origin of god

[joboman24]

We all argue that something cannot come from nothing when an atheist tries to prove his point you say god created us. But I am just curious how did nothing become into something which became god? I am not here to argue against anyones responses but just would like to hear people's opinions.

[aadil77]

That knowledge is only with the Al-Mighty. There are some things we don't know and may never know. It's pointless speculating about such things.

[Person1001]

Why do we have to assume the universe started with nothing?
Why is it illogical for something to come from nothing?
Also I believe the view is that God is 'beyond time' or timeless (just as much as He is incorporeal) so theres no sense in saying something became God - rather God is eternal.

[GodIsAll]

We're only humans, after all. Trying to understand how something cannot have an origin is probably beyond us, though certainly not impossible.

Maybe one day, God-willing, I will be given the gift of being able to understand.

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[Hulk]

Even "nothing" is something in terms of it being an "open space". Even if the universe is empty it still counts as an existence because its an "empty space". What I'm trying to say is that it still falls under the category of being an existing creation.

God is not in this realm of creation which carries the nature of something comes from something.

We get the problem of "Where God came from" because we place God in our realm of creation, which shouldn't be the case.

A similar problem would be to ask "If God can do anything, can He create a rock so heavy that even He can't lift it?"

It's a question that tries to remove the attributes of God from God under the illusion that in order to be All-powerful one has to be able to do "anything".

I should be able to explain what I'm trying to say better but I'm so tired and sleepy right now and beside a lot of the mates here have given good responses. It's good to learn :D. Goodnight!

[Pygoscelis]

Why do we have to assume the universe started with nothing?
Why is it illogical for something to come from nothing?

I also ask these questions. The universe could be eternal. It could have spun off from another universe that is eternal. As the wise person above said, "We Do Not Know". There is no shame in admitting the limits of your knowledge, that is actually a strength :)

[Pygoscelis]

A similar problem would be to ask "If God can do anything, can He create a rock so heavy that even He can't lift it?"

It's a question that tries to remove the attributes of God from God under the illusion that in order to be All-powerful one has to be able to do "anything".

It is a question that demonstrates incomprehensibility of infinity, using the example of infinite power. It directly pits his ability to create against his ability to lift, and if both are infinite then the question can never be answered.

[GodIsAll]

I also ask these questions. The universe could be eternal. It could have spun off from another universe that is eternal. As the wise person above said, "We Do Not Know". There is no shame in admitting the limits of your knowledge, that is actually a strength

The key to wisdom is acknowledging your own ignorance.

[Darth Ultor]

We can ask Him when he get tothe Hereafter.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

I also ask these questions. The universe could be eternal. It could have spun off from another universe that is eternal.

It’s time for some sleepless nights trying to fathom out infinity, how many eternal universes do you want to go back, before you ask the question, where did the very first eternal universe come from?

Did it have no beginning, or did it come from nothing?

Where is that pesky invisible pink flying spaghetti monster when you need him / her?

In the spirit of searching

Eric

[Galaxy]

Just because creation has a beginning and end doesn't mean God has to have one!:shade:

[Pygoscelis]

Indeed Eric.

Either this universe is infinitely old, or whatever it stemmed from is, be that a God or a line of universes spawning one another. Anyway you slice it, you bump into the infinity puzzle.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

Anyway you slice it, you bump into the infinity puzzle

It would be easier to understand if nothing existed, and of course that would mean that there would be no one to ask about those pesky infinity questions.

We are here and we demand an answer, I have come to the conclusion that eternity and infinity seem to defy logic.

In the spirit of searching

Eric

[GuestFellow]

From what I know, energy cannot be created, nor destroyed. For those who can accept this, it should not be difficult to accept that God cannot be created nor destroyed.

[جوري]

Why is it illogical for something to come from nothing?

How is it logical? I have been staring at this empty plate in front of me hoping it would sprout some filet mignon & shoestring fries how long do you propose I wait before that happens?

