Thank you for your time :)

[Burninglight]

I am going to stop posting for a while and read over carefully a lot of the threads and posts I missed. I will pray and be led of the Lord of what I should do next. I know God loves me regardless of what anyone says, I am trusting Him to deliver me from any deception in my life. One could never appreciate the mercy of God until they have known the Devil's justice. I have experienced Satan's justice and tasted that the Lord is good. Thank you all for your time and patience. Some of you have been particulary sweet. I have shared all I know to be the truth in all sincerity, but Islam doesn't shine for me. God has not led me in that direction.
you are all loved
Burninglight
Burned out
imsad

[Burninglight]

PS. If any want to PM me, that is fine. I promise to respond. In the mean time I am tying to catch up with all the links and youtube videos all have sent me. There is a lot more going on then I know. So, I don't want to speak about that which I don't know about Islam, because even what I think I know may not be true. So I am going to try listening and watching a little more.
Respectfully
Burninglight

[Perseveranze]

I wish you had been sincere.

[Riana17]

Hello Brother

Dont forget what I told you, dont loose hope to find the truth and it needs alot of time and effort from your side.

Islam teaches us to learn everything and weigh them inorder to gain IMAAN (faith + knowledge) and choose the most logic

Have you seen the Science In Quran? Like Mecca being centre of the earth, or the embroyology or 7Heavens or how world has been created?

Inshallah you wont stop looking for answer and I assure you even if you get some impatient replies in IB, everyone here will welcome you in our religion. inshallah ya raabb, we can only hope and pray because converting people is no way in human's hands...

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[~ Sabr ~]

Peace be with you brother

You seem to be wanting to be guided to the truth genuinely, from the bottom of your heart. I pray Allaah guides you to the straight path and you become part of our very large family soon brother, Ameen.

[Burninglight]

Peace be with you brother

You seem to be wanting to be guided to the truth genuinely, from the bottom of your heart. I pray Allaah guides you to the straight path and you become part of our very large family soon brother, Ameen.

After all my study, I have learned something from Islam, and one thing I agree with, but that is as far as my convictions will allow me. I now believe that God is not a begetter nor is He begotten and that the only true God is one. The Lord our God is one. Only a Devil would say differently. I am a Christian.

[Txyib]

salam
it makes me cry when a person walks away and just doesnt go into research
brother i think what would be best is if you searched more into islam and the miracles done proven by science
wasalam
محمد طيب

[Amat Allah]

Bismellahi Irrahmani Irraheem

No matter who you are and where you are O my respected and noble brother, May Allah lead your way to the path of the endless true happiness and give ya the best of this life and the best of the after life and the whole world too Ameeeeen

as long as you are searching for The Lord then O my brother try your best to trust Him and believe that He will in shaa Allah make you find your way to Him The AlMighty...

I have suffered so much and tasted the bitterness of this life till I found Him The Exalted and now I am happy being His slave and servant and I pray that He accepts me and forgives my lapses and mistakes...Ameeeeeen

I have changed , my life changed , the people around me and everything from the worst to the best ..all Praise, Thanks and Glory be to The One Who belong to Him all Might and Mejesty

O brother I have never known happiness till I knew my way to Him The Most Merciful The Most Compassionate my Lord my world my everything and now no matter what I may face or would happen in shaa Allah then I won`t be but His slave and if not Allah (our Lord and Creator) then I don`t wana be... life is meaningless with out Him and His love.

and only to point out to something O brother, when embracing Islam is not only to be called or named a Muslim , my brother the word Islam is the verb from the root "aslama" ( a verb) and it means to surrender yourself to The Lord; submit to Him The Most High; obey Him The One , to be sincere and have peace and be pleased with whatever Allah predestined for you...

this is how to be a Muslim O brother and if the bad actions and deeds of some Muslims would prevent ya from seeing the beauty of this religion of Allah then I am telling ya there are many Muslims who are Muslims only by name and also we are all humans we do mistakes; we are neither angels nor impeccable ...Muslims are not perfect but our Lord Is The Most Perfect and the way of life He the Exalted gave to us which is islam...and May Allah forgive us Ameeeeeeeen

May Allah lead your way O noble brother to Him and guide ya to the best always and forever Ameeeeeeeeeen

please take care of your precious self...

leaving ya under Allah`s sight, care and protection

Humbly and with all the respect, your sister no matter what way you may choose or take:

Amat Allah

[Predator]

After all my study, I have learned something from Islam, and one thing I agree with, but that is as far as my convictions will allow me. I now believe that God is not a begetter nor is He begotten and that the only true God is one. The Lord our God is one. Only a Devil would say differently. I am a Christian.

You mentioned that you now believe that "God is not a begetter and nor a begotten".

So am i right in assuming you now believe that Jesus is not a God and is no longer part of the trinity. ?

We have 4 tests given in chapter 112 the same chapter which from which you quoted the verse to apply on anyone who has been labelled as God and he fails all 4 of them

1 He is one and only one

FAILED :Jesus is not only with the name Jesus. Jesus wasnt even his original name . It was Eesa in Aramaic

2. He is eternal absolute

FAILED :He was not eternal as he was only born 2012 years ago

3. He is neither begotten nor begets

FAILED . He didnt have children He was born to Mary.

4. There is none like him

FAILED His birth is not unique can be compared to creations of Adam from Dust and also John who was miraculously born to a barren mother

Jesus never asked people to worship him but you would they worshipped him. Even others people were worshipped similarly

1 Samuel 24
8 Then David went out of the cave and called out to Saul, "My lord the king!" When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.


Notice how David called Saul "my lord". While this is elaborated on much greatly in this article, but I just find it quite ridiculous that you Christians use "Jesus is lord" as a desperate proof for your lies about Jesus being our so-called "Creator".
Also, when David prostrated his face down to the ground to Saul, was he worshiping Saul as if Saul was GOD Almighty?

More examples:
2 Samuel 14:4
4 When the woman from Tekoa went to the king, she fell with her face to the ground to pay him honor, and she said, "Help me, O king!"
2 Samuel 14:22
22 Joab fell with his face to the ground to pay him honor, and he blessed the king. Joab said, "Today your servant knows that he has found favor in your eyes, my lord the king, because the king has granted his servant's request."




His miracles were not unique . Prophets of the old testament did same and even more complicated ones


Bringing the dead back to life:
"Then he cried out to the LORD , "O LORD my God, have you brought tragedy also upon this widow I am staying with, by causing her son to die?" Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried to the LORD , "O LORD my God, let this boy's life return to him!" The LORD heard Elijah's cry, and the boy's life returned to him, and he lived. Elijah picked up the child and carried him down from the room into the house. He gave him to his mother and said, "Look, your son is alive!" (From the NIV Bible, 1 Kings 17:20-23)"
"But the child's mother said, "As surely as the LORD lives and as you live, I will not leave you." So he got up and followed her. Gehazi went on ahead and laid the staff on the boy's face, but there was no sound or response. So Gehazi went back to meet Elisha and told him, "The boy has not awakened." When Elisha reached the house, there was the boy lying dead on his couch. He went in, shut the door on the two of them and prayed to the LORD. Then he got on the bed and lay upon the boy, mouth to mouth, eyes to eyes, hands to hands. As he stretched himself out upon him, the boy's body grew warm. Elisha turned away and walked back and forth in the room and then got on the bed and stretched out upon him once more. The boy sneezed seven times and opened his eyes. Elisha summoned Gehazi and said, "Call the Shunammite." And he did. When she came, he said, "Take your son." (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 4:30-36)"

Jesus' dead body never caused for any dead to come back to life, but Elisha's did:
"Elisha died and was buried. Now Moabite raiders used to enter the country every spring. Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man's body into Elisha's tomb. When the body touched Elisha's bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet. Hazael king of Aram oppressed Israel throughout the reign of Jehoahaz. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 13:20-22)"

Creating life:
Jesus only restored life, but never actually created one from scratch. Moses, however, did create a live snake from a wooden stick:
"Then the LORD said to him, "What is that in your hand?" "A staff," he replied. The LORD said, "Throw it on the ground." Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it. Then the LORD said to him, "Reach out your hand and take it by the tail." So Moses reached out and took hold of the snake and it turned back into a staff in his hand. (From the NIV Bible, Exodus 4:2-4)"

Curing the blind:
"When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. "Oh, my lord, what shall we do?" the servant asked. "Don't be afraid," the prophet answered. "Those who are with us are more than those who are with them." And Elisha prayed, "O LORD , open his eyes so he may see." Then the LORD opened the servant's eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. As the enemy came down toward him, Elisha prayed to the LORD , "Strike these people with blindness." So he struck them with blindness, as Elisha had asked. Elisha told them, "This is not the road and this is not the city. Follow me, and I will lead you to the man you are looking for." And he led them to Samaria. After they entered the city, Elisha said, "LORD , open the eyes of these men so they can see." Then the LORD opened their eyes and they looked, and there they were, inside Samaria. When the king of Israel saw them, he asked Elisha, "Shall I kill them, my father? Shall I kill them?" "Do not kill them," he answered. "Would you kill men you have captured with your own sword or bow? Set food and water before them so that they may eat and drink and then go back to their master." So he prepared a great feast for them, and after they had finished eating and drinking, he sent them away, and they returned to their master. So the bands from Aram stopped raiding Israel's territory. Some time later, Ben-Hadad king of Aram mobilized his entire army and marched up and laid siege to Samaria. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 6:15-24)"

Healing leprosy:
"Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, "Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed." But Naaman went away angry and said, "I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than any of the waters of Israel? Couldn't I wash in them and be cleansed?" So he turned and went off in a rage. Naaman's servants went to him and said, "My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, 'Wash and be cleansed'!" So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 5:10-14)"

Feeding hundreds with few loafs of bread:
"A man came from Baal Shalishah, bringing the man of God twenty loaves of barley bread baked from the first ripe grain, along with some heads of new grain. "Give it to the people to eat," Elisha said. "How can I set this before a hundred men?" his servant asked. But Elisha answered, "Give it to the people to eat. For this is what the LORD says: 'They will eat and have some left over.' " Then he set it before them, and they ate and had some left over, according to the word of the LORD. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 4:42-44)"
So as we clearly see from the above verses, Jesus' Miracles were not unique. Therefore, they can never be used to prove that he is the Creator of the Universe.

I can go on with comparison If you only read your bible properly , you would have found enough similarities

[Pygoscelis]

This seems like the appropriate place for me to bid you guys farewell too.

I came here 6 years ago after experiencing a lot of islamophobia on christian (mostly) and atheist (somewhat) boards following 9/11. Fed up with that I decided to go and check out Islam for myself (along with Snakelegs) and to confirm or dispel the claims that were being made, and so I came to this board. Over the years I have dispelled a lot of nasty things those people were saying and continue to say. I've learned a lot about Islam, a lot of it refreshing, some of it troubling.

I think I've seen what I need to see here and so I'm moving on, pretty much on the same ideological course as I had when I arrived, but better educated.

I wish you all well.

Peace :)

[CosmicPathos]

This seems like the appropriate place for me to bid you guys farewell too.

I came here 6 years ago after experiencing a lot of islamophobia on christian (mostly) and atheist (somewhat) boards following 9/11. Fed up with that I decided to go and check out Islam for myself (along with Snakelegs) and to confirm or dispel the claims that were being made, and so I came to this board. Over the years I have dispelled a lot of nasty things those people were saying and continue to say. I've learned a lot about Islam, a lot of it refreshing, some of it troubling.

I think I've seen what I need to see here and so I'm moving on, pretty much on the same ideological course as I had when I arrived, but better educated.

I wish you all well.

Peace :)

To you killing all religions is justified, to me killing all dangerous anti-theists is justified. Everyone has their own moral compass, no one's is superior to other's

Good luck with all that life has to throw at you.

[Maryan0]

I wish you all well.

Peace :)

I wish you well also. If your leaving has to do with the closed topic on annihilating atheists, it was a serious failure in moderating and impartiality.
Salam

[MustafaMc]

This seems like the appropriate place for me to bid you guys farewell too.

I came here 6 years ago after experiencing a lot of islamophobia on christian (mostly) and atheist (somewhat) boards following 9/11. Fed up with that I decided to go and check out Islam for myself (along with Snakelegs) and to confirm or dispel the claims that were being made, and so I came to this board. Over the years I have dispelled a lot of nasty things those people were saying and continue to say. I've learned a lot about Islam, a lot of it refreshing, some of it troubling.

I think I've seen what I need to see here and so I'm moving on, pretty much on the same ideological course as I had when I arrived, but better educated.

I wish you all well.

Peace :)

Few members here have been on board long enough to know our friend Snakelegs. Communication with her friend indicated that she had taken the shahadah before she died. Each person has his own decisions to make and no one can force another to believe what is not in their hearts. I am hopeful that you have benefited from your interactions on this forum and that a seed of faith has been planted in your heart that will come to fruition as I believe it did with her.

[Burninglight]

Creating life:
Jesus only restored life, but never actually created one from scratch. Moses, however, did create a live snake from a wooden stick:
"Then the LORD said to him, "What is that in your hand?" "A staff," he replied. The LORD said, "Throw it on the ground." Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it. Then the LORD said to him, "Reach out your hand and take it by the tail." So Moses reached out and took hold of the snake and it turned back into a staff in his hand. (From the NIV Bible, Exodus 4:2-4)"

In Islam didn't Jesus create and give life to a clay bird?
Heb1 ¹ In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, ² but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. ³ The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. ⁴ So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. The Son Superior to Angels

⁵ For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”^[a]?
Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”^[b]?
⁶ And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”^[c] NIV

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

who is the author of Hebrews?

:wa:

[Burninglight]

who is the author of Hebrews?

Christians would answer the same as you would about the author of the Quran.^{Act 2: 29} “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. ³⁰ Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, ³¹ he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. ³² This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. ³³ … ³⁶ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Deut 18: 18 fulfilled: Acts 3 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. ¹⁹ Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, ²⁰ that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, ²¹ whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. ²² Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. ²³ And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ ²⁴ And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.
^{Jesus & Moses:
Exodus 4: 16} He shall speak for you to the people, and he shall be your mouth, and you shall be as God to him.
Acts 2 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
Also:
Both saved form infanticide
The seas obeyed them both
Both saviors
Both preformed miracles
Both were called out of Egypt

[Burninglight]

who is the author of Hebrews?

I would answer the same as you would about the Quran.

^{Act 2: 29} “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. ³⁰ Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, ³¹ he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. ³² This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. ³³ … ³⁶ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Deut 18: 18 fulfilled: Acts 3 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. ¹⁹ Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, ²⁰ that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, ²¹ whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. ²² Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. ²³ And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ ²⁴ And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.
^{Jesus & Moses:
Exodus 4: 16} He shall speak for you to the people, and he shall be your mouth, and you shall be as God to him.
Acts 2 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
Also:
Both saved from infanticide
The seas obeyed them both
Both saviors
Both preformed miracles
Both were called out of Egypt

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

ah, the question was, "who is the author of Hebrews?"

and now, who wrote Acts?

and who wrote Deuteronomy?

simple questions. you quote them [the books], i'm just asking who wrote the books.

:wa:

[Burninglight]

ah, the question was, "who is the author of Hebrews?"

It was answered in my last post. When you ask a Christian who wrote Bible, isn't that like asking a Muslim who wrote the Quran?

Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[YusufNoor]

It was answered in my last post. When you ask a Christian who wrote Bible, isn't that like asking a Muslim who wrote the Quran?

um, no. but i'll rephrase the question.

Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

:sl:

preface:

the Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad, pbuh. not a single word is written it that was not contemporaneously written down by literate Sahabah, ra, when verses or chapters were revealed. Muslims, during 3 of the 5 daily prayers, recite Surah's out loud. if they make a mistake, someone corrects them. during the eves of Ramadhan, the entire Qur'an is recited out loud in prayer in 29 days. during the last 10 days of Ramadhan, it is recited out loud in prayer in 10 days. this started during the life of the Prophet, pbuh, and is done every Muslim lunar year. in addition, many don't have it memorized read 1 Juz everyday; there are 30 Juz in the Qur'an. it was not the "position" of the Prophet, pbuh, that the Qur'an needed to be put in "book" form, Abu Bakr, ra, conceded to this after Umar ibn al Kittaab, ra, argued extensively after 70 Hafiz of the Qur'an were killed in 1 battle. a Hafz is one who can recite the entire Qur'an from memory. there have always been, regardless of any orientalist or shiite says, Hafz of the Qur'an. i reckon there are 10 million of them today. thus we can pinpoint the origins of the Qur'an. the person it was revealed to was Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Abdul Muttalib Al Hashemi Al Qurayshi, pbuh. every word Zaid ibn Thaabit compiled had to have 3 witness to the Prophet, pbuh, reciting it after it had been revealed.

so, who was it that God inspired to write Hebrews?

who was it that God inspired to write Acts?

who was it that God inspired to write Deuteronomy?

and now, who was it that God inspired to write Timothy?

very simple questions. can you answer them? in your mind, your salvation is based, in part, on those books [along with others that you frequently quote.] so these should be important questions to be answered.

:wa:

[Predator]

In Islam didn't Jesus create and give life to a clay bird?

And You dont beleive in that as that is the Quran .
Its God doing the work and its no different from the stick being turned to a snake as in the case of Moses (PBUH)

“I create for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with God’s permission.” (Quran 3:49)
This miracle is not found in the your bible New Testament, but it is found in the non-canonical ‘Infancy Gospel of Thomas,’

“When this boy, Jesus, was five years old, he was playing at the ford of a rushing stream… he then made soft clay and shaped it into twelve sparrows… but Jesus simply clapped his hands and shouted to the sparrows: “Be off, fly away, and remember me, you who are now alive!” And the sparrows took off and flew away noisily.” (Infancy Gospel of Thomas:2)

It was answered in my last post. When you ask a Christian who wrote Bible, isn't that like asking a Muslim who wrote the Quran?

Tim 3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Could you tell how a scripture be an inspiration of God word of God and yet have below errors ?

2 Samuel 10:18 - David slew 700 and 40,000 horsemen and Shobach the commander.
1 Chronicles 19:18 - David slew 7000 chariots and 40,000 footmen.
2 Chronicles 9:25 - Solomon had 4000 stalls for horses and chariots.
1 Kings 4:26 - Solomon had 40,000 stalls for horses.
Ezra 2:5 - Arah had 775 sons.
Nehemiah 7:10 - Arah had 652 sons.
2 Samuel 24:13 - SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE.
1 Chronicles 21:11-12 - THREE YEARS OF FAMINE.
How did Judas die?
Matthew 27:5 - Hanged himself.
Acts 1:18 - And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out.
2 Samuel 6:23 - MICHAL never had a child until she died.
2 Samuel 21:8 - MICHAL had 5 sons.
2 Kings 24:8 - Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he began to reign.
2 Chronicles 36:9 - Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he began to reign.
1 Kings 16:6-8 - 26th year of the reign of Asa, Baasha reigned over Israel.
2 Chronicles 16:1 - 36th year of the reign of Asa, Baasha reigned over Israel.

[Burninglight]

so, who was it that God inspired to write Hebrews?

who was it that God inspired to write Acts?

who was it that God inspired to write Deuteronomy?

and now, who was it that God inspired to write Timothy?

very simple questions. can you answer them? in your mind, your salvation is based, in part, on those books [along with others that you frequently quote.] so these should be important questions to be answered.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John-14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

-15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

-16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Christians like me believe the Holy Spirit is God otherwise known as the Spirit of truth. Jesus as you can see from Scripture sends the Spirit of truth. Anyone that sends someone must be equal or greater in authority.

Who testifies of Jesus?
Who brings Him glory?
The Spirit of truth does. The Bible was written by men inspired and led by the Spirit of Truth the Holy Spirit in essence GOD

Jesus said "I AM the way the truth and the Life." He didn't say, "I show you the way and the truth" like all other prophets. Christians don't take the words of Jesus (PBUH) lightly.

[MustafaMc]

The following quotation is from a link provided to me by Burninglight apparently a.ka. 'Brother Andrew' soliciting me to communicate with him via e-mail. I will let you decide for yourself if you want to continue interacting with him. It seems ironic that this guy wants to interact with Muslims on this forum, but yet is highly concerned about remaining anonymous so "Truth Hating Muslims" can't "swear, curse, condemn or send him their latest Fatwa". Note the 'On Line' date. ^o) On Line since: September 11, 2002, 8:46 A.M.

E-mail Brother Andrew

!

Note:

1. I have tried to be careful in both my research and conclusions. I am also sensitive to errors and inaccuracies in what I have said and will make changes when in error.
2. Using your memory or a pen and paper, copy the email address from this graphic into your email program.
3. I need to do this because we get a lot of hate mail from Muslims and most of them cannot read (or write) in English very well. (And yes, I know some Muslims do have Phd's in 8th century Algebra History, Global Computer Hacking Terrorism and Embryology; and can read and write in English quite well.) But the point is, I don't want to make is easy for Truth Hating Muslims to swear, curse, condemn or send me their latest Fatwa. Nice emails commending me for being brave, honest, kind, truthful and a Christian are always welcome!
4. I requested the webmasters and editors at xxxxxx to host my materials on their web site, as you have for "brother Andrew". Thanks guys!
5. I remain anonymous for security reasons. God Bless America! "The Good 'ol USA!!!"

It seems that Burninglight is not the same person as 'Brother Andrew'.

[YusufNoor]

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John-14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

-15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

-16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Christians like me believe the Holy Spirit is God otherwise known as the Spirit of truth. Jesus as you can see from Scripture sends the Spirit of truth. Anyone that sends someone must be equal or greater in authority.

Who testifies of Jesus?
Who brings Him glory?
The Spirit of truth does. The Bible was written by men inspired and led by the Spirit of Truth the Holy Spirit in essence GOD

Jesus said "I AM the way the truth and the Life." He didn't say, "I show you the way and the truth" like all other prophets. Christians don't take the words of Jesus (PBUH) lightly.

BismiAllah Ar Rahman Ar Raheem,

greeting of peace burninglight,

i see once again that you are incapable of answering any questions about your scriptures. it seems that you can only post Biblical verses and references to the satanic verses. but that's OK with me, i understand that it is very difficult for you to escape Shaytaan's grip. in order to help free you from the bonds of the hellfire, i will, in sha'a Allah, take some of my precious time to shed light upon your errors.

i understand that you and your fellows Christians are under the belief, based upon faulty scriptures that the Comforter prophesied by Jesus, pbuh, is the "Holy Spirit" that you claim is one third of a unified godhead; you further claim that this associate partner of the godhead is here and has never left us. let's examine your scriptures briefly in order to determine the accuracy of your belief, shall we?

Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[b] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

Acts 5:12 The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade. 13 No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. 14 Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. 15 As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. 16 Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by impure spirits, and all of them were healed.

32 As Peter traveled about the country, he went to visit the Lord’s people who lived in Lydda. 33 There he found a man named Aeneas, who was paralyzed and had been bedridden for eight years. 34 “Aeneas,” Peter said to him, “Jesus Christ heals you. Get up and roll up your mat.” Immediately Aeneas got up. 35 All those who lived in Lydda and Sharon saw him and turned to the Lord.

36 In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (in Greek her name is Dorcas); she was always doing good and helping the poor. 37 About that time she became sick and died, and her body was washed and placed in an upstairs room. 38 Lydda was near Joppa; so when the disciples heard that Peter was in Lydda, they sent two men to him and urged him, “Please come at once!”

39 Peter went with them, and when he arrived he was taken upstairs to the room. All the widows stood around him, crying and showing him the robes and other clothing that Dorcas had made while she was still with them.

40 Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. 41 He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called for the believers, especially the widows, and presented her to them alive. 42 This became known all over Joppa, and many people believed in the Lord. 43 Peter stayed in Joppa for some time with a tanner named Simon.

so, let's recap: according to [spurious] Christian writings, here the book of Acts, we learn that:

1) a tongue of fire appears upon Christians when "filled" with the Holy Ghost.

2) Christian leaders, filled with the Holy Ghost can cure people merely having them fall under their shadow!

3) they can also raise people from the dead!

this is what you believe, so let me ask you, where are these people sporting tongues of fire that can cure people with their shadow and raise people from the dead? according to you, these spirit would be with "you" ALWAYS!

so...where are they?

can you tell us?

if you can't tell us where they are then you have to admit that your "spirit" has indeed departed. and left nearly 2000 years ago. thus, your scriptures are in error.

thank you for the opportunity to discuss this and i look forward to your response.

and i wouldn't be sam if i didn't ask:

who was it the God inspired the write the gospel now called John? and when was it written? and who can confirm this?

peace!

[Burninglight]

The following quotation is from a link provided to me by Burninglight apparently a.ka. 'Brother Andrew' soliciting me to communicate with him via e-mail. I will let you decide for yourself if you want to continue interacting with him.

It seems ironic that this guy wants to interact with Muslims on this forum, but yet is highly concerned about remaining anonymous so "Truth Hating Muslims" can't "swear, curse, condemn or send him their latest Fatwa". Note the 'On Line' date

Well, I told you that I don't agree with someone being anonymous and I believe this brother Andrew is not anonoymous. He just doesn't want to receive hate mail. I tried writing to him for the first time, but he didn't answer me. I thought he made some good points to send, and I didn't mean to sent that other part to you; I told you that in PM, but you chose to ignore it and post my PM publicly may Allah/God judge between us.

greeting of peace burninglight,

i see once again that you are incapable of answering any questions about your scriptures. it seems that you can only post Biblical verses and references to the satanic verses. but that's OK with me, i understand that it is very difficult for you to escape Shaytaan's grip. in order to help free you from the bonds of the hellfire, i will, in sha'a Allah, take some of my precious time to shed light upon your errors.

i understand that you and your fellows Christians are under the belief, based upon faulty scriptures that the Comforter prophesied by Jesus, pbuh, is the "Holy Spirit" that you claim is one third of a unified godhead; you further claim that this associate partner of the godhead is here and has never left us. let's examine your scriptures briefly in order to determine the accuracy of your belief, shall we?

i might be incapable, but I am not sure what question you ask that I didn't answer so if you can plz post it again. I don't mind being blasted & you can sock it to me as long as you can take it as well. It is only me researching all I am told. I represent a critical view of all that I am presented with. I will respect you and be civil, but if you cannot handle dialogue with me I will not post to you in deference to your wishes.

