My "religion"....is there even a label?

Okay, I was born and raised a Roman Catholic (christian). Even as a child, I had trouble with prayers to Jesus, saints and Mary. It seemed silly to me. (Of course, to say so would result in being chastized). I prayed only to God. Why would one of His children need a middle man or an interpreter?

Was Jesus (pbuh) the son of God? Of course he was. But then again, so was Muhammed (pbuh), Buddha, and you, too, the reader are equally one of God's children. The Trinity made no sense. Original sin made no sense. Many of the rites and sacraments seemed like so much "fluff". I always believed Isa was better seen as a direct intention of God's will and message. Christians love the verse from John 14:6, and in one aspect I wholly agree: The "way" as described by Isa is God's way. I do not call myself a Christian anymore; instead, I try to be as "Christ-like" as I can.

So, in rejecting the notion that Christ IS God, I explore Judaism....but that didn't sing for me either.

I do like that, in Islam, you have ONE, KNOWN author. (Not to mention that cool, backwards squiggly arabic script!)

In the Bible, texts were deleted and those that were kept were often altered. For instance, who wrote Dueteronomy? No one really knows. The early church had many options for their "end days" book (revelations) but opted for the one written by a scholar named John, a man no one knows much about. What are his credentials?

I took a long look at Deism. I agree with Deism in that there is a Creator, but I disagree in knowing the Creator is involved, imparts knowledge and strength, and answers prayer.

Maybe some of you well-versed in religion can assist me in a label:

*I believe in one God/ Supreme being that is synonymous with love and peace.
*I believe humans are born believing and submitting to God.
*I believe God speaks to us, if we know how to listen
*I do not believe in evil or in a Satan. These things manifest themselves when we allow ourselves to be separate from God of our free will, which he has granted us.
*I am not a fan of following texts that are thousands of years old. To follow any religion, one must hold that these writings are, without question, a priori, not to be questioned. I simply cannot do this.
*I believe that, through rejecting one's ego and listening, God's will for us becomes apparent. It will be different for us all. This is what Dr. Naik has refered to as "God-consciousness". I know that I am better at this than I used to be....and I continue to improve, God willing.
*I love. I love God. I love all his wonderful creations: human, plant and animal alike. I strive daily to put a smile on my fellow mans' face. I sow peace and understanding wherever I can. This has nothing to do with me, but I have submitted myself as God's instrument and this is the path He has chosen for me. I am blessed.



So, what am I? A simple kaafir? Some other label?

Greetings,

Perhaps you should consider yourself still a seeker of the truth?

I am not a fan of following texts that are thousands of years old. To follow any religion, one must hold that these writings are, without question, a priori, not to be questioned. I simply cannot do this.

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What if, after your questioning, you found the thousand-year-old book worthy of following?

believing in one God is probably the main pre-requisite for being a muslim. and you seem to fulfill that aspect. but in other parts you are lacking..for example you say that you don't believe in the the devil but our texts lead us to believe in such an entity and so we passively do so. you can think of this entity as your personal conciouses whispering thoughts in your head to do wrong or what ever you want but the belief in an entity forcing you astray needs to be there.

I like how you left christianity because of the absurd practises of worshipping the creation and not the creator. I applaud you for being critical and reasoning with your self.

When you say that we are the son of God, I will assume that you do no mean in literally so I'll let it slide. but just in case, make a habit of not associating us as his children because it is like attributing human qualities to God which is a blasphemous to say the least.

It seems like you are still searching for a way and a reason to believe, this does not make you a KAAFIR, because a kafir by definition is one who has intentionally disbelieved after having acknowledged the truth. so in you case it doesn't seem like you have come to that realization and inshallah (god willing) you will soon.

what I can suggest is you read the quran in various different interprestions (tranlations) and sincerely seek God to guide you and make it easy for you.
And after you do so tell us how you feel: )

GodisAll, how about you say the Shahada, and we label your religion "Islam" and you will be even more blessed.....

Muhammad said:

What if, after your questioning, you found the thousand-year-old book worthy of following?

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syed1 said:

When you say that we are the son of God, I will assume that you do no mean in literally so I'll let it slide.

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Thank you for your input and thoughts.
Love and Peace to all...

So you believe in ONE god and not multiple? You are Monotheist.

