Is There Evidence of Allah's Existence?

[MustafaMc]

I believe that there is no verifiable scientific proof that Allah (swt) exists. By this I mean that no one has ever seen, smelled or touched Him. Moses conversed with Him through the burning bush, but we don't have a tape recording of the conversation. No one has measured or defined His nature other than what He has revealed in the Quran. Belief in Allah (swt) is the most fundamental belief that we Muslims and other theists have. Why do you believe in His existence?

My belief in Allah (swt) centers around the requirement I see for a Creator. This perceived need of a Creator is derived from my scientific knowledge (PhD in genetics and molecular biology, mash'Allah) and through the use of my mind to know that the universe and all life (as my friend Eric noted) did not arise by chance, but rather was created by a Higher Power that I know as Allah (swt). It is my choice to believe in Allah (swt) as it is the choice of others to disbelieve.

I will use an analogy that I have stated elsewhere. If I were to walk upon a beach and came upon three bricks (_ _ _) that were stacked on top of each other perfectly aligned like:

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I would conclude that someone came before me and stacked them up in that matter. The fact that there were no footprints left in the sand would not be proof that I was wrong and that the bricks instead became stacked by the random crashing of the waves on the shoreline. Rather I would conclude that these waves erased the footprints of the person who stacked the bricks while leaving the bricks standing. How much more intricate is the design of life systems that are evidence of a Creator?

Why do you believe in Allah (swt)?

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

You pretty much already covered it, dude. I was going to say that the universe has too much order for it to just be random cosmic chance. That in itself is proof enough. It is what eventually convinced me that there really is a God when I was an atheist/agnostic.

I do have to admit that the whole dinosaurs thing puzzles me, though. But that's another topic.

[MustafaMc]

A fundamental aspect and element of any religion by definition is faith. If we had physically verifiable evidence or proof for the existence of Allah (swt), where would faith come in? If there existed such evidence observable to all, could anyone deny the existence of Allah (swt)?

According to Wikipedia, Faith is confidence or trust in a person or entity. Depending on the religion, faith is belief in a single god or multiple gods or in the doctrines or teachings of the religion. Informal usage of faith can be quite broad, including trust or belief without proof, and "faith" is often used as a substitute for "hope", "trust" or "belief". Some critics of faith have argued that faith is opposed to reason. In contrast, some advocates of faith argue that the proper domain of faith concerns questions which cannot be settled by evidence.

I grew up as a Christian and as a child I believed that Santa Claus brought presents to me during the night before Christmas. As I grew older my curiosity and questioning about Santa Claus also grew. I would stay up and try to get a glimpse of Santa Claus, but I never did. Eventually, I came to see that he was only a myth and that it was my parents who put the presents under the tree while I was asleep. I ceased to believe that Santa Claus existed.

Also, as a child of Christians I grew up being taught that God came to earth in the form of a human being, Jesus, to live a perfect life and to offer himself as a sacrificial lamb on the cross as the only possible means for man, myself included, to be redeemed from his sins and saved from being punished in the Hellfire. My concept of God was centered around and focused on the 'Son' aspect of the Trinity and I felt an immense gratitude that God would come to earth and die a horrible death so that I might attain Eternal Life (astaghfir'Allah). I continued with this Christian belief until I read the Quran and came upon a different understanding of God as the one and only Divine Being without father, mother, son or daughter. I experienced a 'Paradigm Shift' where my concept of God changed irrevocably. I now saw that God was the 'Father' who Jesus referred to in the Lord's Prayer and who he prayed to in the Garden of Gethsemane. My belief about Jesus changed as I now saw that Jesus was an honored prophet and servant of God and that he was not God incarnate. This radical change in belief was not something that I willed to occur, rather I feel I was guided to this Truth by Allah (swt).

Atheists are actually quite insightful in seizing upon the Theory of Evolution as the explanation for how the existing and extinct species of life came into being. If it can be proven that all of the species of life, including mankind, arose through natural processes from a single, unicellular 'Common Ancestor', then there is little need for a Creator to have created them from nothing merely by saying "Be!" If a Creator can be proven not to be required for the emergence of the species, then the most basic, fundamental element of faith that is the cornerstone of religion would be shown to be nothing more than a myth like Santa Claus. As a result religion would collapse like a 'house of cards'.

My contention is that the atheists and the evolutionists will never be successful and that they are merely grasping at imaginary straws in a futile attempt to disprove the existence of Allah (swt). We as theists should be thankful to Allah (swt) for this guidance that results in us having faith while others yet wander astray. Our faith is an intangible element of our being that to a large extent defines our world view.

[~Zaria~]

Assalamu-alaikum,

I believe in Allah because:

- It is inconceivable that this universe, and every living organism in existence has come from - nothing, by no-one, and is headed no-where! ^o)

- I may not be able to physically see my Creator, BUT, as mentioned above, His handiwork is everywhere to see.
It is not possible to turn your head in either direction but, to behold his magnificence.....if only we took the time to reflect on these.

Do we not realise that a simple leaf, or a strand of hair, or even a single-celled organism, such as an amoeba - can not be re-created with all the scientic advances we have made so far?
Bring all the scientists of the world together - and ask them to recreate a leaf!
Alhamdulillah (All Praise is due to Allah!)

- I refuse to believe that I have no purpose, that whatever happens in my life has no meaning, that when all is said and done......I am returning to dust, and nothing more.

- When I see good being done in this world, that often goes un-noticed, and un-rewarded - then, surely this can not be in vain?

- And when I see evil and hatred in this world, that escapes our mortal justice - I am comforted by the knowledge that the most just recompense is yet to follow.
SubhanAllah!

- When I see birth......And when I see death......my belief in Allah is strengthened over and over again.



Why do I believe in Allah (subhana wata'ala)?

Because I can see no other way.
Without Him, my Rabb - there would be no me.

I would be a fool.....no worse.....for me to make use of every bounty that my most Merciful Creator has blessed me with, each and every day, and then......refuse to acknowledge Him.

Salaam

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[Insaanah]

:sl:

You have articulated what I often think, in a far better manner than I could.

The analogy that I tend to use is that of finding a perfect dining table and chair set in the middle of a forest. And what the chances are of the trees sawing the correct portions of themselves off and then the right pieces being joined together in the right places etc.

What I would respectfully add, is that even the uneducated know that the complex systems of this world, such as our bodies, could not have come into being by themsleves, if simple things such as tables and chairs and houses can't. What I mean to say, is that both educated and uneducated know this self-evident truth. It is there for all who wish to recognise it.

[CosmicPathos]

I also believe that I cannot provide a tangible proof of Allah when an atheist blatantly asks me "provide me evidence of your God." At times I feel embarassed that I cannot shut him up once and for all for I cannot provide him the direct physical evidence that he seeks. If he asked me to prove to him that protein A binds to protein B, I could use immunohistochemistry experiments and prove it to him but I cant do it with God, unfortunately (or foruntately?).

That being said, ignoring all religious texts and all rituals, imagine I was born in a world where no one knew about God. So the default position was to be an atheist. I, as a person, would still yearn for ulterior meaning, suffer from exitential crises etc. That however is not a proof of God, but rather a proof for need of someone who can be God.

My belief in exitence of God stems from the First Cause argument. All that which exists has to start from somewhere, from someone. An atheist believes that there is no First Cause, even though He cannot provide evidence of that. I believe that there is a First Cause, who also is personal because It decided that something be created rather than not created, when the universe equally could not have been created, and the Cause would still remain.

[Haya emaan]

why do i believe in Allah?
many things have been already mentioned here..

when i was born and in my childhood days my parents gave me the belief that there is Allah. that's the age when you don't need any evidence, but ALHAMDULILLAH as i grew up i never had to ask my self Why i do believe in Allah. Not because i was told to do so but every moment of my life gave me evidence that Yes there is Allah.

when i was a science student science stuff provided me with lots of proofs, from the smallest particle atom to the universe, the origin of man and every living and nonliving organism, the patterns of life, the laws of science and the list goes on..

Now being a student of arts i try to study nature from aesthetic view.. and with every glance of beauty the word i feel in my heart is "ALLAH". I try to copy aspects of nature with all its major and minor details and this is where every petal of flower with accurate, every leave of tree with its fine lines, every cloud in the sky forming amazing shapes, height of the sky, depth of the sea, so much perfect color merging, light and dark shades in the sky.. verity of colors in the lands, shades of blue in the seas , brilliant color scheming and every other detail strengthens my believe that no doubt this all needs a creator.

i need some one to whom i can praise for making this all.. Each time when i finish my piece of painting and show it to some one, they ask "who made it?".. oh! if such a small piece of beauty needs a creator than how come the vast lands and seas expression of endless beauties can be created on its own...

[MustafaMc]

:sl:

You have articulated what I often think, in a far better manner than I could.

Wa alaikum assalam, masha'Allah, sister. Actually, you had a very good explanation.

The analogy that I tend to use is that of finding a perfect dining table and chair set in the middle of a forest. And what the chances are of the trees sawing the correct portions of themselves off and then the right pieces being joined together in the right places etc.

This is a simple but elegant analogy. I find it amazing that different people can see evidence of their Creator through there own personal perspective, whether it be bricks on a beach, the First Cause, a small piece of beautiful art, or a dining table in the forest. Subhan'Allah yet there are those who have eyes and are unable to see.

What I would respectfully add, is that even the uneducated know that the complex systems of this world, such as our bodies, could not have come into being by themsleves, if simple things such as tables and chairs and houses can't. What I mean to say, is that both educated and uneducated know this self-evident truth. It is there for all who wish to recognise it.

Actually, it seems to me that often times it is the most uneducated who have the strongest faith. Sometimes the educated can become deluded in their arrogance and think that a Creator is not required, nor are they able to see the beauty and the wonder of what theists see in the creation as evidence of a Creator.

[Hulk]

The issue with a lot of atheists is that they are way too arrogant so a lot of times it is pointless to get into a debate with them. However, if they do make certain silly claims then you should put him in his place. Of course in order to do that you need to be intelligent yourself so that's where the pursuit of knowledge comes in. And we have to be careful with knowledge as it should make us humble, not arrogant.

Many times atheists would take some "intellectual" quote against religion and just run with it. Many times such "intellectual" quotes can be refuted if thought through thoroughly, but the ignorant wouldn't bother, obviously. People can be such sheeps sometimes, which is interesting because a lot of our prophets were shepherds at one time.

[MustafaMc]

The issue with a lot of atheists is that they are way too arrogant so a lot of times it is pointless to get into a debate with them.

You are exactly correct that it seems pointless to debate with atheists about evolution and the existence of Allah in the same manner it seems pointless to debate Christians about the deity of Jesus. We are very unlikely to convince of their errors, but I feel a duty to do what I can to give them an opportunity to see things differently. You are also exactly correct that we need to guard against arrogance ourselves. It is often a fine line between confidence in one's convictions and coming across as arrogant.

[marwen]

:sl:

Jazakom Allah khyran all of you brothers and sisters. I think the above posts are perfectly describing what is belief and how it's not a matter of direct proof or evidence.
In the same idea, I want to add some input about a subtle concept, which is :
the importance of the heart in the process of eemaan.
Something that non-believers don't know, and many muslims tend to forget when trying to call non-believers to the truth.
May Allah give us all the purity of the heart and husn al khateema. Aameen !


:bism:
I'll start from these 2 verses, which I think, summarize all the story of Imaan (faith) :

Surat Alshuaraa': verses 88-89:
"The day when wealth and sons avail not (any man) (88)Save him who bringeth unto Allah a whole heart."
يَوۡمَ لَا يَنفَعُ مَالٌ۬ وَلَا بَنُونَ  ٨٨ إِلَّا مَنۡ أَتَى ٱللَّهَ بِقَلۡبٍ۬ سَلِيمٍ۬ ٨٩

One of the conditions of the test on this earth is that Allah will not give us a strong explicit evidence of His existence. If we can see Allah with our eyes, or hear Him with our ears, then all the men on earth will believe automatically in His existence, like they believe in the existence of the sun, or in the existence of thunder. And thus, the hell and the jannah, the punishment and the reward will be irrelevant. People will never do sins, and the test in this dunya will be useless.


So for brothers and sisters who want to do dawah and try to find answers for the unbelievers, and who want to find explicit proofs or evidences about the existence of Allah, they should know that there is no segmental and final response that will work for all, and that will make all the people believers.
There is always people who will find their way easily, with the help of Allah. And also those who will stray from the right path.


Allah only gave us signs of his existence. And He gave us a mind and a heart. And we can easily get to Allah through our mind, by following the signs and the basic 'fitra' (innate common sense). That combination (mind or intelligence or fitra + the signs) theoretically can simply lead all the humans to believe in Allah. But why unbelievers still exist ? => Because there is another little thing that make the process of belief a little bit more complex and difficult : the heart. Your heart may cast you away from the way of Allah !


The process of belief, as simple as it is, is also a little bit delicate; Because it depends on two factors : the mind and the heart.


The mind is so simple and correct (though limited), you are not able to force it to be incorrect, or to change the way your mind works : "1+1=2"; "cause preceeds effect"; "I think, therefore I am"; etc. You can lie on others, but you cannot lie on yourself, because your mind will not let it pass, as simple as that.


But there is the heart. The other part of the game. The heart is not as rigourous as the mind, in fact it has no reason.
And the problem is that, the heart can influence on your mind, and can make you a believer or non-believer. How ?

Let's go back to the 2 verses in the beginning :
"The day when wealth and sons avail not (any man) (88)Save him who bringeth unto Allah a whole heart. (89)"
يَوۡمَ لَا يَنفَعُ مَالٌ۬ وَلَا بَنُونَ  ٨٨ إِلَّا مَنۡ أَتَى ٱللَّهَ بِقَلۡبٍ۬ سَلِيمٍ۬ ٨٩

==> The day of Judgement. Only the believers will come through. But Allah said that only will win those who come with a whole heart : that means a whole sane heart, a whole clean heart, a heart that is entirely intact and not affected with diseases.
From Arabic : Qalbun Saleem : a heart which is sane, or which is entirely devoted to Allah. This describes also a heart which is totally submitted (musallam) to Allah, the true meaning of Islam !

Diseases of the heart is what makes it so hard for unbelievers to believe,
and cleanness of the heart is what makes it so easy for believers to see Allah in such a clearness, that true believers don't understand how some people cannot see the clear truth.

The heart is what makes difference, between believing and not believing.

To really see the truth, as clear as the sun, one should cleanse his heart first, from diseases and impurities that may affect it, like : arrogance and pride, anger and hatered, earthly desires and interests, etc.
And then one should fill his heart with sincere will to seek truth, with justice and objectivity, with respect for others and for other ideas.
Now after being done with the heart, the way will be clear for our mind, all we have now is to open our mind for all the possibilities and to seek the truth everywhere, to discuss with people who claim that they have the truth, to read books and not to be stubbern if we see the convincing evidences and the clear truth. With that done I don't believe anyone will remain unbeliever.

But be careful, the job of the heart does not finish here. The heart always controls the level of your eeman (faith) : Working on your heart, by purifiying it and by increasing the amount faith in it.
We, Ahlu-s-Sunnah w'al Jama'ah ( who believe in Quran and Sunnah), believe that the level of faith in the heart is not constant. It fluctuates according to the state of the heart : eeman in the heart decreases by doing sins and by catching diseases in the heart, and it increases by doing purification and acts of worship (prayer, dua, fasting, quran, etc.).
Eeman in our heart moves up and down, from level0 = 0 belief = disbelief, to the highest levels of eeman : when you reach these highest levels, you will be hating the material pleasures of this life, and you will enjoy and delight the worship of Allah.

The more eeman increases in your heart the more your belief in Allah increases, that means the more your feeling of the existence of Allah gets stronger, and you feel that Allah is more close to you in all your states of life, and if this feeling of the existence of Allah in your life is so strong, you will be feeling that you live with Allah, and Allah is supporting you in all your matters. You will not feel the existence of other people around you or anything else, there is only Allah in your life and in your conscience, all the rest has no value for you. But few are who reach this level, let alone who stay in it.

Hadeeth : on the variation of the level of imaan through acts of worship (In Ryadhu-s-Saliheen, Imam Nawawi) :
Abu Rib'i Hanzala ibn ar-Rabi' al-Usaydi the scribe, one of the scribes of the Messenger of Allah, said, "Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, met me and said, 'How are you, Hanzala?' I said, 'Hanzala is a hypocrite!' I said, Glory be to Allah! What are you saying!' I said, 'We were with the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, who reminded us of the Garden and the Fire and it was as if we could see them with our eyes. When we leave the presence of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, we attend to our wives, children and estates in a state of great heedlessness.' Abu Bakr said, 'By Allah, we have experienced the same as this!' So Abu Bakr and I went to visit the Messenger of Allah and I said, 'Hanzala is a hypocrite, Messenger of Allah!' The Messenger of Allahmay Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'Why is that?' I said, 'Messenger of Allah, when we are with you,you remind us of the Garden and Fire and it is as if we could see them with our eyes. When we leave your presence, we attend to our wives, children and estates in a state of great heedlessness.' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'By the One in whose hand my soul is, if you were to remain in the state you are in when you are in my presence and in the dhikr, the angels would shake hands with you on your bed and in the street, but, Hanzala, different times are not the same.' three times." [Muslim]

[Sumaiya54]

Aslaamu Aleikum,

Why do I believe? The reasons that everyone else has said, pretty much.
And if you start looking for signs from Allah SWT you will start seeing them everywhere.
For example, my best friend emailed me asking me to be a Muslim the same day I was lost and needed guidance from God (did not know about Islam yet).
A lot of things like this happen to converts that isnt just a coincedence.

Salaam :)

[Hulk]

Beautiful

[Abu.Yusuf]

i think the biggest evidence [or one of the biggest evidence] is our own fitrah/natural disposition. Allaah [swt] created humans with certain 'built-in' features, these are inherent and part and parcel of being human [unless it is an exceptional case]. For example, the need to eat, sleep etc [survive], the desire to socialise, mate etc and also has given us a reverence instinct which by default allows us to know that we have a creator. This is evident especially at times of dire need. When we are in a really bad situation and there is no hope of help from any one else and we feel powerless, automatically our heart would want to call out to 'something out there'. This is mentioned in the Qur`aan as well, maybe some one can find the Verse?

The arrogant atheist would try and suppress this desire...

Ill tell you a little story, when i first started practising Islaam and tried to learn different arguments against non-Muslims, Shaytaan was trying to get to me and cast doubt about the existence of Allaah. And obv we know that Shaytaan tries harder on the one who wants to submit to Allaah.
The ironic part was that everytime i became doubtful about the existence of Allaah [swt] and in need of some sort of guidance, automatically i started to make Du'a to Allaah....

So I realised that I dont need to ask anyone else in the entire world, and i dont need to explore the whole massive universe for proof of a creator, the biggest evidence is inside my heart - i just need to ask myself.

[Muhammad]

:sl:

i think the biggest evidence [or one of the biggest evidence] is our own fitrah/natural disposition. Allaah [swt] created humans with certain 'built-in' features, these are inherent and part and parcel of being human [unless it is an exceptional case]. For example, the need to eat, sleep etc [survive], the desire to socialise, mate etc and also has given us a reverence instinct which by default allows us to know that we have a creator. This is evident especially at times of dire need. When we are in a really bad situation and there is no hope of help from any one else and we feel powerless, automatically our heart would want to call out to 'something out there'. This is mentioned in the Qur`aan as well, maybe some one can find the Verse?

Jazakallaahu khayran for this point. In addition to the evidence of reasoning, which many of the above posts highlight, fitrah is another evidence to establish the existence of Allaah (swt). It is an internal measurement that allows us to recognise that Islam is the truth. Mankind is born in a state in which Tawheed is integral, and the Prophets came to remind man of it, and to guide him to that which is integral to his original nature. We also know that Allaah (swt) took all the souls of the Children of Adam and made them testify concerning that He is their Lord, so every human being has the belief in God imprinted on his soul.

