are not prophets or messengers representatives of God? What is their purpose?

If Jesus (p) is similar to God in nature and character, then that would mean God is weak, helpless? Did he (jesus (p)) not call for help while being on the cross according to your scripture?

Lets see:

Nature and character of Jesus (p) was born, needs food, needs to clean himself, has to buy food etc etc. Jesus managed to perform miracles.

Nature and character of God: God was not born, needs neither food nor water. God granted jesus the 'permission' to perform the miracles.

The list is endless, as you can see Jesus (p) has many needs while God does not.

So, indeed! God is all powerful, he needs nobody to help him rather he provides for us as he is the provider. He is the one!

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
This makes it hard for me to see how this makes Islam superior to any religion much less Christianity a religion that I believe has the purest form of monotheism in the world.
But do you not worship Jesus (p) as God? Jesus called upon his father, who was then the father?

Also just to add since many have answered your questions, as muslims we do not worship the creation we worship the creator.
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Burninglight
01-22-2012, 10:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
You need to understand the history of the Biblical texts. That's what I did. I grew up in a Christian household, in my later high school and early college years I went away from Christianity and then came back to it. My goal was to study as much about Christianity as I could so I could go out and let people know about the joy of Christianity and being saved.
What makes you think I don't understand or haven't studied about these negligilble interpolations and translational errors?

format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Further going into history, you would find that if any of the current Christians said what they say about Jesus, pbuh, today, you would be killed for blasphemy! Even James, his own brother, did not look at Jesus, pbuh, as divine but rather a prophet and messenger of the One God. So tell me, would you rather believe the word of Paul, a man who never even met Jesus, over his own brother who was there with him when he was on the earth?
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Do you see anywhere where James said He is not the son of God or divine? What Jesus says here in Jn 17 sounds like the Christian Shaadah. He says what is important is to know the only true God and Jesus. Why does he mention the only true God and Jesus Christ? Is it because there is no way to know one without the other??? Yes, it goes along with what all the apostles said. Let's look at some of what James says Ja 1 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. The birth of Jesus was the word of truth comming into the world. Ja 2 1 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. He mentions "Our Lord Jesus Christ"

format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Now I don't know about you but that worried me a lot. But I initially ignored it and went on believing in this message that we'd all be saved if we just had faith and believed that Jesus, pbuh, would save us. Then I learned that the Trinity was a concept that was added to the Bible about two centuries after Jesus, pbuh, was here.
This worried you? Why? It is true scholars say that the story of the woman caught in adultery cannot be verified, but it doesn't mean for sure it didn't happen. It is a beautiful story I hope it really is true, but even if it is not, it doesn't proof wholesale corruption of the word of God. So all we have is copies. At least we have them. Why did Uthman burn the original copies of the Quran? Those that were burned you no longer have to compare with what you have now. That would bother me. What would bother me the most is Gal 3: 1-9
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Another example from the Bible was this character Lilith. It is a story in Jewish mythology.
I am not sure what to make of this, but it was somewhat interesting, but not enough nearly to pull me from my faith in God.
The Bible as far as the good news is consistent in all translations. We can see a clear picture with no contradictions that we have all sinned and come short of God's glory; the wages of sin is eternal separation from God but the gift of God is eternal life only through Christ. As far as trinity goes, that word is not in the Bible, but the concept of it is not a fabricatrion. The father is mentioned in the Bible as being God; Jesus is mentioned as being the son of God and the holy Sprit is mentioned as being God. These is not a belief in 3 gods. Jesus is God's eternal word. Jesus is the word God used to speak all things into exsistence. This is not ascrbing partners unto God, because the Holy Spirit is not a creation and neith is God's Word.
peace :)
Reply

Abz2000
01-22-2012, 10:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Why does the Bible say that no prophets come from Ishmael and that ishmael was no prophhet? Isn't Muhammad a descendant of Ishmael?
And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. 16And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept. 17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. 21And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran:
and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.2And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them;
he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints:
from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Abu Sufyan ibn Harb, the leader of the Quraysh in Mecca, sensing that the balance was now tilted in Muhammad's favour and that the Quraish were not strong enough to stop the Muslims from conquering the city, travelled to Medina, trying to restore the treaty. During his stay, he was repulsed by Ali and by his own daughter Ramlah, who now was one of Muhammad's wives. Though Muhammad refused to reach an agreement and Abu Sufyan returned to Mecca empty handed, these efforts ultimately ensured that the conquest occurred without battle.[citation needed]
Muhammad assembled an army of approximately 10,000 men and marched towards Mecca.

Then along with his companions Muhammad visited the Kaaba.
The idols were broken and their gods were destroyed. Thereupon Muhammad recited the following verse from the Qur'an:
"Say the Truth is come and falsehood gone; Verily falsehood is ever vanishing."

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:
and he will shew you things to come.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

what are u thinking, it's the holy spirit?

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
40Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet. 41Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?

Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

what are you thinking?
it was the Christ they were talking about?
let me show you that they were awaiting the Prophet who would bring the new "fiery law", and that this was in contrast with Christ.
it was not just "a prophet", but "the specific Prophet".

And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him,
Who art thou? 20And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not.
Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

think for yourself,
the nicene creed was not written by Jesus (pbuh),
i'm sure you'll agree that the people were awaiting someone, and that Christ (pbuh) prophesied someone who will "bring them unto all truth".
a completed law.





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Burninglight
01-22-2012, 11:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
So if he was the message, did Adam and Noah and every single other prophet preach that Jesus is the son of God, but he does not yet exist, and did they say to people that Jesus is the message we have come with, but he does not yet exist in human form, so accept this not yet human as your personal saviour?
Yes, they did in the message was always there in Christ's pre-carnate form. Don't forget it was Jesus that said, "Before Abraham was I am" The Jews wanted to stone Him for saying it too.
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
You just said in a previous post that Jesus was subordinate to God, yet is equal in nature. So you're admitting it yourself, whether you see it or not. You are making a subordinate being, equal to God. And God can never be subordinate to anyone, thus Jesus is not God, but you are making him God, and that is ascribing partners to God.
In Hebrews, God calls Jesus God. he says. "But thou OH God is a throne of righteousness..." God never ever said that about any other prophet. Just because we don't understand doesn't mean it is not true. It is written "Let every man be a liar but God's word is true"
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
Please don't be embarrassed about admitting that your salvation depends on a belief that you don't understand, can't explain, and doesn't make sense, and isn't mentioned explicitly anywhere in the Bible. It is not the nature of God to give convoluted beliefs to people, that don't make sense "For God is not the author of confusion.." ( 1 Corinthians 14:33). So who exactly is the author of this confusion?
I am not embarrassed. I am glad you think you have God all firgured. I am just honest enough to admit I don't. One might not understand how electricity works or computers but that doesn't stop them from using them or believing it is true energy or just because someone doesn't understand how the digestive system works it doesn't deep them from eating
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Aprender
01-22-2012, 11:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
but not enough nearly to pull me from my faith in God
Becoming a Muslim doesn't mean you no longer have faith in God. In fact it is the quite the opposite. Do you know what the word Muslim means? Just because I stopped going to church doesn't mean I stopped believing in God for one minute. I just began to study other religions.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
As far as trinity goes, that word is not in the Bible, but the concept of it is not a fabricatrion.
You might want to double check that with a few Christian scholars as I learned otherwise. The concept of the trinity was added to the religion some 200 years after Jesus (pbuh) walked the earth and verses were later on added into the Bible to allude to that fabrication. But you can go ahead and do your own research on that one.
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Burninglight
01-22-2012, 11:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. 16And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept. 17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. 21And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran:
and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
This proves Ishmael and his descendants are blessed, but not prophets or part of the promised bloodline that came with Isaac and Jacob as promised to Abraham by God forever.
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

what are u thinking, it's the holy spirit?
What do you think? Muhammad was not a Spirit. The Spirit of truth is Holy; therefore, I can conclude He is the Holy Spirit who manifests Himself in many ways and at different times. This is a very far fetched argument based of conjecture, inference and speculation that does not have a foundation rooted in other Scriptures. Even Deut 18 18 refers to Jesus as mentioned in the Bible. It pertained to Jesus before Muhammad was born as written when the apostle told the other apostles we have found that which Moses spoke of Jesus.
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
what are you thinking?
it was the Christ they were talking about?
let me show you that they were awaiting the Prophet who would bring the new "fiery law", and that this was in contrast with Christ.
it was not just "a prophet", but "the specific Prophet".
Jesus is that specific prophet. The Bible says HE will be called Immanuel )God with us) Jesus is called wonderful counselro; Prince of Peace; Everlasting father; Mighty God; The Lion of the tribe of Judah and the list goes on and on. If it had teeth it would bite you now, but one day soon and very soon it would be teeth but a sword when Jeus comes back to set the recor straight. Do you know, I just can't wait for that
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Aprender
01-22-2012, 11:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Don't forget it was Jesus that said, "Before Abraham was I am" The Jews wanted to stone Him for saying it too.
That's the way it has been interpreted and taught. But we believe that God has a plan for everything and before Abraham was, God already knew that he would send Jesus (pbuh) to deliver the message of worshiping him without ANY partners and doing good. It was already written.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
This worried you? Why?
If someone gave you a textbook and said that if you read chapters 1-4 that you would get an A on your upcoming history exam. Then 20 minutes before the exam, you found out that you had the print copy of the textbook and none of the dates or names were correct because it hadn't made it to the editor and fact checkers yet. That and the other students in the class had other paragraphs in their book that wasn't in yours with information that you didn't study at all because it wasn't in your version of the book. You would be worried.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Do you see anywhere where James said He is not the son of God or divine?
This is not in the Bible. James said in outside writings himself that he did not believe in the divinity of his brother.

Check. Double check. And check again. Keep reading and keep searching and keep on asking questions.
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Aprender
01-22-2012, 11:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
If it had teeth it would bite you now, but one day soon and very soon it would be teeth but a sword when Jeus comes back to set the recor straight. Do you know, I just can't wait for that
Be careful what you wish for, my dear brother.
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Burninglight
01-23-2012, 12:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Riana17
I am a convert, I can say I did not choose Islam, Allah guided me to the right path and that is the most amazing (beyond words) gift I have ever had in my life, and I had never wished anything for myself before. But now I have one, inshallah (Godwilling) I will die as a real Muslim, Amen
How did Allah guide you?
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Burninglight
01-23-2012, 12:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Be careful what you wish for, my dear brother.
Why? I not not wish for it I am praying for it. There are son many false religions and cults and infornmation and truth is so hard to find. I am tired of Satan's tricks. If someone can convince me that Chrisitanity is a lie, I would end up being an atheist, but it is impossible that God doesn't exists. The heavens declare His glory. Jesus said He is the Truth and the life. He didn't say I show you the truth or the way. I have to believe that in Him I am complete and pleasing in God's sight. Jesus said, "You will die in your sins if you don't believe I am He" This doesn't sound like the council of Nicea, Constantine or Jews or any body making up stories to get us to believe in Jesus. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and they follow me; They won't listen to the voice of another"
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Burninglight
01-23-2012, 12:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
That's the way it has been interpreted and taught. But we believe that God has a plan for everything and before Abraham was, God already knew that he would send Jesus (pbuh) to deliver the message of worshiping him without ANY partners and doing good. It was already written.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
If someone gave you a textbook and said that if you read chapters 1-4 that you would get an A on your upcoming history exam. Then 20 minutes before the exam, you found out that you had the print copy of the textbook and none of the dates or names were correct because it hadn't made it to the editor and fact checkers yet. That and the other students in the class had other paragraphs in their book that wasn't in yours with information that you didn't study at all because it wasn't in your version of the book. You would be worried.
Yes, I would be concerned it this happened, but that cannot be proved regarding the Bible. You take by faith that Jesus didn't say He is the son of God just as much as I take it by faith He did. We both can't be right.


format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
This is not in the Bible. James said in outside writings himself that he did not believe in the divinity of his brother.

Check. Double check. And check again. Keep reading and keep searching and keep on asking questions
Where does James say he doesn't believe in the divinty of Jesus?
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Burninglight
01-23-2012, 12:53 AM
Christians claim to be monotheistic. Why should anyone tell us we are not? We don't associate partner with God
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YusufNoor
01-23-2012, 01:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
It has nothing to do with my imagination. It has to do with what God said.

you mean, what you imagine god said.


Jesus is God's word made flesh. That is what God tells us in the Bible.

actually, it is what the unknown, anonymous author of John said. there is nothing to link the author of John with ANYTHING Jesus may or may not have said.

I believe this. God said He is only one with no other gods before Him. I believe this. Jesus is not another god in an inferior position. I never even used the word inferior.

you said subordinate:

sub·or·di·nate/səˈbôrdn-it/
Adjective:
Lower in rank or position: "his subordinate officers".
lower = lessor

Is your son inferior to you?

neither of my sons are subordinate to me, nor do any of us claim to be a god. i don't see the connection.

Jesus calls God his father and God calls Jesus His son. Who I am I to call God and Jesus a liar?

you have no authentic contemporaneous writings from the life of Jesus to claim what Jesus said.


Who are you?^o)

i am Sam
Christians claim to be monotheistic.

just because they claim so, doesn't make it true.

Why should anyone tell us we are not?

because you claim that your god is three.

We don't associate partner with God
you DO claim associate [and subordinate] partnership with your god.

If someone were to say God has 3 daughters; now, that would be ascribing partners.
so...daughters would be ascribing partners, but not sons...

is this some new kind of sacred geometry?
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Burninglight
01-23-2012, 01:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Becoming a Muslim doesn't mean you no longer have faith in God. In fact it is the quite the opposite. Do you know what the word Muslim means? Just because I stopped going to church doesn't mean I stopped believing in God for one minute. I just began to study other religions.
I know that. I meant in believing in the God of the Bible in both the OT & NT
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
You might want to double check that with a few Christian scholars as I learned otherwise. The concept of the trinity was added to the religion some 200 years after Jesus (pbuh) walked the earth and verses were later on added into the Bible to allude to that fabrication. But you can go ahead and do your own research on that one.
All I need is the Bible to come up with the fahter being God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus being God's Word which of course would have to be divine for God cannot be greater than His word. For it is written, He exalts His word above all His name. The ord was subordinate to God when the word became flesh.(Jesus) There was never a prophet closer to God than God's word! I am accountable for what I know about this
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Burninglight
01-23-2012, 01:29 AM
Isn't there an editing feature on this forum?
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Ramadhan
01-23-2012, 02:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Christians claim to be monotheistic. Why should anyone tell us we are not? We don't associate partner with God
Tiger Woods claim he is faithful. Why should anyone tell him he is not? Tiger Woods does not sleep with other women that is not his wife.
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Burninglight
01-23-2012, 02:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Tiger Woods claim he is faithful. Why should anyone tell him he is not? Tiger Woods does not sleep with other women that is not his wife.
Let me put differently. I believe God is one with no partners. This is my testimony and it is God's testimony in the Bible that bears witness with my spirit that this is true. Do you deny this with your illustration of Tiger Woods?

I don't see Jesus as God's partner; I see Him as God's word made flesh. I see Him as the message. If my writing to you and communication is my partner than God has a partner. To us Christians, Jesus is God's word not His partner. I am not Catholic, so I don't believe in statue worship. Constantine had his effect on Catholicism not on true Biblical Christianity; that is not to say there aren't some Catholics that are saved and know the Lord.
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Ramadhan
01-23-2012, 02:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Let me put differently. I believe God is one with no partners. This is my testimony and it is God's testimony in the Bible that bears witness with my spirit that this is true
so who are jesus (pbuh) and the holy spirit?
Are they god or not?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I don't see Jesus as God's partner; I see Him as God's word made flesh. I see Him as the message.
Do you pray to Jesus (pbuh)?
Do you ask blessings from Jesus (pbuh)?
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Burninglight
01-23-2012, 02:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
you mean, what you imagine god said.
No, it is what the Bible says.

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Jesus is God's word made flesh. That is what God tells us in the Bible.

actually, it is what the unknown, anonymous author of John said. there is nothing to link the author of John with ANYTHING Jesus may or may not have said.
There is nothing to link the Quran to the Bible. The Scriptures and prophets mmust confirm anything new or that comes after right? Otherwise anyone can claim visions from God like Joseph Smith's heavenly vistations that started the Book of Mormonism. I must draw a line somewhere right?

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
I believe this. God said He is only one with no other gods before Him. I believe this. Jesus is not another god in an inferior position. I never even used the word inferior.

you said subordinate:


sub·or·di·nate/səˈbôrdn-it/
Adjective:
Lower in rank or position: "his subordinate officers".

lower = lessor

Is your son inferior to you?

neither of my sons are subordinate to me, nor do any of us claim to be a god. i don't see the connection.
I did say subordinate. That doesn't mean inferior! If your son was never subordinate to you than your son must have been rebellious. Jesus submited to God. My child is subordinate to me but not inferior and no less human than I. God was greater in position, office and function but not in nature, character or essence for Jesus was and is God's WORD! He is the author of my salvation and the finisher of my faith.

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Jesus calls God his father and God calls Jesus His son. Who I am I to call God and Jesus a liar?

you have no authentic contemporaneous writings from the life of Jesus to claim what Jesus said.
Faith is the substance of the things hoped for and evidence of the things not seen. I have faith and God's grace. We are save by God's grace through our faith.

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Who are you?

i am Sam
lol, nice to talk with you Sam
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Burninglight
01-23-2012, 03:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
so who are jesus (pbuh) and the holy spirit?
Are they god or not?
I have said that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. God is Spirit as stated in the Bible. he is Holy therefore He is the Holy Sprit. To answer your question, anything that comes from God's essence is divine.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Do you pray to Jesus (pbuh)?
Do you ask blessings from Jesus (pbuh)?
I ask the only true God in Jesus' name. To be a Muslim you must confess the name of Muhammad as Allah prophet or you can't be a Muslim. We don't have to confess the name of any non deity
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Aprender
01-23-2012, 03:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
To be a Muslim you must confess the name of Muhammad as Allah prophet or you can't be a Muslim.
Again, I ask you, do you know what the word Muslim means?
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Ramadhan
01-23-2012, 03:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I have said that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. God is Spirit as stated in the Bible. he is Holy therefore He is the Holy Sprit. To answer your question, anything that comes from God's essence is divine.
So, according to you: There is God, and then there Jesus and then there is Holy spirit, and you worship all three.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I ask the only true God in Jesus' name.
Yes, my own experience observing christians also tell the same: Christians mention the name of and asks from Jesus (pbuh) a lot more often than God. Holy spirit seems to be an after thought.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
To be a Muslim you must confess the name of Muhammad as Allah prophet or you can't be a Muslim. We don't have to confess the name of any non deity
Yes, we affirm that Muhammad (saw) is Allah messenger, just as we affirm that Jesus is Allah messenger.
But we don't worship Muhammad (saw) nor we ask anything from him.

You on the other hand, worship a created being, even the created being was a special one.

By the way, if you are here for the truth, please answer my questions in the other thread. I will keep reminding you.

Thank you.
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Aprender
01-23-2012, 03:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
If someone can convince me that Chrisitanity is a lie, I would end up being an atheist, but it is impossible that God doesn't exists. The heavens declare His glory.
You would become an atheist automatically without even investigating Islam first at least? No one here is saying that Christianity in itself is a lie because the earlier forms of it, the true Christianity, was a pure monotheistic belief in ONE God with NO partners. Like I said, if you came up to a group of Christians back then and claimed to be of them from what you're saying to us right now you'd most likely be killed for blasphemy. You keep on saying that you don't worship any partners yet you say you direct your prayers to God THROUGH Jesus (pbuh). So in order to talk to God, you have to talk to someone else to speak for you on your behalf hoping that that one will bring you closer to God. Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Jesus (pbuh) did? Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Abraham (pbuh) did? Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Moses(pbuh) did? Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Mary (pbuh) did? You don't think that God is powerful enough to hear your prayers without someone else having to deliver them to Him for you? Why, He created you. He just says be and it is! So why would He need a spokesperson? He is the Almighty God!

And you're not listening to anything anyone is saying to you here. You continuously quote the Bible and say the Bible said this, the Bible said that but do you understand that the Bible that you are reading is not even the same Bible as it was 400 years ago let alone 2,000 years ago? Some Bible scholars today are even saying that HALF of the New Testament is forged. Yet instead of listening, reading, and learning, you sit here and quote a book where the original is no longer even around for comparison--a book where we know that stories were added in, taken out, names of people purposely mistranslated but yet you still continue to quote it as if it is the infallible word of God. Where books were written that say that Jesus said things when the people who wrote them never even met Jesus (pbuh). That's where the issue arises here in the book itself. We don't know where the original Injeel is and if someone has it then they'd do a great service to the world by bringing it forward.

Look, I know this is tough but when I was searching for the truth I prayed to God and God alone and Allah swt guided me to Islam. I spent nearly 4 years going back and forth through different translations of the Bible, reading, comparing and the more I learned the more I got closer to Islam and I didn't want to accept it as the truth because it meant everything that I had learned in my life wasn't quite right. It takes more than light to be guided my brother. We sit here and claim to love God but continuously disobey Him by following what is obvious falsehood. We come up with metaphors and creative interpretations to make what is wrong, right. God said not to have any other gods before him, but we somehow put one of His prophets before Him, the Almighty! In ISLAM we believe that Allah swt is closer to us than the veins in our necks. He knows exactly what we are thinking and He tells us in the Quran that when we remember Him, He remembers us. When take one step toward Him, He comes running to us.

But somehow there are these concepts that have been introduced that have some in believing arrogantly that they are "saved" just because they believe. That's another trick of Satan. When you believe that you are good enough to be in the presence of the Almighty God then you really need to check yourself. You were created for nothing more than to worship Him and the least you can do is a human being is learn how to do it in the correct way.

My advice to you is to stop for a moment. Unlearn everything that you've learned and come toward the concept of God as if you are a child and read and learn for yourself. What makes sense and what doesn't make sense? Truth easily stands out from falsehood.
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Burninglight
01-23-2012, 03:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
So, according to you: There is God, and then there Jesus and then there is Holy spirit, and you worship all three.
I don't really look at it that way I just see it that I worship the one true God. Muslims bring up the trintiy more then Christians; in fact, way more. I believe in one God period. It is not my business to know what makes God tick in his nature. Jesus doesn't say He is God but He alludes to it and I accept that he is God's son like He claims. The Scriptures say He is and yours say He's not. My question is why would I want ot believe Muhammad over Jesus?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Yes, my own experience observing christians also tell the same: Christians mention the name of and asks from Jesus (pbuh) a lot more often than God. Holy spirit seems to be an after thought.
Yea, I guess I can relate to what your saying here, but I believe there is only one God.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Yes, we affirm that Muhammad (saw) is Allah messenger, just as we affirm that Jesus is Allah messenger.
But we don't worship Muhammad (saw) nor we ask anything from him.

You on the other hand, worship a created being, even the created being was a special one.

By the way, if you are here for the truth, please answer my questions in the other thread. I will keep reminding you.

Thank you.
I know you don't ask anything from Muhammad and you don't pray to him or see him as divine. I didn't say you did. I said you must mention his name with Allah or you cannot be Muslim or in the religion of Islam.
^o) I will look on the other threads to answer your question, but I am not sure which one you're referring to.
peace
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Riana17
01-23-2012, 09:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
How did Allah guide you?
Peace be with you Brother

Excellent question, well as I could remember, I used to claim that I am a Christian but infact I do not go to church or pray or know nothing about it.

However, I always say that I wanted to go to heaven if there is heaven, I wanted to pray to God if there is TRUE GOD, I wanted to have a peaceful life and never hurt others: these were few of my intentions.

Then I started reading about Islam and I always says I am not a reader but I can read the book called Adab Islamia "manners in Islam" over and over again. I decided to go to Islamic school in 2010 & immediately feel I am a Muslim :) But oh I have to note that I also went to Islamic school on my teenage time back on 2003, but it doesnt mean Islam did not appeal to me, I would say I was not educated enough. So some keys to being a Muslim are as follows: 1. Intention to know the truth about One True God 2. Education 3. Being open minded & analyze and accept the truth

I cannot know for sure what is so special in me why I am chosen to be guided, I can only be very thankful.



By CuriousIncident

When the time is right for me, hopefully I will revert to Islam

Inshallah Brother, we are praying for you, keep asking, dont leave any question unanswered and continuet to learn about ISLAM, people revert because they finally discovered the truth,,, inshallah you will find the most peaceful and most beautiful way of life like the rest of us. Ameen
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~ Sabr ~
01-23-2012, 09:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
What do you have that I don't already?
The truth?
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~ Sabr ~
01-23-2012, 09:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by CuriousIncident
When the time is right for me, hopefully I will revert to Islam :)
Why not now? After all, no one has seen tomorrow....
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Insaanah
01-23-2012, 02:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
"Let every man be a liar but God's word is true"
So you admit that the parts of the Bible that are not the word of God, and are written by humans, are lies.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
My question is why would I want ot believe Muhammad over Jesus?
It is not a case of believing in one over the other; in Islam we believe in all the Prophets and Messengers of God, including Jesus and including Muhammad (peace be upon them all), and anybody who does not, is not a Muslim.

However, you need to look at the records of what they said, to see if they actually said what you think they said. A large part of the NT is written by humans, some of whom never even met Jesus (peace be upon him) and you yourself just said let every man be a liar. That means you have no authentic record of what Jesus (peace be upon him) said. Whereas in the Qur'an, we do, as given in post no 25, here: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1492906 and he did not claim to be God, or God's son, or divine in any way, but said the same thing that Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) said to his people before him, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one" and the same thing that Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) said to people after him, "..It has been revealed to me that Your God is One God.." (18:110), and the same thing that God Himself said: "And say, "Praise to Allah , who has not taken a son and has had no partner in [His] sovereignty and nor has He any protecting friend through dependence; and glorify Him with [great] glorification.". Jesus (peace be upon him) did not preach different to this, either regarding God, regarding God's nature, or regarding himself.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I am glad you think you have God all firgured.
Why should anyone have to figure the concept of God out themselves? Why should people be left to puzzle over the main concept of a religion? It is precisely because of the messing around the NT authors have done that councils needed to be convened to figure out and finalise what/who/how God was, approx 300 years after the birth of Christ (peace be upon him).

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I am just honest enough to admit I don't
I admire and appreciate your honesty. Many Christians, in the end, admit that they don't really understand, admit that it's just blind faith, and can only respond that the Lord works in mysterious ways.

Imagine, if a school or university had a syllabus for a subject that people had to study, and then take an exam which would either pass or fail them. But the core concept on which that subject depends, is not clearly stated anywhere, there are conflicting statements in the textbook, which don't add up or make sense, and nobody understands it. Would that be acceptable? No. Of course it wouldn't! So why do we accept this when it comes to the most important thing of all - God?

We cannot ascribe such injustice to God. We cannot ascribe to Him that He leaves people in the dark and confusion as to their main belief regarding Him, and that He doesn't state it clearly anywhere, and that it doesn't make sense. This can only be attributed to NT authors, Paul et al, not to God, Glorified and Exalted be He, nor to Jesus (peace be upon him).

The question that started this thread, was why are Christians converting to Islam? Could it possibly be, that they recognise what I have stated above? Yes, but it is only one of many reasons.

I know you wish to defend your faith, as it's what you have believed to be the truth for a long time, but what I would say, is just open your mind to what's being said here, take your time, re-read posts, explore other parts of the forum, and ask questions. You owe it to yourself.

I invite you to explore and believe in the same message of God and the same Ultimate Truth that was given to all the Prophets; Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all) - Our God and the God of all the Prophets and messengers, is One God, without any sons or sharers or associates in His Divinity whatsoever, and we believe in all the Prophets God sent, without exception, as the noblest of humanity sent to guide us, and we do not attribute God's nature to any of them.

Peace.
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Burninglight
01-23-2012, 03:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Again, I ask you, do you know what the word Muslim means?
Yes, I do. Why?
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Burninglight
01-23-2012, 03:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
So you admit that the parts of the Bible that are not the word of God, and are written by humans, are lies.
Yes, there are interpolations and translational errors, but scholars know of them. This doesn't proof wholesale corruption. The Bible was written closer to the time it records than the Quran (Way closer).
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
It is not a case of believing in one over the other; in Islam we believe in all the Prophets and Messengers of God, including Jesus and including Muhammad (peace be upon them all), and anybody who does not, is not a Muslim.
It is to me friend. Jesus called God His father and god called Jesus His son. There is no proof of this being a translation error or interpolation and Allah promised to preserve his word so he preserve the gospel the torah and the Pslams. The Bible states in Gen 21:12 that no prophet comes out of Ishmael. I believe it is God's preserved message.
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
I admire and appreciate your honesty. Many Christians, in the end, admit that they don't really understand, admit that it's just blind faith, and can only respond that the Lord works in mysterious ways.
Thanks, but there is nothing blind about faith when you're trusting in the one and only true God
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
Imagine, if a school or university had a syllabus for a subject that people had to study, and then take an exam which would either pass or fail them. But the core concept on which that subject depends, is not clearly stated anywhere, there are conflicting statements in the textbook, which don't add up or make sense, and nobody understands it. Would that be acceptable? No. Of course it wouldn't! So why do we accept this when it comes to the most important thing of all - God?
Imagine that. Satan is the author of confusion not my God
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one" and the same thing that Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) said to people after him, "..It has been revealed to me that Your God is One God.." (18:110). Jesus (peace be upon him) did not preach different to this, either regarding God, regarding God's nature, or regarding himself.
I have no problem believing this. Jesus didn't claim to be God the father but he alluded to His deity by saying he is the son of God. Why does that stumble Muslims? Have you ever heard of Al-'Uzza, al-Lat and Manah?
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
We cannot ascribe such injustice to God. We cannot ascribe to Him that He leaves people in the dark and confusion as to their main belief regarding Him, and that He doesn't state it clearly anywhere, and that it doesn't make sense. This can only be attributed to NT authors, Paul et al, not to God, Glorified and Exalted be He, nor to Jesus (peace be upon him).
Show me where Allah teaches you to understand how he had no beginning and no end. There are things about God we don't know that doesn't constitute confusion
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
The question that started this thread, was why are Christians converting to Islam? Could it possibly be, that they recognise what I have stated above? Yes, but it is only one of many reasons.
From what I can tell thus far, it is a leap of blind faith. I haven't found anything to convince me it is any different than what Joseph Smith experience. Any thing that goes against the ancient word is suspect
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
I know you wish to defend your faith, as it's what you have believed to be the truth for a long time, but what I would say, is just open your mind to what's being said here, take your time, re-read posts, explore other parts of the forum, and ask questions. You owe it to yourself.
It is written: there is a way that seems right to a man but that way leads to death
Peace :)
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Burninglight
01-23-2012, 03:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
You keep on saying that you don't worship any partners yet you say you direct your prayers to God THROUGH Jesus (pbuh). So in order to talk to God, you have to talk to someone else to speak for you on your behalf hoping that that one will bring you closer to God. Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Jesus (pbuh) did? Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Abraham (pbuh) did? Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Moses(pbuh) did? Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Mary (pbuh) did? You don't think that God is powerful enough to hear your prayers without someone else having to deliver them to Him for you? Why, He created you. He just says be and it is! So why would He need a spokesperson? He is the Almighty God!
Yes, but Jesus was God's promised Messiah. I look at it like we have all sinned and deserve to be eternally separated from God. I look at it like God is the terrible Judge and we are before Him guilty as sin. And the Devil is there acting as our prosecuting attorney saying he/she is gulity. I see Jesus as my defense attorney. Who says to the Terrible Just Judge "I purchased Him with my blood, he is clean and saved" God says, cse closed. I see it that without Jesus, I would being facing the Great and Terrible Just Judge on my own being guitly and worthy of hell without a defence. In the OT people would shed the blood of animals to atone for their sin. Study the story of Passover which represents Jesus the lamb of God who's shed blood causes the death angel that claims for hell to pass us by.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
You continuously quote the Bible and say the Bible said this, the Bible said that but do you understand that the Bible that you are reading is not even the same Bible as it was 400 years ago let alone 2,000 years ago?
What? Please show me how the Bible is as corrupted as you say. I am looking to see why I should believe Islam over Christianity. I haven’t been given proof except you saying that the Quran hasn’t had one word change. The Book of Mormon hasn’t change either does that mean it is God’s word? If you are trying to tell me that the whole Bible is totally corrupted, you are going against Islam. I will try and reason with you why I trust the Bible by using the Quran which, btw, never had a divine mandate to be written. Quran means recitation not write! Here is what the Quran says about the Bible you say is 100% corrupted:
Torah - "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87).
Psalms - "We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).
Gospel - "It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).
Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46).
The Qu'ran states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by God. I have no problem with this, but you claim that the Bible is corrupted. If that is so, then you don’t believe the Qu'ran since it states like the Bible does that the Word of God cannot be change or corrupted:
"Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
"The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," (6:115).
"For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity," (10:64).
During Muhammad’s time, he received the revelation of the Qu'ran from Allah / Gabriel. This means that at that time the Bible, which was in existence, could not have been corrupted. This is my proof to you because the Qu'ran states that God's word cannot be corrupted. The Bible says “Thy word oh God is established in the heavens forever” The question I have for you and as you promised to provide this information is "When and where was the Bible corrupted, since the Qu'ran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah which can never be altered? Are you telling me you believe man’s power to corrupt the word of Allah to the prophets that came before Muhammad is greater than Allah’s power to preserve even after Allah tells you his word cannot be corrupted. And show me where Muhammad said the Bible is corrupted.
Reply

Aprender
01-23-2012, 04:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Jesus didn't claim to be God the father but he alluded to His deity by saying he is the son of God.
So you believe in demi-gods? Astagfirullah.
The Greek demigods and goddesses, means that one parent was a god or goddess, and Zeus, the god of the heavens had many children as a result of his romantic involvement with mortals. Remember Hercules, Achilles, Helen?

Ever heard of Mithra?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Have you ever heard of Al-'Uzza, al-Lat and Manah?
Stop reading those anti-Islamic websites. Stay off of those websites because all you're doing right now is kidding yourself with false information about those so-called satanic verses.

This is what the Quran says about those false idols!

So have you considered al-Lat and al-'Uzza? (19) And Manat, the third - the other one? (20) Is the male for you and for him the female? (21) That, then, is an unjust division. (22) They are not but [mere] names you have named them - you and your forefathers - for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance.
[53:19-22]
Reply

Aprender
01-23-2012, 04:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I look at it like we have all sinned and deserve to be eternally separated from God. I look at it like God is the terrible Judge and we are before Him guilty as sin. And the Devil is there acting as our prosecuting attorney saying he/she is gulity. I see Jesus as my defense attorney. Who says to the Terrible Just Judge "I purchased Him with my blood, he is clean and saved" God says, cse closed. I see it that without Jesus, I would being facing the Great and Terrible Just Judge on my own being guitly and worthy of hell without a defence.
That's the difference right there. In Islam we believe that Allah's (swt) mercy exceeds his wrath. In the Quran Allah (swt) forbids us from even giving up hope in Him. He is capable of forgiving sin without having to have someone tell him what you did in life. He is supreme.

No one is telling you that the whole Bible is corrupted. There are still some parts of the original message that are in tact. We are trying to tell you that major parts of it have been changed, altered, modified, forged to the point where you are now breaking the first commandment by worshiping a man instead of the One God who created that man. All we want for you is to read, listen and learn. That's all anyone here has been telling you to do yet you keep copying and pasting drivel from anti-Islamic websites.