You believe that this god intercedes in human affairs? You are a non-deist monotheist

Do you believe that god wants something of you? Are there particular things you believe god forbids you? Do you derive views on stem cell research, abortion, homosexuality, etc from your belief in god or are these views arrived by you secularly? Do you have dietary rules you think god expects of you?

Do you believe that adherents of one religion are more correct than adherents of another?

Do you believe in an afterlife? Do you believe that god will judge you and base your afterlife on that judgment?

Do you believe that god wants or requires worship?

Do you believe that god is all powerful? All knowing? All benevolent? (and can you see the conflict in that?)

Lots of more questions could be asked.

But really I think I'd lean towards calling you a "freethinking theist", meaning somebody who doesn't accept a religion of their parents or society handed to them by preaching or a claimed holy text, and who instead constructs their own unique understanding. Beyond that I don't see many other labels that apply.

pygoscelis said:

but really i think i'd lean towards calling you a "freethinking theist", meaning somebody who doesn't accept a religion of their parents or society handed to them by preaching or a claimed holy text, and who instead constructs their own unique understanding. Beyond that i don't see many other labels that apply.

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that's it!!!!!

"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. (The Noble Quran, 2:186)

It's talking about Islam.

One of the significant things about this verse is, throughout the Qur'an Allah says; "They ask a question; Say.. (answer)", as Allah is telling the Prophet to say this message to them as an answer to their question.

However the above verse is unique, in which there is no "Say...", God directly says; "I am indeed close".

Greetings and peace be with you GodIsAll;

I am not a fan of following texts that are thousands of years old. To follow any religion, one must hold that these writings are, without question, a priori, not to be questioned.

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If you can accept the first sentence in the Bible as being absolute truth, then all other scriptures take a lifetime to understand.

In the begining God created the heavens and the Earth.

In the spirit of searching fpor God

Eric

You're a dude, dude.

That about sums it up.

Argument over.

Thank you, good night, tip your waitress, drive home safely.

I think for growth you should question some of the bullet points you have written for yourself and whether you are right about them. Personally I think that if one believes in a Creator then one should submit to one he concludes to be true as opposed to finding a "label" that submits to what he thinks should be the truth.

You mentioned that in rejecting one's ego God's will for us will be apparent. Part of that is to realise that as human beings our perspective is oh so limited and all we can do our best to seek the truth. I personally believe that since humans are given the gift of intelligence, the journey towards the truth is on the path of knowledge.

This is where it gets difficult because knowledge if truly entered into the heart would make a person humble because he realises that he is limited in what he knows. On a surface level, knowledge makes us arrogant which would affect our ability to learn.

I believe that many of us are arrogant in this sense without even realising it. Some of us are fortunate to be "snapped out of it" by being in the presence of someone who is so much more knowledgable than ourselves that we put our pride aside because we really want to learn from that person.

If you see yourself as a freethinking theist then that's what you are. Though I personally find it strange that one can believe in the Creator of the Universe yet not believe that the Creator would send guidance to His creations.

The problem with being a "freethinking theist" is that your only guideline is yourself and you believe that that is what the Creator has left for you. We go back to the human being's limited perspective.

Anyway thanks for sharing with the forum your thoughts and I hope my reply would not be perceived as offensive because that's not my intention. The issue with forums sometimes is that we can't always tell the tone someone's post :shade:

No offense taken; in fact, I appreciate your sentiments. They are good ones.

Hulk said:

Personally I think that if one believes in a Creator then one should submit to one he concludes to be true as opposed to finding a "label" that submits to what he thinks should be the truth.

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Do you believe that being the creator is enough or should there be something more to get you to submit to them? Would you submit to your creator no matter what or are there other precedent conditions? If your creator was cruel would you still submit?

This is where it gets difficult because knowledge if truly entered into the heart would make a person humble because he realises that he is limited in what he knows. On a surface level, knowledge makes us arrogant which would affect our ability to learn.

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I agree. There can be no learning without admitting ignorance. If people claim to know what they do not then they can not learn. And if they prop up nonsense that often works to block true investigation. From my atheist perspective that can be seen in creationism, in opposition to stem cell research, and in many other religious barriers to science. From a theist perspective perhaps an atheist's lack of belief in God and lack of interest in looking for God, or a person who believes in other Gods would be blocked from searching and finding yours.