The following thread also mentions two other evidences for the existence of Allaah (swt) - the revealed texts of the Qur'an and Sunnah, and the 'senses': http://www.islamicboard.com/tawheed-...ief-allah.html

[Person1001]

I havent come across any watertight arguments for or against an ultimate Creator.
However, I feel as though something is drawing me towards finding faith. :S

[Muhammad]

Perhaps it's your fitrah. :)

[Islamforlife]

Well my reasons are only for my understanding, but I've experienced too many real things for them to be just coincidences, which that proves to me that Allah (swt) exists and encompasses everything.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

there is so much evidence, everywhere I look I see evidences.

noun
1.
that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.

To me my own existence is proof enough

2.
something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign: His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever.

This is everything I see around me.

3.
Law. data presented to a court or jury in proof of the facts in issue and which may include the testimony of witnesses, records, documents, or objects.

The Quran fulfils this part as do the hadith.

[Ibn Masud]

I was asked this question a long time ago and the answer I came up with was simple, Allah revealed the Quran to us to prove his existence, that is a 1400 year old claim [he did this continuously throughout history] , to disprove the existence of Allah you have to disprove the truth of the Quran first. If an atheist wants an empirical proof of Allah's existence then he has it there in a physical book sent down by Allah. Carrying out the task of disproving Allah scientifically would mean he would have to study what Islam claims about him, his attributes and qualities, once you get into that you would then realise this isn't a shallow task of simply saying since I cant physically prove his existence then he does not exist, which is what all atheists really do. The simple realisation is that the scientific tools haven't been invented to carry out the task, just like teleportation hasn't been invented yet. You have to make the atheist realise the short-sightedness of there assertions and how they really haven't thought things through. We have been getting revelations from Allah all through out history on what basis did they throw that out the window?

[cottonrainbow]

I believe that Allah exists and the proof is all around us:

• The creation of life itself: The miracle of pregnancy and childbirth is all too amazing!
• Nature: I don't know of any person who can recreate self-sustaining trees, oceans, grass, ants, elephants, sunlight, the planets, etc.
• Emotions: Love, Hate, Jealousy, Happiness--These are things we feel each and every day, yet we don't see them in a solid matter-like form.

[fairy333]

Assalamalaikum,
Science is just for humans...humans need explanation,Allah (swt) is The Creator of all..We believe what we see, but in Islam one has to believe in Allah even if the eye cannot see Him, that is what is faith:)

[MustafaMc]

I believe that Allah exists and the proof is all around us:

• The creation of life itself: The miracle of pregnancy and childbirth is all too amazing!
• Nature: I don't know of any person who can recreate self-sustaining trees, oceans, grass, ants, elephants, sunlight, the planets, etc.
• Emotions: Love, Hate, Jealousy, Happiness--These are things we feel each and every day, yet we don't see them in a solid matter-like form.

Assalamu alaikum, sister. My opinion is that what you wrote are examples of deductive, indirect evidences for the existence of Allah. The first one being the sexual reproduction of higher organisms. I know a bit about biology and I agree that the male and female reproductive organs, the corresponding gametes and the process for their coming together and developing into a new individual is most miraculous event and I believe that it could not have arisen by random chance without a Creator directing and controlling its development. Yes, there exists other things that we can't measure or observe directly, but we still know they exist. Take for example oxygen. Oxygen has existed since before the very first living organism, but only recently did humans have any knowledge of its existence and of why it is important for life to exist. No one has ever seen, touched, tasted or smelled an oxygen molecule, but we know of its existence. In contrast the existence of Allah (swt) is orders of magnitude beyond our ability to comprehend, but for the discerning individual our knowledge of the creation points to the existence of a Creator that exists outside of our realm of existence which is that of time and space. Illustrating our incapacity to think outside of this realm and to understand Allah (swt), a simple point should suffice - what is 1 millimeter beyond the farthest reaches of the universe, or what existed one millisecond before the Big Bang? Even with my extremely limited understanding, I am left in awe of the One to Whom we pray and worship, subhan'Allah, glory to Allah (swt).

[Amat Allah]

Assalaamu Alikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh

I am not knowledgeable but a very simple person but as I saw, read, knew and understood; Qur'aan is full of them and to those who can not understand Qur'aan then they can read the books of Miracles of the Qur'an and hadeeth too ; they will find many things explained there in shaa Allah...

to me; Allah Is exist and I feel Him in everything and everywhere; I know He Is there watching over me, taking care of me, giving me and protecting me. So much had happened; unexplained things telling me how much He Is here with me ...O Allah make me deserve being Your slave and servant O Allah Ameeeen

We only need to see not just with our eyes but heart and mind too and then will know that He Is exist The Exalted The Most High and will also taste the sweetness of real happiness, inner peace, content and pleasure...laa ilaha illa Allah.

may Allah lead our way to Him and keep us guided and firm on His path of truth and success in dunya and Akhirah Ameeen

[MustafaMc]

"He is the First and the Last, and the Manifest and the Hidden, and He has knowledge of everything." Al-Hadid 57:3 "How is it that you do not believe in Allah when the Messenger calls you to believe in your Lord..." 57:8

[MustafaMc]

(continuing) Footnote in Mawdudi translation to ayat 57:3 "These are some of God's major Attributes: God has always been even when there was nothing else and He will always be even when there will be nothing else. Furthermore, God is the Most Manifest of the manifest, for whatever is manifest is so because of His Attributes, His Work and His Light. He is also the Most Hidden of the hidden. This is because He cannot be grasped by the senses. Additionally, His essence and reality defy man's intellect, thought and imagination."

[MustafaMc]

Since we have no direct, tangible evidence of Allah (swt) and since He is beyond our capacity to comprehend, how do we know the One we worship? We know Him by His names and His attributes. I came across a few ayah at the end of Surah Al-Hashr that I felt are appropriate here, "He is Allah: there is no god but He; the Knower of the unseen and the manifest, He is the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate. He is Allah: there is no god but He: the King, the Holy, the All-Peace, the Giver of security, the Overseer, the Most Mighty, the Overpowering, the All-Great. Exalted be He from whatever they associate with Him. He is Allah, the Planner, the Executer and Fashioner of creation. His are the names most beautiful. Whatever is in the heavens and the earth extols His Glory. He is the Most Mighty, the Most Wise." 59:22-24

[Sidi Naeem]

Assalamu` Alaykum,

Shabir Ally has spoken about this topic before, "Does God exist?" You may want to look up one of his videos on YouTube where you will find a thorough explanation if you'd like. I cannot post any links as of yet so you will have to search for "Shabir Ally does God exist" second video listed on YouTube.

[Abu Loren]

If you ask if there is any evidence for the existence ofGod I would answer yes It’s everything that you see, hear and touch. Then I wouldsay that believing in Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala is not through proof but throughfaith.

Why doyou believe in Allah (swt)?
Life ismeaningless if you believe that you are just born then live and then you die.What is the point of living in this world for 60-70 years then you turn todust.
Believingin Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala gives a purpose to my life. I know where I camefrom, where I’m going and where I will end up (OK it could be either/or).Believing in Him also makes you a better human being as you strive to live alife according to His pleasure. The reward that is offered for a life that ispleasing to Him is unimaginable, and Insha’Allah it should be the finaldestination of all human beings

[MustafaMc]

If you ask if there is any evidence for the existence ofGod I would answer yes It’s everything that you see, hear and touch.

Yes, we have indirect evidence of the Creator through His creation which are referred to in the Qur'an as signs. However, we have no direct, observable evidence of His existence and, yes, that is where faith comes in to play an essential role.

[Eric H]

If we are just using science and engineering to try and prove the need for a creator then look at this attempt to make a human robot by Honda, a massive company with huge resources and technology. Created with a large amount of intelligent design, it might be impressive as a robot, but we can see its short comings compared to the average human body,

How can blind evolution without intelligent design create a far superior body than this intelligently designed robot, putting together 200 bones a few hundred ligaments, tendons and muscles, plus all the sensors and computers.

Sorry the video does have some background music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_m56irWKeI


Take care

Eric

[AL BASAIR MEDIA]

“ Were they created by nothing, or were they themselves the creators?

Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather, they are not certain.

Or do they own the treasures of thy Lord? Or have they been given charge (thereof)? ”

{ Sura At-Tur, 52 : 35-37 }

[Ahmad H]

The Qur'an is the proof of Allah. The miracles of the Holy Prophet (saw) are a proof of Allah. The acceptance and the blessed nature of the answering of prayers by Allah are a proof of Him. And dreams are signs of the proof of His existence as well, since they are one of the parts of Prophethood left behind for us Muslims.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i just wanted to put a thought out here


pursuing knowledge for the sake of defending islam - although noble - may not always be the best intention to hold.

i personally have found that my knowledge remains strongest when i try to gain knowledge to be better aware of Allah


hope this isnt out of place here

[observer]

If we are just using science and engineering to try and prove the need for a creator then look at this attempt to make a human robot by Honda, a massive company with huge resources and technology. Created with a large amount of intelligent design, it might be impressive as a robot, but we can see its short comings compared to the average human body,

How can blind evolution without intelligent design create a far superior body than this intelligently designed robot, putting together 200 bones a few hundred ligaments, tendons and muscles, plus all the sensors and computers.

Sorry the video does have some background music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_m56irWKeI


Take care

Eric

The difference here is that we've been working on robotics for something like 50 years. Human evolution has been ongoing for millions of years. Why should we expect robotics to be as advanced as humans after such a short period of time?

A lot of people who argue against evolution forget to consider the time scales that we're talking about. Millions or hundreds of millions of years.

[the_stranger]

I do have to admit that the whole dinosaurs thing puzzles me, though.

Sorry for being late to the conversation...

But I would like to ask why so many people are upset/frustrated by the existence of dinosaurs? Does the existence of dinosaurs somehow negate the existence of Allah? This question isn't meant to be argumentative, I'm genuinely curious.

Also, why are so many people bothered by the theory of evolution? Personally, I think evolution is as much a theory as gravity is, but I find that this strengthens my belief in Allah. The way I see it is who/what else could devise such a complex and efficient plan?

And to throw in my two cents on the existence of Allah, I agree with CosmicPathos. If we deny the existence of Allah, then we kind of have to accept infinite regress, which doesn't make sense. This isn't the only reason I believe in Allah, but it is one of the easier ones for me to explain.

[MustafaMc]

But I would like to ask why so many people are upset/frustrated by the existence of dinosaurs? Does the existence of dinosaurs somehow negate the existence of Allah?

Dinosaur fossils as evidence for the previous existence of species of life that no longer exist do not bother me, nor do they negate or compromise my belief in creation of all existing and extinct species of life by Allah (swt).

Also, why are so many people bothered by the theory of evolution? Personally, I think evolution is as much a theory as gravity is, but I find that this strengthens my belief in Allah. The way I see it is who/what else could devise such a complex and efficient plan?

Neither does the theory of evolution challenge my faith in Allah (swt) as my creator. I have some understanding of how each individual begins as a unicellular fertilized egg and then goes through specific, programmed cellular divisions and tissue differentiation to become a unique individual. All necessary information is contained in the DNA of that fertilized egg, but it wouldn't develop outside of the environment of a woman's uterus. This example of an individual can be seen as an analogy for how its species could have originated from a unicellular Common Ancestor, but how all of the necessary genetic changes came about merely by chance seems ludicrous to me. That Allah (swt) created the first pair of each species intact seems more reasonable.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

believing in evolution has disastrous affects on imaan. adam alaihissalam was created by Allaah not evolved and we are hus descendants.

beware of the shaytan and his traps

[the_stranger]

This example of an individual can be seen as an analogy for how its species could have originated from a unicellular Common Ancestor, but how all of the necessary genetic changes came about merely by chance seems ludicrous to me. That Allah (swt) created the first pair of each species intact seems more reasonable.

Would you please elaborate on this? I find it very interesting and I want to take advantage of your scientific knowledge, as well as your knowledge of Islam.

Thanks!

[MustafaMc]

Would you please elaborate on this? I find it very interesting and I want to take advantage of your scientific knowledge, as well as your knowledge of Islam.

I have no knowledge of the exact means of our creation. There are several ayah in the Qur'an about creation such as,

{Allah hath created every animal of water. Of them is (a kind) that goes upon its belly and (a kind) that goes upon two legs and (a kind) that goes upon four. Allah creates what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.} 24:45

{And He it is Who hath created man from water...} 25:54

{...We have created you from dust, then from a drop of seed, then from a clot, then from a little lump of flesh shapely and shapeless, that We may make (it) clear for you...} 22:5

{Verily We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered,} 15:26

When I wrote "can be seen as an analogy" I meant only from an external physical appearance of similarity in the embryological development of individuals of various animal species from a fertilized egg to an embryo to a zygote to an infant to an adult as being similar to what evolution presumes as the means for the origin of species from a Common Ancestor. What ToE completely lacks though is that the entirety of genetic information required for a complete individual of a species is present within the fertilized egg and that development comes only inside the womb of its mother. There is much similarity in the genetic code of different species including the same 4 nucleic acids adenine, thymine, cytosine and guanine arranged in a DNA double helix. This is used as evidence for descent from a Common Ancestor. If one takes the example of a horse and a donkey or a zebra, they are physically very similar and mating between them can produce viable offspring BUT those offspring are sterile and do not reproduce. One can presume from this viable mating a common ancestor from which the species diverged; however, despite the high degree of genetic similarity the differences in chromosome number and structure could not have arisen merely by chance and a long period of time. The presence of genetic mutations in germ cells that become sperm or eggs is presumed to be the source for 'species building' genetic variation, but if one uses his mind he will know that those mutations lead to less fit not more fit individuals. Think in terms of offspring from parents exposed to radiation at Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Chernobyl, and Fallujah (search for images Fallujah depleted uranium) and you will get a sense of what I am talking about. For a much less dramatic example, think about how a human with Down's Syndrome is basically sterile despite only having one extra chromosome.

Now let's go to the other extreme and place into the mix an intelligent agent such as man. Through understanding genetic principles and extensive experimentation man has learned to genetically engineer bacteria, plants and animals. For example, plants have been genetically manipulated to produce a bacterial toxin that kills insects. Now let me ask, "Despite the incredible survival advantage, would this exact change EVER have happened in nature without the involvement of an intelligent being directing the processes even over the course of a zillion years?" Can this brief example shed light on how inadequate ToE is in explaining the origin of the species through entirely naturalistic processes without the active design and involvement of a Creator?

[جوري]

Sahih International
I did not make them witness to the creation of the heavens and the earth or to the creation of themselves, and I would not have taken the misguiders as assistants.

[Born_Believer]

Yes, to answer the original question. I'm sorry if I repeat points that have already been made (I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread).

Evidence that Allah exists is all around us, in nature, whether it be here on Earth or out in space. The evidence is also available in the Qu'ran and through the teachings of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). I personally believe that scientific evidence is not necessary for belief in God/Allah. Having said that, I've spent much of my life studying science (a Bsc in Biomedical Sciences and currently a medical student) and the more I learn, the more I find tit to be total madness that someone, especially those who are learned, can claim that Allah does not exist.

Islam how ever, managed to bridge the gap between religion and science. I'm sure all of you have heard of the scientific facts which are revealed by the Almighty in the Qu'ran and only recently been proven by science. I ask you, what more does man want as evidence?

The Qu'ran says it best:

[ Verily! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, and the ships which sail through the sea with that which is of use to mankind, and the water which Allaah sends down from the sky and makes the earth alive therewith after its death, and the moving {living} creatures of all kinds that He has scattered therein, and in the veering of winds and clouds which are held between the sky and the earth, are indeed aayaat {proofs, evidences,lessons, signs, revelation, etc.} for people of understanding.] Soorat Al Baqarah{2:164}

Allah guides whom he wills. Some of the most learned men on the planet are atheists and those without education believe in God with all their hearts.

[MustafaMc]

...are indeed aayaat {proofs, evidences,lessons, signs, revelation, etc.} for people of understanding.]

Yes, I agree with this ayat of course and it is indeed evidence to me of Allah's existence. However, these are indirect evidences that depend upon a level of 'understanding' that does not neccessarily come with a PhD in science. These evidences require the lens of faith to become evident.

[Woodrow]

Funny thing is how so many people want to find a scientific measuring device to prove the existence of Allaah(swt). We don't even know what such a device would need to consist of.

An analogy, most of us know what a thermometer is and it can be used to measure the existence of heat. We did not always have thermometers they are a fairly recent invention. Let us go back in time say 1000 years. What proof was there heat existed? It was purely a personal and subjective opinion. John says my bath water is cold his wife Mary says it is hot. Was there any way Mary could prove to John the water was Hot if he could not feel the heat? Does that mean heat did not exist until the invention of the thermometer?

So it is with Proof of Allaah(swt) those of us who believe, feel his existence. We do not need a thermometer, we know he exists. The non believers are like John in my Analogy. they assume that because they do not feel the warmth of Allaah(swt) he does not exist.


The warmth of Allaah(swt) is sufficient proof for me to know he exists.

[the_stranger]

The warmth of Allaah(swt) is sufficient proof for me to know he exists.

If this thread were a competition, then you just finished in first place :D.

[Pygoscelis]

And to throw in my two cents on the existence of Allah, I agree with CosmicPathos. If we deny the existence of Allah, then we kind of have to accept infinite regress, which doesn't make sense.

Infinite redress or eternal universe I suppose.

And infinite redress makes just as much sense to me as a God being (who has infinite powers, exists outside of time and space and needs no creator, etc). So I think this is mostly a matter of perspective.

[Pygoscelis]

An analogy, most of us know what a thermometer is and it can be used to measure the existence of heat. We did not always have thermometers they are a fairly recent invention. Let us go back in time say 1000 years. What proof was there heat existed? It was purely a personal and subjective opinion. John says my bath water is cold his wife Mary says it is hot. Was there any way Mary could prove to John the water was Hot if he could not feel the heat? Does that mean heat did not exist until the invention of the thermometer?

Heat is measurable outside the mind of the person sensing it. You don't need a modern thermometer to show heat exists. You just need to boil some water or thaw something. And indeed, people can sense heat that does not in reality exist (when neurons misfire). If you want to prove to anybody but yourself that Gods exist, you are going to have to do better than telling them you perceive something they don't.

[جوري]

Heat is measurable outside the mind of the person sensing it. You don't need a modern thermometer to show heat exists. You just need to boil some water or thaw something.

I guess the atheists of those days were the ones suffering Parietal Lobe Damage? :D

best,

[Pygoscelis]

I guess the atheists of those days were the ones suffering Parietal Lobe Damage? :D

best,

Perhaps.

Perhaps there is spiritual energy all around us and perhaps we have souls within us. Perhaps we can sense spiritual energy with our sensory organs and perhaps the organs or neurons processing their signals in the brains of atheists are faulty. If this is so then this spiritual energy and these souls should be detectable objectively, outside the minds of those perceiving them.

One interesting attempt to do so led to the meme that "the soul weighs 21 grams"

http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

Check it out :)

[جوري]

processing their signals in the brains of atheists are faulty. I

People with parietal lobe damage have difficulty identifying a sensation's location and type (pain, heat, cold, or vibration) hence, before thermometers were invented one can argue that mere sensation is the decider but then how about those who don't feel such things? Does it make heat, cold or pain any less non-existent?
Such is the analogy of modern day atheists.. they can be hit with a ton of bricks and will only have a concrete explanation of why that occurred. No secondary thought or at least no secondary thought that is of use to change their directionality!

best,

[Ahmad H]

Saying we feel God around us is not good enough to prove His existence. Otherwise, everyone would have felt that need to know God. But in history, very few actually truly searched for God. A lot of people are deceived by their minds to think too much about the subject.

The Prophets of God searched for God, and then God showed Himself to them by manifesting His revelations on them. There was a sense of mission to all of those men.

Another problem with approaching the existence of God with, "I feel Him surrounding us" is that it puts a sort of physical limitation on God, as if He is physical somehow. How do we know that? We don't. We really don't know anything about God except His attributes. Just because we say we know God in some way doesn't necessarily constitute itself as proof.