[Burninglight]

so, let's recap: according to [spurious] Christian writings, here the book of Acts, we learn that:

1) a tongue of fire appears upon Christians when "filled" with the Holy Ghost.

2) Christian leaders, filled with the Holy Ghost can cure people merely having them fall under their shadow!

3) they can also raise people from the dead!

this is what you believe, so let me ask you, where are these people sporting tongues of fire that can cure people with their shadow and raise people from the dead? according to you, these spirit would be with "you" ALWAYS!

so...where are they?

can you tell us?

if you can't tell us where they are then you have to admit that your "spirit" has indeed departed. and left nearly 2000 years ago. thus, your scriptures are in error.

thank you for the opportunity to discuss this and i look forward to your response.

and i wouldn't be sam if i didn't ask:

who was it the God inspired the write the gospel now called John? and when was it written? and who can confirm this?

peace!

It is in me! I have done greater than these. Do you want to hear my testimony?

[YusufNoor]

i might be incapable, but I am not sure what question you ask that I didn't answer so if you can plz post it again. I don't mind being blasted & you can sock it to me as long as you can take it as well. It is only me researching all I am told. I represent a critical view of all that I am presented with.

all you do is quote anonymous books.

I will respect you and be civil, but if you cannot handle dialogue with me I will not post to you in deference to your wishes.

if your going to to refer to the Qur'an as satanic verses, ad naseum, i shall have to refer to your books as the same. NOTHING that i write comes from Christian hate sites, NOTHING! i am 53 and have only been a Muslim about 6 years. i spent decades studying Christianity [was raised Catholic]. i still listen to College lectures on Christianity, the History of Christianity, the History of the Bible and still read books on those same topics for my own research. i KNOW what is wrong with the books you call scripture. i know, and advise when i can, a couple of brothers who travel the globe debating Christians [quite successfully]. i realize how you feel that your books and your faith compare to Islam, but you are WRONG in your conclusions/assumptions. the only research i need to do is what Bible quotes to copy here; ALL of my questions are my own. your feelings may be your own, but none of your questions are. but that's OK too. i shall endeavor to answer your pms, in sha'a Allah, even using the hate crap you post because i can still make argument using them because the stuff you are going to see me post is MY OWN WORK! i was nearing writing a book, but i'll just use this an an opportunity to put forth my positions here. historically, your position is weak. you just don't know it. by comparison, Islam crushes Christianity. you probably aren't aware, but using the original language of each one can say the the Qur'an was completed BEFORE the Bible was! and i'll even use the dates you posted from anti-Islamic hate sites to show it! in sha'a Allah!

:sl:

so, who was it that God inspired to write Hebrews?

who was it that God inspired to write Acts?

who was it that God inspired to write Deuteronomy?

and now, who was it that God inspired to write Timothy?

who was it the God inspired the write the gospel now called John? and when was it written? and who can confirm this?

1) a tongue of fire appears upon Christians when "filled" with the Holy Ghost.

2) Christian leaders, filled with the Holy Ghost can cure people merely having them fall under their shadow!

3) they can also raise people from the dead!

this is what you believe, so let me ask you, where are these people sporting tongues of fire that can cure people with their shadow and raise people from the dead? according to you, these spirit would be with "you" ALWAYS!

so...where are they?

there are some question. perhaps you missed them, eh?

peace

[MustafaMc]

ALL of my questions are my own...stuff you are going to see me post is MY OWN WORK!

The same goes for me. I too write my own thoughts and I provide the reference and give credit to others when I quote them. I don't visit sites that tear down or refute Christianity as some people apparently do with Islam. Why is there such hatred toward Muslims and Islam in general?

[YusufNoor]

ALL of my questions are my own...stuff you are going to see me post is MY OWN WORK!

The same goes for me. I too write my own thoughts and I provide the reference and give credit to others when I quote them. I don't visit sites that tear down or refute Christianity as some people apparently do with Islam. Why is there such hatred toward Muslims and Islam in general?

:sl:

imho, western education was heavily by the Jesuits. even Protestants, during the era of the reformation considered those schools the best. the western concept of history is seeped in Jesuit dogma. Christians assume that history and especially their history is and has been correctly furnished to them. it hasn't been. thinking that they know the truth about history and esp their religion,they assume they have the truth. now present them with Islam and of course they are going to think it is false. thus, when they come upon something like "the satanic verses", they think, "well, there you go. it's all answered right there. i don't have to do any thinking or any work. how cool!" because they assume that they have the truth and Islam is false, they likewise assume that something calling Islam false is thus the truth!

now because the don't actually know the truth about their scriptures, they have no clue that even some of the things they think badly about the Qur'an are still better than the truth about their own book! i intend to use THEIR dates about the Qur'an and pit that against the truth about their book! in sha'a Allah.

why? because we still come out on top! by centuries!

like taking candy from a baby...

;D

:wa:

[Burninglight]

if your going to to refer to the Qur'an as satanic verses, ad naseum, i shall have to refer to your books as the same.

I never referred to the Quran as satanic verses, but I did share verses from the Al-tabari 6:111 “I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.” ~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111) Now, if this is not a true quote tell me, but if it is, what is it in referrence to if not to Satanic verse such as the exalted three cranes whose intercession is hoped for? Now, I am not going to hate sites. It is a person whose research made me think, and I shared some of it with you. That person also asks if anyone finds any comments to be untrue and can proof it, he would publically recant and correct his research. you simple chose to get on the offensive. That was your choice.
It was also you choice to share my PM to you on a public forum which in my opinion is not ethical. The Bible teaches us "Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them" If I get offended, I try loving God's law more. That is my cure. Brother Andrew never responded to my first email that day; so, he is not anonomyous like you said. If I could email him, you could have as well. You are saying things that are not true about me by twisting and sharing PMs. WADR, I find that reprehensible on you part.
If you cut down the Bible Scriptures because of what I said, you are also cutting down Islam and the Quran, because whether you care to admit it or not, there is a link between what comes before of God's word and what comes after. I don't mind hard questions about the Bible and my beliefs; sock it to me. But if you dish it out you should be able to take it as well.

Now I answered you questions look at the previous post.
Keep the peace bro
:)

['Abd-al Latif]

I never referred to the Quran as satanic verses, but I did share verses from the Al-tabari 6:111 “I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.” ~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111) Now, if this is not a true quote tell me, but if it is, what is it in referrence to if not to Satanic verse such as the exalted three cranes whose intercession is hoped for? Now, I am not going to hate sites. It is a person whose research made me think, and I shared some of it with you. That person also asks if anyone finds any comments to be untrue and can proof it, he would publically recant and correct his research. you simple chose to get on the offensive. That was your choice.
It was also you choice to share my PM to you on a public forum which in my opinion is not ethical. The Bible teaches us "Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them" If I get offended, I try loving God's law more. That is my cure. Brother Andrew never responded to my first email that day; so, he is not anonomyous like you said. If I could email him, you could have as well. You are saying things that are not true about me by twisting and sharing PMs. WADR, I find that reprehensible on you part.
If you cut down the Bible Scriptures because of what I said, you are also cutting down Islam and the Quran, because whether you care to admit it or not, there is a link between what comes before of God's word and what comes after. I don't mind hard questions about the Bible and my beliefs; sock it to me. But if you dish it out you should be able to take it as well.

Now I answered you questions look at the previous post.
Keep the peace bro
:)

I haven't been following this thread so please clarify: are you referring the highlighted text to Prophet Muhammed :saws1:?

If you are than I advise you not to accept vague and remote findings that are generally not accepted by Muslim. Firstly because not all the narrations in Tabari are accepted and secondly because you cannot learn Islam from non-Muslims, just like I can't learn Christianity from an atheist.

What we follow of Islam are those things which are clear and confirmed; this includes the belief that Muhammed :saws1: never having lied against God nor invented anything against Him. The proof of that is in Qur'an itself.

The Qur'an says:

And if he (Muhammad) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allâh),

We surely would have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might),

And then we certainly would have cut off his life artery (Aorta), And none of you could witheld Us from (punishing) him.

(Quran 69:44-47)

And the Qur'an further says:

By the star when it goes down, (or vanishes).

Your companion (Muhammad) has neither gone astray nor has erred.

Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

It is only a Revelation revealed.

He has been taught (this Qur'ân) by one mighty in power [Gabriel]

(Quran 53:1-5)

Whatever it was that made you think about that false saying in Tabari should after this be discarded (though I highly doubt that I would find that in the books of Tabari about Muhammed :saws1: in the original Arabic versions).

[MustafaMc]

Well, I told you that I don't agree with someone being anonymous and I believe this brother Andrew is not anonoymous. He just doesn't want to receive hate mail. I tried writing to him for the first time, but he didn't answer me. I thought he made some good points to send, and I didn't mean to sent that other part to you; I told you that in PM, but you chose to ignore it and post my PM publicly may Allah/God judge between us.

It seems that I made an error and that you are not 'Brother Andrew' as I first thought. I didn't read any additional messages where you may have explained that. It also seems that you made the mistake of copying too much of what someone else wrote that you did not intend to send to me. This portion of your message in red used 'Koran' whereas you use 'Quran'. Though this clarifies the situation, it also shows where you have gotten your Islamic information. It is better that you are now trying to communicate directly with Muslims. I hope that you can overcome your bias and evaluate what is written impartially. I apologize and ask you to forgive me for my mistake.

To answer your question, I converted to Islam 30 years ago. I and my wife are the only Muslims in our entire families.

[YusufNoor]

I never referred to the Quran as satanic verses, but I did share verses from the Al-tabari 6:111 “I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.” ~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111) Now, if this is not a true quote tell me, but if it is, what is it in referrence to if not to Satanic verse such as the exalted three cranes whose intercession is hoped for? Now, I am not going to hate sites. It is a person whose research made me think, and I shared some of it with you. That person also asks if anyone finds any comments to be untrue and can proof it, he would publically recant and correct his research. you simple chose to get on the offensive. That was your choice.

you ask about hadeeths that are taken out of context or inauthentic. i have responded to those here and i sent you a link. you responded with ANOTHER copy of the same crap you started with and not offering a single opinion about the response you received.

It was also you choice to share my PM to you on a public forum which in my opinion is not ethical.

the pm system doesn't allow the same size posts as the forum, so it requires more work. i don't have that much time. also the work that i do is intended for others to use, so it will get posted anyway.

The Bible teaches us "Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them" If I get offended, I try loving God's law more. That is my cure. Brother Andrew never responded to my first email that day; so, he is not anonomyous like you said. If I could email him, you could have as well. You are saying things that are not true about me by twisting and sharing PMs. WADR, I find that reprehensible on you part.

"try loving God's law more"

If you cut down the Bible Scriptures because of what I said, you are also cutting down Islam and the Quran, because whether you care to admit it or not,

you must convince of the authenticity of your Bible just as you would have us convince you on the Qur'an. why are you afraid to look the textual criticism that scholars are? it's not "cutting down", it's seeking the truth. a truth you are afraid of

there is a link between what comes before of God's word and what comes after.

we ARE trying to establish what IS God's Word. you must offer the same proof that you ask of us.

I don't mind hard questions about the Bible and my beliefs; sock it to me. But if you dish it out you should be able to take it as well.

Now I answered you questions look at the previous post.
Keep the peace bro
:)

:sl:

i KNOW that you wrote:

The Bible was written by men inspired and led by the Spirit of Truth the Holy Spirit in essence GOD

what specific men were "inspired and led by the Spirit of Truth the Holy Spirit in essence GOD" to write the Bible"?

you are comparing religions, thus you must look at your own as well, if not you would have to accept what we tell you about Islam as the truth. you don't. what historical evidence do you have for YOUR positions on your faith? that is what you are asking about ours, so you need to consider your faith the same way you are looking at ours. so i will be asking you for the evidence of your faith so that you can the value of both in a real comparison.

thus:

so, who was it that God specifically inspired to write Hebrews?

who was it that God specifically inspired to write Acts?

who was it that God specifically inspired to write Deuteronomy?

and now, who was it that God specifically inspired to write Timothy?

who was it the God inspired specifically to write the gospel now called John? and when was it written? and who can confirm this?

where specifically are these people sporting tongues of fire that can cure people with their shadow and raise people from the dead? according to you, these spirit would be with "you" ALWAYS!

:wa:

[Burninglight]

you are comparing religions, thus you must look at your own as well, if not you would have to accept what we tell you about Islam as the truth. you don't. what historical evidence do you have for YOUR positions on your faith? that is what you are asking about ours, so you need to consider your faith the same way you are looking at ours. so i will be asking you for the evidence of your faith so that you can the value of both in a real comparison.

thus:

so, who was it that God specifically inspired to write Hebrews?

who was it that God specifically inspired to write Acts?

who was it that God specifically inspired to write Deuteronomy?

and now, who was it that God specifically inspired to write Timothy?

who was it the God inspired specifically to write the gospel now called John? and when was it written? and who can confirm this?

where specifically are these people sporting tongues of fire that can cure people with their shadow and raise people from the dead? according to you, these spirit would be with "you" ALWAYS!

I thought I answered these question already. I said men inspired by the Holy Spirit, but I think you mean to say that this answer doesn't satisfy you. I can understand that, but don't say I didn't answer you. Why is that important who wrote it? The point is not who wrote it. The point is whether God said it or not. After all how can one prove ones faith. It is like trying to prove to an atheist that God exists? Faith is all the evidence Christians have. It 's all each of us have. You haven't ofended me. Are you ofended?

the pm system doesn't allow the same size posts as the forum, so it requires more work. i don't have that much time. also the work that i do is intended for others to use, so it will get posted anyway.

You are responding to a post that wasn't really direct at you, but of course you can comment about it, but don't take up an offense for someone else. I don't expect you to PM me, but you are always welcome to do so.

"try loving God's law more"

I do, I do, I do! I said that is what I do originally; so, why are you quoting my own words back to me if you are not trying to imply it is what I don't do??? If I can't get you to believe my personal testimony or things about me, how shall I convince you the Bible is God's word?

you must convince of the authenticity of your Bible just as you would have us convince you on the Qur'an. why are you afraid to look the textual criticism that scholars are? it's not "cutting down", it's seeking the truth. a truth you are afraid of

Every good point. Can you plz send me the link that explains the thing about what Muhammad said in the Al tabira? Did or didn't he say that in your own words as well? thanks!Here it is again:

"“I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

"But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have
not commanded him to speak . . . that prophet shall die."
~GOD (Deuteronomy18:20)^[1]

You want prove of the Bible's authenticity. This post is all I have at this time:

So this forum is on compartive religion. In the record of the Qur’an and the Bible we see some similarities and disagreements. Christian scholars say that though people have made corrupt translations of the Bible, the true Bible meaning has have always been available, and it has been preserved reliably with no significant errors. If someone did hypothetically corrupt all Bibles in Middle Ages as Muslims say, we could simply change it back. We know the original words because of the following reasons:

1. We have manuscripts of the New Testament dated c.127 A.D, c.150 A.D., and c.200 A.D., as well as recently released copies with the Dead Sea Scrolls dated before 100 A.D. You ask who wrote it? I don't know, but that doesn't stop me from believing.
2. We have 10,000 other manuscripts of the New Testament to compare. Scribal errors did occur, but with 10,000 manuscripts, we can track these errors. The evidence would be weaker, not stronger, if there had been a "Christian ‘Uthman" to burn them. Why would someone burn what is Allah's word if they didn't think it was corrupted? And if it were corrupted, how do you know the same corrupted verses didn't get put back in? If not corrupted why burn any of it. Very valuable documents were burned, why??????????
3. The early church writers (from 97/98 A.D. to 325 A.D.) referred to every single verse in the New Testament except around 17.
4. We have copies of the Greek translation of the Old Testament, Dead Sea Scrolls of almost all of the Old Testament dated at the time of Christ, and Christ’s use of Old Testament quotes. I don't care who wrote it. God preserved and allow it do be documented as His word or he would have interviened.
5. We have God’s promise that He will watch over and preserve His word, and that He will not let His followers be led astray. -Isa 55:10-11; 59:21; 1 Peter 1:24-25, Mt 24:35
6. As far as the Bible is concerned, Christian scholars are very keen to examine all the evidence and be as precise as possible in what the original wording was.
Christians and all seekers of truth should welcome questioning the reliability of today’s Bible. But rather than asking, "what is its reliability", one should also ask as I mentioned "what its reliability is being compared to."

Now PLZ answer these:
Do you believe man's power to corrupt God's word is greater than God power to preserve it? Do you believe God would allow His people to be without an uncorrupted version of His word for thousands of years until prophet Muhammad can come and set the record straight for all? And of course let us not forget the the prophet Joseph Smith who came to set the record straight for all mankind from what he received from angelic messengers? Mormons will tell us that Christianity & Islam has it all wrong and that the true word is the Book of Mormon.
I tell Mormons that come to me door that Joseph Smith doesn't pass the test of prophethood. A prophet must be clearly and unequivocally confirmed by preceeding prophets and or prophecy and not with something that has to be ambigously inferred. A prophet should never contradict the previous Scriptures. A prophet should give a prophecy that doesn't involve a 50% chance it could happen or he should do some miracle such as turn water to wine or rise the dead or heal the blind; Finally, a prophet should know the name of God

[Scimitar]

Falsified Hadeeth:

“I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

Response:

This is in fact such a weak and stupid argument made by some Christians , and they desperately and shamelessly use it to disprove the prophethood of Muhammed.
For starter, who is Tabari ?! Tabari was a HISTORIAN not a scholar, so he does not verify the narrations as we will read in the introduction of his book. Anyway, Islamic historians would simply compile all the known narrations about a certain event, regardless of how authentic or reliable each of those narrations were. They would copy the Isnads (chains of transmitters) into their books, in order that the Muhaditheen (scholars of Hadith) could determine which narration was Sahih/Hasan (authentic/good) and which was Dhaeef (weak) or even Mawdoo (fabricated). In other words, the historians compiled the narrations, and the Muhaditheen authenticated them. Therefore, based on the above, we find that Tareekh at-Tabari is simply a COLLECTION OF NARRATIONS on certain events; some of these narrations are ACCURATE, whereas others are NOT. The authenticity of each narration depends on the Isnad (chain of transmitters): if the narration was transmitted by reliable narrators, then it would be accepted as valid, but if it was transmitted by unreliable people, then the narration was to be disregarded. Tabari says in a disclaimer in the introduction of his book:

“I shall likewise mention those (narrators) who came after them, giving additional information about them. I do this so that it can be clarified whose transmission (of traditions) is praised and whose information is transmitted, whose transmission is to be rejected and whose transmission is to be disregarded…The reader should know that with respect to all I have mentioned and made it a condition to set down in this book of mine, I rely upon traditions and reports which have been transmitted and which I attribute to their transmitters. I rely only very rarely upon (my own) rationality and internal thought processes. For no knowledge of the history of men of the past and of recent men and events is attainable by those who were not able to observe them and did not live in their time, except through information and transmission produced by informants and transmitters. This knowledge cannot be brought out by reason or produced by internal thought processes. This book of mine may contain some information mentioned by me on the authority of certain men of the past, which the reader may disapprove of and the listener may find detestable, because he can find nothing sound and no real meaning in it. In such cases, he should know that it is not my fault that such information comes to him, but the fault of someone who transmitted it to me. I HAVE MERELY REPORTED IT as it was reported to me.(Tareekh at-Tabari, Vol.1, Introduction)” [ http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/islam/tabari ]

So this quote is a LIE against Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), not just that, but there were many lies invented by the hypocrites from among the Jews in order to REJECT prophet Muhammed. The people were certain that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the awaited one and to defend themselves, the hypocrites from the Jews invented such lies.
Inventing lies is not a big problem for the liars, this is their job. For example, the Prophet once recited some Surahs(verses from Quran) to the pagans in Makkah and prostrated to God Almighty at the end. The pagans who were speechless at the beauty of the recitation also prostrated. When the news spread to the leaders of the pagans, they were upset and were looking to take action against those pagans who had prostrated. In order to defend themselves, those pagans lied that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had said good things about their false gods. The lie was made to defend themselves.
If these Christians feel that the hypocrites were telling the truth and he really praised the pagan gods, then he must also accept the hypocrites around Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) who claimed the same for Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him).
Just like the hypocrites invented lies against the Prophets of the Old Testament (sinners, rapists, killers, incest performers, idol worshippers, nudists etc), they invented lies against Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) but the difference is that Muslims have rejected these hypocrites and have thrown them of their books .
Another thing, Muhammed peace be upon him was SINCERE, and he was called ”The Trustworthy” and “Truthful” before his prophethood, so how can he fabricate things on God, doesn’t make any sense, dose it ?!
Christians’ conclusion that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had Satan behind him just reminds one of the story of Lazarus when Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) raised him from death by the permission of God Almighty. The hypocrites around him stated that “the devil was behind him”. Such allegations have been labeled at Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as well and it is no surprise at all.

So this argument that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) openly said that he lied is just PATHETIC and CHILDISH as can be seen. Making use of the weakest of weak narrations is the job of the HYPOCRITES.

I bear witness there’s no god but Allah, and Muhammed is his final messenger..

And Allah knows the best..

Scimi

[Burninglight]

Falsified Hadeeth:

“I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

Thank you for answering this. I think I was told that but forgot. I hate all lying spirits. It is a falsified Hadeeth. Okay Sorry didn't mean to put any false thing here. I thought it was reliable coming from the Al Tabari. It should be pulled from the Al Tabari. I will also look into this more, I like to know why this is happening.

[Scimitar]

It happens because the Muslims were very stringent in collating all the hadeeth wherever they could get them. And them have them verified through Isnad (chain of narration) through this process, many hadeeth were known to be falsified or weak through chain of narration. However, those that were not included in the sahih collections, weren't burnt or destroyed - they were kept as examples of false or weak hadeeth - and done so because the Muslims have a system of recording everything... well they did back then. These days the Ummah has degraded somewhat - but that's because we don't have a Khilafah (akin to the papacy)

Anyhow,I have come across hadeeth like these before on various sites, where non Muslims have genuine queries about Islam but come across a stumbling block in the form of a falsified hadeeth which throws them right off.

Thank you bro BurningLight for having the courage to come to a predominantly Muslim forum and share your concerns. We do appreciate it.

Bro Scimi

[Burninglight]

Christians’ conclusion that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had Satan behind him just reminds one of the story of Lazarus when Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) raised him from death by the permission of God Almighty. The hypocrites around him stated that “the devil was behind him”. Such allegations have been labeled at Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as well and it is no surprise at all.

So this argument that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) openly said that he lied is just PATHETIC and CHILDISH as can be seen. Making use of the weakest of weak narrations is the job of the HYPOCRITES.

It is true that many evil things were said about Jesus, but when both Muslims and Christians look back, it is clear they were false charges against Jesus. But in Muhammad's case, it is clear to Muslims but not clear to Christians. If it is not clear to Christins that doesn't mean they are hypocrites; it just means they are not sure what is true or not about the stituation, but if it is clear to you, I will not ask you about it anymore, but I will continue to search out till it is clear for me as well.

[Scimitar]

Bro, if you have any more questions, just ask. We can point you to the authentic collections, etc, all to help clarify and promote understanding between us.

And yes, The Jews did spread a lot of false info about my dearly beloved Jesus Alaihis Salaam. This is typical of history, whereby the the corrupt leaders always try to disrepute the prophet that comes to them.

happened all through religious history. name a prophet that was accepted by everyone without this defamation attempt - the only exception is our ancestral father Adam Alahis Salaam.

Scimi

[Scimitar]

Few members here have been on board long enough to know our friend Snakelegs. Communication with her friend indicated that she had taken the shahadah before she died.

Inna lillahi wa'inna ilaihi Raji'oon - WOW, she attained purity and God took her, Allahu Akbar, Ar-Rahmaan Ar_Raheemu.

Scimi

[MustafaMc]

Inna lillahi wa'inna ilaihi Raji'oon - WOW, she attained purity and God took her, Allahu Akbar, Ar-Rahmaan Ar_Raheemu.

Scimi

Only Allah (swt) knows a persons heart. I am prayerful that she accepted Islam before her passing and that Allah (swt) will have mercy on her. http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1459640

[MustafaMc]

Tabari was a HISTORIAN not a scholar, so he does not verify the narrations as we will read in the introduction of his book. Anyway, Islamic historians would simply compile all the known narrations about a certain event, regardless of how authentic or reliable each of those narrations were.

Assalamu alaikum. Thank you brother. I didn't know that.

[Scimitar]

To be fair, neither did I until I decided to do some research on this matter.

Scimi

[YusufNoor]

I thought I answered these question already. I said men inspired by the Holy Spirit, but I think you mean to say that this answer doesn't satisfy you. I can understand that, but don't say I didn't answer you. Why is that important who wrote it? The point is not who wrote it. The point is whether God said it or not. After all how can one prove ones faith. It is like trying to prove to an atheist that God exists? Faith is all the evidence Christians have. It 's all each of us have. You haven't ofended me. Are you ofended?

you're still avoiding the question, you say, "men inspired by the Holy Spirit". i don't believe that is true at all. so i want to know the identities of these men. if you don't know who they are, you cannot make the case that "they" were "inspired by the holy spirit" because you don't know who "they" are. so please tell me who, specifically, wrote Hebrews.

You are responding to a post that wasn't really direct at you, but of course you can comment about it, but don't take up an offense for someone else. I don't expect you to PM me, but you are always welcome to do so.

my bad. i assumed what you sent me was stuff that already posted.

I do, I do, I do! I said that is what I do originally; so, why are you quoting my own words back to me if you are not trying to imply it is what I don't do??? If I can't get you to believe my personal testimony or things about me, how shall I convince you the Bible is God's word?

you have to examine the Bible to see if there is any evidence of it's truth. you start by figuring out who wrote the words and when they did so.