If you see yourself as a freethinking theist then that's what you are. Though I personally find it strange that one can believe in the Creator of the Universe yet not believe that the Creator would send guidance to His creations.

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Why do you find that strange? There could be any number of reasons a creator would create something and not all would involve specific purpose or guidance. It may be an experiement the creator is running. It may be a test. It may be just for fun. We could be God's game of "The Sims". Aside from religious faith (which can go in any direction) who is to "know"?

The problem with being a "freethinking theist" is that your only guideline is yourself and you believe that that is what the Creator has left for you. We go back to the human being's limited perspective.

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The mainline theists have the same limitation. The only difference is that they trust in what other humans tell them (ie, a preacher, text claimed to be holy, or fellow human claimed or claiming to have special knowledge) and the "Freethinking Theists" gowithout that "guidance" and tries to figure it out by themselves.

Pygoscelis said:

The mainline theists have the same limitation. The only difference is that they trust in what other humans tell them (ie, a preacher, text claimed to be holy, or fellow human claimed or claiming to have special knowledge) and the "Freethinking Theists" gowithout that "guidance" and tries to figure it out by themselves.

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Well said.

Pygoscelis said:

Do you believe that being the creator is enough or should there be something more to get you to submit to them? Would you submit to your creator no matter what or are there other precedent conditions? If your creator was cruel would you still submit?

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This reminds me of the story of Zeus and his siblings plotting against the Titans(i think the titans were the creator? was it?) because they were mistreated.


a very interesting question and I think people will have different answers for that. It's like asking would you respect your dad even if he isn't a good dad? Many people will have different answers to that question as well. That said, we must bring up the topic of how we perceive the situation we are placed in. I think there are some religious groups that have a problem with questions like "If God is so great why are there innocent people who suffer?", they end up blaming the people suffering because they don't want to blame God.


In Islam, we place great emphasis in the short period of this life. For someone who is under heavy oppression, the reminder is that such a burden is not forever. For someone who is living beyond their needs, the reminder is that such luxury is not forever. There is much more that can be said on the subject but I think it would be more proper to have a separate thread for it.

Pygoscelis said:

I agree. There can be no learning without admitting ignorance. If people claim to know what they do not then they can not learn. And if they prop up nonsense that often works to block true investigation. From my atheist perspective that can be seen in creationism, in opposition to stem cell research, and in many other religious barriers to science. From a theist perspective perhaps an atheist's lack of belief in God and lack of interest in looking for God, or a person who believes in other Gods would be blocked from searching and finding yours.

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I understand a lot of atheists are under the impression that theists are using a delusional shortcut to understand the nature of the world. For example not understanding how thunder/lightning works and thus simply attributing it to a being called Thor the god of thunder. I don't believe this to be the case because what we are really concluding in essence is that the universe has a Creator. The laws of the universe(otherwise called science) can and should be explored (within limits; but thats a whole other thread).

Pygoscelis said:

Why do you find that strange? There could be any number of reasons a creator would create something and not all would involve specific purpose or guidance. It may be an experiement the creator is running. It may be a test. It may be just for fun. We could be God's game of "The Sims". Aside from religious faith (which can go in any direction) who is to "know"?

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If thats what a person wants to believe in their Creator then it's up to them really. From a muslim's perspective, this life is a test. Not in the experiment sense as you said but a test nonetheless.

Pygoscelis said:

The mainline theists have the same limitation. The only difference is that they trust in what other humans tell them (ie, a preacher, text claimed to be holy, or fellow human claimed or claiming to have special knowledge) and the "Freethinking Theists" gowithout that "guidance" and tries to figure it out by themselves.

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It's fine if people want to believe that it's up to them, personally I think that in that comes the arrogance of having the attitude of "I can do it myself, I don't need anything else". It's like a guy wanting to drive to a particular destination but too arrogant to ask for directions. Sure maybe he can reach the destination by himself and he might even find a shortcut, but after how many trials and errors? There is a difference between believing someone blindly as opposed to believing someone of qualification that you trust. You trust that a teacher is well versed in the book he is teaching the class, but the teacher is a human being and he is thus not infallible and you are bound to meet other teachers with different opinions. What about the book then? Is the book infallible? To make it simple, let's use the travel and destination analogy and lets say the book is a map. How sure can one be that the map can be trusted? The only way you can achieve this is to study isn't it? There's nothing wrong with that. No one is telling you to trust the map blindly.