The Messengers of God searched for Him, and then He led them to Himself. The only way that they knew for sure that God was there, was that He contacted them when they wished and longed to have contact with Him. Then these Prophets of God became the Proofs of Allah, in that they showed the existence of God by means of signs and prophecies. They are things which, when Allah wills, He demonstrates to His creation to lead them to Him. It is rejection of a Prophet to be convinced in one's heart about these signs and prophecies and then completely deny it based on mere assumptions about those signs or prophecies and the Prophet who brought them.

When Allah says to look in the heavens and the earth for signs of Allah, there are specific reasons why we are to look there. Many people look there without knowing God, but it does not lead to the same realization as a Prophet of God has in their certainty, nor at the level of certainty of a believer in such a Prophet who became convinced of his signs and prophecies. The Qur'an has mentioned these signs, therefore we search for those signs and then we become more aware and convinced of God's existence. It isn't that we see what others don't. We simply know that God is there, and that the heavens and the earth demonstrate certain signs (Ayat) which Allah gave us in the Qur'an.

Again, what level of certainty is there on the mere inference that God exists because we deducted that by observing the universe? Atheists come up with completely opposite conclusions for very good reasons. The reason is that the universe does not reveal God, God reveals Himself. What better proof is there about God than contact with Him? Atheists deny this contact humans have with God, which is why they relegate religion to fantasy. They do not believe in the possibility of contact with God because they don't see Him. Also for other reasons.

[GuestFellow]

I do not believe life comes from nothing. So that is what made me believe there is a creator.

Now there are so many different religions/ideologies so it is difficult to choose. However, from studying all of them Islam was different. Apart from the Quran, all the scriptures look as though it was written by humans. In my opinion the Quran could not have been written by a human. The way it's written is so different. Just compare the scriptures and you'll see what I mean.

[Ramadan90]

There is no need to prove that there is a God if you reflect. Look around you and reflect. You will come to the conclusion that there is a god.

And then there are many religions which makes it hard to find the right path. Study and see what religion makes sense. Live it and see if it makes a diffrence in your life. If you put in the effort to find the truth, Allah will guide you.

[Pygoscelis]

I do not believe life comes from nothing. So that is what made me believe there is a creator.

Life coming from nothing makes just as much sense to me as sentient creator coming from nothing. Ultimately something has to either come from nothing or be eternal, and I see no reason why going one step back (or thousands of steps back with creators of creators) does anything to solve the problem or make it more likely.

Now there are so many different religions/ideologies so it is difficult to choose. However, from studying all of them Islam was different. Apart from the Quran, all the scriptures look as though it was written by humans. In my opinion the Quran could not have been written by a human. The way it's written is so different. Just compare the scriptures and you'll see what I mean.

Of course you believe that. You are a Muslim. This uniqueness of the Quran making it so special that it couldn't be written by humans is a heavily biased perception. It was written by a human hand, in a human language, in ink on paper. That is exactly how I would expect a human claiming to speak for a God to do it. A God himself could do much better and communicate much more clearly and directly and be certain to be heard, believed, and understood by all.

[جوري]

A God himself could do much better and communicate much more clearly and directly and be certain to be heard, believed, and understood by all.

In fact all those who search for God do so without a book. They use reason!
Nothing can't create but something can create- You don't know the nature of God to try to compass him with your limited understanding & description.
The Quran or Torah or Injil came as a guideline for how God wants us to live in this life and to set the law, so folks aren't left to their devices on how said law should be.
Man can donate sperm father 156 children, wombs in India for rent, men getting bent for men.. that sort of thing, defines for us the moral code!

best,

[GuestFellow]

Life coming from nothing makes just as much sense to me as sentient creator coming from nothing. Ultimately something has to either come from nothing or be eternal

Before I address your point do you believe something comes from nothing?

[Hulk]

Its absurd to ask a question like "Who created the Creator", it's even sillier to say that "since the Creator has no creator then it makes sense that the universe has no creator".

[observer]

Its absurd to ask a question like "Who created the Creator", it's even sillier to say that "since the Creator has no creator then it makes sense that the universe has no creator".

Why is it absurd? It seems perfectly reasonable - if we say something can't come from nothing, well a creator would be something, so where did that something come from?

[Hulk]

Why is it absurd? It seems perfectly reasonable - if we say something can't come from nothing, well a creator would be something, so where did that something come from?

The Creator is not a creation. A creation comes from a Creator.

For an Islamic perspective one only has to reflect upon Sura Al Ikhlas where one of the verses say
"And there is none like unto Him."


Wanting to use the same logic for the material universe is absurd because just about anything that we can get our scientific hands on we can study, we can dissect, we can measure, and not only does this allow us to make use of knowledge of studying these things to our advantage but it also tells us that it has history.

Can one do the same with God? No.

Additionally, one has to reflect upon the characteristics of creation in terms of creatures and even law of the universe such as the speed of light/sound/etc. Do you think that these traits were out of nothing?

In the Quran we are reminded to reflect upon the perfect measure of creation. These are not from nothing. The problem you have is that you are trying to say "If something cannot come from nothing, then God must come from something is God is something."

No. Creation cannot come from nothing, and the Creator is not creation.

[M.I.A.]

Heat is measurable outside the mind of the person sensing it. You don't need a modern thermometer to show heat exists. You just need to boil some water or thaw something. And indeed, people can sense heat that does not in reality exist (when neurons misfire). If you want to prove to anybody but yourself that Gods exist, you are going to have to do better than telling them you perceive something they don't.

its an interesting answer because that is exactly the point!

the perception people have is narrow.

anything that is not acceptable is perceived as abnormal.


i could use the islamic analogy.. badly worded by myself.

that when the veil is lifted from a persons eyes then there is no ignoring the things that go on.

it does not give all the answers but it does change a persons perception.


and as people wander to the extremes they do condition themselves to observe certain things, sometimes by choice.


heat is subjective, to an extent.

people walk on hot coals for fun.

and others jump around naked in the snow.


others have situation awareness.

although what they are aware of is something that probably differs.


its like a scientist that constantly denies the existence of god, all the while ignoring the help he gets. the people he meets. the situations he encounters. every blessing that is sent.

simply because he is focused on his own objective.

i guess that is every individuals problem.

[GuestFellow]

No. Creation cannot come from nothing, and the Creator is not creation.

Well you summed up everything I was trying to say.

I think atheists/agnostics and even theists sometimes reduce the standard of God to our level. Some even give God human characteristics.

[observer]

I think atheists/agnostics and even theists sometimes reduce the standard of God to our level. Some even give God human characteristics.

Does the Quran not give human attributes to God? Mercy, anger and so on?

[GuestFellow]

Does the Quran not give human attributes to God? Mercy, anger and so on?

Yes but that's because to give Muslims an idea of what God is like. Since he is beyond our comprehension, that is probably why human characteristics are used to enable us to have an idea of what he is like. However those human characteristics should not be applied literally.

Some people reduce God's standard to a low level which can be borderline shirk. Some people believe God has human features or has relatives.

[observer]

Additionally, one has to reflect upon the characteristics of creation in terms of creatures and even law of the universe such as the speed of light/sound/etc. Do you think that these traits were out of nothing?

Well, "we don't know is the scientific answer". The problem with many religious adherents is that they accuse atheists of not having the answers as if that's a bad thing; we don't, we're looking for them. I hope someday we find them.

As for something coming from nothing, science is starting to suggest that this is perfectly possible. It also suggests that our concept of "nothing" is wholly inadequate.

My problem with the religious viewpoint is that it seems to say "We don't know the answer to this, so God must have done it." I can't accept that reasoning.

[جوري]

Does the Quran not give human attributes to God? Mercy, anger and so on?

Shaykh Ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked: There is a hadeeth narrated from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in which he forbids saying “May Allaah deform your face”, and says that Allaah created Adam in His image. What is the correct belief with regard to this hadeeth?

He replied: This hadeeth is proven from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), in which he said: “If any one of you strikes (another), let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in His image.” According to another version: “In the image of the Most Merciful.” This does not imply resemblance or likeness. What is meant, according to the scholars, is that Allaah created Adam with the ability to hear and see, and to speak when he wants. These are also attributes of Allaah, for He is All-Hearing, All-Seeing, and He speaks when He wants, and He has a Face, may He be glorified and exalted. But it does not mean that there is any resemblance or likeness. Rather the image of Allaah is different from that of created beings. What is meant is that He is All-Hearing, All-Seeing, and He speaks when He wants, and He created Adam also able to hear and see, with a face and hands and feet. But man’s hearing is not like Allaah’s hearing, his seeing is not like Allaah’s seeing, his speaking is not like Allaah’s speaking. Rather Allaah has attributes that befit His majesty and might, and man has attributes that befit him, attributes that are finite and imperfect, whereas the attributes of Allaah are perfect, with no shortcomings, infinite and without end. Hence Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “There is nothing like Him, and He is the All‑Hearer, the All‑Seer” [al-Shoora 42:11] “And there is none co‑equal or comparable unto Him” [al-Ikhlaas 112:4] So it is not permissible to strike the face or say “May Allaah deform your face”. End quote. Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh, 4/226

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/20652

[GuestFellow]

The problem with many religious adherents is that they accuse atheists of not having the answers as if that's a bad thing; we don't, we're looking for them. I hope someday we find them.

There is nothing wrong with not having the answers. Science is about explaining how things work, but it cannot address everything. I think people have to be reasonable here.

As for something coming from nothing, science is starting to suggest that this is perfectly possible.

Do you have evidence for this? If you don't, then that's fine. I'm not saying your wrong. We don't have access to suitable references at all times.

My problem with the religious viewpoint is that it seems to say "We don't know the answer to this, so God must have done it." I can't accept that reasoning.

Well how would you define a reason?

[جوري]

My problem with the religious viewpoint is that it seems to say "We don't know the answer to this, so God must have done it." I can't accept that reasoning.

That is your problem alone along with other atheists. What you'd classify as science today which differs from what science was 200 years ago and certainly different still if there's still life two hundred years from now doesn't offer answers to the most basic of questions, isolating the gene that causes schizophrenia for instance, a cure for the common cold, the Usage of immunoglobilin D and the list goes on and on, yet pretends to offer an explanation to the origin of life and evolution of man from which the masses are meant to hang their hopes and beliefs?
and no the concept of spontaneous generation is long dead!
There should be no room for pseudo science or poetic science, and since you offer no viable explanation for the tough question then there really shouldn't be the slightest rudimentary remark as to why many subscribe to 'God Must have done it' Frankly life is too short and bizarre to subscribe to some random beliefs as dreamt up by an atheist.

best,

[Hulk]

Well, "we don't know is the scientific answer". The problem with many religious adherents is that they accuse atheists of not having the answers as if that's a bad thing; we don't, we're looking for them. I hope someday we find them.

As for something coming from nothing, science is starting to suggest that this is perfectly possible. It also suggests that our concept of "nothing" is wholly inadequate.

My problem with the religious viewpoint is that it seems to say "We don't know the answer to this, so God must have done it." I can't accept that reasoning.

Then one has to define one's idea of nothing. If by nothing you mean empty space then that is still something. And if by nothing you mean absolutely nothing not even space then you have to wonder what caused it to change. Either way there is a source.

As for "We don't know the answer to this, so God must have done it.".
Well the problem with that is that you blanket all theists with that frame of mind. I think many muslim scientists(or muslims in general) would disagree. Understanding how something works does not negate that it has a source.

And to add:
Islam places great importance in seeking knowledge. If TRULY seeking knowledge leads one to disbelieve that surely this wouldn't have been encouraged. So that itself is worth reflecting on.

[observer]

Do you have evidence for this? If you don't, then that's fine. I'm not saying your wrong. We don't have access to suitable references at all times.

Yes and no! It's a horribly complex area and I'm merely an interested amateur. Essentially, what I'm talking about here leads from Heisenberg's work and we see now with the idea of "vacuum energy" or "vacuum particles" where energy/particles (the same thing, essentially) appear to come from nothing.

As I said, this might really be something from nothing or it could be that what we think of as nothing is completely flawed. Time will tell (hopefully, I'm an optimist :) )!

[observer]

Then one has to define one's idea of nothing. If by nothing you mean empty space then that is still something.

We may well have to redefine what "nothing" is. I certainly can't do it!

[جوري]

Then one has to define one's idea of nothing

There's NO idea here. We didn't always exist on this earth per science, so per science as well they should put together the zillions of biochemical and physiological pathways & reactions all the way to a complex being with higher reticular function in two separate sexes across the species and make it so it is applied and empirical and reproducible for that is truly how science works. They don't like 'God of the gaps' and likewise we don't like pseudo science.These are their beliefs no more no less and I am not big on substituting one belief for another because it is en vogue!

:w:

[observer]

and no the concept of spontaneous generation is long dead!
There should be no room for pseudo science or poetic science,

No I don't mean spontaneous generation but vacuum energy / particles. Pseudo science it certainly is not - whether it's right or wrong remains to be seen; that's the beauty of science!

[Hulk]

There's NO idea here. We didn't always exist on this earth per science, so per science as well they should put together the zillions of biochemical and physiological pathways & reactions all the way to a complex being with higher reticular function in two separate sexes across the species and make it so it is applied and empirical and reproducible for that is truly how science works. They don't like 'God of the gaps' and likewise we don't like pseudo science.These are their beliefs no more no less and I am not big on substituting one belief for another because it is en vogue!

I can imagine it now.. "By nothing we mean something"

[جوري]

No I don't mean spontaneous generation but vacuum energy / particles. Pseudo science it certainly is not - whether it's right or wrong remains to be seen; that's the beauty of science!

You failed to showcase how vacuum energy brings about life, beings, higher reticular function in a positive forward fashion. Yes science is beautiful, it is a way for us to describe the world we find ourselves in and deal with some of its problems. NO more NO less!

best,

[observer]

You failed to showcase how vacuum energy brings about life, beings, higher reticular function in a positive forward fashion.

I fear that that task may be beyond me! :D

[جوري]

I can imagine it now.. "By nothing we mean something"

Fact of the matter is, most atheists are self described scientists even though science isn't their field of study and it is fine not everyone who goes through academia is brilliant or vice versa, they're also self described 'free thinkers' - which again I think is probably a method to make themselves ok with their life style choices... What I absolutely abhor however, is the intellectual bullying and false self aggrandizement because you know when we get down to the nitty gritty they answer jack of the tough questions. As I stated I am not personally interested in pseudo science or science from which no plausible and replicable inference can be made!

[جوري]

I fear that that task may be beyond me! :D

Hats off to you then & thanks for your honesty!

[GuestFellow]

Yes and no! It's a horribly complex area and I'm merely an interested amateur. Essentially, what I'm talking about here leads from Heisenberg's work and we see now with the idea of "vacuum energy" or "vacuum particles" where energy/particles (the same thing, essentially) appear to come from nothing.

As I said, this might really be something from nothing or it could be that what we think of as nothing is completely flawed. Time will tell (hopefully, I'm an optimist :) )!

Fair enough. It is hard for me to comprehend for something to come from nothing.

Fact of the matter is, most atheists are self described scientists even though science isn't their field of study and it is fine not everyone who goes through academia is brilliant or vice versa, they're also self described 'free thinkers' - which again I think is probably a method to make themselves ok with their life style choices... What I absolutely abhor however, is the intellectual bullying and false self aggrandizement because you know when we get down to the nitty gritty they answer jack of the tough questions. As I stated I am not personally interested in pseudo science or science from which no plausible and replicable inference can be made!

I would say from my experience some atheists view science as an ideology when really it's just a means to explain how things occur. Then these explanations are used to solve problems. Science is neutral. It does not take sides.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

you know on this topic i recently had a shocking discussion with a colleague of mine

i kept on telling him to go back to the beginning where the first of anything ever came into existence and to give me an answer as to how that came into existence but he still refused to say god instead he kept saying " random chance" in order for there to be random chance there has to be somthing to give cause to the chance.


i couldnt believe how blind people can be. was honestly shocked

[observer]

What I absolutely abhor however, is the intellectual bullying and false self aggrandizement because you know when we get down to the nitty gritty they answer jack of the tough questions. As I stated I am not personally interested in pseudo science or science from which no plausible and replicable inference can be made!

I think it's unfair to say that science fails because it doesn't have all the answers; it doesn't claim to, it merely tries to answer the questions. I'm not sure why you use the word pseudo-science, or why you think that these kinds of theories are not plausible or replicable? 100 years ago quantum physics seemed utterly ridiculous. Now, our world could not function without it.

I think generally that the religious and the atheistic are looking for answers, they just find them in different places - religion in scripture and atheists (some of them anyway) in experiment and observation.

[observer]

Fair enough. It is hard for me to comprehend for something to come from nothing.

I think if anyone said they could comprehend that then they'd be lying! But you've got to love a mystery :D

[Pygoscelis]

you know on this topic i recently had a shocking discussion with a colleague of mine

i kept on telling him to go back to the beginning where the first of anything ever came into existence and to give me an answer as to how that came into existence but he still refused to say god instead he kept saying " random chance" in order for there to be random chance there has to be somthing to give cause to the chance.


i couldnt believe how blind people can be. was honestly shocked

It always surprises me how few people will simply admit the truth: They Don't Know.

Why they feel the need to invent or latch onto quick explanations for what they don't know is something I've never been able to understand. If you don't know something, that doesn't mean it was random chance. If you don't know something, that doesn't mean God Did It. If you don't know something it means you don't know something.

We don't know how reality came to be or if it came to be (as opposed to always having been). Science can come up with theories, but it can't ever know with certainty. Religious people can have faith that a creator God is the answer, and so long as they present unfalsifiable claims that's all it can ever be: Faith.

[observer]

Fact of the matter is, most atheists are self described scientists even though science isn't their field of study

I think that's fair, although I think most atheists would describe themselves as "lovers of science" rather than "scientists". I love science, but I'm no scientist! I don't fully understand much of what I read but it boggles the mind and that's what I love.

[جوري]

I think it's unfair to say that science fails because it doesn't have all the answers; it doesn't claim to, it merely tries to answer the questions. I'm not sure why you use the word pseudo-science, or why you think that these kinds of theories are not plausible or replicable? 100 years ago quantum physics seemed utterly ridiculous. Now, our world could not function without it.

I work with science everyday and I see its short comings. I have already stated it is a way for us to understand the physical world deal with some of its problems. I believe you are reiterating something I have already stated but with a twist of unfairness which I think is quite accurate and quite fair. I don't desire to have faith in science I desire facts and only facts & data!

I think generally that the religious and the atheistic are looking for answers, they just find them in different places - religion in scripture and atheists (some of them anyway) in experiment and observation.

Not really. Religious find the answers in everything or desire to look for answers in everything whereas the atheists are of one track mind and put all their beliefs in something where there is no room for a belief system.
I don't go tell a pt. I believe you've pancreatitis, or I believe you've an aortic dissection.. how horrifying would that be? Would you seek treatment, major surgery based on a belief?
I think a little honesty needs to be exercised from atheists if they hope to be taken more seriously.

best,

[GuestFellow]

you know on this topic i recently had a shocking discussion with a colleague of mine

i kept on telling him to go back to the beginning where the first of anything ever came into existence and to give me an answer as to how that came into existence but he still refused to say god instead he kept saying " random chance" in order for there to be random chance there has to be somthing to give cause to the chance.


i couldnt believe how blind people can be. was honestly shocked

They may think they have the answers but are unable to convey their thoughts. That can happen.

[observer]

I don't go tell a pt. I believe you've pancreatitis, or I believe you've an aortic dissection.. how horrifying would that be? Would you seek treatment, major surgery based on a belief?

Yes, but that's a perfect example of where experiment and observation work to tell the doctor what the problem is. That's science right there.

[Hulk]

Many of us love science but some atheists misplace by thinking that the only way to arrive to a conclusion is through science, tossing reason out the window.

[جوري]

Yes, but that's a perfect example of where experiment and observation work to tell the doctor what the problem is. That's science right there.