Oldest known Bible goes online


The world's oldest known Christian Bible goes online Monday -- but the 1,600-year-old text doesn't match the one you'll find in churches today.

Discovered in a monastery in the Sinai desert in Egypt more than 160 years ago, the handwritten Codex Sinaiticus includes two books that are not part of the official New Testament and at least seven books that are not in the Old Testament.

The New Testament books are in a different order, and include numerous handwritten corrections -- some made as much as 800 years after the texts were written, according to scholars who worked on the project of putting the Bible online. The changes range from the alteration of a single letter to the insertion of whole sentences.

And some familiar -- very important -- passages are missing, including verses dealing with the resurrection of Jesus, they said.

Juan Garces, the British Library project curator, said it should be no surprise that the ancient text is not quite the same as the modern one, since the Bible has developed and changed over the years.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-06/world/ancient.bible.online_1_codex-sinaiticus-constantine-tischendorf-new-testament?_s=PM:WORLD
Reply

Burninglight
01-23-2012, 04:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Riana17
Peace be with you Brother

Excellent question, well as I could remember, I used to claim that I am a Christian but infact I do not go to church or pray or know nothing about it.

However, I always say that I wanted to go to heaven if there is heaven, I wanted to pray to God if there is TRUE GOD, I wanted to have a peaceful life and never hurt others: these were few of my intentions.
You seem to me to be a very nice person. So you are not sure how Allah guided you, but you are thankful he did? Am I understanding correctly? This frustrately leaves me back at square one. I see more things about love and peace during the times Jesus walked the earth recorded in the NT than the Quran. For instance, tThe Bible says love your enemies, bless those that curse you, pray for those who despitefully use you, but the Quran says kill the infidel wherver you find them. There are different kinds of Islam: radical and peaceful Muslim like yourself. If I became a Muslim, I would probably be bent of being radical. So how will radical and peaceful Muslim get along?
Reply

Burninglight
01-23-2012, 04:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Ever heard of Mithra?
Yes, when I first heard about it it really shook me pretty bad, but I reasearched it further and learned that all the resemblances they claim Jesus had with Mithra are inferences and forced fits by non believers who what to destroy ones faith in God altogether.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Stop reading those anti-Islamic websites. Stay off of those websites because all you're doing right now is kidding yourself with false information about those so-called satanic verses.

This is what the Quran says about those false idols!

So have you considered al-Lat and al-'Uzza? (19) And Manat, the third - the other one? (20) Is the male for you and for him the female? (21) That, then, is an unjust division. (22) They are not but [mere] names you have named them - you and your forefathers - for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance.
[53:19-22]
I am doing has much research as I can. I like making informed decision. I only asked you a question . I don't know why you're telling me to not visit anti Islam sites. I am not looking for such sites; I am looking for the truth, but one never finds that among subject opinions. Am I a right?
peace :)
Reply

Abz2000
01-23-2012, 05:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I see more things about love and peace during the times Jesus walked the earth recorded in the NT than the Quran. For instance, tThe Bible says love your enemies, bless those that curse you, pray for those who despitefully use you, but the Quran says kill the infidel wherver you find them.
the bible tells you about the "saints of the later days" i think the mormons tried to usurp the name, but the evidences are there:

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:
and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 13

this speaks of a tyrannical government that is given power over all nations, and the people who oppose it have a specific law of retaliation:

ـٓأَيَّها ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ كُتِبَ عَلَيكُمُ ٱلقِصَاصُ فِى ٱلقَتلَى*ۖ ٱلحُرُّ بِٱلحُرِّ وَٱلعَبدُ بِٱلعَبدِ وَٱلأُنثَىٰ بِٱلأُنثَىٰ*ۚ فَمَنۡ عُفِىَ لَهُ ۥ مِنۡ أَخِيهِ شَىۡءٌ۬ )
فَٱتِّبَاعُۢ بِٱلمَعرُوفِ وَأَدَآءٌ إِلَيهِ بِإِحسَـٰنٍ۬*ۗ ذَٲلِكَ تَخفِيفٌ۬ مِّن رَّبِّكُمۡوَرَحمَةٌ۬*ۗ فَمَنِ ٱعتَدَىٰ بَعدَ ذَٲلِكَ فَلَهُ ۥ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ۬ ١٧٨(
وَلَكُمۡ فِى ٱلقِصَاصِ حَيَوٰةٌ۬ يَـٰأُوْلِى ٱلأَلبَـٰبِ لَعَلَّكُمۡ تَتَّقُونَ ) ١٧٩)

O you who believe! the law of retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain;
the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female;
but if any remission is made to any one by his
(aggrieved) brother, then (the demand for the bloodwit)
should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good man*ner;
this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this, he shall have a painful chastisement
And there is life for you in the retaliation, O men of understanding, that you may (tattaqoon) guard your-selves/heed/restrain yourselves.
Quran 2:178-179

the verse someone quoted you out of context regarding "killing infidels" is elaborated in the next part of the same verse and the next verse which the debunkers don't quote:

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush.
But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way.
Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.


this happened in response to the continuous breaking of covenants by the polytheists and one really tragic case,
the bellievers were instructed to take authority over the land.

bear in mind that Jesus (pbuh) spoke of the complete law that guides unto all truth.
and the description is there.

peace

Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
01-23-2012, 07:28 PM
Greetings of peace

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I don't understand why so many Christians are converting to Islam. What can a Muslim tell me to convince me that it is the way I should go? Am I missing something here? Sorry, but I just don't get it! What do you have that I don't already?:hmm:
Well, there is a great difference between christianity and islaam, those individuals who chose to accept islaam as their faith did so by their own research and will, by seeking help from God.

The belief of christianity is quite different to islam, so you are missing quite a lot to be honest.

Islam: Belief of the oneness of God allmighty. A muslim believes that every messenger sent upon the earth came with a clear message which is that there is only one God and that the messenger was sent as a guidance/warner to his people/nations at specific times.

Christianity: Belief that the Father is God, Jesus is God. Quite frankly, i have no idea how important the prophets are to christians or whether they are aware of their purpose and what they were sent for, and also reading some of the verses of the bible these 'messenger's' are given no respect. I for one cannot accept God making mistakes, either these prophets are not prophets according to bible of the present day. But if I am incorrect feel free to correct me on that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I looked at many testimonies and I felt like crying out of frustration. Most of the converts were Catholics. I was born and raised Catholic, but I could never identify with Catholism. I am just a simple Christian that believes in one Almighty God with no partners. Most conversions or what Muslims call reversions I listened to were based on what these ex Catholics felt. I believe that feelings make a wonderful servant but a very poor leader. I have also read the testimonies of Muslims that revert to Christianity or convert. These testimonies are different. They are based on divine intervention and not on what one felt right and good with.

I have to admit the so called 'tesminonies' i've watched on the net in regards to 'conversions from islam to christianity' really do not make sense, so i would also speak similarly as yourself.

One of the things I noticed that in most of those testimonies is that these 'muslims' have not heard of Jesus (p), although a muslim is not a muslim if he denies Jesus (p) meaning one of God's prophets, which ofcourse you may not agree with. There is a whole chapter in regards to the mother of jesus (p) in the noble Qur'aan, named 'Maryam' chapter 19, i recomend you read up on this inshaa'Allaah, since you've come on this forum with the intention of asking.

There are quite a lot of other differences, for example a muslim believes in the oneness of God, performs his 5 daily prayers, gives charity, fasts in the month of ramadhaan, performs pilmigrimage, so which of these do you follow as a christian? Which of these did Jesus (p) do?. I would sincerely recomend you read up on your books along with the Qur'aan, i hope that things would make sense to you, or become clear in regards to your faith and ours ..

Also, may I ask did you manage to see a previous post of mine on this thread?
Reply

Aprender
01-23-2012, 07:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I don't know why you're telling me to not visit anti Islam sites. I am not looking for such sites; I am looking for the truth
You won't get the truth from a website that will tell you false information about an entire religion and present it to you as such. If you want to know the truth about Islam then take it from scholarly Muslim sources and decide on your own. You can't learn from something that tells you how to think and what to believe about something else. That's indoctrination, not objective education.

Brother abz2000 already refuted that translation about "killing infidels" but I wanted to point out to you that the word infidel is a term that was coined by the Catholic church against all forms of Christianity that weren't Catholicism. You are an infidel according to them. In the Quran, you are one of The People of the Book.

Reply

Burninglight
01-23-2012, 08:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
the bible tells you about the "saints of the later days" i think the mormons tried to usurp the name, but the evidences are there:

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:
and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 13

this speaks of a tyrannical government that is given power over all nations, and the people who oppose it have a specific law of retaliation:
Yes the Mormons did do that. I don't consider them Christians they are a cult that identify with Jesus, but they have a different Jesus. As far as the verses you quoted yes it does speak of a very tyrannical government. This government is the anti-Christ system that we'll be against the church of God. The love and peace message I spoke of in the Bible is talking about the way Christians should behave. It is not about how the ungodly should act
Reply

Burninglight
01-23-2012, 08:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
You are an infidel according to them. In the Quran, you are one of The People of the Book.
Isn't that something. I am a person of the Book to Muslims but an infidel to the Catholics from where I was born and raised.
Aprender (to learn) Can you speak Spanish? Well, the Quran 10:24 says that Muhammad should consult with them if he should doubt his prophet hood. Isn't that true? I guess Allah expects me to be people of the Book because he hasn't called me to the Quran.
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Burninglight
01-23-2012, 10:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ğħαrєєвαħ
Well, there is a great difference between christianity and islaam, those individuals who chose to accept islaam as their faith did so by their own research and will, by seeking help from God.
Yes, there is a night and day difference. Yes, it is my understanding as well people become Muslims from their own research and will, but I don't see God's hand.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ğħαrєєвαħ
The belief of christianity is quite different to islam, so you are missing quite a lot to be honest.
What I am I missing that I don't have now?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ğħαrєєвαħ
Islam: Belief of the oneness of God allmighty. A muslim believes that every messenger sent upon the earth came with a clear message which is that there is only one God and that the messenger was sent as a guidance/warner to his people/nations at specific times.
We believe in the oness of God; you don't believe we do. That is not my problem.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ğħαrєєвαħ
Christianity: Belief that the Father is God, Jesus is God. Quite frankly, i have no idea how important the prophets are to christians or whether they are aware of their purpose and what they were sent for, and also reading some of the verses of the bible these 'messenger's' are given no respect. I for one cannot accept God making mistakes, either these prophets are not prophets according to bible of the present day. But if I am incorrect feel free to correct me on that.
I believe you are correct to a point about the prophets. We consider apostles to be higher in authority than prophets and prophets are higher than evangelist and then their are pastors, teachers and lay persons such as bishops & deacons. we believe God is no respector of persons for the most part.The respect you show to prophet Muahmmad seems to Christians to be on the bordline of idolatry. We see the apostles as about all prophets, but still we consider them no better than us baby Christians because God is not respector of persons. We see Jesus as not God the father but as the son of the living God. Jesus never said I am God, but He strongly alludes to it as the disciples flat out say He is, but we believe God is one so we see Jesus as God's word inacarnate and therefore deity. Jesus said, "You will all die in your sins if you do not believe that I am He" He said, "I am the Way and truth...." he didn't say I show the way like other prophets. Jesus to us is a prophets prophet and Lord of lords. In the Bible Jesus is refered to by many titles that can only be said of God such as Mighty God Wonderful Counselor, Prince of Peace and the list goes on and on/
format_quote Originally Posted by Ğħαrєєвαħ
There are quite a lot of other differences, for example a muslim believes in the oneness of God, performs his 5 daily prayers, gives charity, fasts in the month of ramadhaan, performs pilmigrimage, so which of these do you follow as a christian? Which of these did Jesus (p) do?. I would sincerely recomend you read up on your book along with the Qur'aan, i hope that things would make sense to you, or become clear in regards to your faith and ours ..
The only thing we have to follow is love God with all our being and our neighbor as ourself. This fufills all the law and the prophets. As far as prayer we are to pray without ceasing not at any appointed time but anytime. We can pray while washing dishes or driving a car. Prayer is communiction with God it is not just us speaking our piece but letting God speak His to us as well.

No, I didn't see yyour other thread
Reply

Aprender
01-23-2012, 10:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Aprender (to learn) Can you speak Spanish?
Yes.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Well, the Quran 10:24 says that Muhammad should consult with them if he should doubt his prophet hood. Isn't that true? I guess Allah expects me to be people of the Book because he hasn't called me to the Quran.
The example of [this] worldly life is but like rain which We have sent down from the sky that the plants of the earth absorb - [those] from which men and livestock eat - until, when the earth has taken on its adornment and is beautified and its people suppose that they have capability over it, there comes to it Our command by night or by day, and We make it as a harvest, as if it had not flourished yesterday. Thus do We explain in detail the signs for a people who give thought. (24) And Allah invites to the Home of Peace and guides whom He wills to a straight path (25)
Yunus [10:24-25]

Beautiful Surah in the Quran. There are many lessons to be learned from it. I think that the fact that you are trying to learn about Islam right now is enough. Like I said before, it took me 4 years before I decided to take my shahada and become a Muslim. It's usually not something that happens overnight although there are some that accept it much sooner than others. I went from being born and starting out in a Baptist church, to a Jehovah's Witness in my childhood, to considering Catholicism in my early teens to just non-denominational all together. I spent many nights crying and praying about what was happening but in the end Allah (swt) led me to Islam and alhamdulillah I haven't been happier. I asked for signs and He sent them directly to me.

Before I took my shahada, I read the Quran, studied the authenticity of it. Studied many of the scientific miracles in it. Then after that satisfied me I wasn't so sure that Muhammad (pbuh) was really a Prophet. I had heard from many Muslims that his name was prophesied in the Bible but removed. So I went to back to the Bible, earlier versions of it translated from earlier manuscripts and I studied that to see what in the world they were talking about. Now, some people say that it was a word that meant something else that was simply translated in Hebrew. So I went to the Hebrew, to listen to how it is pronounced when recited in the text.


Then of course I read about the Gospel of Barnabus, and how it was left out of later versions of the Bible? Why? Once I read it I saw why since it referred to Muhammad (pbuh). But I wanted to know more. How was this different from Jospeh Smith? So I read the Book of Mormon. :heated: Let's just say that was a dead end for me. Then I read some biographies about the life of Muhammad (pbuh) and that helped clarify a lot for me.

You could benefit by watching this video. This brother in the video used to be a Christian youth minister as well. If you think that Islam teaches a different teaching then this video will show you that what we do in Islam follows some of what was said in the Bible but is not currently practiced by many Christians today.



We encourage you to keep learning and keep asking questions, brother. And we will answer them for you. But first you really have to let go of all of the misconceptions, false information and other lies that you've heard and I also encourage you not to read the ignorant comments from atheists or people who hate Muslims and the Islamic religion from various YouTube videos as well. That's what I had to do. One minute it all makes sense then you read a comment from some miserable lost person and you're back to doubting everything again just the way Satan likes it.

Also, if you really want to know what Islam is like, I encourage you to visit a local mosque. Find a Muslim brother where you are and ask him questions and ask him to take you to the masjid. Before I converted I visited one. I was at first afraid to go in because I had heard all of these rumors about how I would be shouted at or disrespectful if I went in with my hair uncovered but that's not how it was at all. I asked one of the sisters to take me and give me a tour and to my surprise, two other sisters came with her that day and we all walked over to the masjid together. I was happy that I wasn't going alone. I noticed even while walking with them the blatant ignorance that people had toward Muslims. Giving the sisters nasty looks--we even got forced OFF of the sidewalk. The amazing thing about it was all of those sisters just smiled and kept on going to the masjid like it was nothing. Back in my old neighborhood if someone did that it was grounds for being kicked.

When I got there, no one made me put on a hijab but I had to take off my shoes. Then we went and we did wudu and went upstairs to the prayer area. SubhaanAllah it was soo peaceful and lovely in there. I had never been in a place quite like it. There was a sister there watching the sunset out of a window and when I looked at her she smiled. She looked like she was in a very serene place. I really just wanted to stay there all night. I didn't want to leave but I had a class that I had to get to. No one tried to blow me up. No one shouted at me. No one was rolling around on the floor shaking and speaking in tongues like they do at some churches. It was just very calm, very serene and a great place to be. I couldn't even explain the feeling I was feeling to myself if this place was supposed to be bad. So, before I left, I got an English translation of the Quran and that was the first time I had read the whole thing. Nothing about murdering all non-believers and killing everyone on the street. Think about it. Over one billion Muslims in the world. If the religion taught to kill all non-Muslims the world population wouldn't be where it is right now. What I learned from the Quran was quite the opposite of everything that I was told about the religion and everything that I was told about my own Christian religion was quite the opposite of what I learned by going directly to the Biblical texts and studying them.

Keep searching. Keep asking questions and keep looking. May Allah have mercy on us all and may He, The Most Exalted, help you find the truth and the peace that you are looking for in your heart. Ameeeen
Reply

Txyib
01-23-2012, 11:25 PM
SORRY IF THE POST IS LATE
asalamualaiukum
dear brother or sister
i think the reason why so many non muslims are converting to islam is that they can see the greatness of islam and they love the fact that they believe in the true and authentic yet peaceful religion
moreover i also think that they become Muslims because they have seen miracles such as a person being cured by the name of Allah yet the doctors couldn't prove, Christians may have also converted because they know that Islam is a way of life and its holy book the quran hasn't been altered by man as the other books have.
another reason why Christians become Muslims is that they are inspired by the nature of Islam or are just inspired by their fellow Muslim brothers or sisters;the way they act and the way they talk.their whole personality is filled with tenderness
brother or sister i am sure there are many reasons why they convert/ed but this is all i could think of after talking to a few friends
hope i have supported your opinion.
wasalamualaikum
Reply

Crystal
01-23-2012, 11:48 PM
As a former Christian and now a recent revert to Islam, I can understand why other christians became Muslims. The concept of God is much clearer in Islam than it is in christianity. I never understood how Jesus pbuh could be a man and God if God is so beyond our imagination. I believe God to be greater than a human being. Unfortunately this is why little kids today view God as a man in the sky, alhamdulilah i found islam.
Reply

Burninglight
01-24-2012, 12:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
We encourage you to keep learning and keep asking questions, brother.
Well, that was a very nice presentation it was long but thorough. The person has the gift of teaching. You are very intelligient. He said something about women. That they are like a diamond and treated the same. A Muslim man told me "If someone threw two pieces of candy on the floor and one was wrapped and the other not which would you take?" I said the wrapped; he said, "That is how we treat our women" I have heard the man in the video say that women are not to be oppressed; then, he said not to be oppressed without a reason.

So Women are looked at and treated as if they were property, and they are at the subjective mercy of their men based on whether they should be oppressed or not. They are even taught how they are to beat their women to avoid oppressing them. Hmm, how about teaching men not to beat them at all to avoid oppression?
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Before I took my shahada, I read the Quran, studied the authenticity of it. Studied many of the scientific miracles in it. Then after that satisfied me I wasn't so sure that Muhammad (pbuh) was really a Prophet. I had heard from many Muslims that his name was prophesied in the Bible but removed.
My sister I just cannot handle your testimony, it makes my heart weep. I listened to what you sent, but it doesn't bear witness with my spirit, and I wonder how it did with yours. You weren't sure about Muhammad; I can relate to that. The Torah states that Ishmael will be blessed and be turned into a great nation for Abraham's sake, but no prophets were to come from Him. Muslims teach that this is a corruption of Scripture. But how?

Allah promised that his word would not be altered, Since Gen 21:12 and 17:21 don't confirm Muhammad's prophet hood, we are taught it is a corruption. Muhammad never said such a thing about the Torah but doubted himself to where Allah told him to confirm it with the Scriptures that came before and us people of the Book of what once you used to be S 10:94. My sister have you read Gal. 3: 1-12?

Why would Allah tell Muhammad to confirm his ministry with corrupted Scruptures?

The guy on the video taught that we must do 5 deeds and one is to confess Muhammad as God's prophet. So you must confess the name of non deity (a slave of Allah) or you cannot be Muslim. I know Muslims don't pray to Muhammad and don't see him a son of God like we see Jesus, but you must associate his name in mention with Allah or you cannot be a Muslim, Hmm. That to me, is ascribing and associating a name with Allah like the verse the guy mentioned in the video "that if you shall confess with your mouth Jesus.."

So Muslims do what they accuse us Christians of to a lessor degree by having to mention the name Muhammmad.
I also listen to that clip and the word muhammadim which is used as an adjective meaning all together lovely. Sorry, I will still ask and search, but I am back at square one my sister. I asked you about those three entities and instead of answering my question you admonished me not to look at certain sites. Why is it said that Muhammad gave a prohecy concerinng the three cranes whose intercession is hoped for? Otherwise known as Satanic verses? You tell me the story behind it. Is it true or not?
Reply

Ramadhan
01-24-2012, 05:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I don't really look at it that way I just see it that I worship the one true God.
try to look up the definition of "delusion"
some people who have delusion claim that what they feel/experience is real, but it is not.

By your assertion, a hindu is also monotheist, because they claim they worship one ture god.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Jesus doesn't say He is God but He alludes to it and I accept that he is God's son like He claims.
Jesus also said not to worship him, but to worship God alone. And yet christians worship jesus (pbuh).
God also says he has many sons, so why don't you also worship david, ibrahim, adam (pbut)?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
The Scriptures say He is and yours say He's not.
I kept asking where jesus ACTUALLY said he is god or part of god and that you should worship him.

You keep EVADING my questions.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
My question is why would I want ot believe Muhammad over Jesus?
Because Muhammad (saw) confirmed the true message of Jesus (pbuh).

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Yea, I guess I can relate to what your saying here, but I believe there is only one God.
So God's name is Jesus?
How about Holy spirit? he is God too according to christians, and yet christians seem to have neglected him?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I know you don't ask anything from Muhammad and you don't pray to him or see him as divine. I didn't say you did. I said you must mention his name with Allah or you cannot be Muslim or in the religion of Islam.
If we said that We believe there is no God but Allah and Muhammad, than yes, you can say we associate Allah with Muhammad (saw).
Just like what christians who believe in the father, the son, and the holy spirit as God.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I will look on the other threads to answer your question, but I am not sure which one you're referring to.
peace
You kept evading my post #8 and #15 in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...hristians.html

Most importantly, I asked you about Jesus' ACTUAL words, and you haven't provided any.
Reply

Burninglight
01-24-2012, 05:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
how can you imagine that you believe believe in monotheism when you tell us that Jesus, pbuh, is, " subordinate to God in position, office and function"? if you have 1 god in superior position and another in an inferior position, you are clearly NOT a monotheist, but a polytheist. THAT, is logic.

so you could say, "i wouldn't want to be caught dead in YOUR shoes!"
I didn't answer post 8, because there was no question asked. I have answered questions like this in other threads. I don't imagine I believe God is one; I know He is! I never mentioned the word inferior, I said subordinate but equal in nature. I believe what Jesus said, The Lord our God is one. I believe that Jesus is God's word incarnate not God's partner! I don't believe that God begot as in seered Jesus, but I believe Jesus when He calls God His father, and I believe God when He calls Jesus His beloved son. God didn't say begotten son He said "beloved son." I also believe the Scripture when it states: "He that has the son has life; he that doesn't have the son has not life , but the wrath of God abides on Him" I believe the KJV is a translation error when it uses the word begotten!
Reply

Burninglight
01-24-2012, 06:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
I kept asking where jesus ACTUALLY said he is god or part of god and that you should worship him.

You keep EVADING my questions.
I am sorry, I am not doing it on purpose. I lose track because I am innondated with posts. If you could show or tell me what I missed I will try to answer
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
try to look up the definition of "delusion"
some people who have delusion claim that what they feel/experience is real, but it is not.

By your assertion, a hindu is also monotheist, because they claim they worship one ture god.
So you are basically calling me delusional? I don't get what you mean by Hindus being monotheistic; they don't even share the same prophets we do.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Jesus also said not to worship him, but to worship God alone. And yet christians worship jesus (pbuh).
God also says he has many sons, so why don't you also worship david, ibrahim, adam (pbut)?
Where does Jesus say don't worship me in the Bible? If he said that, that would lean me more to Islam than ever before. You aren't making true statments are you?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
I kept asking where jesus ACTUALLY said he is god or part of god and that you should worship him.

You keep EVADING my questions.
You already know what the Christian answers are to these questions. Show me where Jesus said He wasn't deity or God's son or where He said not to worship Him.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
So God's name is Jesus?
How about Holy spirit? he is God too according to christians, and yet christians seem to have neglected him?
Jesus is the name of God's son who is also God's word in the flesh
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
If we said that We believe there is no God but Allah and Muhammad, than yes, you can say we associate Allah with Muhammad (saw).
Just like what christians who believe in the father, the son, and the holy spirit as God.
I understand, but you do associate the name of your prophet with Allah by the sear fact that you MUST mention the name of Muhammad or you cannot be Muslim or have any part in Islam. Is this not true, Yes or No?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Most importantly, I asked you about Jesus' ACTUAL words, and you haven't provided any.
Jesus said, "You will die in your sins if you do not believe I am He....No man comes to God except through me...Before Abraham was I am.... I am the door...I am the beginning and the end...If you have seen me, you have seen the father; You say I blaspheme because I say I am the son of God... I am the truth, way and the life... I have the keys to hell and death... I come to judge the living and the dead... you believe in God believe also in me" shall I go on?

I didn't answer post 8 because I didn't see a question, but I answered 15 in this thread post 73
PBUT
:)
Reply

Burninglight
01-24-2012, 06:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tayib786
SORRY IF THE POST IS LATE
asalamualaiukum
dear brother or sister
i think the reason why so many non muslims are converting to islam is that they can see the greatness of islam and they love the fact that they believe in the true and authentic yet peaceful religion
moreover i also think that they become Muslims because they have seen miracles such as a person being cured by the name of Allah yet the doctors couldn't prove, Christians may have also converted because they know that Islam is a way of life and its holy book the quran hasn't been altered by man as the other books have.
another reason why Christians become Muslims is that they are inspired by the nature of Islam or are just inspired by their fellow Muslim brothers or sisters;the way they act and the way they talk.their whole personality is filled with tenderness
brother or sister i am sure there are many reasons why they convert/ed but this is all i could think of after talking to a few friends
hope i have supported your opinion.
wasalamualaikum
I can see the greatness of islam too.
I see many miracles happen in the name of Jesus
I am inspired by the love Christians have for one another
Christianity is a way of life as well
The Bible is not corrupted; If someone took the Quran and added some verses to it and translated it into English with some errors but scholars know what interpolation were injected and why; if they know the correct words for the negligible translational errors they wouldn't consider the Quran corrupted to the point of not knowing God's or Allah's word and will. Well it is the same with the Bible
Reply

Ramadhan
01-24-2012, 06:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I didn't answer post 8, because there was no question asked.
You are not blind and you are not illiterate.
Here's what I asked:

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
I asked you, I want Jesus' ACTUAL words, not your own words.
Where is it?
You claimed that Jesus (pbuh) said he has a father in heaven. You have not given me Jesus' (pbuh) ACTUAL words.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I don't imagine I believe God is one; I know He is! I never mentioned the word inferior, I said subordinate but equal in nature.
Yes, a hindu also claimed they are monotheistic, but do you agree that hindus are monotheistic?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I believe the KJV is a translation error when it uses the word begotten!
You keep saying that bible has translation error, but NOT once you gave us the original so that we can compare if there was a translation error.
Reply

Ramadhan
01-24-2012, 06:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I am sorry, I am not doing it on purpose. I lose track because I am innondated with posts. If you could show or tell me what I missed I will try to answer
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...hristians.html


Post #8 and #15

Please answer them.

I will keep reminding you to answer them.

If you believe christianity is the truth, surely you are not afraid of those questions and surely you have the answers.
Reply

Riana17
01-24-2012, 06:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
You seem to me to be a very nice person. So you are not sure how Allah guided you, but you are thankful he did? Am I understanding correctly? This frustrately leaves me back at square one. I see more things about love and peace during the times Jesus walked the earth recorded in the NT than the Quran. For instance, tThe Bible says love your enemies, bless those that curse you, pray for those who despitefully use you, but the Quran says kill the infidel wherver you find them. There are different kinds of Islam: radical and peaceful Muslim like yourself. If I became a Muslim, I would probably be bent of being radical. So how will radical and peaceful Muslim get along?
Hehehe you are fun and you made my day Brother

The truth I dont have a sure hint, but I have little idea, perhaps its because I always wanted to live simple, though I am a woman I can say I am not material, I appreciate peace & justice more than love that's why Islam appeals alot to me, I always pray good things for others even if they hurt me somehow.

That's it I think, because if I say I am kind and generous and cute :D
oh Allah does not love that, its a sign of PROUDness, and there is no cure of being PROUD
:heated:
Personally I do not believe in labeling or classifying, there is only ONE true & perfect RELIGION: and so "MUSLIMs" are the only follower of ISLAM

Islam teaches us to pray to One God, have good intention all the time, treat others the way we wanted to be treated, be kind to parents, family & neighbours but if someone attack us & cause destruction we should not hide and run away far, we should keep faith that Allah is with us and defend ourselves in ISLAMIC way, which is called JIHAD, basically Muslim must not start a war, we must spread peace, and also we are not allowed to kill children or women.

I hope you can see this video, I can see it's a bit mean but then, alhamdollellah the Christian Brother seems kind and sport

Luke 19:27
Jesus said: And as for these enemies of mine who didn't want me to be their king--bring them in and kill them right here in front of me.






Please do not misunderstand though I dont have complete knowledge about it, Jihad is in many forms. and the best one as our Prophet himself (saws) said that the greatest jihad is the jihad of self, and it is one that I fight every day.

Jihad means striving for the cause of Allah, The spiritual struggle within oneself against sin.

For example, when I was non Muslim I do not wear Hijab, I do not like it immediately after reversion, but I did it successfully to please Allah, it is both kind of JIHAD: ----- before (when I do not like) and now (that I love wearing it).
Reply

Ramadhan
01-24-2012, 06:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
So you are basically calling me delusional? I don't get what you mean by Hindus being monotheistic; they don't even share the same prophets we do.
monotheistic means believe in one god. I hope you actually understand the term?

Hindus CLAIM they believe in one god. So, according to your criteria, hindus are monotheistic as well.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Where does Jesus say don't worship me in the Bible? If he said that, that would lean me more to Islam than ever before. You aren't making true statments are you?
Here's the commandments thaat all christians are breaking by worshiping jesus (pbuh):

Thou shalt have none other gods before me
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

(Matthew 15:9):
“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

Men make all doctrines of modern Christianity: the Trinity, Divine Sonship of Jesus, Divinity of Jesus Christ, Original Sin and Atonement.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
You already know what the Christian answers are to these questions.
No, I don't know.
Please tell us Jesus' ACTUAL words. Do not keep evading my questions if you believe that christianity is the truth.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Jesus is the name of God's son who is also God's word in the flesh
So God has a son named Jesus. and jesus is your subordinate God.
I see that christians believe God has sons named Adam, Jacob, Solomon, Ephraim, Common people, and Jesus.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I understand, but you do associate the name of your prophet with Allah by the sear fact that you MUST mention the name of Muhammad or you cannot be Muslim or have any part in Islam. Is this not true, Yes or No?
Logic has failed you my friend.
The burden is on you that we associate Allah with Muhammad (saw).

I give you a basic example of logic:
I believe priest X is child abuser. I believe Burninglight is a christian.

Does this mean I associate you with child abuser priest X?

Is this not true, Yes or No?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Jesus said, "You will die in your sins if you do not believe I am He....No man comes to God except through me...Before Abraham was I am.... I am the door...I am the beginning and the end...If you have seen me, you have seen the father; You say I blaspheme because I say I am the son of God... I am the truth, way and the life... I have the keys to hell and death... I come to judge the living and the dead... you believe in God believe also in me" shall I go on?
Again, I asked:

I want you to show me Jesus' ACTUAL WORDS

not your own words please.....
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
01-24-2012, 10:58 AM
Greetings of peace

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Yes, there is a night and day difference. Yes, it is my understanding as well people become Muslims from their own research and will, but I don't see God's hand.
God's hand as in God's blessings, benefits right? As far as I am aware I can see god's 'hand' (not in literal terms ofcourse). Let's say for example one has commited a sin, does that mean our world is over? no ofcourse not, but does it mean we can continue to sin, again, nope! If we follow the teachings of God it is repenting, repenting with the intention of not doing that sin over again. God Allmighty explains to us that he is the forgiver, and the sins will be forgiven if you are sincere and fulfill the conditions in order to be forgiven. Tell me do you not see God's hand in this? When an individual embraces Islam, their slate is clean, therefore becoming sinless like a pure child.

Another example, giving charity to those in need, this is from the teachings of God, and much more one is required to do to obey God, none of that which God commands for us to do is harmful for ourselves if only we obey. You may well say that the bible teaches the same, and I will agree on that, that Jesus (p) did teach these, he was most certainly sent by God.

Commandments of enjoing good and forbidding the evil. Is not God's 'hand' in this, why would he tell us to forbid what is harmful for us where we are then safe and enjoin the good where we have recieved numerous amounts of benefits.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Jesus is the name of God's son who is also God's word in the flesh
Abraham, Moses, unto the final messenger Muhammad (p) were all God's word in flesh!

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
What I am I missing that I don't have now?
Well, I was stating the differences that I am aware of between christianity and islaam, and I mentioned 5 daily prayers, oneness of God etc. As you asked

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
What do you have that I don't already?
So do you pray 5 times a day, thanking God in every step you take in doing a certain action, perform pilgrimage etc etc. The modesty prescribed for both men and women, from God. There may well be more. Usually some of these are indications to show one is muslim, these are differences, something you do not have whereas muslims do. However, I believe the bible has commanded the modest dress code. But it's about who is actually implementing the teachings of their holy book.

Is not your goal as a christian to follow Jesus (p) in what he did in his daily life? Did he not come to fulfill the will of God? Following him as he is the way the kingdom of God? I agree on all this, what I disagree with is that you say Jesus is God whereas you also believe in a father, and Jesus also worshipped/prayed to the father. And then you state there you believe in the oneness of God.

If you did just this i.e. believe in one God, and believe that he sent his messengers to mankind with a message to guide them, meaning all his messengers i.e unto the final messenger Muhammad (p) and those who choose to follow them they are the successful ones indeed, you would be considered a 'muslim', btw a muslim is one who submits to the will of God, do you not submit to the will of God? If not, state your reasons.

If not, is it either because you don't want to be part of the 'islamic' faith, wheras islam is only a complete way of life that all prophets and messengers followed. You have disagreements on certain issues, then ask!