Every good point. Can you plz send me the link that explains the thing about what Muhammad said in the Al tabira? Did or didn't he say that in your own words as well? thanks!Here it is again:

"“I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

Prophets don't lie about God.

"But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak . . . that prophet shall die."
~GOD (Deuteronomy18:20)^[1]

You want prove of the Bible's authenticity. This post is all I have at this time:

So this forum is on compartive religion. In the record of the Qur’an and the Bible we see some similarities and disagreements. Christian scholars say that though people have made corrupt translations of the Bible, the true Bible meaning has have always been available, and it has been preserved reliably with no significant errors. If someone did hypothetically corrupt all Bibles in Middle Ages as Muslims say, we could simply change it back. We know the original words because of the following reasons:


i didn't say the Bible was corrupted in the middle ages. i believe that none of the Gospels date from the time of Jesus, so each contains corruption.

1. We have manuscripts of the New Testament dated c.127 A.D, c.150 A.D., and c.200 A.D., as well as recently released copies with the Dead Sea Scrolls dated before 100 A.D. You ask who wrote it? I don't know, but that doesn't stop me from believing.

you have bits and pieces of manuscripts, not manuscripts.

2. We have 10,000 other manuscripts of the New Testament to compare. Scribal errors did occur, but with 10,000 manuscripts, we can track these errors. The evidence would be weaker, not stronger, if there had been a "Christian ‘Uthman" to burn them. Why would someone burn what is Allah's word if they didn't think it was corrupted? And if it were corrupted, how do you know the same corrupted verses didn't get put back in? If not corrupted why burn any of it. Very valuable documents were burned, why??????????

when it comes to your manuscripts, no 2 agree.

3. The early church writers (from 97/98 A.D. to 325 A.D.) referred to every single verse in the New Testament except around 17.

after 300 years, they still didn't know them all!?

4. We have copies of the Greek translation of the Old Testament, Dead Sea Scrolls of almost all of the Old Testament dated at the time of Christ, and Christ’s use of Old Testament quotes. I don't care who wrote it. God preserved and allow it do be documented as His word or he would have interviened.

the only near complete scroll in the dead sea scrolls is Isaiah.

5. We have God’s promise that He will watch over and preserve His word, and that He will not let His followers be led astray. -Isa 55:10-11; 59:21; 1 Peter 1:24-25, Mt 24:35
6. As far as the Bible is concerned, Christian scholars are very keen to examine all the evidence and be as precise as possible in what the original wording was.

who, specifically wrote: Isaiah [each of the 3 parts], 1 Peter and Matthew?

Christians and all seekers of truth should welcome questioning the reliability of today’s Bible. But rather than asking, "what is its reliability", one should also ask as I mentioned "what its reliability is being compared to."


compare it's reliability to the Qur'an


Now PLZ answer these:
Do you believe man's power to corrupt God's word is greater than God power to preserve it? Do you believe God would allow His people to be without an uncorrupted version of His word for thousands of years until prophet Muhammad can come and set the record straight for all?

God had to allow the OT and NT to become corrupted, because it is.

And of course let us not forget the the prophet Joseph Smith who came to set the record straight for all mankind from what he received from angelic messengers? Mormons will tell us that Christianity & Islam has it all wrong and that the true word is the Book of Mormon.
I tell Mormons that come to me door that Joseph Smith doesn't pass the test of prophethood. A prophet must be clearly and unequivocally confirmed by preceeding prophets and or prophecy and not with something that has to be ambigously inferred. A prophet should never contradict the previous Scriptures. A prophet should give a prophecy that doesn't involve a 50% chance it could happen or he should do some miracle such as turn water to wine or rise the dead or heal the blind; Finally, a prophet should know the name of God

a link for you:

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/...n-history.html

we can discuss what the experts say.

an interesting debate for you. listen the the things that Bart Ehrman says [cuz you'll hear me say them]:



:wa:

[Burninglight]

It seems that I made an error and that you are not 'Brother Andrew' as I first thought. I didn't read any additional messages where you may have explained that. It also seems that you made the mistake of copying too much of what someone else wrote that you did not intend to send to me. This portion of your message in red used 'Koran' whereas you use 'Quran'. Though this clarifies the situation, it also shows where you have gotten your Islamic information. It is better that you are now trying to communicate directly with Muslims. I hope that you can overcome your bias and evaluate what is written impartially. I apologize and ask you to forgive me for my mistake.

To answer your question, I converted to Islam 30 years ago. I and my wife are the only Muslims in our entire families.

Oh, no problem. I am glad you now realize that I am not brother Andrew. I am glad you were able to verify looking at your PMs from me that what I said was sincere. I had no idea there were false Hadiths out there. I thought they were reliable and this was causing me confusion about Islam, but if Muhammad never said what was recorded in that Hadith than discussing or bringing it up is moot.

I am a little nervous now to bring up other troubling things I read not being sure if it is authentic or not about Islam. Such as is it true that Muhammad got mad because people asked too many questions like me lol. "The prophet was asked about things which he did not like, and when the questioner insisted, the Prophet got angry. (vol. 1, no. 92) The Prophet got angry and his cheeks or his face became red. (vol. 1, no. 91) "Allah has hated you...[for] asking too many questions." (vol. 2, no. 555; and vol. 3, no. 591, Bukhari's Hadith commenting on Muhammad's reaction to hostile questioners.) Is this true or not?"

[MustafaMc]

Oh, no problem. I am glad you now realize that I am not brother Andrew. I am glad you were able to verify looking at your PMs from me that what I said was sincere.

Sincere - free from dissimulation. Dissimulation - to hide under false appearance. No, you have not pretended to be other than someone who wants to expose Islam as a false religion akin to Mormonism. You obviously came here with a lot of preconceived ideas about Islam that apparently were derived from Christian sources that have striven to 'dig up dirt' on and to slander Islam. You are honest in that you lay out your questions and seem willing to read the answers. I am rather sensitive to attacks on Islam due to experiences in my life including listening to a 2-hour diatribe by Usama Dakdok, "Revealing the Truth about Islam" presented in the very country church that I grew up in.

Such as is it true that Muhammad got mad because people asked too many questions like me lol. "The prophet was asked about things which he did not like, and when the questioner insisted, the Prophet got angry. (vol. 1, no. 92) The Prophet got angry and his cheeks or his face became red. (vol. 1, no. 91) "Allah has hated you...[for] asking too many questions." (vol. 2, no. 555; and vol. 3, no. 591, Bukhari's Hadith commenting on Muhammad's reaction to hostile questioners.) Is this true or not?"

It is all in your objective or intention. If you are wanting to ask questions regarding what you have heard or read that presented Islam in a bad light and you want to verify if it was true and to get the Muslim perspective, then I hope you will find us more patient than we have been. From my perspective a reliable source for Islamic information is searchtruth.com where you can do a word search in the Quran or in the hadith. As far as the actual hadith you seem to have quoted, I found this that was similar, Narrated Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani: A man asked the Prophet about the picking up of a "Luqata" (fallen lost thing). The Prophet replied, "Recognize and remember its tying material and its container, and make public announcement (about it) for one year, then utilize it but give it to its owner if he comes." Then the person asked about the lost camel. On that, the Prophet got angry and his cheeks or his Face became red and he said, "You have no concern with it as it has its water container, and its feet and it will reach water, and eat (the leaves) of trees till its owner finds it." The man then asked about the lost sheep. The Prophet replied, "It is either for you, for your brother (another person) or for the wolf." (Book #3, Hadith #91)

and

Narrated Abu Musa: The Prophet was asked about things which he did not like, but when the questioners insisted, the Prophet got angry. He then said to the people, "Ask me anything you like." A man asked, "Who is my father?" The Prophet replied, "Your father is Hudhafa." Then another man got up and said, "Who is my father, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "Your father is Salim, Maula (the freed slave) of Shaiba." So when 'Umar saw that (the anger) on the face of the Prophet he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We repent to Allah (Our offending you)." (Book #3, Hadith #92)

Do you have a problem with Prophet Muhammad (saaws) becoming angry or impatient with incessant questioning over trivial matters? He was a human being like you and I, but with a much better character. He was fully human with emotions of grief, happiness, anger, etc. Allah (swt) even corrected him in Surah 'He Frowned' (Abasa) #80 for turning away from the blind man and giving his attention to the rich and powerful man.

The other hadith you mentioned is similar to:

Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba: The Prophet said, "Allah has forbidden for you, (1) to be undutiful to your mothers, (2) to bury your daughters alive, (3) to not to pay the rights of the others (e.g. charity, etc.) and (4) to beg of men (begging). And Allah has hated for you (1) vain, useless talk, or that you talk too much about others, (2) to ask too many questions, (in disputed religious matters) and (3) to waste the wealth (by extravagance). (Book #41, Hadith #591)

This hadith reminds me of the passage in Surah Al-Baqarah 2:67 And when Moses said unto his people: Lo! Allah commandeth you that you sacrifice a cow, they said: Do you make game (fun) of us? He answered: Allah forbid that I should be among the foolish! They said: Pray for us unto your Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He said, Verily she is a cow neither with calf nor immature; (she is) between the two conditions; so do that which you are commanded. They said: Pray for us unto your Lord that He make clear to us of what colour she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He said: Verily she is a yellow cow. Bright is her colour, gladdening beholders. They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. Lo! cows are much alike to us; and Lo! if Allah wills, we may be led aright. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a cow unyoked; she plowed not the soil nor watered the tilth; whole and without mark. They said: Now you bringest the truth. So they sacrificed her, though almost they did not.

Could you not sense the impatience building in Moses with the continuing questioning on details as opposed to the people simply going out and doing what they were instructed to do? A similar situation is that the asking of questions to the Prophet about small details makes the answer a duty to be followed by later generations; whereas, the leaving questions unasked would leave open some things to a persons own conscious. If you know anything about Islam, you will know that there are plenty of guidelines for our lives in following the Sunnah of Muhammad (saaws). I am sure you see that as legalism to the extreme, but Islam is a way of life in addition to a religion in the traditional sense.

[Burninglight]

Sincere - free from dissimulation. Dissimulation - to hide under false appearance. No, you have not pretended to be other than someone who wants to expose Islam as a false religion akin to Mormonism. You obviously came here with a lot of preconceived ideas about Islam that apparently were derived from Christian sources that have striven to 'dig up dirt' on and to slander Islam. You are honest in that you lay out your questions and seem willing to read the answers. I am rather sensitive to attacks on Islam due to experiences in my life including listening to a 2-hour diatribe by Usama Dakdok, "Revealing the Truth about Islam" presented in the very country church that I grew up in.

first you apologize and then you take it back. You do confuse me. This is a comparative religion section. I am a Christian. I am no more sceptical of Islam than you are of Christianity. You strike me as being too sensitive and even insecure. So attack me since you know best. How do you know that God cannot change me or you from deception oh mighty one???? Many have converted on both sides of the spectrum being on an opposing side. I am the minority on the forum and you are attempting to crush me with your clout. You know you have the advantage. Let me call it the way I see it. Instead of answering my questions you attack my intentions. If you have the truth, what do you fear friend?

I bring up Mormonism, because it is a real religion that battles against both Isalm and Christianity. My point is where to I draw the line with those that profess to be prophets receiving revelation from angelic beings. I sincerely am sceptical. I admitted that and have told you the truth and now you are back to judging me again.

Can we have a civil disscussion on comparative religion or not? I have listen to the debates with dr. Bart Erhman and dr. Evans. One thing the Catholics say I agree with. Jesus is true man from true man and true God from true God. I listen the Bart Ehrman debate; it seems to me that Dr. Evans pawned him. Ehrman states: "And here is the truth: Many of the books of the New Testament were written by people who lied about their identity, claiming to be a famous apostle — Peter, Paul or James — knowing full well they were someone else. In modern parlance, that is a lie, and a book written by someone who lies about his identity is a forgery."

This begs the question: “here is the truth.” I’m sorry, but extreme assertions like these require extreme evidence as proof that they are true. Yet Ehrman does not even try to offer any evidence let alone conclusive evidence. He simply states his position as “the truth.” Again, you cannot assume to be true the thing which you need to prove first. Fallacy. Lie.

Second, Ehrman expects us believe he has gotten inside the minds of the New Testament authors. He says they were conscious frauds, “knowing full well” what they did. But how in the world does Ehrman (or anyone else for that matter) have any idea what the New Testament authors knew in their minds? Again this is begging the question—and in a big way. It is a big lie. Ehrman strikes me as an atheistist Bible hack. If he attempts to butcher the Bible like that, what do you think he would do to the Quran? Like Dr. Evans said to put our faith in Jesus Christ is a sure foundation even though there are interpolations and translational errors it doesn't change the central theme of Scripture Jesus saves our souls.

Don't think that these scholars can't pick apart the Quran the way they do the Bible. It comes down to those that believe God exists and those that don't, and what we believe about God. Ehrman can shake hands with Dawkins the Atheist. Plz stop judging me. God is in control, not you, I am here for a reason! Maybe that reason is for me to convert or for you to revert. Allah knows best not MustafaMc.

To answer your question, yes, many questions can show doubt and that can frustrate. But that is all you had to say!

If I get another judgmental comment form a member on the forum I will stop posting again.

[Burninglight]

good night

[MustafaMc]

first you apologize and then you take it back. You do confuse me. This is a comparative religion section. I am a Christian. I am no more sceptical of Islam than you are of Christianity. You strike me as being too sensitive and even insecure. So attack me since you know best. How do you know that God cannot change me or you from deception oh mighty one???? Many have converted on both sides of the spectrum being on an opposing side. I am the minority on the forum and you are attempting to crush me with your clout. You know you have the advantage. Let me call it the way I see it. Instead of answering my questions you attack my intentions. If you have the truth, what do you fear friend?

No, I don't take it back as I am sorry that I misunderstood you were Brother Andrew. I apologize for getting angry with you. I do not see what I wrote as attacking you. I defined 'sincere' to show that I was in agreement that you are being sincere although at a time I thought otherwise. Neither do I see what I wrote as being false. You have shown that you came here with a clear bias against Islam, but you have also shown some indication of listening and expressed a willingness to modify your views. Yes, I have a strong opinion about both Islam and Christianity and some would call me opinionated, but only Allah (swt) is mighty and powerful. I have interacted with many Christians on this forum and I respect those who want to learn what Muslims really believe and their perspective on things, I respect those who want to establish inter-faith dialog and to increase mutual tolerance, I respect those who want to share their beliefs and attempt to correct what they see as misunderstandings by Muslims about the Christian faith. However, I don't believe this forum is the place for a Christian to try to convert Muslims away from the Truth of Islam. I don't believe this forum is the place for one to continually attack Islam and to spread false information or to misrepresent Prophet Muhammad, the Quran, or Islam in a light or way that is offensive to Muslims. There is a fine line between what you are doing and the later point, but I believe that you have legitimate questions and came here to listen to the Muslim perspective. I spent a lot of time in answering your question about the hadith where Prophet Muhammad (saaws) got angry over excessive questioning, but you chose not to reply to my perspective on the issue.^o)

I bring up Mormonism, because it is a real religion that battles against both Isalm and Christianity. My point is where to I draw the line with those that profess to be prophets receiving revelation from angelic beings. I sincerely am sceptical. I admitted that and have told you the truth and now you are back to judging me again.

If I wrote incorrectly, you are welcome to correct me. I am interested in knowing your intention and praise be to Allah (swt) if it is to convert. I hope I am not a stumbling block to that end. I can understand your being sceptical about Prophet Muhammad (saaws) recieving a message from Allah (swt) through Angel Gabriel in the same manner that I am highly sceptical about Paul recieving a revelation directly from God as he claims in Galatians. You accept Paul's claim and I accept Muhammad's (saaws).

Can we have a civil disscussion on comparative religion or not?

Yes, we can discuss as I think we better understand each other. Again you are welcome to criticize my approach and to correct me when I err.

I have listen to the debates with dr. Bart Erhman and dr. Evans. One thing the Catholics say I agree with. Jesus is true man from true man and true God from true God.

I have read his book 'Lost Christianities' and I found it to be honest and scholarly. I disagree that Jesus is 'true God from true God', but you are free to believe that. My responsibility as a Muslim is to share that Islam sees that as shirk, or the unforgiveable sin of associating partners with Allah (swt) if one dies in that state.

I listen the Bart Ehrman debate;

I am not really that interested in discussing Bart's views on the Bible. I didn't post the video.

Don't think that these scholars can't pick apart the Quran the way they do the Bible.

How can they refute that there is only one version of the Quran (in Arabic) for billions of Muslims that is the same as the Uthmani manuscripts in Turkey and Kazakstan, and when millions have memorized every letter of the Quran as revealed to Muhammad (saaws)?

It comes down to those that believe God exists and those that don't, and what we believe about God.

On this we agree.

Plz stop judging me. God is in control, not you, I am here for a reason! Maybe that reason is for me to convert or for you to revert. Allah knows best not MustafaMc.

Have I written incorrectly? By the way did you read my conversation with 'redhogg'?

To answer your question, yes, many questions can show doubt and that can frustrate. But that is all you had to say!

No, I also said that the questioning of the people of Moses about the cow to be slaughtered was an example of trying to evade the direction of the prophet. Some questioning of Prophet Muhammad (saaws) seems petty to me like asking him about a lost camel.

If you have more questions about Islam, please do.

If I get another judgmental comment form a member on the forum I will stop posting again.

Please, quote me where I was being judgmental and where that view was incorrect with the correct view. I believe that we can move forward with other questions you may have, but I am also interested in reading your reply to my comments here.

[Burninglight]

No, I don't take it back as I am sorry that I misunderstood you were Brother Andrew. I apologize for getting angry with you. I do not see what I wrote as attacking you. I defined 'sincere' to show that I was in agreement that you are being sincere although at a time I thought otherwise. Neither do I see what I wrote as being false. You have shown that you came here with a clear bias against Islam, but you have also shown some indication of listening and expressed a willingness to modify your views. Yes, I have a strong opinion about both Islam and Christianity and some would call me opinionated, but only Allah (swt) is mighty and powerful. I have interacted with many Christians on this forum and I respect those who want to learn what Muslims really believe and their perspective on things, I respect those who want to establish inter-faith dialog and to increase mutual tolerance, I respect those who want to share their beliefs and attempt to correct what they see as misunderstandings by Muslims about the Christian faith. However, I don't believe this forum is the place for a Christian to try to convert Muslims away from the Truth of Islam. I don't believe this forum is the place for one to continually attack Islam and to spread false information or to misrepresent Prophet Muhammad, the Quran, or Islam in a light or way that is offensive to Muslims. There is a fine line between what you are doing and the later point, but I believe that you have legitimate questions and came here to listen to the Muslim perspective. I spent a lot of time in answering your question about the hadith where Prophet Muhammad (saaws) got angry over excessive questioning, but you chose not to reply to my perspective on the issue.

Yes, I agree there is a fine line. I am interested learning about Islam. And I must adimit I cann understand your sentiments to a point, because I can sense mix feelings in myself so I do struggle with my presentation, but I do have more questions some are better that others. I don't just look at what favorable scholars say, because just as in Christianity, it is with any religion, you never get the full story from a subjective view point.

I look at Christianity through a critcal eye as well, and I have frustrated pastors; so try not to take my skepticism of Islam personally. Some Muslims encourage me to ask the hard questions and to sock it to you so to speak, but I don't treat you any different than I want to be treated. I think it is safe to say that I am not more interested in seeing you Christian than you are to see me Muslim. I can respect that about you; why can't you respect that about me as, well? That is where I think you are taking a judgmental position. As long as I am being civil like Bart Erham was about Christianity, what do you fear from comparing & contrasting Christianity and Islam? You once mentioned the term or phrase "enemy of Islam" Well, aren't all non believers enemies of God? Jesus said something to the effect you are either for me or against me. Anyone who does not embrace Islam is an enemy of Allah. If an enemy of Allah, than one is an enemy of Islam, the same goes for Christianity. However, we can love each other as brothers of humanity and should, but like it or not there are spiritual battles being waged. BTW, I did respond to your perspective.

[Burninglight]

1. Have I written incorrectly? By the way did you read my conversation with 'redhogg'?

   Incorrectly, yes & no. rehogg? No, what post or thread was that in?
   

   If you have more questions about Islam, please do.

   Yes, I do. Muslims seem to use inferences from the Bible to support Islam, but when something doesn't; it is deemed corrupted. Would you say that is fair? Next, I hear Muslims tell me like you say that there is only one version of the Quran and many tell me of its scientific strengths such as it containing scientifically accurate information about Embryology before man discovered it for himself. Muslims give conversion testimony as a result. However, all the information in the Quran regarding Embryology was already in print before the Quran was compiled and recompiled; for instance, research takes me to a Greek doctor named Galen, who lived of 150 AD. Next a Jewish doctor named Samuel ha-Yehudi who lived 150 AD. Finally, we have a Greek father of medicine Hippocrates who lived 400 BC.

Well, can you show me something in the Quran that was not already revealed or that was new information? Even pre- Islamic history shows that polytheism was the way of life; but the idea of one God wasn't anything new during Muhammad's time; the Jews and Christians were monotheistic before the Quran was revealed.

[Scimitar]

Professor Keith Moore on the scientific miracles of the Quran



There's a longer version with even more on it, but I didn't have time to search it. But it's there if you are interested.

With regard to embryology, you do realise that today we have laser scanners that can show us the microscopic images of embryonic development - but in those times there was absolutely no way to know this. The Quran explains the three stages of conception in immaculate detail using language that even a child can understand. A prime example is the word "mughdah" which is a "chewed like substance" for example - some spat out bubble gum or morsel of food. The actual tooth marks in the gum represent the shape of the embryo, and this analogy is just beautiful because it transcends all cultures and all language as the simplicity of the intended verse is understandable beyond doubt.

The Quranic Arabic is something amazing when understood in its correct context.

Scimi

[Burninglight]

There's a longer version with even more on it, but I didn't have time to search it. But it's there if you are interested.

With regard to embryology, you do realise that today we have laser scanners that can show us the microscopic images of embryonic development - but in those times there was absolutely no way to know this. The Quran explains the three stages of conception in immaculate detail using language that even a child can understand. A prime example is the word "alaq" which is a "chewed like substance" for example - some spat out bubble gum or morsel of food. The actual tooth marks in the gum represent the shape of the embryo, and this analogy is just beautiful because it transcends all cultures and all language as the simplicity of the intended verse is understandable beyond doubt.

The Quranic Arabic is something amazing when understood in its correct context.

Scimi

Thanks, I don't understand why this guy says that it wasn't discovered until centuries after Muhammad. As I mentioned, these embryological descriptions were in print before Muhammad started his minstry. Muslims say the idea of the "embryo developing through stages is a modern one, and that the Qur'an anticipated modern embryology by depicting differing stages. However, many ancient writers besides Galen taught that humans developed in different stages. In the Jewish Talmud, for instance, we learn that the embryo has 6 stages of development. Samuel ha-Yehudi was a 2nd century Jewish physician, and one of many with an interest in embryology. The embryo was called peri habbetten (fruit of the body) and develops as

1. golem (formless, rolled-up thing);
2. shefir meruqqam (embroidered foetus - shefir means amniotic sac);
3. 'ubbar (something carried);
4. v'alad (child);
5. v'alad shel qayama (noble or viable child) and
6. ben she-kallu chadashav (child whose months have been completed).

(Yet with the benefit of modern science as you mentioned), we now know that the formation of a human being is a seamless continuation from conception to birth, That's the reason for so much confusion today about abortion and embryo research. If we develop as a continuous process, it is impossible to draw hard-and-fast boundaries about when life starts." This doesn't seem to support the Qur'anic verse to which says (71:14) "When He created you by (divers) stages". It had already been said and documented as well. But all the documentation wasn't exactly correct by today's standards. So I am hard pressed to make this scientific connection work for me. You don't have to agree with me but can you at least understand the point I am trying to make?
PBUY

[MustafaMc]

Incorrectly, yes & no. rehogg? No, what post or thread was that in?

The link was in my 2nd PM to you. I would be interested in hearing what you think.

Yes, I do. Muslims seem to use inferences from the Bible to support Islam, but when something doesn't; it is deemed corrupted. Would you say that is fair?

I see your point. We accept as plausible what is consistent with the Quran and reject what is contrary to it. I can see how this seems inconsistent from your perspective.

Next, I hear Muslims tell me like you say that there is only one version of the Quran and many tell me of its scientific strengths such as it containing scientifically accurate information about Embryology before man discovered it for himself. Muslims give conversion testimony as a result. However, all the information in the Quran regarding Embryology was already in print before the Quran was compiled and recompiled; for instance, research takes me to a Greek doctor named Galen, who lived of 150 AD. Next a Jewish doctor named Samuel ha-Yehudi who lived 150 AD. Finally, we have a Greek father of medicine Hippocrates who lived 400 BC.

Well, can you show me something in the Quran that was not already revealed or that was new information? Even pre- Islamic history shows that polytheism was the way of life; but the idea of one God wasn't anything new during Muhammad's time; the Jews and Christians were monotheistic before the Quran was revealed.

The scientific miracles of the Quran is not something I have particularly studied, so I will refrain from answering.

[YusufNoor]

:sl:


just a brief bio on Ehrman, from Wiki:

Ehrman grew up in Lawrence, Kansas, and attended Lawrence High School, where he was on the state champion debate team in 1973.

He began studying the Bible and its original languages at the Moody Bible Institute and is a 1978 graduate of Wheaton College in Illinois. He received his PhD and M.Div. from Princeton Theological Seminary, where he studied under Bruce Metzger. He received magna cum laude for both his BA in 1978 and PhD in 1985.