It is a matter of risk assessment that perhaps I am not conveying to you properly. If you perform surgery based on beliefs there are consequences major ones. So you take precautions, that is the logical thing to do, you cross your T's and dot your I's. There's no lackadaisical approach to major surgery or major treatment and likewise there should be no lackadaisical attitude toward life, given its shortness and absurdity, we certainly spend more time dead than alive it would be terribly disappointing to go into the next phase based on a silly belief or assumption that we're naught but mere physical beings who expire to plant fertilizer and not accountable for anything we do while on this earth.

best,

[Pygoscelis]

I think that's fair, although I think most atheists would describe themselves as "lovers of science" rather than "scientists". I love science, but I'm no scientist! I don't fully understand much of what I read but it boggles the mind and that's what I love.

Depends on how you define "scientist". Science is not an area of study so much as an approach to solving problems. If you follow the scientific method, make and test and falsify a hypothesis, you could be called a "scientist". You wouldn't be a professional of course, but you would be a "scientist" in that sense of the word.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

It always surprises me how few people will simply admit the truth: They Don't Know.

Why they feel the need to invent or latch onto quick explanations for what they don't know is something I've never been able to understand. If you don't know something, that doesn't mean it was random chance. If you don't know something, that doesn't mean God Did It. If you don't know something it means you don't know something.

We don't know how reality came to be or if it came to be (as opposed to always having been). Science can come up with theories, but it can't ever know with certainty. Religious people can have faith that a creator God is the answer, and so long as they present unfalsifiable claims that's all it can ever be: Faith.

i respect that very much. but how does not knowing turn into disbelief and a blind belief in the discoveries made by science.

why has it become so ridiculous for a person to simply say that they find the theory of evolution to be too weak to accept or that scientific findings may exhude confidence but still be false. why is it ridiculous when i say that i find it easier to accept that the quran is a miracle from god because it is a language and format that has never been challenged during the peak of genius in the arabian poets society?

to me that stronger evidence trumps the weaker evidences produced by science. to me...

[observer]

It is a matter of risk assessment that perhaps I am not conveying to you properly. If you perform surgery based on beliefs there are consequences major ones. So you take precautions, that is the logical thing to do, you cross your T's and dot your I's. There's no lackadaisical approach to major surgery or major treatment and likewise there should be no lackadaisical attitude toward life, given its shortness and absurdity, we certainly spend more time dead than alive it would be terribly disappointing to go into the next phase based on a silly belief or assumption that we're naught but mere physical beings who expire to plant fertilizer and not accountable for anything we do while on this earth.

Ah OK, I see what you're saying. To be honest, I'd love it if there was a god. I really would, the idea that this isn't all there is is incredibly appealing. Unfortunately, I've seen nothing to convince me that there is, so I'm happy to do my best whilst I'm here, try and be good and leave having tried to make the world a little bit better. If there is nothing more, I'm fine with that.

If I started to follow religion just in case, as in Pascal's wager, I'd be being dishonest to myself and helping no-one.

[جوري]

and I can respect that, this is what your belief system has lead you to become. You've free will to live this life as you please & choose. There's no compulsion in religion.

peace,

[observer]

Depends on how you define "scientist". Science is not an area of study so much as an approach to solving problems. If you follow the scientific method, make and test and falsify a hypothesis, you could be called a "scientist". You wouldn't be a professional of course, but you would be a "scientist" in that sense of the word.

Yeah I suppose that's true. I suppose I'd class myself as a wannabe!

[Pygoscelis]

i respect that very much. but how does not knowing turn into disbelief and a blind belief in the discoveries made by science.

It shouldn't. Discoveries made by science should never be accepted by blind belief. They should be replicated, tested, modified, and replaced as better information and more data comes in. That's how science works.

why has it become so ridiculous for a person to simply say that they find the theory of evolution to be too weak to accept or that scientific findings may exhude confidence but still be false.

It isn't ridiculous. But I'd have to wonder if the person saying that has indeed reviewed all the evidence. If they have and still it wanting, I can respect that.

[GuestFellow]

It isn't ridiculous. But I'd have to wonder if the person saying that has indeed reviewed all the evidence. If they have and still it wanting, I can respect that.

Is it reasonable for lay people to review all the evidence? That's going to be tough work and time consuming. I don't think the majority of the population understand how evolution works.

[Hulk]

Below is part of the book "Maariful Quran"
It describes the three sources of knowledge, hopefully the atheists will read it and realise that science is not the only way to arrive to a conclusion. Even if you reject revelation, there is still reason. And it is with reason that one can understand that the universe has a Creator. Atheists who think that their five senses can perceive everything in existence clearly don't actually understand science (tried listening to something above 20kHz?)

The three sources of knowledge

1. Senses (science to some)
2. Reason
3. Wahy (Revelation)

The arrangement between these three sources of knowledge is such that each one has its limits, and a particular sphere of activity beyond which it does not work. In natural sequence, the knowledge of things man collects through his senses cannot be deduced through bland reason. For instance, you know by seeing a wall with your eyes that its colour is white.


But, should you close your eyes and try to find out the colour of that wall on the sole strength of your reason, this will then be impossible. Similarly, the knowledge of things that comes through reason cannot be discovered by senses alone. For instance, you cannot find out as to who made that wall by simply seeing it with your eyes or touching it with your hands. Not at all, you rather need reason to arrive at that conclusion.


In short, reason gives no guidance as far as the five senses work efficiently, and when the five senses become helpless, reason starts functioning. But, even the guidance given by this reason is not unlimited. This too stops at a certain limit. Then there are things the knowledge of which can neither be acquired through senses nor through reason.


For instance, to find out about this very wall, as to what manner of its use will please Allah Almighty and what manner of its use will displease Him, is possible neither through senses nor through reason. In order to give man the answer to such questions, the source that Allah Almighty has prescribed is what is known as Wahy. And the method it follows is that Allah Almighty selects one of His servants, ordains him as His messenger and to him He reveals His Word. This Word is Wahy.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

a lot of people around me recently, at work, have ben comparing the theory of evolution to the theory of gravity.

i dont get it. you can drop a pencil and tell me, this is gravity at work.

but even if you show me A catterpiller turning into a butterfly or a chameleon adapting to nature that doesnt prove evolution because how do we know that those creatures werent created and designed in that manner.

i remember in schhool evolution was taught as a simple theory but adaptation and survival of the fittest was taught as fact which is part of nature. now it seems like they are merging everything under the banner of evolution in an attempt to reduce the faith people once held in an all-wise creator who created his creatures j
with such sophistication that such means were possible.


fprgive this rant, expressing my mind a bit here. thank you for listening

[observer]

For instance, to find out about this very wall, as to what manner of its use will please Allah Almighty and what manner of its use will displease Him, is possible neither through senses nor through reason. In order to give man the answer to such questions, the source that Allah Almighty has prescribed is what is known as Wahy. And the method it follows is that Allah Almighty selects one of His servants, ordains him as His messenger and to him He reveals His Word. This Word is Wahy.

I've got no problem with senses and reason, but I can't accept revelation. Your argument can never persuade an atheist because it appeals directly to religion. It's like when someone tries to show the infallibility / divinity of the Bible or the Quran by quoting the Bible or the Quran.

[observer]

i remember in schhool evolution was taught as a simple theory

Everything in science is only a theory. "Theory" doesn't mean a sketchy idea. We use the word "theory" to denote that this is currently our best possible understanding, but that it is open to change. There is not one scientist who believes that evolution is fully described. We do, however, know that it works thanks to observation and experiment.

The idea that it was God who did it cannot be tested and, as such, is infallible. This is not a problem if you have faith, it is if you don't.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Everything in science is only a theory. "Theory" doesn't mean a sketchy idea. We use the word "theory" to denote that this is currently our best possible understanding, but that it is open to change. There is not one scientist who believes that evolution is fully described. We do, however, know that it works thanks to observation and experiment.

The idea that it was God who did it cannot be tested and, as such, is infallible. This is not a problem if you have faith, it is if you don't.

i realise this, is why i said "simple" theory. dont you feel that it has far heavier emphasis these days? it makes me very uncomfortable.

evolution can never be tried and tested. can it? this may be my ignorance but has anyone ever attempted to speed up evolution in an organism?

[GuestFellow]

i realise this, is why i said "simple" theory. dont you feel that it has far heavier emphasis these days? it makes me very uncomfortable.

No really. It's touched upon at school but not in significant detail. I'm basing this on my experience.

[جوري]

Everything in science is only a theory

Some theories are demonstrable with data and numbers and some are far fetched. Nothing is 100% in science and we can never set out to prove anything in science in fact if you'd like to read on your private time about the null hypothesis types I and type II errors, P values & confidence intervals. The scientific method CAN'T be applied to all theories. I can apply with numbers and experimentation pulmonary lung functions for instance but I can't use same or similar application to decide whether someone is schizoid, schizotypal, schizophreniform, of plain schizophrenic.
So they don't stand on equal footing and especially the ones dealing with evolution and origins of life. If you take a genetic course and learn specifically the chapters on mutations you'd see clearly what many of us try to argue scientifically against but to no avail, there's no room for Pseudo science the same way you make no room for God.

peace

[observer]

evolution can never be tried and tested. can it? this may be my ignorance but has anyone ever attempted to speed up evolution in an organism?

I'm not sure what trying to speed up evolution would prove (ignoring whether or not it would be possible), but there is plenty of evidence of evolution in the fossil record and more. We know it takes incredibly long time periods to occur and the evolution idea is tainted by "we came from monkeys" arguments which it absolutely does not say.

[جوري]

of evolution in the fossil record and more

fossil records tell us nothing other than said species existed. They don't showcase how a framshift, nonsense, missense mutation etc. etc for instant over an 'incredibly long period of time' turned an ape into a man or a coelacanth into a tiger. You use 26 letters to make seemingly endless words that have no relation to one another save the usage of syllables and by same token the alphabet for species involves the same building blocks to give a seemingly endless number of combinations. We share 50% of our genetics with bananas, it doesn't make us half fruit!

best,

[Hulk]

I've got no problem with senses and reason, but I can't accept revelation. Your argument can never persuade an atheist because it appeals directly to religion. It's like when someone tries to show the infallibility / divinity of the Bible or the Quran by quoting the Bible or the Quran.

I don't expect you to accept revelation as for now it seems to me that you don't even accept reason.
Do you believe that for something to exist, your senses must be able to perceive it?
Do you believe that the universe and everything in it has no source?

[observer]

They don't showcase how a framshift, nonsense, missense mutation etc. etc for instant over an 'incredibly long period of time' turned an ape into a man or a coelacanth into a tiger.

Do you say that because of the scientific evidence or because of your religion? I mean to say, that the evolution of man for example is well documented through the fossil record. It is not complete, it is far from complete, but it informs us of the process and experiment and observation fits the theory. In the future the theory may change, that's how science works.

So do you reject the evidence on the basis that it is scientifically unsound or that it doesn't agree with your religion?

[observer]

I don't expect you to accept revelation as for now it seems to me that you don't even accept reason.

I think that's unfair.

Do you believe that for something to exist, your senses must be able to perceive it?

Absolutely not.

Do you believe that the universe and everything in it has no source?

I don't know. We know a lot up to a fraction of a second after the big bang - anything before that is up for grabs at the minute!

[جوري]

Do you say that because of the scientific evidence or because of your religion? I mean to say, that the evolution of man for example is well documented through the fossil record. It is not complete, it is far from complete, but it informs us of the process and experiment and observation fits the theory. In the future the theory may change, that's how science works.

I say so because I examined all the evidence and I'd have no problem accepting evolution given that we don't know how God created or the process of creation:
18:51 to top

Sahih International
I did not make them witness to the creation of the heavens and the earth or to the creation of themselves,

if God created us in some form and then evolved said form or whatever means I don't know per religion, but per science the evidence doesn't add up!

So do you reject the evidence on the basis that it is scientifically unsound or that it doesn't agree with your religion?

As stated above it is unsound. What does 'documented through fossil record' mean to you? You should weave a picture of your understanding of that not simply put exhibit A next to exhibit B and be all like voila 'evolution'

peace

[Hulk]

I think that's unfair.

I'm sorry you feel that way it is only based on my fallible observation based on what you have said so far in this thread.

Absolutely not.

So what is your reason for not believing in a Creator? Because there is no "scientific evidence"?

I don't know. We know a lot up to a fraction of a second after the big bang - anything before that is up for grabs at the minute!

What does your reason(which you accept) tell you?

[observer]

What does 'documented through fossil record' mean to you.

Something like this http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence

Again, I don't say, and nor do proper scientists, that this is the be all and end all of theories. This theory will change. It is, however, the best theory we have. If you believe a religious origin then fine, but that is a faith based proposition.

[observer]

So what is your reason for not believing in a Creator? Because there is no "scientific evidence"?

Exactly, no evidence.

What does your reason(which you accept) tell you?

It tells me to wait until we know more, that we need to observe more, experiment more and create new, stronger theories.

[جوري]

Something like this http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence

Again, I don't say, and nor do proper scientists, that this is the be all and end all of theories. This theory will change. It is, however, the best theory we have. If you believe a religious origin then fine, but that is a faith based proposition.

Yes I am familiar with that website, as stated it isn't technical, it doesn't demonstrate the process for me, just states said means do this but in actuality they really don't!

[observer]

Yes I am familiar with that website, as stated it isn't technical, it doesn't demonstrate the process for me, just states said means do this but in actuality they really don't!

Yeah it's designed for the layman (like me). I think it does a good job of explaining though.

As an aside, I think that if there is a god then the evolution story and the wide variety of human ancestors that we've discovered only makes him/her more interesting!

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Exactly, no evidence.



It tells me to wait until we know more, that we need to observe more, experiment more and create new, stronger theories.

observation is good but it must be accompanied by piety.

stay away from what you know in your heart is wrong as you observe the you will come to the realisation which we have. this doesnt mean just no alcohol/fornication it means abstention from all vices

[observer]

observation is good but it must be accompanied by piety.

stay away from what you know in your heart is wrong as you observe the you will come to the realisation which we have. this doesnt mean just no alcohol/fornication it means abstention from all vices

But if I can't accept your God, why would I accept your God's definition of what is pious?

For example, I love a nice beer but I wouldn't rob someone. I think of myself as pretty pious but your god would send me to hell.

[Hulk]

Do you believe that for something to exist, your senses must be able to perceive it?

Absolutely not.

So what is your reason for not believing in a Creator? Because there is no "scientific evidence"?

Exactly, no evidence.

The above shows that you are still in a frame of mind where you believe that in order for something to exist, you must be able to perceive/experience it with either one of your five senses. Talk to a child and ask them if they believe they have a great great great great great grandfather, they will likely say yes as through reason they deduce that their parents must have their own parents and so forth. This is the problem a lot of atheists have placed themselves in while under the delusion that they are the "logical" ones.

All the best to you and I hope you will not allow yourself to be emotionally attached to an erroneous understanding. There is nothing to gain in defending an erroneous understanding except saving one's own pride at the price of knowledge. If truth is what one seeks then it doesn't matter on whose side it is on.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

But if I can't accept your God, why would I accept your God's definition of what is pious?

For example, I love a nice beer but I wouldn't rob someone. I think of myself as pretty pious but your god would send me to hell.

if you already had a religion i wouldnt ask you this but why not try the islamic form of abstinence?

couldnt hurt you to see how a month goes right?

[M.I.A.]

But if I can't accept your God, why would I accept your God's definition of what is pious?

For example, I love a nice beer but I wouldn't rob someone. I think of myself as pretty pious but your god would send me to hell.

i lol'd.

i mean why be any definition of good?

...especially if there is no reward.

and even then where do you draw the lines between good and bad?

its a huge grey area.

but somewhere in your head you have to know what your doing.


i mean even without any belief in an afterlife you could try to be "good" as a social experiment.

see if your friends and family notice.

how people react to your "good"

..and just carry on being a scientist.. ask your own questions.


(but why pretend to be someone else if you are comfortable in your own skin?)

you know on this topic i recently had a shocking discussion with a colleague of mine

i kept on telling him to go back to the beginning where the first of anything ever came into existence and to give me an answer as to how that came into existence but he still refused to say god instead he kept saying " random chance" in order for there to be random chance there has to be somthing to give cause to the chance.


i couldnt believe how blind people can be. was honestly shocked

imho challenging people's beliefs is not the easiest way to change an opinion. its like those chinese finger trap's.

but putting religion into any other sort of social context is extremely hard to do.

but i guess that allah swt makes of us what he wills.

[Pygoscelis]

a lot of people around me recently, at work, have ben comparing the theory of evolution to the theory of gravity.

i dont get it. you can drop a pencil and tell me, this is gravity at work.

Yes, that is gravity at work. But that is not the Theory of Gravity at work. The theory of gravity isn't that things fall down. The theory of gravity, which is actually not fully explained and has a lot of holes in it, is the attempt to explain WHY this happens.

[Pygoscelis]

The above shows that you are still in a frame of mind where you believe that in order for something to exist, you must be able to perceive/experience it with either one of your five senses. Talk to a child and ask them if they believe they have a great great great great great grandfather, they will likely say yes as through reason they deduce that their parents must have their own parents and so forth. This is the problem a lot of atheists have placed themselves in while under the delusion that they are the "logical" ones.

What if we asked Adam's kids if he had grandparents. He'd by this logic have to reach the same conclusion.

Note that Observer isn't saying that he knows your god does not exist. He is saying that he doesn't know and that he doesn't see any good reason or evidence to make him believe. I don't either.

And just because we can't disprove your unfalsifiable claim does not make it unreasonable for us not to accept it. This gets even moreso when you go beyond a mere creation force and go on to a sentient creator being, and then onto one that wrote a book, that wants us to do certain things and not others, that wants us to worship it, etc. I see no reason to accept your supernautral beliefs as true anymore than greek mythology or Iriqois mythology. We understand they are your customs, cutlure, and beliefs, but you can't expect us to accept them just because you do.

There is nothing to gain in defending an erroneous understanding except saving one's own pride at the price of knowledge. If truth is what one seeks then it doesn't matter on whose side it is on.

Is this your way of telling us you are leaving Islam? ;)

[MustafaMc]

Life coming from nothing makes just as much sense to me as sentient creator coming from nothing.

Why do you assume that the Creator had a beginning? Can you imagine the possibility that the Creator has an existence very much unlike ours with no beginning or end, no need for food or rest, all-knowing and all-powerful?

[Hulk]

I would respond to you mr pygo but this is probably the 20th time I've seen you displaying your inability to differentiate between the Creator and greek mythology. All of creation is evidence to the existence of a Creator, it is not the same as "greek mythology characters". This inability to differentiate roles reflect on how you think a niqab = ski mask.

[Ali Mujahidin]

Do you say that because of the scientific evidence or because of your religion? I mean to say, that the evolution of man for example is well documented through the fossil record. It is not complete, it is far from complete, but it informs us of the process and experiment and observation fits the theory. In the future the theory may change, that's how science works.

So do you reject the evidence on the basis that it is scientifically unsound or that it doesn't agree with your religion?

I have no problem with those findings of fossils. I also have no problems with those fossil scientists revising their stories every now and then. I am not rejecting their hypotheses outright but I have my own senses and my senses tell me that something is amiss.

Assuming that the evolutionists are right, then all living things have a common ancestor. So it should be logical to expect some kind of resemblance between the living things in existence today. I only take into consideration those in existence today because, as I mentioned in my first paragraph, there is no hard and fast rule or conclusion about those which are now extinct.

So among the living things in existence today, my senses tell me that man is unique. A thousand years ago, man lived a certain way with a certain level of technology which is rather different from what is available today. If the other living things came from a common ancestor, then my senses tell me that i should also see other species having some kind of advance in their way of living and level of technology.

So far I have yet to know of anything like that. As far as I know, a thousand years ago, spider spun their webs in the same way spiders spin their webs today. A thousand years ago, bees made their hives the same way bees make their hives today. Doesn't really seem logical. If all living things came from a common ancestor, then surely if man has progressed in the last one thousand years, at least one other specie, if not more, should also have advanced in the last one thousand years. Man, according to the evolutionists, (or at least according to what I think evolutionists think) are no different from the rest of the living things. According to them (I think) man is just a random phenomenon, nothing special, nothing outstanding at all.