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
We believe in the oness of God; you don't believe we do. That is not my problem.
No, it is problem for me when there are those who associate partners with allmighty God when he never asked of this. Are you speaking for all christians? Do you worship the father in heaven or Jesus (p)?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
The respect you show to prophet Muahmmad seems to Christians to be on the bordline of idolatry. We see the apostles as about
But was Jesus (p) not a person? If the respect we show to Muhammad (p) was similar to idolatry, then why did you state this in response to br.Ramadhaan

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I know you don't ask anything from Muhammad and you don't pray to him or see him as divine.
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
The respect you show to prophet Muahmmad seems to Christians to be on the bordline of idolatry.
Isn't idoltry, worshipping something? over praising one? If you see a certain individual doing this, does this mean that the Qur'aan teaches this? As you may know that prophet Muhammad (p) was the same man who destroyed many idols, so if any individual claims of worshipping him then they are clearly not following his (Muhammad's (p)) teachings.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
so we see Jesus as God's word inacarnate and therefore deity.
You see Jesus (p) as God's word incarnate and therefore deity, thus making 2 god's right? Why can you not accept that he was one who was sent with the message? Have you not read the story of Moses? of Noah? Why were those who associate partners with God destroyed besides those who were with Moses i.e his followers, or Noah or many other messengers, why weren't they destroyed?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
"I am the Way and truth...."
All prophets were the way and the truth, were the prophets sent to misguide their people? These prophets came with a 'true' message and they all said 'Fear God and follow me'.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
In the Bible Jesus is refered to by many titles that can only be said of God such as Mighty God Wonderful Counselor, Prince of Peace and the list goes on and on/
Prophet Muhammad (p) was known by many names also. However, many names were attributed to God allmighty, such as All knowing, All seeying, The most forgiving, the most merciful etc.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
The only thing we have to follow is love God with all our being and our neighbor as ourself. This fufills all the law and the prophets. As far as prayer we are to pray without ceasing not at any appointed time but anytime. We can pray while washing dishes or driving a car. Prayer is communiction with God it is not just us speaking our piece but letting God speak His to us as well.
You are indeed correct. There is no doubt in that. Indeed as humans we have the ability to pray anytime, anywhere, which consists of raising ones hand and calling upon his lord, just like Jesus did in the bible (Ref.John 17-1) , the prayer I am speaking of is when one bows, prostrates etc. Although this can be prayed everywhere
We should be indeed grateful to God that we are able to ask of him anywhere and anytime.

May I ask then why did Jesus (p) pray?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
No, I didn't see yyour other thread
I believe I mentioned this thread..

format_quote Originally Posted by Ğħαrєєвαħ
previous post of mine on this thread?
post 27#


I hope that we can all have a positive and peaceful discussion God willingly. lol I don't how I manage to get my posts to be huge :\, Burninglight, please take your time in responding.
Reply

Burninglight
01-24-2012, 02:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
You are not blind and you are not illiterate.
Here's what I asked:
No , i am not blind or illiterate. Ramadhan, you are coming off a bite harsh. Do you realize that?
:heated:
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
You claimed that Jesus (pbuh) said he has a father in heaven. You have not given me Jesus' (pbuh) ACTUAL words.
"But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered him, "You are Christ, the Son of the living God". Jesus replied: "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah". — Matthew 16:15-17.[14]
  • In John 5:23 he claims that the Son and the Father receive the same type of honor, stating: "so that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father".[6][20]

  • In John 5:26 he claims to possess life as the Father does: "Just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself".[6][

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Yes, a hindu also claimed they are monotheistic, but do you agree that hindus are monotheistic?
I don't know what they believe nor do I care; I am more interested in Islam because it is an Abrahamic religion. Hinduism is the third largest religion, but they are going to have to chose between the two largest religions of the world Christianity or Islam!
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
You keep saying that bible has translation error, but NOT once you gave us the original so that we can compare if there was a translation error.
The best translation I have found is the ESV, but the Bible have problems with translation to one point or an other; in fact, besides my not seeing any divine mandate that the Quran should have been written it appears to have some translation issues in English but like the Bible I would consider them for the most part on the negligible side. I don't know where there is an originial do you?
If someone sent me an original letter and it got lost in the mail, I would never know what it said. but if someone made a copy of the original and sent it to me, I would then know what it said even if the copy wasn't complete, I would still have an idea of what was true about the message.
Reply

Burninglight
01-24-2012, 03:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
monotheistic means believe in one god. I hope you actually understand the term?

Hindus CLAIM they believe in one god. So, according to your criteria, hindus are monotheistic as well.
Yes, I know what monthesitc means. Hinduism conceives the whole world as a single family that deifies the one truth, and therefore it accepts all forms of beliefs and dismisses labels of distinct religions which would imply a division of identity.[They see the whole world as one big happy family. They claim to be all things and claim to accept all religions including Islam and Christianity. So this is not a good example of what you are trying to say. Christianity is mutually exclusive from all religions! The Bible mentions the prophets or God before the Quran did; so, IMO, the latter is closer to the time events it records whether they are copies or originals.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Here's the commandments thaat all christians are breaking by worshiping jesus (pbuh):

Thou shalt have none other gods before me
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

(Matthew 15:9):
“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

Men make all doctrines of modern Christianity: the Trinity, Divine Sonship of Jesus, Divinity of Jesus Christ, Original Sin and Atonement.
I am a Christian that believes in the one and only true God as Jesus mentions. The angles are higher than humans and they were commanded to worship Jesus. People worship Jesus in the Bible and Jesus didn't stop them. We don't see Jesus as God's partner or God the Father, but you think that we do associate Him as a partner. We believe He is the Word of God incarnate.

Can your word be your partner? No, it can't. My word cannot be my partner, but it is a very part of my nature, character and essence; I cannot be greater than my word; can I? Can you? But, I could be greater than my word if I had the power to make it a person. I would be greater than that person, but not greater than my word! THE WORD OF GOD IS EQUAL TO GOD. Do you believe what I wrote in caps? Can Allah be greater than his word?

I am a Christian. I do not bow down to statues or serve them. I never did and never will. That is idolatry. "As for me and my house we will serve the Lord" We hold to the same message the prophets spoke of.
I don't take the name of the Lord in vain. You are mixing and matching verses out of context otherwise know as mine quoting to say what you want. Taking the name of the Lord in vain means just that. I hear people cursing saying God this and that and Jesus this and that. I never heard any one say Allah this and that.

Jesus said, "They worship me in vain" You must read that in context. Lets look at it in context: Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules

These are the types of commands of men He is referring to. Jesus also said not all that say to me Lord, Lord will enter into heaven but they that do the will of God. That is not to say that calling Jesus Lord is the problem!


format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
So God has a son named Jesus. and jesus is your subordinate God.
I see that christians believe God has sons named Adam, Jacob, Solomon, Ephraim, Common people, and Jesus.
Yes God has many sons, but Jesus is the unique son of God born of a virgin who never lay with a man. Jesus is according to the Bible Lord of lords, but you have placed him to the level equal with all other prophets and esteem even Muhammad's word over Jesus whom the Bible claims is the Actual Word of God.

Remember the Quran claims that the Scriptures that came before Muhammad was born are not alterable as I have already pointed out to you. So just why are so many Christians converting to Islam? That question hasn't been answered in my heart thus far. I can only think that they never really knew Jesus Christ the way the Bible proclaims Him.
PBUY
:)
Reply

Aprender
01-24-2012, 03:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
So Women are looked at and treated as if they were property, and they are at the subjective mercy of their men based on whether they should be oppressed or not. They are even taught how they are to beat their women to avoid oppressing them. Hmm, how about teaching men not to beat them at all to avoid oppression?
I agree with you. The Prophet Muhammad (saws) never beat a woman but unfortunately some people allow their culture to overtake Islam and they tend to follow the teachings of their culture over the teachings of the prophets, peace be upon them all.

However, women in Islam are not to be looked at as if they are the property of men. This is not true. Nowhere in the Quran will you find a verse that says men are superior beings to women. I don't know if maybe you've read some hadith that say that but sometimes the wrong words are translated from Arabic in those. Trust me, before I converted I ^o) at some of those and asked some who actually spoke Arabic to get a better meaning of those hadith. We know that women in Islam are half of the deen. And spousal abuse is not something that happens only within the Muslim communities but everywhere. Surely you agree that we should be teaching all men to respect women and not to ever lay a hand on them. Please also understand that Muslims are human beings too and we are not in any way perfect and never will be.

Note to my Muslim brothers and sisters who might watch this, the video has music throughout but has Arabic subtitles.

In the video the woman tells us that she married a born-again Christian Iranian man and he tried to control her and keep her in the house and not let her go anywhere. But watching this I do not assume that all Christian men treat their wives in this way. Again, culture getting in the way. We also know that in American culture, it's now become the norm for men to be married and have an affair or two on the side or for Christian men to sleep with women they are not married to. Swinging, having an open marriage, is something else that is on the rise to tone down on divorce for many Christian families here. Again, this is another example of culture getting in the way and people not exactly following Christian teachings but the latest trends. Monogamy is dead they like to say.

"When she is a daughter, she opens a door of Jannah (heaven) for her father. When she is a wife, she completes half of the deen of her husband. When she is a mother, Jannah lies under her feet - If everyone knew the true status of a muslim women in Islaam, even the men would want to be women." [Akram Nadawi]


Yes, I have read the Bible from many different translations and I assure you that even after all of that I am no scholar of Christianity and I wouldn't dare claim to be so as I am a Muslim now. That wouldn't exactly be fair. But what I want you to understand is the definition of a Muslim.

A Muslim is one who gains peace by submitting his or her will to the One God. Not to Muhammad or Jesus peace be upon them both. They were both human beings.

But I have this question for you too. You mentioned those verses that say that Muhammad (pbuh) can't possibly be a messenger because he has the wrong lineage, but what do you have to say about this verse here in Matthew 15:24?

24
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

Now I don't know about you but I am not an Israelite at all. But tell me, I want to know how you personally justify this passage here? I want to know what you think. Christians say that Jesus was sent for all of mankind but his alleged words from the current Bible that we have tell us differently. This is what he said. And if you read that verse further, Jesus (pbuh) allegedly says to the Caananite woman,

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” :omg:OUCH!

Of course we see later on in the story that he went ahead and healed the woman's daughter after she grovelled. But initially he allegedly refused to even help her because she wasn't an Israelite.

The reason why I write allegedly in this is because we really have no way of confirming what Jesus (pbuh) ACTUALLY said in the Bible. We don't have a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of the ORIGINAL today. All we have now are remnants of it with new stories and other fabrications added in. If an entire story was fabricated and words were attributed to Jesus (pbuh) that we KNOW he didn't say, see the story I showed you earlier, then why are you to trust anything else? Someone lied and put words into his mouth. There are even letters attributed to Paul when we know Paul did not write them. They were forgeries. So when you quote the Bible to us and say that "Well in the Bible, Jesus says this." We don't take it because there is no way to confirm what Jesus(pbuh) actually said. And what is taught in the church even conflicts with some of his other statements in the Bible as well.

Did you read that article I showed you about the worlds oldest known Bible? In the article, it states that there are books in the old testament and new testament that we don't have in the current Bible today. And many of the key verses about the Resurrection of Jesus aren't even in the Bible which indicates that they were added in later. Something is not right my brother. You say that the word of God is equal to God but the Bible is not the word of God. Who gave any of these men the authority to change this? Who gave any of these men the authority to make up stories about God's prophet and present them as Gospel truth?

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-06/world/ancient.bible.online_1_codex-sinaiticus-constantine-tischendorf-new-testament?_s=PM:WORLD


The world's oldest known Christian Bible goes online Monday -- but the 1,600-year-old text doesn't match the one you'll find in churches today.


Discovered in a monastery in the Sinai desert in Egypt more than 160 years ago, the handwritten Codex Sinaiticus includes two books that are not part of the official New Testament and at least seven books that are not in the Old Testament.


The New Testament books are in a different order, and include numerous handwritten corrections -- some made as much as 800 years after the texts were written, according to scholars who worked on the project of putting the Bible online. The changes range from the alteration of a single letter to the insertion of whole sentences.


And some familiar -- very important -- passages are missing, including verses dealing with the resurrection of Jesus, they said.


Juan Garces, the British Library project curator, said it should be no surprise that the ancient text is not quite the same as the modern one, since the Bible has developed and changed over the years.


That's scary. Now if that 1,600 year-old Bible that they found was the same as the Bible today then we might be much more inclined to listen to what you quote to us from the Bible. But if there are missing books, important passages missing and inserted sentences, any detective will tell you that's evidence tampering.

I'll have to come back later to see if I can help answer some of your other questions in shaa Allah (God willing). But understand that I am definitely no Muslim scholar as I haven't even been a Muslim for an entire year yet and May Allah make me intelligent as you have said to me earlier. Ameeeeen.

I am still learning about Islam too. There is still so much to learn. I'll see if I can also direct you to send some of your questions to real scholars and other Muslims who are immensely more knowledgeable than me and I pray that Allah swt increases my knowledge in His religion and helps guide us all to the truth. Ameen.

But please read the articles and be honest with yourself about what the others here are trying to tell you and I hope that some of the other brothers and sisters here can aid in answering the questions that I cannot for fear of speaking wrongly about Allah (swt) and his messengers.
Reply

Burninglight
01-24-2012, 04:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Logic has failed you my friend.
The burden is on you that we associate Allah with Muhammad (saw).

I give you a basic example of logic:
I believe priest X is child abuser. I believe Burninglight is a christian.

Does this mean I associate you with child abuser priest X?

Is this not true, Yes or No?
Maybe you're right; logic escapes me.

I don't understand your illustration about preist X, but I would say don't throw rocks if you live in a glass house. Besides, I am not Catholic!

The burden is on me that I should show that you associate Allah with Muhammad. I didn't say that; I said you associate the name of Muhammad with Allah. That is easy to prove. You do it in the Shaadah.
Reply

Abz2000
01-24-2012, 06:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
The burden is on me that I should show that you associate Allah with Muhammad. I didn't say that; I said you associate the name of Muhammad with Allah. That is easy to prove. You do it in the Shaadah.
yes, we associate all prophets (pbut) with God in exactly the same way, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Jacob, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, Solomon, John the babtist, and Jesus peace be upon them all and all others that i did not mention.
we don't associate ANY OF THEM with Godhood or any of His qualities, they were human, and they were chosen and received the duty of proclaiming the message from God to the people
the question is about accepting the latest ambassador and he confirms all others before him,

surely you wont tell the King who sent you the message that you don't like His message because you liked the previous ambassador.Quran 2:136

rejecting john the baptist is rejecting Jesus, rejecting Jesus is rejecting Moses,

"Verily, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allah and His Messengers saying, ‘We believe in some but reject others,’ and wish to adopt a way in between. They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment." (4:150-151)

33. We know indeed the grief which their words cause you : it is not you that they deny, but it is the Signs of Allah that the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers) deny.
34. Verily, (many) Messengers were denied before you , but with patience they bore the denial, and they were hurt, till Our Help reached them, and none can alter the Words (Decisions) of Allah. Surely there has reached you the information (news) about the Messengers (before you).
Quran 6:33-34
Reply

Insaanah
01-24-2012, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Remember the Quran claims that the Scriptures that came before Muhammad was born are not alterable as I have already pointed out to you.
No it doesn't. This is a favourite tactic of the Christian missionary and anti-Islam sites.

They indeed are losers who deny their meeting with Allah until, when the Hour cometh on them suddenly, they cry: Alas for us, that we neglected it! They bear upon their backs their burdens. Ah, evil is that which they bear!
What is the life of this world but play and amusement? But best is the home in the hereafter, for those who are righteous. Will ye not then understand?
We know that you, [O Muhammad], are saddened by what they say. And indeed, they do not call you untruthful, but it is the verses of Allah that the wrongdoers reject.
Verily, (many) Messengers were denied before you (O Muhammad), but with patience they bore the denial, and they were hurt, till Our Help reached them, and none can alter the Words (Decisions) of Allah. And there has certainly come to you some information about the [previous] messengers.
And if their aversion is grievous unto thee, then, if you can, seek a way down into the earth or a ladder unto the sky that you may bring unto them a portent (to convince them all)! - If Allah willed, He could have brought them all together to the guidance - So do not be among the foolish ones. (Translation of Qur'an 6:31-35)

One can see that there is nothing at all here that talks about promising to preserve the previous scriptures. The Arabic word kalimaat has multiple meanings depending on the context, and here, it can be translated to say words or decisions, but even when translated as word, it means words in the context of decisions, as in this verse:

And, verily, Our word has gone forth of old for Our servants, the Messengers. That they verily would be made triumphant. And that Our hosts, they verily would be the victors. (37:171-173)

This refers to His decision that victory in this life and the Hereafter is for His believing servants.The meaning is the same as:

Allah has decreed: "Verily! It is I and My Messengers who shall be the victorious.'' Verily, Allah is All-Powerful, Almighty. (58:21)

On the other hand Allah clearly tells us many times that the previous scriptures have been adulterated:

Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly? (2:75)

...They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. (5:13)

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. (2:79)

So there is no statement at all where Allah promises to preserve the previous scriptures.

As for your assertion that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was told to ask those who read the scriptures if he was in doubt, and why would he have been told to ask this if the said scriptures were corrupted, those who read the scriptures tended to be the just and pious scholars of the people of the book, who knew the scriptures had been changed and knew what the original message had been, and it was expected and known that they would testify that the Message of the Qur'an was indeed the same as that of the scriptures of the former Prophets. The common people did not read the scriptures, but accepted whatever their average scholars told them.

Peace.
Reply

Insaanah
01-24-2012, 06:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I said you associate the name of Muhammad with Allah. That is easy to prove. You do it in the Shaadah.
Oh dear, you're clutching at straws here.

If we said Allah and Muhammad joined together as one word, then the names would be associated.

The translation of the shahaadah, is as follows:

I testify that there is no God but Allah, and I testify that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is His servant and messenger.

We make two testifications, first that we accept Allah as the only God, the Only One worthy of worship, and secondly we then testify that we accept that Muhammad is the final messenger that God sent (as we accept all the other prophets, peace be upon them).

Whatever else you say about that is of your own volition.

Peace.
Reply

Insaanah
01-24-2012, 06:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
So just why are so many Christians converting to Islam? That question hasn't been answered in my heart thus far. I can only think that they never really knew Jesus Christ the way the Bible proclaims Him.
Quite right. They don't know him the way the Bible proclaims him. They don't know him the way Paul (who never met him), Matthew, Mark,, Luke, John, and umpteen other anonymous human authors of the NT proclaim him. They have the privilege, honour and gift of getting to know him as God Himself proclaimed him, as he actually was, nothing more exaggerated than that, and nothing an iota less. That is one of the countless reasons why, which you are currently choosing to close your eyes, mind and heart to.

Peace.
Reply

Burninglight
01-24-2012, 06:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
I agree with you. The Prophet Muhammad (saws) never beat a woman but unfortunately some people allow their culture to overtake Islam and they tend to follow the teachings of their culture over the teachings of the prophets, peace be upon them all.
Thank you for the agreement. My sister, I see Muslims treat their wives better than Christians and I have seen Christians treat their wives better than Muslims. I am not referring to individual cases of treatment. I am concerned about what is built into the religon. Christians are taught to love their wives as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her. We are to lay down of lives for our wives.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
A Muslim is one who gains peace by submitting his or her will to the One God. Not to Muhammad or Jesus peace be upon them both. They were both human beings.
In that case, I am a Muslim.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
I have this question for you too. You mentioned those verses that say that Muhammad (pbuh) can't possibly be a messenger because he has the wrong lineage, but what do you have to say about this verse here in Matthew 15:24?

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

Now I don't know about you but I am not an Israelite at all. But tell me, I want to know how you personally justify this passage here? I want to know what you think. Christians say that Jesus was sent for all of mankind but his alleged words from the current Bible that we have tell us differently. This is what he said. And if you read that verse further, Jesus (pbuh) allegedly says to the Caananite woman,

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” OUCH!
I like the way you write and I enjoy your comments. Ouch is right! But, what was really going on there? I believe Jesus loved that woman no less than anyone. He was showing off the woman's great faith. Jesus was commending that women. Jesus said and did things just to elicit a response and take advantage of a teachable moment like school teachers are supposed to do. Jesus was and is the greatest teacher that ever walked the earth. Notice that the women wasn't rebuked for graveling at His feet as if to worship Him. Any time a person got down on their knees before the apostles, they were rebuke by the apostles. They would tell them "man get up we are men just like you and nothing more." Jesus never stop anyone that called Him "My Lord and my God" nor did He stop any from graveling in worship at His feet like the woman washing His feet with her tears and perfume.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
The reason why I write allegedly in this is because we really have no way of confirming what Jesus (pbuh) ACTUALLY said in the Bible. We don't have a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of the ORIGINAL today. All we have now are remnants of it with new stories and other fabrications added in
Okay, this is all you have to justify your decision against the Bible. To me this is where my faith kicks in. I believe like the Quran says God's word is not alterable whether before Muhammad's time or after. Can you show me where Muhammad said the the Bible is corrupted?

Scholars know the translation errors and fabrications which is known as negligible interpolations such as the woman caught in adultery or the the father, spirit and word they three are one. Written by an over zealous scribe. The word "begotten son" is a poor translation but beloved son is acurate because God said "This is my beloved son"
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Nowhere in the Quran will you find a verse that says men are superior beings to women. I don't know if maybe you've read some hadith that say that but sometimes the wrong words are translated from Arabic in those.
What about the witness of a woman being half that of a man? What does that mean to you?
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
That's scary. Now if that 1,600 year-old Bible that they found was the same as the Bible today then we might be much more inclined to listen to what you quote to us from the Bible. But if there are missing books, important passages missing and inserted sentences, any detective will tell you that's evidence tampering.
Again, I shared many verses from the Quran that state that Allah will not let his word be corrupted or altered. Mistranslation & interpoaltions are not God's word, but we must trust the rest and that Allah is able to keep his word. Isn't that true?

According to what you are saying, Allah is contradicting himself or unable to do what he promised; that is when you compare Bible with the Quran. Who would want to corrupt the message to the extent you claim, and who was to gain from it and what? The apostles risk their lives and lost their lives to preach a tale? Where is the logic in that and why don't you believe what Allah said about the Scriptures that came before Muahmmad that are not alterable? Why would Allah ask Muhammad to refer to corrupted Scriptures?

The Jews have a copy of the OT and so do the Greek Christians. So their exists both the Jews have copies and the Greek have copies that can be compared. These are the same Scriptures Allah referred Muhammad too. The Quran is suppose to confirm these Spiritures but more importantly the older Scriptures should confirn the newer, but they don't explicitly do that and IMO, not even implicitly, but I believe their must be something spoken of about Muhmmad in the Bible, because he turned out to be so great and blesseth; however, I think a prophet is pushing it too far from what we can make of the Scriptures in the Bible. Gen 21:12 tells us Muhammad would be blesseth put not a prophet. There is no evidence that the Torah is corrupted, but only confirmed by Allah to be unalterable so go figure. I am amazed at how powerful Islam has grown and I am convinced it will out grow Christianity especially when Christians who were once like you convert. That is why I started this thread. This Christian still doesn't understand why Christian convert to Islam.
Reply

Insaanah
01-24-2012, 07:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
but the Quran says kill the infidel wherver you find them.
Another anti-islam and missionary tactic.

Islam does not advocate, support, or condone terrorism, illegitimate acts of violence, or the harm of innocent people. Islam promotes peace, and aims for a peaceful society. It does however, permit, and at times requires, Muslims to defend themselves, their family, property, religion, and community, from aggression and oppression. However, peace is the norm, not warfare, which is a last resort. Permission to fight an aggressive enemy is balanced by a strong mandate for making peace. Qur'anic verses underscore that peace should be inclined to whenever and as soon as possible in a situation of conflict.

Sometimes verses are quoted out of context - they refer to the polytheists who had broken treaties with the Prophet and were waging war against the Muslims, so Muslims were instructed to resume combat with them. It was regarding only that specific group, not other polytheists who did not take up arms against the Muslims, nor broke treaties. The Qur'an goes so far as to say that if an enemy asks for protection, this should be granted, then he should be delivered to a place of safety.

This is what those sites will not tell you, neither verses that come before or after, such as "Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors." (2:190) and, "And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know." (9:6)

Peace.
Reply

Abz2000
01-24-2012, 07:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
What about the witness of a woman being half that of men? What does that mean to you?
that is mentioned in the bible itself

This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1

On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

But never put a person to death on the testimony of only one witness. There must always be two or three witnesses.
Deut 17:6

But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
Matthew 18:16

when you put a requirement, you put a minimum, you either say two, or you say three, or you say at least two
two or three clearly implies that there is a difference


it is a fact that even women admit, and can be observed, that women are more emotionally swayed than men,
it is not a bad thing, as these emotions are a naturally required trait for their role as mother,
a mother's instinct is often stronger when the child is in danger etc.
i also come across many different women and it is true that they are generally more sensitive than men.
secondly, women being the physically weaker sex are often dependent on the approval of the stronger sex,
this is also a natural trait and not to be seen as wrong, but there are certain roles for each person.
my dad would mercilessly beat the hell out of us if anyone complained about us,
and my mum would try to protect us and tell my dad the other person was lying - even when she knew it was true
then she'd go mad at the complainant lol.


regarding the alteration of the scripture, the blessed Prophet Jeremiah (pbuh) made it clear that they were tampering with it:

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"

'How can you say, "We are wise because we have the word of the LORD," when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies?

How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
Jeremiah 8:8

Woe, then, to those who write the Book with their hands and then, in order to sell it for a trifling price (such as worldly benefit, status, and renown),
and declare: "This is from God. "
So woe to them for what their hands do write, and woe to them for the gain they make thereby.
Quran 2.79
Reply

Burninglight
01-24-2012, 08:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
that is mentioned in the bible itself
The verses you gave doesn't say the witness of a woman is worth half that of a man. It mentiones nothing of gender
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
it is a fact that even women admit, and can be observed, that women are more emotionally swayed than men,
it is not a bad thing, as these emotions are a naturally required trait for their role as mother,
a mother's instinct is often stronger when the child is in danger etc.
i also come across many different women and it is true that they are generally more sensitive than men.
secondly, women being the physically weaker sex are often dependent on the approval of the stronger sex,
this is also a natural trait and not to be seen as wrong, but there are certain roles for each person.
my dad would mercilessly beat the hell out of us if anyone complained about us,
and my mum would try to protect us and tell my dad the other person was lying - even when she knew it was true
then she'd go mad at the complainant lol.
So for this reason women are discriminated against as being worth half of a man when it comes to their testimony. I have seen women emotionally stronger than men most of my life. In fact, men have more nervous breakdowns then women. I can understand if you say the physical strength of a women is half that of a man, but emotionally they can handle more that man from my experiences. They are as tough as they need to be. if fact, women are even harder then men. If a woman tells me she saw a certain man rob a bank, I would not belief her less than if a man told me, but you would? That is just plan ridiculous.
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
regarding the alteration of the scripture, the blessed Prophet Jeremiah (pbuh) made it clear that they were tampering with it:

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"

'How can you say, "We are wise because we have the word of the LORD," when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies?

How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
Jeremiah 8:8

Woe, then, to those who write the Book with their hands and then, in order to sell it for a trifling price (such as worldly benefit, status, and renown),
and declare: "This is from God. "
So woe to them for what their hands do write, and woe to them for the gain they make thereby.
Quran 2.79
Muhammad is critcizing the people not the Script. and in Jeremiah those who deal falsely with the pen have been exposed and punished. It didn't make it's way into the Bible; otherwise, you won't have verses like that reporting the false prophets and pens. Besides, Allah said his word is unchangaeble and unaltered. He had Muhammad refer to the Scriptures. Why would Allah tell him to go to something he knew was corrupted?

All lying pens have been exposed or you would never know they were there. You have to read in context. Today we have people falsifying the meaning of Scripture and corrupting passages like the Jehovah Witnesses have their Watchtower version of the Bible. They say that the word wasn't God, but changed and added an article to say the word was "a god" that is wrong; it is the word "was God." We know what falsifications have been made they are exposed.

So you believe Allah cannot do what he said He said the Scriptures are not alterable and the Bible says they are established forever in heaven. People try to make changes but they are always exposed and punished by God. Even today there are thousand of cults such as Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons and World Mission Society Church of God, Christian Scientist and so on, but they deceive people but God's word still stands for those who read it and see it truthfully with the help of the comforter the spirit of truth who is in us forever. The spirit of truth is not a man or a book; He is the Spirit that proceeds from God to us that belong to God and are in His grip! Don't tell me man's power to corrupt is stronger than God's power to preserve. I just ain't buying it
Reply

Al-manar
01-24-2012, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Muhammad is critcizing the people not the Script.
Greetings Burninglight

that thread is filled with points ,question one dunno where to begin with .....
anyway I disgaree with many of your input ... let's begin with that


format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Muhammad is critcizing the people not the Script.
I don't think that is accurate ,Actually The Quran criticises both ..

check

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1352035

and

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1352082

and

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1353833


if you disagree with any of the previous ,just quote me , and post it there in the other thread , plz...

Regards
Reply

Insaanah
01-24-2012, 08:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I am looking for the truth
Then open your eyes, for when it is shown to you, the blinders are coming down. You asked a question, and we have given you quite a few out of the many reasons why Christians revert to Islam, but you insist that they are all taking blind leaps of faith. You appear to be in denial, which is a convenient and comfortable position to be in. In Islam, we are encouraged to ponder, consider, and reflect, and it is precisely when people did that, that they saw the truth, and came to God's original and true message.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Besides, Allah said his word is unchangaeble and unaltered. He had Muhammad refer to the Scriptures. Why would Allah tell him to go to something he knew was corrupted?
I see now what is happening here.

I posted explaining the above and clarifying this before my respected brother Abz200's post, here: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1493314
but that has conveniently been ignored, as have other things as Br Ramadhan has said.

That is not the sign of a seeker of truth. We have had many seekers of truth here, many of whom have embraced Islam. Even those who did not, did not adopt your approach. Rather, they asked, I have read xyz about Islam, is this true, or can somebody explain it, and then we clarified their misconceptions for them. Then they could see where Islam was coming from, and learned from it. They didn't insist on ignoring what was said and didn't insist on repeating things that weren't true, things that were their own erroneous misconceptions, despite them having being corrected and clarified.

But you are doing precisely that. I will not spend any further time. I have written reasonably informative and comprehensive posts, as have all my brothers and sisters here. The most important thing, is for God's message to be conveyed to you, which I believe it has, many times over, and in different ways. God is my witness, that you received that message, and chose not to accept it at this time, though I pray that you will consider what has been said, and will accept the truth. If you don't open your eyes, your mind and your heart to it, then you yourself are blocking yourself from seeing and accepting it, and you will bear the consequences of that.

I leave you with a selection from some of the verses pertaining to Jesus (peace be upon him) from the Qur'an:

Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.It befits not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take to Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He says to it only: Be! and it is. [Jesus said], "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path." But different parties began to dispute with one another, so woe to those who disbelieved - from the scene of a tremendous Day. (19:34-37)

And when Jesus brought clear proofs, he said, "I have come to you with wisdom and to make clear to you some of that over which you differ, so fear Allah and obey me. Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. This is a straight path." But the denominations from among them differed [and separated], so woe to those who have wronged from the punishment of a painful Day. (43:63-65)

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorns His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him. (4:171-172)

They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent. (5:17)

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. (5:72)

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they do not desist from so saying, a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

Say, "Do you worship besides Allah that which holds for you no [power of] harm or benefit? Allah it is Who is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower." (5:72-76)

"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary! Did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah"? He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

I said not to them except what You commanded me: "Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when You took me You were the Watcher over them. You are Witness over all things. If You punish them, lo! they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them (lo! they are Your slaves). Lo! You, only You, are the Mighty, the Wise." (5: 116-118)

Praise be to Allah, Who has revealed the Scripture to His slave, and has allowed therein no crookedness:
[He has made it] straight, to warn of severe punishment from Him and to give good tidings to the believers who do righteous deeds that they will have a good reward, In which they will remain forever
And to warn those who say, "Allah has taken a son."
They have no knowledge of it, nor had their fathers. Grave is the word that comes out of their mouths; they speak not except a lie. (18:1-5)

They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant. (19:88-93)

And say: Praise be to Allah, Who has not taken a son, and Who has no partner in the Sovereignty, nor has He any protecting friend through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence. (17:111)

Glorified be your Lord, the Lord of Honour and Power, from what they attribute unto Him!
And peace be upon the messengers.
And praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds! (37:180-182)

Peace.
Reply

Burninglight
01-24-2012, 09:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary! Did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah"? He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
The Quran says try to see if there be any discrepancy. I am seeing them without looking. So as long as I am seeking to be a Muslim, I am seeking truth, but if I try it with questions am not a truth seeker and you have me firgured. Even the Bible tells us to "try the spirits" and not to believe them all.

I am skill having questions about what is true about Islam. If you feel that way, I should stop posting for a while, but I still wonder why so many of my Christian brothers from my faith convert to Islam. If I show reserve about Islam, you have me figured as not a truth seeker. Let me ask you a question. Why would Allah ask Jesus "Did you say to the people 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?'

No where in the Bible does it state that Mary is deity nor did any Biblical Christian say she is God. If Allah had said "Did you say to the people take me and the Holy Spirit besides me as God," this would show some understanding of the trinity. It really bothers me that Allah or Muhammad didn't show a true understanding of what we Christians believe about the tri unity of God.

It seems that Muhammad thought the trinity consisted of the Faher, Mother and the Son. My God would know the difference and woujld have shown what was our true belief, but why didn't the god of the Quran? This along with several other things you say were answered weren't really answers that click with me in my spirit. So for that you have judged me.

I think I will just stop my post for a while and take a breather to see if I can see different. If anyone wants to PM me that is fine, but I am done for now
PBUY and may we all be truth seekers, but keeping in mind when we seek truth, the Devil is always ready to distort our preception
Reply

Abz2000
01-24-2012, 09:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
No where in the Bible does it state that Mary is deity nor did any Biblical Christian say she is God. If Allah had said "Did you say to the people take me and the Holy Spirit besides me as God," this would show some understanding of the trinity. It really bothers me that Allah or Muhammad didn't show a true understanding of what we Christians believe about the tri unity of God.

It seems that Muhammad thought the trinity consisted of the Faher, Mother and the Son. My God would know the difference and woujld have shown what was our true belief, but why didn't the god of the Quran? This along with several other things you say were answered weren't really answers that click with me in my spirit.
catholics don't pray to images of Mary (as) and call her "mother of God"?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?aq=0&oq=prayer+to+ma&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=prayer+to+mary

The Pope prays to Mary and encourages all Catholics to do the same. In his Sunday mass in Denver in Aug.1993 John Paul II entrusted the youth and the entire world under Mary’s protection and guidance.

Can we pray to Mary or other saints as we do to God? Can some person who is at the other end of the universe hear our prayers? Isn't this something that is exclusively reserved to God? How can a saint hear hundreds or thousands of prayers at one time? No matter how great a saint they were, they are not omniscient nor can they answer our prayers (it is a known fact there are more prayers offered to Mary than to God by Catholics). This is seen by the statement by Bishop Liqouri “We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus. She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help” (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, pp. 254, 257).

Rites dedicated to Santa Muerte are similar to Catholic rites, including processions and prayers with the aim of gaining a favor.
Many believers in Santa Muerte are Catholics, who invoke the name of God, Christ and the Virgin in their petitions to Santa Muerte.
Altars contain an image of Santa Muerte, generally surrounded by any or all of the following: cigarettes, flowers, fruit, incense, alcoholic beverages, coins, candies and candles




50. And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.
51. O ye messengers! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness: for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.
Q
uran 23:50-51


Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him.
His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food.
See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!"
Quran 5:75



Who's claiming to worship Mary? Those who reject the Prophets and claim to follow them.
The Quran is not mistaken in saying that The blessed Maryam (upon her be peace) is worshipped besides God,
and it didn't say she was part of the trinity either,
please read the whole of it through for yourself rather than just go to the hate sites,
peace,
Abz





Reply

Marina-Aisha
01-24-2012, 11:51 PM
I dunno why all of u guys trying with this guy, he's not going to see the truth. All we can do is give all the information we can and he can either take it or leave it. U can't force someone to see.
Reply

Perseveranze
01-25-2012, 01:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I am skill having questions about what is true about Islam. If you feel that way, I should stop posting for a while, but I still wonder why so many of my Christian brothers from my faith convert to Islam. If I show reserve about Islam, you have me figured as not a truth seeker. Let me ask you a question. Why would Allah ask Jesus "Did you say to the people 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?'
A truth seeker would've done his research.