Why do we have to assume the universe started with nothing?

Whatever you propose will in fact be a conjecture, leaving no atheist any room at absolute scientific evidence and even less room to mock other impressions of what the truth actually is.

best,

[Amigo]

It is part of my understanding of the true God that God has no origin.
God is the one who has no origin by definition.

[Amigo]

It directly pits his ability to create against his ability to lift, and if both are infinite then the question can never be answered.

Heavyness and lifting indicate opposing forces. So the question is whether he can do something against himself.
Now, if I keep to the definition that God means perfect, the answer is clearly No. There is no contradiction in perfection.
If there is contradictions or opposition, then there is no perfection.

[Hulk]

Heavyness and lifting indicate opposing forces. So the question is whether he can do something against himself.
Now, if I keep to the definition that God means perfect, the answer is clearly No. There is no contradiction in perfection.
If there is contradictions or opposition, then there is no perfection.

Around 5:24 :statisfie

[Al-bint]

peace!

how can you scientifically explain Jesus (p.b.u.h) bringing dead to life? what is your scientific explanation for all the details that were revealed to the Prophet (s.a.w) 1400 years ago like the exact shape of the earth, the light of sun being it's own while that of moon being a reflected one, that the sun isnt stationary (which science discovered just recently!), that the salty water and the fresh water don't inter mingle when river grains into a sea and so many others when we all know that Muhammad (s.a.w) was illiterate plus at that time there were no advanced scientific tools to help him find out all this on his own!!? Just keep in consideration that we are talking about a time not just 100, 200 or 500 years ago, we are talking about 1400 years ago! how do you explain that?

wasalaam!

[Pygoscelis]

If there is contradictions or opposition, then there is no perfection.

"Perfection" is a subjective. When you tell me something is "perfect" you are not telling anything unless you tell me what you desire.

[Futuwwa]

I also ask these questions. The universe could be eternal. It could have spun off from another universe that is eternal. As the wise person above said, "We Do Not Know". There is no shame in admitting the limits of your knowledge, that is actually a strength :)

Entirely possible, it might just be that the current understanding of cosmology (general relativity, which indeed points to the universe being of finite age and having been born out of not even nothingness) is wrong, and that the universe/multiverse is eternal after all. But to trust, entirely in the absence of empirical evidence, that we're in such a cosmology, well, some might call that "blind faith" ;D

[Pygoscelis]

Sure, hence my saying that we should admit we don't know. That is the only honest (and humble) answer.

[Amigo]

"Perfection" is a subjective. When you tell me something is "perfect" you are not telling anything unless you tell me what you desire.

I can see how it seem subjective, but 'perfect good' was assumed but I should have been more clear.
I know we hear saying like 'perfect lies, perfect murder, perfect evil' but this is like perfect imperfection. These sayings are not logical.
What is truly perfect is also true good/harmony/order/beauty/... (all of these are summarized in a word known as Holy). So no oppositions, negativity or contradictions can came from perfection.

[Person1001]

How is it logical? I have been staring at this empty plate in front of me hoping it would sprout some filet mignon & shoestring fries how long do you propose I wait before that happens?

Whatever you propose will in fact be a conjecture, leaving no atheist any room at absolute scientific evidence and even less room to mock other impressions of what the truth actually is.

best,

Sorry I hadnt realised you had quoted me,

Well if we leave it as a hypothesis or even a possible precedent we dont need to ask why such a thing should follow through - in the same way you cannot deductively prove the existence of an omnibenevolent, omnipotentent, incorporeal, omniscient...etc. Creator
We can reject the hypothesis as long as we can show the hypothesis leads to a contradiction however.

[joboman24]

I am curious. This question is directed towards the religious. You say god has put us on this earth as a test for the afterlife. People who do bad deeds will go to eternal hell and people who do good deeds will go to paradise. But if there actually is "god" why create us in the first place and put all sorts of tests on us and send each either to eternal paradise or eternal hell? Wouldn't it be easier if he did not have to keep an eye on 2.5 billion muslims across the earth. What is the point of creating us giving us a conscious mind and then making some of us who suffered go to eternal hell ? It really doesn't add up.