Maybe I thought wrongly.

[Pygoscelis]

Why do you assume that the Creator had a beginning?

I don't. I don't even believe this creator of yours exists. Perhaps re-read what I wrote?

I said "life coming from nothing makes as much sense to me as a creator coming from nothing.

I would also say that our reality being eternal makes as much sense to me as a creator of our reality being eternal.

[Pygoscelis]

All of creation is evidence to the existence of a Creator

If you call it creation then you are presuming there is a creator in order to prove there is a creator. So you're not saying much at all.

, it is not the same as "greek mythology characters".

No, but that is the next step.

If you want to stop at a mere "creation force" and not claim it is sentient, not claim it speaks to us, not claim it sent us prophets, etc, then that is one thing. But once you start doing those things you are putting yourself on the same footing as greek mythology as far as non-muslims are concerned. From a non-muslim's perspective, there is no more convincing evidence for Allah than there is for Zeus, Odin, Ra, Shiva, Baal, etc.

This inability to differentiate roles reflect on how you think a niqab = ski mask.

That is an entirely separate discussion. I do not believe that niqabs are ski masks... I believe that you should have no more right to cover your face than I should, and that your religion should not entitle you to special treatment.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

there is no more convincing evidence for Allah than there is for Zeus, Odin, Ra, Shiva, Baal, etc..

evidences for Allaah are Quran and hus Messenger Muhammad both of which cannot be denied. no linguistic expert of the Arabic language can deny the miraculous eloquence of the Quran and no historian can, beingtrueto himself, after studying the history of our beloved, peace be upon him, deny that he was jndeed unlettered and was a simple man who suddenly took on this great mission with none other then the help of God.

pygo you cant say the evidences for Allaah snd gods like Ra are the same because of the fact that such a huge population of this world axxepts allah and with good reason as i stated above.

this evidence may not convince you who most likely indulge in many vices, but it has convinced those who mantain piety

[جوري]

We shouldn't keep the company of kaffirs if they'll lose their manners where it comes to the magistrate of :Allah::swt: it then becomes revolting not to mention wrong to engage sofahaa!

:w:

[Hulk]

If you call it creation then you are presuming there is a creator in order to prove there is a creator. So you're not saying much at all.

Not presuming, it is a reasonable conclusion. I would call a laptop a manufactured product and reason would have me deduce that there is indeed a laptop manufacturer. There is no "presumption".

No, but that is the next step.

If you want to stop at a mere "creation force" and not claim it is sentient, not claim it speaks to us, not claim it sent us prophets, etc, then that is one thing. But once you start doing those things you are putting yourself on the same footing as greek mythology as far as non-muslims are concerned. From a non-muslim's perspective, there is no more convincing evidence for Allah than there is for Zeus, Odin, Ra, Shiva, Baal, etc.

Exactly, no. So you admit that the idea of a Creator is NOT the same as a "greek mythology character". Yet you are trying to use that as an argument against a Creator. Not once in the last few posts did I ask you or observer to accept revelation as knowledge, I even said so in a few posts above, because you can't even use simple reason how am I to expect you to accept revealed knowledge?

That is an entirely separate discussion. I do not believe that niqabs are ski masks... I believe that you should have no more right to cover your face than I should, and that your religion should not entitle you to special treatment.

Indeed it is a separate discussion but it does reflect your inability to understand the differentiate roles of different things. A woman would wear a niqab out of modesty. A man in a ski mask? Doubtful. Yet they are to you the same.

[MustafaMc]

I don't. I don't even believe this creator of yours exists. Perhaps re-read what I wrote?

I said "life coming from nothing makes as much sense to me as a creator coming from nothing.

I would also say that our reality being eternal makes as much sense to me as a creator of our reality being eternal.

The statement "life coming from nothing makes as much sense to me as a creator coming from nothing" is rather confusing. The "life coming from nothing" not making sense seems to imply you believe that life as we know it today in one form or another has always existed and that the seminal ancestral life form gave rise to all extinct and existing species of life. Well to me, life and the species of life coming from nothing through the actions of an all-powerful, sentient (your term) Creator makes all of the sense in the world. Even if there was a Common Ancestor for all species of life, then it is illogical for higher, more complex species to spontaneously appear through entirely naturalistic processes without the direct and intimate involvement of a highly intelligent and powerful Creator. Coming from my perspective that a Creator is essential, then your statement "a creator coming from nothing" not making sense of a neccesity means that the creator had a beginning, hence the statement I made, "Why do you assume that the Creator had a beginning?"

[Pygoscelis]

evidences for Allaah are Quran and hus Messenger Muhammad both of which cannot be denied.

Most humans on earth don't agree with you. They are not muslims.

no linguistic expert of the Arabic language can deny the miraculous eloquence of the Quran and no historian can, beingtrueto himself, after studying the history of our beloved, peace be upon him, deny that he was jndeed unlettered and was a simple man who suddenly took on this great mission with none other then the help of God.

Accepting for the moment that your book is so well written (which many would dispute) and that your beloved was unlettered, do you think non-muslims are going to conclude that your beloved was aided by God or that he was aided by other men who could write?

pygo you cant say the evidences for Allaah snd gods like Ra are the same because of the fact that such a huge population of this world axxepts allah and with good reason as i stated above.

Truth isn't democratic. Allah isn't any more likely to exist as more and more people covert and come to believe he does. If Gods exist based on the number of beleivers, then how can you deny the existence of Shiva and Vishnu?

this evidence may not convince you who most likely indulge in many vices, but it has convinced those who mantain piety

Only the muslims who maintain piety. There are far more non-muslims than muslims who maintain piety. There are lots of other religions out there with people who are "Pious".

[Pygoscelis]

We shouldn't keep the company of kaffirs if they'll lose their manners

Why would you expect Kaffir to be polite to you given your constant rudeness towards them?

It is a very rare occassion that you have ever posted anything remotely resembling manners when addressing Kaffir. And Hulk just got through telling Observer he is incapable of rational thought. You would then demand manners from Kaffir?

[جوري]

Accepting for the moment that your book is so well written (which many would dispute) and that your beloved was unlettered, do you think non-muslims are going to conclude that your beloved was aided by God or that he was aided by other men who could write?

What kind of conclusion is that? Certainly not one based on study. It isn't just about 'well written' It is about Textual Integrity, logical Consistency, miraculous Features, supernatural Eloquence, prophecies, transcendence and coverage of every aspect of man's life, political, economical, laws of inheritance, social structure, worship not to mention it is the book upon which modern day Arabic grammar was built. If people were going to conclude that he was 'aided' shouldn't they have done so at the time when Arabic was at its peak and the poets used to compete by hanging their scrolls at kaaba for prizes of the most eloquent. Also he'd not only need a super poet, super predictor, super wise person but an archiver given the revelation of verses at times twenty years apart to flow contextually and in lyricism; one who would be so selfless as to not take any credit and for what purpose perhaps shouldn't that other person been a messenger instead but so that Muhammad :saws: would die poor with his armour pawned to a Jew at the time of his death. Where is your logic or reason or do you just want to take up web space repeating the nonsense that the net is redolent with, without the slightest thought or study. I don't really care whether or not you accept Islam and I do wish Muslims would stop casting pearls before swine but if you're going to be insulting or insinuating, then take it else where, it is a lucrative business from what I hear!
best,

[Pygoscelis]

Not presuming, it is a reasonable conclusion. I would call a laptop a manufactured product and reason would have me deduce that there is indeed a laptop manufacturer. There is no "presumption".

You said that creation is evidence for creator. That is a tautology. If we agree to call it creation, then of course it has a creator. If we don't pre-suppose it is creation, and call it something else, say "reality", we would then be looking at it differently and it wouldn't be so simple to declare it must be created.

Exactly, no. So you admit that the idea of a Creator is NOT the same as a "greek mythology character".

Sure.

Yet you are trying to use that as an argument against a Creator.

No I'm not.

Not once in the last few posts did I ask you or observer to accept revelation as knowledge, I even said so in a few posts above, because you can't even use simple reason how am I to expect you to accept revealed knowledge?

Read the thread title. You are not the only one posting here. And even if you were, are we not allowed to bring this stuff up ourselves?

Indeed it is a separate discussion but it does reflect your inability to understand the differentiate roles of different things. A woman would wear a niqab out of modesty. A man in a ski mask? Doubtful. Yet they are to you the same.

It doesn't matter what the supposed motivation is. You should not be allowed to claim special status and break laws the rest of us are required to follow based on your religion. If the woman wearing the niqab is may cover her face, then everybody else should be able to as well.

[جوري]

Why would you expect Kaffir to be polite to you given your constant rudeness towards them?

I haven't asked any kaffir to be 'polite' toward me and God knows where your compass lies all together. This is about respecting the rules of engagement when speaking about the religion of Islam, its messenger and books. I don't blame you for drawing the wrong conclusions all the time- it would indeed explain your life style choices & constant erroneous conclusions.

You're not owed politeness it is earned. But You owe respect to the board and its religion if you desire to remain a member here!

best,

[Pygoscelis]

The "life coming from nothing" not making sense seems to imply you believe that life as we know it today in one form or another has always existed and that the seminal ancestral life form gave rise to all extinct and existing species of life.

You are reading too much into it. I didn't say life coming from nothing makes no sense. I said it makes about as much sense as a creator coming from nothing. Both have X coming from nothing. One is one step removed from the other. You could go back into infinite redress or you could say something came from nothing somewhere along the line or you could say that something along the line was eternal. I see no reason to accept any point along the line more than any other based on what little evidence we have.

[Hulk]

You could go back into infinite redress

At first I thought it was a typo but why do you keep saying "redress"?

[Pygoscelis]

I haven't asked any kaffir to be 'polite' toward me and God knows where your compass lies all together. This is about respecting the rules of engagement when speaking about the religion of Islam, its messenger and books. I don't blame you for drawing the wrong conclusions all the time- it would indeed explain your life style choices & constant erroneous conclusions.

You're not owed politeness it is earned. But You owe respect to the board and its religion if you desire to remain a member here!

The irony here is that you have been rude to your fellow muslims here on this board far more than I ever have been.

If the other muslims here find me rude or disrespectful they can speak for themselves. You and your constant stream of insults frankly have no credibility on that.

[Pygoscelis]

At first I thought it was a typo but why do you keep saying "redress"?

lol Typo. I meant regress. I just told my nephew to change his clothes so he can play outside and I guess that word crept in there.

[جوري]

The irony here is that you have been rude to your fellow muslims here on this board far more than I ever have been.

Go ahead quote me!

If the other muslims here find me rude or disrespectful they can speak for themselves. You and your constant stream of insults frankly have no credibility on that.

They've been as well reporting you as to why the mods continue to put up with your frank insolence and for over half a decade is beyond me. I'll simply believe that it reflects the forgiving nature of Muslims, but someone has to point it out. Any insolence toward Islam, the prophet, the book will not be tolerated. I don't give a fig what you think of me or my behavior toward anyone it is merely a deflection from your end to water down your otherwise intolerable behavior and then pad it by crying about my so-called rudeness to like minded individuals as if a barricade against the truth!

[Hulk]

lol Typo. I meant regress. I just told my nephew to change his clothes so he can play outside and I guess that word crept in there.

I only brought it up because I noticed you used it a few pages back and then used it again just now

Infinite redress or eternal universe I suppose.

And infinite redress..

Got me wondering if it was an actual thing that I didn't know about but thanks for clarifying.

[Pygoscelis]

Dear Ms. العنود, if that is your real name, you change it so often,

This is a board where moderators have allowed people to wish death upon all atheists and call for the hunting down and killing of homosexuals with birds of prey. I hardly think calling the Quran well written or saying non-muslims don't accept the claims of Islam in the comparative religion section and a thread entitled "Is There Evidence of Allah's Existence" is going to cause much hardship here.

[Gator]

The argument about the beginning of the universe is based on ignorance. We have no idea how the universe came about.

We don't know if there was "nothing" before the universe began, we don't know if nothing is possible, we don't know if "something can come from nothing". As we have never experienced or experimented on "nothing", we don't know if it is even possible or what its characteristics are.

Based on this state of affairs, theists use a logical structure for the existence of God on trying to avoid a logical impossibility

Summary:

1. can't have an infinite regression,
2. so there must be a starting point,
3. this starting point can not be based on the laws of nature, because "something can't come from nothing",
Conclusion: There must be an uncreated creator specifically named allah who doesn't want women to show their hair in public and people to pay interest.

Is this basically the argument?

Thanks.

[جوري]

Dear Ms. العنود, if that is your real name, you change it so often,

This is a board where moderators have allowed people to wish death upon all atheists and call for the hunting down and killing of homosexuals with birds of prey.

You need to concentrate - you're all over the place.
Is this about me or about some random shmoo. I have asked for direct quotes regarding my person.
Secondly does wishing death upon you or homosexuals mean anything? People wish all the time, I find actions to be more deleterious than wishes frankly. So hopefully you can see the disparity between your hurt feelings and people bound, gagged and torched alive for being Muslim but this like your topic on wishes or my alleged rudeness is a subject for another day and another thread. When we're discussing Islam, God, the noble book or the prophet I expect nothing but utmost reverence & respect!

I hardly think calling the Quran well written or saying non-muslims don't accept the claims of Islam in the comparative religion section and a thread entitled "Is There Evidence of Allah's Existence" is going to cause much hardship here.

& that was the hardly what I commented on, in fact my comment on insolence preceded that if you'd pay attention.
Your cruel god, him and zeus or him and ra, a manuscript that others would argue is worthy, that sort of thing.. you appear smart try to employ that when choosing your words here!

best,

[جوري]

so there must be a starting point,

Do you believe life as we know it today has always existed? i.e humans in our shape or form billions of years ago?

best,

[Pygoscelis]

I only brought it up because I noticed you used it a few pages back and then used it again just now



Got me wondering if it was an actual thing that I didn't know about but thanks for clarifying.

lol! I didn't notice I was doing that. Maybe I have some subconscious desire to open a clothing store. "Infinite Redress" would be a great name for one eh?

[glo]

I feel the need to contribute something to this thread!

[Muhammad]

Greetings Pygoscelis,

This is a board where moderators have allowed people to wish death upon all atheists and call for the hunting down and killing of homosexuals with birds of prey.

In our FAQ, there is a disclaimer which reads:

Please remember that we are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of this Forum. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email or private message...
http://www.islamicboard.com/faq.php?..._liforum_rules

Whilst we do our best to remove posts that misrepresent the teachings of Islam, we cannot go through every single post. But when posts are reported, in almost all cases, some form of action will be taken. Now if particular posts have slipped through the net, it is completely untrue to say that moderators 'allowed' it or that they somehow reflect the views of the forum. To keep repeating this false notion is unacceptable and reflects a lack of integrity on your part. If I am not mistaken, you are referring to the former posts of one or two individuals out of the thousands that are registered here. If that is really the yardstick you will judge us by, this is no different to what is going on across the world where all Muslims are judged according to the actions of a few, and all the countless good examples ignored for one or two bad apples.

Now, let us please stick to the topic. Any further personal posts will be removed.

[Pygoscelis]

My point was that such things have been written here and the writers are still here, so it would be a double standard for me to be banned (as suggested by the person I was responding to) for anything I have written in this thread, none of which is anywhere near as offensive, or even meant as offensive at all.

That we non-muslims don't accept Islam's claims, that we see it as no different than other religions, that we see no more evidence for it than for other Gods, that we don't see the Quran as a perfectly written book or one inspired by the divine, is not said to insult. It is simple fact. If people take offence to that then they should not be asking about it in a thread with this thread's title in a comparative religion section of the forum.

I am enjoying the discussion we are having here. Interesting points and questions have been brought up. But to have such meaningful discussion on topics like this one requires those who don't believe to write their views as much as those who do believe.

[Muhammad]

I remember you made a similar statement in the past, which is why I wanted to clarify it, especially because of the chosen wording.

Perhaps I should also clarify that this thread was actually started in a different part of the forum. When non-Muslims began replying to it, I then moved it here.

[Pygoscelis]

Perhaps I should also clarify that this thread was actually started in a different part of the forum. When non-Muslims began replying to it, I then moved it here.

Didn't know that. I make a point of keeping out of fellowship sections of this board because I see those more as your online mosque, etc. This section and world affairs section I see more as your portal to the rest of society, so I post in those. :)

[GuestFellow]

I feel the need to contribute something to this thread!

How random.

The argument about the beginning of the universe is based on ignorance. We have no idea how the universe came about.

We don't know if there was "nothing" before the universe began, we don't know if nothing is possible, we don't know if "something can come from nothing". As we have never experienced or experimented on "nothing", we don't know if it is even possible or what its characteristics are.

Based on this state of affairs, theists use a logical structure for the existence of God on trying to avoid a logical impossibility

Summary:

1. can't have an infinite regression,
2. so there must be a starting point,
3. this starting point can not be based on the laws of nature, because "something can't come from nothing",
Conclusion: There must be an uncreated creator specifically named allah who doesn't want women to show their hair in public and people to pay interest.

Is this basically the argument?

Thanks.

Well all I'm trying to say is that in this universe there is a starting point and an end. This is because the world is not eternal. It is designed to start and come to an end hence the need for a creator.

However beyond this creation there is no starting point and end. Nothing came before God. It's eternal. So that is why I find it easy to accept that no one created God.

Besides the concept of beginning and end only applies to this universe. Beyond that we have no understanding of how things work. We have limited understanding of this.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

gator i didnt sense sincerity in your reply so im wary regarding you


i will never understand how someone can ever think that something can come from nothing. an uncreated creator is the only logical possibility. it is through the revelations that we have chosen to bring faith unto that lead to the rulings you snidely remarked upon which is a long story but not meant for those that cant even accept a creator.



i think ill take leave here, its impossible for a person to open their eyes when the hearts are sealed. the hearts can pnly open when wilfully submitted piously unto Allaah.

Ashhadu allaah ilaaha illallaahu wa ashhadu anna muhammadur rasoolullaah (pbuh)

there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger



Peace

[MustafaMc]

I want to share the first few ayah that I read tonight, { This is God, your Lord, there is no God but Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him; He is in charge of everything. No vision can take Him in, but He takes in all vision. He is the All Subtle, the All Aware. Now clear proof has come to you from your Lord: If anyone sees it, that will be to his advantage; if anyone is blind to it, that will be to his loss-[Say] 'I am not your guardian' .} 6:102-104 There will be no way to convince an unbeliever of Allah's existence when they do not see the obvious signs and proofs that believers see. If Allah had mercy on me to show me what I did not see before, then should I not be patient with others who do not as of yet see? If there was hope for me, then there is hope for others to see as well - if Allah so wills for that paradigm shift to occur for an unbeliever.

[GodIsAll]

I guess the atheists of those days were the ones suffering Parietal Lobe Damage? :D

best,

I think they actually had dain bramage.

Of course, atheists think believers lack a corpus callosum.

Sorry folks. I just find cerebrum humor to be good stuff.

[Abdul Rafay]

The Quran, with its numerous scientific allusions and accurate historical references with unparalelled beauty is proof of the Divine's existence

[observer]

The above shows that you are still in a frame of mind where you believe that in order for something to exist, you must be able to perceive/experience it with either one of your five senses

I don't think that's true. I believe in a lot of things that I can't see (subatomic particles for example). I think physics is a great example, take the Higgs Boson, we (well, someone much smarter than me!) studied the maths of physics and said that there must be this particle in existence according to the theory. If the particle didn't exist, the theory was wrong.

This is why I love science, it says "If we are correct, then we should see X. If we can't find X then we must be wrong, so let's take a look."

Science often gets accused of arrogance but there is no other field more ready to say "We are wrong, we have to think again".
So we looked at the maths, decided that we should try and find this particle to validate or invalidate the theory and now we've glimpsed it. But up until very recently, all belief in its existence was based on an interpretation of the maths, we hadn't "seen" anything.