In his books, he recounts his youthful enthusiasm as a born-again, fundamentalist Christian, certain that God had inspired the wording of the Bible and protected its texts from all error.[2] His graduate studies, however, eventually convinced him that one ought to acknowledge the contradictions in the biblical manuscripts rather than attempt to harmonize or reconcile discrepancies. He remained a liberal Christian for fifteen years but later became an agnostic after struggling with the philosophical problems of evil and suffering.[2]

i don't agree with all of Ehrman's conclusions, but i have all of his lectures from The Teaching Company on mp3, and most of them on dvd as well, and many of his books.

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/p...l.aspx?pid=150

you would be surprised to learn that when his works are reviewed by scholars, the generally make the statement that "this is nothing new." you see, the issues he talks about were realized by those who actually make translations.

my study [if you can call it that] of early Christianity shows gradual changes in "orthodoxy" usually in different "centers of power" heavily influenced by church leaders who had their own interpretations of Christian theology. but the changes Ehrman implies happened before, perhaps well before, Nicaea. the Gospel attributed to John, believed to have been penned around 95AD, clearly indicates a belief in Jesus as God at that time. [not that copies of John exist from that time, but that is the time believed]. it seems odd to try to place that at a later date. changes had to happen quickly, if the true apostles were martyred early it could help to explain how beliefs changed. like i've stated in another post somewhere, Christians were more concerned about converting, rather that formulating theology. this could help explain why it took so long for serious thought to be applied to matters of trinity and Godhead.



:wa:

[Burninglight]

The scientific miracles of the Quran is not something I have particularly studied, so I will refrain from answering.

Okay, that is fine if someone would care to answer it. Thanks anyway.

I see your point. We accept as plausible what is consistent with the Quran and reject what is contrary to it. I can see how this seems inconsistent from your perspective.

That makes me feel good that you can see my perspective whether you agree or not.

The link was in my 2nd PM to you. I would be interested in hearing what you think.

I will go back and look thanks

[Burninglight]

just a brief bio on Ehrman, from Wiki:

Thanks for sharing. BTW, Dr. Bart Erham does more damage of turning people away from God than Dr. Richard Dawkins. Let me tell you. If he could convince me, but he can't, that the Bible is false concerning the life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I would become agonist, but notice in all his debates online he doesn't say the historical Jesus wasn't crucified; there is historical evidence that happened. if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then all of Christianity is destroyed and we of all people are the most monstrous and sorry and miserable on the face of the earth.

I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . .

E. M. Blaiklock
Professor of Classics
Auckland University

[Scimitar]

Yes bro BurningLight, I see what you are getting at. But regarding this verse:

"When He created you by (divers) stages"

Tafsir Dr Mohsin: While He has created you in (different) stages [i.e. first Nutfah, then 'Alaqah and then Mudghah,

I think you should take a look at this:


NUTFAH
The Holy Qura’n points , in many verses , that the beginning of the progeny of Adam is from nutfah : ” He has created man from nutfah (a drop of mingled fluid ) ; yet behold ! he is an obvious opponent ..” (Surah A-Nahl ; 16 : Ayah 4 ) –” His companion said to him , while disputing with him : Do you disbelieve in Him (God) Who created you from dust, then from nutfah ( drop of mingled fluid) , then He fashioned you into a man” (Surah Al-kahf ; 18 : Ayah 37 ) — ” O people! if you are in doubt about he Resurrection, then surely We created you from dust, then from nutfah (a drop of mingled fluid) , ….” ( Surah Al-Hajj ; 22 : Ayha 5) — ” And Allah did create you from dust; then from nutfah (a drop of mingled fluid ) …”(Surah Fatir; 35 : Ayah 11) — ” Does not man see that We have created him from nutfah ( a drop of mingled fluid ) ; yet behold ! he is an obvious opponent ..” ( Surah Ya-Seen; 36 : Ayah 77) — ”And that He did create the two sexes ; the male and female * from nutfah when it is poured forth ” (Surah An-Najm ; 53 Ayahat 45 & 46 ) — ” From what thing did He created him * From nutfah ( a drop of mingled fluid ) He created him , then immediately planned (programmed ) him. “. (Surah Abasa ; 80 : Ayahat 18 & 19 ).

From the previous verses including the term nutfah , it becomes clear that the creation of the progeny of Adam (Who is created from the clay or dust ) is from the nutfah ( a drop of fluid) . To know what is the meaning of the term nutfah and its description in Arabic, we can say that the term nutfah in Arabic language has several meanings , of which a small drop or a little amount of fluid.

The term nutfah , as it was explained by prophet Mohammad himself , peace and blessings be upon him , from his haith , when he was asked about creation of children by one of Jews : ” O, Jew , it is created from both ; from a man nutfah and from a woman nutfah ” ( This hadith was narrated in Musnad Ahmad, volume 1, page 465) . To explain this hadith , it is clear from the answer of prophet Mohammad , peace and blessings be upon him , that nutfah is the part by which the man shares in creation of a child and also nutfah is the part by which the woman shares in this creation . Thus , according to this hadith , it is clear that creation of a child occurs from both male and female and that the term nutfah is applicable to both male and female , not only male.

In one verse that describes the creation of progeny of Adam :” Then He made his progeny of an extract , of a little weak fluid ” (Surah As-sajda ; 32 : Ayah 8 ) , this verse means that creation occurs as an extract from that little weak fluid , in Arabic the word extract is the best of that fluid . Despite Qura’n does not mention in the previous verse , to whom belongs this fluid , it could be understood that this fluid originates from both sexes , not only one of them , that meaning could be appreciated from another verse of Qura’n ; ” O mankind ! We created you from a male and a female ..” (Surah Al-Hujraat ; 49 : Ayah 13) , in this verse , Allah , the – Al-mighty , Said that He Have created mankind from both sexes , the male and female , thus no one can longer say that Qura’n states that creation is from male only .

Now , after science have proven that creation is through fusion of a part from the man ( that is the sperm) and a part from the woman (that is the ovum) , Isn’t this the man nutfah and the woman nutfah given in the above hadith without any contradiction ?? Thus , it is possible to apply , the term nutfah to both the sperm (man nutfah) and the ovum (woman nutfah) respectively . In another hadith of Prophet Mohammad , He said : ” Not from all the fluid , the child will form , and if Allah Wants to create any thing , nothing can prevent Him to do so ..” (this is a part of a long Hadith narrated by Muslim , 2: 1064 ) , the meaning is clear as not from all the fluid means from only a little part of it. In essence , nutfah is source of the progeny of Adam.

ALAQAH:

The alaqah stage mentioned in Qura’n and its interpretations

, is considered the most controversial stage of the developing embryo that provoke objections among deniers of the scientific miracles of Qura’n and Sunnah in describing the stages of embryonic development. Some of these objectors , depending upon dictionaries of Arabic language , old commentators and ancient Arab poets , that alaqah means the clotted blood and according to this view , the embryo duringalaqah stage is in the form of a clotted blood and this is a scientific error because there is no developmental stage of the embryo in which it is an clotted blood. Another group of objectors , depending upon the explanation given by professor Keith Moore that the embryo at 24 days is like a leech of water pools , although in the lateral view of the developing umbilicus (which is a part of the embryo) it is as large as the part similar to the leech . A third group of objectors describe that the explanation of alaqah to indicate that the embryo is suspended to the uterus was accurately described by Aristotle on the 4th century B.C. and he mentioned the suspension of the embryo in the uterus !! Thus, there are three claims against alaqah described in Quran .. What is the answers to all these false claims???

To answer these claims, it will be easier to divide the answer into 3 parts :

1- The appropriate meaning of alaqah:

The word alaqah in Arabic language has several meanings , the first one is ” attached and hanging to something ” , which a derivative of the Arabic verb “alaqa ” .

When we review the scientific description of the embryo at the early developmental stages in modern embryology , it will be clear that the meaning of ” attached and hanging” that indicated by the word the alaqah , is in complete accordancewith the embryo at this stage of its life . How??

At the blastocyst stage ,

after rupture of the zona pellucida on about the 5th day , the inner cell mass (which will form the embryo in the future) is suspended inside the blastocyst and attached to uterine endometrium . The adherence of the blastocyst to the endometrium and begining of implantation , as it have been described , ends the nutfah stage and begins the alaqah stage.At about , 7 and half days , the blastocyst has been superficially implanted in the uterine endometrium , and the process of implantation is complete at day 9 ( or 10 ) after fertilization .

The last point of the blastocyst to enter the endometrium is the abembryonic pole and the defect in the endometrium at the site of entry is closed by a fibrin clot. At the 11th (or 12th ) day after fertilization , the blastocyst is completely implanted in the uterine stroma and is causing a slight protrusion into the uterine cavity with complete covering of the initial defect in the endometrium by the endometrial epithelium, through the growth of the tissue surrounding it.

When any

one study the photos and diagrams accompanying this explanation , it will be clearly appreciated that the part of the nutfahwhich will form the embryo is the inner cell mass . That is a mass of condensed cells that are suspended inside the blastocyst and changed later on into a flat plate of 2 rows of cells that , after the formation of amniotic cavity , become the embryonic disc , that is also suspended inside chorionic vesicle and connected to its wall by the connecting stalk.

According to that , the accuracy of an “alaqah” or a meaning indicating suspension or hanging of the embryo , as described in Qura’n becomes clearly appreciated and is in complete accordance with modern embryology. This answers all who are doubting the miraculous description of Qura’n.

The description of an alaqah to denote hanging of embryo to the uterus by the umbilical cord is considered a scientific error , because the embryo remains suspended by umbilical cord until the end of pregnancy and the alaqah stage , as we previously described , ends about 24th or 25th day , when somites (that are characteristic features of the next stage , the mudghah ) begin to appear on the embryo.

Accordingly, we can describe that creation of man from an alaqah or alaq as reported in Qura’n , refers to his creation from that suspended cellular mass ( or in embryological terms , the inner cell mass and all cells derived from it until the embryonic disc is formed ) that fits the description of alaqah to mean attached and hanging to something …

2- Alaqah is not a clotted blood nor a leech:

As regard the explanation of alaqah to be a clotted blood or a leech , this interpretation is wrong and is completely refused , even if given by Muslim scholars , commentators and non-specialized scientists. We should not absolutely assign misconceptions of ancient commentators and non specialized scientists to be faults of the great Qura’n . Why?? Suppose that someone saw an animal passing before him and it was dark that he could not clearly see the animal , he guessed that it was a dog as it is the animal familiar to him and accordingly he reported that he had seen a dog . Then , another person saw the same animal in the same darkness , and guessed that it was a fox as it is the animal familiar to him and accordingly he reported that he had seen a fox . At last , a third person having a source of light and saw the same animal and clearly identified it and reported that he had seen a wolf ! Which one of the three persons is telling the truth??

In fact, no one can falsify the first or second person or consider them wrong , the absence of clear vision made them believe that they were telling the truth , despite it was not in accordance with the true description . On contrary , the last person , who had a method that enabled him to clearly see and identify the animal , it is logical that what he had reported is truth and is in accordance with reality…

If any one applied the previous presumptive story to the opinions of ancient commentators of Qura’n for the verses which deal with scientific issues , no one can deny their explanation that they had reached depending upon the data available at their time .

Nowadays , after the availability of atool that could give us a better understanding of the scientific verses of Qur’an , that is the great advances in experimental sciences , we can refuse the old interpretation and introduce the new one that is in accordance with scientific facts . This disagreement with ancient commentators is not wrong and do not offend Quran , which is the word of Allah , that could not be approached by falsehood ; as Allah , the Almighty , Said about Qura’n :“ Falsehood cannot come at it from before it or from behind it. (It is) a revelation from the Wise, the Praised one ” (Surah Fussilat ; 41 : Ayah 42) .

Thus , it is not logical to consider the mis-understanding of older commentators or the inaccurate translations of the verses of Qura’n by translators who are not fluent in Arabic language , to be an evidence to the presence of scientific errors in Qura’n , as alleged by the enemies to this great religion …

Alaqah is not a leech

Now , we come to those who described the embryo to be similar to a leech , including the book titled ” Embryo and Qura’n” that was issued by the international commission of scientific signs in Qura’n and Sunnah which was the reference to this description. The similarity to a leech depended upon comparing the side view of a leech to a longitudinal section in an embryo , however , the comparison in this way is not scientifically accurate . Despite the noble aim of those Muslim scholars, in their trial to prove that the embryo during alaqah is similar in shape to the leech , to make all the meanings of the term alaqah in Arabic coincide with description of embryo at this time , yet this description was unfortunately scientifically incorrect due to the following reasons :

First ; a section in an embryo could not give an idea about its shape , as changing the direction of the section would change the resulting shape in the section produced.

Second ; for sound comparison , sections in both leech and embryo , should be the same and this was not done.

Third ; the most important one , there is no stage at all in embryo development where the embryo is similar to a leech , so those who claim this similarity should revise first the sound knowledge before unfairly sticking such wrong data to the holy Qura’n…

However , it is possible to accept that the embryo at alaqahis similar in behavior , which is very important , not in shape or appearance to a leech living in water ponds and attaching itself to animals and thrives on their blood . If any one review the embryo during the period of alaqah in modern embryology , he will find it to be in the form of a flat disc, being bathed from above and below with fluid in both amniotic cavity and yolk sac , and receiving its initial nourishment via diffusion from the yolk sac and later from the maternal blood .

Thus , it is stressed here that the embryo is similar to a leech only in behavior , and this point was clarified to prevent the mis-understanding or the faulty interpretation of the verses to be unfairly attributed to Qura’n , which could give a chance to the enemies of this religion to overcome it…

Alaqah is not a blood clot

As regard the description of alaqah to be a clotted blood , this is also another meaning of the term alaqah in Arabic that was, unfortunately used in the books of interpretations of Qura’n and in most translations of Qura’n , depending upon Arabic dictionaries and ancient Arabic poets where an alaqah denotes the blood in general or the thick clotted blood .

According to these meanings , the objectors to Qura’n miracles claim that the embryo in alaqahis in the form of a clotted blood which is a scientific error of Qura’n , as there is no stage of embryo development in which it is a clotted blood . This view was also reported in the book titled ” Embryo and Qura’n” , issued by the international commission of scientific signs in Qura’n and Sunnah , and also in all sites that copied from this book , probably, to approximate the meaning of clotted blood to the embryo at alaqah period. To explain that , it was that during alaqah the primitive cardiovascular system is developing in the intra-embryonic mesoderm ( between the two layers of the embryonic disc ) .

Scientifically , at this time ( about day 21) , the primitive cardiovascular system is in the form of 2 endothelial tubes , called dorsal aortae, one on each side of the developing notochord . In the same time, primitive blood vessels are developing in the mesoderm of the yolk sac , called the vitelline vessels , in mesoderm of the wall of the chorionic vesicle , called chorionic vessels, and in the mesoderm of the connecting stalk , called the umbilical vessels . The 2 dorsal aortae are bent cranially to join the cranial end of heart tube ( the future heart ) and are connected caudally with the umbilical arteries that pass through the umbilical cord to reach the placenta. Therefore , the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs , during this period of the alaqah stage , is similar to a mass of clotted blood.

The previous interpretation is more suitable to the later part of the alaqah period , as the primitive cardiovascular system is developing and the aforementioned the primitive blood vessels are like a closed network containing blood which, though in a fluid state , it does not circulate until the end of the 3^rd week ( as the primitive heart begins to beat with the start of the 4 ^thweek , when the blood circulation begins). The primitive cardiovascular system could not be seen by naked eye , and this minute details were not known except recently . Moreover ,suppose that pregnancy have been terminated at this stage , and this conceptus was aborted from the uterus , What would be seen ? only pieces of damaged tissues and clotted parts of blood!!

Although the above facts about the development of the cardiovascular system are scientifically correct , yet the assumption that the embryo during alaqah is in the form of a clotted blood is completely refused . This refusal depends upon the fact that the word alaqah in Arabic has several meanings ,one of them is a clotted blood , which is not suitable in use in describing the stages of embryo development . Therefore , the most accurate and suitable meaning to alaqah , as we have described above , is attached and hanging to something , which is also a meaning to alaqah in Arabic language.

At last , a word to all who are against the scientific miracles of Qura’n in the description of embryonic stages , Allah , the Almighty , Said : ” O People of the scripture (Jews and Christians) why do you clothe (combine) truth with falsehood , and conceal the truth while you know (the truth of prophet-hood of Muhammad in your scriptures “ ( Surah Al-Imran ; 3 : Ayah 71) ; He also Said : “…..And those who disbelieve (in Allah), dispute with falsehood in order to refute the truth thereby , and they assume My signs (miracles) and My warnings (to torture them) as a jest “ (Surah Al-Kahf ; 18 : Ayah 56 ).

MUGDHAH

Some objectors and deniers to the scientific miracles of Qura’n in

describing stages of embryonic development , claim that the term mudghah used by Qura’n to describe the embryo is vague . Moreover , the description of mudghah as a little piece of meat of a size that can be chewed , was not known before and it was lately introduced due to the presence of somites on the surface of developing embryo that simulate the teeth imprints on chewed gums. They claim that this is not only an imaginary interpretation but also incorrect , because for an embryo to be in the size of a chewed piece of meat ( size reaching about 20-30 milliliters ) one should wait till the embryo is 8 weeks old to fulfill the meaning of mudghah , whereas at the time alleged to be the duration of mudghah (26-27 days) the embryo’s size is not more than 4 millimeters.. How to answer these claims and refute them??

To answer this false claim , the length of the embryo reaches 10 -13 millimeters at the end of mudghah , which nearly equals the size of a piece of meat of a size that can be chewed (during the preceding stage ; alaqah , the embryo’s size does not exceed 3.5 millimeters which is too small to be chewed). As regard the external appearance , it is noted that during the early part ofmudghah , the presence of somites makes the embryo similar in shape to a chewed piece of gums that carries the imprints of teeth upon it which corresponds in meaning to the first meaning of mudghah : “something that has been chewed by the teeth” . However , this does not mean at all that the embryo is created from gums or similar substances .

This was only explanatory example to show that the smallest size of substance that can be chewed equals the size of that small piece of gum..

The term mudghah that was used by the holy Qura’n , is not vague as objectors claim , on the contrary it is a very expressive and amazing in describing the embryo at this stage , and this was explained in the page of “description of mudghah” when comparing the meaning of mudghah in Arabic and in modern embryology.

When Qura’n was revealed, it was impossible to observe the embryo without special instruments which were not even available at that time. Moreover , the claim that Qura’n , as alleged by some objectors and deniers , was copied from the medicine of Greek , is not true , simply because human knowledge at that time did not have such a description to the stages of embryo similar to the accurate description documented in Qura’n, that is completely in accordance with the facts of modern embryology.

Who gave Muhammad , peace and blessings be upon him , such accurate knowledge about embryos that do not exceed one centimeter ?? It was extremely hard to study the aborted embryos at that time , as they are in the form tiny pieces in the blood that is expelled with them. Furthermore, it was not known in the past that such blood contained an abortus, due to the fact that it was not possible to detect a pregnancy within the first weeks during these embryonic stages. These are signs from Allah , the Almighty , Who Said : ” These are the signs (miracles) of Allah , We recite them to you in truth ; and verily you are one of the messengers” ( Surah Al-Baqara ; 2 : Ayah 252) , also He said : ” Say : O People of the scripture (Jews and Christians) why do you disbelieve in the signs (miracles) of Allah , and Allah is a witness of what you do ” ( Surah Al-Imran ; 3 : Ayah 98.

Source: http://www.medicine4faith.net

I hope this was useful to you bro BurningLight,

Bro Scimi

[MustafaMc]

Yes, I agree there is a fine line. I am interested learning about Islam.

I am glad that you are learning about Islam from Muslims.:statisfie

I think it is safe to say that I am not more interested in seeing you Christian than you are to see me Muslim. I can respect that about you; why can't you respect that about me as, well?

Believe me, I fully appreciate and respect your desire to see me saved from the Hellfire in the same manner that I have this desire for you.

As long as I am being civil like Bart Erham was about Christianity, what do you fear from comparing & contrasting Christianity and Islam?

You have been civil and respectful. I don't fear discussing religion with you, rather I welcome discussions like this with people who use a civil approach. :statisfie

You once mentioned the term or phrase "enemy of Islam" Well, aren't all non believers enemies of God? Jesus said something to the effect you are either for me or against me. Anyone who does not embrace Islam is an enemy of Allah. If an enemy of Allah, than one is an enemy of Islam, the same goes for Christianity. However, we can love each other as brothers of humanity and should, but like it or not there are spiritual battles being waged.

Wasn't that 'for me or against me' a quote of George W. Bush?

No, I don't see you as an 'enemy of Islam' (though for a moment I did, hence my anger); however I see Satan, Pamella Geller, Terry Jones, Usama Dakdok, The Florida Family Association and Brother Andrew as enemies of Islam. Christians and Jews are not my enemies by the fact that they believe and practice their religion as they do. As a Muslim I am supposed to be tolerant toward them and in an Islamic state they are to be protected from oppression. My spiritual struggle is not with you, but rather Satan and his minions. I have a responsibility to share the message of Islam with you as I am sure you feel a responsibility to share the message of Christianity with me. The guidance to the straight way comes only from God.

[YusufNoor]

Thanks for sharing. BTW, Dr. Bart Erham does more damage of turning people away from God than Dr. Richard Dawkins. Let me tell you. If he could convince me, but he can't, that the Bible is false concerning the life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I would become agonist, but notice in all his debates online he doesn't say the historical Jesus wasn't crucified;

i believe i stated that i am not in complete agreement with Mr Ehrman. :p

there is historical evidence that happened. if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then all of Christianity is destroyed and we of all people are the most monstrous and sorry and miserable on the face of the earth.

I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . .

E. M. Blaiklock
Professor of Classics
Auckland University

:sl:

OK Mr Historian, please provide us with any historical contemporaneous evidence you have that Jesus, pbuh, was crucified. if you quote somebody, please give their name, when their statement was written and the evidence that you have that they witnessed this event.

we'll look at it historically!

:wa:

[Periwinkle18]

May Allah open ur heart and guide u towards the right path ameen :)

[Burninglight]

OK Mr Historian, please provide us with any historical contemporaneous evidence you have that Jesus, pbuh, was crucified. if you quote somebody, please give their name, when their statement was written and the evidence that you have that they witnessed this event.

we'll look at it historically!

lol, I am not the historian, but I will have to get back to you on this; I need to research a little more.

Wasn't that 'for me or against me' a quote of George W. Bush?

lol, Bush??, I am not too happy about him. if he said that I don't know, but Jesus did.

No, I don't see you as an 'enemy of Islam' (though for a moment I did, hence my anger); however I see Satan, Pamella Geller, Terry Jones, Usama Dakdok, The Florida Family Association and Brother Andrew as enemies of Islam.

Oh, good because I don't know brother Andrew; I wrote him once to find out where he gets his info, but he never responded; that was the end of that. People say things that sound reputable, and they give sources; so, I don't know, and I ask is it true? I have never done so much research in my life before. I am asking God why is truth so hard to find?

[Burninglight]

May Allah open ur heart and guide u towards the right path ameen

Thank you I want God my one true Creator to guide my heart to the right path. I wish the same for you too
:)PBUY

[YusufNoor]

Thanks for sharing. BTW, Dr. Bart Erham does more damage of turning people away from God than Dr. Richard Dawkins. Let me tell you. If he could convince me, but he can't, that the Bible is false concerning the life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I would become agonist, but notice in all his debates online he doesn't say the historical Jesus wasn't crucified; there is historical evidence that happened. if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then all of Christianity is destroyed and we of all people are the most monstrous and sorry and miserable on the face of the earth.

I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . .

E. M. Blaiklock
Professor of Classics
Auckland University

:sl:

why become agnostic? that doesn't seem logical. you, as a Christian, see the problems with all of the "churches" but you still believe in Jesus, pbuh. well...SO DO WE! we believe Jesus, pbuh , is IN FACT the Jewish Messiah! we also believe he will return, that's what you believe as well. so how do you determine what to believe about Jesus, pbuh?

you look for authentic sources! there are no contemporaneous eyewitness accounts. here's the lowdown on the Gospels:

Mark: written sometime between 65 and 75AD. no one knows who authored it. but even still at this late date, there is no eyewitness, or written, account of a resurrected Jesus, pbuh. you see, Mark ends at:

16:6 “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”

8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

reading further in the NIV, you see:

[The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]

9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.

12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.

14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

the ending of Mark is an addition as testified BY CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS!

Matthew and Luke [both anonymous] are believed to have been written around 85AD. but think of the year. remember, most of the Apostles are always shown as being OLDER than Jesus, pbuh, who had to have been born around 6-4BC. any living apostles would have been 90 plus! a wee bit fishy...

now take a look at John [again, anonymous]. this is pretty much the definitive Jesus IS God Gospel, but it was written until around 95AD! we can safely assume all of the Apostles are dead and so without any eyewitnesses remaining, Jesus BECOMES God!

you can call it the "evolution of Christology" if you please.

so, if we have no authentic eyewitness sources, we must find some kind of revelatory accounts; we need someone sent by God, thru the "Holy Spirit" you would say. well, that's what we are telling you! God sent Gabriel [Holy Spirit] to Muhammad, pbuh! we believe most of what you believe about Jesus, pbuh. he performed many miracles, even raising the dead. he is the Messiah, and he will return!

now where we differ, is the LAW. Jesus, pbuh, "said" not one jot or tittle would pass away, Paul says NO LAW. if there were to be no law, wouldn't Jesus, especially if you think he is God, wouldn't he have mentioned that? why did Jesus, pbuh, make Peter the head of the Church if Paul was just going to destriy his work? did Jesus, pbuh, say, "here are the keys to the kingdom, give them to Saul when you see him? did he?

we HAVE the LAW! even the 10 commandments; it looks like 9, but it's 10! i'll explain in a later post, in sha'a Allah.

ponder that for now...