Here's a full refutation - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur.../marytrin.html
Reply

Abz2000
01-25-2012, 05:04 AM
i have a feeling he is seeking and is just arguing his misconceptions, and that something has caused him to wonder but the hate sites are really bugging him,
one person is recorded to have said about 'Umar bin Khattab (ra) when told that he may become a Muslim one day:
"the donkey of Al khattab ('umar's father) will become a Muslim before he does",
but by the grace of Allah, just a single moment of reflection changed him, and he became the Caliph, the leader of the believers, and one who's name is mentioned with respect every day.
just a reminder to never give up hope of Allah's guidance,
i really believe he's seeking, and is just a little confused =)
the denial really kicks in near the end before the heart is broken open, it's a common occurrence.
Reply

Aprender
01-25-2012, 05:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
The Quran says try to see if there be any discrepancy. I am seeing them without looking.
I really don't think you understand the severity of what you just said right now in that statement. Astagfirullah. You've never read the Quran. There are no discrepancies in the Quran. You are creating them in your mind by not listening when we're all trying to help you understand. I think it would be good for you to take a break. Everything that we have showed you from the Bible you block your brain and recycle statements that you were taught while growing up. Listen and understand, please. People have tried and tired over and over again to come up with discrepancies in the Quran and when they don't find any, they attack Muhammad (pbuh). You're doing both right now and I am wondering if maybe it is because you don't want to accept it. At the end of the day, there is nothing that we can say to you to make you understand. Your guidance is with Allah swt alone.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
but I still wonder why so many of my Christian brothers from my faith convert to Islam.
We've showed you reversion videos. Stories of people who converted to Islam as well. But you watched them, pushed them aside and said that those people weren't "real" Christians. Alhamdulillah, that they never associated partners with God then. But that's really not a fair judgement of you. That's like you telling someone over the internet about themselves when you never really knew who they were or what they went through in life. Who are you to judge someone's character in that way when they are who they are and know themselves better than you ever could? That's just not fair. That's like me saying to you that you were never a real Catholic. :hmm:

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
No where in the Bible does it state that Mary is deity nor did any Biblical Christian say she is God.
And nowhere in the Bible did Jesus(pbuh) say: Worship me, I am God, the Creator of the universe. But that's exactly what you do. I'm not sure what you mean by Biblical Christian because I don't know many Christians these days who actually follow everything in the Bible.

If we did, women would have to marry the men who rape them.
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

If I was married and had a disobedient son then I would have to let the community stone him to death. I guess many of the children in the marginalized communities of America would be gone then.
Deuteronomy 21
18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Women would actually cover their hair, at least in church.
1 Corinthians 11:6
6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

And don't give me that old testament/new testament talk. If you don't follow the OT anymore then the Bible should just be the NT and leave the OT to the Jews. Instead, Christians suppress much of what either says because it doesn't correlate to current times.

But you cannot deny that the Catholics refer to her as "Mother of God", no? They even make a pilgrimage for her in Mexico. They even make pilgrimage to other saints and pray to them as well in Mexico.



format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
It really bothers me that Allah or Muhammad didn't show a true understanding of what we Christians believe about the tri unity of God.
Astagfirullah again. O Allah please have mercy on us all! Ameeen. When I go out on the streets and ask Christians what the trinity is there will be different answers. I think what you mean is a true understanding of what YOU believe about the trinity. Oh my dear brother please watch what you say about the Lord of the Worlds! Accusing Him of not understanding what people have fabricated about Him and His messengers!? He created you! He knows your every thought. He is the one sustaining your every breath and the very heart beat in your body right now yet you accused Him of not having a true understanding? What!

According to the Athanasian Creed:

“...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity... for there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost is all one... they are not three gods, but one God... the whole three persons are co-eternal and co-equal... he therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity...”

Even the bishop who formulated the doctrine of the trinity admitted that the more he wrote about it, the more he had trouble clearly explaining his own thoughts regarding it. Notice that I said bishop who formulated the doctrine. Not Allah. Not Jesus(pbuh). But a bishop. Man-made. Who gave him the authority to add concepts to your religion? Even Paul didn't preach the trinity.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
This along with several other things you say were answered weren't really answers that click with me in my spirit. So for that you have judged me.
Judging you? All anyone has done here on this thread is try to help you understand what Islam is about and try to clarify what we believe for you to help you understand why some Christians turn to Islam. I do think that you are being a bit stubborn though.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
It seems that Muhammad thought the trinity consisted of the Faher, Mother and the Son.
That is not what that verse says at all and you know it. People pray to and worship Mary (pbuh) like they pray to and worship Jesus (pbuh) besides Allah! You know that. You may not do it but you KNOW that there are people who do. So why are you trying to twist that verse around and make it about the understanding of the trinity when it is CLEARLY talking about the worship of Mary(pbuh) and her son beside the ONE who created them both?


Why do Christians come to Islam?

Maybe because they read their Bibles, saw that it was corrupted, and it didn't register with their spirits so they went on a quest for the truth and found Islam and were attracted to the way it made sense. They were attracted to not finding those contradictions. They loved that it answered the questions that they had about the purpose of life. They were attracted to the pure monotheism and emphasis on good nature that the religion teaches. They were attracted to not being confused and seduced by meaningless metaphors and creative forced interpretations of Bible verses.

Jesus says in the Bible, in no particular order.
Luke 18:19
19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

John 12:49
49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

John 7:16
16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.

Even the people referred to Jesus as a prophet.
Matthew 21:11
11 The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”

He even refers to himself as a Prophet in Matthew 13.
53 When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.”

58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

Though, I doubt you'll agree or understand anything that we've written to you right now and for that I am so sorry that we weren't able to help you but in Islam it is not up to us to guide people to the religion. That is something that Allah (swt) does. If you feel that you need to take a break from the Q&A session you should and read. Give yourself some time to catch up and process all of the information that we've given you. We're just trying to help you break away from the lies and misconceptions that you've been taught about the Islam.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
but keeping in mind when we seek truth, the Devil is always ready to distort our preception
Indeed he is my brother. But with a book that teaches us to love others and speak only the truth. Not to kill others unjustly, not to fornicate, not to oppress others, not to drink, not to gamble, not to deal in interest. A religion that teaches us to love Jesus (pbuh) or we cannot be a Muslim, when we wake up every morning before dawn, before every prayer we seek refuge in Allah from the devil and recite verses from the Quran asking for His protection from the devil before we go to bed at night. I don't see how our perception is distorted.

Those who literally worship Satan are definitely with a distorted perception but to put the Muslim in the category of those people is a great injustice and a great insult to us all.

"The reason is that the Ultimate Truth of Islam stands on solid ground and its unshakeable belief in the Unity of God is above reproach. Due to this, Christians can’t criticize its doctrines directly, but instead fabricate things about Islam that aren’t true so that people lose the desire to learn more."





Reply

Burninglight
01-29-2012, 04:04 AM
I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT GOD IS NOT A BEGETTER NOR IS HE BEGOTTEN. I, HAS A CHRISTIAN AGREE WITH MUSLIMS AND THE QURAN IN THIS AREA AND I AM VERY, VERY MUCH A CHRISTIAN STILL. THIS DOESN'T MEAN I AM CONVERTING OR REVERTING. IT JUST MEANS I AGREE. I WILL STILL KEEP A LOW PROFILE POSTING, BUT I'LL ANSWER PMs
Reply

YusufNoor
01-29-2012, 03:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
No, it is what the Bible says.

and who wrote "The Bible"? i understand that you get your beliefs from the collection of books and letters called "The Bible", but as a former Catholic [if i read you correctly], as i was, you must have spent some time "investigating" your Scriptures. why not spend more time? have you ever read Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard Elliott Friedman?

http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Ri.../dp/0060630353

as far as the NT goes, have you ever pondered the sources? with the possible exception of James, Paul is the earliest Christian writer. as i like to point out, Paul states quite emphatically himself that he preached a different Gospel than either Jesus taught in his ministry or that the apostles taught:

Gal. 1:11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

many assume that Acts is correct and that Paul was taught by the followers of Jesus in Antioch and Jerusalem, but Paul denies this in Galatians. in fact, he implies that he spent 3 years in Arabia being taught personally by Jesus. it appears that Paul is trying to equate his stature with that of the apostles by spending 3 years wit him as they did. piecing together Galatians gives us:

11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.


15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.


[B]18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.


this may appear innocent, but let's look at what Paul writes prior to this:

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!


keep this in mind because Paul really drops a bomb in the 2nd Chapter:

Gal 2:1 Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

why would Paul have to meet "privately" in order to "presented to them the gospel that I preach" IF he is preaching the SAME Gospel? whether to be circumcised or not isn't the Gospel, it would be the Shariah [law] within the Gospel. thus, the earliest written info we have IN the NT is that Paul is claiming to be teaching a Gospel different than what was preached before he converted. therefore the foundation for the NT is NOT the Gospel of Jesus, but a new one preached by Paul who claims to have received it from Jesus. Paul's own words curse either his Gospel or the one preached before him!

There is nothing to link the Quran to the Bible.

nothing? perhaps you missed the references to Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, Solomon, John and Jesus?

The Scriptures and prophets mmust confirm anything new or that comes after right?

using this logic, contemplate this: OT= the Law, Paul's Gospel= NO Law; that's a cancellation and not a confirmation.

Otherwise anyone can claim visions from God like Joseph Smith's heavenly vistations that started the Book of Mormonism. I must draw a line somewhere right?

huge difference between the book of Moron and the Quran is that the Quran was delivered not only in the language of the people it was sent to, but that language itself was [and still is] the most advanced and loftiest form of it. many converted just upon hearing the words as they knew no man could have written it. the bppk of Moron was in an unknown language.

I did say subordinate. That doesn't mean inferior! If your son was never subordinate to you than your son must have been rebellious. Jesus submited to God. My child is subordinate to me but not inferior and no less human than I. God was greater in position, office and function but not in nature, character or essence for Jesus was and is God's WORD! He is the author of my salvation and the finisher of my faith.

my sons are in their 30's. in America, we are equal period. if Jesus was equal to God, how could there be things he didn't know?

Faith is the substance of the things hoped for and evidence of the things not seen. I have faith and God's grace. We are save by God's grace through our faith.

lol, nice to talk with you Sam
:sl:

You seem to me to be a very nice person. So you are not sure how Allah guided you, but you are thankful he did? Am I understanding correctly? This frustrately leaves me back at square one. I see more things about love and peace during the times Jesus walked the earth recorded in the NT than the Quran. For instance, tThe Bible says love your enemies, bless those that curse you, pray for those who despitefully use you, but the Quran says kill the infidel wherver you find them. There are different kinds of Islam: radical and peaceful Muslim like yourself. If I became a Muslim, I would probably be bent of being radical. So how will radical and peaceful Muslim get along?
according to the Bible, Jesus said:

Luke 19:26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’

and also:

Matthew 10:34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—

does any of that sound like peace to you?

by the way, you might want to hear what Islam is really about. this is one of my top 3 lecturers[in many respects, no 1]:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...E&feature=plcp

i not only recommend him, but i challenge you that his style and manner of speaking with cause a cataclysmic change in what you know and think about Islam. so watch...if you dare!

let's see what questions you have after watching a couple of lectures, TRUST ME, you WILL learn something!

:wa:
Reply

YusufNoor
01-29-2012, 06:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
So Muslims do what they accuse us Christians of to a lessor degree by having to mention the name Muhammmad.
I also listen to that clip and the word muhammadim which is used as an adjective meaning all together lovely. Sorry, I will still ask and search, but I am back at square one my sister. I asked you about those three entities and instead of answering my question you admonished me not to look at certain sites. Why is it said that Muhammad gave a prohecy concerinng the three cranes whose intercession is hoped for? Otherwise known as Satanic verses? You tell me the story behind it. Is it true or not?
:sl:

it is rather odd how you misinterpret this. the shahaadah is "la ilaha illallah, muhammadur rasulullah." this means: none [nothing that you worship or deem worthy of worship] is [actually] worthy of worship except for the only One who is worthy of [all of our] worship; in Suratal Fatihah, Allah is called Rabbil Alamin. Rabbil Alamin is sometimes translated as Lord of the World but that is an incomplete translation, it actually more fully means Creator, Provider, Sustainer, Nourisher, Healer, [etc] of ALL that has been created. the One who created me is the same One i will face on Judgment Day. that being said, how do i go about obeying and learning about Him? do i worship Him anyway that pleases me? NO! since God is above and not a part of His creation, i must seek out how He has communicated His Message to us. He does this through Messengers and Prophets, thus in order to truly follow him, we must find these Messengers and Prophets and see how they have relayed to to us information on Who God is and how to obey/worship Him. ANY OTHER WAY WOULD BE A WAY CREATED BY MAN. so we must find a Messenger/Prophet and follow what he instructs us in. muhammadur rasulullah merely identifies the Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, as the Messenger that we follow. a true follower of Noah, pbuh, would in fact be one who proclaims, la ilaha illallah, Nuh [Noah] rasulullah. this simply means that they accept what Message Noah, pbuh, has relayed concerning God. you are one claiming la ilaha illalla Isa ibn Marriam [Jesus] rasulullah. you claim that you believe in God, but only as you deem that Jesus, pbuh, has instructed. you don't follow Moses,pbuh, or Elijah,pbuh, do you? no, as a rejector of Catholicism, you have studied to find out best how to follow Jesus. is that not true?

here's a good video:



your other statements concerning "Satanic Verses" is unclear. Arabs were mainly polytheists who associated partners with Allah, but they believed that Allah is the creator. don't know what 3 cranes you are talking about.

:wa:
Reply

YusufNoor
01-29-2012, 09:40 PM
:sl:

this might help, i don't know. Dr Bilal Philips is also one of my top 3 lecturers:



:wa:
Reply

YusufNoor
01-30-2012, 12:53 PM
:sl:

responding to the "crane" issue:

"Those Are The High Flying Claims"



M S M Saifullah, Qasim Iqbal, Mansur Ahmed & Muhammad Ghoniem






1. Introduction

Claims of a Christian missionary concerning the so-called 'Satanic verses'. The gist of the missionary's argument is in the last paragraph, which we have divided into various points for the sake of refutation:
But, to repeat, Rushdie did not originate the satanic verses. Nor did Jews, Christians or other non-Muslims. The sources for the satanic verses, at-Tabari and Ibn Sa'd, are reputable Muslim sources for early Quranic commentary and Islamic history. Muslims today who simply dismiss the account of these writers as fabricated and unhistorical must at least answer the question why such reputable persons would fabricate it. The question is not new. But, it seems, a serious Muslim response is hard to find.
We agree that Salman Rushdie did not originate the so-called 'Satanic' verses. In the Islamic sources the whole saga is known as Hadith al-Gharaniq al-cUla; therefore neither are the Islamic sources responsible for such a theatrical title. Who then coined the term 'Satanic verses'? As the tradition of defamation against Islam demonstrates, it could only have been Christian missionaries. Indeed, it was an English missionary, the belligerent Sir William Muir, who fashioned the term 'Satanic verses'.[1]
The word Maometis means The number of the beast, i.e., 666, by which Muhammad(P) was known in the Middle Ages. The names Mahoun and Mahound refer to Muhammad(P), imagined by credulous Europeans to be a pagan God. These derogatory names were concocted by "love-thy-neighbor", "turn-thy-cheek" Christians who maintained an open policy of defamation against Islam and Muhammad(P) throughout the Middle Ages. Apparently, this policy still exists today, though in a more sophisticated apparatus.
Now let us address the statements from the Christian missionary:
The sources for the satanic verses, at-Tabari and Ibn Sa'd, are reputable Muslim sources for early Quranic commentary and Islamic history.
Where do Ibn Jarir al-Tabari (d. 310/923) and Ibn Sa'd claim to be the sources of the so-called 'Satanic verses'? It is precisely the opposite. They have only transmitted the story as it was transmitted to them. Al-Tabari mentions the so-called 'Satanic verses' story[2] in his Tarikh as well as an important set of statements in the introduction of his book, which states:

Let him who examines this book of mine know that I have relied, as regards everything I mention therein which I stipulate to be described by me, solely upon what has been transmitted to me by way of reports which I cite therein and traditions which I ascribe to their narrators, to the exclusion of what may be apprehended by rational argument or deduced by the human mind, except in very few cases. This is because knowledge of the reports of men of the past and of contemporaneous views of men of the present do not reach the one who has not witnessed them nor lived in their times except through the accounts of reporters and the transmission of transmitters, to the exclusion of rational deduction and mental inference. Hence, if I mention in this book a report about some men of the past, which the reader of listener finds objectionable or worthy of censure because he can see no aspect of truth nor any factual substance therein, let him know that this is not to be attributed to us but to those who transmitted it to us and we have merely passed this on as it has been passed on to us.[3]
Thus, al-Tabari faithfully displayed these accounts in the exact manner through which he received them. Can he then be held liable if any objectionable accounts should arise? To translate this into laymen's terms, al-Tabari has simply refused accountability by avoiding the task of historical criticism. Therefore, any spurious accounts are not to be attributed to him.
This would not be difficult to understand, given the fact that the so-called 'Satanic verses' were transmitted from al-Waqidi to Ibn Sa'd. Ibn Sa'd (d. 230/845), who was the secretary of al-Waqidi (d. 207/823), also assumed the role of a mere transmitter by citing the text and its isnad. Concerning the two historians, al-Waqidi and Ibn Sa'd, the contemporary scholar, Tarif Khalidi, says:
For it is clear that Waqidi is in fact the senior partner. Ibn Sa'd, known of course as 'katib al-Waqidi', was a secretary-editor of his master and of the materials he had assembled and then amplified.[4]
In other words, neither al-Waqidi nor Ibn Sa'd were eye-witnesses to the revelation of 'Satanic verses'; they were simply the transmitters.
It is also worthwhile to mention that:
... Waqidi was attacked for loose isnad usage by strict practitioners of Hadith...[5]
Claiming that the issue of so-called 'Satanic verses' incident is true just because al-Tabari or Ibn Sa'd mentioned them amounts to a deliberate distortion of the facts.
Now we will address the issue of why Muslims today simply dismiss the account mentioned by these two writers. To begin with, Muslims exegetes in the past have dismissed these accounts, too. This is not something new. Michael Fischer and Mehdi Abedi, writing on the issue of Salman Rushdie's novel The Satanic Verses as well as the Islamic account of the so-called 'Satanic' verses, say (and notice their curious argument):
The story that Muhammad could have used the Satanic suggestion is rejected by almost all exegetes, but the fact that the story persists as a subject of exegetes' discussions is testimony to the reality of the temptation both for Muhammad and for later Muslims in their own struggles with such "Babylons" as London, New York, Paris, or Hamburg.[6]
Since the story is rejected by almost all the exegetes, are the Muslims not justified in dismissing the account related to the so-called 'Satanic verses'?
One is also tempted to add the research done by Orientalists like John Burton, who instead of parroting Muir and Watt, concluded with an original argument:
There existed therefore a compelling theoretical motive for the invention of these infamous hadiths. If it be felt that this has now been demonstrated, there should be no further difficulty in suggesting that those hadiths have no historical basis.[7]
From here, let us move on to the Muslim argument against the so-called 'Satanic' verses.
2. 'Satanic' Verses & The Muslim Argument

In this section, we will examine the Christian missionary's complaint:
But, it seems, a serious Muslim response is hard to find.
One really wonders if this missionary has even read any literature, both modern as well as old, on this subject. We have seen above that according to Michael Fischer and Mehdi Abedi almost all the Islamic exegetes have rejected the story of so-called 'Satanic' verses. They have not just rejected it without giving their reasons! In the modern literature, there is a copious amount of work done by Muslims dealing with the 'Satanic verses'. Notable among them are the two books of Abu A'la Mawdudi Tahfim al-Qur'an (1972) and Sirat-i Sarwar-i 'Alam (1979), which critically examines all the aspects of the story and evaluates the writings of early Muslim scholars on this subject quite thoroughly. One is also tempted to mention the works of Sayyid Qutb (Fi Zilal al-Qur'an) and M. H. Haykal (The Life Of Muhammad). Zakaria Bashier, in his book, The Makkan Crucible, deals with the issue quite thoroughly.[8] Also mentioned in Appendix 2 in his book is an article The 'Satanic' Verses And The Orientalists (A Note On The Authenticity Of The So-Called Satanic Verses).[9] This is a revised version of the article that was published in the journal, Hamdard Islamicus. We reproduce the article below with minor modifications.
Al-Tabari, Ibn Sa'd and some other Muslim writers have mentioned (though they vary considerably in the matters of detail) that Prophet Muhammad(P), under Satanic inspiration added two verses to Surah an-Najm [53], which are as follows:
These are the high-flying ones, whose intercession is to be hoped for!
The Prophet(P), it is alleged, recited these along with other verses of Surah an-Najm in the prayer. The idolators of Makkah who were present in the Ka'bah at that time joined him in the prayer because he praised their deities and thus won their hearts. The story afterwards reached Abyssinia where the Muslims, persecuted by the Makkan infidels, had earlier migrated and many of them returned to Makkah under the impression that the disbelievers no longer opposed the Prophet(P) and the Islamic movement. The story also says that the angel Gabriel came to the Prophet(P) the same evening and told him about the mistake he had committed by reciting verses which were never revealed to him. This naturally worried the Prophet(P) and made him apprehensive. 'Admonishing' the Prophet(P), God revealed the following verses of Surah al-Isra' which read:
And their purpose was to tempt thee away from that which We had revealed unto thee, to substitute in our name something quite different; (in that case), behold! they would certainly have made thee (their) friend! And had We not given thee strength, thou wouldst nearly have inclined to them a little. In that case We should have made thee taste an equal portion (of punishment) in this life, and an equal portion in death: and moreover thou wouldst have found none to help thee against Us! [Qur'an 17:73-75]
This made the Prophet(P) feel very guilty until God revealed the following consoling verse of Surah al-Hajj:
Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom. [Qur'an 22:52]
This is the gist of the story mentioned by al-Tabari and some other writers that has been used by the Christian missionaries. The story would, among other things, imply that the Prophet(P) and his Companions(R) took the 'Satanic' verses as a true revelation from God, otherwise nobody would have accepted them.
Let us now examine the story and its contents in the light of internal and external evidence and evaluate it on the basis of criteria of historical criticism. In doing so, first of all one has to find out the chronological sequence in the story and establish whether or not all its details relate to one period and are interconnected. Special attention should be devoted to determining the periods of revelation of the three verses mentioned in the report, which will validate or falsify the episode.
It can easily be gleaned from the story that the incident of reciting the 'Satanic' verses and the consequent prostration of the disbelievers in the Ka'bah happened after the first batch of Muslims had migrated to Abyssinia. This migration, according to all the reliable sources, occurred in the month of Rajab of the fifth year of the Prophetic call or about eight years before the Hijrah to Madinah. Therefore, the incident must have happened close to this date and not long after the migration to Abyssinia.
The verses of Surah al-Isra' (17:73-5) which were revealed, according to the story, to 'admonish' the Prophet(P) for allegedly reciting the 'Satanic' verses, in fact were not revealed until after the event of the Mi'raj. The Mi'raj or the Ascent of the Prophet(P), according to historical sources, occurred in the tenth or eleventh year of the Prophetic call, i.e., two or three years before the Hijrah to Madinah. If this is so, then it implies that the 'Satanic' verses were not detected or for some reason no mention was made about the alleged interpolation of the verses for five or six years and only afterwards was the Prophet(P) admonished for it. Can any sensible person believe that the interpolation occurs today, while the admonition takes place six years later and the abrogation of the interpolated verses is publicly announced after nine years. The relevant verse of Surah al-Hajj (22:52) according to the commentators of the Qur'an was revealed in the first year of Hijrah, i.e., about eight to nine years after the incident and about two and a half years after the so-called admonition of the Prophet(P) (17:73-5). Can anybody who knows about the Qur'an, its history and revelation, understand and explain how the incident of interpolation was allowed to be tolerated for six years and also why the offensive 'verses' were not abrogated until after nine years?
The implication of this argument is that since the abrogating verses were revealed nine years after the original event, that would mean that for nine years Muslims had been asking Lat, Manat and Uzza for intercession! In other words outright idolatry resulting from compromised monotheistic beliefs. It is therefore quite pretentious to suggest any historicity in the notion that Muslims had been asking Lat, Manat and Uzza for intercession over the span of almost a decade.
Watt's theory is that
... the earliest versions do not specify how long afterwards this (abrogation) happened; the probability is that it was weeks or even months.[10]
is nothing but a hypothesis. Had he investigated the chronology of the three revelations relative to the story, he could not possibly have missed the facts related above.
Let us now turn to some internal evidence. It has been said in the story that the 'Satanic' interpolation occurred in Surah an-Najm (53:19) which delighted the idolators present in the Ka'bah and as a gesture of friendship and good-will, they all bowed down with the Prophet(P). In order to comment on the story it would seem necessary to read the verses in the Qur'an, adding the alleged 'Satanic' verses, and find out what is actually meant to be conveyed here. It would read as follows.
Have ye seen Lat and 'Uzza, And another, the third (goddess), Manat? [These are the high-flying ones, whose intercession is to be hoped for!] What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female? Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair! hese are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord! [Qur'an 53:19-23]
If one reads the bold part of the alleged Satanic verses quoted above, one fails to understand how God on the one hand is praising the deities and on the other hand discrediting them by using the subsequent phrases quoted above. It is also difficult to see how the Quraysh leaders drew the conclusion from this chapter that Muhammad(P) as making a conciliatory move and was adopting a policy of give and take.
Drawing the conclusions from various reports connected with the story, Watt suggests that
... at one time Muhammad must have publicly recited the Satanic verses as part of the Qur'an; it is unthinkable that the story could have been invented later by Muslims or foisted upon them by non-Muslims. Secondly, at some later time Muhammad announced that these verses were not really part of the Qur'an and should be replaced by others of a vastly different import.[11]
Watt's suggestion that Muhammad(P) replaced the 'Satanic' verses with some others of a vastly different import is pure speculation. If one takes the 'Satanic' verses to be true, it would imply that the verses to be found in 53:19f. were not revealed in the same period. Watt's suggestion also implies that Muhammad(P) and his followers read the 'Satanic' verses in place of or in addition to the verses found in the Qur'an for 'weeks and even months' and that when Muhammad(P) later realized that these verses could not be correct, then the true version and continuation of the passage was revealed to him. This supposition is again pure speculation and is not based on any historical data. The story which we have summarized in the beginning suggests that Muhammad(P) did not realize his fault until God admonished him six years later and that the matter was rectified perhaps another two and a half years after. In the meantime the Muslims were supposedly asking Allat, Manat and Uzza for intercession! Had the genuine state of affairs truly been this ridiculous, it would have been impossible for Muhammad(P) to have maintained such a loyal following.
It is obvious that Watt and other Orientalists accept part of the story and reject the related parts along with their destructive implications, apparently because they are unable to find any link or sequence. Had there been any element of truth in the story, it could have caused a great scandal against Islam and the Prophet(P) and every detail of this scandal must have found its place in the hadith literature. Why is the authentic hadith collection conspicuously silent about the scandalous part of the story? Does it not lead to the conclusion, contrary to the established fact, that hadith literature itself is very defective as it failed to record such an important event which led the Prophet(P) and his Companions(R) to read 'Satanic' verses for weeks, months or perhaps even years without realizing the error, all the while asking for the intercession of Lat, Manat and Uzza? In fact, al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Nasa'i and Ahmad b. Hanbal all record the story, but only to the extent that was true. They all mention that the Prophet(P) did recite Surah an-Najm and that, at the end when he prostrated, the idolaters present were so overawed that they also joined him in prostration. These leading Muhaddithun do not mention the blasphemous story which other sources have recorded.
3. Conclusions

It is quite clear that the nature of the story is absurd and it cannot stand the external and internal criticism. It is even clearer from the Qur'an that it is not possible for the Prophet(P) to accept anything in the Qur'an from any external source. If this is so, then how can one take seriously, let alone believe in the so-called story of the 'Satanic' revelation? This is why the leading traditionalists and the exegetes in Islam have regarded this story as malicious and without foundation.
It is unfortunate that an eminent historian like al-Tabari mentioned this story in his Tarikh al-Umam wal-Muluk and did not make any comment on its authenticity except to mention that he had faithfully transmitted whatever he received. Although there is great advantage in such a methodology (See reference 2 above) there are also risks. Unscrupulous people, i.e., the Christian missionaries, may take advantage of this and try to concoct something as they indeed did in the fabrication of the malicious story of the 'Satanic' verses.
The fact that al-Tabari, Ibn Sa'd and others have recorded this story in their works does not prove that the story itself is true. The missionary entertains a challenge to the Muslims:
Muslims today who simply dismiss the account of these writers as fabricated and unhistorical must at least answer the question why such reputable persons would fabricate it. The question is not new. But, it seems, a serious Muslim response is hard to find.
What the fellow is desperately pleading for is the source of the story. We have already witnessed that neither al-Tabari nor Ibn Sa'd is responsible for producing these stories. While the missionary himself conveniently attributes the accounts of al-Tabari and Ibn Sa'd with historical legitimacy, at least with regards to this particular incident, he is directing a sort of challenge to the Muslims who reject the historicity of the account. Thus, if the Muslims, not to mention Orientalists, dismiss the story as having no historical basis, then the missionary demands to know where the story came from, i.e. who is the individual responsible for concocting such an outlandish story. Somehow, he feels as though this is an uncomfortable question. However, an answer to this silly challenge is, what does it matter what the source is of such an absurd rumour? Rumours with even the most powerful effects of credulity have rarely seen their source discovered. Yet, we are not aware of any Muslims that actually believe the aforementioned story, and this position is cogently justified on the grounds of rigorous historical criticism. However, episodes of fabulous rumors followed by a credulous following are quite common outside the history of Islam. For example, it was rumoured that Jesus(P) traveled to India. It was rumoured that St. Matthew actually wrote the Gospel According to St. Matthew. It was rumoured that Islamic fundamentalists were responsible for the Oklahoma bombing. It was rumoured that UFOs visited Roswell, New Mexico. However, just because we do not know the individuals responsible for these rumours, does this mean that the rumours are true? Is the absence of an identified source of these rumours supposed to be construed as some sort of threat? The naïve implications of this method of inquiry should bring shame upon anybody who entertains them.
Finally, in light of the above, it can quite effortlessly be concluded that the Christian missionaries' attempt to answer to the inimitability of the Qur'an, by building upon the poor scholarship of a fellow missionary, is thus nothing other than a product of gross ignorance and sheer tomfoolery.
And Allah knows best!

source:

http://forum.urduworld.com/f50/refut...60uzza-328968/

:wa:
Reply

Scimitar
01-31-2012, 07:56 PM
"Many Christians are converting to Islam"


Well, after watching this video, I'm really starting to see why:



Knock yourselves out - don't forget the popcorn and fizzy drink.

Scimi
Reply

Txyib
01-31-2012, 08:43 PM
salam
wow i am so amazed by this video,even the man himself doesnt know what he is talking about and the phone person is really challenging him and the jesus chatline guy is really getting ashamed.
wasalam
محمد طيب
Reply

Marina-Aisha
01-31-2012, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tayib786
salam
wow i am so amazed by this video,even the man himself doesnt know what he is talking about and the phone person is really challenging him and the jesus chatline guy is really getting ashamed.
wasalam
محمد طيب
It's embarrassing, the guy doesn't have the answer to any of the questions lol
Reply

Txyib
01-31-2012, 09:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by marina28
It's embarrassing, the guy doesn't have the answer to any of the questions lol
salam
i know right and did you see when that bald type guy cut him off and didnt want him speaking he said aah u cant be trusted and they kept mumbling.the person with the long hair made himself look like a fool
wasalam
محمد طيب
Reply

YusufNoor
02-01-2012, 01:10 AM
:sl:

you know, i started to watch the video, but...

1) the Jews did NOT kill Jesus in the Bible, the Romans did. yes, the Jews put them up to it, but it was the Romans.

2) the caller made a racist remark by referring to the Jews as "those big-nose Jews".

if you find that entertaining...

:wa:
Reply

Galaxy
02-01-2012, 02:11 AM
:sl:
I think that video is fake
Reply

Burninglight
02-01-2012, 02:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Galaxy
I think that video is fake
lol, I agree. It’s a satire on Christianity. Shame on him!
Reply

Scimitar
02-01-2012, 02:50 AM
its not a fake. this is a real thing. And yeah, they even release new "versions" of bibles like hollywood release sequels lol.

Scimi
Reply

Burninglight
02-01-2012, 03:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
its not a fake. this is a real thing. And yeah, they even release new "versions" of bibles like hollywood release sequels lol.

Scimi
Richard said "Peter, Paul and Mary" wrote the Bible and that "you should stone your mother if the Bible says that", and you believe he's serious? Richard is probably an atheist. He doesn't know the Bible or the spirit of it.
Reply

Abz2000
02-01-2012, 03:48 AM
lol, those of you who didn't know, this guy is actually serious, here's his commercial:




u may like this too lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYLG1...eature=related
Reply

Burninglight
02-01-2012, 04:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
lol, those of you who didn't know, this guy is actually serious, here's his commercial:
Okay, if he is serious, I don't take him seriously, and I am a Christian. I actually find him a hindance by playing a Bible answer man who doesn't really know the Bible. IMO, he is one confused dude, and it is painful to watch if it weren't a satire. I still think it is a very elaborate set up to get people to disparage the Bible. The Devil is tricky. He the father of all lies. He is in fact the best of all liars!
Reply

Scimitar
02-01-2012, 05:05 AM
Oh he's not only playing the "bible answer man" - he's actually got his own version of the bible which he claims is the truth.

In all fairness, what would you rather follow:

1) One faith that has many different books that have been manipulated, changed and translated into a variety of languages (further confusing root associations of ancient languages such as Aramaic and Hebrew) and all claim to be the original scripture ? yet they all differ on key core points of belief?

2) One faith, which only has ONE book, that has NEVER ever changed even a letter in it's original Arabic?

Which one seems more authentic on this point alone bro?

You don't need to answer that, we all know and think the same on this - no matter what religion you hail from. Authenticity is authenticity. Simple. The point I was making when I wrote:

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Well, after watching this video, I'm really starting to see why:
- is, this farce that Richard Burnish has propagated on TV no less has just earnt Christianity even more disrepute in modern day. People want something real, historically accurate - they want to believe, but they don't want to be hoodwinked, and in this situation, the Quran most definitely presents itself as the best option, bar none!

Now, if someone actually picked up a Quran and attempted to actually "read" it and put all bias aside (let's face it, people have been indoctrinated and conditioned to hate Islam) what they will find is that they are being shown "truth" and this truth is something that just cannot be denied... and this is why so many Christians are turning to Islam. This is what I believe.