[observer]

i mean why be any definition of good?

...especially if there is no reward.

Are you saying that you wouldn't be good if you didn't think you'd get a reward?

[observer]

One other quick thing, I also love the fact that scientific achievements are essentially neutral. We don't call a discovery an American/Chinese/French discovery for example. If you read a history of science it's all about achievements from around the globe leading to a furthering of knowledge. It truly is, or can be, a unifying force.

[GuestFellow]

It truly is, or can be, a unifying force.

It can kill people as well if you study the wars. :/

[observer]

It can kill people as well if you study the wars. :/

As can religion. Neither is perfect.

[GuestFellow]

As can religion. Neither is perfect.

Yes but science has killed more people in a short period of time and is more dangerous. :p:

[observer]

Yes but science has killed more people and is more dangerous.

Haha, touché. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point! After all, no one ever went to war to further the cause of atheism :)

[Pygoscelis]

Yes but science has killed more people in a short period of time and is more dangerous. :p:

This is one way that they work together. Science provides the means and religion provides the excuse.

[GuestFellow]

After all, no one ever went to war to further the cause of atheism :)

True but look at the extreme effects of atheism on North Korea. :p:

Scary!

[GuestFellow]

This is one way that they work together. Science provides the means and religion provides the excuse.

No that's called nationalism.

[observer]

True but look at the extreme effects of atheism on North Korea

They have a religious cult of the leader there - they have made gods of the ruling dynasty. When Kim Jong-Il died, "miracles" were seen. That's not atheism!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16297811

[GuestFellow]

They have a religious cult of the leader there - they have made gods of the ruling dynasty. When Kim Jong-Il died, "Miracles" were seen. That's not atheism!

But they don't believe in God? :/ It's a form of atheism. :p:

LOL that video is hilarious. Some of them are faking it.

[observer]

LOL that video is hilarious. Some of them are faking it.

I believe that not being sad enough was punishable by law. I would fake crying too in that situation!

[GuestFellow]

^ I would burst out laughing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jSP91XD2WE

^ Something like that happened to me during a sad moment.

[Ali Mujahidin]

LOL that video is hilarious. Some of them are faking it.

Do you mean faking the crying?

In that case, I think I have some idea why. I don't really know that much about the culture of the Koreans. However, I was told that the Korean culture is very similar to the Chinese culture. For the Chinese, to cry at a funeral is mandatory. Those who can afford it even pay for professional 'cryers', so to say, who would very realistically cry at funerals and the good 'cryers' can even lament the loss in songs, very sad-sounding songs, of course. So if the Koreans are similar to the Chinese with regards to funerals, faking crying at funerals is a very respectable, acceptable and expected thing to do.

[Gator]

gator i didnt sense sincerity in your reply so im wary regarding you

I am completely sincere in my post.

i will never understand how someone can ever think that something can come from nothing.

If nothing ever existed.

an uncreated creator is the only logical possibility.

This is where we part ways.

It is through the revelations that we have chosen to bring faith unto that lead to the rulings you snidely remarked upon which is a long story but not meant for those that cant even accept a creator.

I'm sorry, but I believe I was correct in the rulings unless I am mistaken. Nothing snide about being correct.

i think ill take leave here,

I think you should

its impossible for a person to open their eyes when the hearts are sealed.

I'm not the one spouting impossibilities.

the hearts can pnly open when wilfully submitted piously unto Allaah.

Or whatever happens to fit your creator equation.

end of transmission.

Thanks.

[Gator]

I feel the need to contribute something to this thread!

Love the nutty knitting!

PS - Did you google christopher Hedges?

[~Zaria~]

STORY -- ALLAH DOES EXIST

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects.
When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:

“I don’t believe that God exists.”

“Why do you say that?” asked the customer.

“Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn’t exist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can’t imagine a loving a God who would allow all of these things.”

The customer thought for a moment, but didn’t respond because he didn’t want to start an argument.

The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt.

The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber:“You know what? Barbers do not exist.”

“How can you say that?” asked the surprised barber. “I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!”

“No!” the customer exclaimed. “Barbers don’t exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.”

“Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens is people do not come to me.”

“Exactly!”- affirmed the customer.

“That’s the point! God, too, DOES exist! What happens, is, people don’t go to Him and do not look for him.

[glo]

Love the nutty knitting!

Gator, there isn't a stitch of knitting on that dress. I can see that from here.
Gee, and I thought you were a guy who KNEW stuff!

PS - Did you google christopher Hedges?

I have. I am quite interested to read "The World as It Is". Have you read it?

And then there is "I don't believe in Atheists".

[Pygoscelis]

STORY -- ALLAH DOES EXIST

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects.
When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:

“I don’t believe that God exists.”

“Why do you say that?” asked the customer.

“Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn’t exist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can’t imagine a loving a God who would allow all of these things.”

The customer thought for a moment, but didn’t respond because he didn’t want to start an argument.

The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt.

The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber:“You know what? Barbers do not exist.”

“How can you say that?” asked the surprised barber. “I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!”

“No!” the customer exclaimed. “Barbers don’t exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.”

“Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens is people do not come to me.”

“Exactly!”- affirmed the customer.

“That’s the point! God, too, DOES exist! What happens, is, people don’t go to Him and do not look for him.

So everybody who is suffering deserves it because they are not looking for God?

You really don't think that there are believers that suffer?

Are all these threads about Muslims being abused just a smokescreen then? Are these people really just pretend Muslims who don't actually go looking for God?

The big difference between your God and a barber is that your God is claimed to be all powerful and all knowing. So he knows about all the suffering, and can fix it all in an instant very easily. The barber dosen't know about all the unkempt, and doesn't have the time or resources to shave them all even if he did know about them all.

[جوري]

Suffering in the way you comically describe as a child unable to express himself but likes to throw tantrums just the same is created by mankind - your approach to life is funny, a strange sense of entitlement just for being as if all you've already isn't enough to pursue your own paradise or hell on this world impose it or deny it to others just the same!
Our suffering as Muslims is our trial and expiation a way for us to turn to God and punishment is to ensue for choosing life outside his grace. Those who've it best in this life truly aren't owed anything on the hereafter and most of them abuse it instead of balancing world economies they squander it on frivolity and yet desire for more and then blame it on God that there's suffering in the world!
We're provided for in this life and there's plenty to nourish all the senses.
All that's bad is from you all that's good is from God.
So enjoy your life would be my advise to you there's no point debating when each moment is precious and random! How unfortunate should you die with your last action some ill conceived remark about God try to go out with a bang in lieu of concrete philosophy as thought of by a school boy!

Best,

[Gator]

Ha! True, I was using the name of the site!

The World as it Is is very good.

As for I don't believe in Atheists, that's where he falls down of course.:D

[GuestFellow]

“That’s the point! God, too, DOES exist! What happens, is, people don’t go to Him and do not look for him.

I never would have thought you can bring a barber into this discussion.

Anyway I wouldn't say it is evidence of Allah's existence.

[~Zaria~]

So everybody who is suffering deserves it because they are not looking for God?

You really don't think that there are believers that suffer?

Are all these threads about Muslims being abused just a smokescreen then? Are these people really just pretend Muslims who don't actually go looking for God?

The big difference between your God and a barber is that your God is claimed to be all powerful and all knowing. So he knows about all the suffering, and can fix it all in an instant very easily. The barber dosen't know about all the unkempt, and doesn't have the time or resources to shave them all even if he did know about them all.

The parable used does not imply this at all.
(the reasons behind human suffering is another discussion in itself - which I trust that, from your time on this forum, you may already be aware of.)

Instead, the story is trying to provide an analogy to a common error in reasoning that is heard very often, to disprove Allahs existence.

[GuestFellow]

The parable used does not imply this at all.
(the reasons behind human suffering is another discussion in itself - which I trust that, from your time on this forum, you may already be aware of.)

Instead, the story is trying to provide an analogy to a common error in reasoning that is heard very often, to disprove Allahs existence.

Oh I get it now. Your post wasn't about trying to prove God's existence but more about addressing comments that are used to disprove God's existence. Nice analogy.

[MustafaMc]

Anyway I wouldn't say it is evidence of Allah's existence.

No, she was not using it as evidence for God's existence, but rather making the point that some people can't find evidence of God because they don't look for it. Though they have eyes, they are completely and utterly blind to the evidence that surrounds them. They deny these evidences of God's existence and do not see the absolute and undeniable miracle of life, life processes and species of life as evidence for an all powerful and sentient Creator. Those who reject faith, among all people, are to be pitied even while they look with disdain at those who believe in the unseen.

[جوري]

even while they look with disdain at those who believe in the unseen.

وَيَصْنَعُ الْفُلْكَ وَكُلَّمَا مَرَّ عَلَيْهِ مَلأٌ مِّن قَوْمِهِ سَخِرُواْ مِنْهُ قَالَ إِن تَسْخَرُواْ مِنَّا فَإِنَّا نَسْخَرُ مِنكُمْ كَمَا تَسْخَرُونَ

WayasnaAAu alfulka wakullama marra AAalayhi malaon min qawmihi sakhiroo minhu qala in taskharoo minna fainna naskharu minkum kama taskharoona

11:38 ---------------------------- Every time that the chiefs of his people passed by him, they threw ridicule on him. He said: "If ye ridicule us now, we (in our turn) can look down on you with ridicule likewise!

is all I can personally think of when they lay it on thick and believe they're being funny, and covering it with enough unctuousness so that it slips by many readers.

[Pygoscelis]

The parable used does not imply this at all.
(the reasons behind human suffering is another discussion in itself - which I trust that, from your time on this forum, you may already be aware of.)

Instead, the story is trying to provide an analogy to a common error in reasoning that is heard very often, to disprove Allahs existence.

It attempts to deal with the Problem of Evil. And it completely fails at doing so.

The barber has limited knowledge and limited power to change things. God is claimed to have limitless knowledge and limitless power to change things. The Barber in that story allows unkempt to exist because he doesn't know about them all and couldn't help them even if he did. This does not apply to God.

This analogy is one of the worst responses to the Problem of Evil that I have seen. The "need for free will" response is better, though still very flawed.

Also note that the Problem of Evil only addresses the claim of all good, all knowing, and all powerful Gods. If any of those three things are not claimed then the Problem of Evil doesn't apply.

[MustafaMc]

It attempts to deal with the Problem of Evil. And it completely fails at doing so.

No, the barber used that issue of evil as proof there is no all loving God and the other person used the unkempt person as a sarcastic point that his presence rather than showing a lack of existence of barbers instead that he did not look for a barber. The issue of the existence of evil as proof there is no God misses the point of our existence which is to worship God, to be charitable with others and to bear with patience what has been written for us. We sometimes expect this world to be an utopia or a garden of paradise from whence Adam and Eve were ejected. When our lives have pain and suffering some complain with "Why me?" and some see the suffering of others and complain "If there was a God, then He would not allow this." Our life on earth is merely a test and a trial. It is not an end in and of itself, but merely a passing milli-moment in time. After our death we can't come back to change how we lived or the choices we made. This life is a test, but the existence of God touches upon a related question and that is of our own existence and what is being tested. Does our existence begin at our conception and end with our death? What is our existence defined by - our bodies and physical appearance, our personality, our intellect and acquired knowledge, our beliefs or lack thereof, our accumulated good and bad deeds, our intentions and thoughts? The bottom line is who can definitively answer the question, "Who am I?" any better than, "Does God exist?"

[جوري]

misses the point of our existence which is to worship God,

Again, another verse springs to mind here:

Sahih International
And when it is said to them, "Spend from that which Allah has provided for you," those who disbelieve say to those who believe, "Should we feed one whom, if Allah had willed, He would have fed? You are not but in clear error."

[Insaanah]

The issue of the existence of evil as proof there is no God misses the point of our existence which is to worship God

A very good point akhi.

Humans have been given free will. Guidance has been given to us on how best to use it.

If only sweetness and light prevailed in the world, they would then say, why are we controlled to such an extent that no evil or no bad is allowed? When evil is allowed as per man's own doing, then they say, why is evil allowed? Almost analagous to the verse sister العنود has posted. My fear is that they will reach their graves circling within such a never ending conundrum.

[Ahmad H]

If only sweetness and light prevailed in the world, they would then say, why are we controlled to such an extent that no evil or no bad is allowed? When evil is allowed as per man's own doing, then they say, why is evil allowed? Almost analagous to the verse sister العنود has posted. My fear is that they will reach their graves circling within such a never ending conundrum.

My thoughts exactly.

[Pygoscelis]

The issue of the existence of evil as proof there is no God misses the point of our existence which is to worship God, to be charitable with others and to bear with patience what has been written for us.

That has nothing to do with the using evil for or against the existence of God. That assumes God exists and declares our purpose is to serve him, etc. That has nothing to do with the story or analogy.

Our life on earth is merely a test and a trial.

So you say. I see no reason to agree. I don't want to treat this life, probably my only life, as a testing ground or waiting room for something that may or may not come later. Ill treat others well because I have empathy for them and want to live in a world where people treat each other well. I don't need to gear my life towards pleasing an authority figure, and especially not one that I have no reason to think exists.

It is not an end in and of itself, but merely a passing milli-moment in time.

People who suffer, starve, are tortured, are afflicted with disease, etc, don't see it as a mere milli-moment. Their suffering is real and often long drawn out.

[Pygoscelis]

Humans have been given free will. Guidance has been given to us on how best to use it.

If only sweetness and light prevailed in the world, they would then say, why are we controlled to such an extent that no evil or no bad is allowed? When evil is allowed as per man's own doing, then they say, why is evil allowed? Almost analagous to the verse sister العنود has posted. My fear is that they will reach their graves circling within such a never ending conundrum

That is a much better argument than the one in the story. It is the "Free Will" argument I was referring to above. It is coherent and logical.

But it doesn't account for suffering caused by disease, natural disasters, etc. Not all suffering is caused by human choices.

[جوري]

actually it is all explained in Islam:
'Abdullah ibn 'Umar said, "The Prophet, peace be upon him, came to us and said, 'O Muhajirun, (emigrants from Makkah to al-Madinah) you may be afflicted by five things; God forbid that you should live to see them. If fornication should become widespread, you should realise that this has never happened without new diseases befalling the people which their forebears never suffered. If people should begin to cheat in weighing out goods, you should realise that this has never happened without drought and famine befalling the people, and their rulers oppressing them. If people should withhold zakat, you should realise that this has never happened without the rain being stopped from falling; and were it not for the animals' sake, it would never rain again. If people should break their covenant with Allah and His Messenger, you should realise that his has never happened without Allah sending an enemy against them to take some of their possessions by force. If the leaders do not govern according to the Book of Allah, you should realise that this has never happened without Allah making them into groups and making them fight one another.' " [Ibn Majah]

as well:

وَاتَّقُوا فِتْنَةً لَا تُصِيبَنَّ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْكُمْ خَاصَّةً ۖ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ {25}
[Pickthal 8:25] And guard yourselves against a chastisement which cannot fall exclusively on those of you who are wrong-doers, and know that Allah is severe in punishment.

Also it is a matter of struggle, and learning, and overcoming, and helping.. what theme per atheists should life be designed around? a paradisaical one?

[MustafaMc]

People who suffer, starve, are tortured, are afflicted with disease, etc, don't see it as a mere milli-moment. Their suffering is real and often long drawn out.

What you wrote reminded me of this hadith, {Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said that one amongst the denizens of Hell who had led a life of ease and plenty amongst the people of the world would be made to dip in Fire only once on the Day of Resurrection and then it would be said to him: O, son of Adam, did you find any comfort, did you happen to get any material blessing? He would say: By Allah, no, my Lord. And then that person from amongst the persons of the world be brought who had led the most miserable life (in the world) from amongst the inhabitants of Paradise and he would be made to dip once in Paradise and it would be said to him. 0, son of Adam, did you face, any hardship? Or had any distress fallen to your lot? And he would say: By Allah, no, 0 my Lord, never did I face any hardship or experience any distress.}

[Pygoscelis]

And guard yourselves against a chastisement which cannot fall exclusively on those of you who are wrong-doers, and know that Allah is severe in punishment.

This is a step beyond vicarious sacrifice and redemption as practiced by the Christians. This is straight into vicarious punishment. I am to be punished with natural disasters for something you did? Something I had no knowledge of you doing? Something I had no power to stop you from doing? God has no power to punish each of us in proportion to our wrongdoing? Or does he just have no interest in doing so? Can you see the fundamental injustice here?

Also it is a matter of struggle, and learning, and overcoming, and helping.. what theme per atheists should life be designed around? a paradisaical one?

Basic empathy is a start. I know it isn't really enough to fix the world, and it probably never will be, but at least it isn't all about causing people suffering because others didn't pick the right God or do the right ritual or say the right magic words.

[جوري]

This is a step beyond vicarious sacrifice and redemption as practiced by the Christians. This is straight into vicarious punishment. I am to be punished with natural disasters for something you did? Something I had no knowledge of you doing? Something I had no power to stop you from doing? God has no power to punish each of us in proportion to our wrongdoing? Or does he just have no interest in doing so? Can you see the fundamental injustice here?

I see it as very natural. The same way if a part of your body is aching the rest of your body aches too. When you've a migraine you don't think oh well my feet feel great. We are one human family and whomever does something wrong it affects the rest. If you want to fix the whole you've to fix the part and that's mainly our concern with the rest of humanity and why they need to walk aright and straight. This however doesn't affect rewards & punishment in the hereafter, then everyone is responsible for their own deeds. But don't lie to yourself, if you work in a place and one member isn't pulling their weight isn't everyone else affected too?

Al-Anbiya (The Prophets)[21:23]

[RECITE]

[top] [next match]

La yusalu AAamma yafAAalu wahum yusaloona

21:23 He cannot be questioned for His acts, but they will be questioned (for theirs).

[Pygoscelis]

What you wrote reminded me of this hadith, {Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said that one amongst the denizens of Hell who had led a life of ease and plenty amongst the people of the world would be made to dip in Fire only once on the Day of Resurrection and then it would be said to him: O, son of Adam, did you find any comfort, did you happen to get any material blessing? He would say: By Allah, no, my Lord. And then that person from amongst the persons of the world be brought who had led the most miserable life (in the world) from amongst the inhabitants of Paradise and he would be made to dip once in Paradise and it would be said to him. 0, son of Adam, did you face, any hardship? Or had any distress fallen to your lot? And he would say: By Allah, no, 0 my Lord, never did I face any hardship or experience any distress.}

Can you put that in your own words? The problem with quoting holy books is that they make little sense to those not steeped in that particular religion.

[MustafaMc]

This is straight into vicarious punishment. I am to be punished with natural disasters for something you did?

No, it is not about vicarious punishment. Another translation reads, {And fear the Fitnah (affliction and trial) which affects not in particular (only) those of you who do wrong (but it may afflict all the good and the bad people), and know that Allah is Severe in punishment.} and a third reads, {Beware of discord that harms not only the wrongdoers among you: know that God is severe in His punishment.} I understand the first part to refer to this life and the second part to the Hereafter. The Arabic word fitna means more than chastisement depending on the context.

[MustafaMc]

Can you put that in your own words? The problem with quoting holy books is that they make little sense to those not steeped in that particular religion.

The hadith means that the punishment of Hell is so extremely severe that those who enjoyed the life of this world to the fullest extent by worldly standards of luxury, ease and plenty yet who are sentenced to punishment in the Hereafter will entirely forget the joys of this life and it will seem as mere folly and but a distant dream. In contrast the pleasures and joys of Paradise will be so unimaginably great that whatever suffering a person endured during this life again will seem infinitesimally minor in a relative sense. This gets back to the notion of any number divided by infinity in all practical respects is zero.

[Pygoscelis]

The hadith means that the punishment of Hell is so extremely severe that those who enjoyed the life of this world to the fullest extent by worldly standards of luxury, ease and plenty yet who are sentenced to punishment in the Hereafter will entirely forget the joys of this life and it will seem as mere folly and but a distant dream. In contrast the pleasures and joys of Paradise will be so unimaginably great that whatever suffering a person endured during this life again will seem infinitesimally minor in a relative sense.