:wa:

sam

[Burninglight]

why become agnostic? that doesn't seem logical. you, as a Christian, see the problems with all of the "churches" but you still believe in Jesus, pbuh. well...SO DO WE! we believe Jesus, pbuh , is IN FACT the Jewish Messiah! we also believe he will return, that's what you believe as well. so how do you determine what to believe about Jesus, pbuh?

you look for authentic sources! there are no contemporaneous eyewitness accounts. here's the lowdown on the Gospels:

Mark: written sometime between 65 and 75AD. no one knows who authored it. but even still at this late date, there is no eyewitness, or written, account of a resurrected Jesus, pbuh. you see, Mark ends at:

16:6 “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”

8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

reading further in the NIV, you see:

[The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]

9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.

12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.

14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

the ending of Mark is an addition as testified BY CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS!

Matthew and Luke [both anonymous] are believed to have been written around 85AD. but think of the year. remember, most of the Apostles are always shown as being OLDER than Jesus, pbuh, who had to have been born around 6-4BC. any living apostles would have been 90 plus! a wee bit fishy...

now take a look at John [again, anonymous]. this is pretty much the definitive Jesus IS God Gospel, but it was written until around 95AD! we can safely assume all of the Apostles are dead and so without any eyewitnesses remaining, Jesus BECOMES God!

you can call it the "evolution of Christology" if you please.

so, if we have no authentic eyewitness sources, we must find some kind of revelatory accounts; we need someone sent by God, thru the "Holy Spirit" you would say. well, that's what we are telling you! God sent Gabriel [Holy Spirit] to Muhammad, pbuh! we believe most of what you believe about Jesus, pbuh. he performed many miracles, even raising the dead. he is the Messiah, and he will return!

now where we differ, is the LAW. Jesus, pbuh, "said" not one jot or tittle would pass away, Paul says NO LAW. if there were to be no law, wouldn't Jesus, especially if you think he is God, wouldn't he have mentioned that? why did Jesus, pbuh, make Peter the head of the Church if Paul was just going to destriy his work? did Jesus, pbuh, say, "here are the keys to the kingdom, give them to Saul when you see him? did he?

we HAVE the LAW! even the 10 commandments; it looks like 9, but it's 10! i'll explain in a later post, in sha'a Allah.

ponder that for now...

I would be agnostic, because...Look this is disturbing stuff I have to do more study. I don't even know if this true; it could be from a Christian hate site. God will have to lead me on what I should say write and do. There is distrubing things written about the Bible and the Quran. If Christ is not raised from the dead than I have wasted most of my life. That is not something to wink at. I am not blaming you. Peter minstered to the Jews and Paul to the gentiles. All the law was fufilled through Christ with His death on the cross. Now through Christ we have our restl He is our Sabbath rest, If we love God with all our heart soul and mind and our neighbor as ourself, we fufill all the law and the prophets. I will look into the Christ's death and resurrection. That is the heart of Christianity not Peter or Paul

[YusufNoor]

I would be agnostic, because...Look this is disturbing stuff I have to do more study. I don't even know if this true; it could be from a Christian hate site. God will have to lead me on what I should say write and do. There is distrubing things written about the Bible and the Quran. If Christ is not raised from the dead than I have wasted most of my life. That is not something to wink at. I am not blaming you. Peter minstered to the Jews and Paul to the gentiles. All the law was fufilled through Christ with His death on the cross. Now through Christ we have our restl He is our Sabbath rest, If we love God with all our heart soul and mind and our neighbor as ourself, we fufill all the law and the prophets. I will look into the Christ's death and resurrection. That is the heart of Christianity not Peter or Paul

:sl:

hate site? no, it is all available in Christian Bibles and reference books. that is why iy shocked Bart Ehrman so much. MOST educated church leaders know all of this. they don't tell "their flocks" using the excuse that they are "babes in Christ" and that it would weaken their faith.

[Protestant]Professor Luke Timothy Johnson tells 2 amazing stories in his course, The Story of the Bible [available from The Teaching Company]:
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/c....aspx?cid=6252

the first is that when Catholic leaders were first dealing with the reformation, at first there was little concern. Many Protestants were calling for "sola sriptora", religion based solely on the Bible. Catholic leaders figured once they realized the condition of the scriptures, they would have to return because the Popes claimed direct descendancy from Peter and Paul.

the second involve the "trinity" verse. when Humanist Erasmus first translated the New Testament, he quoted I John 5:7/8 as:

7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

Catholic leaders were furious as they are a trinity based church. they demanded the he put it back. his response was that he had reviewed nearly 100 manuscripts and NONE of them contained the verse. if they wanted him to include the verse, they would have to produce a manuscript with verse in it. that is just what they did, Erasmus, fearing the inquisition, inserted it back. that is why you will read in NIV study Bibles, the following footnote:

Footnotes:

1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

source example:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...05&version=NIV

source example for Mark 16 footnote:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...16&version=NIV

as you can see, these are Christian Bible resources. you can go to a bookstore or library and open a Zondervan NIV Study Bible and see those notes for yourself.

what for me is amazing about this is that as a consequence of this, that Christians were STILL trying to determine what should or should not be in the Bible in the 14th Century is that, even though the Qur'an was revealed nearly 600 years AFTER the authentic Injeel [the true Gospel of Jesus, pbuh], the Qur'an was in completed form nearly 7 centuries BEFORE the Bible!

now which does it seem that God provided protection for? the Bible? or the Qur'an!

Brother, we are only inviting you to the truth! there is only One God, not 3 in 1, or 1 in 3! and Muhammad, pbuh, IS a Messenger of God, just as Jesus,pbuh was!

can't you now see the evidence for the truth? you, if you wanted, could finally realize that your search for the TRUE "church" of Jesus has finally come to fruition. PLEASE join us!

:wa:

sam

[MustafaMc]

Mark: written sometime between 65 and 75AD. no one knows who authored it. but even still at this late date, there is no eyewitness, or written, account of a resurrected Jesus, pbuh. you see, Mark ends at:

Assalamu alaikum, Brother. Have you considered the significance of this date relative to the destruction of Jerusalem and the turmoil that must have existed at that time? Jerusalem and the immediate surrounding area is the heart of where Jesus (as) preached and it is where the disciples resided as evidenced by Paul in Galatians. Could it be that the 4 gospels were written by followers of Paul again as one may interpret from Galatians?

Imagine for a moment a hypothetical parallel between the 1st century of Christianity and of Islam if the Muslims were annihlated and Prophet Muhammad (saaws) was killed at the Battle of Badr instead of them being victorious and the prominent pagans like Abu Lahab being killed. Imagine that the remaining Muslims were hunted down and slaughtered after this to extinguish any threat to their idol worship. Imagine that the chief among these pagans persecuting the Muslims, say Yazid ibn Muawiya, (who never met Muhammad) was traveling to a distant land to arrest the Muslims there, but he had a supernatural vision on the way, repented of his persecution and became a Muslim. However, instead of going to Medina to see Uthman (not present at Badr) to learn about the teachings of Muhammad, he went to Persia for 3 years. During this time he continued to develop his understanding of Islam through direct 'revelation from Allah' as he claimed. Now imagine this 'Islam' that was revealed to him had nothing to do with prayer, fasting, charity or pilgrimage, but instead saw that the highly respected leader of the first Muslims, Muhammad, was really the manifestation of Allah on earth and that his death at Badr was the means for mankind to be redeemed from their sins and gain Paradise. Imagine that the Quran revealed to Muhammad had not been memorized or written down, but instead various hadith - some Qudsi (Holy), some sahih (authentic), some da'if (weak) and some mawdu (fabricated) - were written down 50 years after Muhammad's death. Then imagine that a diverse collection of these hadith were evaluated after an additional 250 years and 300 out of 3,000 hadith were deemed as 'authentic' with the subcollection being given the title 'Quran' and the others destroyed.

If this preposterous scenario happened, what form of Islam would we have today? Could this imaginary scenario be an analogy for what actually happened in Christianity?

[Burninglight]

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/...les/josh2.html

To put Christianity to nought one just has to destroy the the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is not necessary to bring up interpolation discrepancies or translational errors or omitted books of the Bible. Just His death and resurrection is enough!

[MustafaMc]

To put Christianity to nought one just has to destroy the the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is not necessary to bring up interpolation discrepancies or translational errors or omitted books of the Bible. Just His death and resurrection is enough!

Yes, and I find it more than coincidental that his death was unequivocally denied in the Quran 4:157 "... they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them... " The foundation of Christianity as we know it today IMO was laid bare and exposed as 'sinking sand' in a single Quranic verse. What comes to my mind is Matthew 7:26-27 Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

[YusufNoor]

Assalamu alaikum, Brother. Have you considered the significance of this date relative to the destruction of Jerusalem and the turmoil that must have existed at that time? Jerusalem and the immediate surrounding area is the heart of where Jesus (as) preached and it is where the disciples resided as evidenced by Paul in Galatians. Could it be that the 4 gospels were written by followers of Paul again as one may interpret from Galatians?

If this preposterous scenario happened, what form of Islam would we have today? Could this imaginary scenario be an analogy for what actually happened in Christianity?

:sl:

the date is of EXTREME importance. the dates i gave for the Gospels are generally accepted by the majority of Biblical scholars. conservative Christians and evangelicals cite the omission of the destruction of the Temple in the Gospels as evidence that they were written before it. that is like saying if i write a story about the Korean War, but don't mention the Vietnam War then my writing of it had to predate the Vietnam War.

ALL of the Gospels were written after Paul "changed" the true Message of Christianity, therefore, the writers probably had little interested in the destruction of the Temple. you see anti-Jewish sentiment in the Gospels anyway.

Burninglight
To put Christianity to nought one just has to destroy the the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is not necessary to bring up interpolation discrepancies or translational errors or omitted books of the Bible. Just His death and resurrection is enough!

you can't destroy the REAL Christianity, which is Islam!

:wa:

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

some comments on the link:

The New Testament accounts of the resurrection were being circulated within the lifetimes of men and women alive at the time of the resurrection. Those people could certainly have confirmed or denied the accuracy of such accounts.

the human lifespan was alot shorter 200 years ago, 35 years before Mark is a LONG time! an assumption is NOT evidence.

The writers of the four Gospels either had themselves been witnesses or else were relating the accounts of eyewitnesses of the actual events. In advocating their case for the gospel, a word that means "good news," the apostles appealed (even when confronting their most severe opponents) to common knowledge concerning the facts of the resurrection.

what IS a FACT is that we don't know who the writers were. they don't identify themselves or themselves as witnesses. it is hearsay.again, an assumption is NOT evidence.

F. F. Bruce, Rylands professor of biblical criticism and exegesis at the University of Manchester, says concerning the value of the New Testament records as primary sources: "Had there been any tendency to depart from the facts in any material respect, the possible presence of hostile witnesses in the audience would have served as a further corrective."

assumption.

Coinciding with the papyri discoveries, an abundance of other manuscripts came to light (over 24,000 copies of early New Testament manuscripts are known to be in existence today). The historian Luke wrote of "authentic evidence" concerning the resurrection. Sir William Ramsay, who spent 15 years attempting to undermine Luke credentials as a historian, and to refute the reliability of the New Testament, finally concluded: "Luke is a historian of the first rank . . . This author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians. "

there is no evidence that "Luke" is the author of Luke. if the author had "authentic evidence", he or she could have produced it. i see no footnotes by the author telling us his evidence. and again, assumption.

I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . .

E. M. Blaiklock
Professor of Classics
Auckland University

the FACT there is no evidence means that Mr Blaiklock is neither truthful nor a historian.

i WAS trying to sleep, but i'll go on a bit more:

The New Testament witnesses were fully aware of the background against which the resurrection took place. The body of Jesus, in accordance with Jewish burial custom, was wrapped in a linen cloth. About 100 pounds of aromatic spices, mixed together to form a gummy substance, were applied to the wrappings of cloth about the body. After the body was placed in a solid rock tomb, an extremely large stone was rolled against the entrance of the tomb. Large stones weighing approximately two tons were normally rolled (by means of levers) against a tomb entrance.

keep in mind that ONLY John mentions the 100 lbs. you see, by the time Joseph would've gotten back, it was the Sabbath, no work is allowed. let's look at the earlier Gospels:

Mark 15:42 It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, 43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. 44 Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45 When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph. 46 So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. 47 Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joseph saw where he was laid.

Matt 27:57 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59 Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away. 61 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb.

Luke 23:50 Now there was a man named Joseph, a member of the Council, a good and upright man, 51 who had not consented to their decision and action. He came from the Judean town of Arimathea, and he himself was waiting for the kingdom of God. 52 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body. 53 Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen cloth and placed it in a tomb cut in the rock, one in which no one had yet been laid. 54 It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.

65 years after the time of Jesus, the author of "John" states:

John 19:38 Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jewish leaders. With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away. 39 He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.[e] 40 Taking Jesus’ body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs. 41 At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid. 42 Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there

now, i'm going to some straight out and claim "John" to be a liar! i know testimony can vary, but certain "alleged Christian authors" who predate him, disagree. and no, this doesn't come from some "hate site", i have a rather unusual source for this one...

you ready for it?

it's "The Bible!" you see, unlike "John" i have the other 3 Gospels before me and unlike Mr "historian" Blaiklock, I CAN READ!! [which, at the least, should be a prerequisite for some researching an earlier time!

Mark 16:1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. 2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3 and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”

and the kicker:

Luke 23:52 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body. 53 Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen cloth and placed it in a tomb cut in the rock, one in which no one had yet been laid. 54 It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.

55 The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. 56 Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.

Luke 24:1 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.

you see, because of the Sabbath, they had to wait until Sunday!

But three days later the tomb was empty. The followers of Jesus said He had risen from the dead. They reported that He appeared to them during a period of 40 days, showing Himself to them by many "infallible proofs." Paul the apostle recounted that Jesus appeared to more than 500 of His followers at one time, the majority of whom were still alive and who could confirm what Paul wrote

hearsay upon hearsay, based upon the man who tried to destroy Christianity, and claiming [in Galatians] to have a new Gospel, Saul!

i DO agree that there was an empty tomb, but i disagree that Jesus, pbuh, was ever put in it. remember, the earliest Gospel Mark, in it's earliest form ends at:

Mark 16:6 “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”

8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid

source:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...16&version=NIV

so, according to the earliest written Gospel, Jesus,pbuh, appeared to NO ONE! and the women "said nothing to anyone" about the "young man dressed in a white robe." so then, where did all of the other stories come from?

Both Jewish and Roman sources and traditions admit an empty tomb. Those resources range from Josephus to a compilation of fifth-century Jewish writings called the "Toledoth Jeshu." Dr. Paul Maier calls this "positive evidence from a hostile source, which is the strongest kind of historical evidence. In essence, this means that if a source admits a fact decidedly not in its favor, then that fact is genuine.

Josephus never claims to be a witness, writing ca 75-95, AND the parts where he does mention it are considered to be in part, forgery.

There exists no document from the ancient world, witnessed by so excellent a set of textual and historical testimonies . . . Skepticism regarding the historical credentials of Christianity is based upon an irrational bias.


Clark Pinnock
Mcmaster University

i'm sorry Mr Mcmaster, but there is NO contemporaneous evidence, NONE! it's "irrational" to even make your statement.

Christ appeared alive on several occasions after the cataclysmic events of that first Easter . When studying an event in history, it is important to know whether enough people who were participants or eyewitnesses to the event were alive when the facts about the event were published. To know this is obviously helpful in ascertaining the accuracy of the published report. If the number of eyewitnesses is substantial, the event can he regarded as fairly well established. For instance, if we all witness a murder, and a later police report turns out to he a fabrication of lies, we as eyewitnesses can refute it.

eyewitness who are confirmed in this? ZERO, but Paul, along with the "author" of Acts, does render conflicting accounts.

so we discount the other 499 witnesses.

OVER 500 WITNESSES
Several very important factors arc often overlooked when considering Christ's post-resurrection appearances to individuals. The first is the large number of witnesses of Christ after that resurrection morning. One of the earliest records of Christ's appearing after the resurrection is by Paul. The apostle appealed to his audience's knowledge of the fact that Christ had been seen by more than 500 people at one time. Paul reminded them that the majority of those people were still alive and could be questioned. Dr. Edwin M. Yamauchi, associate professor of history at Miami University in Oxford, Ohio, emphasizes: "What gives a special authority to the list (of witnesses) as historical evidence is the reference to most of the five hundred brethren being still alive. St. Paul says in effect, 'If you do not believe me, you can ask them.' Such a statement in an admittedly genuine letter written within thirty years of the event is almost as strong evidence as one could hope to get for something that happened nearly two thousand years ago." Let's take the more than 500 witnesses who saw Jesus alive after His death and burial, and place them in a courtroom. Do you realize that if each of those 500 people were to testify for only six minutes, including cross-examination, you would have an amazing 50 hours of firsthand testimony? Add to this the testimony of many other eyewitnesses and you would well have the largest and most lopsided trial in history.

we just discredited 499, plus Paul isn't that reliable. thus no 50 hours of testimony. too bad!

be careful when checking propagandist websites!

:wa:

sam

[Burninglight]

Imagine for a moment a hypothetical parallel between the 1st century of Christianity and of Islam if the Muslims were annihlated and Prophet Muhammad (saaws) was killed at the Battle of Badr instead of them being victorious and the prominent pagans like Abu Lahab being killed. Imagine that the remaining Muslims were hunted down and slaughtered after this to extinguish any threat to their idol worship. Imagine that the chief among these pagans persecuting the Muslims, say Yazid ibn Muawiya, (who never met Muhammad) was traveling to a distant land to arrest the Muslims there, but he had a supernatural vision on the way, repented of his persecution and became a Muslim. However, instead of going to Medina to see Uthman (not present at Badr) to learn about the teachings of Muhammad, he went to Persia for 3 years. During this time he continued to develop his understanding of Islam through direct 'revelation from Allah' as he claimed. Now imagine this 'Islam' that was revealed to him had nothing to do with prayer, fasting, charity or pilgrimage, but instead saw that the highly respected leader of the first Muslims, Muhammad, was really the manifestation of Allah on earth and that his death at Badr was the means for mankind to be redeemed from their sins and gain Paradise. Imagine that the Quran revealed to Muhammad had not been memorized or written down, but instead various hadith - some Qudsi (Holy), some sahih (authentic), some da'if (weak) and some mawdu (fabricated) - were written down 50 years after Muhammad's death. Then imagine that a diverse collection of these hadith were evaluated after an additional 250 years and 300 out of 3,000 hadith were deemed as 'authentic' with the subcollection being given the title 'Quran' and the others destroyed.

If this preposterous scenario happened, what form of Islam would we have today? Could this imaginary scenario be an analogy for what actually happened in Christianity?

If that happened, people would say Islam is a copycat religion of Chrisitanity; as it is, people say that Islam has its roots in pre-Islamic times and nothing new was taught; for instance, People worshipped Allah before Muhammad's time and monotheism was the order of the day for the Jew and the Christian before Muhammad's time.

[MustafaMc]

If that happened, people would say Islam is a copycat religion of Chrisitanity

What I wrote was meant to be a parody of Christianity to contrast the foundational roots of Islam with those of Christianity. I guess my point was lost in the details.

as it is, people say that Islam has its roots in pre-Islamic times and nothing new was taught; for instance, People worshipped Allah before Muhammad's time and monotheism was the order of the day for the Jew and the Christian before Muhammad's time.

This is a good point which gets to our claim that all of the prophets taught basically the same as what we know as Islam today. What is new about Islam though is that previous prophets were sent to a specific people; whereas, Muhammad (saaws) was sent to the whole world. In earlier times prophets were sent to lead people back to the worship of One God after they had deviated from the guidance of prophets before them. Muhammad (saaws) was the seal of prophets and therefore the last one. We Muslims believe that our religion is the same as that taught by Muhammad and that the Quran has been preserved down to the last letter.

[Burninglight]

the human lifespan was alot shorter 200 years ago, 35 years before Mark is a LONG time! an assumption is NOT evidence.

Did you mean 200 or 2000? Go back another 2000 and people lived much longer than today.

there is no evidence that "Luke" is the author of Luke. if the author had "authentic evidence", he or she could have produced it. i see no footnotes by the author telling us his evidence. and again, assumption.

There is no evidence that he's not the author.

hearsay upon hearsay, based upon the man who tried to destroy Christianity, and claiming [in Galatians] to have a new Gospel, Saul!

Paul claims Jesus spoke to him. Why should I doubt it any more or less than Muhammad's angelic visitations?

i'm sorry Mr Mcmaster, but there is NO contemporaneous evidence, NONE! it's "irrational" to even make your statement.

How do you know?

eyewitness who are confirmed in this? ZERO, but Paul, along with the "author" of Acts, does render conflicting accounts.

so we discount the other 499 witnesses.

I don't understand how you discounted 499 witnesses. Sorry I don't follow you here. The death and resurrection cannot be disproved either. We have the Scriptures that came before stating clearly it happened. Those Scriptures have been in circulation for some 1600 years before Muhammad's time. The Bible records the events way more closer to the time frame of the event than the recitations.

[YusufNoor]

Did you mean 200 or 2000? Go back another 2000 and people lived much longer than today.

2000, according to Professor Harl PhD, Yale, teaching at Tulane, each couple need to have 10 children at the time just to maintain a zero population growth.

There is no evidence that he's not the author.

*laughs* well, you want us to believe that he is the author, you must produce the evidence, otherwise i could just as well say, prove the Devil didn't write it!

Paul claims Jesus spoke to him. Why should I doubt it any more or less than Muhammad's angelic visitations?

we have witness, to revelation being revealed and testimony that of Gabriell's presence from witnesses. the 2 reports in Acts are contradictory.

How do you know?

because none exists. if there was, Christians would produce it.

I don't understand how you discounted 499 witnesses. Sorry I don't follow you here. The death and resurrection cannot be disproved either. We have the Scriptures that came before stating clearly it happened. Those Scriptures have been in circulation for some 1600 years before Muhammad's time. The Bible records the events way more closer to the time frame of the event than the recitations.

:sl:

claiming 500 witnesses doesn't make it so. i can't take you to court and just claim that i 500 witness against you. i would have to produce them. the earliest complete Qur'an is closer to Muhammad, pbuh, that the earliest complete Bible is to Jesus, pbuh. and there is no evidence of any Christian scriptures 1600 years before Muhammad, pbuh!

:wa:

[Burninglight]

2000, according to Professor Harl PhD, Yale, teaching at Tulane, each couple need to have 10 children at the time just to maintain a zero population growth.

Okay, point taken.

*laughs* well, you want us to believe that he is the author, you must produce the evidence, otherwise i could just as well say, prove the Devil didn't write it!

Well, don't laugh to loud; this doesn't get us anywhere. Someone can say it was NOT Jibril but an impersonating demon; that cannot be proved. Christians believe when the Bible states that Satan can appear as an angel of light to deceive even the elect, and if he can do that, it is no wonder that prophets can appear as ministers of righteousness and not be like Muslims believe, for instance, about the great apostle Paul. Moreover, no one can prove that angels didn't appear to Joseph Smith, and no one can prove that it was Jesus that spoke to Paul on the road to Damacus to persecute more Christians or that it was really Jibril compelling Muhammad to recite. Isn't what I say calling a spade a spade?

we have witness, to revelation being revealed and testimony that of Gabriell's presence from witnesses. the 2 reports in Acts are contradictory.

What witnesses? How do we know they weren't fooled by an impersonation or how do we know for sure the witnesses were reliable? We can reverse everything that is said about the Bible to the Quran to one degree or another.

because none exists. if there was, Christians would produce it.

Okay, point take again. So, what can I do but try to reason things out the best I can. Since you and I cannot deny that there are authors behind the Bible, we need to ask do the authors pass the test of intending on giving a true and accurate portrayal of Biblical history. IOW, is there any reason or motive for them not ot do so? In the intro to Luke 1 the following is said: ¹ Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled^[a] among us, ² just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. ³ With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, ⁴ so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught. It sounds like Luke the physician is writing this to me with noble intentions!

Next, we need to look at the ability test. For instance, even if the authors intended to portray an accurate preserved account, were they able to do it? How can we be sure that they were able to reliably preserve the record of Jesus' life, death and resurrection for thirty years before it was finally put to print? Well, they didn't have computers back then so they relied on memorization. Rabbis have become famous for being able to memorize the entire OT. With that being said, it would be easy for Jesus' disciples to commit to memory the NT or it was well within their ability like those that memorized the Quran.

Now, we need to look at whether they pass the character test. In other words, is there any moral failures in their lives that might take from their creditablity? I know of none. Were they willing to put to practice what they believed? I think many of them have gone through horrible deaths to preach, teach and live the gospel. Is it logical for someone to do such a thing to spread a tale? Wisdom and logic tell me no!

There are other test we can put them through such as the consistency and many other tests. I will stop with this test since it has been discussed the most on this forum in regards to Dr. Evans & Dr Erhman's debate. Let me share what Simon Greanleaf (Harvard law school professor)said, "There is enough discrepancey to show that there could have been no previous concert among them: and at the same time such substantial agreement to show that they were all independant narrators of the same great transaction" Hans Stier concurs that divergent details suggest creditability and that fabricated accounts harmonize too prefectly. He states, "Every historian is skeptical at the moment when an extraordinary happening is only reported in accounts which are completely free of contradiction"

I can tell you from my experience that people can witness an accident and give a report on it. Everyone that saw it from different angles have a different perspective that may seem like contradiction and are not really. We weren't there to see what they saw. We Christians take it by faith that God is able to preserve what Scriptures were important for us to know. All version of the Bible agree that Jesus died and rose again; the only scriptures that deny this and add confusion and blantant contradiction to what has been reported for over 2000 years is the fairly recent Quran by comparison.

[Aprender]

OK. So through your posts I've gathered that you recognize that there are contradictions in the bible. But it seems that you don't care about any of those and all that matters to you is the resurrection.

All version of the Bible agree that Jesus died and rose again; the only scriptures that deny this and add confusion and blantant contradiction to what has been reported for over 2000 years is the fairly recent Quran by comparison.

That's not true. I don't think you've actually taken the time out to read what we've shared with you here. Did you not see what the brother shared with you earlier?