GodIsAll said:

*I am not a fan of following texts that are thousands of years old. To follow any religion, one must hold that these writings are, without question, a priori, not to be questioned. I simply cannot do this.

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Hmm, the last time I checked, Roman Catholics are baptizing babies and illiterate people. For adults, all that is asked is to commit to absolute truthfullness/goodness and reject evil, believe in God (absolute truth and love) and reject Satan (absolute liar and murderer). Writings are a matter of articulations and is updated overtime, even the Creed has been updated over centuries in Councils, and I am sure it will be updated again in the future.
The only permenant thing is the certainty that God is absolute love and truth and the formula of baptism and this too is from Tradition, not writings really.

Amigo said:

The only permenant thing is the certainty that God is absolute love and truth

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Amen...

Many on here would argue with me, but don't we all sweat the small stuff way too much?

GodIsAll said:

Maybe some of you well-versed in religion can assist me in a label:

*I believe in one God/ Supreme being that is synonymous with love and peace.
*I believe humans are born believing and submitting to God.
*I believe God speaks to us, if we know how to listen
*I do not believe in evil or in a Satan. These things manifest themselves when we allow ourselves to be separate from God of our free will, which he has granted us.
*I am not a fan of following texts that are thousands of years old. To follow any religion, one must hold that these writings are, without question, a priori, not to be questioned. I simply cannot do this.
*I believe that, through rejecting one's ego and listening, God's will for us becomes apparent. It will be different for us all. This is what Dr. Naik has refered to as "God-consciousness". I know that I am better at this than I used to be....and I continue to improve, God willing.
*I love. I love God. I love all his wonderful creations: human, plant and animal alike. I strive daily to put a smile on my fellow mans' face. I sow peace and understanding wherever I can. This has nothing to do with me, but I have submitted myself as God's instrument and this is the path He has chosen for me. I am blessed.



So, what am I? A simple kaafir? Some other label?

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Greetings,

I was wondering, have you read/studied the Qur'an?

you mentioned that you are not a fan of following a book that is thousands of years old. I understand what you mean, allow me to ask you a question; does Truth has an expiration date? or is it timeless? I noticed that you are an educator of biology and chemistry, the Qur'an is not a book of science, but there are countless subjects discussed, from cosmology, physics to biology and geology. I'm by no means knowledgeable in these subjects, but there are those who have studied these subjects and the Qur'an and what they found lead them to proclaim the Kalimah. We, Muslims believe that every single Ayah(verse) in the Qur'an is the Truth- thus ageless. I would advice you to study the Qur'an more, if you are already, to continue with an open heart. Ask questions, particularly to those who have knowledge of the Qur'an. One can't separate the Qur'an from Muhammad(pbuh), so learning about his life and biography is also important.

secondly, you mentioned that you don't believe in evil, nor satan, and that these come about when we are separated from God. Again, your belief is not that far from the Islamic view on evil. In Islam we believe that the only creatures that does, cause evil are those who have free will, and they are humans and Jinn. These are the only created beings that have free will, and it is only they who can chose to do ungodly(evil) acts. Satan in Islam, was not a fallen Angel, he was of the Jinn, other created beings who operate out of free will, for angels don't. Satan is the head of evil, i.e. those who deviated from God's path by their own free will, for he did that in the presence of God, i.e. when he was commanded, along with the Angels, to prostrate to Adam(as), he refused out of pride, jealousy, envy.







May Allah swt guide us all to the straight path that leads towards Him. Ameen

Amigo said:

Writings are a matter of articulations and is updated overtime, even the Creed has been updated over centuries in Councils, and I am sure it will be updated again in the future.
The only permenant thing is the certainty that God is absolute love and truth and the formula of baptism and this too is from Tradition, not writings really.

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Wow!

What version are you operating on now? Creed 7.0

Why do you even need a label. After all, everyone follows his own version of religion even if they may call it Islam, Christianity and what not. Everyone's outlook is different depending on million factors.

Labels only create conflicts. Like they say, "God gave humans the truth, and the devil came and he said, 'Let's give it a name and call it religion.' "
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