Scimi
Reply

YusufNoor
02-01-2012, 06:01 AM
:sl:

the boy in the vid appears to be just a boy trying to increase his harem. nothing else. he's no Bible scholar at all. he's a fool. i know the Bible better than he does. [and i'm no scholar]

i understand the excitement some Muslims feel when they see something like this, but it isn't what it appears. the boy got punked and it didn't take much. it was sadder to hear the caller betray his own ignorance. when you match wits with a fool, it's rather easy to prove yourself an equal.

the majority of Christians don't understand the trinity, and few could explain it so that you could understand it [OK, none, but...]. that's why folks like burninglight can only make accusations and refuse to answer our questions. those that do know the answers, can't honestly say them. they fear the answers. when it comes to the the New Testament, only the author of 7 of the letters of Paul are certain. [James wrote James, but no-one knows what James...] hardly a solid bedrock to base your eternal salvation on. but much like the pagan Quraysh of Mecca, they believe what they were taught by their "fathers." they really don't know what the majority of scholars say about their scriptures. alot of their leaders do, but they are afraid to let their "sheep" know.

we have the truth and our evidence kicks theirs right in the booty. we just need to get them to discuss it. burningbright's evidence in the other thread for Hebrews and Acts being true is...Timothy! well the vast majority of non-evangelical or non-conservative Christians scholars are dead certain that the 3 Pastoral letters, I & II Timothy and Titus were definitely NOT written by Paul; no one knows who wrote them! yet Timothy is the "proof" that the others are true! it wouldn't be polite to laugh...so i won't.

:wa:
Reply

Scimitar
02-01-2012, 06:23 AM
@ Bro BurningLight - why do you think more and more Christians are turning to Islam in the west, than any other religion?

Why do you think Islam is fastest growing religion in the world, and the most practised one too?

Scimi
Reply

Abz2000
02-01-2012, 06:43 AM
burninglight, please watch this through with an open mind rather than fighting yourself, you may have a chance to consider:

Reply

Paprika
02-01-2012, 06:46 AM
It's strange how christians can see the beauty of Islam but muslims need to be convinced....
Reply

yahia12
02-01-2012, 08:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
It's strange how christians can see the beauty of Islam but muslims need to be convinced....
You Are Absolutely Right! :D
Reply

Burninglight
02-01-2012, 03:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
It's strange how christians can see the beauty of Islam but muslims need to be convinced....
Please explain
Reply

Burninglight
02-01-2012, 04:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
@ Bro BurningLight - why do you think more and more Christians are turning to Islam in the west, than any other religion?

Why do you think Islam is fastest growing religion in the world, and the most practised one too?

Scimi
IMO, There is a very, very power spiritual force behind Islam and most Christians are weak in their faith and don't know the Lord; Most are not rooted and grounded in the love of Christ. Islam is powerful, because it is fathered by the seed of Ishmael who was for the sake of Abraham promised blessing and power down through his bloodline. I believe Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael.
But one must never mistaken growth and power for the Love of Truth. Jesus who is the descendant of Isaac & Jacob the child of promise said; "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" He didn't say "I show the way" like all other prophets before Him or after. He came unto His own, but they rejected Him, but as many as receive Him to them gave He the power to become sons of God even to those that believe on His name. He is the only prophet in history that had & has the power to make us sons of God. He came for Israel, but He was & is meant for the world, because it is His-story. This is what the Scriptures speak of before Muhammad was born.
Reply

Abz2000
02-01-2012, 07:07 PM
wow, u just reeled off a memorized drill,
none of it was based on a reasonable argument, just a statement with no backup,
may God guide you, i know you are a seeker, but the conditioning is almost mechanical,
peace
Reply

Burninglight
02-01-2012, 08:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
wow, u just reeled off a memorized drill,
none of it was based on a reasonable argument, just a statement with no backup,
may God guide you, i know you are a seeker, but the conditioning is almost mechanical,
peace
I am sorry, I don't follow if you're referring to me.
Reply

Abz2000
02-01-2012, 11:09 PM
how many sons has God got in your opinion?
and which ones are "only begotten"?
and how (astaghfirullah) do you assume He begot?
and if He didn't beget and it's only metaphorical, why distinguish it from the others? (begotten wouldn't then mean begotten - then y say it?)
and if he's the "only begotten son", he must be different from the rest,
and he can't be eternal as begetting requires that one exists b4 the other,
unless one begets oneself - which would really mean anything.

51. O ye Messengers! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness: for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.
52. And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood, and I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and no other).
53. But people have cut off their affair (of unity), between them, into sects: each party rejoices in that which is with itself.
54. But leave them in their confused ignorance for a time.
55. Do they think that because We have granted them abundance of wealth and sons,
56. We would hasten them on in every good? Nay, they do not understand.
57. Verily those who live in awe for fear of their Lord;
58. Those who believe in the Signs of their Lord;
59. Those who join not (in worship) partners with their Lord;
60. And those who dispense their charity with their hearts full of fear, because they will return to their Lord;-
61. It is these who hasten in every good work, and these who are foremost in them.
Quran Chapter 23

Reply

Burninglight
02-01-2012, 11:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
how many sons has God got in your opinion?
and which ones are "only begotten"?
and how (astaghfirullah) do you assume He begot?
and if He didn't beget and it's only metaphorical, why distinguish it from the others? (begotten wouldn't then mean begotten - then y say it?)
and if he's the "only begotten son", he must be different from the rest,
and he can't be eternal as begetting requires that one exists b4 the other,
unless one begets oneself - which would really mean anything.
God is father of all His creation in the general sense, but in another sense He is not. for Satan has his children. so we are all God's creation but we are not all His children.

It is the father (God) that calls Jesus His "beloved Son" "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased hear ye Him" God didn't say "my begotten son" He said, "beloved Son." In other words, this speaks of the uniqueness of Christ's Sonship especially since he had no earthly father with the exception of Joseph who didn't beget Jesus, but God did through the Holy Spirit as a miraclous Immaculate Conception without the intervention of sexual intercourse. Adam was created without a mother but his father was God, but unlike Jesus who always existed as God's word. That is why Jesus is considerd the last Adam. The first Adam screwed things up for mankind, but the last Adam reconciles us to God.
Reply

Abz2000
02-02-2012, 05:08 AM
So u admit that this is a lie written by men?

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate.

That was from the nicene creed.



Here's what the Quran tells us:



Can you then expect that they would believe in you, while decidedly a party of them used to hear the word of Allah, then they altered it after they had understood it, while they were knowing?
Quran 2:75
Reply

Burninglight
02-02-2012, 06:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
So u admit that this is a lie written by men?
I do admit that the Nicene Creed is not in the Bible. So, I don't have to accept it; do I? Jesus never said, "I am God" BUT, He does allude to His deity; so every person must decide what to do with Christ and come to there own conclusion of who He really is. The Bible says knowing Him is eternal life. AND Jesus said, "I am the life..." We are all free to make our choices, but we are not free from the consequences of them
Reply

Abz2000
02-02-2012, 04:06 PM
can you ponder on this verse for a while?
you may really want to take some time out just to think about it.

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him,
Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18And Jesus said unto him,
Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mark 10:17-18

what is Jesus (pbuh) saying here?
Is he not first attributing all good qualities to God,
and then making a clear distinction between himself and God?

and here, the bible records that he returns to give just ONE urgent message, nothing else.
16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
John 20:16-18

what is the significance of this?
why return just to pass on this message?
was it not to clarify a misconception which he knew would occur after him?
notice how mine and yours is repeated TWICE.
Reply

Burninglight
02-03-2012, 01:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him,
Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18And Jesus said unto him,
Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mark 10:17-18

what is Jesus (pbuh) saying here?
Is he not first attributing all good qualities to God,
and then making a clear distinction between himself and God?
yes, He was attributing good to God, but that is not the purpose he said that. Jesus was speaking to the young rich ruler rhetorically. The young man knew Jesus was special, but by calling Jesus good he was inadvertanly calling Him God, because only God is good. Jesus was trying to get him to realize what he was actually saying. Jesus was by no means denying He was good. Jesus wanted people to realize who He was without telling them. Jesus asked His apostles "Who do they say I am"; then, Jesus asked, "Who do you say I am?" Peter said, "You are the Christ the son of the living God" Jesus blessed Peter saying "God showed you that from heaven." If the young rich ruler had said "but you are good; good master you have come down from heaven" Jesus would have blessed him like He did Peter. You err in your understanding of Scripture.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
and here, the bible records that he returns to give just ONE urgent message, nothing else.
16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
John 20:16-18
what is the significance of this?
Jesus was telling her not to get used to Him staying; that is what He meant by don't touch me
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
why return just to pass on this message?
was it not to clarify a misconception which he knew would occur after him?
notice how mine and yours is repeated TWICE. Like
Jesus calls God father. If he calls God father what does that make Him? If you search the Scriptures you will see that God the father not only calls Jesus His "Beloved Son" He also calls Him "God." From the Bible you'll never be able to argue and win that Jesus is not the Son of God; hence, He is deity! Notice that I didn't say partner or associate those terms do not exists in the Bible; It is an Islamic invention as pertains to Christanity and faulty for we the people of the Book know that God is one!
Reply

Abz2000
02-03-2012, 04:58 AM
Check how many times "son of man" is repeated throughout the book and you will come to see that He would use it to lovingly refer to the sons of Adam (pbuh).
God is not man
also check how many times the word son of God is used to refer to the prophets of the OT,
peace,
g'night
Reply

Burninglight
02-03-2012, 05:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
Check how many times "son of man" is repeated throughout the book and you will come to see that He would use it to lovingly refer to the sons of Adam (pbuh).
God is not man
also check how many times the word son of God is used to refer to the prophets of the OT,
peace,
g'night
One thing the Catholics say I agree with. Jesus is true man from true man and true God from true God. I listen the Bart Ehrman debate; it seems to me that Dr. Evans pawned him. Ehrman states: "And here is the truth: Many of the books of the New Testament were written by people who lied about their identity, claiming to be a famous apostle — Peter, Paul or James — knowing full well they were someone else. In modern parlance, that is a lie, and a book written by someone who lies about his identity is a forgery."

This begs the question: “here is the truth.” I’m sorry, but extreme assertions like these require extreme evidence as proof that they are true. Yet Ehrman does not even try to offer any evidence let alone conclusive evidence. He simply states his position as “the truth.” Again, you cannot assume to be true the thing which you need to prove first. Fallacy. Lie.

Second, Ehrman expects us believe he has gotten inside the minds of the New Testament authors. He says they were conscious frauds, “knowing full well” what they did. But how in the world does Ehrman (or anyone else for that matter) have any idea what the New Testament authors knew in their minds? Again this is begging the question—and in a big way. It is a big lie. Ehrman strikes me as an atheistist Bible hack. If he attempts to butcher the Bible like that, what do you think he would do to the Quran? Like Dr. Evans said to put our faith in Jesus Christ is a sure foundation even though there are interpolations and translational errors it doesn't change the central theme of Scripture Jesus saves our souls.

Don't think that these scholars can't pick apart the Quran the way they do the Bible. It comes to down to those that believe God exists and those that don't, and what we believe about God. Ehrman can shake hands with Dawkins the Atheist.
Reply

MustafaMc
02-03-2012, 11:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
One thing the Catholics say I agree with. Jesus is true man from true man and true God from true God. I listen the Bart Ehrman debate; it seems to me that Dr. Evans pawned him. Ehrman states: "And here is the truth: Many of the books of the New Testament were written by people who lied about their identity, claiming to be a famous apostle — Peter, Paul or James — knowing full well they were someone else. In modern parlance, that is a lie, and a book written by someone who lies about his identity is a forgery."

This begs the question: “here is the truth.” I’m sorry, but extreme assertions like these require extreme evidence as proof that they are true. Yet Ehrman does not even try to offer any evidence let alone conclusive evidence. He simply states his position as “the truth.” Again, you cannot assume to be true the thing which you need to prove first. Fallacy. Lie.

Second, Ehrman expects us believe he has gotten inside the minds of the New Testament authors. He says they were conscious frauds, “knowing full well” what they did. But how in the world does Ehrman (or anyone else for that matter) have any idea what the New Testament authors knew in their minds? Again this is begging the question—and in a big way. It is a big lie. Ehrman strikes me as an atheistist Bible hack. If he attempts to butcher the Bible like that, what do you think he would do to the Quran? Like Dr. Evans said to put our faith in Jesus Christ is a sure foundation even though there are interpolations and translational errors it doesn't change the central theme of Scripture Jesus saves our souls.

Don't think that these scholars can't pick apart the Quran the way they do the Bible. It comes to down to those that believe God exists and those that don't, and what we believe about God. Ehrman can shake hands with Dawkins the Atheist.
Didn't you copy and paste this entire post on a reply to me in another thread?^o)
Reply

MustafaMc
02-03-2012, 11:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
God is father of all His creation in the general sense, but in another sense He is not. for Satan has his children. so we are all God's creation but we are not all His children.
Please, explain in what sense Christians are 'children or sons of God'. That is a confusing doctrine to me.
God did through the Holy Spirit as a miraclous Immaculate Conception without the intervention of sexual intercourse.
No, the Immaculate Conception is a Catholic doctrine regarding Mary being born without Original Sin.
Adam was created without a mother but his father was God, but unlike Jesus who always existed as God's word. That is why Jesus is considerd the last Adam. The first Adam screwed things up for mankind, but the last Adam reconciles us to God.
God was not Adam's 'father', but rather his Creator in the same manner as He was for Jesus as in Quran 3:59 Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.
Reply

Predator
02-03-2012, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
lol, those of you who didn't know, this guy is actually serious, here's his commercial:




u may like this too lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYLG1...eature=related
LOL , i always visit that channel to have a good laugh. It looks more of a comedy channel

Here is another one about a pizza order

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1y1c...eature=related
Reply

Burninglight
02-03-2012, 05:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Predator
LOL , i always visit that channel to have a good laugh. It looks more of a comedy channel

Here is another one about a pizza order
Yea, I agree it is good for a laugh. Richard Burnish is a very talented comedian. If he is not an atheist, I wonder what religion he really is?
Reply

Burninglight
02-03-2012, 05:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
God was not Adam's 'father', but rather his Creator in the same manner as He was for Jesus as in Quran 3:59 Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.
Yes, I understand Islam sees Adam and Jesus as God's creation. The Biblical sees Adam as God's creation as well, but when the Bible traces geneology, it traces it back as far as Adam making us all brothers and sisters of Adam, moreover, the Bible refers to Adam has son of God in the sense that all prophets and all people have a father. It shows Adam's father is God even though we all agree he was created by God without earthly mother or father.

As far as the last Adam (Yeshua/Jesus). Well the Bible doesn't depict Him as God's creation. Some Bible translations call Him the beginning of the creation of God. But what it is really saying is Jesus is the beginner of the beginning of creation. Hence, to call Jesus just a messenger is quite a demotion. When Jesus returns as we believe He will, Muslims feel Christians are in trouble for deifying Him and Christians believe that Jesus will not be pleased with those calling him "Son of Mary" and just a prophet no different than any other or even less significant then Muhammad.
Reply

Aprender
02-03-2012, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Second, Ehrman expects us believe he has gotten inside the minds of the New Testament authors. He says they were conscious frauds, “knowing full well” what they did. But how in the world does Ehrman (or anyone else for that matter) have any idea what the New Testament authors knew in their minds?
Oh. I see you are back! Welcome back brother. Now I have a question for you. Earlier you posted.
Jesus was trying to get him to realize what he was actually saying. Jesus was by no means denying He was good. Jesus wanted people to realize who He was without telling them.
How in the world do you (or anyone else for that matter) have any idea what Jesus (pbuh) was thinking in his full mind when you weren't there? The Bible? No. The Bible doesn't even MEAN Gospel. It comes from the Greek word biblios which literally just means book. We don't know if anything that Jesus (pbuh) said in that Bible is the truth because it cannot be verified with the original and we KNOW it has been changed over the years. Even the parts about the resurrection were later additions to the book. Did you not look into the Codex Sinaiticus that I showed you which is the oldest known Bible in the world? How in the world, can you sit there and take the words of someone writing under a false name as Gospel truth and then accuse Ehrman of being a liar when this is a man who has studied these scriptures. Did you read the red letter Bible like I mentioned to you earlier? Did you read Ehrman's book "Forged" to even look into his research yourself?

"For somebody who has faith in the Bible, I can see why it might be threatening," Ehrman said. "But just because it's threatening doesn't mean it's not true."

And yes, Ehrman now went the agnostic route because he was tired of all of the tricks and lies that were brought to the world about salvation and the misery that exists in it. Why do you chose to ignore facts and continue to restate refuted lies? Why do you think you know better than Christian pastors and scholars and even scientists who saw modern day Christianity for what it is and choose not to accept the lies as truth? Yet when these brothers here have tried to show you, you accuse them of having a wrong interpretation. No, you do. You are going off of someone elses interpretation to make a puzzle fit together that never was.

I just want to know. What happened to you that you choose to ignore the facts? Many other Christians who come to this forum easily recognize those errors, and yes, they still have faith in God but after learning here their concept of how to worship God correctly changes. No need for this trinity, original sin, but worshipping one God without any partners and following the teachings of Jesus (pbuh). That is at least one step better for you than following the ideas of man-made dogmas that lead you off of the right path.

http://news.discovery.com/history/bi...ry-110518.html
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news...l-of-forgeries
Reply

Burninglight
02-03-2012, 09:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Oh. I see you are back! Welcome back brother. Now I have a question for you. Earlier you posted.
Thank you
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
How in the world do you (or anyone else for that matter) have any idea what Jesus (pbuh) was thinking in his full mind when you weren't there? The Bible? No. The Bible doesn't even MEAN Gospel. It comes from the Greek word biblios which literally just means book. We don't know if anything that Jesus (pbuh) said in that Bible is the truth because it cannot be verified with the original and we KNOW it has been changed over the years.
I believe that is a fair question. I had explained why I know that, I put it together with other things Jesus has said about Himself in the Bible and with things that OT and NT prophets and apostles said about Jesus, and I come to the conclusion that that is what the author or authors intended it to be. It is the only logical deduction to make. Now if all the authors of the Bible were liars and the Bible is all contrived as you would have me believe, then I would still say that is what the prophet intended according to the authors of the Scritures. Truth can be stranger than fiction.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
How in the world, can you sit there and take the words of someone writing under a false name as Gospel truth and then accuse Ehrman of being a liar when this is a man who has studied these scriptures.
I have studied the Scriptures too. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to firgure this guy jumped out of the frying pan in to the fire. He now with all his studies comes to the conclusion "Well maybe God doesn't exist" I see the wisdom in that; not.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
"For somebody who has faith in the Bible, I can see why it might be threatening," Ehrman said. "But just because it's threatening doesn't mean it's not true."
Well, i don't have faith in the Bible sister. People like Erhman and Muslims have done a good job taking that from me, but I do have faith in Jesus. I believe the Bible has additions, omissions and errors in translation, but inspite of all that Jesus shines through to my heart. So as is written in the Bible, "Let every man be a liar but God's word is true"
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
And yes, Ehrman now went the agnostic route because he was tired of all of the tricks and lies that were brought to the world about salvation and the misery that exists in it. Why do you chose to ignore facts and continue to restate refuted lies? Why do you think you know better than Christian pastors and scholars and even scientists who saw modern day Christianity for what it is and choose not to accept the lies as truth? Yet when these brothers here have tried to show you, you accuse them of having a wrong interpretation. No, you do. You are going off of someone elses interpretation to make a puzzle fit together that never was.
I don't think i know better. What puzzle am I trying to make fit? Brothers have tried to show me what my religion is about. I think I would be better to judge that just like you would about your religion
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
I just want to know. What happened to you that you choose to ignore the facts?
Why facts my sister. Do you mean the fact that the Bible is totally unreliable and the Quran is? If Erhman is so smart, why couldn't he come to that conclusion? All he did is talked himself out of God and some other poor souls. If he talks that way about the Bible what do you think he would say about the Quran?
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Many other Christians who come to this forum easily recognize those errors, and yes, they still have faith in God but after learning here their concept of how to worship God correctly changes
What do you mean? They converted to Islam or reverted as you would say? Is that what happened to the other Christians, but I am the slow one??.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
No need for this trinity, original sin, but worshipping one God without any partners and following the teachings of Jesus (pbuh). That is at least one step better for you than following the ideas of man-made dogmas that lead you off of the right path.
I have never preached trinity to anyone or orginal sin. Muslims bring up trinity more than Christians. Trinity is a term that is not mentioned in the Bible nor is the term orginal sin. So why do you bring it up to me? Jesus in the Bible said, "I am the Way, Truth and the Life" He didn't say I show the way like other prophets. Jesus said, "before ABRAHAM WAS I AM" "THE FATHER AND I ARE ONE" The Jews wanted Jesus dead for a reason. They finally got what they wanted. The death of Christ is historically proven a fact. I didn't hear Dr. Bart Erhman refute that; did you?
May we all come to the knowledge of truth!
Reply

Aprender
02-03-2012, 11:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to firgure this guy jumped out of the frying pan in to the fire. He now with all his studies comes to the conclusion "Well maybe God doesn't exist" I see the wisdom in that; not.
I totally agree with you there. I find that's one of the problems with the atheist/agnostic. Just because they find something about ONE religion that they don't like or deem true, they brand every other religion the same. I grew up with a friend who was born and raised a Shik and once we got into college, he totally let go of his religion, branded all of them lies, and became an atheist.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Now if all the authors of the Bible were liars and the Bible is all contrived as you would have me believe, then I would still say that is what the prophet intended according to the authors of the Scritures.
But we don't believe ALL of the Bible is contrived and ALL of the author of the Bible are liars. Some of the good still shines through in those words but the major parts of what Christianity WAS isn't taught anymore. It's something very different now. So do the Christians back then who worshiped one God go to hell because they didn't believe Jesus(pbuh) was the son of God and their savior?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I don't think i know better. What puzzle am I trying to make fit? Brothers have tried to show me what my religion is about. I think I would be better to judge that just like you would about your religion
Take note that some of the people here trying to answer your questions were once devout Christians too. And it's not you. It's the people who came up with these creeds and doctrines and verses they added to the Bible to make the puzzles of the trinity and original sin fit when they weren't there in the Bible to begin with but they force feed it into congregations.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
What do you mean? They converted to Islam or reverted as you would say? Is that what happened to the other Christians, but I am the slow one??.
No. Some Christians who come here do not convert/revert to Islam. But after studies they no longer accept the trinity or original sin as after doing their research they see that these concepts don't make sense to them. I know a few who still attend church every Sunday or Saturday for 7th Day Adventists, but they don't take everything that their pastor says as Gospel truth because they now understand where the errors are. And instead, they follow the teachings of Jesus (pbuh) and pray to God alone. I'm not saying that you are slow. I'm glad that you are taking your time and doing your research. This is better than just taking everything someone says and blindly following it. But it's also important for you to keep an open mind. It took me 4 years of questioning, reading, and everything before I decided to embrace Islam.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Trinity is a term that is not mentioned in the Bible nor is the term orginal sin. So why do you bring it up to me?
You're right. But the problem is that original sin is taught in churches to justify Jesus (pbuh) dying for the sins all of mankind when he said he was sent to the lost ones of Israel. These are the things that most Christians believe to be the truth even though they are not found in the Bible.

May I ask, what kind of Christian are you, brother? What do you believe about God and what do you believe about Jesus(pbuh)? And have you ever looked into any other religions (aside from Islam)? And please, go in-depth with me here. I want to hear your testimony if you don't mind. Do you believe that certain sects of Christianity are on the wrong path? Do you belive that everyone in the world who isn't the right kind of Christian will go to hell? I think this might help us understand where you are coming from a little bit better so we can avoid any further misunderstandings.
Reply

MustafaMc
02-04-2012, 03:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Yes, I understand Islam sees Adam and Jesus as God's creation. The Biblical sees Adam as God's creation as well, but when the Bible traces geneology, it traces it back as far as Adam making us all brothers and sisters of Adam, moreover, the Bible refers to Adam has son of God in the sense that all prophets and all people have a father. It shows Adam's father is God even though we all agree he was created by God without earthly mother or father.
This concept of "Adam's father is God" is difficult for me to comprehend.
Christians believe that Jesus will not be pleased with those calling him "Son of Mary" and just a prophet no different than any other or even less significant then Muhammad.
It is interesting that you mention Jesus as 'Son of Mary'. Jesus is mentioned by name in 25 verses of the Quran and in 16 of those his name is followed by 'Son of Mary', 4 times 'Messiah' was followed by 'Son of Mary' and 2 times he is referred to simply as 'Son of Mary'. The phrase 'Son of Mary' thus occurs in 22 of the Quran. In the Gospel According to Matthew Jesus is quoted as referring to himself as the 'Son of Man' in 29 verses, but in this same book the title 'Son of God' is not found on the tongue of Jesus even once. It seems incredibly odd that Jesus made a point of referring to himself as the 'Son of Man' AND that the Quran refers to his as the 'Son of Mary'.

Muslims also expect Jesus to return during the Last Days to reign as the Messiah/Annointed One/King.
Reply

Burninglight
02-04-2012, 03:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
I totally agree with you there. I find that's one of the problems with the atheist/agnostic. Just because they find something about ONE religion that they don't like or deem true, they brand every other religion the same. I grew up with a friend who was born and raised a Shik and once we got into college, he totally let go of his religion, branded all of them lies, and became an atheist.
Good, it is nice to be on the same page with someone for a change.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
But we don't believe ALL of the Bible is contrived and ALL of the author of the Bible are liars. Some of the good still shines through in those words but the major parts of what Christianity WAS isn't taught anymore. It's something very different now. So do the Christians back then who worshiped one God go to hell because they didn't believe Jesus(pbuh) was the son of God and their savior?
I know you don't Aprender. lol, your question is funny here. Why should the Christians back then go to hell? If they didn't believe Jesus is the son of God, they wouldn't be Christians. They would be Jews or Muslims or some other type of theist, but not Christian. To be a Christian one must have Jesus in there heart, and believe He is who he says he is in the Bible.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Take note that some of the people here trying to answer your questions were once devout Christians too. And it's not you. It's the people who came up with these creeds and doctrines and verses they added to the Bible to make the puzzles of the trinity and original sin fit when they weren't there in the Bible to begin with but they force feed it into congregations.
Many Christians have different interpretation of Scriptures. I know the Bible doesn't use the term trinity so I am happy not to use it. But I always get it thrown in my face. Trinity is not there, but the Father is mentioned and the Holy Spirit is mentioned as being God, but I don't see the Holy Spirit as an associate or partner of God. I don't know if all Christians will agree, but I believe God is Spirit like the Bible says; I believe He is Holy; therefore, He is the Almighty Holy Spirit who is the only one true God. Now Jesus is the issue Muslim particularily have with Christians. They see Him as a prophet and we do too. They see Him as a messenger, but we don't. We see Him as the message of God (The word of God). We see Jesus not as God's partner or associate but as the very extention of His word to us in human form.

Islam is about man trying to reach God from what i can tell, but Christianity is about God reaching out to man. All we have to do is accept it. God is the only one who can finish what he started in us. This is the good news; we can rest from our labor; we can be free instead of slaves; we can let go and let God. That's means freedom from bondage and slavery of keeping rules and ordiances. Whom the son sets free is free indeed. We are free to do what is right not what we want.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
You're right. But the problem is that original sin is taught in churches to justify Jesus (pbuh) dying for the sins all of mankind when he said he was sent to the lost ones of Israel. These are the things that most Christians believe to be the truth even though they are not found in the Bible.
original sin may be taught but I don't believe it justifies Jesus dying on the cross, but I believe Jesus' death on the cross justifies us before God for our past, present and future sin, but that is not a liciense to sin for God is not mocked; whatever a person sows so shall he reap.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
May I ask, what kind of Christian are you, brother? What do you believe about God and what do you believe about Jesus(pbuh)? And have you ever looked into any other religions (aside from Islam)? And please, go in-depth with me here. I want to hear your testimony if you don't mind. Do you believe that certain sects of Christianity are on the wrong path? Do you belive that everyone in the world who isn't the right kind of Christian will go to hell? I think this might help us understand where you are coming from a little bit better so we can avoid any further misunderstandings.
yes, you may, I answered your question in part already. I see it this way. God is ONE; there is no God but God. He is all powerful and just. We must one day stand before the GREAT JUDGE to give account for our lives. I see a gaint court room with all the world watching from all people tongues and nations and the risen dead from times ancient. Even the Devil / Satan will be there and all heavenly hosts. Satan is the prosecuting attorney; God is the judge. We stand before God guilty as sin and the prosecuting attorney reminds God he/she is guilty they are mine.

God allows us to see our life in a flash. There is no doubt of our guilt before Him. So God says to us "depart from me into everlasting fire you wicked unprofitable servant" because God is JUST, it must be so. It is different for those that know Jesus. Jesus is their defense attorney. The Devil will say to God he/she is guilty, but Jesus says hold on. They are not gulity; they are innocent and pure holy and acceptable and I have them written in the plams of my hand and they are found in the book of life.

I believe the Scripture that says: "He that has the son has life; he that doesn't have the son has not life, but the wrath of God abides on Him. I believe many people are doing things for God, but if they are not meeting God on His terms, it profits them nothing. Jesus said. "I am the the way.." he said, "NO man comes to the father except through me." I believe anyone trying to get to God any other way won't get there. I see it like I invite someone to my house. I tell them the way to get to my house, because of where my house is located. They can say "No I will go a different and better way", but they don't arrive. I know where I live, and I know how to get there, but they chose their way and got lost. I hope that gives you an idea of what I believe.

We can say the Scriptures are corrupted and not believe it. Most people will excuse us but will God? It is written that "If anyone teaches you different than Jesus Christ crucified, even if an angle comes and tells you different, let Him be eternally condemned."

I believe there are errors in the Bible, but not about matters of salvation, because it involves our eternal souls. I do not believe man's power to corrupt God's original plan of salvation is greater than the one true Almighty God's power to preserve it. I believe the Devil tries to twart God's plan, but he will fail in my life.
May Satan be bound and we all be bless with the knowledge of TRUTH
Reply

MustafaMc
02-04-2012, 03:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I believe God is Spirit like the Bible says; I believe He is Holy; therefore, He is the Almighty Holy Spirit who is the only one true God.
I personally believe that angels are spirits, but I have little understanding about what a spirit is other than that they exist in a different form than what I can perceive as a human. Others may correct me if I am wrong, but I don't necessarily see God as a 'Spirit' in the same sense that angels are. My understanding is that God exists in a dimension outside of His creation and that we humans have extremely little knowledge of His nature outside of what is revealed in the Quran including the descriptive names such as Rahmani, The Most Merciful, Ayatal Kursi 2:255, and the 'Light upon Light' verse 24:35.
Now Jesus is the issue Muslim particularily have with Christians. They see Him as a prophet and we do too. They see Him as a messenger, but we don't. We see Him as the message of God (The word of God). We see Jesus not as God's partner or associate but as the very extention of His word to us in human form.
I agree with you that this is the critical difference. You see that the gospel is not what Jesus said (as a messenger of God), but rather as what he did on the cross. The Quran 4:171 says, "...The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him... " This verse confirms Jesus as a messenger of God, but also includes the phrases 'His word' and 'a spirit from Him' which seems to confirm what you are saying. This concept is repeated in 66:12 "And Mary, daughter of 'Imran, whose body was chaste, therefor We breathed therein something of Our spirit..." My limited understanding is that these verses refer to the supernatural aspect of Jesus coming into being, but I admit that I do not fully understand the meaning. These verses seem to support the Christian concept that Jesus is "God with us"; however, I leave it at what 3:59 says, "Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: 'Be!' and he is." This indicates that Jesus is a created being like Adam was.
Islam is about man trying to reach God from what i can tell, but Christianity is about God reaching out to man.
Actually, I see the sending of the Quran and Islam to mankind through Muhammad (saaws) was a means of 'God reaching out to man' and in so doing reveals what His will is for us in how we live our lives. I am reminded of Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. The point here is that 'does the will of My Father' is an action verb, but the question remains, "What is the 'will of My Father' ?"
This is the good news; we can rest from our labor; we can be free instead of slaves; we can let go and let God. That's means freedom from bondage and slavery of keeping rules and ordiances. Whom the son sets free is free indeed. We are free to do what is right not what we want.
This point illustrates the 'works vs faith' struggle between those who preached following the Judaic Law like Peter and Jesus' other disciples and that of justification by faith in Jesus taught by Paul. This conflict is reflected in the book of Galatians.
I see it this way. God is ONE; there is no God but God. He is all powerful and just. We must one day stand before the GREAT JUDGE to give account for our lives.
On this I agree with you.
I see a gaint court room with all the world watching from all people tongues and nations and the risen dead from times ancient. ... Satan is the prosecuting attorney; God is the judge. ... So God says to us "depart from me into everlasting fire you wicked unprofitable servant" because God is JUST, it must be so. It is different for those that know Jesus. Jesus is their defense attorney.
This is an interesting concept. I see that we will have to give an account for our lives and that, yes, we are imperfect creatures full of shortcomings. I also see that we can't do or be good enough to merit entrance into Heaven for there yet remains the intention behind whatever good that we did. In Islam the intention is extremely important in determining merit of a deed and who among us can judge his own heart? Christians always say things like 'God is JUST' or 'sin MUST be punished'. I also see that God is just, but also that He is merciful and that he is a forgiving God to some and a wrathful God to others. Christians limit God's mercy to a formula of Him becoming a human, living a perfect life, and dying on the cross as the only possible means for man's redemption from his sins. I see the means of attaining the mercy of God as having proper faith without ascribing partners with Him, obeying His will (following the Sunnah) including how we worship Him and how we interact with our fellow creatures, refraining from sin and disobedience as much as possible, and having pure intention of doing what we do for the sake of God. In the end we are yet at the mercy of Allah.

I don't see Satan as prosecuting attorney, but rather as codefendant in having tempted mankind into disobedience as in the Quran 14:22 And Satan said, when the matter has been decided: Lo! Allah promised you a promise of truth; and I promised you, then failed you. And I had no power over you save that I called unto you and you obeyed me. So blame not, but blame yourselves. I cannot help you, nor can you help me, Lo!..." We see Muhammad (saaws) as our defense attorney and as our mediator with Allah who will plead for mercy on behalf of those who followed him.
I believe many people are doing things for God, but if they are not meeting God on His terms, it profits them nothing. ... I hope that gives you an idea of what I believe.
Thank you for sharing your faith and it pretty well reflected my understanding of the Christian faith. We differ in our understanding of what it means to 'meet God on His terms'. The Islamic terms are pure faith in One God without ascribing partners and following the Sunnah of Muhammad (saaws) which coincidentally reflects the shahadah and the Christian terms are faith in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God (also as God in human flesh) and accepting the free gift of salvation which was Jesus death on the cross as their redeeming sacrifice.
We can say the Scriptures are corrupted and not believe it. Most people will excuse us but will God? It is written that "If anyone teaches you different than Jesus Christ crucified, even if an angle comes and tells you different, let Him be eternally condemned."
Yes, the self-proclaimed apostle/messenger to the Gentiles, Paul, wrote in Galatians 1:8-9, But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
I do not believe man's power to corrupt God's original plan of salvation is greater than the one true Almighty God's power to preserve it. I believe the Devil tries to twart God's plan, but he will fail in my life.
May Satan be bound and we all be bless with the knowledge of TRUTH
Let's be honest, hopefully, without being offensive. Either Islam or Christianity is the true religion or the straight way that leads to salvation and the other is a false one devised by Satan to mislead mankind away from the straight way and into the Hellfire to join him. Both cannot be correct with one saying, "Jesus is the Son of God" and the other saying "Jesus is not the Son of God." In the same manner, the revelation that Paul claimed in Galatians 1:12 to have received directly from God or the revelation to Muhammad (saaws) Quran 3:7 is a true revelation and the other one is false. Likewise, either Paul or Muhammad (saaws) is a true prophet and messenger of God and the other is a false prophet in sheep's clothing. It is a matter of what we individually decide to believe and each of us will stand before God along with the choice we make.