Mark: written sometime between 65 and 75AD. no one knows who authored it. but even still at this late date, there is no eyewitness, or written, account of a resurrected Jesus, pbuh. you see, Mark ends at:

16:6 “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”

8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

reading further in the NIV, you see:

[The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]

Did you not look at the Codex Sinaiticus, the world's oldest known Bible, 1,600 years old, which didn't include parts about the resurrection at all? Did you not read what we've shared with you about Jewish Christians who were alive MUCH CLOSER to the time of Jesus (puh) than all of us now who believed that he was not crucified? And the fishy thing about the Pauline doctrine that you take is that all other letters in opposition to his ideas were destroyed. Why was there any need for that if what he had was the truth?

With that being said, it would be easy for Jesus' disciples to commit to memory the NT or it was well within their ability like those that memorized the Quran.

Which version of the new testament? How many Christians do you know who have memorized whichever version of the Bible they have? Talk to a Christian in Ethiopia, another Christian in Iowa and another Christian in South Korea, they wouldn't be reciting the same thing. Not to mention these are different languages and translations of it all. Show me a Christian who can recite the entire bible, old testament and new testament in it's original language. It is an insult to the millions of hafiz across the world to even try and make that comparison.

Did you not read the Bible verses in which the people around Jesus(pbuh) referred to him as a prophet? When he referred to himself as a prophet? When he himself referred to himself as a servant of Allah? Did you not grab a copy of that red letter bible? You have to put in the work. You have to read. You have to investigate. You need to get to know actual Muslims.

I think many of them have gone through horrible deaths to preach, teach and live the gospel. Is it logical for someone to do such a thing to spread a tale? Wisdom and logic tell me no!

Is it logical for the hundreds of thousands of Muslim men, women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan to have lost their lives over a tale of hiding weapons of Mass Destruction? Going through horrible deaths simply because they are Muslims? Is it logical for Muslims in the West to be unlawfully thrown in jail, harassed by the police, physically assaulted by fellow citizens and other law enforcement agencies just because we are Muslims?

Was it logical for Bilal, a Muslim in the time of the Prophet (saws), to continue saying "Only one God," when his pagan slave owner would rip off his clothes and leave him laying out in the burning sun day after day with a heavy, sun-baked rock on his chest in an effort to shut him up and get him to associate partners with Allah just to spread a tale? To allow his slave owners to tie him up and drag him around to make an example out of him for only believing in One God just to spread a tale? Or other slaves who had hot metals poured on their heads for believing in One God just to spread a tale? Or being stabbed in the stomach and dying yet still standing up to go to the prayer just to spread a tale? Or being beaten until temporarily losing eye sight just to spread a tale? :cry:



Was it logical for early church leaders to burn people alive? Was it logical for the church to debate on whether or not a woman had a soul? Was it logical for the KKK to hunt down and lynch blacks in America because they believed, and still do, in a tale that they are the superior race? Tell me no now.

I can tell you from my experience that people can witness an accident and give a report on it. Everyone that saw it from different angles have a different perspective that may seem like contradiction and are not really.

OK. Let's be real.

Matthew 27:28
²⁸ They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him,

John 19:2
² The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe

Scarlet and purple are not the same color. Which one was it?

Mark 15:25
²⁵ It was nine in the morning when they crucified him.

John 19:14
¹⁴ It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon.

9 a.m. and noon are not the same time. Which one was it?

Luke 23:46
⁴⁶ Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 19:30
³⁰ When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

So which of these were his last words?

Matthew 27:32³² As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross.

John 19:17
¹⁷ Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha).

So did Simon help him carry it or not?

Matthew 27:51-53
⁵¹ At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split ⁵² and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. ⁵³ They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Yet the other three books of the NT don't mention this. An earthquake is pretty serious event for those 500 witnesses to miss. And there are other discrepancies with what words were said, the amount of angels that appeared and the day that Jesus appeared again. Why would there be so many inconsistencies with such an event like this?

Now if you came to a judge with witnesses saying different things, or telling you things that they didn't witness themselves but heard from someone else, who heard it from someone else, who heard it from someone else but the original person who witnesses it couldn't be identified or verified, a judge would throw your case out of the court and move onto the next one and probably scold you for wasting their time.

Mark 15
⁶ Now it was the custom at the festival to release a prisoner whom the people requested. ⁷ A man called Barabbas was in prison with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the uprising. ⁸ The crowd came up and asked Pilate to do for them what he usually did. ⁹ “Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate, ¹⁰ knowing it was out of self-interest that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him. ¹¹ But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have Pilate release Barabbas instead.

Now, if you look at the early Greek manuscript of Mark 15, his name is Jesus Barabbas, a name that is conveniently left out and the name Barabbas is not translated for a reason. The Aramahic name Abba means "son of the father". Sounds familiar doesn't it? So then which Jesus was the one who was crucified and which one was let go? We know that early Jewish Christians did not believe that the Jesus was crucified. Many early Christians believed that he was a great prophet and worshipped One God and kept the commandments. And you don't have to look for an outside reference for that. It's in your copy of the bible.

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. (157) [An-Nisa:157]

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (171) [An-Nisa: 171]

Mark 12:29
²⁹ “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one

Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor would the angels near [to Him]. [An-Nisa: 172]

John 17:3
³ Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 6:14
¹⁴ After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.”


Be honest with yourself and read the books that we've posted for you too. Never say that you are here trying to learn Islam so you can try to tell people why you rejected it. You don't know what's going to happen to you 40 seconds from now, months from now, years from now. That knowledge is with Allah alone. He has blessed you with a brain, and in the 21st century He has blessed you with an abundance of resources to help you in your quest for knowledge. Pray to God alone to guide you to the truth.

in shaa Allah you will drop all of your preconceived notions about Islam that you learned from the media and allow yourself to be guided. I can see that there is a lot on your brain. Take a step back for a while and like I said, why don't you try hanging out with some Muslims around you to see what they are like AWAY from the internet. Step into reality for a moment. Visit a masjid. Gain some real perspective.

The sun and the moon [move] by precise calculation, (5) And the stars and trees prostrate. (6) And the heaven He raised and imposed the balance (7) That you not transgress within the balance. (8) And establish weight in justice and do not make deficient the balance. (9) And the earth He laid [out] for the creatures. (10) Therein is fruit and palm trees having sheaths [of dates] (11) And grain having husks and scented plants. (12) So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? (13) [Ar-Rahman (The Most Gracious)]

[MustafaMc]

Now, if you look at the early Greek manuscript of Mark 15, his name is Jesus Barabbas, a name that is conveniently left out and the name Barabbas is not translated for a reason. The Aramahic name Abba means "son of the father". Sounds familiar doesn't it? So then which Jesus was the one who was crucified and which one was let go?

Funny that I read that somewhere else just yesterday.

[Burninglight]

OK. So through your posts I've gathered that you recognize that there are contradictions in the bible. But it seems that you don't care about any of those and all that matters to you is the resurrection.

I wouldn't say contradictions don't bother me. I'm just wondering if there is an explanation that I haven't noticed. Now, I am going through a study about the resurrection. I didn't know about the 9 am and noon deal. I never noticed that before. It is strange about the different color robes. I favor the ESV over the NIV it says it was the 6th hour and another the third hour, but it still means the same. I just don't know what to make of it. I didn't read the book. I wish you would pull out what you consider to be significant detail. Why do I want to read a book designed to tear down my belief system. If you spoon feed me I;ll look at it all. I honestly don't understand thoswe confliction passages in the Bible does it bother me? Yes, but not enought to convince me that Islam is the order of the day.

You are showing me detail and contradictions that you researched online or could from other sources. I can do that and find contradictions for the Quran, but I read them and feel it is not worth bringing to you attention. I am sure there explianations for them. I just try to look at the big picture not what I would consider to be insignifcant detail. I am going to do a study on the codex Sinaiticus. Have you research the Hafsaph codex? The Big Picture is that Jesus fufills over 300 prophecies in the Bible Isaiah 53 says why he was to die for our trangressions. What difference does it make what time or what color the robe was the point is He was crucified. Now if one book says hHe was and another says He wasn't then you have destryed the crediability of hte NT, but no one has been able to destroy the Bible; it is still the best seller and always will be. Have you read what I wrote about little detail differences historians say it supports the creditablity of the Bible and proves it had different authors. Historians are suspect of something that so prefectly harmonizes. I need some major conflict to discount the Bible not petty details that make no difference to the central theme of the Bible.

Again I quote, "There is enough discrepancey to show that there could have been no previous concert among them: and at the same time such substantial agreement to show that they were all independant narrators of the same great transaction" Hans Stier concurs that divergent details suggest creditability and that fabricated accounts harmonize too prefectly. He states, "Every historian is skeptical at the moment when an extraordinary happening is only reported in accounts which are completely free of contradiction"

I agree with these comments above.

Originally Posted by Burninglight

All version of the Bible agree that Jesus died and rose again; the only scriptures that deny this and add confusion and blantant contradiction to what has been reported for over 2000 years is the fairly recent Quran by comparison.
"That's not true. I don't think you've actually taken the time out to read what we've shared with you here. Did you not see what the brother shared with you earlier?" No, I am a little slow that way and not very observant. So if you could post it again, but I am not going to read books on it. I need spoon fed details as to why the crucifixion of our beloved Jesus didn't happen besides the Quran saying so. IOW, what version of the Bible contradicts this fact of history and where. Telling me that the codex book left out some detail of the resurrection is not saying it didn't happen.

All of Christianity hangs on the death and resurrection of Christ! Without that Christianity cannot stand.

Jesus Barabbas I didn't understand that at all.

[Burninglight]

How many Christians do you know who have memorized whichever version of the Bible they have? Talk to a Christian in Ethiopia, another Christian in Iowa and another Christian in South Korea, they wouldn't be reciting the same thing. Not to mention these are different languages and translations of it all. Show me a Christian who can recite the entire bible, old testament and new testament in it's original language. It is an insult to the millions of hafiz across the world to even try and make that comparison.

Jesus was born, grew up, and spent his ministry among people who knew Scripture by memory, who debated its application with enthusiasm, and who loved God with all their hearts, all their souls and all their might (Deut. 6:5). http://www.followtherabbi.com/Brix?pageID=2753
Do you know of anyone blind that memorized the Quran?
http://www.bpnews.net/printerfriendly.asp?ID=5466
If someone burned all the Bibles in the world. It can be reproduced because of it being committed to memory by many and to heart. I have memorized quite a bit of Scripture myself in a differnent language than my mother tongue like Spanish as well. Yo puedo aprender tambien.

[Aprender]

Sabes Español? MashaAllah.

All of Christianity hangs on the death and resurrection of Christ! Without that Christianity cannot stand.

Ke triste! Todo lo demas no es importante? Los mandamientos? La vida de Jesus (pbuh)? Las enseñanzas de él? Las profetas? Bible? No hay Christianity sin estos? No me digas.

If someone burned all the Bibles in the world. It can be reproduced because of it being committed to memory by many and to heart. I have memorized quite a bit of Scripture myself in a differnent language than my mother tongue like Spanish as well. Yo puedo aprender tambien.

Pues, su comparación con el memorización del Coran y el Bible no somos mismo! El Coran es en Arabe. Recítalo en Arabe. Léalo en Arabe. No hay Coran en Ingles, Español, o Griego. Aquellos son traducciones. Coran es solo en Arabe. Un Bible en Espanol, Ingles, o Chino es un traducción. Aunque su puede aprender el Bible en otro idiomas, no lo mismo ke original. Solo un traducciones. Un hafiz en Prague o Croatia o China o EE.UU recite el Coran solo en Arabe. Palabra por palabra.

Y no necesita ver para memorizar el Coran. Solo necesita oír y entender, mi hermano.

Ojala que tiene paz.

[YusufNoor]

Jesus was born, grew up, and spent his ministry among people who knew Scripture by memory, who debated its application with enthusiasm, and who loved God with all their hearts, all their souls and all their might (Deut. 6:5). http://www.followtherabbi.com/Brix?pageID=2753
Do you know of anyone blind that memorized the Quran?
http://www.bpnews.net/printerfriendly.asp?ID=5466
If someone burned all the Bibles in the world. It can be reproduced because of it being committed to memory by many and to heart. I have memorized quite a bit of Scripture myself in a differnent language than my mother tongue like Spanish as well. Yo puedo aprender tambien.

that is an utterly false statement! no one can agree on exactly what the Bible is! and name us 10pp who have 1 version of the Bible committed to memory!

on the other hand there are around 10,000,000 who have the entire Qu'ran memorized!

you need to clear yourself of your delusions!

:wa:

[Ramadhan]

http://www.bpnews.net/printerfriendly.asp?ID=5466
Do you know of anyone blind that memorized the Quran?

Well, that girl only memorized New testatement, she didn't memorize bible.
Next time you feel the need to deceive people, be smart about it chaps.

Millions of people have FULLY memorized Qur'an, including my 16 yo girl-cousin.
And thousands of blinds have FULLY memorized qur'an:

http://twocircles.net/2012jan27/blin..._quran_16.html

http://mygj.net/aramzani/?tag=quran

If someone burned all the Bibles in the world. It can be reproduced because of it being committed to memory by many and to heart. I have memorized quite a bit of Scripture myself in a differnent language than my mother tongue like Spanish as well.

LOL. you copied my statement, and changed qur'an for bible.

Tell me, which version of bible is memorized?

and please tell me which one is original bible that people memorized?

And AGAIN, please give me THE EXACT, ACTUAL words of Jesus (pbuh).

And if you keep trolling as it is now, I will not be as lenient as those in Ummah.

[Burninglight]

Ke triste! Todo lo demas no es importante? Los mandamientos? La vida de Jesus (pbuh)? Las enseñanzas de él? Las profetas? Bible? No hay Christianity sin estos? No me digas.

It is not sad to a Christian if you understand we are coming from two different worldviews. We believe all the law and the prophets are fufulled in loving God with all your heart soul and mind and our neighbor as ourself. Even if we hate our enemies, we have fallen short of God's will. We can hate what a person does but never the person.

Pues, su comparación con el memorización del Coran y el Bible no somos mismo! El Coran es en Arabe. Recítalo en Arabe. Léalo en Arabe. No hay Coran en Ingles, Español, o Griego. Aquellos son traducciones. Coran es solo en Arabe. Un Bible en Espanol, Ingles, o Chino es un traducción. Aunque su puede aprender el Bible en otro idiomas, no lo mismo ke original. Solo un traducciones. Un hafiz en Prague o Croatia o China o EE.UU recite el Coran solo en Arabe. Palabra por palabra.

Y no necesita ver para memorizar el Coran. Solo necesita oír y entender, mi hermano.

Ojala que tiene paz.

i understand the distinction you are making about the language. That is true, but I cannot say that people haven't memorized the Bible in Hebrew and Greek, but the language was Aramaic. Are you saying it is not as effective to memorize the Quran in English since it was written in Arabic? I am not sure that is significant has you make it sound. What is important is that it is true or not. The language it is delievered in is not as important as if what is being said is truth or not. wouldn't you agree?.

I could tell you something funny a black and white guy died having an argument on whether God was black or white. The white guy said "He's white" the black said "No, He is black" when they arrived near the judgment throne of God, a giant curtain rolled back, and out of the bright light they heard "Buenos Dias"
I hope you also have peace sister

[Burninglight]

And if you keep trolling as it is now, I will not be as lenient as those in Ummah.

Well, that doesn't sound friendly; it sounds like a threat. I am going to retreat. I don't know what Ummah means or is, but I don't like you calling me a troll. I have not been disrespectful to anyone one the forum, But I have been accused of being a troll and delusional and who know what else behind my back. It makes me think you want me silent, because you cannot gainsay. Well, I will continue to observe posts and not post for a while since you are a moderator saying that. If anyone else said it, it wouldn't bother me, but I can tell that you are trigger happy to cut me off as your only method to silence me. You make me feel like "The Christian is taking tooo long to convert; lets silence him, cause he's more trouble than he's worth to our discussions."

[Ramadhan]

Burninglight, Please have some courtesy and address my post #83

[Burninglight]

I am burned out can't deal with the name calling and accusations; so, I am back to PMs. Sorry, I know some of you are happy to see me stop posting . You got your wish
:omg: I will address post #83

[Burninglight]

Well, that girl only memorized New testatement, she didn't memorize bible.
Next time you feel the need to deceive people, be smart about it chaps.

Millions of people have FULLY memorized Qur'an, including my 16 yo girl-cousin.
And thousands of blinds have FULLY memorized qur'an:

http://twocircles.net/2012jan27/blin..._quran_16.html

http://mygj.net/aramzani/?tag=quran






LOL. you copied my statement, and changed qur'an for bible.

Tell me, which version of bible is memorized?

and please tell me which one is original bible that people memorized?

And AGAIN, please give me THE EXACT, ACTUAL words of Jesus (pbuh).

I don't know the exact language of Jesus accept it was Aramic, and yes more people have memorized the Quran than Christians have the Bible. The Bible is much harder to memorize because of its size. I commend these people for their committement to memorize the Quran. I was only trying to respond to a question. I think Aprender asked name one person or name someone who has memorized the Bible. I showed someone who memorized the OT and someone who memorized the NT. There are people that have memorized the Bible that we don't know about. There are people with photo graphic memories that have memorized telephone directories just for the fun of it. So go firgure. I don't know why I am being jumpped on so severely for just answering a question.

[Burninglight]

Good bye, I will do some more study and see if that helps I can be reached by PMs for now

[Ramadhan]

I don't know the exact language of Jesus

You don't even know the exact language of Jesus (pbuh), then how can you be sure that what you have in your current versions of bibles is what Jesus (pbuh) actually said.

yes more people have memorized the Quran than Christians have the Bible

You have not even showed us a single christian who has fully memorized bible.

I showed someone who memorized the OT and someone who memorized the NT

and yet who has not showed us ANY person who have memorized bible.

There are people that have memorized the Bible that we don't know about

If there were any, it would have been big news by now.

I don't know why I am being jumpped on so severely for just answering a question.

Jumped on? Please.
No one has restricted your ability whatsoever to post. It's just that people have been complaining that you didn't respond to their arguments and refutations as if they didn't exist, and you keep throwing out statements after statements without any proof or evidence.

[Ramadhan]

Well, that doesn't sound friendly; it sounds like a threat. I am going to retreat. I don't know what Ummah means or is, but I don't like you calling me a troll. I have not been disrespectful to anyone one the forum, But I have been accused of being a troll and delusional and who know what else behind my back. It makes me think you want me silent, because you cannot gainsay. Well, I will continue to observe posts and not post for a while since you are a moderator saying that. If anyone else said it, it wouldn't bother me, but I can tell that you are trigger happy to cut me off as your only method to silence me. You make me feel like "The Christian is taking tooo long to convert; lets silence him, cause he's more trouble than he's worth to our discussions."

Please.
No one has restricted your ability whatsoever to post or trying to silence you.
As everyone has observed here, you have been throwing out statements without any evidence, and everytime anyone else refuted you, you pretend as if those didn't exist.

No one is trying to convert you here.
In any case, if there's anyone who's trying to convert someone else, it is you. You even had screen name "evangelist" in your previous life here.

Please learn to be honest, then maybe you will find the truth.

[Scimitar]

Cosmic Intuition made this video (we share the youtube account), I thought it fits nicely here, so I'll post it.

Bro BurningLight, check it out - I think you'll have a special appreciation for this one :)



Scimi

[MustafaMc]

Assalamu alaikum Brother Scimi, was that El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz a.k.a. Malcolm X?

[Scimitar]

Wa'alaykum salaam bro MustafaMC. :)

No, that's sheikh Khalid Yaseen. I love that guy...

Scimi

[Ramadhan]

Well, that girl only memorized New testatement, she didn't memorize bible.

Millions of people have FULLY memorized Qur'an, including my 16 yo girl-cousin.
And thousands of blinds have FULLY memorized qur'an:

http://twocircles.net/2012jan27/blin..._quran_16.html

http://mygj.net/aramzani/?tag=quran





Tell me, which version of bible is memorized?

and please tell me which one is original bible that people memorized?

And AGAIN, please give me THE EXACT, ACTUAL words of Jesus (pbuh).

Bumped.

Burninglight, can you please give me ONE single christian who has fully memorized bible.
I wouldn't ask you for a blind one, just anyone.

:)

[Periwinkle18]

Wa'alaykum salaam bro MustafaMC. :)

No, that's sheikh Khalid Yaseen. I love that guy...

Scimi

me too hes amazing hav u listened to his lecture called 'stranger' and 'the purpose of life'??

[Ramadhan]

Bumped.

Burninglight, can you please give me ONE single christian who has fully memorized bible.
I wouldn't ask you for a blind one, just anyone.

:)

Bumped for burninglight.

[MustafaMc]

You even had screen name "evangelist" in your previous life here.

Assalamu alaikum, now, that is interesting. Can someone once banned come back here under another user name? Sorta like being resurrected from the dead, huh.

[MustafaMc]

No, that's sheikh Khalid Yaseen. I love that guy...

Wa alaikum assalam, Brother Scimi, thanks for the info. Insh'Allah, I will look for more from him.

[Burninglight]

Assalamu alaikum, now, that is interesting. Can someone once banned come back here under another user name? Sorta like being resurrected from the dead, huh.

Do you mean like father like son?

[MustafaMc]

Do you mean like father like son?

Sorry, you lost me there. Was your father's or son's account disabled and he came back, too?^o)

I was wondering if you are learning anything new about Islam that you didn't know before or do your interactions here confirm your preconceived ideas about Muslims and Islam? Has it been a frustrating or satisfying experience?

[Burninglight]

Bumped for burninglight.

What does that mean?

[Hamza Asadullah]

What does that mean?

Bumped means that the thread is back up to the top again. You do seem a little on edge. Are you sure you are ok?

[Burninglight]

Sorry, you lost me there. Was your father's or son's account disabled and he came back, too?

No, lol, I meant has Jesus was temprorarily disabled and came back. I see Jesus as my father and me as His son.

Can someone once banned come back here under another user name? Sorta like being resurrected from the dead, huh.

It depends on what this banned person did or didn't do. What rule did this person break? If you cannot produce a broken forum rule for banning this person called "Evangelist" then whoever banned him is guilty of unjust discrimination. Yes, it would be like the innocent and just being resurrected from the dead, lol. It seems you prefer I stop posting, is that right?

[Burninglight]

good night to this thread for now

[Hamza Asadullah]

No, lol, I meant has Jesus was temprorarily disabled and came back. I see Jesus as my father and me as His son.
It depends on what this banned person did or didn't do. What rule did this person break? If you cannot produce a broken forum rule for banning this person called "Evangelist" then whoever banned him is guilty of unjust discrimination. Yes, it would be like the innocent and just being resurrected from the dead, lol. It seems you prefer I stop posting, is that right?

Are you an evangelist?

[MustafaMc]

No, lol, I meant has Jesus was temprorarily disabled and came back. I see Jesus as my father and me as His son.

Oh, OK.

It depends on what this banned person did or didn't do. What rule did this person break? If you cannot produce a broken forum rule for banning this person called "Evangelist" then whoever banned him is guilty of unjust discrimination.

Do you mean like: 15.Promoting Religions other than Islam, 16. No attacks against Islam in any form will be tolerated on this discussion board. This includes, but is not limited to attacks on the Qur'an, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), etc

It seems you prefer I stop posting, is that right?

No, within the rules of the forum you are welcome to stay by me.

[Burninglight]

Do you mean like: 15.Promoting Religions other than Islam, 16. No attacks against Islam in any form will be tolerated on this discussion board. This includes, but is not limited to attacks on the Qur'an, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), etc

Can you prove this?

No, within the rules of the forum you are welcome to stay by me.

Okay, but can Christianity be attacked on this forum?

[Burninglight]

Are you an evangelist?

I am who I am!

[Hamza Asadullah]

I am who I am!

That is not an answer. You stated previously that your a Biblical Christian. So what is the difference between an.Evangelist and a Biblical Christian? Which are you?

[MustafaMc]

Can you prove this?

Most of your posts actually come quite close to violating one or the other of these rules IMO.

Okay, but can Christianity be attacked on this forum?

There is no rule that says that the errors of other religions, including Christianity, cannot be exposed and discussed on this forum. You would be extremely naive to think that Muslims would not show the deviance of Christianity from the Truth when the Quran itself is replete with passages denying the very foundation of Christianity which is Jesus being the Son of God and at the same time God (astaghfir'Allah) and that he died on the cross. You are welcome to counter what you believe is incorrect in what we write, but I would think you have a "snow ball's chance in Hell" of getting us to deny what is written in the Quran.

[Burninglight]

Most of your posts actually come quite close to violating one or the other of these rules IMO.

No, we aren't talking about Burninglight, we are talking about Evangelist. PLZ don't bait and switch. Tell me about what Evangelist did wrong since you brought up the topic.

There is no rule that says that the errors of other religions, including Christianity, cannot be exposed and discussed on this forum. You would be extremely naive to think that Muslims would not show the deviance of Christianity from the Truth when the Quran itself is replete with passages denying the very foundation of Christianity which is Jesus being the Son of God and at the same time God (astaghfir'Allah) and that he died on the cross. You are welcome to counter what you believe is incorrect in what we write, but I would think you have a "snow ball's chance in Hell" of getting us to deny what is written in the Quran.

I see, but it is against the rules the other way around. That really makes for fair dialogue. Did it occur to you that all you said can be looked at in reverse?

[Burninglight]

That is not an answer. You stated previously that your a Biblical Christian. So what is the difference between an.Evangelist and a Biblical Christian? Which are you?

I have never stated that I was a Biblical Christian or an evangelist. I simply accept the title given me by Muslims. I don't really know what I am; I just know who I am in Christ. I have been given different titles by different people. Some titles have been disrespectful.
I hope that answers your question. By the way, the discussion had been who Evangelist was in a previous life time on the forum not whether I am one. Evangelist apparently was killed on this forum, and no one can tell me who killed him or why, and I am told I don't answer questions. It was stated or implied that I am him resurrected from the dead.
Peace

[MustafaMc]

No, we aren't talking about Burninglight, we are talking about Evangelist. PLZ don't bait and switch. Tell me about what Evangelist did wrong since you brought up the topic.