So its just saying heaven and hell are the ultimate carrot and stick? No surprse there. They threaten you and bribe you to get you to obey.

This gets back to the notion of any number divided by infinity in all practical respects is zero.

So your response to the great suffering that people to through in life, and God allowing it to happen (or causing it to), is that they will suffer much much more later (if they are non-muslim or bad muslims) or have a much better time later (if they are good muslims)? This shows a complete lack of empathy for the here and now. Disease, famine, etc are real (whereas the afterlife may or may not be) and worth caring about. They are not "in all practical respects zero".

[Pygoscelis]

While we are talking about the Problem of Evil, we should mention the suffering of non-human animals too. How do you explain a loving, all powerful, all knowing God creating carnivores? These are animals that can only survive by inflicting pain and death on others. God couldn't have designed a system of life without that? He didn't want to?

[M.I.A.]

While we are talking about the Problem of Evil, we should mention the suffering of non-human animals too. How do you explain a loving, all powerful, all knowing God creating carnivores? These are animals that can only survive by inflicting pain and death on others. God couldn't have designed a system of life without that? He didn't want to?

to be quite fair, an animal is an animal. cows act like cows and tigers act like tigers.

take them out of the wild and you could probably put your head in a tigers mouth.


put people into the wild and its like lord of the flies.


men would easily take the words of your tongue to get a step up.


i cant really explain why god would put anything through this place. all i know is that people are more than flesh and bone.

life is just a test of character. and a few more verses of the quran let you know it aswell.. unfortunately its better if you read it yourself.

[جوري]

While we are talking about the Problem of Evil, we should mention the suffering of non-human animals too. How do you explain a loving, all powerful, all knowing God creating carnivores? These are animals that can only survive by inflicting pain and death on others. God couldn't have designed a system of life without that? He didn't want to?

As we already keep reiterating Islam is a complete religion & everything is discussed and covered:

In fact per previous post, where I quoted the hadith, sometimes it rains on a terrible people just for the sake of animals not humans.

“There is no creature moving on the earth, nor a bird flying on its two wings, but they are all communities like you. We have not missed anything in the Book. Then, to their Lord all of them shall be gathered.” (Qurʾan 6:38)

“Allah will resurrect all the creation on the day of rising; animals, birds, cattle and everything. The justice of Allah will prevail even in favour of the hornless animal against the horned animal. Allah will then instruct, "Become dust". This is the very matter that is referred to in the words of Allah; “… the disbeliever will say [when they shall see animals being turned into soil], “O would that I had turned into dust - Qurʾan 78:40” (Musannaf Abd al Razzaq)

[Pygoscelis]

In fact per previous post, where I quoted the hadith, sometimes it rains on a terrible people just for the sake of animals not humans.

That doesn't have anything to do with God creating carnivores, who can only exist by inflicting pain and death on others.

“There is no creature moving on the earth, nor a bird flying on its two wings, but they are all communities like you. We have not missed anything in the Book. Then, to their Lord all of them shall be gathered.” (Qurʾan 6:38)

That doesn't either.

“Allah will resurrect all the creation on the day of rising; animals, birds, cattle and everything. The justice of Allah will prevail even in favour of the hornless animal against the horned animal. Allah will then instruct, "Become dust". This is the very matter that is referred to in the words of Allah; “… the disbeliever will say [when they shall see animals being turned into soil], “O would that I had turned into dust - Qurʾan 78:40” (Musannaf Abd al Razzaq)

Nor does that. Its just another restatement of the threat against disbelievers, probably meant to push believers to convert their loved ones or to not question their own belief.

[جوري]

That doesn't have anything to do with God creating carnivores, who can only exist by inflicting pain and death on others.

Unfortunately you don't know enough about pain or animals. In fact ALL animals hunt in the exact same way, which causes endorphin release which acts as an instant sedative during the time of death.. this can also be simulated in the halal way of slaughter. So they feel nothing.
Many other creatures which aren't killed in this way say 'lobsters' have very poorly developed pain centers.

lastly, I think I mentioned a thousand times over that it doesn't aggrieve me if you worship a cockroach or the mighty dollar, it adds nothing and subtracts nothing from my life.

best,

[White Rose]

While we are talking about the Problem of Evil, we should mention the suffering of non-human animals too. How do you explain a loving, all powerful, all knowing God creating carnivores? These are animals that can only survive by inflicting pain and death on others. God couldn't have designed a system of life without that? He didn't want to?

I dont understand what a peaceful and loving God have to do with cycle of life? There are things that are done for a purpose and if we knew the purpose, then I suppose we wouldnt be living on this planet would we? I just dont see why everything negative is associated with God.

[Pygoscelis]

Unfortunately you don't know enough about pain or animals. In fact ALL animals hunt in the exact same way, which causes endorphin release which acts as an instant sedative during the time of death..

Not all attacks on prey result in the prey dying painlessly.

Not all attacks on prey result in the prey dying at all. Often the prey will escape, maimed or slowly dying of venom or other after effects.

If you are attacked by a lion or a shark, I doubt you will consider it a pleasant experience.

The Lion and Shark have no other means of survival.

Why did God set it up this way? How can a theist look at this and not see a cruel or indifferent God?


Some links:

http://listverse.com/2010/07/05/10-t...-by-an-animal/

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/ani...es/gila-monste

What insects to do animals is even more terrifying. This does not indicate a loving God to me.

[White Rose]

Why did God set it up this way? How can a theist look at this and not see a cruel or indifferent God?

Simple, by not trying to justify every single thing that we have no knowledge of.

[جوري]

Not all attacks on prey result in the prey dying painlessly.

You know this because you're there at the moment of death measuring with your pain o meter?
This is the cycle of life, and it is life in this world. On them we ride, we use their hide, we use their meat and generally :Allah::swt: gave us dominion over them not for abuse but for use. In that they fulfill their purpose in this life. Each creation fulfills its purpose in the way it is assigned and designed and death is very much a part of this existence. It is the end of the life of this world but not an end to the soul.

If I died by a lion or a shark I'd be automatically a martyr. =)

best,

[GodIsAll]

Dang it!

Now all I can think about is that there may be creepy cockroach cults.

I need to go read a book or something. Anything but entomology, though.

[Pygoscelis]

Simple, by not trying to justify every single thing that we have no knowledge of.

He's claimed to be both all good and all powerful, and yet he created some of the most horrible and terrifying things imaginable, and allows famine and natural disasters to kill good people very painfully. That is a contradiction on the face of it. You have no rational and coherent explanation for this contradiction. I do. This God is either limited in power, limited in benevolence, or doesn't exist.

[جوري]

and yet he created some of the most horrible and terrifying things imaginable

Who said it is horrible and unimaginable? You? Yours isn't the compass by which we measure horrible or terrifying. It is actually quite beautiful and remarkable. I am subscribed to a site entitled ''Go ahead bug me'' and I am so in awe of the intricacies and amazing abilities of those tiny creatures and it is beyond the scope of this page to discuss their benefits to life to the eco system not to mention their abilities and life cycle.

Your entire way of thinking is quite amusing..
Also you insist on confusing the self-immolating god of christianity with what we know of his attributes. There's a balance in the world and only the transgressors tip the scale in the wrong direction. But there's always a balance of both in everything, in the seasons in our bodies, in nature. You can't have one without the other. You wouldn't even be able to contrast good or evil, night and day, winter and summer if you didn't always have the two opposing forces. Then what will your idea of good or bad be?

best,

[White Rose]

He's claimed to be both all good and all powerful, and yet he created some of the most horrible and terrifying things imaginable, and allows famine and natural disasters to kill good people very painfully. That is a contradiction on the face of it. You have no rational and coherent explanation for this contradiction. I do. This God is either limited in power, limited in benevolence, or doesn't exist.

And of course the humans have no fault! Such pure creatures! Nothing that they would do would result in their demise.
I think before we blame God of errors, let us look at ourselves first. Are we doing what we are told to do? Are we fulfilling our covenant? Why do we expect help when we are not doing anything ourselves?
On the other hand, what you presented is a cycle of life, and it indeed seems cruel to those who don't believe in God.

[Insaanah]

People would deny belief in God because a lion in a jungle somewhere had deer for dinner last night? :?

[M.I.A.]

He's claimed to be both all good and all powerful, and yet he created some of the most horrible and terrifying things imaginable, and allows famine and natural disasters to kill good people very painfully. That is a contradiction on the face of it. You have no rational and coherent explanation for this contradiction. I do. This God is either limited in power, limited in benevolence, or doesn't exist.

so what your saying is why there is any death in the first place?

why things need to eat and drink to survive?

and why the environment changes to such extents that it does not favor the people that live in it.


well it literally is up to god.

but the people dont help themselves.

the funny thing is you could live in a cold damp place for most the year and people still complain when the suns shining.. its a crazy world.


famine is mismanagement at its greatest imo and thats nothing but an end product.


basically the bottom line is that people have a tendency to shoot themselves in the foot... god does not change the world for people often.

god does not create evil, people are led to do it.


i mean people live in a place called tornado alley.. in wooden houses.

i dont want them to move, but maybe they should build earthquake resistant housing. (thats about as funny as im getting)



life is like driving a car really, i dont want to crash.

i dont like bad driving habits.

i indicate and i wear a seatbelt.


i think if people had a fear of god rather than a haphazardly way of hoping for allah swt to save them then things may be different.

...the fact that most people dont crash is proof of god in itself really.


the fact that people return and rebuild there homes in tornado alley.. is either arrogance or determination.

its literally the question of is the world as its meant to be.. or do people need to change.


the proof of god is literally the way the world still turns with all the horrible mess thats on it. we are not here for a long stay really. (everything dies apparently)

if it matters what you leave behind or not is something im not aware of.


i guess thats why you have animal activists, nature reserves, eco activists.

politicians, doctors, mechanics and people in all walks of life and dedicated to the things they care about.

...and driving instructors.


what they are able to achieve is anyones guess. i guess if god needs em then they get more lucky than others.

and allah swt needs nobody.

[Pygoscelis]

so what your saying is why there is any death in the first place?

why things need to eat and drink to survive?

and why the environment changes to such extents that it does not favor the people that live in it.

More than just that. Look at the links I provided i the previous post. And consider that we have animals on earth that eat each other alive from the inside out, crush them slowly, paralyze them and slowly eat their limbs, catch bugs in webs to be held there helplessly for a long period of time until they are eaten, etc. These animals are often acting on mere instinct, and even when they are not, they have no other means to eat and survive.

Not to mention disease and natural disaster that people had no way of avoiding. I agree it is a bit of a different case when people live in tornado valley in wooden houses, etc, but these things are not always that predictable. People die for no good reason as a result of nature pretty often. This doesn't even address what horrible things people do to each other.

well it literally is up to god.

Yes. If we claim that an all powerful God exists then that logically infers that this purported God wants it this way. And if we claim a creator designed all of these ghastly things then I have to conclude such a creator would have to be sadistic and cruel, not kind and loving. And yes, that is my judgment, and yes it is my place to judge any purported concept of God that others may put forth, just as they themselves judge their concepts of God, usually as good and just and worthy of worship, etc.

god does not create evil, people are led to do it.

If God created everything then God created evil.

...the fact that most people dont crash is proof of god in itself really.

How do you figure that? I don't see that at all.

the fact that people return and rebuild there homes in tornado alley.. is either arrogance or determination.

Probably both, and stupidity too. :)

[Insaanah]

More than just that. Look at the links I provided i the previous post. And consider that we have animals on earth that eat each other alive from the inside out, crush them slowly, paralyze them and slowly eat their limbs, catch bugs in webs to be held there helplessly for a long period of time until they are eaten, etc. These animals are often acting on mere instinct, and even when they are not, they have no other means to eat and survive.

You're trying to apply human thinking, and a human way of life, to something that is not human. The same way that you're trying to apply your thoughts within our limited human capacity, to an unlimited being. You could spend your whole life thinking like this, puzzling over these endless self-created conundrums until death comes.

Some animals are resources for us:

And the cattle, He has created them for you; in them there is warmth (warm clothing), and numerous benefits, and of them you eat. (16:5)

And of the cattle (He produces) some for carrying burdens, some for food. Eat of that which Allah hath bestowed upon you, and follow not the footsteps of the devil, for he is an open foe to you. (6:142)

And indeed, for you in livestock is a lesson. We give you drink from that which is in their bellies, and for you in them are numerous benefits, and from them you eat. (23:21)

Similarly, some animals are resources for each other. They have a life cycle and way of life, and threats to them, that are different from our way of life and the threats we face.

We slaughter animals for meat as per the capacity God has granted us - they don't have such capabilities, so get their food by chasing and hunting. To say they shouldn't do that, is to deny their nature. It's to say an animal shouldn't act as an animal.

To expect that if there is a God then no one should even fall down and if they do a feather down pillow should magically appear to cushion their fall, and if it doesn't how cruel is that, is to be unrealistic. It's demanding a magic world where everything is perfect according to how your personal reasoning expects perfect to be.

You talk about suffering and how cruel it is. Yet if you go and see some people enduring what we'd perceive to be extreme suffering, and you ask them how they are, they praise God and give thanks to Him. That is truly humbling. While we sit here whinging why why why, how cruel and what kind of God is that, they thank God, and look to those below them.

Abu Hurairah narrated that the Messenger of Allah (peace and salutations of Allah be upon him) said:
“Look at those who are beneath you and do not look at those who are above you, lest you belittle the favors Allah conferred upon you.”
Sunan Ibn Majah (sahih) English reference : Vol. 1, Book 37, Hadith 4142
Arabic reference : Book 37, Hadith 4281

As humans, we have good times and bad times, like we have day and night, light and dark, hot and cold.

...Such days (of varying fortunes, good and not so good) We give to men and men by turns... (3:140, part)

Absence of affliction shouldn't be perceived as being a good thing. There are times of trials when mankind rallies together, people open their hearts and pockets and spirits, to a people previously fine but now affected by say, an earthquake. Those people in turn would have previously given to others suffering elsewhere.

For us to demand that God justifies to us every single thing that happens, and that we ought to be able to understand it and agree with it before He carries it out, is not correct. When you look down at earth from outer space, we are not even mere specks, not even as comparatively big as ants. And if we think we know best, this verse is worth pondering over:

... over every person endowed with knowledge is the All-Knowing. (12:76, part)

Peace.

[جوري]

He also doesn't seem to have a concept of free will given his repeated:

If God created everything then God created evil.

Really gets tiresome after a while..
If there was no free will then they'd find something else to be pissed about..
It is like when you assign a number to a particular procedure say scrubbing and there's always the buffoon that says why not four or why not six just because five isn't to his liking and for some completely random reason not a seasoned thought..
If you don't want to play the game don't just don't bug the heck out of everyone with you!

:w:

[Pygoscelis]

We slaughter animals for meat as per the capacity God has granted us - they don't have such capabilities, so get their food by chasing and hunting. To say they shouldn't do that, is to deny their nature. It's to say an animal shouldn't act as an animal.

I didn't say these animals shouldn't do these things. In fact I said that they have no choice but to do these things. I am not judging the mindset and morality of these animals. I am judging the mindset and morality of anybody who would wish such a situation to exist and actually create it into being. And I am judging the mindset and morality of anybody who would consider such a creator good and just and fit to worship.

To expect that if there is a God then no one should even fall down and if they do a feather down pillow should magically appear to cushion their fall, and if it doesn't how cruel is that, is to be unrealistic.

I would agree that would be unreasonable. But that isn't even remotely what I said.

[Pygoscelis]

If you are all knowing, and you give your creation free will, then you are doing so knowing that evil will result from this free will. You are therefore creating this evil.

[جوري]

When you sit for an exam if you study hard & are sincere in the pursuit of knowledge you'll pass, if you cheat you'll be punished and if you slack off you'll fail..
what's your point that the teacher is responsible for your behavior and the route you choose to fulfill your course?

best,

[M.I.A.]

More than just that. Look at the links I provided i the previous post. And consider that we have animals on earth that eat each other alive from the inside out, crush them slowly, paralyze them and slowly eat their limbs, catch bugs in webs to be held there helplessly for a long period of time until they are eaten, etc. These animals are often acting on mere instinct, and even when they are not, they have no other means to eat and survive.

Not to mention disease and natural disaster that people had no way of avoiding. I agree it is a bit of a different case when people live in tornado valley in wooden houses, etc, but these things are not always that predictable. People die for no good reason as a result of nature pretty often. This doesn't even address what horrible things people do to each other.



Yes. If we claim that an all powerful God exists then that logically infers that this purported God wants it this way. And if we claim a creator designed all of these ghastly things then I have to conclude such a creator would have to be sadistic and cruel, not kind and loving. And yes, that is my judgment, and yes it is my place to judge any purported concept of God that others may put forth, just as they themselves judge their concepts of God, usually as good and just and worthy of worship, etc.



If God created everything then God created evil.



How do you figure that? I don't see that at all.



Probably both, and stupidity too. :)

well at the risk of writing myself into a corner, those animals and insects have very specific roles in the world.

..not really a miracle of evolution to narrow them down to such specificity in the food chain.

thats what they were made for?

..but i guess theres is a smaller world than that of humans.

who are able to move freely and eat pretty much whatevers around.

they are different because they have reasoning and a lot more besides.


i mean for instance if i were talking to a person and i reasoned that i was in fact unreasonable towards him. i would have to ask myself why?

iv met people that do the verbal equivalent of slapping everyone in the face.. nothing can be done about it.. because lets face it, what do they have to gain by changing?

the disease state is one that can be encouraged or repressed. its like a recession that happens overnight..

it does not happen overnight.


the crux of the question is if there is any difference between humans and animals, because the behavior of one cannot be used to justify the behavior of the other.

i mean iv heard of a dog eat dog world but i guess thats why im not getting anywhere.

others are more hungry imo.

..and thats why things keep going forward.


insolence and competition.


and people do not die for no reason at all, people die because it is the natural order of things.. i have no idea how to keep other people alive except to not kill them!

How do you figure that? I don't see that at all.

well iv been driving for only about 12 years now, as long as i dont think things are difficult they are not.

when i look at how complicated things really are, then i understand.

...but then again i passed on my fifth attempt and took more lessons than a reasonable person would have been able to afford.

so i have to think about it a little more.


the creator is not sadistic or cruel, people are.

i mean one mans hero is anothers villain.


its just a case of perception.


there is a god though and there is no compulsion in religion either.


people are not created good or evil.

..or maybe they are.

...well i went for a job interview once that lasted three years of voluntary work and then a few months paid work... fizzling out with me leaving and leaving behind a weeks wage also.

...someone i knew went in and was offered a job on the spot near enough.


something to think about really.


iv seen and heard a lot of things, none that i would take as god.. like yourself.

although i know that islam and the quran are true.

[GuestFellow]

If you are all knowing, and you give your creation free will, then you are doing so knowing that evil will result from this free will. You are therefore creating this evil.

To respond to your post it depends on how you view creation. I think God allows us to do whatever we want. He's not controlling us, but may provide guidance to those that want help or ask for it. Yes he will know the outcome but it's not him that is actually doing the bad deed. It's the people that commit sins and they should be responsible.

[Pygoscelis]

When you sit for an exam if you study hard & are sincere in the pursuit of knowledge you'll pass, if you cheat you'll be punished and if you slack off you'll fail..
what's your point that the teacher is responsible for your behavior and the route you choose to fulfill your course?

best,

Teachers are not omnipotent.

Teachers are not all knowing.

Teachers did not create the students.

How does this analogy apply exactly?

[Pygoscelis]

To respond to your post it depends on how you view creation. I think God allows us to do whatever we want. He's not controlling us, but may provide guidance to those that want help or ask for it. Yes he will know the outcome but it's not him that is actually doing the bad deed. It's the people that commit sins and they should be responsible.

Both should be held responsible. If I purposefully lock you in a room with a man whose made it his life mission to kill you, and give him a loaded pistol, it is still his free will to kill you, and he should be held responsible for the grisly act. But I should also be responsible. And in this case I did not create him into being as God is claimed to have done, so God's case is even more culpable.