I agree rather strongly with you, "May Satan be bound and we all be blessed with the knowledge of TRUTH."
Reply

Aprender
02-04-2012, 05:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
yes, you may, I answered your question in part already. I see it this way. God is ONE; there is no God but God. He is all powerful and just. We must one day stand before the GREAT JUDGE to give account for our lives. I see a gaint court room with all the world watching from all people tongues and nations and the risen dead from times ancient. Even the Devil / Satan will be there and all heavenly hosts. Satan is the prosecuting attorney; God is the judge. We stand before God guilty as sin and the prosecuting attorney reminds God he/she is guilty they are mine.

God allows us to see our life in a flash. There is no doubt of our guilt before Him. So God says to us "depart from me into everlasting fire you wicked unprofitable servant" because God is JUST, it must be so. It is different for those that know Jesus. Jesus is their defense attorney. The Devil will say to God he/she is guilty, but Jesus says hold on. They are not gulity; they are innocent and pure holy and acceptable and I have them written in the plams of my hand and they are found in the book of life.

I believe the Scripture that says: "He that has the son has life; he that doesn't have the son has not life, but the wrath of God abides on Him. I believe many people are doing things for God, but if they are not meeting God on His terms, it profits them nothing. Jesus said. "I am the the way.." he said, "NO man comes to the father except through me." I believe anyone trying to get to God any other way won't get there. I see it like I invite someone to my house. I tell them the way to get to my house, because of where my house is located. They can say "No I will go a different and better way", but they don't arrive. I know where I live, and I know how to get there, but they chose their way and got lost. I hope that gives you an idea of what I believe.

We can say the Scriptures are corrupted and not believe it. Most people will excuse us but will God? It is written that "If anyone teaches you different than Jesus Christ crucified, even if an angle comes and tells you different, let Him be eternally condemned."

I believe there are errors in the Bible, but not about matters of salvation, because it involves our eternal souls. I do not believe man's power to corrupt God's original plan of salvation is greater than the one true Almighty God's power to preserve it. I believe the Devil tries to twart God's plan, but he will fail in my life.
May Satan be bound and we all be bless with the knowledge of TRUTH
Before I address some of the other things that you wrote, you didn't answer a few of my other questions.

So what kind of Christian are you? Are you a Mennonite? 7th Day Adventist? Methodist? Lutheran? Anglican? Pentecostal? Quaker? Presbyterian? Charistmatic? Celtic Orthodox? Apolistic? Evangelical? Episcopal? Greek Orthodox? Scientologist? Non-denominational?

Have you ever looked into any other religions or are you Christian because you grew up in a Christian household? Do you believe that certain sects of Christianity (there are close to 34,000 different forms of Christianity) are on the wrong path and do you think that people who don't follow the right Christianity will go to hell?

And this one isn't apart of what I initially asked. But when you were growing up, as a child, what were you taught about Muslims in church and in the community before and after 9/11?
Reply

Burninglight
02-05-2012, 12:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
So what kind of Christian are you? Are you a Mennonite? 7th Day Adventist? Methodist? Lutheran? Anglican? Pentecostal? Quaker? Presbyterian? Charistmatic? Celtic Orthodox? Apolistic? Evangelical? Episcopal? Greek Orthodox? Scientologist? Non-denominational?
I was born and raised Catholic, but I don't know what I am now. I don't seem to fit well anywhere! I am one of those weird Christians I guess. I go to a non-demoninational church right now, but I am not sure I agree with everything the pastor believes. I have really gotten on the nerve of many a pastors asking about the Bible corruption and telling them they are intreperting this and that wrong; sometimes I had to leave the church to keep the peace. I didn't answer, sister, because i felt embarassed to say "I don't know what kind of Christian I am." Maybe you can tell me from my writings. I don't know if cult Christianity is going to heaven. No one in any church know what islam is about. I know more about it than any Christian I have meet in all the churches I have been to. I can tell you Islam as been stabbing pretty hard at my believe system all the same. I recant and repent of being embarassed; I am a Christian like Peter & Paul!
Reply

MustafaMc
02-05-2012, 12:42 AM
If I were you, I wouldn't be embarassed to not know what kind of Christian I am. I would rather prefer to say, "I am the kind of Christian that Peter, James, Stephen and Barnabas were." This is how I see the Sunni Muslims are - the kind of Muslims that Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali were.

This passage came to my mind. Though Christians don't see that they worship Mary, Muslims see that they do with the 'Hail Mary, Mother of God' and with the statues that Catholics have of the Madonna. Quran 5:116-120 And when Allah said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he said: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then You know it. You know what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Your Mind. Lo! You, only You, are the Knower of things hidden? I spake unto them only that which You commanded me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when You took me You were the Watcher over them. You are Witness over all things. If You punish them, lo! they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them (lo! they are Your slaves). Lo! You, only You, are the Mighty, the Wise. Allah said: This is a day in which their truthfulness profits the truthful, for theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they are secure for ever, Allah taking pleasure in them and they in Him. That is the great triumph. Unto Allah belongs the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and whatsoever is therein, and He is Able to do all things.
Reply

Scimitar
02-05-2012, 01:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I was born and raised Catholic, but I don't know what I am now. I don't seem to fit well anywhere! I am one of those weird Christians I guess. I go to a non-demoninational church right now, but I am not sure I agree with everything the pastor believes. I have really gotten on the nerve of many a pastors asking about the Bible corruption and telling them they are intreperting this and that wrong; sometimes I had to leave the church to keep the peace. I didn't answer, sister, because i felt embarassed to say "I don't know what kind of Christian I am." Maybe you can tell me from my writings. I don't know if cult Christianity is going to heaven. No one in any church know what islam is about. I know more about it than any Christian I have meet in all the churches I have been to. I can tell you Islam as been stabbing pretty hard at my believe system all the same.
You have softenend my heart with this post so much bro, that i've actually got wet eyes and don't care who knows it.

I know one thing, you aren't alone... you are looking for truth, and I pray to God Almighty the Merciful that HE guides you to the correct way, Ameen.

Infact, I beleive HE already is.

Scimi
Reply

Burninglight
02-05-2012, 01:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I personally believe that angels are spirits, but I have little understanding about what a spirit is other than that they exist in a different form than what I can perceive as a human. Others may correct me if I am wrong, but I don't necessarily see God as a 'Spirit' in the same sense that angels are. My understanding is that God exists in a dimension outside of His creation and that we humans have extremely little knowledge of His nature outside of what is revealed in the Quran including the descriptive names such as Rahmani, The Most Merciful, Ayatal Kursi 2:255, and the 'Light upon Light' verse 24:35.
Thanks for your response. You really seem knowlegable of Christianity. Yes, I believe angels are spirits, because it is Scriptural.
I believe God is the uncreated Spirit. I say He is Spirit because the Bible says so. I don't understand like you about spirits, but i believe we are also spirits but in a hamburger right now. lol, if you can put it that way. God is over all His creation and His word keeps it altogether. I am not sure what you mean outside of His creation, but I believe God interacts with us and His Spirit is in me. He is closer to us than our juglar.
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I agree with you that this is the critical difference. You see that the gospel is not what Jesus said (as a messenger of God), but rather as what he did on the cross. The Quran 4:171 says, "...The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him... " This verse confirms Jesus as a messenger of God, but also includes the phrases 'His word' and 'a spirit from Him' which seems to confirm what you are saying. This concept is repeated in 66:12 "And Mary, daughter of 'Imran, whose body was chaste, therefor We breathed therein something of Our spirit..." My limited understanding is that these verses refer to the supernatural aspect of Jesus coming into being, but I admit that I do not fully understand the meaning. These verses seem to support the Christian concept that Jesus is "God with us"; however, I leave it at what 3:59 says, "Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: 'Be!' and he is." .
Yes, your right it's about the work on the cross.
Jesus is the son of man, but since God spoke life into Mary, we have a very significant child here. You have a unique conception that has never happened before of after; The Bible is repelete with prophecy concerning this event such as "a child is given; a son is born; and the government shall be upon His shoulder; He shall be called Mighty God; Everlasting father; Prince of peace and the list goes on. We believe and stake our lives and souls on that Being Jesus who God calls His "Beloved Son in whom I am (He's) well please hear ye Him" What does Jesus say? "I am before Abraham; I am the way, truth and life; no one comes to God except through me; He that has seen me has seen the father; I and the father are one" It is not just what Jesus said in the NT it is what the OT confirms about Him.

It is impossible, IMO for the Bible to be corrupted to this degree. I am not able or willing to believe this because the Quran states that Allah made it appear that Jesus died. Why would Allah do such a thing knowing it was going to result in Christianity sending billions to hell??? I don't need to go to hate sites to have things bother me about a god like that. Besides, Allah is calling all testimonies, witnesses of Jesus death and resurrection liars in the Bible and even calling the Bible corrupted. Okay, I agree there are interpolations in the Bible and translational errors, but scholars know what they are, but the central message of the Bible still holds together inspite of it.

Even Dr. Erhman knows what has been added and taken away, but the rest he is not sure. One cannot say what he is not sure of is corruption. Muslims say anything in the Bible that disagrees with the Quran is corrupted. Okay, you can say that, but I don't believe the Quran is so pure either, because of Uthman's burning sessions. It just comes down to what we have the faith to believe. I don't have the faith to believe that jesus didn't die and rise from the dead.
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Actually, I see the sending of the Quran and Islam to mankind through Muhammad (saaws) was a means of 'God reaching out to man' and in so doing reveals what His will is for us in how we live our lives. I am reminded of Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. The point here is that 'does the will of My Father' is an action verb, but the question remains, "What is the 'will of My Father' ?"
It is written the will of the father is to "Believe on Him whom He sent"
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
This point illustrates the 'works vs faith' struggle between those who preached following the Judaic Law like Peter and Jesus' other disciples and that of justification by faith in Jesus taught by Paul. This conflict is reflected in the book of Galatians.
I knew you were knowelagble. yes, Paul. The big battle is between Muhammad and Paul. An angel spoke to Muhammad; Jesus spoke to Paul
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
On this I agree with you.
If you agree with me, I must be wrong. lol, just joking bro ha, ha heeee
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
This is an interesting concept. I see that we will have to give an account for our lives and that, yes, we are imperfect creatures full of shortcomings. I also see that we can't do or be good enough to merit entrance into Heaven for there yet remains the intention behind whatever good that we did. In Islam the intention is extremely important in determining merit of a deed and who among us can judge his own heart? Christians always say things like 'God is JUST' or 'sin MUST be punished'. I also see that God is just, but also that He is merciful and that he is a forgiving God to some and a wrathful God to others. Christians limit God's mercy to a formula of Him becoming a human, living a perfect life, and dying on the cross as the only possible means for man's redemption from his sins. I see the means of attaining the mercy of God as having proper faith without ascribing partners with Him, obeying His will (following the Sunnah) including how we worship Him and how we interact with our fellow creatures, refraining from sin and disobedience as much as possible, and having pure intention of doing what we do for the sake of God. In the end we are yet at the mercy of Allah.
We understand that Jesus Christ is God's mercy. We understand He is theway to receive it. We believe trying any other way is not meeting God on His terms; we will have to then be responsible to pay for our own sin. Those that choose to pay for their own sin, do it for eternity
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I don't see Satan as prosecuting attorney, but rather as codefendant in having tempted mankind into disobedience as in the Quran 14:22 And Satan said, when the matter has been decided: Lo! Allah promised you a promise of truth; and I promised you, then failed you. And I had no power over you save that I called unto you and you obeyed me. So blame not, but blame yourselves. I cannot help you, nor can you help me, Lo!..." We see Muhammad (saaws) as our defense attorney and as our mediator with Allah who will plead for mercy on behalf of those who followed him.
Satan tempts us to sin then he condemns us for doing it. The Bible says He is the "accuser of the saints." Jesus, makes intercession for us Christians.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Thank you for sharing your faith and it pretty well reflected my understanding of the Christian faith. We differ in our understanding of what it means to 'meet God on His terms'. The Islamic terms are pure faith in One God without ascribing partners and following the Sunnah of Muhammad (saaws) which coincidentally reflects the shahadah and the Christian terms are faith in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God (also as God in human flesh) and accepting the free gift of salvation which was Jesus death on the cross as their redeeming sacrifice.
Yes, We shouldn't ascribe partners or associates unto God. I agree, however, I believe rejecting Jesus as our Savior is to reject God. Just like Deut 18 states from among your bretheren one will come Jesus fits that. Moses was made God and Aaron the spokesman Moses was savior for the children of Israel jesus Savior of the world, but we have to believe and recieve.
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Yes, the self-proclaimed apostle/messenger to the Gentiles, Paul, wrote in Galatians 1:8-9, But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Self proclaimed? Jesus spoke to Paul rebuking him for consenting to the death of Christians. Paul is the glue in Christianity and he only points us to Jesus not himself.
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Let's be honest, hopefully, without being offensive. Either Islam or Christianity is the true religion or the straight way that leads to salvation and the other is a false one devised by Satan to mislead mankind away from the straight way and into the Hellfire to join him. Both cannot be correct with one saying, "Jesus is the Son of God" and the other saying "Jesus is not the Son of God." In the same manner, the revelation that Paul claimed in Galatians 1:12 to have received directly from God or the revelation to Muhammad (saaws) Quran 3:7 is a true revelation and the other one is false. Likewise, either Paul or Muhammad (saaws) is a true prophet and messenger of God and the other is a false prophet in sheep's clothing. It is a matter of what we individually decide to believe and each of us will stand before God along with the choice we make.
Yes, both religions are mutually exclusive. It is even amazing that we Christians and Muslims can dialogue like this when you think of how diametrically opposed these believe systems are. Ironically we share all the same prophets with the exception of one.
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I agree rather strongly with you, "May Satan be bound and we all be blessed with the knowledge of TRUTH."
Amen to that!
Reply

Burninglight
02-05-2012, 02:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
If I were you, I wouldn't be embarassed to not know what kind of Christian I am. I would rather prefer to say, "I am the kind of Christian that Peter, James, Stephen and Barnabas were."
You are right, I believe the Lord is speaking through you to me. I am a Christian like Peter was. Thank you, you have identified me! For God had told me in my youth my name shall be called Peter.
Reply

Burninglight
02-05-2012, 03:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
This passage came to my mind. Though Christians don't see that they worship Mary, Muslims see that they do with the 'Hail Mary, Mother of God' and with the statues that Catholics have of the Madonna. Quran 5:116-120 And when Allah said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he said: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then You know it. You know what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Your Mind. Lo! You, only You, are the Knower of things hidden? I spake unto them only that which You commanded me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when You took me You were the Watcher over them. You are Witness over all things. If You punish them, lo! they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them (lo! they are Your slaves). Lo! You, only You, are the Mighty, the Wise. Allah said: This is a day in which their truthfulness profits the truthful, for theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they are secure for ever, Allah taking pleasure in them and they in Him. That is the great triumph. Unto Allah belongs the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and whatsoever is therein, and He is Able to do all things.
In another place Allah also says "say not three" Since Allah never mentions the Holy Spirit, was his understanding of the three the father (God), Mary (the Mother) & Jesus (the Son)? I don't see in the Quran were there is an understanding of early Christian doctrine and belief of what the Scripture identify as God's nature. Catholics pray to Mary till this day; they call her "The mother of God" Even the "Virgin of Guadalupe" and queen of heaven, but no where did the early church consider her the mother of God much less God nor did they pray to her or the saints. Not even the Catholics considered Mary to be God so why would Allah ask Jesus about him saying "Did you say take me and my mother (Mary) for two gods beside Allah?" and not mention the the Holy Spirit in that passage or anywhere in the Quran who is one of the three persons of the deity? WADR, this causes me not to take this verse from the Quran seriously. Christians have always believed the Holy Spirit is God even Catholics believe that. No Christians ever believe in 4 persons of the Godhead. I see this as a discrepancy. Maybe Uthman left out some scripture while recompiling the Quran, but if he didn't, than I have a major issue with that. IOW, if Mary were a god and jesus was a god and Allah is god what happened to the Holy Spirit who is God? Do you see my point or not? This hasn't been addressed clearly to me yet. BTW, I don't see myself a slave of God. Jesus said, "I call you friends? We are free ss Isaac was free born. Hagar was the bond woman with Ishmael
Reply

Aprender
02-05-2012, 04:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
He is closer to us than our juglar.
Mmhmm. This particular reference is in the Quran.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I can tell you Islam as been stabbing pretty hard at my believe system all the same.
And what exactly is it about Islam do you think that is stabbing pretty hard at you? What is it that attracts you to this way of life?
Reply

MustafaMc
02-05-2012, 04:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Thanks for your response. You really seem knowlegable of Christianity.
You are welcome. I was a Christian and I have studied a little. Interestingly, I decided to reread the NT after I decided to start practicing Islam again in June 2001. That is when I came to understand Galatians as I do now. It was like I read it for the first time even though I am sure I read it when I was in college and was a practicing Christian as a member of the Church of Christ.
I don't understand like you about spirits, but i believe we are also spirits but in a hamburger right now. lol, if you can put it that way. God is over all His creation and His word keeps it altogether. I am not sure what you mean outside of His creation, but I believe God interacts with us and His Spirit is in me. He is closer to us than our juglar.
Yes, I believe our soul is like a spirit within our bodies. What I mean by God being outside of His creation is that I see God as not being constrained to the dimensions of space and time like we are. I don't see that God is everywhere at once except in His Knowledge. This is different from the Christian concept of the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit. My understanding of God being closer to us than our juglar is that He knows our innermost secrets and our intentions for every deed. My understanding of our existence as compared to that of God can be likened to a fish aquarium with the sides made of 1-way mirror. We swim around and eat the food that is sprinkled in from above, but we can't see who it is that brings us that food. We need this other 'Being', but He does not need us. He knows our nature and how to take care of us, but we don't know His nature. He can see us through the 1-way glass of the aquarium, but we can't see Him.
Jesus is the son of man, but since God spoke life into Mary, we have a very significant child here. You have a unique conception that has never happened before of after;
You are right that Jesus is a unique human being and I have often wondered about his nature. I have come to the conclusion that it is something that I can't understand and just leave it at what the Quran says.
The Bible is repelete with prophecy concerning this event such as "a child is given; a son is born; and the government shall be upon His shoulder; .... It is not just what Jesus said in the NT it is what the OT confirms about Him.
There are verses in the OT that can be interpreted as refering to Jesus. We, too, believe that Jesus will return to reign during the Last Days as the Messiah, or Annointed One.
It is impossible, IMO for the Bible to be corrupted to this degree. I am not able or willing to believe this because the Quran states that Allah made it appear that Jesus died. Why would Allah do such a thing knowing it was going to result in Christianity sending billions to hell??? I don't need to go to hate sites to have things bother me about a god like that. Besides, Allah is calling all testimonies, witnesses of Jesus death and resurrection liars in the Bible and even calling the Bible corrupted.
Quran 4:157 states, And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucfied him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. Yes, Jesus' origins and his death (or apparent death) are puzzles to me too. Having been a Christian I know what it is like to believe that Jesus was 'God with us' and I feel that I was sincere in my faith. I believe in a merciful God and I believe that He is also Just. I am brought again to what the Quran quotes Jesus as saying to Allah in 5:118 If You punish them, lo! they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them (lo! they are Your slaves). Lo! You, only You, art the Mighty, the Wise. If you can for a moment consider my situation and then my leaving in Allah's Hand the difficult question you vocalized that to a point is also inside my heart. To my knowledge, I am the only person in my entire family that has ever existed who is a Muslim, except for my wife. My parents and grandparents have died as Christians. My brother and sister and their children are all Christians. My only child is agnostic. You see the question 'Why would Allah do such a thing?' is very personal to me and it would surely drive me crazy or to unbelief if I dwelled upon it. On this I choose to leave it alone.
I don't believe the Quran is so pure either, because of Uthman's burning sessions. It just comes down to what we have the faith to believe.
If it weren't for the facts that 1) Uthman returned to the original manuscript that was complied under Abu Bakr's leadership, 2) many of the first Muslims memorized the entire Quran, and 3) the entire Quran (at least as much as had been revealed at that time) was recited by Muhammad (saaws) every year during Ramadhan, I would agree that the burning of Quran by Uthman would leave doubt about the authenticity of what we have now. One thing to remember is that Abu Bakr, Umar, Utnman and Ali were all companions of Muhammad (saaws) and there was no disagreement among them regarding what the Quran was or the accuracy of the manuscript in their hands.
Yes, We shouldn't ascribe partners or associates unto God. I agree, however, I believe rejecting Jesus as our Savior is to reject God.
It is eery that my mother used almost these except words in the later sentence regarding me.
Self proclaimed?
As Paul wrote in Galatians 2:7-8 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles) Confirmation of this claim is not made (to my knowledge) by Jesus' disciples. In fact Paul was not even qualified to be an apostle to anyone as the disciples laid out the criteria in Acts 1:21-22. It was important to them that the person replacing Judas should have witnessed the entirety of Jesus' ministry from the day of his baptism until his ascension. The point is that the disciples preached what Jesus said and did while he walked on earth, while Paul preached faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. I think you would agree that there was a spiritual struggle here and the fate of this struggle was sealed with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Another question is 'Why God allowed this struggle to end as it did?' My opinion is reflected by none other than Bart Ehrman in "Lost Christianities" when he wrote, "Had it (proto-orthodox Christianity) not happened, one could argue, the vast majority of people in the world who adhere to Christianity - some two billion by some recent estimates, the largest religion on the planet - would still be pagans, adhering to one or another polytheistic religion." You are an example IMO of what is good in Christianity.
Yes, both religions are mutually exclusive. It is even amazing that we Christians and Muslims can dialogue like this when you think of how diametrically opposed these believe systems are. Ironically we share all the same prophets with the exception of one.
What you wrote reminded me of Quran 5:82 ... And you will find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud. Our differences seem large, but they can be boiled down to the deity of Jesus and the prophethood of Muhammad (saaws). In the end we make our choice then we live and die with the consequences thereof.
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Burninglight
02-05-2012, 04:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Mmhmm. This particular reference is in the Quran.
It seems Islam has had some infleuence on me then uhmmmmmm?
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
And what exactly is it about Islam do you think that is stabbing pretty hard at you?
Do I have to tell? Okay, for one. I never knew about the Bible problems until I had dealing with Islam. So Islam has shattered some of the ways I look at the Bible, but not the way I see Jesus.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
What is it that attracts you to this way of life?
People like those on the forum here. I have spoken with Muslim on youtube that have called me evey name in the book and every curse. You don't do that, and that attracts me to the religion also. I am learning new things I never knew about it. I want to lean more to be convince completely that it is not for me and help others see why I feel that way to give them a chance to explain why I am right or wrong. It is because I believe Islam is a very big powerful world religion it is not a cult like some people say. I like learning about it so I can tell people in my Christian community where they are wrong in there understanding of Islam. they think all Muslim are terrorist. I have to explain that they have preconceived ideas that they need to forget. I have influence in my community on people. I get angry when I hear someone say something that is not true about Islam or Christianity, but I will pull no punches when it comes to what is true. I can be a ****h finding things out. I have almost made pastors want to leave the pulpit because I challenge them on their views of the Bible. I can be wrong, but I am some what strongwilled. When I am convince something is true, I an tenacious as a pit bull. I lock on until something gives
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MustafaMc
02-05-2012, 05:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
In another place Allah also says "say not three" Since Allah never mentions the Holy Spirit, was his understanding of the three the father (God), Mary (the Mother) & Jesus (the Son)? I don't see in the Quran were there is an understanding of early Christian doctrine and belief of what the Scripture identify as God's nature.
No the 'three' are not defined in the Quran though it seems that Mary is portrayed as that third element as you indicated. The Quran 9:31 says They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! But, you may say, "Wait we Christians don't worship these people!" To Muslims the Catholic confessional that begins, "Father, forgive me for I have sinned." and their praying to the patron saints is a form of worship that should be reserved for Allah. The same applies to Mary. Muslims see that the Holy Spirit refers to the Angel Gabriel as indicated in the Quran.
Catholics pray to Mary till this day; they call her "The mother of God" Even the "Virgin of Guadalupe" and queen of heaven, but no where did the early church consider her the mother of God much less God nor did they pray to her or the saints. Not even the Catholics considered Mary to be God so why would Allah ask Jesus about him saying "Did you say take me and my mother (Mary) for two gods beside Allah?" and not mention the the Holy Spirit in that passage or anywhere in the Quran who is one of the three persons of the deity? WADR, this causes me not to take this verse from the Quran seriously. Christians have always believed the Holy Spirit is God even Catholics believe that. No Christians ever believe in 4 persons of the Godhead. I see this as a discrepancy. Maybe Uthman left out some scripture while recompiling the Quran, but if he didn't, than I have a major issue with that. IOW, if Mary were a god and jesus was a god and Allah is god what happened to the Holy Spirit who is God? Do you see my point or not? This hasn't been addressed clearly to me yet.
catholic.org says this about patron saints, "Patron saints are chosen as special protectors or guardians over areas of life. These areas can include occupations, illnesses, churches, countries, causes -- anything that is important to us." All of these areas of our lives are under the protection and guardianship of none other than Allah (swt) and to say otherwise is shirk.
BTW, I don't see myself a slave of God. Jesus said, "I call you friends? We are free ss Isaac was free born. Hagar was the bond woman with Ishmael
Yes, you see yourself as a son of God; whereas, I strive to be a servant of Allah as Jesus was referred to in Acts 3:13 (NASB, NIV).
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Burninglight
02-05-2012, 05:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
My opinion is reflected by none other than Bart Ehrman in "Lost Christianities" when he wrote, "Had it (proto-orthodox Christianity) not happened, one could argue, the vast majority of people in the world who adhere to Christianity - some two billion by some recent estimates, the largest religion on the planet - would still be pagans, adhering to one or another polytheistic religion." You are an example IMO of what is good in Christianity.
What you wrote reminded me of Quran 5:82 ... And you will find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud. Our differences seem large, but they can be boiled down to the deity of Jesus and the prophethood of Muhammad (saaws). In the end we make our choice then we live and die with the consequences thereof.
I am not sure what Erhman means by that quote or if I agree that is all it boils down to Jesus and Muhammad, but it is the biggest issue. So, what convinced you to be a Muslim really especially when all your family are Chrisitans?
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Who Am I?
02-05-2012, 05:34 AM
:sl:

I guess I'm jumping into this late.

I was raised as a Christian. I went to church as a kid and was educated in Christian schools in grades K-12. I learned all of the Bible stories. I memorized Scripture. I did all of the things that was expected of me as a Christian. I prayed to accept Jesus at a young age and "rededicated" my life to Christ several times as I grew older.

Anyway, despite all of this, I never really felt like I belonged anywhere. I never felt at peace with myself. I never really wanted to be a better man. I became disillusioned with the hypocrisy that I witnessed in the church. Eventually I rejected all religion and became an atheist for a time in my 20's.

I have struggled with self-esteem issues for a long time, and it was one reason that I never really felt like I belonged anywhere. I turned to alcohol and drugs for comfort. Eventually I finally realized that I couldn't live my life this way, and I began to search for the truth. This search led me to Islam.

I read Qur'an, and I still read my Bible. There are still a lot of good truths in the Bible, and I still respect my Christian background even though I don't believe that modern Christianity is the truth. I believe that Jesus was a great man who did great things. I believe that Jesus performed miracles and was a prophet and messenger of God. But I don't believe that Jesus was God.
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Burninglight
02-05-2012, 05:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
No the 'three' are not defined in the Quran though it seems that Mary is portrayed as that third element as you indicated. The Quran 9:31 says They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! But, you may say, "Wait we Christians don't worship these people!" To Muslims the Catholic confessional that begins, "Father, forgive me for I have sinned." and their praying to the patron saints is a form of worship that should be reserved for Allah. The same applies to Mary. Muslims see that the Holy Spirit refers to the Angel Gabriel as indicated in the Quran.
Okay, then even if he said we Christians worship the angel Jibril, that would have shown me there was an understanding of what Christians believe.
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
catholic.org says this about patron saints, "Patron saints are chosen as special protectors or guardians over areas of life. These areas can include occupations, illnesses, churches, countries, causes -- anything that is important to us." All of these areas of our lives are under the protection and guardianship of none other than Allah (swt) and to say otherwise is shirk.
That would be sin to me as well!
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Yes, you see yourself as a son of God; whereas, I strive to be a servant of Allah as Jesus was referred to in Acts 3:13 (NASB, NIV).
It almost make me look proud and you humble, but I don't mean that in a proud way. I am as servant/friend too in the right connotation they are both right. Jesus was a servant of his disciples, and we are to be to each other. Jesus washed their feet. "For the greatest among you will be your servant" We were servants but Jesus said we are now friends. Act 3:13 says that God exalted his servant Jesus so now that changed His status as it does ours to know God and make Him own.
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Aprender
02-05-2012, 07:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I know you don't Aprender. lol, your question is funny here. Why should the Christians back then go to hell? If they didn't believe Jesus is the son of God, they wouldn't be Christians. They would be Jews or Muslims or some other type of theist, but not Christian. To be a Christian one must have Jesus in there heart, and believe He is who he says he is in the Bible.
I wanted to address more here but I'll have to come back later, in shaa Allah. Early Christians would have been Jewish-Christians, not Muslims. And that is the definition of Christianity as you know it today, but back then that's not what it used to be. Earlier forms of Christian sects had different books of the bible that said different things about Jesus(pbuh) and different sets of beliefs that don't fit with what is now known as modern Christianity but these people still called themselves Christians. That's why I asked this question.

Excerpt from "Lost Christianities"
The Varieties of Ancient Christianity

The wide diversity of early Christianity may be seen above all in the theological beliefs embraced by people who understood themselves to be followers of Jesus. In the second and third centuries there were, of course, Christians who believed in one God. But there were others who insisted that there were two. Some said there were thirty. Others claimed there were 365.

In the second and third centuries there were Christians who believed that the Jewish Scripture (the Christian “Old Testament”) was inspired by the one true God. Others believed it was inspired by the God of the Jews, who was not the one true God. Others believed it was inspired by an evil deity. Others believed it was not inspired.

In the second and third centuries there were Christians who believed that Jesus’ death brought about the salvation of the world. There were other Christians who thought that Jesus’ death had nothing to do with the salvation of the world. There were yet other Christians who said that Jesus never died.

Also, I have been looking at your posts and when you refer to Allah (swt) you write he but when you refer to Jesus, you write he even though earlier you said that

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
God is ONE; there is no God but God. He is all powerful and just. We must one day stand before the GREAT JUDGE to give account for our lives.
The first part of that is the shahada.

And you said that you believe Jesus (pbuh) is just your defense attorney. So why do you refer to God with a lesser amount of respect than you do for Jesus(pbuh) when he is your defense attorney? In some of your posts you write He in reference to Jesus (pbuh) but he for God/Allah (swt). Just trying to get a better grasp from where you are coming from. That part I didn't quite understand. I just want to make sure I understand you completely so as not to make any assumptions and for more clarity. So you don't believe that Jesus is the begotten son of God, but you believe that he died for your sins? Correct?

Here is that book written by James about his brother Jesus (pbuh) I was telling you about that wasn't included in the bible. In it he didn't believe his brother was divine and because of this it wasn't included in what we have today in the Bible because it didn't correlate with the newer teachings that were put together.
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Burninglight
02-05-2012, 08:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Here is that book written by James about his brother Jesus (pbuh) I was telling you about that wasn't included in the bible. In it he didn't believe his brother was divine and because of this it wasn't included in what we have today in the Bible because it didn't correlate with the newer teachings that were put together
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, James 2 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. Jesus was James' Lord; his glorious Lord. Mine too.
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aadil77
02-05-2012, 09:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
It is impossible, IMO for the Bible to be corrupted to this degree. I am not able or willing to believe this because the Quran states that Allah made it appear that Jesus died. Why would Allah do such a thing knowing it was going to result in Christianity sending billions to hell???
Although brother MustafaMC has responded to you already I'd like to say that it should make no difference to christians or jews not knowing the truth about what happened to prophet Jesus. Simple fact is that the christians/jews at that time should have and probably did carry on worshipping the One God based on their previous revelations. By doing this they would still enter heaven. It was man's own fault to give Jesus divine attributes at the council of nicea which will have potentially caused billions of christians to go astray.
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MustafaMc
02-05-2012, 02:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Okay, then even if he said we Christians worship the angel Jibril, that would have shown me there was an understanding of what Christians believe.
I agree that this would seem logical. My perception is that the 'Holy Spirit' is the least well defined aspect of the Trinity. The original Nicean Creed of 325 ended with "And in the Holy Ghost", but in 381 it was expanded to say, "And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets." My perception is that the Christian focus in worship is on Jesus and secondarily on the Father as evidenced by the many songs in the Baptist Hymnal for example. I don't remember any songs where the Holy Spirit is even mentioned.
It almost make me look proud and you humble, but I don't mean that in a proud way.
I didn't mean it in a humble vs. pride point of view, but with regards to the intimacy of the relationship. My perspective is that Christians have a more 'personal relationship' with God through Jesus than Muslims do with Allah (swt). In my mind as a Muslim I am in a subservient relationship to my Creator as symbolized by our position of prostration in prayer. What comes to mind is the Wayne's World skit 'we are not worthy' by Wayne and Garth toward Alice Cooper http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh78T--ZUxY
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MustafaMc
02-05-2012, 03:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I am not sure what Erhman means by that quote
Bart wrote about the diversity among the groups of early Christians that could be loosely grouped as Ebionite (Christians who would be Jews, like Peter), Marconite (Christians who spurn all things Jewish including OT), Gnostic, and proto-Orthodox (seminal to Christianity as we know it today). Bart states, "From a historian's perspective, with all of the advantages and disadvantages of hindsight, it has to be admitted that it is difficult to imagine either of these (Ebionite or Marconite) groups establishing itself as one of the dominant religions, let alone the 'official' religion of the Roman Empire in the way proto-orthodox Christianity eventually did."
So, what convinced you to be a Muslim really especially when all your family are Chrisitans?
I read the Quran when I was in college and came to see the Islamic view of God and of Jesus was more logical. I stopped practicing Islam after about 3 years due to the conflicts with my family and coworkers, association of Muslims with terrorism in the media that I didn't agree with and an inability to find a Muslim wife. As I reached 40 I realized my own mortality, that I would one day die and have to stand before God to give an account for my life. I knew that it would be a weak excuse to say, "I didn't pray because some Muslim blew himself up along with innocent people and I didn't agree with that." That was in June 2001 and shortly after came 9/11 which was a severe test for me whether or not to stay the course I had chosen. Praise be to Allah, that He has willed that I have been consistent in my practice of Islam since 2001 and I even made pilgrimage to Mecca in 2010. In 2004, I legally changed my name to 'Mustafa' while retaining my father's first and last (Scottish) names.
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MustafaMc
02-05-2012, 03:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Who Am I?
Eventually I finally realized that I couldn't live my life this way, and I began to search for the truth. This search led me to Islam.
All praise and thanks be to Allah (swt).
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Abz2000
02-05-2012, 09:05 PM
i picked this book up at on of the book fairs a few years back, you may find it to be a useful insight in your search:

http://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/ih_books/single/en_Before_Nicea.pdf


may peace be upon you
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Who Am I?
02-05-2012, 09:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
All praise and thanks be to Allah (swt).
Alhamdullilah...
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Burninglight
02-06-2012, 01:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I read the Quran when I was in college and came to see the Islamic view of God and of Jesus was more logical. I stopped practicing Islam after about 3 years due to the conflicts with my family and coworkers, association of Muslims with terrorism in the media that I didn't agree with and an inability to find a Muslim wife. As I reached 40 I realized my own mortality, that I would one day die and have to stand before God to give an account for my life. I knew that it would be a weak excuse to say, "I didn't pray because some Muslim blew himself up along with innocent people and I didn't agree with that." That was in June 2001 and shortly after came 9/11 which was a severe test for me whether or not to stay the course I had chosen. Praise be to Allah, that He has willed that I have been consistent in my practice of Islam since 2001 and I even made pilgrimage to Mecca in 2010. In 2004, I legally changed my name to 'Mustafa' while retaining my father's first and last (Scottish) names.
Thankyou for sharing your testimony. I can see a lot of committment in your testimony. 9/11 had an adverse effect on me. People were blaming Muslims for being terroist, but that didn't sound right and fair to me. Now I know that not all Muslims are terrorist, but I couldn't deny that most terrorist in my life time have been Muslims and that bothered me especially when I think about what Jesus said, "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them" Verses like that would repell me from considering Islam over Christianity.
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Ramadhan
02-06-2012, 08:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
but I couldn't deny that most terrorist in my life time have been Muslims
You have made a very definitive statement, can you please back it up with evidence, facts, and statistics?
Because on the contrary, I see that most terrorists in my lifetime have been christians.