Quite honestly it is very difficult to know who is who on the forum as people change their user names. For myself, I have been MustafaMc since day one on the forum. Burninglight (you I assume) often attacks the Quran and Evangelist often lived up to his name and was promoting Christianity beyond mere discussion on comparative religion threads. My comment about resurrection from the dead was making an analogy of someone (Evangelist) getting their account disabled and then coming back under a different user name (Burninglight). In other words, is Burninglight and Evangelist one and the same person, or are you (Burninglight) a new member here for the first time in January 2012?

I see, but it is against the rules the other way around. That really makes for fair dialogue. Did it occur to you that all you said can be looked at in reverse?

If I were to go to a Christian forum and post as I do here, how long do you think it would take for me to get banned? Besides the point, what you post here seems to originate from anti-Islam sites (without your noting the source) whereas what I write is from my own perspective as a former Christian and as a result of reading the Bible and other books on Christianity and Bible history.

[Burninglight]

You said, "Most of your posts actually come quite close to violating one or the other of these rules IMO."

I said,
"No, we aren't talking about Burninglight, we are talking about Evangelist. PLZ don't bait and switch. Tell me about what Evangelist did wrong on forum rules since you brought up the topic."

I was accused of having a past life on the forum. I asked why did Evangelist get bumped? My question hasn't been answered. Ask the one who says I had a past life since you bought into it. I asked what happened to evangelist? My question hasn't been answered. Was evangelist discriminated against simply because of his name? If yes, that would be wicked, unjust and evil and it would be foolish to even ask a person who rose from the dead if he is the same person. That is tantamount to those who crucified Jesus asking Jesus, "Weren't you here on earth in a previous life?" What would any one ask me that question anyway?

If I were to go to a Christian forum and post as I do here, how long do you think it would take for me to get banned?

You would not be knocked off if you were posting the way you do here. This makes me think you were never really a Christian. You should have known that. Your question gives you away. I would never bump you for it & If a Christian did, I would sharply rebuke him or her for it.

[MustafaMc]

I was accused of having a past life on the forum. I asked why did Evangelist get bumped?

Have you read the forum guidelines and rules? I don't know why Evangelist's account was disabled, but I am puzzled as to why you seem to take it so personally.

http://www.islamicboard.com/faq.php?..._liforum_rules

1. Help build an e-Muslim community that supports each other, and promotes the Islamic image. This is why I am here.
2. The purpose of this forum is to educate non-Muslims and Muslims about Islam and its tenets. I presume this is why you are here - to learn about Islam.
15.Promoting Religions other than Islam
While interfaith discussions are allowed promoting another religion is not allowed on the discussion board. This discussion board was created to promote Islam, not another religion. There are many other discussion boards on the Web which you can promote your religion other than Islam. My memory of Evangelist's posts is that he went too far in promoting Christianity IMO.

The way you are ranting and raving about this indicates that you are either him or he is a close friend of yours. I have not heard you deny it and for that matter you indicated you were him with your "I am who I am!" response.

This makes me think you were never really a Christian. You should have known that. Your question gives you away.

Get real, surely you can do better than question that I was a Christian. Regardless, I don't see how that is an issue here as I have nothing to prove.

[Burninglight]

Have you read the forum guidelines and rules? I don't know why Evangelist's account was disabled, but I am puzzled as to why you seem to take it so personally.

I don't take it personally. I thank you for posting the link for the rules. I read the infraction levels, and I'll be sure to keep within them. What you posted are general guidelines. Christians learning about Islam are not expected to promote it. If they are, than I can see falling short of that, but that is not a rule; it is a one of the purposes of the forum and that is understandable and to be expected.

[Burninglight]

Get real, surely you can do better than question that I was a Christian.

Yes, that is true, but you missed the main point. That is you would never get bumped from a Christian forum for posting the way you do especially by me.

[Hamza Asadullah]

I have never stated that I was a Biblical Christian or an evangelist. I simply accept the title given me by Muslims. I don't really know what I am; I just know who I am in Christ. I have been given different titles by different people. Some titles have been disrespectful.
I hope that answers your question. By the way, the discussion had been who Evangelist was in a previous life time on the forum not whether I am one. Evangelist apparently was killed on this forum, and no one can tell me who killed him or why, and I am told I don't answer questions. It was stated or implied that I am him resurrected from the dead.
Peace

You did tell me you were a Biblical Christian and tha you want to distance yourself from the paganistic beliefs of the Catholics and the deviant beliefs of the Jehova witnesses. But in reality you are also not wanting to let go of paganistic beliefs which permeated into Christianity by the corrupters of the true message of Jesus which was to establish the true oneness of God. This one in 3 manifestation is nothing but paganism disguised. It is the same concept as the Hindu Brahman God who is also one but manifests himself in many ways.

[Abz2000]

Yes, that is true, but you missed the main point. That is you would never get bumped from a Christian forum for posting the way you do especially by me.

it's not as simple as you described it bro, check this out, she came to Islam after seeing the vast discrepancies, and yes, she was an administrator on a coptic christian forum who got booted off just for visiting the Muslim forums, but she had seen the contrast, she was even being red dotted here as she spoke lol:



and there's some good advice for you here:

[MustafaMc]

That is you would never get bumped from a Christian forum for posting the way you do especially by me.

No, I got your point and that may or may not be the case. Do you know of a Christian forum where comparative religion is openly discussed like here? If so, I may visit it myself. Personally, I don't go out looking to talk to people about Islam, unless I have an opportunity and I sense an opening. I have traveled by air and spent the entire flight talking to a Christian about religion and I interact with Christians on FaceBook like the woman from my high school class. I believe that your presence here on this forum is another of those opportunities and I welcome sincere interactions with others such as yourself. If you were insincere and prideful, then our replies would offend you and you would leave or you would come back and try to convince us that we are wrong.

I believe that you are searching for the Truth, but at the same time not wanting to let go of your fundamental beliefs about Jesus. I don't intend to offend you, but this reminds me of Linus and his security blanket on Peanuts/Charlie Brown. Why would a Christian reject the doctrine of free gift of salvation for the uncertainty on Judgment Day offered by Islam? My FB friend asked me, "What if you are wrong about Jesus Christ?" and I replied, "Well this question goes both ways because in Islam it is a major sin to say that Jesus is the Son of God." In the end we must each make our choice and then live and die with the consequences thereof. Everyone in my family thinks I made the wrong decision, but I know that I must give an account for my own life on Judgement Day and that I would be best being true to what I believe is the Truth. You too must make the same decision to hold onto your security blanket of Jesus' supposed sacrifice on the cross or let go of it and, like the Star Trek phrase, "Boldly go where no man has gone before."

[Burninglight]

Everyone in my family thinks I made the wrong decision, but I know that I must give an account for my own life on Judgement Day and that I would be best being true to what I believe is the Truth. You too must make the same decision to hold onto your security blanket of Jesus' supposed sacrifice on the cross or let go of it and, like the Star Trek phrase, "Boldly go where no man has gone before."

I think you have a prtty good understanding of both our situations. Like you said. How can I let go of the free gift of salvation for the uncertainty of judgment. Even Abu Bakr said, "I Wouldn't trust the Makr of Allah even if I had one foot in paradise and one on earth" PLZ correct this quote if it is wrong. I don't remmember the source, and don't want to spend an hour looking for it.

No Muslim knows if Allah will grant him or her eternal life in paradise, but I already know i have it by faith and God's grace. Moreover, I know Muslims have the same struggles in every day life as Christians. I also know that Muslims are not doing more good works or deeds than true Biblical Christians. So the only difference between us if our good deeds are equal is our believe about Jesus.

If Jesus did not come and die for our sin, Muslims were right and Christianity was the most elaborate contrived fabrication of all life's history; it is a blotch on mankind and a black hole that spans through the time and fabric of all societies in times past & to date that sucks away the mulitude forever, but if Jesus is the fufillment of prohecy as given in the Bible, then Muslims are looking at a Christless eternity for they have no justification for sin past sin present or future sin. Jesus has fullfilled over 300 prophecies already. Christians are sure that His death and resurrection were one of them as stated in both the OT and NT! it looks like we are all free to choose and choose we must, but we are never free from the consequences of our choices.

Peace

[MustafaMc]

I think you have a prtty good understanding of both our situations. Like you said. How can I let go of the free gift of salvation for the uncertainty of judgment. Even Abu Bakr said, "I Wouldn't trust the Makr of Allah even if I had one foot in paradise and one on earth" PLZ correct this quote if it is wrong. I don't remmember the source, and don't want to spend an hour looking for it.

According to my Arabic-English dictionary, the word 'makr' means to plan a scheme, punish a deceiver, contrive a plot; however, if you go to answering-islam it defines makr as 'deception'. I found this site http://www.onislam.net/english/shari...criticism.html that says, Abu Bakr as-Siddiq used to say: "I would not feel safe from Allah's deep devising (makr) even if one of my feet was in paradise". Why did Abu Bakr say that? Because he thought that he does not deserve paradise as a guaranteed reward from Allah. This is Abu Bakr about whom the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "If the faith of Abu Bakr is put on one side of the scale and the faith of the nation of believers is put on the other side, the side of Abu Bakr will outweigh the other side". My understanding from this explanation is that, even though Abu Bakr was one of 10 people who were said to be of the people of Paradise, he did not feel secure in that promise in the sense that Christians feel secure in their salvation. So it seems you were pretty close in your understanding that the hadith referred to 'the uncertainty of judgment'.

No Muslim knows if Allah will grant him or her eternal life in paradise, but I already know i have it by faith and God's grace. Moreover, I know Muslims have the same struggles in every day life as Christians. I also know that Muslims are not doing more good works or deeds than true Biblical Christians. So the only difference between us if our good deeds are equal is our believe about Jesus.

Yes, Muslims can't answer, "Are you saved?" in the affirmative, but my opinion is that the Christian confidence in their salvation is not as certain as they would like to think. For one thing consider the significance of the question that the Quran brings forward about the crucifixion of Jesus which is the core of Christian redemption. Again I mean no offence, but what the Christian plan of salvation brings to my mind is a twist on the 'Get out of Jail free' card in the game Monopoly.
Attachment 4638

If Jesus did not come and die for our sin, Muslims were right and Christianity was the most elaborate contrived fabrication of all life's history; it is a blotch on mankind and a black hole that spans through the time and fabric of all societies in times past & to date that sucks away the mulitude forever, but if Jesus is the fufillment of prohecy as given in the Bible, then Muslims are looking at a Christless eternity for they have no justification for sin past sin present or future sin. Jesus has fullfilled over 300 prophecies already. Christians are sure that His death and resurrection were one of them as stated in both the OT and NT! it looks like we are all free to choose and choose we must, but we are never free from the consequences of our choices.

Peace

Another way to look at the issue is that in the Quran, Satan promised to lead astray mankind after he was cast out of the Garden when He said: "Do you see? This is the one whom You have honoured above me! If You will but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway - all but a few!" One could consider that either the Christian or the Muslim has been led astray. From my perspective the Christian confidence in their salvation is an appealing point, but perhaps it should indicate the confidence that the Muslim has in Islam that he would choose the uncertainty of Judgement Day as taught in Islam over the 'blessed assurance, Jesus is mine' confidence offered by Christianity. The Muslim life is a balance between hope in the mercy of Allah and fear of His wrath.

[Hamza Asadullah]

I think you have a prtty good understanding of both our situations. Like you said. How can I let go of the free gift of salvation for the uncertainty of judgment. Even Abu Bakr said, "I Wouldn't trust the Makr of Allah even if I had one foot in paradise and one on earth" PLZ correct this quote if it is wrong. I don't remmember the source, and don't want to spend an hour looking for it.

No Muslim knows if Allah will grant him or her eternal life in paradise, but I already know i have it by faith and God's grace. Moreover, I know Muslims have the same struggles in every day life as Christians. I also know that Muslims are not doing more good works or deeds than true Biblical Christians. So the only difference between us if our good deeds are equal is our believe about Jesus.

If Jesus did not come and die for our sin, Muslims were right and Christianity was the most elaborate contrived fabrication of all life's history; it is a blotch on mankind and a black hole that spans through the time and fabric of all societies in times past & to date that sucks away the mulitude forever, but if Jesus is the fufillment of prohecy as given in the Bible, then Muslims are looking at a Christless eternity for they have no justification for sin past sin present or future sin. Jesus has fullfilled over 300 prophecies already. Christians are sure that His death and resurrection were one of them as stated in both the OT and NT! it looks like we are all free to choose and choose we must, but we are never free from the consequences of our choices.

Peace

The Bible CLEARLY rejects the doctrine of ‘atonement’. We are responsible for our own sins:

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deuteronomy 24:16)

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:20)

But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. (Jeremiah 31:30)

Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert. (Psalms 28:4)

According to [their] deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. (Isaiah 59:18)

For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands. (Jeremiah 25:14)

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Matthew 16:27)

7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8 He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:7-8)

You claim Jesus wanted to die for the world? Wrong he clearly did NOT wish to die on the cross. For, when he knew that his enemies were plotting against his life, he declared that his "soul was exceedingly sorrowful unto death", he asked his disciples to keep watch over him to protect him from his enemies and he prayed to God, "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee; take away this cup from me; nevertheless not what 1 will, but what Thou wilt." (Mark 14:36)


Francis David by W.C Gannett correctly states concering the troubling and disturbing concept of blood atonement:

“The church`s God son who is supposed to have been born of the substance of God from the beginning of eternity is nowhere mentioned in the scriptures nor the God son who would be second person of the trinity descended from heaven and become flesh this is only human invention and superstition as such should be discarded.”

So NOWHERE is it explicitley mentioned ANYWHERE in the teachings of Jesus or the Bible of the blood atonement of Christ being necessery for the abolition of the "stain" of the original sin upon mankind.

Arthur Weigall rightfully puts the blood atonement of sin as:

“We can no longer accept the appalling theological doctrine that for some mystic reason a propitiatory sacrifice was necessary. It outrages either our conception of God as Almighty or else our conception of Him as All-Loving. The famous Dr. Cruden believed that for the purpose of this sacrifice ‘Christ suffered dreadful pains inflicted by God’, and this, of course, is a standpoint which nauseates the modern mind and which may well be termed a hideous doctrine, not unconnected with the sadistic tendencies of primitive human nature. Actually, it is of pagan origin, being, indeed, perhaps the most obvious relic of heathendom in the Faith”.

Just like the trinity and theotokas the blood atonement doctrine is a blasphemy against the justice of God. A very troubling, disturbing and cruel concept unfounded by the teachings of ANY prophet or Jesus not is it mentioned in the teachings of the Christian deity or the Bible.

How could the sacrifice of an innocent man wash off the sins of others? God Almighty is never unjust even in least degree, how this injustice and unkindness can ever be attributed to Him is unthinkable.

God Almighty is Absolute and Merciful enough to forgive the sins, even without sacrifices.


Ulfat Aziz- Us- Samad puts this dogma very well:

This dogma is not only a denial of the mercy of God but also of His justice. To demand the price of blood in order to forgive the sins of men is to show a complete lack of mercy, and to punish a man who is not guilty for the sins of others… We fail to see how the suffering and death of one man can wipe out the sins of others. It sounds something like the physician breaking his own head to cure the headache of his patients. The idea of substitutionary or vicarious sacrifice is illogical, meaningless and unjust.

I would like to conclude with Tom Harpers statement:

Perhaps I am lacking in piety or some basic instinct, but I know I am not alone in finding the idea of Jesus’ death as atonement for the sins of all humanity on one level bewildering and on the other morally repugnant. Jesus never to my knowledge said anything to indicate that forgiveness from God could only be granted after or because of the cross.

[Hamza Asadullah]

THE BLOOD ATONEMENT OF CHRIST IS NOT TAUGHT BY ANY PROPHET, JESUS OR THE BIBLE!

How is is possible that one of the most fundamental teachings of Christianity was not explicitly taught by Jesus or ANYWHERE in the Bible?

The fundamentals of Islam are clearly backed up by the Qur'an and Sunnah and are consitant with what is contained within them but WHY is it that the 3 most fundamental concepts in Christianity being the trinity, the theotokos and the blood atonement of Christ are NOT taught by ANY prophet, nor are they mentioned ANYWHERE in the Bible nor are they taught by Jesus Christ himself nor did he EVER even mention them!

Did the Bible and Jesus forget to mention such fundamental concepts?

Would Jesus or the Bible leave their people so confused about such fundamental concepts which are central to the foundations of Christianity? Or was it that these concepts were only created hundreds of years after Jesus created by theologians? Clearly the latter seems to be more consistant with historical referances as well as the fact that the concepts are NOT actually taught by any prophet, Jesus or in the bible.


The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 14:33 that:

“... God is NOT the author of confusion ...”

This verse PROVES that God would NEVER confuse his people or keep such fundamental concepts a mystery only to be created by theologians hundreds of years after Jesus.

Therefore it is clear from the teachings of Jesus that the teaching of the blood atonement is NOT consistant with any of the teachings of the Prophets, Jesus or in the Bible and all you have provided is a single verse that Jesus - in order to take them out of darkness into light,- incurred the wrath of the evildoers and was tortured by them; but it does NOT say or imply that his death was an atonement for the sins of others and that only those who believe in his blood would be forgiven.

In regards to sin being a personal responsibility then Allah the Almighty explicitly emphasizes that one’s own sin is his sole responsibility, and should not be borne by another. The Holy Qur’an states:

“Say: ‘Shall I seek for (my) Cherisher other than Allah, when He is the Cherisher of all things (that exist)? Every soul draws the need of its acts on none but itself. No bearer of burdens call bear the burden of another. Your goal in the end is towards God: He will tell you the truth of the things wherein you disputed.” (Qur’an 6:164)

You talk about personal responsibility co-existing with the atonement of Christ then tell us how is it possible that an unborn baby that was not baptized before it's death is destined to Hell FOREVER just because it had a "default stain of sin" upon it from the first man on earth? What did the unborn baby do to deserve having such a "stain" upon it that had caused it to be destined to burn in Hell forever?

Surely every soul is responsible for their OWN sin then what did the unborn baby do to deserve such a cruel destiny when it had not done ANYTHING to deserve it? It had not even been given a chance to be born let alone having to suffer a cruel destiny of eternal torture just because its father thousands of years before committed a sin which it "inherited by default". In what way was it responsible for this "default stain of sin which it inherited"?


If we are all responsible for our own sins then WHY does an unborn baby have to suffer for a sin it was NOT responsible for?


According to the Bible:

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” (Deuteronomy 24:16)

Therefore my position is that Jesus and the Bible ONLY teach personal responsibility for our own sins and do NOT even mention ANYTHING about the blood atonement of Christ being necessery for the atonement of the inherited sin of mankind, which i have proven to you.


So the Bible from the teachings of God and Jesus along with the Qur'an teaches that we are responsible for our OWN sins and it certainly does NOT teach ANYTHING about Christ's blood being necessery for the atonement of the original sin which has been inherited by the whole of mankind and that baptizing is the ONLY way to get rid of such a sin.

[Hamza Asadullah]

It is Paul who had CLEARLY abrogated and contradicted MANY of the teachings of Jesus and the laws of Moses.

In any society, where justice is one of the highest valued morals, killing an innocent man (Jesus) to wash away the sins of the guilty would be condemned as immoral, yet billions of people rejoice over this "gift" of injustice! Once again, the source of conflict is Paul and not Jesus. Jesus never talked about atonement or a "free-ride" through the blood of an innocent man.

On the contrary he said, "If you would enter life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17). It was Paul who brought the concept of the Original Sin into Christianity as you have proven by your posts.

Jesus CLEARLY contradicts Paul. Not only that, the Old Testament ALSO contradicts Paul as well:


Ezekiel 18:20-22

[20] The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

[21] "But if a wicked man turns away from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

[22] None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness which he has done he shall live. 2 Chronicles 25:4

[4] But he did not put their children to death, according to what is written in the law, in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, or the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall die for his own sin."

It is Paul who actually transformed the strict monotheism that Jesus proclaimed into a religion that is closer to Greek mythology, than it is towards either Judaism or Islam. Things like the "only begotten son", atonement for the sins of humanity etc. were all alien to the strict monotheism of Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad and ALL the prophets of Israel (Peace be upon them all).

The great theologian Soren Kierkegaard says regarding Paul: "In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther. in his reformation, failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down. making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ"

Paul is claiming that this ideology is supported by the scriptures, and in this case he is making reference to the Hebrew Scriptures, or The Tanach. However, one will find that this idea of an innocent man, in this case Jesus, having to pay for the sins of others is NOWHERE to be found in the Hebrew Bible. In actuality, it is the exact opposite that is found in the Hebrew Scriptures;



“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. “But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statuses and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him; in his righteousness that he hath done, he shall live.” Ezekiel 18:20-22

Without question, this passage runs in direct contrast with what we find in the teachings of Paul, and it also proves that Paul’s claim that his teachings are in accordance with the scriptures is TOTALLY FALSE.

The spilling of innocent blood for the redemption of mankind is a belief that has its roots in paganism and was adopted into Christianity by none other than Paul himself which was then solidified as dogma at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

Blood atonement was NEVER a teaching of Jesus, nor did he EVER make mention of it.


the Bible is quite clear on the issue of sins being forgiven at the spilling of blood;


“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifice unto Me?, saith the Lord. I am full of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks or of lamb or of he-goats.” Isaiah 1:11



The Bible itself actually makes it quite clear that forgiveness from sins comes from one’s sincerity in seeking forgiveness from Almighty God and from obedience to Him;


“Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High” Psalms 50:13-14

“I desired not sacrifices; I commanded not your fathers, when I stretched forth my hand to bring them out of Egypt, to offer burnt -- offerings to me, but only to obey my voice.” Jeremiah 7:21-22

And as for the innocent being made to pay for the sins of others, the Bible is also quite clear in that respect as well;


“And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, ‘Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.’ And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, ‘Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if Thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of Thy book which Thou hast written.’ And the LORD said unto Moses, ‘Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.’” Exodus 32:30-33


And from the words of Jesus himself one can also conclude that his true teachings where in perfect harmony with these mentioned passages;


“For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.” Matthew 5:20


“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” Matthew 6:14-15


SO MANY examples can be used from the Bible that one is hard pressed in understanding how a Christian can claim to adhere to the Bible, and yet follow a totally opposite course. Here is yet further examples of what the Bible says;


“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children; neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” Deuteronomy 24:16


“But the children of the murderers he put not to death; according to that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, as the Lord commanded, saying, ‘The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall die for his own sin.’” 2 Kings 14:6


“But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.” Jeremiah 31:30


Again, the Bible states clearly how salvation can be achieved;


“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14


“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:7



This is clear proof from the teachings of Jesus himself that Jesus taught repentance, forgiveness and love to the Children of Israel only, and certainly NOT of blood atonement and original sin.

[Abz2000]

i'll add another which i found enlightening, it made me more willing to advise despite my own faults:

Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life;
the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezekiel 3

are you trying to imply that Jesus pbuh did not deliver the warning to the children of Israel?
because i believe he did.

[Burninglight]

Another way to look at the issue is that in the Quran, Satan promised to lead astray mankind after he was cast out of the Garden when He said: "Do you see? This is the one whom You have honoured above me! If You will but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway - all but a few!" One could consider that either the Christian or the Muslim has been led astray. From my perspective the Christian confidence in their salvation is an appealing point, but perhaps it should indicate the confidence that the Muslim has in Islam that he would choose the uncertainty of Judgement Day as taught in Islam over the 'blessed assurance, Jesus is mine' confidence offered by Christianity. The Muslim life is a balance between hope in the mercy of Allah and fear of His wrath.

Paul said "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" He didn't say work for it. Salvation is something no one can ever earn or deserve. It is a gift of God's mercy to us.

What Paul (God's apostle) meant by work out your own salvation is that once we receive God's gift we have something to work out, but until we receive it, we have nothing to work out, because we aren't meeting God on His terms. This is what I understand from Paul and that makes sense. IOW, how can I ever do enough good to merit God's mercy? I could never be sure I did enough. As a Christians I know my sin is coverd by the blood of Christ, but I know i will still face a works judgment on if I will receive rewards or suffer loss for burnt works. But without Christ and by negelecting so great a Salvation how is anyone going to escape the judgment of God if he doesn't accept God's "free get out of hell card" you spoke of?

There is noting we can do to make up for the blood sin trail we left in our life, God's mercy only comes through Jesus the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, but only for those who believe on His name the way the Bible teaches. Why do you think the children of Israel had to pick a prefect lamb to sacarafice for their sins? These things could never cleanse from sin, because they were just a shadow. Look at the passover, They put the blood of a lamb on the door post so the death angel would pass them by. That too was a shadow of Jesus who is prophecied to be out passover lamb so the death angel will not claim us for eternal death. You know this stories friend.

You can make the Bible say whatever you want, but in the end we will face judgment. Jesus said you will all die in your sin unless you believe I am He. Jesus said you must eat my flesh and drink my blood or you will have no life in you. Jesus is the bread that came down from heaven. Man doesn't live by bread alone but by every world that proceeds from the mouth of God. Every word that proceeds from the mouth of God as pretains to paradise for us is only Jesus; otherwise, your on your on and pay for your own sin that you tried to make up for on your own, but couldn't, and according to the Bible you cannot count on the mercy of God, because of wanting his mercy on different and strange terms and not His.

IMO, This message above is the gospel of Jesus and it was never lost!

[MustafaMc]

Paul said "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" He didn't say work for it. Salvation is something no one can ever earn or deserve. It is a gift of God's mercy to us.

Yes, Paul was all about faith and the Bible actually reveals a most serious conflict between his teachings and that of Jesus' disciples including Peter and James.

IOW, how can I ever do enough good to merit God's mercy? I could never be sure I did enough.