[جوري]

Teachers are not omnipotent.

Teachers are not all knowing.

Teachers did not create the students.

How does this analogy apply exactly?

In fact you bring everything down to the lowest common denominator to fit your lilliputian thought process as it comes to the being of God. As I stated you're unhappy with whatever analogy because you create the scenario and request that we conform to it and then your responses are modulated from there.
I am glad though if for nothing else why it is we categorically refuse secularism and man made laws as a way of life. If we go by the whims of every atheist or every Janist or every Zoroastrian we will get no where!

best,

[M.I.A.]

Both should be held responsible. If I purposefully lock you in a room with a man whose made it his life mission to kill you, and give him a loaded pistol, it is still his free will to kill you, and he should be held responsible for the grisly act. But I should also be responsible. And in this case I did not create him into being as God is claimed to have done, so God's case is even more culpable.

so who has more authority in the room?

its not just a case of killing and being killed is it.

its freedom.

under the threat of death.


...put it into the real world context and that analogy is rather relevant.

although i would condemn violence as a universal educator.

[GuestFellow]

Both should be held responsible. If I purposefully lock you in a room with a man whose made it his life mission to kill you, and give him a loaded pistol, it is still his free will to kill you, and he should be held responsible for the grisly act. But I should also be responsible. And in this case I did not create him into being as God is claimed to have done, so God's case is even more culpable.

Does that not sound like conspiracy to murder to lock me into a room? How would God be responsible for this exactly?

You need to understand God does not tell us how to behave. We make our own choices, but he knows the outcome before we do.

[Pygoscelis]

Does that not sound like conspiracy to murder to lock me into a room? How would God be responsible for this exactly?

You need to understand God does not tell us how to behave. We make our own choices, but he knows the outcome before we do.

In the analogy I gave I do not tell the killer how to behave either. I simply put you in the same room, allow him the tools to do it, and don't stop him from doing it. I have a good idea what he's going to do, but unlike God I don't for sure know it. I think I should be held responsible for exposing you to this risk, and I think God should be even more responsible since in his case it isn't just a risk but a certainty. In his case it is little different than doing it himself. In fact it is exactly doing it himself, since he created everything involved and knew how it would turn out while he was creating it.

And as I said above, the free will argument does get us around natural disasters, disease, etc. There is a lot of suffering in the world that isn't caused by us humans.

[جوري]

d I think God should be even more responsible

You think wrong and God doesn't work in accordance with your thought processes!

best,

[Pygoscelis]

You're right that your God doesn't work in accordance with my thought processes, but your God is one of your thought processes, and we should judge accordingly.

[جوري]

You're right that your God doesn't work in accordance with my thought processes, but your God is one of your thought processes, and I judge accordingly.

I don't pretend to know About :Allah::swt: more than what he choose to reveal of his attributes. I don't however, hover around your strata of thoughts at all whether it comes to God or anything else. It just seems under developed and rather puerile to me and I suspect most people!

best,

[Insaanah]

Which takes me back to my point again, you're thinking how an animal should behave, from a human point of view. Animals might not view it that way, and may view it as an accepted part and parcel of life, and something they know could happen to them, but it may be a way of life that they like, and they might not have it any other way. But you think (thinking from a humans point of view) that it's cruel that a lion should chase after a deer, and that this poor deer is frightened and has to run for it's life, and that an animal should have such instincts. Therefore according to you, the Creator of such a "travesty" must be cruel, sadistic, and morbid, and He got it all wrong.

We would see the diversity in the world, the different ways of life amongst the animal communities, their interconnections, including what we don't fully understand, as signs of an All-Wise Creator. Animals have not been created humans. As animals are resources for us, some are resources for each other. They cannot very well keep farms and slaughter in the human way. They also have a way, which is different to ours, even if we don't understand it or it doesn't sit well with us. As we eat certain animals, so do some of them. They don't hunt for amusement, but to eat.

How they appear to behave naturally with each other in their habitats should not be a cause to reject belief in the existence of the Creator. These animals aren't even aware that someone is jeopardising their belief because of them.

There are things in the world that may not sit well with us, or we don't understand. That does not imply absence of the Creator, or that the Creator is cruel. God is not a thought process, but a reality, that existed before we did, and will still exist after we die. We are the ones, that have a fleeting existence, and indeed once we as individuals did not even exist - we were nothings, nobodies:

Has there not been over Man a long period of Time, when he was nothing - (not even) mentioned? (76:1)

[M.I.A.]

In the analogy I gave I do not tell the killer how to behave either. I simply put you in the same room, allow him the tools to do it, and don't stop him from doing it. I have a good idea what he's going to do, but unlike God I don't for sure know it. I think I should be held responsible for exposing you to this risk, and I think God should be even more responsible since in his case it isn't just a risk but a certainty. In his case it is little different than doing it himself. In fact it is exactly doing it himself, since he created everything involved and knew how it would turn out while he was creating it.

And as I said above, the free will argument does get us around natural disasters, disease, etc. There is a lot of suffering in the world that isn't caused by us humans.

i think that the only argument here is that you dont factor into account a life after death.

because that would change things.


unfortunately i dont have proof of any life after death.

its either there is one god or.... there can only be one.

its two differing ideologies... i think.



at that point its probably on the other people in the room what they want to happen.


splitting of sea's and such like happen less often than one would think.

[Pygoscelis]

How does life after death really change things though?

You could consider this life a testing ground, but it would still be a pretty cruel testing ground (especially to animals if it is humans who are being tested). And if God is all knowing then he already knows who will pass and who will fail his test as he is creating both the test and those who will take the test. It makes taking the rather pointless, and creating those he knows will fail the test rather cruel.

[GuestFellow]

In the analogy I gave I do not tell the killer how to behave either. I simply put you in the same room, allow him the tools to do it, and don't stop him from doing it. I have a good idea what he's going to do, but unlike God I don't for sure know it. I think I should be held responsible for exposing you to this risk, and I think God should be even more responsible since in his case it isn't just a risk but a certainty. In his case it is little different than doing it himself. In fact it is exactly doing it himself, since he created everything involved and knew how it would turn out while he was creating it.

And as I said above, the free will argument does get us around natural disasters, disease, etc. There is a lot of suffering in the world that isn't caused by us humans.

Again God would not be responsible because he was not involved in committing the act. Yes he created those that do it but they have been given a choice. I'm aware he knows the outcome but he is not going to get involved. We as people have a responsibility to take care of each other and this world. If God kept on getting involved how are we supposed to learn?

The reason we have natural disasters and diseases is because it is part of life and it actually brings us closer to a certain extent.

[M.I.A.]

How does life after death really change things though?

You could consider this life a testing ground, but it would still be a pretty cruel testing ground (especially to animals if it is humans who are being tested). And if God is all knowing then he already knows who will pass and who will fail his test as he is creating both the test and those who will take the test. It makes taking the rather pointless, and creating those he knows will fail the test rather cruel.

it is a cruel testing ground. full stop.

i mean iv failed at pretty much everything.

...so take my words with a pinch of salt.


but on the day of judgement we will be brought forward in groups.. although i have no idea how to interpret that.


still no idea of why god would put anybody though there tests.. or how they can be repaired.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nDP0...3C1D23E599A8B3

[Pygoscelis]

Again God would not be responsible because he was not involved in committing the act.

I disagree. He created the person who would do it knowing they would do it. He set the wheels in motion. A person who hires a hitman is responsible for the murder, even though the hitman had free will and could have decided not to do it.

Yes he created those that do it but they have been given a choice. I'm aware he knows the outcome but he is not going to get involved.

He already is involved.

[GuestFellow]

I disagree. He created the person who would do it knowing they would do it.

:wa:

I disagree too. Just because you know someone is going to commit an act does not mean you are responsible.

He already is involved.

He's involved in the sense that he created us. However he is not involved in our daily conduct unless we ask for it through prayer. We have free will and we can do whatever we want.

The reason God is not responsible because we have the responsibility to look after each other and this world. We have been given free will and it comes with a set of responsibilities. So when bad events occur it is people that are responsible for allowing these events to occur and it is our responsibility to deal with them.

Besides God is not simply going to let people do whatever they want in this world and let them get away with it. We will all be accountable for our actions in the next world if our conduct is not dealt with appropriately in this world.

[Hulk]

Were you not given the ability to think, do you not have the ability to choose what would be the better choice between two choices?
If somehow you lack the ability to think properly, and you do not have a choice in your actions then sure you shouldn't be held accountable for your actions. But you do don't you?

How then does it make sense for you to place the blame on anything other than yourself?

It's just about thinking things through.

The analogy you gave is faulty as well.

Let's have a look

"Both should be held responsible. If I purposefully lock you in a room with a man whose made it his life mission to kill you, and give him a loaded pistol, it is still his free will to kill you, and he should be held responsible for the grisly act. But I should also be responsible. And in this case I did not create him into being as God is claimed to have done, so God's case is even more culpable."

Locked room = Temporal world/dunya
Man 1 who's life mission is to kill you = Oppressor
Man 2 (the victim) = The oppressed
Loaded gun = Means of oppression

You are saying that because God placed us in a position where we are in this world along with oppressors, He is responsible for the actions of the oppressor? How come you don't take into account that we are also given the ability to think as well as to choose our actions? Furthermore, we are given direct instructions not to oppress.

[Pygoscelis]

Just because you know someone is going to commit an act does not mean you are responsible.

It isn't merely that he knows someone will commit an act. He knew they would do so before he created them, and then he went ahead and created them.

The reason God is not responsible because we have the responsibility to look after each other and this world.

Both are responsible. Just because the created beings are responsible doesn't mean the creator who set it all up isn't responsible as well, especially if the creator knows what the creation is going to do if he creates particular creatures a particular way, and then goes ahead and creates them anyway. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this at this point since we're going around in circles now.

You are saying that because God placed us in a position where we are in this world along with oppressors, He is responsible for the actions of the oppressor? How come you don't take into account that we are also given the ability to think as well as to choose our actions? Furthermore, we are given direct instructions not to oppress.

If he created everything while knowing how it would turn out, then he is responsible for everything. It is not relevant to his culpability that the oppressor can choose. He knows what choice the oppressor will make and then presents the victims to the oppressor, and allows the oppressor the means with which to oppress.

If a warden hands deadly weapons out to violent inmates, he is responsible for the carnage that follows. The inmates have the ability to choose not to slaughter the non-violent inmates, but the Warden knows they'll do it and he gives them the means. The violent inmates are responsible for their actions. The warden is responsible as well. This is not a hard concept to grasp, unless you are motivated not to.

[Hulk]

If he created everything while knowing how it would turn out, then he is responsible for everything. It is not relevant to his culpability that the oppressor can choose. He knows what choice the oppressor will make and then presents the victims to the oppressor, and allows the oppressor the means with which to oppress.

If a warden hands deadly weapons out to violent inmates, he is responsible for the carnage that follows. The inmates have the ability to choose not to slaughter the non-violent inmates, but the Warden knows they'll do it and he gives them the means. The violent inmates are responsible for their actions. The warden is responsible as well. This is not a hard concept to grasp, unless you are motivated not to.

You are still using the same flawed analogy. Seems that you would prefer ignoring that the "warden" has given the inmates ability to think as well as the direct instructions not to hurt anyone, and I don't think God "handed" deadly weapons to anyone. Those who want it seek it out of their own desire, they chose to find it.

Actually the one having trouble understanding is you, since you haven't really taken the time to learn about Islam properly. Otherwise I could just tell you that its about ikhtiyar, amaanah, qadr.​

[Pygoscelis]

You are still using the same flawed analogy. Seems that you would prefer ignoring that the "warden" has given the inmates ability to think as well as the direct instructions not to hurt anyone, and I don't think God "handed" deadly weapons to anyone. Those who want it seek it out of their own desire, they chose to find it.

The inmates have the ability to think and the Warden gives them instructions not to hurt each other, but it is pretty certain they will. The only real flaws in the analogy are that the warden didn't create the inmates and didn't have complete certainty that they would slaughter each other when he allowed them to have weapons. That is why God is more responsible than this example of the warden.

Here is another query regarding the problem of evil and free will. If for the sake of argument I accept that free will makes suffering neccessary despite God being all powerful and all knowing (I don't), then what is heaven like? Is there no free will in heaven or is there suffering?

[جوري]

I think we can all agree we've reached this point:

Waitha raayta allatheena yakhoodoona fee ayatina faaAArid AAanhum hatta yakhoodoo fee hadeethin ghayrihi waimma yunsiyannaka alshshaytanu fala taqAAud baAAda alththikra maAAa alqawmi alththalimeena

6:68 When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.


There's nothing worse than Jaddal- you'll end up like bani Israel with Moses.. what's a cow, what kind of cow, what color is the cow, then even upon slaughter of the cow they ask which part of the cow.. just let it go Oh Muslims!

:w:

[MustafaMc]

I think we can all agree we've reached this point

I fully agree. The point of this thread was regarding observable evidence of Allah's (swt) existence and with the lack of this evidence, then why do people believe. Certain members have taken a different route and used the thread to try to prove through their own thinking ability from a strictly human perspective the non-existence of Allah (swt). All subsequent posts to this effect will be more closely moderated.

[Hulk]

Our duty is merely to relay the message, InshaAllah sincerely to the best of our ability. May this thread be of benefit to anyone with the prerequisites of a learner.

[جوري]

Our duty is merely to relay the message, InshaAllah sincerely to the best of our ability. May this thread be of benefit to anyone with the prerequisites of a learner.

:sl: akhi,

we've already done that- we've provided evidence from Quran we discussed reason and nature. It is like beating a dead horse.. there's an adage in Arabic even if astghfor Allah we put the Quran aside that states: ''Khyer al'kalaam ma qal wa dall'' I believe Ali Ibn Abu talib said it, the best of words are usually few & concise!
After a while we're not discussing anything of substance, we're discussing how an atheist feels and then building on his feelings and that's not logical argument nor is it the message we're meant to send, especially when they get insolent about how :Allah::swt: chooses to run the affairs of the universe!

:w:

[Hulk]

akhi,

we've already done that- we've provided evidence from Quran we discussed reason and nature. It is like beating a dead horse.. there's an adage in Arabic even if astghfor Allah we put the Quran aside that states: ''Khyer al'kalaam ma qal wa dall'' I believe Ali Ibn Abu talib said it, the best of words are usually few & concise!
After a while we're not discussing anything of substance, we're discussing how an atheist feels and then building on his feelings and that's not logical argument nor is it the message we're meant to send, especially when they get insolent about how chooses to run the affairs of the universe!

Wa alaykumsalam

نعم I fully agree with you ukhti, I think the horse died a few page back ;D but mashaAllah there are those who have more patience than me. I am very much reminded some of the ayahs of سورة البقرة. Syukran for the reminder :statisfie

[MustafaMc]

I ask those who believe in Allah, "Why do you believe in His existence?" We Muslims believe the Qur'an is the revealed word of Allah (swt) which declares, "Say, 'He is Allah [who is] One, Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born. Nor is there to Him any equivalent.' " We also accept Muhammad (saaws) as the Messenger of Allah, but doesn't that presume a prior belief in Allah? For me, I cannot ever remember not believing in God; however, my concept and understanding of God changed irrevocably 31 years ago after reading the Qur'an. At the time of this 'paradigm shift' I did not know fully who Muhammad (saaws) was and I believed the Bible was the Word of God. I have no understanding of why the change in my basic beliefs about God and Jesus came after only a few weeks of reading the Qur'an while other non-Muslims have read the Qur'an and yet remain unmoved by its words. Is my belief in God a result of a choice I made or is it an innate part of my being?

[Gator]

I ask those who believe in Allah, "Why do you believe in His existence?" We Muslims believe the Qur'an is the revealed word of Allah (swt) which declares, "Say, 'He is Allah [who is] One, Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born. Nor is there to Him any equivalent.' " We also accept Muhammad (saaws) as the Messenger of Allah, but doesn't that presume a prior belief in Allah? For me, I cannot ever remember not believing in God; however, my concept and understanding of God changed irrevocably 31 years ago after reading the Qur'an. At the time of this 'paradigm shift' I did not know fully who Muhammad (saaws) was and I believed the Bible was the Word of God. I have no understanding of why the change in my basic beliefs about God and Jesus came after only a few weeks of reading the Qur'an while other non-Muslims have read the Qur'an and yet remain unmoved by its words. Is my belief in God a result of a choice I made or is it an innate part of my being?

That is the question I seek. Why you have read the Quar'an, embraced its teachings as the Truth, while I who read it see only deception from reality.

It is quite remarkable.

I have found that even the wise are fundamentally wrong in their foundational arguments. They mistake ignorance with certainty. Logical constructs with illusions.

How can you accept the most ****able rules based on such flimsy, nee' non-existent, evidence?

Is it a choice? No, I don't think so. It seems reasonable to your brain, so you believe it. You have looked over the evidence of reality and come to the conclusion based on your thought processes that god exists.

Now if you were to believe that it is not possible, but you still believe in it, that would be choice.

[MustafaMc]

Why you have read the Quar'an, embraced its teachings as the Truth, while I who read it see only deception from reality.
It is quite remarkable.

Yes, indeed it is most remarkable and by analogy the same applies to the universe and all that exists as signs and evidences to the believer of the existence of its Creator and to the unbeliever who sees the same, but does not see any necessity for a Creator, apparently content that all that exists does so merely by random chance. Why does one see and another not see? Why does one believe and another not believe? The Qur'an also makes this connection with 45:4 "And in the creation of yourselves and what He disperses of moving creatures are signs for people who are certain [in faith]." There is an apparent oxymoron in this ayat - FAITH with CERTAINTY. One may ask, "Is not faith merely a belief about something for which there is no physical evidence and therefore held with uncertainty?" To the unbeliever, a person of faith has belief in something that to the unbeliever exists only in the mind of the believer - a mere myth! Yet the believer holds on to what he believes with absolute certainty and can not be convinced of the non-existence of his Creator.

I see the 4 nucleic acids that comprise DNA as letters in the alphabet of life with an amazing consistency across all living species. Arranged in groups of three nucleic acids, the DNA of each species codes for specific sequences of amino acids that miraculously come together to form specific proteins in very precise and specific places and times. Outside of that particular space and time this assemblage is absolutely worthless and does not result in the intended function, but within it the protein is essential to the development of a living individual of a specific species. The DNA of each species contains immense information that can be equated to volumes and volumes of encyclopedias. There are subtle differences that determine whether one zygote becomes a horse and another a donkey, one becomes a human and another becomes a chimpanzee, one becomes a cotton plant and another a hibiscus, etc. I see the genetic code as direct and irrefutable evidence of a Creator. To believe otherwise is to assume that Tolstoy's "War and Peace" could have been assembled by a naturalistic process over an exceedingly long period of time from the building blocks of letters. For someone to deny that this universe was created is analogous to someone denying that a person or persons wrote this novel. The Qur'an 46:26 comes to mind, "And We had certainly established them in such as We have not established you, and We made for them hearing and vision and hearts [i.e., intellect]. But their hearing and vision and hearts availed them not from anything [of the punishment] when they were [continually] rejecting the signs of Allah; and they were enveloped by what they used to ridicule."

[جوري]

Truth

deception

It is quite remarkable

fundamentally wrong

flimsy, nee' non-existent, evidence

I'd like it if atheists would make a small attempt at cutting the crap and the padding!
What you've written is much ado about nothing, which is almost always what atheists dish out. Just nonsense about their feelings, and logic and the delusions of everyone else!

best,

[GuestFellow]

It isn't merely that he knows someone will commit an act. He knew they would do so before he created them, and then he went ahead and created them.

Both are responsible. Just because the created beings are responsible doesn't mean the creator who set it all up isn't responsible as well, especially if the creator knows what the creation is going to do if he creates particular creatures a particular way, and then goes ahead and creates them anyway. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this at this point since we're going around in circles now.

Okay I'll stop. It was nice having a discussion with you.