So, if Jesus (pbuh) truly said: "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them", then the fact that most terrorists are christians repel me from considering Christianity.
Not to mention that most child abusers among faith leaders are mostly christians.
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Who Am I?
02-06-2012, 05:59 PM
:sl:

Every religion has its nuts. There is no exception to this rule.

Don't judge a whole religion by the actions of a few misguided individuals. I know that not all Christians blow up abortion clinics or beat up gay people, just as I know that most Muslims are not suicide bombers.
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Burninglight
02-06-2012, 06:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Who Am I?
Every religion has its nuts. There is no exception to this rule.

Don't judge a whole religion by the actions of a few misguided individuals. I know that not all Christians blow up abortion clinics or beat up gay people, just as I know that most Muslims are not suicide bombers.
That is true. The term Christians is used to describe people that aren't really Christians a lot by the media. Muslims seem to think most of the west are Christians, but a very small percentage are and they don't blow up or beat up anyone. Jesus never taught violence; unlike the Quran, it states love your enemies. People who don't follow Jesus' teaching are not Christians for real
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
You have made a very definitive statement, can you please back it up with evidence, facts, and statistics?
Because on the contrary, I see that most terrorists in my lifetime have been christians.

So, if Jesus (pbuh) truly said: "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them", then the fact that most terrorists are christians repel me from considering Christianity.
Not to mention that most child abusers among faith leaders are mostly christians.
I guess this is not a good topic, and can open a can of worms not suitable for this forum.
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Who Am I?
02-06-2012, 06:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
That is true. The term Christians is used to describe people that aren't really Christians a lot by the media. Muslims seem to think most of the west are Christians, but a very small percentage are and they don't blow up or beat up anyone. Jesus never taught violence; unlike the Quran, it states love your enemies. People who don't follow Jesus' teaching are not Christians for real
I guess this is not a good topic, and can open a can of worms not suitable for this forum.
:sl:

This is simply because of the misconception of the US as a "Christian nation". There really is no such thing as a "Christian nation". Also, the different denominations of churches are generically called "Christian" when not all of them are. So yes, I agree with you here.
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Crystal
02-06-2012, 08:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
In another place Allah also says "say not three" Since Allah never mentions the Holy Spirit, was his understanding of the three the father (God), Mary (the Mother) & Jesus (the Son)?
O people of the Scripture (Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah'Îsa(Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh ) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. say not: "three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (4:171)
Actually Allah does mention the holy spirit in that verse. I believe Allah is reinforcing the fact that he created Jesus and the spirit here as he immediately says after spirit that He (Allah) created the spirit - I do not believe Mary is the subject of the trinity here. In another verse Mary is mentioned specfically with regards to worshipping her however in that verse (which is 5:116) the word trinity is not mentioned and it is a well known fact that people worshipped Mary as many still do today.
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Aprender
02-06-2012, 09:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
That is true. The term Christians is used to describe people that aren't really Christians a lot by the media. Muslims seem to think most of the west are Christians, but a very small percentage are and they don't blow up or beat up anyone. Jesus never taught violence; unlike the Quran, it states love your enemies. People who don't follow Jesus' teaching are not Christians for real
Astagfirullah, this makes you sound very self-righteous and I hope that you don't really mean it in that way. :hmm: And I won't get started on what you said about people who don't follow Jesus not being real Christians...I must digress.

You don't know what the Quran says. You haven't read it. I live in the West, born and raised in the United States to be exact. Muslims are in the West. We know what goes on here. Muslims are all over the world. It's not wise to make blanket statements like "Muslims seem to think most of the West are Christians." Maybe some who live outside of it but not all. In fact, Muslims have been in America since before America was even a sovereign nation. And yes, the Amish don't go around blowing anyone up but your biased views and spiteful dialogue aren't any better than any other form of bigotry. I would refrain from using that word because it can be loaded as it's commonly associated with right-wing Republican extremists, which is not what I think of you, but the core definition of it still stands. From what I gather here you are not even trying to understand or see anything from the Muslim point of view. You basically said that you'd become an agnostic before you submitted yourself to One God alone and became a Muslim.

The more we talk and dialogue with you, I don't feel that you are here to really, truly, sincerely learn about Islam at all anymore. Instead, it seems like you're here to try and confirm some of the suspicions that you've been indoctrinated with, and reject Islam because you don't want to accept it as the truth. You haven't been thorough.

Based on your posts here, you haven't read a biography about the Prophet Muhammad (saws), you haven't interacted with actual Muslims off of the internet, you haven't visited a mosque, you haven't bothered to pick up an English translation of the Quran and read it. You haven't read any books to see how Muslims view the prophets, peace be upon them all, you haven't studied the way hadith are authenticated, when I asked if you studied any other religions, you didn't respond so I don't know if you've actually even ever studied any of the other religions out there either. You're uncomfortable with the idea that Islam is here and you think that every other Christian that converts to Islam is condemned or we weren't really Christians in the first place. You don't know what the life and experiences are like for people who don't necessarily believe in what you believe in and you can't force anyone to. But just because someone has a different view of Allah than you do, doesn't make them wrong. I think you need to open your eyes and become more tolerant and understanding. You're being hard and judgemental of other people for being guided to what they consider the truth but just because you don't see it, doesn't make them wrong. Open your eyes and at least try to understand that much. The fact is that Islam is still the fastest growing religion in the world despite all of the hatred and animosity towards it. Muslims are not perfect. We know that we are sinful and that's why we pray to Allah each and every day to forgive us for our sins and we strive to become better people by following His religion and making sure we do actions that will be pleasing to the Creator. Alhamdulillahi rabbil alameeen.

If someone was holding a gun in the face of my Christian or Jewish sister or brother and if I was in a position to stop that one from pulling the trigger then in shaa Allah I would--not turn the other cheek and watch them die.

You are rejecting Islam without even actually studying it. What you are doing here on this forum with other members is not research. This is merely a starting point. You have to get off the computer and step into reality. We all have a lot to learn.

Before I read a translation of the Quran, I heard from non-Muslims that it was a terrible book and everything about it was wrong and barbaric and there was nothing in it that spoke of LOVE, FORGIVENESS and MERCY. After reading the Quran, I found that the book was filled with verses about love, forgiveness, righteousness and mercy. A few...

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in God and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the pious. (al-Baqarah 2:177)

O ye who believe! When ye conspire together, conspire not together for crime and wrongdoing and disobedience toward the messenger, but conspire together for righteousness and piety, and keep your duty toward God, unto whom ye will be gathered. (al-Mujadalah 58:9)

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).(al-Hujurat 49:13)

Ye will not attain unto righteousness until ye spend of that which ye love. And whatsoever ye spend, God is Aware thereof. (Al ‘Imran 3:92)

Say: O My slaves who have been prodigal to their own hurt! Despair not of the mercy of God, Who forgiveth all sins. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Compassionate. (al-Zumar 39:53)

Hadith
“May he who believes in God and the Last Day do no harm to his neighbor, and may he who believes in God and the Last Day honor his guest, and may he who believes in God and the Last Day say what is good or keep silent.”
-Sahih al-Bukhari no. 6087

“The best of you are those with the most virtuous character.”
Sahih al-Bukhari no. 3599

“None of you believe until you desire for your brother what you desire for yourself.”
Sahih al-Bukhari no. 13

The Prophet said that God said, “Son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. Son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. Son of Adam, were you to come to Me with faults nearly equaling the earth and were you then to meet Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly equaling the earth.”
Sunan al-Tirmidhi no. 3885

I'm not exactly sure where this discussion is going any more since people have showed you videos and answered your initial questions on why Christians revert to Islam and I'm sorry that their reasons weren't good enough for you.

Now, I think it's best for you to actually study the Islamic religion and maybe that would help you understand why. Even if you don't become a Muslim, at least you would be able to understand why and ease some of your discomfort.
Reply

Burninglight
02-06-2012, 09:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Who Am I?
This is simply because of the misconception of the US as a "Christian nation". There really is no such thing as a "Christian nation". Also, the different denominations of churches are generically called "Christian" when not all of them are. So yes, I agree with you here.
It is really nice to see a Muslim that realizes this. Thanks For sharing that.
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
02-06-2012, 09:44 PM
Greetings of peace

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Jesus never taught violence; unlike the Quran, it states love your enemies. People who don't follow Jesus' teaching are not Christians for real

Nor did Muhammad (p) teach violence..


Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidence, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land! [Al Qur'aan 5:32]

You see, if the Qur'aan taught violence, it would have indeed not mentioned something like what has been mentioned in the above verse. I'm sure the verses your referring to in regards to violence are not actually considered 'violent', but anyone can take a verse out of context and claim it to mean what it actually does not, have you really studied the Qur'aan and the particular verse for what it actually means..If not, can you explain why you would make such a statement?

Please provide your evidence and back it up with sound statements God willingly .. Firstly, have you read the Qur'aan from page 1 to the last? Have you studied each and every verse? When it was sent, why it was sent, to whom it was sent? Do you know all of this? Studied the ahadeeth - The sayings of the prophet Muhammad (p), read each and every saying? etc etc?

Because I honestly fail to realise how one can have done all this and come to a conclusion simply stating what you have, where they've not provided no evidence either.

Also, Muslims who do not follow Jesus (p) are also not considered muslims either.
Reply

GuestFellow
02-06-2012, 10:15 PM
Salaam,

Quality, not quantity.
Reply

Burninglight
02-06-2012, 10:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Astagfirullah, this makes you sound very self-righteous and I hope that you don't really mean it in that way. And I won't get started on what you said about people who don't follow Jesus not being real Christians...I must digress.
No, I don't mean it that way. People who don't follow Jesus are not real Christians to me. I don't see how that makes me sounds self-righteousness. I don't know that God sees me as one of the elect Christians. I just know by faith that my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, and I try to follow Jesus, but fail often more often than you'd care to know.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
You don't know what the Quran says. You haven't read it. I live in the West, born and raised in the United States to be exact. Muslims are in the West. We know what goes on here. Muslims are all over the world. It's not wise to make blanket statements like "Muslims seem to think most of the West are Christians." Maybe some who live outside of it but not all.
Okay, I accept that correction, but you are right that most Muslims if not all outside of the US think that from my experience of speaking with them. It is sad. As far as what I know about the Quran, I know enough to say there is nothing in it that says love your enemies, but that is in the Bible. Only God can give us the grace to love our enemies. It was Jesus' command!
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
...it seems like you're here to try and confirm some of the suspicions that you've been indoctrinated with, and reject Islam because you don't want to accept it as the truth. You haven't been thorough.
Aprender, you're being a little harsh with me. I am trying to be as thorough as I know on a comparative religion thread. My head is spinning with all the research I am doing comparing what all have written about the life death and resurrection of Jesus. It just should NOT be that difficult to know what the truth is, but it is like searching for gold. I honestly am searching as much as I can. Are you saying I am not wanting to learn about Islam because I don't agree with what many say about Christianity? If yes, you are dead wrong. I have set a lot of people straight on their horrible misconceptions about Islam. With Muslims I appear as a skeptic which I am, but with non-Muslims and Christians I appear as an advocate for Islam because of what I have learned from Muslims like you.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
you haven't visited a mosque, you haven't bothered to pick up an English translation of the Quran and read it. You haven't read any books to see how Muslims view the prophets, peace be upon them all, you haven't studied the way hadith are authenticated, when I asked if you studied any other religions, you didn't respond so I don't know if you've actually even ever studied any of the other religions out there either. You're uncomfortable with the idea that Islam is here and you think that every other Christian that converts to Islam is condemned or we weren't really Christians in the first place.
first of all I did visit a Mosque but it was closed; it is far from my house. I have two Qurans in English and their is also internet access. I know more about Islam than i know about any other religion with the exception of Christianity. I am not uncomfortable with the idea that Islam is here. I accept that. I am frustrated that I cannot see what Christian converts see that I don't. Well whether converts were really Christian or not I don't know, but yes, I am hard pressed to believe that to be the case, and Muslims believe that Chrisitans that believe Jesus is the Son of God are condemned; so, how are you different there? Why are you trying to make this about me. I don't take any of your comments that come against the Bible as personal. What have I shared that is not true about Islam that I haven't recanted when shown to be wrong???
I just want the truth, but you cannot discover that for me. I have to find it myself! Right now, I believe that Jesus did died and rised from the dead, and I know He predicted is death three times, It is documented in the Book of Luke who I believe wrote it. Show me where Muhammad said the Bible is corrupted.
Peace
Reply

Aprender
02-06-2012, 11:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Aprender, you're being a little harsh with me. I am trying to be as thorough as I know on a comparative religion thread. My head is spinning with all the research I am doing comparing what all have written about the life death and resurrection of Jesus. It just should NOT be that difficult to know what the truth is, but it is like searching for gold. I honestly am searching as much as I can. Are you saying I am not wanting to learn about Islam because I don't agree with what many say about Christianity? If yes, you are dead wrong. I have set a lot of people straight on their horrible misconceptions about Islam. With Muslims I appear as a skeptic which I am, but with non-Muslims and Christians I appear as an advocate for Islam because of what I have learned from Muslims like you.
It is not my intention to be harsh with you. I know, it's hard to tell those things when you are writing over the internet and not speaking in person. That's why I keep asking you all of those questions to see exactly where you are coming from. I try my best not to make assumptions so forgive me if what I wrote made it seem that way.

I'm not saying that you don't want to learn about Islam because of what people are saying about Christianity and you disagree with it, it's just that, based on some of your posts, it seems like you completely ignore the Islamic perspective and say that it's wrong because Christianity says another thing. I know, that is your belief system but you have to have an open mind and try to understand why people believe in the way that they do. That's all I meant by that. I think that'll help you understand your initial question. You might not agree, it might not be for you right now but at least you'd be able to understand their position.

Personally, I don't know who is condemned. That knowledge is with Allah (swt) alone. As I said to you before, I'm glad you ask questions. And I'm glad you're learning. I'll leave you to your studies.

Some of the more knowledgeable members will be able to help answer your other questions or direct you to someone who can, in shaa Allah.
Reply

Who Am I?
02-06-2012, 11:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
It is really nice to see a Muslim that realizes this. Thanks For sharing that.
:sl:

For what it's worth, I was raised as a Christian throughout all of my childhood into my adult life, so I know a thing or two about Christians. My parents are Christians. Most of my friends are Christians. I still have a lot of respect for Christians and my Christian upbringing, even if I don't agree with all of it.
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Ramadhan
02-06-2012, 11:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I guess this is not a good topic, and can open a can of worms not suitable for this forum.
I see that every time your statement is challenged and refuted, you either stopped the conversation or pretended you did not read it.

So, are you here for the truth or for trolling?

Let's face it: There have been more christians terrorists in the past 2,000 years than the rest of religions combined, and there have been more christian leaders child abusers than the rest of the religions combined.

Reply

AhlaamBella
02-07-2012, 12:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

Let's face it: There have been more christians terrorists in the past 2,000 years than the rest of religions combined, and there have been more christian leaders child abusers than the rest of the religions combined.

So, are you now going to follow Jesus (pbuh) command, and leave christianity for the truth which is Islam?

I don't see how the behaviour of people is a valid reason to judge a belief system. :hmm:

Look what happens when people judge Islam by the behaviour of Muslims!!
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Ramadhan
02-07-2012, 12:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AhlaamBella
I don't see how the behaviour of people is a valid reason to judge a belief system.

Look what happens when people judge Islam by the behaviour of Muslims!!
I totally agree with you, sister.

I was only giving burninglight his own version of truth.
Burninglight believes that truth should be judged by its followers, so by that notion if he's consistent and not being hypocrite, he should leave christianity immediately.


Reply

MustafaMc
02-07-2012, 12:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Now I know that not all Muslims are terrorist, but I couldn't deny that most terrorist in my life time have been Muslims and that bothered me especially when I think about what Jesus said, "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them" Verses like that would repell me from considering Islam over Christianity.
Quoting from one of my posts on another thread, "You obviously came here with a lot of preconceived ideas about Islam that apparently were derived from Christian sources that have striven to 'dig up dirt' on and to slander Islam."

You can probably tell from my 'testimony' that 9/11 led to a lot of soul searching on my behalf to decide if I wanted to continue on my chosen path. I did not and still do not support those who were the perpetrators of this event nor have I ever met a single Muslim who said it was justified or who was happy that the Twin Towers collapsed killing 3,000 innocent people. If you care to read it, here is the speech that I gave to in a local synagogue on the 10th anniversary of this tragic day http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...ml#post1462739

What you probably don't realize is that along with that soul searching I have also studied a lot about the details of that tragic day, perhaps more than any other person on this forum. I am not an engineer or an architect, but these people are: http://www.ae911truth.org/ I came across this site as a result of my studies on 9/11. This and other sites present evidences that are not congruent with plane-induced collapse:

Evidence of explosive top-down destruction of WTC1 & 2
1. High technology explosive, nanothermite, in WTC dust http://www.benthamscience.com/open/t...002/7TOCPJ.htm
2. Iron-rich microspheres (signature thermite residue) in WTC dust documented by the US Geological Survey and RJ LeeGroup
3. Small human bone fragments on roof of 41 story Deutsche Bank
4. Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete and steel in pyroclastic-like cloud
5. 1,200 ft debris field and no pancaked floors

Evidence of implosive destruction of 47-story WTC7 not hit by a plane
1. Symmetrical collapse at free-fall acceleration – support beams not there
2. Video indistinguishable from video of known implosions
3. Foreknowledge with media stating it had collapsed with live picture of it standing in background

Now, there may be some logical explanation for these evidences and points, but, if they are true and not fabricated, then the 9/11 picture is a lot more complex than just '19 Muslim terrorists with box-cutters’. Could the questions implicated here also raise possible doubts about the veracity of other acts of ‘Islamic terrorism’ including the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing?
Reply

Abz2000
02-07-2012, 12:59 AM
yes, burning light, if you chose to go by the magnified and hysterical mass media concoctions - many of which have been proven false-flags,

you may wonder why people don't have a picture of hitler every time they use the term Christian.
it wouldn't mean a thing, first thing you'd have to do is see if these acts are justified by Islam, and if not, then look into the motive behind the generalizations and psychological associations made by the lamestream media.
Reply

Burninglight
02-07-2012, 02:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Quoting from one of my posts on another thread, "You obviously came here with a lot of preconceived ideas about Islam that apparently were derived from Christian sources that have striven to 'dig up dirt' on and to slander Islam."

You can probably tell from my 'testimony' that 9/11 led to a lot of soul searching on my behalf to decide if I wanted to continue on my chosen path. I did not and still do not support those who were the perpetrators of this event nor have I ever met a single Muslim who said it was justified or who was happy that the Twin Towers collapsed killing 3,000 innocent people. If you care to read it, here is the speech that I gave to in a local synagogue on the 10th anniversary of this tragic day (10 Years after the Most Traumatic Day in American History)http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...ml#post1462739

What you probably don't realize is that along with that soul searching I have also studied a lot about the details of that tragic day, perhaps more than anyother person on this forum. I am not an engineer or an architect, but these people are: http://www.ae911truth.org/ I came across this site as a result of my studies on 9/11. This and other sites present evidences that are not congruent with plane-induced collapse:

Evidence of explosive top-down destruction of WTC1 & 2
1. High technology explosive, nanothermite, in WTC dust http://www.benthamscience.com/open/t...002/7TOCPJ.htm
2. Iron-rich microspheres (signature thermite residue) in WTC dust documented by the US Geological Survey and RJ LeeGroup
3. Small human bone fragments on roof of 41 story Deutsche Bank
4. Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete and steel inpyroclastic-like cloud
5. 1,200 ft debris field and no pancaked floors

Evidence of implosive destruction of 47-story WTC7 not hit by a plane
1. Symmetrical collapse at free-fall acceleration – support beams not there
2. Video indistinguishable from video of known implosions
3. Foreknowledge with media stating it had collapsed with live picture ofit standing in background

Now, there may be some logical explanation for these evidences and points, but, if they are true and not fabricated, then the 9/11 picture is a lot more complex than just ’19 Muslim terrorists with box-cutters’. Could the questions implicated here also raise possible doubts about the veracity of other acts of ‘Islamic terrorism’ including the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing.
Just a quick note. My younger brother from the same mother and father got caught in the debri of the towers as they came down. he saw the whole thing people jumping from the towers splashing on the ground and glass cutting people in half and decapating others.

He survived walking home across the Williamsburg bridge into Brooklyn where we're from in NY., but he has to see doctors for his lungs breathing in asbsestos, and he had to have two hip replacemments running from the smoke fire and debri as it came down. That didn't help his legs. I will read your testimony further.

Yes, I have been fed a lot from the media, but I can see Muslim are very nice people like you and everyone on the forum. I don't see them as terrorist at all. Radical ones in the middle east I can't vouche for. I would like to add, it is not hard for me to believe that those commerical airliners full of fuel could bring down those towers, not in the slightlest.
Reply

Ramadhan
02-07-2012, 03:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Just a quick note. My younger brother from the same mother and father got caught in the debri of the towers as they came down. he saw the whole thing people jumping from the towers splashing on the ground and glass cutting people in half and decapating others.

He survived walking home across the Williamsburg bridge into Brooklyn where we're from in NY., but he has to see doctors for his lungs breathing in asbsestos, and he had to have two hip replacemments running from the smoke fire and debri as it came down. That didn't help his legs. I will read your testimony further.
Now you see how people can be killed by terrorists, and so you certainly can side with the muslims how innocent people are killed by israelis and americans in the middle east?

Or are you ignoring the fact that multiple more muslims are killed and being killed in the middle east by christians and jews than the other way around?

so, using your belief, does this mean that christianity encourage people to kill?
Reply

Burninglight
02-07-2012, 03:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
I was only giving burninglight his own version of truth.
Burninglight believes that truth should be judged by its followers, so by that notion if he's consistent and not being hypocrite, he should leave christianity immediately.
I don't think you understand what my version of truth is. That is a strange thing to say coming from a moderator. I had made a comment on the way I felt in the past not now. Besides, since you want to open that can of worms. Let me say I know Christians did a lot of horrible things in the name of Christ, but that is not true Christianity, and it is not that way now. We are talking about contemporary times. Do you think the terror is stopped? You wait until the next world terror attack comes. It will happen in our generation. I believe the Lord is showing me this. Lets see if it will be coming from a Muslim or a Christian. Don't call the American government Christians, becuase they are the ones who took Bible and prayer and the ten commandements out of our institutions
Reply

Who Am I?
02-07-2012, 03:41 AM
:sl:

Of course, you're assuming that 9/11 actually was an attack by Muslim terrorists. I'm not convinced that it was, personally. They were terrorists, I'll grant you, but I'm not convinced that they were Muslims and not just operatives hired by or working for the government.
Reply

Burninglight
02-07-2012, 03:44 AM
I am burned out can't deal with the name calling and accusations; so, I am back to PMs. Sorry, I know some of you are happy to see me stop posting . You got your wish
:omg:
Reply

MustafaMc
02-07-2012, 04:06 AM
While we are on the subject, this video 'Terrorist!!! - Just a Word' came to my mind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRgKH0j3yoE
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Ramadhan
02-07-2012, 04:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I don't think you understand what my version of truth is.
This is your belief and you wrote it:
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I couldn't deny that most terrorist in my life time have been Muslims and that bothered me especially when I think about what Jesus said, "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them" Verses like that would repell me from considering Islam over Christianity.
So you clearly you judged the truth by the actions of people who adhere to that truth.
You even clearly stated that you are repelled from considering Islam because "most terrorists are muslims".

I have shown you that there were more christian terrorists and child abusers in the past 2,000 years. So, if you truly believe in your own principle, then you should be repelled from considering christianity.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Let me say I know Christians did a lot of horrible things in the name of Christ, but that is not true Christianity,
So, when christians did a lost of horrible things in the name christ, that is not true christianity, but when muslims did horrible things then they must be true Islam?

Have you ever considered that you are being a hypocrite and double standard?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
We are talking about contemprorary times.
Do you want to talk contemporary times?
I can give you evidence how christians in the name of Christ did unspeakable terrors and killed millions in Rwanda, the Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan, Maluku, Sulawesi tengah, etc.

Let's bring it on.
Reply

Burninglight
02-08-2012, 12:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
This is your belief and you wrote it:


I couldn't deny that most terrorist in my life time have been Muslims and that bothered me especially when I think about what Jesus said, "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them" Verses like that would repell me from considering Islam over Christianity.
So you clearly you judged the truth by the actions of people who adhere to that truth.
You even clearly stated that you are repelled from considering Islam because "most terrorists are muslims".

I have shown you that there were more christian terrorists and child abusers in the past 2,000 years. So, if you truly believe in your own principle, then you should be repelled from considering christianity.

Have you ever considered that you are being a hypocrite and double standard?
Okay, I can concede that I had been influence by media about Islam. Many Christians and non believers see Islam as a terrorist religion. I used to, but not anymore. They teach that the Quran says to kill the unbelievers, and I had been influenced by those rumors, but I'll say it again though, true Christians don't do those things like Hitler did and what was done in Rwanda etc.

The NT Christianity teaches to love your enemies. So anyone who commits terror acts is not of God for by their fruits you shall know them regardless of what religion they claim to be. I see no Hypocrisy in what I said. Maybe the WTC was a American government conspired act to blame Muslims. We are living in a confusing time; where the truth is hidden.

I meant to say most terrorist acts I have seen in this country have been done by those professing to be Muslims but I also meant to say and you left that part of the quote out that I don't think that anymore.
Reply

Burninglight
02-08-2012, 01:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
So you clearly you judged the truth by the actions of people who adhere to that truth.
You even clearly stated that you are repelled from considering Islam because "most terrorists are muslims".
So are you saying terrorist acts are truth and the truth of what people adhere to? If yes, then yes, I judge those that adhere to that truth.

That quote isn't my exact arrangement of words; therefore, you should not have put quotation marks on it as coming from me. It almost makes it sound like I am saying that most Muslims are terrorist. Very, very few of the Muslim population have been terrorist, and that has been what affected my worldview at one time and maybe still does to a point because of the recent WTC bombing that happened in my backyard.
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Burninglight
02-08-2012, 01:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Who Am I?
:sl:

Of course, you're assuming that 9/11 actually was an attack by Muslim terrorists. I'm not convinced that it was, personally. They were terrorists, I'll grant you, but I'm not convinced that they were Muslims and not just operatives hired by or working for the government.
That is possible; God knows and He will judge
Reply

Burninglight
02-08-2012, 01:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Yes, I have been fed a lot from the media, but I can see Muslim are very nice people like you and everyone on the forum. I don't see them as terrorist at all. Radical ones in the middle east I can't vouche for. I would like to add, it is not hard for me to believe that those commerical airliners full of fuel could bring down those towers, not in the slightlest.
You are mind quoting me. You have to balance what I am saying. Why didn't you quote this along with what I said?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
I have shown you that there were more christian terrorists and child abusers in the past 2,000 years. So, if you truly believe in your own principle, then you should be repelled from considering christianity.
I didn't clearly see this and I don't clearly see what Islam does. Only God clearly sees and knows and can acurately judge
Reply

Ramadhan
02-08-2012, 03:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I didn't clearly see this and I don't clearly see what Islam does. Only God clearly sees and knows and can acurately judge
You keep contradicting your own beliefs and truth.

You kept saying that the truth can be judged by their followers, and you belief that Islam is not the truth because you believe that there are now muslim terorrists.

I am turning the table on you: there are christians terorrists and there are christians killers and you asked for contemporary examples.

I gave you christian priests child abusers, are they not contemporary enough for you?

You keep throwing out false statements without evidence about Islam, and when we refuted with evidence, your only reply is: "I don't clealry see what Islam does"

and when we gave you statements WITH evidence about christianity, such as contradictions in bible, evidence of christian terrorists, child abusers, your response is: "Only God clealry sees and knows".
Reply

Ramadhan
02-08-2012, 03:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
So are you saying terrorist acts are truth and the truth of what people adhere to? If yes, then yes, I judge those that adhere to that truth.

Why are you twisting my words?
For what purpose?

If you claim to have the truth, you don't need to twist anyone else's words.

Terrorists break many commands of Allah in the Qur'an, and among the most basic: Those who kill an innocent is as if they kill while humanity.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
That quote isn't my exact arrangement of words; therefore, you should not have put quotation marks on it as coming from me. It almost makes it sound like I am saying that most Muslims are terrorist. Very, very few of the Muslim population have been terrorist, and that has been what affected my worldview at one time and maybe still does to a point because of the recent WTC bombing that happened in my backyard.
Again, I will quote you verbatim and not changed anything, and this is what you believe in:

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Now I know that not all Muslims are terrorist, but I couldn't deny that most terrorist in my life time have been Muslims and that bothered me especially when I think about what Jesus said, "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them" Verses like that would repell me from considering Islam over Christianity.
So you CLEARLY and EXPLICITLY judge the truth from the action of people who claim to follow the truth.

Now, I have given you contemporary examples about child abusing christians priests who are regarded by christians as Jesus' representatives.
Reply

Who Am I?
02-08-2012, 04:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
That is possible; God knows and He will judge
This is true, brother.

Anyway, for a long time I was deceived by the Western media's portrayal of Islam as a demon religion, and its followers as a fanatic death cult that would stop at nothing until I was dead. I joined everyone else in mocking the Prophet, and decrying Allah as a false god. I was even a member of a white supremacist forum at one time and delighted in making fun of Arabs.

I still have some recordings and some writings I did from that time, in which I ranted about Islam consistently. I debated whether or not to even keep them, but I have kept them and occasionally listen to or read them. Not because I am proud of what I said, but as a reminder of who I used to be, and who I am no longer. I don't want to forget that time, and I don't want to pretend that it never happened. I am living proof of the mercy of Allah. The unbeliever who once hated Muslims and is now a follower of Allah...
Reply

Burninglight
02-08-2012, 04:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Who Am I?
I am living proof of the mercy of Allah. The unbeliever who once hated Muslims and is now a follower of Allah...
Powerful testimony. I guess you can understand me except I am not extreme as you were, but I do find testimonies like yours interesting, because I am trying to understand what you see and others like you that I don't about Islam. I just don't see how it has more to offer than Christianity. I denfintely don't hate Muslims. I can say I never did; thank God for that.
Reply

Ramadhan
02-08-2012, 04:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I just don't see how it has more to offer than Christianity.
There are plenty more that Islam offer than christianity does.

For one thing, we don't worship creation.
Reply

Burninglight
02-08-2012, 04:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Why are you twisting my words?
For what purpose?

If you claim to have the truth, you don't need to twist anyone else's words.
I didn't twist your words I ask you a question for clarification. If you are speaking truth, you would see I didn't twist your words but asked is that what you are saying. Read and see the question mark after my comment and look to see what you said that cause me to ask the question.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Now, I have given you contemporary examples about child abusing christians priests who are regarded by christians as Jesus' representatives.
What examples have you given of true Christians that really know the Lord Jesus as their Lord and Savior. You have mentioned nominal Christians. That means Christians that are in name only or wolves dress in sheeps clothing. You will not find a true adherhent of Jesus' teachings commit terrorist acts. In the Bible, Jesus teaches love your enemies. What does Muhammad say about your enemies or the infidel?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
So you CLEARLY and EXPLICITLY judge the truth from the action of people who claim to follow the truth.
I clearly judge truth by peoples actions? No, I judge the actions not the truth. Jesus said a good tree produces good fruit and a bad tree brings bad fruit. A tree is known by it's fruit. A good tree cannot bring bad fruit nor can a bad tree bring good fruit. Religion is not a good thing to me, because I believe it nailed Jesus to the cross. A person's religion is what they do. To be a true Biblical Christian one must have relationship with God not religion. Religion is dangerous in my opinion, and it has been the result of more blood shed in all the world wars combined.

Now you keep quoting something I said when I tried to clarify what I meant several times. You don't mention my clarification. I didn't say most Muslims are terrorist. I said that I cannot deny that most terrorist in my worldview have been Muslims, but what is 100 Muslims out of 2 billion. It is almost insignificant, but you are trying to make a mole hill into a mountain and that bothers me. But I cannot help but think that the 100 Muslims terrorist I read and heard about through my life time were trying to follow in Islam as one of the elect by giving their lives for Allah. What are they understanding from Islam that can cause them to think they had no other recourse like maybe pray to God instead of taking matter into their own hands. Yes, things like that made me doubt Islam for myself over Christianity.

You said my quote is what I believe in even after I said I may have been brainwashed by the media. My quote is not what I believe in. I don't believe in my quotes. I believe in Jesus' quotes.
Reply

Burninglight
02-08-2012, 05:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
You keep contradicting your own beliefs and truth.

You kept saying that the truth can be judged by their followers, and you belief that Islam is not the truth because you believe that there are now muslim terorrists
I said no such thing. You are making inferences of what I said, meant and believe. Let me explain, it is what is true of ones actions as they practice their faith that is the fruit of what they follow, and that can be use to make a judgment regardless what religion one tries to follow. The religion in this case is the tree. The fruit determines whether the tree is good or bad.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
I am turning the table on you: there are christians terorrists and there are christians killers and you asked for contemporary examples.

I gave you christian priests child abusers, are they not contemporary enough for you?
If there are Christian terrorist, they are not following the teaching of Jesus that says to love your enemies. IOW, they are not doing it as a result of trying to obey Scriptures or practice their faith; they do it in spite of it. And the same with Catholic priest that are pedophiles; you will find them in every religion but they don't do that because there religion teaches them that; they do it because they are depraved and given to lust and sin. And those types of sins have no place in Christianity or Islam!
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
You keep throwing out false statements without evidence about Islam, and when we refuted with evidence, your only reply is: "I don't clealry see what Islam does"
What false statments?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
and when we gave you statements WITH evidence about christianity, such as contradictions in bible, evidence of christian terrorists, child abusers, your response is: "Only God clealry sees and knows".
Contradictions you speak of doesn't prove wholesale corruption of the Scriptures. Muhammad never said they were corrupted. I have explained to you about child abuse. You will find that everywhere and in all religions, but people don't do that because they think it pleases God or Allah! It makes a difference, if you didn't know
Reply

Ramadhan
02-08-2012, 05:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I didn't twist your words I ask you a question for clarification. If you are speaking truth, you would see I didn't twist your words but asked is that what you are saying. Read and see the question mark after my comment and look to see what you said that cause me to ask the question.
You should read what I wrote. Did I ever say that muslim terrorists represent what is contained in Islam and commanded by God (swt) through Islam.
You yourselves are insinuating that.