Is that how you perceive Muslims? We acknowledge we are at the Mercy of Allah (swt) and we constantly pray for His Forgiveness. The difference between us is that Muslims strive to be obedient servants of Allah (swt); whereas, Christians don't know how to follow what Jesus taught because so much of it has been lost to antiquity. Christians are left with Paul's doctrine of faith in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection and WWJD, 'What Would Jesus Do?' In contrast, Muslims live by WDMD, 'What Did Muhammad Do?'

As a Christians I know my sin is coverd by the blood of Christ, but I know i will still face a works judgment on if I will receive rewards or suffer loss for burnt works. But without Christ and by negelecting so great a Salvation how is anyone going to escape the judgment of God if he doesn't accept God's "free get out of hell card" you spoke of?

Have you taken a Monopoly $20 bill to McDonald's and tried to buy a Big Mac, fries and a coke lately? Well, my belief is that what Christians rely upon for their salvation will be shown to be a myth on Judgment Day and that their 'Get out of Hell Free' card will be reject by Allah like the $20 at McDonald's. You will be left standing at the Mercy of Allah as I will be, but I will have my testimony of "Ashadu an la ilaha il'Allah wa Muhammadan abdahu wa rasul'Allah", my salah, sawm, zakat and hajj that you will not have. My prayer is that Allah (swt) will judge me to be a sincere and obedient servant and that He will have mercy on me and forgive me as He has promised in the Quran.

your on your on and pay for your own sin that you tried to make up for on your own, but couldn't, and according to the Bible you cannot count on the mercy of God, because of wanting his mercy on different and strange terms and not His.

IMO, This message above is the gospel of Jesus and it was never lost!

You illustrate the point I have made elsewhere in a writing, 'Atonement vs. Forgiveness'. There is absolutely no concept of forgiveness in Christianity only atonement through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The doctrine of atonement is in direct conflict with what Jesus taught regarding forgiveness. You basically say that what Jesus taught regarding forgiveness and mercy was just for funsies and the real message of the gospel was reserved for Paul to later receive as a revelation and preach to the Gentiles. Jesus gave the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector praying in the temple (Luke 18:9-14) with the tax collector praying ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ and Jesus implied that he was the one who went home justified. This parable is a clear illustration of forgiveness as is the parable of the Prodigal Son and no where is there any hint of atonement.

Again, you follow Paul and I follow Muhammad.

[Burninglight]

Have you taken a Monopoly $20 bill to McDonald's and tried to buy a Big Mac, fries and a coke lately?

They won't take it, I am sure of it, but they might take the "get out of hell free" offer.

This parable is a clear illustration of forgiveness as is the parable of the Prodigal Son and no where is there any hint of atonement.

Again, you follow Paul and I follow Muhammad

I would be lying if I said, "I don't see your point" If you see it that way, then I don't understand how you can judge for that, but I am thinking that Jesus meant that as an attiutude we should have like the sinner. No one knew of Christ's death at the time, because his time hadn't come so all things went as the tradition had been. There was no counting on the blood of Christ. But Paul's explanation makes sense when you read Isaiah 53.

This really gets confusing and complicated when you read into what was written different than Paul. Yes, I see if Paul didn't come into the equation, it would be a lot easier to pull Christians into Islam, but God allowed him to get into the Bible and he does act as a powerful buffer.

You are the type of person that can make a good argument for Christianity if you wanted. You are gifted at apologetics so I know this and take that along with what you say into consideration.

[MustafaMc]

They won't take it, I am sure of it, but they might take the "get out of hell free" offer.
I would be lying if I said, "I don't see your point" If you see it that way, then I don't understand how you can judge for that, but I am thinking that Jesus meant that as an attiutude we should have like the sinner. No one knew of Christ's death at the time, because his time hadn't come so all things went as the tradition had been. There was no counting on the blood of Christ. But Paul's explanation makes sense when you read Isaiah 53.

What you wrote reminded me of the sermon I heard by Les Feldick as also found in "Paul's Gospel" written in the 1950s by William Newell, Someone may say, "Is not Christ the Great Teacher?" In a sense this is true; but in a real sense Christ is the Person taught about, rather than teaching in the Gospels. ... The twelve Apostles were to be the "witnesses" (Acts 1:22) of Christ’s resurrection—that is, of the fact of it. ... But unto none of these twelve Apostles did God reveal the great body of doctrine for this Age. Just as God chose Moses to be the revelator to Israel for the Ten Commandments and all connected with the Law dispensation, so God chose Saul of Tarsus to be the revelator and unfolder of those mighty truths connected with our Lord’s death, burial, and resurrection and His ascended Person. Mr. Newell and Mr. Feldick boldly spoke the truth regarding to seminal origins for Christianity as we know it today. It seems that you also grasp the significance of that and you have the courage to admit it.:statisfie

You are the type of person that can make a good argument for Christianity if you wanted. You are gifted at apologetics so I know this and take that along with what you say into consideration.

No, I couldn't argue for something I did not believe to be true. My abilities, or lack thereof, is as Allah (swt) has willed. If any good can be found in what I write, then surely it is from Allah (swt) and if any error is found, then surely it is from me. It seems that you discount what I say because you perceive that I am a good writer/debater and you feel leery of me because you think 'I could sell ice to an Eskimo' so to speak. I only ask that you evaluate my words according to your own intellect; however, I realize that Christianity is not about logic, but rather faith in what you have been taught is the truth and about their 'personal experiences with Jesus'. I sense that Christians, in general, mistrust their own abilty to think logically about religious matters.

[Abz2000]

You are the type of person that can make a good argument for Christianity if you wanted.

anyone can make an argument for anything they wanted just by blocking out pertinent facts, but it would be quite futile if they didn't believe it themselves.

[MustafaMc]

anyone can make an argument for anything they wanted just by blocking out pertinent facts, but it would be quite futile if they didn't believe it themselves.

You are exactly correct that a good debater could argue either side of an argument even if he didn't believe it to be true. That is called playing 'the Devil's advocate'. According to Wikipedia, In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. I could not argue for something I did not believe to be true, I would instead rather remain silent, insh'Allah. On this forum most of my posts have been supportive of Islam against Christianity and of Creation against Evolution. My struggle here is for the Truth as I understand it and against what I believe is false. Again what little knowledge I have is by the will of Allah (swt).

[Burninglight]

anyone can make an argument for anything they wanted just by blocking out pertinent facts, but it would be quite futile if they didn't believe it themselves

That is so true, but what good does it do them if they believe themsleves if its all a lie? Look you can show me things that appear wrong about Christianity, and I might even see your point, and I can do the same about Islam, but in the end neither of us are convinced. Why? It is because a man convince against his will is of the same opinion still. This is most unfortunate for mankind. Don't you think? Only our Creator knows what it takes to convinced us. So in the end, we are all at the Mercy of our Creator. Every Christians and every muslims will agree; don't you agree?

[Burninglight]

You are exactly correct that a good debater could argue either side of an argument even if he didn't believe it to be true. That is called playing 'the Devil's advocate'. According to Wikipedia, In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. I could not argue for something I did not believe to be true, I would instead rather remain silent, insh'Allah. On this forum most of my posts have been supportive of Islam against Christianity and of Creation against Evolution. My struggle here is for the Truth as I understand it and against what I believe is false. Again what little knowledge I have is by the will of Allah (swt).

Did you think that I am playing the devils advocate? IOW, not being convinced fully of what I say?

[MustafaMc]

Did you think that I am playing the devils advocate? IOW, not being convinced fully of what I say?

No, I believe that you believe in what you are arguing for.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Did you think that I am playing the devils advocate? IOW, not being convinced fully of what I say?

It is very apparent from many of your answers that you have many doubts and unanswered questions regarding your beliefs but you try your best to block them out and not think about them too much but these doubts and unanswered questions will keep eating away at you. How long can you continue to reconcile your beliefs in your mind when you know they are not backed up by the words and teachings of ANY Prophet, Christ or God but that you take your false beliefs regarding Christ and God from the Gospels of which Christian scholars have confirmed have no weight due to their unknown origins, compilers and writers and unathenticity. Is that where you take your beliefs from when the words and teachings of God and Christ are clear.

You will never be satisfied with such false and blasphemous beliefs from the words and teachings of unknown authors who never met nor had anything to do with Christ hundreds of years after Christ. No wonder so many Christians question and reject such beliefs. Most Christian converts to Islam were exactly like you. They tried to show how much they believe ut the doubts and unanswered questions got worse and worse until they could no longer simply ignore it or block it out. ow can any sane man be satisfied and content with putting their fath into the Gospels?

My friend it will keep eating away at you and your heart will never be satisfied until you have rejected such paganistic and erroneous beliefs taught by those who had nothing to do with Christ or God. Your heart will ONLY ever be satisfied with true monotheism and in the true message that every Prophet came to establish that there is NO ONE worthy of worship except God and that ONLY he ALONE is worthy of all worship - NOT his creations or manifestations.

[Burninglight]

No, I believe that you believe in what you are arguing for.

Thank you for that. Some think that Islam is eating away at me and that I am not fully convinced of what I believe. When in reality, Islam is strengthening my belief that Jesus is coming back to confirm the message of the cross! It is written: "There is no remission for sin without the shedding of blood" It could NOT be just anyone's blood; it had to be Jesus'

[Predator]

Thank you for that. Some think that Islam is eating away at me and that I am not fully convinced of what I believe. When in reality, Islam is strengthening my belief that Jesus is coming back to confirm the message of the cross! It is written: "There is no remission for sin without the shedding of blood" It could NOT be just anyone's blood; it had to be Jesus'

He wont come to confirm message of cross , he will come to break the cross

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 34, Number 425:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.

He will fight the people for the cause of Islam and will destroy the anti-christ.

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 658:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said "How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel

[Hamza Asadullah]

Thank you for that. Some think that Islam is eating away at me and that I am not fully convinced of what I believe. When in reality, Islam is strengthening my belief that Jesus is coming back to confirm the message of the cross! It is written: "There is no remission for sin without the shedding of blood" It could NOT be just anyone's blood; it had to be Jesus'

According to who? Paul? You follow Paul over the teachings and words of God and Christ. Your heart will never be satisfied with such beliefs that have NO basis in any of the teachings of God and Christ.

Your faith depends on the Gospels and the Gospels have been confirmed by Christian scholars themselves as being EXTREMELY unreliable because it is not know when they were written nor is it known who they were written by.

[MustafaMc]

Thank you for that. Some think that Islam is eating away at me and that I am not fully convinced of what I believe.

At one time I thought you were starting to see the light of Islam, but I now see that you are resolute on remaining a Christian. There is no compulsion in religion and you are free of course to believe as you wish, that is unless you are 'put to the question'.

If 'put to the question' like on the movie "Goya's Ghosts" I am sure you would confess to being a Muslim in secret like Ines did to being a secret Judaizer or like Lorenzo signed the so-called confession “I, Lorenzo Casamares, hereby confess that contrary to my human appearance, I’m in fact the illegitimate son of a chimpanzee and an orangutan, and I have schemed to join the Church in order to do harm to the Holy Office.” I don't think you are in danger of being 'put to the question' by Muslims though like the Church did to Jews in Spain.:nervous:

[Hamza Asadullah]

Imagine having an account written about someones life and teachings etc and upon investigation it becomes clear that the author is completely unknown and so is the origin and date of when it was written. On top of that it has many contradictions, inconsistencies, additions and deletions all of which are confirmed by scholars themselves.

NO court would NEVER deem such an account as reliable evidence but it would be thrown out of a court as being extremely unreliable, weak and consisting of far too many inconsistencies, contradictions, adfitions and deletions to be seen as having any real credibility as evidence of someones life. Especially as it was written hundreds of years after the demise of that person mostly through what people may have heard about him etc.

So it may have some truths but many lies. Because it was so easily susceptible to bein changed, added to and taken away from that makes it even more unreliable to give any real stamp of authenticity. That is exactly how the gospels can be described.

At the time the Bible was compiled there were many disregarded. Not on religious grounds but according to the desire of those who compiled it.

[Burninglight]

At one time I thought you were starting to see the light of Islam, but I now see that you are resolute on remaining a Christian. There is no compulsion in religion and you are free of course to believe as you wish, that is unless you are 'put to the question'.

If 'put to the question' like on the movie "Goya's Ghosts" I am sure you would confess to being a Muslim in secret like Ines did to being a secret Judaizer or like Lorenzo signed the so-called confession “I, Lorenzo Casamares, hereby confess that contrary to my human appearance, I’m in fact the illegitimate son of a chimpanzee and an orangutan, and I have schemed to join the Church in order to do harm to the Holy Office.” I don't think you are in danger of being 'put to the question' by Muslims though like the Church did to Jews in Spain.:nervous:

If we can call God Allah; then, I can call myself a Christian muslim. That doesn't mean I was seeing any light in Islam for myself as a religion, but I have gained a greater appreciation for the great religion of Islam and the prophet Muhammad. Especially when I can see from the Bible God's blessings on his life. I don't think the world sees how great and powerful Islam is. I do!

I just see Biblical Christianity as the light for my life, because there is no other name given whereby we might be saved but Jesus Christ. I don't want to burn in hell. People look at my life and tell me I am such a good person, because of all my good deeds, and I have stayed married to the same wife and don't stumble people with my life style, but I can see myself the real sinner inside.

I know how miserable and short I fall of God's glory. I see myself as not even qualified to be a slave of God; however, it gives me an appreciation for the gospel (Means good news) that I can put on Christ as a garment like the Muslim women wear the burka and Hijiab. I am covered from head to toe in the righteousness of Christ and stand prefect and without fault before God and without sin, totally pleasing and acceptable not because of what I have done, it is because of what He has done for me. I accept His gift and now I am made right by God's grace through my faith in His work and he is transforming me on a daily basis to be more conformed to the image of His son. It is written: "The path of the just shines more and more until the prefect day (Noon)"

[MustafaMc]

If we can call God Allah; then, I can call myself a Christian muslim.

That is not what makes one a Muslim. A Muslim is one who believes in One God without father, mother, son or daughter and who submits to the will of Allah (swt) as revealed through Muhammad (saaws) by following his Sunnah. Christian muslim - jumbo shrimp - retarded genius - gigantic midget = oxymoron.

[Burninglight]

That is not what makes one a Muslim. A Muslim is one who believes in One God without father, mother, son or daughter and who submits to the will of Allah (swt) as revealed through Muhammad (saaws) by following his Sunnah. Christian muslim - jumbo shrimp - retarded genius - gigantic midget = oxymoron

Christians muslim is not an oxymoron. Plz note that it is not an upper case m! God does not have a father or mother. But the son of man has a father like all the prophets whose father is God including Adam. God has no mother. God is God and God alone; He has no partners! But my Creator created me with His word and that word is Jesus! The Bible says God is Spirit! The father of lights!~ He is Holy. He is the Holy Spirit. The Bible doesn't teach me about trinity, so I am not prepared to discuss something I don't understand, but I am not going to say something is not from God, because I cannot understand it or because the Quran says it is so or any other religions book. "Tawhid" is not written in the Quran does that mean God is not one?

[Burninglight]

Imagine having an account written about someones life and teachings etc and upon investigation it becomes clear that the author is completely unknown and so is the origin and date of when it was written. On top of that it has many contradictions, inconsistencies, additions and deletions all of which are confirmed by scholars themselves.

Just because the author is not known doesn't mean truth hasn't been spoken. The Bible isn't as bad a you make out. It is consistant in reference to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. None the Bible contradict Jesus' message: "I AM the Way, truth and Life... No comes to God except through me... I am the door... Before Abraham is I AM." Jesus does a very very good job in what He alludes to as far as I am concerned. This is all confirmed by the prophets. Immanuel (God with us) He will be called Mighty God and Prince of Peace! Get the picture? He is coming back and you will see for yourself what these words look like. I say glory to the all one true father God in heaven in Jesus' Name!

[Scimitar]

Christians muslim is not an oxymoron. Plz note that it is not an upper case m! God does not have a father or mother. But the son of man has a father like all the prophets whose father is God including Adam. God has no mother. God is God and God alone; He has no partners! But my Creator created me with His word and that word is Jesus! The Bible says God is Spirit! The father of lights!~ He is Holy. He is the Holy Spirit. The Bible doesn't teach me about trinity, so I am not prepared to discuss something I don't understand, but I am not going to say something is not from God, because I cannot understand it or because the Quran says it is so or any other religions book. "Tawhid" is not written in the Quran does that mean God is not one?

I highlighted the part I need clarification on. If I understand you correctly, you are born from Jesus? He didn't give birth though.. he was a man :S

If what you say is a metaphorical explanation, why not be clear about it?

Tawhid: "Say (O Muhammad): "He is God, (the) One, The Self-Sufficient Master, He begets not, nor was He begotten; And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." (Quran: 112 // 1-4)

I don't know what else to tell you except, The Islamic doctrine of Tawhid puts forth a God whose rule, will or law are comprehensive and extend to all creatures and to all aspects of the human life. Early Muslims understood religion to thus cover the domains of state, law and society. It is believed that the entirety of the Islamic teaching rests on the principle of Tawhid.

Scimi

[Burninglight]

I understand that the Bible carries an offensive message to most people, but the Quran doesn't!

[Scimitar]

No that's not what I meant bro BurningBright....

When I am explaining my beliefs to someone who is enquiring, I try not to use metaphors - so as to avoid confusion.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend, hope you can forgive.

Scimi

[Hamza Asadullah]

Just because the author is not known doesn't mean truth hasn't been spoken. The Bible isn't as bad a you make out. It is consistant in reference to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. None the Bible contradict Jesus' message: "I AM the Way, truth and Life... No comes to God except through me... I am the door... Before Abraham is I AM." Jesus does a very very good job in what He alludes to as far as I am concerned. This is all confirmed by the prophets. Immanuel (God with us) He will be called Mighty God and Prince of Peace! Get the picture? He is coming back and you will see for yourself what these words look like. I say glory to the all one true father god in heaven in Jesus' Name!

You keep saying word made flesh. In other words you worship that "flesh". So you still worship other than God. You have also admitted that you worship the father as the father and the son as the son whom you also call word made flesh, the last Adam, the lamb of God and many other contradictions which are not supported by the words or teachings of God or Christ but are only supported by gospels which are written by unknown authors at an unknown time. So none of these false beliefs are actually supported by the word and teachings of God or Christ.

[Burninglight]

I highlighted the part I need clarification on. If I understand you correctly, you are born from Jesus? He didn't give birth though.. he was a man :S

If what you say is a metaphorical explanation, why not be clear about it?

Tawhid: "Say (O Muhammad): "He is God, (the) One, The Self-Sufficient Master, He begets not, nor was He begotten; And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." (Quran: 112 // 1-4)

I don't know what else to tell you except, The Islamic doctrine of Tawhid puts forth a God whose rule, will or law are comprehensive and extend to all creatures and to all aspects of the human life. Early Muslims understood religion to thus cover the domains of state, law and society. It is believed that the entirety of the Islamic teaching rests on the principle of Tawhid.

Scimi

Okay, Just like the word trinity doesn't appear in the Bible, the word Tawhid doesn't in the Quran, but the concept does. So it is the same way with the trinity concept. I mention that is for clarification purposes not that I want to discuss the trinity again. Jesus is the word of God. It is the word of God that was used to bring about all creation including myself!

[Scimitar]

Ah, thanks for making it clear... I see what you are getting at.

RE: The Word of God... to my understanding, all prophets (peace be upon them all) were the Word of God, because they spoke on HIS Divine behalf. Agree or disagree?

Scimi

[Burninglight]

You keep saying word made flesh. In other words you worship that "flesh". So you still worship other than God. You have also admitted that you worship the father as the father and the son as the son whom you also call word made flesh, the last Adam, the lamb of God and many other contradictions which are not supported by the words or teachings of God or Christ but are only supported by gospels which are written by unknown authors at an unknown time. So none of these false beliefs are actually supported by the word and teachings of God or Christ.

You are having fun aren't you? Is your word another you? Is my word another me? Are you better than your word? Can I make my word flesh so it can go over there and be with you while I am here observing how you interact with my word in person? I cannot make my word flesh and blood (A person), BUT God can do all things He wants, but He cannot lie. If He said Jesus is His "Beloved Son" we best believe it or we'll be the object of terror when He returns in the glory of the father with the holy angels. That is all that the Bible states in a nut shell.

[Burninglight]

Ah, thanks for making it clear... I see what you are getting at.

RE: The Word of God... to my understanding, all prophets (peace be upon them all) were the Word of God, because they spoke on HIS Divine behalf. Agree or disagree?

Scimi

No, All prophets before or after Christ were spokeman for God they gave us God's message, but Jesus is the word of God, IOW, He is the message according to the Bible and Biblical Christianity. This is what the saints of the Bible were trying to teach us! Remember Jesus said, "I am the truth, way and the life" He didn't say I show you the way like all other prophets. There is a big, big, big difference

[Abz2000]

I am the truth, way and the life

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
John 16:13

He didn't say I show you the way like all other prophets.

"By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, there is no-one of this Ummah, Jew or Christian, who hears of me then dies without believing in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the people of Hell." (Sahih Muslim, 153).

that is the case with ANY messenger who is sent by God, as soon as you reject one, you reject them all.

the Quran tells us that 'Ad disbelieved in the messengerS (plural), when only ONE messenger was sent to them,
the messenger who comes to you is the truth the way and the life, saying you reject him but accept the others is like rejecting the King who sent him.

[Burninglight]

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
John 16:13





"By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, there is no-one of this Ummah, Jew or Christian, who hears of me then dies without believing in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the people of Hell." (Sahih Muslim, 153).

that is the case with ANY messenger who is sent by God, as soon as you reject one, you reject them all.

the Quran tells us that 'Ad disbelieved in the messengerS (plural), when only ONE messenger was sent to them,
the messenger who comes to you is the truth the way and the life, saying you reject him but accept the others is like rejecting the King who sent him.

I am not sure what you mean to say here. I only said that Jesus said "I am the Way...." he didn't say I show the way. All other prophets claimed to be messengers, but Jesus is claiming to be the message. I believe Jesus over all.

[Ramadhan]

I am not sure what you mean to say here. I only said that Jesus said "I am the Way...." he didn't say I show the way. All other prophets claimed to be messengers, but Jesus is claiming to be the message. I believe Jesus over all.

You claimed to believe in Jesus (pbuh) but you believe more in Paul's words.

[Hamza Asadullah]

I am not sure what you mean to say here. I only said that Jesus said "I am the Way...." he didn't say I show the way. All other prophets claimed to be messengers, but Jesus is claiming to be the message. I believe Jesus over all.

You forgot to mention what comes before that verse:

"In my Father's house are many mansions (dwelling
places); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion
(a dwelling place) for you." John 14:2


The above statement is quite clear. It is in exact conformance to the
teachings of the Qur'an. In the Qur'an we are told how God sent messengers to
all tribes and nations. We are told that the basic message which was given to
each of these tribes was the same: "Worship God alone and worship none else."
Some of the secondary details of this worship might differ from one tribe or
nation to the next according to God's infinite wisdom and his knowledge of those
people. It was made very clear to each prophet that he was not to preach to
anyone but his own people. It was further made clear to this messenger's people
that if they were to obey him that they would receive the reward of God. God
would not hold them accountable for what any other tribe or nation did or did
not do. This would continue until God's last messenger, Muhammad (pbuh) would be
sent to all mankind as the seal of the prophets.


This is exactly what Jesus is saying here. He said that in God's mansion
there are "many" rooms. Jesus was sent to guide to only one
of them. The countless other rooms were reserved for other tribes and nations if
they would obey their messengers. However, Jesus was telling his followers that
they need not worry themselves about the other rooms. Anyone from among his
people who wished to enter into the room which was reserved for them could only
do so if they followed Jesus and obeyed his command. So Jesus confirmed that he
was going to prepare "a" mansion and not "all" the mansions in "my Father's
house".


Further, the verse clearly states that Jesus was the "WAY" to a mansion. He
did not say that he is the "DESTINATION" which would be the case if he were God.
What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except "I am
the 'way' to God's mercy"? That is his job. That is what a prophet
does. It is why God chose him in the first place; in order to
guide to the mercy of God. This is indeed confirmed in John 10:9 where Jesus
tells us that he is "the door" to "the pasture." In other words, he is the
"prophet" who guides his people to "heaven" (see also Jn. 12:44). Once again,
this is the message of Islam.


Finally, remember

"Not every one that says to me(Jesus); 'Lord, Lord,' will
enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father, who is in
heaven." Matthew.7:21


Source: http://www.answering-christianity.com/john14_6.htm

[Hamza Asadullah]

Can I make my word flesh so it can go over there and be with you while I am here observing how you interact with my word in person? I cannot make my word flesh and blood (A person), BUT God can do all things He wants, but He cannot lie..

Why do you feel that God needs to make his word into human flesh? When he can easily put his word to a messenger like he has done from Adam until Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh)?

This is NOT consistant with the teachings of God, Christ or ANY Prophet for that matter. But what is consistant is the oneness of God and the fact that he does NOT require a partner, son, daughter to be his helper. He merely puts his message to a messenger and his messenger propogates the word and teachings of God.

If He said Jesus is His "Beloved Son" we best believe it or we'll be the object of terror when He returns in the glory of the father with the holy angels. That is all that the Bible states in a nut shell.

God has many sons in the Bible. He also calls David his son:Psalms 2:7 says "The Lord has said to me,you are my son, today I have begotten you".

MANY passages speak of the sons of Gods, and the children of God. Sons of God were known as metaphorical issues and not a literal one. But you seem to take Jesus being the son of God literally but not when others are called sons, daughteres and children of God. The Jews saw themselves as the children of God. Sons and daughters of God. That was the status they conceived for themselves. This was a metaphorical issue and not a literal one, so please stop twisting passages to suit your desires.

[tayek1967]

Islam doesn't shine for you.coz Islam is not a man. Islam is religion. but when u want shine about Islam by heart & soul, may be Allah help u. so try again with faith & read Quran by your own language. thanks