Please do not twist my own words.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
What examples have you given of true Christians that really know the Lord Jesus as their Lord and Savior. You have mentioned nominal Christians. That means Christians that are in name only or wolves dress in sheeps clothing. You will not find a true adherhent of Jesus' teachings commit terrorist acts. In the Bible, Jesus teaches love your enemies. What does Muhammad say about your enemies or the infidel?
Ok, so according to you, every single christian who commit evil and perform crimes are not true christians?
So these millions christians are christians in name only?

So these christians organizations in the USA who supported evil acts of christians in places such as sulawesi tengah, Sudan, maluku, etc are not real christians?

can you tell me an example of one single true christian?

because I cannot find any single christian who would be willingly to offer their left cheek.

does a "true christian" even exist?

God (swt) through His prophets (pbut) taught us to be just with our enemies, that we must not transgress, and that forgiveness is much more honorable.


format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I clearly judge truth by peoples actions? No, I judge the actions not the truth.
That's not what you said. Let me copy paste again what you wrote:

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Now I know that not all Muslims are terrorist, but I couldn't deny that most terrorist in my life time have been Muslims and that bothered me especially when I think about what Jesus said, "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them" Verses like that would repell me from considering Islam over Christianity.
You do not want to even consider that Islam may be the truth just because the actions of people who claim they are muslims.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Jesus said a good tree produces good fruit and a bad tree brings bad fruit. A tree is known by it's fruit. A good tree cannot bring bad fruit nor can a bad tree bring good fruit.
I have shown you that people whom christians consider as God and Jesus' representatives are child abusers.
They are the fruit. so according to your own belief, christianity must be bad tree, because it produced bad fruits.

I am only giving you your own medicine and applying your own principles to what you believe in.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
To be a true Biblical Christian one must have relationship with God not religion.
Can you give me who/what is true biblical christians?
So catholics, orthodox, baptist, protestants, etc are not true biblical christians?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Now you keep quoting something I said when I tried to clarify what I meant several times. You don't mention my clarification. I didn't say most Muslims are terrorist. I said that I cannot deny that most terrorist in my worldview have been Muslims, but what is 100 Muslims out of 2 billion. It is almost insignificant, but you are trying to make a mole hill into a mountain and that bothers me.
It's your won statement.
You did not ask for clarification. If you did, you would have asked questions, but that's not what you did. And if you were truly asking for clarification, you would have opened a thread in the clarification about Islam by now.
You clealry said that you do not even consider that Islam is the truth because the actions of a few people who claimed they were muslims.
Please do not twist this around.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
But I cannot help but think that the 100 Muslims terrorist I read and heard about through my life time were trying to follow in Islam as one of the elect by giving their lives for Allah. What are they understanding in Islam that can cause them to think they had no other recourse like pray to God instead of taking matter into their own hands. Yes, things like that made me doubt Islam for myself over Christianity.
You claim you do not judge the truth, and only the actions.
and yet again and again, you judge Islam by the actions of few people whom media reported as blowing up buildings and killing innocents as muslims.
You have no evidence at all that those muslims did those things in the name of Allah or that the perpetrators were even muslims.

I don't know how you "true biblical christians" behave, but in Islam, we must believe/do based on evidence, lest we wrongly accuse and punish innocent people.

And yet you objected when I was giving you examples how christians performed unspeakable crimes in the name of jesus.

Here's how George Bush killed a million innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan because Jesus told him so:

"President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa
Reply

Ramadhan
02-08-2012, 05:33 AM
Burninglight Can you please respond to my questions in the other threads?
Reply

Ramadhan
02-08-2012, 05:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
It is what is the truth of ones actions that is the fruit of what they follow and that can be use to make a judgment regardless what religion one tries to follow. The religion in this case is the tree. The fruit determines whether the tree is good or bad.
So based on this, you agree that christiniaty is a bad tree, agree?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
If there are Christian terrorist they are not following the teaching of Jesus that says to love your enemies. IOW, they are not dong it as a result of trying to obey Scriptures. And the same with Catholic priest that are pedophiles; you will find them in every religion but they don't do that because there religion teaches them that they do it because they are depraved and given to lust and sin. And those types of sins have no place in Christianity or Islam!
So we agree that we cannot judge a religion based on individual actions, am I right?
Then why did you say that the actions of media-reported terrorism repel you from even considering that Islam may be the truth?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
What false statments?
This is among false statements about Islam that you spew here
(by the way, what Islam-hating sites have you been reading lately?)

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Contradictions you speak of doesn't prove wholesale corruption of the Scriptures that Muhmmad never said were corrupted.
Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"

You keep quoting false statements from anti-Islam sites without verifying it first.

And do not tell me that you are seeking clarification, because you have been saying the above statements several times and no asking if it were true.

I wonder if "true biblical christian" is allowed to speak without proof and give false claim?

good tree or bad tree?
Reply

Burninglight
02-08-2012, 06:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

There are plenty more that Islam offer than christianity does.

For one thing, we don't worship creation.
I am about to go night night. But let me speak to this. You have brought one thing here that does not conflict with my beliefs. To worship God's creations is a sin! True Biblical Christians don't do that. You won't find any. Show in the Bible where Christians have done that or where it is taught in the Bible to worship God's creation. We worship God alone. He is good. He alone created us and the world and all that is in it. IO only worship my Creator NO ONE ELSE!
Good night over and out
Reply

Ramadhan
02-08-2012, 08:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I am about to go night night. But let me speak to this. You have brought one thing here that does not conflict with my beliefs. To worship God's creations is a sin! True Biblical Christians don't do that. You won't find any. Show in the Bible where Christians have done that or where it is taught in the Bible to worship God's creation.
If you follow Jesus' teaching then you will not worship creation, but if you follow paul's teaching you are worshipping creation.

And please have some courtesy and respond to my points in the above posts.
Reply

Burninglight
02-08-2012, 07:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
So based on this, you agree that christiniaty is a bad tree, agree?
No
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
So we agree that we cannot judge a religion based on individual actions, am I right?
Then why did you say that the actions of media-reported terrorism repel you from even considering that Islam may be the truth?
Yes and no it depends. I gave a thorough explaination on the conditions. About the repel thing, I said that because I was getting a baised view from the media, but I coupled that with what my experience and worldview had been, but if it were just for that, now it wouldn't repel me from Islam. I also didn't word that comment well. So my education on the forum has helped me see differently, and teach others not to judge Islam by the media or hate sites!
My biggest obstacle is not terror issues; that was the past. It is now theology differences!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply

Who Am I?
02-08-2012, 08:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Powerful testimony. I guess you can understand me except I am not extreme as you were, but I do find testimonies like yours interesting, because I am trying to understand what you see and others like you that I don't about Islam. I just don't see how it has more to offer than Christianity. I denfintely don't hate Muslims. I can say I never did; thank God for that.
:sl:

I don't know if I can really explain what it is about Islam that I like over Christianity, but I can try.

For me, the beauty of Islam is in its simplicity. There is a direct connection between me and God, something I never really felt when I was a Christian. I have always prayed directly to God, and never invoked the name of Jesus even when I prayed as a Christian. Some of my Christian friends never understood this, but all I could tell them was that it felt right to pray this way.

Islam makes me want to become a better man. I feel more at peace with myself now than I ever have before. For a long time I hated who I was, and nothing I did or said could change that. I felt lost, alone, confused... and I never thought I could find my way out. I realized that I couldn't keep living my life the way I was living it, and I knew that changes had to be made.

This search for the truth is what led me to Islam. A lot of what I read made sense, and overturned my previous convictions about Islam.
Reply

Burninglight
02-08-2012, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Who Am I?
:sl:

I don't know if I can really explain what it is about Islam that I like over Christianity, but I can try.

For me, the beauty of Islam is in its simplicity. There is a direct connection between me and God, something I never really felt when I was a Christian. I have always prayed directly to God, and never invoked the name of Jesus even when I prayed as a Christian. Some of my Christian friends never understood this, but all I could tell them was that it felt right to pray this way.

Islam makes me want to become a better man. I feel more at peace with myself now than I ever have before. For a long time I hated who I was, and nothing I did or said could change that. I felt lost, alone, confused... and I never thought I could find my way out. I realized that I couldn't keep living my life the way I was living it, and I knew that changes had to be made.

This search for the truth is what led me to Islam. A lot of what I read made sense, and overturned my previous convictions about Islam.
You, IMO, do more to promote Islam to me than my being drilled about what I once felt and believed about Islam. Your testimony is interesting. But I have a peace as a Christian too and I don't have praying problem accept not doing it enough. Sometimes, I struggle with my feelings, but I try not to be led by them. I think they make a good servant but a poor leader if you know what i mean. It is written that the just shall live by faith
Reply

Who Am I?
02-08-2012, 11:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
You, IMO, do more to promote Islam to me than my being drilled about what I once felt and believed about Islam. Your testimony is interesting. But I have a peace as a Christian too and I don't have praying problem accept not doing it enough. Sometimes, I struggle with my feelings, but I try not to be led by them. I think they make a good servant but a poor leader if you know what i mean. It is written that the just shall live by faith
Well it is not for me to say that this faith is right or that faith is wrong. That is only for Allah to decide. For me, Islam is right, and so that is the path that I follow.

I know what you mean about not being a leader though. I am learning that sometimes I have to be a leader, emotionally, spiritually, etc, and it's not something I am used to doing. I've become too accustomed to this selfish and lazy society in which we live. For too long I did things my own way, and I was content to let the world pass me by so long as it left me alone.

Eventually I realized that I can't stay on the fringe forever. At some point, I have to man up and get in the game. I have to learn how to become the right kind of man. These are not easy lessons to learn, and I struggle with this every single day.
Reply

Burninglight
02-09-2012, 12:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Who Am I?
Well it is not for me to say that this faith is right or that faith is wrong. That is only for Allah to decide. For me, Islam is right, and so that is the path that I follow.

I know what you mean about not being a leader though. I am learning that sometimes I have to be a leader, emotionally, spiritually, etc, and it's not something I am used to doing. I've become too accustomed to this selfish and lazy society in which we live. For too long I did things my own way, and I was content to let the world pass me by so long as it left me alone.

Eventually I realized that I can't stay on the fringe forever. At some point, I have to man up and get in the game. I have to learn how to become the right kind of man. These are not easy lessons to learn, and I struggle with this every single day.
I really believe that Muslims and Christians go through similar struggles in life. We are all fighting a tough battle so it pays to have love and understanding. My heart goes out to you. We do share all the same OT prophets and the most important NT ones. So we both love Jesus in our own way.

I can only pray that God delivers me out of any deception, because I am just as convinced of my path as you are of yours maybe more. Many Christians are converting and I purposely don't use the word revert, but this Christian doesn't understand why a Christian would forsake the teaching in the Bible. I can see them leaving certain demoninations or the Catholic Church but why leave Christ as the only hope of our salvation?

I like your name."Who am I?"
Reply

MustafaMc
02-09-2012, 12:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
this Christian doesn't understand why a Christian would forsake the teaching in the Bible. I can see them leaving certain demoninations or the Catholic Church but why leave Christ as the only hope of our salvation?
I get this question all of the time. This morning I actually sent a lengthy response to this question in a FaceBook message from a high school classmate I haven't seen in 33 years.
Reply

Burninglight
02-09-2012, 12:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I get this question all of the time. This morning I actually sent a lengthy response to this question in a FaceBook message from a high school classmate I haven't seen in 33 years.
I am all ears
Reply

MustafaMc
02-09-2012, 03:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I am all ears
It is impossible for one who had converted from Christianity to prove that he was ever a 'real' Christian. I know this woman to be a devout Christian who I knew in high school and I chose to share my religious journey with her. I choose not to do so here.
Reply

Burninglight
02-09-2012, 06:18 AM
okay, that's fine
Reply

Scimitar
02-09-2012, 06:37 AM
No it's not... I wanna know... (ok call me nosey)

Scimi
Reply

Burninglight
02-09-2012, 06:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
No it's not... I wanna know... (ok call me nosey)

Scimi
Me too. I am nosey; if we start a petition he might comply :D
Reply

Scimitar
02-09-2012, 07:31 AM
We can always bring in ED209 ...

"Please put down your weapon, you now have 20 seconds to comply... you are in direct violation of penal code 113 section 9" looool



hehe... sorry couldn't resist

Scimi
Reply

Who Am I?
02-09-2012, 04:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
We can always bring in ED209 ...

"Please put down your weapon, you now have 20 seconds to comply... you are in direct violation of penal code 113 section 9" looool



hehe... sorry couldn't resist

Scimi
RoboCop is awesome.

"Dead or alive, you're coming with me!"

Oh, and you said "penal". ;D
Reply

Burninglight
02-09-2012, 09:41 PM
That was cool! I hope that guy lives
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-10-2012, 02:44 AM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I get this question all of the time. This morning I actually sent a lengthy response to this question in a FaceBook message from a high school classmate I haven't seen in 33 years.

Bro , I read in other thread that you are writing a book ? I hope , we will get the book soon .


To the OP , while reading convert stories I found that ex Christians had a problem with Trinity . Islam explains the concept of God logically - no mystery here .
Reply

Who Am I?
02-10-2012, 03:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
:sl:
Bro , I read in other thread that you are writing a book ? I hope , we will get the book soon .


To the OP , while reading convert stories I found that ex Christians had a problem with Trinity . Islam explains the concept of God logically - no mystery here .
:sl:

Indeed, this is something that always bothered me about Christianity, and in my opinion is why modern Christianity is not true monotheism.
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Burninglight
02-10-2012, 03:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
To the OP , while reading convert stories I found that ex Christians had a problem with Trinity . Islam explains the concept of God logically - no mystery here .
So ex Christians became Muslims, because they had a problem understanding the concept of God, but Muslims can figure God's essence out logically; they understand how Allah (God) is made up (the concept of His being) through human logic and reason, and Allah is no mystery to you? Uhmm??//////???
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Burninglight
02-10-2012, 03:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Who Am I?
:sl:

Indeed, this is something that always bothered me about Christianity, and in my opinion is why modern Christianity is not true monotheism.
So how was early Christianity or the early church different than modern Christianity today in the way they viewed God's nature?
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Who Am I?
02-10-2012, 04:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
So how was early Christianity or the early church different than modern Christianity today in the way they viewed God's nature?
Two words: Nicean Council.

Early "Christians" (the word didn't really exist until after the ascension of Christ) were almost identical to Muslims. The concept of the Trinity didn't come around until later.

There is actually a sect of Christianity called the Unitarians who don't believe in the Trinity either. If I was to choose Christianity again, that's probably who I would go with.

But that would mean I would accept Jesus as divine, and I'm not convinced that he was.

Oh, and Allah is still mysterious, but then there are things that man was not meant to know.

Read Lovecraft and you'll see what I mean...
Reply

Burninglight
02-10-2012, 04:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Who Am I?
Two words: Nicean Council.

Early "Christians" (the word didn't really exist until after the ascension of Christ) were almost identical to Muslims. The concept of the Trinity didn't come around until later.

There is actually a sect of Christianity called the Unitarians who don't believe in the Trinity either. If I was to choose Christianity again, that's probably who I would go with.

But that would mean I would accept Jesus as divine, and I'm not convinced that he was.

Oh, and Allah is still mysterious, but then there are things that man was not meant to know.

Read Lovecraft and you'll see what I mean...
But the apostles mention the Holy Spirit as being God in Acts, and the apostles mention that Jesus is the son of God and God said He is His son, and We know that the Father was mentioned way before the Nicene Council.

I am tired of hearing about Constantine. My Nephew is in a cult called the World Mission Society Church of God and the blame Constantine for Biblical corruption of church understanding so they pray to a different Christ and believe that God is on earth as a woman. The Constantine thing doesn't work for me
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
02-10-2012, 05:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
But the apostles mention the Holy Spirit as being God in Acts, and the apostles mention that Jesus is the son of God and God said He is His son, and We know that the Father was mentioned way before the Nicene Council.

I am tired of hearing about Constantine. My Nephew is in a cult called the World Mission Society Church of God and the blame Constantine for Biblical corruption of church understanding so they pray to a different Christ and believe that God is on earth as a woman. The Constantine thing doesn't work for me
So what works for you then? Believing random men who wrote the Gospels - of whom Biblical scholars ADMIT are not known who they really are and when they written - over the words and teachings of God and Christ? Are you serious?

You choose not to believe in how Constantine corrupted Christianity based purely upon your desires and your desires do not reflect the truth. The truth is you are practising Constanines religion.

"It was Constantine who changed the day
of worship from Saturday to Sunday,

despite the fact that Jesus, and all of
the apostles strictly observed the Sabbath
on Saturday. His decision was influenced
by the fact that Sun-Day was the Roman day
of worship of the Sun-God, Apollo."
-The Thirteenth Disciple
Constantine and The Trinity
by Nozrem ha Brit


"Constantine decided that God was
three-in-one based on the theologians
Tertullian, Cyprian, and Augustine.

Constantine convened the council of
Nicaea in 325, in which the Creed
outlined his version of the relationship
between Jesus and the Father. It is
unfortunate that the relationship of
Constantine and his own son could not
be so close, as while he was in the West
he had his eldest son and friend, Crispus,
and his wife, Fausta, executed for reasons
that remained a mystery. All other forms of
Christianity that did not comply to
this Creed, were labeled as heretics
and were to be eliminated. To this day,
Constantine’s Nicean Creed is used as
the basis for determining who is a
Christian, which is why Jehovah’s Witnesses,
are still labelled as heretics today."


"The effects of pagan influences
on Christian traditions can most clearly
be seen in its’ celebrations, for every
single one has a pagan celebration
as its origin.
One festivity that was
personally initiated by Constantine
was All Saint’s Day, quite appropriate
as the mythology of pagan traditions
were transferred to the stories of the Saints."

(We all know Easter and Christmas have their origins in Paganism - Are you going to deny that?)


"Between Constantine and cohorts,
the entire foundation of modern
Christianity was developed.

Yet perhaps we should ponder
if it would have been better for
Yeshua’s (Jesus')teachings to have
disappeared than to have them so
utterly corrupted and perpetuated
as his own."

-The Thirteenth Disciple
Constantine and The Trinity
by Nozrem ha Brit

Source: http://babylon-the-great.xanga.com/674811257/item/

Deny it all you want, it only takes a little research to find out the truth but you do not want to know the truth but you are blinded.
Reply

Burninglight
02-10-2012, 06:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
So what works for you then? Believing random men who wrote the Gospels - of whom Biblical scholars ADMIT are not known who they really are and when they written - over the words and teachings of God and Christ? Are you serious?

You choose not to believe in how Constantine corrupted Christianity based purely upon your desires and your desires do not reflect the truth. The truth is you are practising Constanines religion.

"It was Constantine who changed the day
of worship from Saturday to Sunday,
despite the fact that Jesus, and all of
the apostles strictly observed the Sabbath
on Saturday. His decision was influenced
by the fact that Sun-Day was the Roman day
of worship of the Sun-God, Apollo."-The Thirteenth Disciple
Constantine and The Trinity
by Nozrem ha Brit
Paginism has kept into "every religion" not just Christianity. Constantine's influence has been mostly on the Catholic Church. The Sabbath and Sunday are insignificant. Paul said that before Constantine. Read Ro. 14 It states that you can pick whatever day you feel confortable with. Jesus said man wasn't made for the Sabbath but SABBATH FOR THE MAN. Jesus is our rest. He is our rest from striving in our own strength to be right with God. That battle is the Lord's.

So Constantine coined the word trinity that is not in the Bible. We all know this. Tell me something I don't know. What significant thing is different about Christianity today that didn't happen for the early Church. Don't include Catholicism; they have been influence by paganism just as much as any major world religion, and I am not talking about them believing Jesus is the Son of God. Constantine didn't come up with that. It was already in the Bible and so was Christ's death and Resurrection; that was not Constantine's creation. So what is you excuse for not believing that Jesus died and rose for our sin. That was in the Bible for many decades before Muhammad and Constantine?
Reply

MustafaMc
02-10-2012, 07:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
:sl:




Bro , I read in other thread that you are writing a book ? I hope , we will get the book soon .


To the OP , while reading convert stories I found that ex Christians had a problem with Trinity . Islam explains the concept of God logically - no mystery here .
Wa alaikum assalam, my respected sister in Islam, I have not begun writing a book, but I believe Brother YusufNoor has. I would really like to write a book on comparing Islam with Christianity, but I don't have the time.

For those who are interested such as yourself and Brother Scimi, here is my conversion story http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...tml#post694454 For myself as a Christian, I never had doubts about Jesus being God in human flesh (astaghfir'Allah) even though I could not logically explain it. I had accepted Jesus as my personal savior from my sins all of the way up until December 1981 when I read the Quran. This was the miracle of my life. There are many people who have read the Quran and it has meant absolutely nothing to them; whereas, for me I was able to see for the first time in my life that it is illogical to say that Jesus is the Son of God and that the Father in Heaven per the Lord's Prayer and Jesus were one and the same Divine Being. In hindsight after again reading the Bible, the most telling instance of this contradiction is the baptism of Jesus where the 3 elements of the Trinity supposedly were expressed simultaneously. Luke 3:21-22 Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased. I can now see that 1) Jesus coming up from the water, 2) the Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus, and 3) the Father saying, "This is My beloved Son." could not be an illustration of Divine Unity. Others who are yet Christians still accept this as the Truth, but for myself I had an irreversible 'Paradigm Shift' where my innermost belief system changed over a mere few days of reading the Quran.

Even though I can't fully grasp Allah's (swt) nature and His eternal existence, I believe that He is One God and there is none other who has any power or might except what Allah (swt) has allowed for him. I believe that Allah (swt) exists outside of the constraints that we as humans live within, which is that of space and time. I believe that Allah (swt) is the ultimate Reality and that our universe is but an illusion. If we can imagine for a single moment our infinitesimally small size when compared to even the outer limits of this universe and how our lifetime of 70 years is like a mere fraction of a second compared to the time elapsed since the 'Big Bang', we will start to realize the insignificance of our own lives. However, despite our own personal insignificance there is meaning to it all when we realize that our purpose in life is to worship our Creator and to be kind to our neighbor.

Despite my being only one of 7 billion people, I believe that Allah (swt) guided me to Islam while yet so many remain astray of the Straight Way. This gets to my choice of 'Mustafa' for my legal name since 2004. I felt chosen, but not in the arrogant sense of superiority to the Gentile that the Jew feels. I am humbled to think that Allah (swt) chose to show me the Truth of Islam despite my own personal limitations. I ask myself, "Why me Lord, what have I ever done to deserve You loving me, and guiding me to Islam?" I proved unworthy of that guidance as I ceased to practice Islam from 1986 to 2001. At the end of that time I again felt led back to Islam as I was taking my son and my wife to the local Church of Christ so my son would have some sense of God albeit a twisted one at that. After a while I felt like a hypocrite to be going to church and listening to sermons that I no longer believed to be true. In June of 2001, I decided to practice Islam and I have been consistent since then, masha'Allah. My hope and prayer is that Allah (swt) will cause me to die not but as a Muslim and a Mumin and that He will forgive me of my sins and shortcomings.
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-10-2012, 12:56 PM
Salaam / Peace


format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
So ex Christians became Muslims, because they had a problem understanding the concept of God, but Muslims can figure God's essence out logically; they understand how Allah (God) is made up (the concept of His being) through human logic and reason, and Allah is no mystery to you? Uhmm??//////???
God is one , God has power over everything , no one can harm God , God can not die , God has no partner , we must pray to God only and must not associate partner with Him - these all are so simple to understand :statisfie . Where is the mystery here ? :hmm:
Reply

Abz2000
02-11-2012, 05:45 AM
Arius (Ἄρειος, AD 250 or 256 – 336) was a Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt of Libyan origins. His teachings about the nature of the Godhead, which emphasized the Father's divinity over the Son,[1] and his opposition to the Athanasian or Trinitarian Christology, made him a controversial figure in the First Council of Nicea, convened by Roman Emperor Constantine in AD 325.
After Emperor Constantine legalized and formalized the Christianity of the time in the Roman Empire, the newly recognized Catholic Church sought to unify and clarify its theology. Trinitarian Christians, including Athanasius, used Arius and Arianism as epithets to describe those who disagreed with their doctrine of co-equal Trinitarianism, a Christology representing God the Father and Son (Jesus of Nazareth) as "of one essence" (consubstantial) and coeternal.[2]

Although virtually all positive writings on Arius' theology have been suppressed or destroyed,[3] negative writings describe Arius' theology as one in which there was a time before the Son of God, where only God the Father existed. Despite concerted opposition, 'Arian', or nontrinitarian Christian churches persisted throughout Europe and North Africa, in various Gothic and Germanic kingdoms, until suppressed by military conquest or voluntary royal conversion between the fifth and seventh centuries.
Although "Arianism" suggests that Arius was the originator of the teaching that bears his name, the debate over the Son’s precise relationship to the Father did not begin with him. This subject had been discussed for decades before his advent; Arius merely intensified the controversy and carried it to a Church-wide audience, where other "Arians" such as Eusebius of Nicomedia would prove much more influential in the long run. Eusebius of Nicomedia should not be confused with Eusebius of Caesarea (Bishop of Caesarea of Palestine), a renowned church father, a church historian and eulogistic biographer of Roman Emperor Constantine. Eusebius of Caesarea is possibly one of the drafters of the Nicean creed. In fact, some later "Arians" disavowed that moniker, claiming not to have been familiar with the man or his specific teachings.[4] However, because the conflict between Arius and his foes brought the issue to the theological forefront, the doctrine he proclaimed—though not originated by him—is generally labeled as "his".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius
Reply

YusufNoor
02-11-2012, 03:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
So how was early Christianity or the early church different than modern Christianity today in the way they viewed God's nature?
this is a VERY complicated question, we have insight and record but only in midstream. i read about this when i can, but here is a quick overview:

in Deuteronomy 6:3 Hear, Israel, and be careful to obey so that it may go well with you and that you may increase greatly in a land flowing with milk and honey, just as the LORD, the God of your ancestors, promised you.

4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.[a] 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children

in Mark 12:28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.”

32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

here we see agreement with the TRUE Injeel of Jesus, pbuh, with the Torah of Moses, pbuh. THIS is Islam, and it is the SAME Message of the Qur'an given to Muhammad, pbuh.

by the time we have written Gospels, 65-95AD, we see change with the biggest change in John:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

now, factually, no one knows who wrote this or where or exactly when. but somehow this anonymous document, along with Peter's [alleged] sermon in Acts [believed to have been written around the same time as John [and also of unknown origin] are the foundations of Christian theology. Peter's sermon:

Acts 2 14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[c]

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:

“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[e]

29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’[f]

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

this is about 65 years AFTER the Message of Jesus, pbuh, and again no one knows who wrote this. by the end of the second century CE, these words are accepted by nearly all of the Christians as truthful and correct. there are records of it being accepted earlier by many, but i'm showing here where i disagree with Bart Ehrman. up to this point, speculation on EXACTLY what these words mean isn't a large part of the historical record. what IS recorded is that the key was accepting these words as true. there are historical records of church leader [and others] DYING for these words. as Christianity spread, it did so in the "Greek" world, as Grrek was the lingua franca of the Roman Empire. the Greek traditions are based upon Philosophy, which Aristotle and his followers expounded. debate was a "Greek thing, so to speak. naturally, once the ideas of Christianity spread, there began "debate" on just what these words meant.the word trinity doesn't come into play until the late 2nd century CE. as early as Plato, on of Aristotle's chief successors, we have the concept of a trinity in the "prime mover." thus, the "educated" world [which is pondering/accepting Christianity] is now trying "comprehend" rather than just accept these words.

by Niceae, the debate centers around the "beginning." did Jesus begin? how can you be monotheistic and have 2 gods? the Arian position was that God created Jesus 1st, then Jesus created everything. Athanasius argued that Jesus always "was". Athanasius won the debate. HOWEVER, most assume that this then became the position of the Empire under Constantine, it didn't. in fact, on his deathbed, Constantine was baptized by an Arian Bishop. his successors were Arian. while most of the views of Athanasius became the majority view, it took a long time to come about. you see, Athanasius spent a great deal of his life in exile.

next, debates sprang about whether or not Jesus was subordinate to God, became God at some point in his life and whether or not Mary was literally the "mother of God".

by 451CE, we see the final arguments centering on the "nature" of Jesus. was he fully God when he was human? partially? Chalcedon decided this question. while the "question" was decided, many still disagreed.

in Sixth Ecumenical Council: Constantinople III (680-681), we see the Chalcedon position finally being a concrete part of the faith. to believe otherwise, is to be heretic.

the position of the Holy Spirit began to take center stage in the late 4th century CE. you can review these progressions here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04423f.htm

it's a fascinating subject and yet few pursue it.

now, granted this is a very superficial overview, but it is what it is.

:wa:
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
02-11-2012, 11:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

So Constantine coined the word trinity that is not in the Bible. We all know this. Tell me something I don't know.
How could you say that Constantine had no significance for "Biblical Christians" when he coined the very term which is fundamentals of your faith by which your faith would no longer exist if it was not true - The trinity. He influenced your religion much more than you will ever want to accept. But the facts are as clear as day light but it is just that you do no WISH to believe them.
Reply

Burninglight
02-12-2012, 12:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
God is one , God has power over everything , no one can harm God , God can not die , God has no partner , we must pray to God only and must not associate partner with Him - these all are so simple to understand . Where is the mystery here ?
I don't have a problem with this. I agree!
Reply

Burninglight
02-12-2012, 12:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
How could you say that Constantine had no significance for "Biblical Christians" when he coined the very term which is fundamentals of your faith by which your faith would no longer exist if it was not true - The trinity. He influenced your religion much more than you will ever want to accept. But the facts are as clear as day light but it is just that you do no WISH to believe them.
Because, Biblical Christians lived before constantine
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
02-12-2012, 12:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Because, Biblical Christians lived before constantine
Yes and the trinity was created hundreds of years AFTER Christ.

How could a fundamental concept of your faith suddenly appear "out of the blue" hundreds of years later?
Reply

Burninglight
02-12-2012, 01:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
Yes and the trinity was created hundreds of years AFTER Christ.

How could a fundamental concept of your faith suddenly appear "out of the blue" hundreds of years later?
Show me where I deny that the term "trinity" was created hundreds of years after Christ and I'll beome a Muslim.
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
02-12-2012, 01:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Show we where I deny that the term "trinity" was created hundreds of years after Christ and I'll beome a Muslim.
Show me where i stated you denied it?

I am merely asking you how a fundamental concept of your faith which was NOT be included anywhere in the Bible nor was it ever even mentioned by God or Jesus be created hundreds of years after Christ?
Reply

Burninglight
02-12-2012, 02:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
Originally Posted by Burninglight
Show me where I deny that the term "trinity" was created hundreds of years after Christ and I'll beome a Muslim.
Show me where i stated you denied it?

I am merely asking you how a fundamental concept of your faith which was NOT be included anywhere in the Bible nor was it ever even mentioned by God or Jesus be created hundreds of years after Christ?
You didn't. So why do you keep throwing in my face that which I haven't said. IOW, I never said the word "trinity" was in the Bible. I believe in the Bible before Constantine's time. Does that help clarify things for anyone?
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Burninglight
02-12-2012, 02:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
Although virtually all positive writings on Arius' theology have been suppressed or destroyed,[3] negative writings describe Arius' theology as one in which there was a time before the Son of God, where only God the Father existed. Despite concerted opposition, 'Arian', or nontrinitarian Christian churches persisted throughout Europe and North Africa, in various Gothic and Germanic kingdoms, until suppressed by military conquest or voluntary royal conversion between the fifth and seventh centuries.
Them be the Jehovah Witnesses; them ain't Christians to me
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
02-12-2012, 02:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
You didn't. So why do you keep throwing in my face that which I haven't said. IOW, I never said the word "trinity" was in the Bible. I believe in the Bible before Constantine's time. Does that help clarify things for anyone?
So you don't believe in the trinity?
Reply

Burninglight
02-12-2012, 02:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
So you don't believe in the trinity?
Do you really care?
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Hamza Asadullah
02-12-2012, 02:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Do you really care?
Yes that is why i asked because the majority of Christians do believe in the trinity.

You seem a bit on edge. Is everything ok?
Reply

Burninglight
02-12-2012, 02:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
Yes that is why i asked because the majority of Christians do believe in the trinity.

You seem a bit on edge. Is everything ok?
Thank you for asking; yes, friend everything is okay. I don't believe in using a term that is not mentioned in the Bible. I believe God is one and I believe all the Bible says about God.
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Hamza Asadullah
02-12-2012, 03:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Thank you for asking; yes, friend everything is okay. I don't believe in using a term that is not mentioned in the Bible. I believe God is one and I believe all the Bible says about God.
Then why do you believe in the concept of God having 3 manifestations when it is nowhere in the words of God nor Jesus?
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Burninglight
02-12-2012, 03:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
Then why do you believe in the concept of God having 3 manifestations when it is nowhere in the words of God nor Jesus?
I don't understand the trinity, and I don't understand enough about God's essence to say He has had three manifestations or how to explain God's nature. God said in the Bible that Jesus (ISA) is His beloved son in whom He is well pleased and to listen to Him. I don't try to explain how that is possible and I don't understand how it is possible. I simply believe God as a child believes His or her parents. You should be able to respect this view of mine as being sincere as I do the Muslims view of Allah!
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YusufNoor
02-12-2012, 03:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Show me where I deny that the term "trinity" was created hundreds of years after Christ and I'll beome a Muslim.
In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen ("In Ps. xvii", 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:
Catholic source:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

repeat after me:

la ilaha ilalla muhammadur rasulullah

there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah



:wa:
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
02-12-2012, 04:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I don't understand the trinity, and I don't understand enough about God's essence to say He has had three manifestations or how to explain God's nature. God said in the Bible that Jesus (ISA) is His beloved son in whom He is well pleased and to listen to Him. I don't try to explain how that is possible and I don't understand how it is possible. I simply believe God as a child believes His or her parents. You should be able to respect this view of mine as being sincere as I do the Muslims view of Allah!
You are not expected to understand something which is not true. Why should you force yourself to believe in such a concept which is not supported by the scriptures nor was it ever mentioned byANY prophet, God nor Jesus.

I have already showed you how many "sons" daughters and children God had and how you cannot take such a term literally. Jesus (as) worked tirelessly as did all the Prophets to established the oneness of God but the devil is always trying his best to cause man to do that which angers God the most - Ascribe partners unto him. Clearly Paul and many others were heavily influenced by Greek mythology and that is why such concepts as the trinity and God having more than one manifestation, blood atonement etc found its way into Christianity.

Watch the following amazing video by a Hebrew scholar who clearly shows that the Bible does NOT refer to Jesus as being divine like God but that of a Prophet. Even the Dideche confirms this. So if scholars confirm that Jesus was NEVER referred to as divine or as the son of God then who are you to believe otherwise?

The Bibles Buried Secrets Did God Have a Wife

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