[Hulk]

But if there actually is "god" why create us in the first place and put all sorts of tests on us and send each either to eternal paradise or eternal hell?

In the Quran.. the angels asked God why He would want to create humans and make us a leader on the earth when we are prone to disobedience as opposed to the angels who obey Him perfectly. God replied "I know what you know not.".

I think we can all agree that only the Creator is qualified to give an answer like that. We as human beings have limited knowledge, if you refuse to admit that then there is no point in continuing.

One has to wonder why the human being is given the gift of not only being the most intelligent but also the physical ability to put our ideas into practice. If we have our intelligence but have a body of a rabbit then there's not much we can do anyway. Yet, we are unique in this sense that we are the dominant species on the earth.

Shouldn't we use our intelligence to find the purpose of our existence? Don't you think there is something beautiful in the dominant species submitting itself to its creator? We "discover" God, we "try and fail". We have to go through a journey of knowledge and humility to find our Creator. This is very different from the angels who are already perfect.

We were not created in vain. We were created to worship our Creator.

Wouldn't it be easier if he did not have to keep an eye on 2.5 billion muslims across the earth.

I don't think there is such a thing as something being easier or harder when it comes to God. If you look up the 99 Attributes Of God(there are more 99 is what is generally known) you will see that some of those attributes are The All-knowing. He knows what we do in open and in secret. He knows what our true intentions are. He knows whether I participate in these forums to build my own ego or to sincerely join in discussions with the intention of finding truth.

What is the point of creating us giving us a conscious mind and then making some of us who suffered go to eternal hell ?

As this is pretty much the same question as above I won't give another answer, though I would repeat that our purpose is to worship god. Our purpose is not go to hell, our purpose is to go to heaven. However, the wrongdoers(such as opressors) among us will go to Hell. It is not in my place to say who is going and who isn't.

It really doesn't add up.

All I can say is study more, put aside your ego. This goes for myself as well.

Personally I think you ask relevant questions, but as I have said before if your intention is to "win" then there is no point, if your intention is to learn then I think the members here will be happy to try their best at answering your questions. Bear in mind that we ourselves are learners, human beings, sometimes we let our ego get the better of us. I personally don't like continuing when the other party shows signs of arrogance because once that is established his intention is damaged and its no longer about finding truth but about winning for the sake of winning.

[GuestFellow]

I am curious. This question is directed towards the religious. You say god has put us on this earth as a test for the afterlife.
People who do bad deeds will go to eternal hell and people who do good deeds will go to paradise. But if there actually is "god" why create us in the first place and put all sorts of tests on us and send each either to eternal paradise or eternal hell? Wouldn't it be easier if he did not have to keep an eye on 2.5 billion muslims across the earth. What is the point of creating us giving us a conscious mind and then making some of us who suffered go to eternal hell ? It really doesn't add up.

I don't know.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you joboman24;

But if there actually is "god" why create us in the first place and put all sorts of tests on us and send each either to eternal paradise or eternal hell?

If we have a faith and trust in God, then we have to do something.

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

[Scimitar]

How can one measure time if time doesn't exist? One (God) would have to create time... in order to create - a beginning... but not HIS beginning, but the beginning of time... you see?

HE exists in a space outside of time... a different dimension, where time is not a factor.

So the question - origin of God, is something which is beyond our scope of understanding. Because we are int hat space/time dimension that he created...

Imagine a goldfish in a bowl -looking at a human wondering "has this human always existed?" with its 3 second memory... see what at I'm getting at here... it just doesn't work...

Burning braincells over it is futile - accepting it, is the opposite. It leads to understanding that we don't have all the answers, but HE does...

...and then, we go and look to texts to see what HE has said about the universe, creations, and HIS own magnificent existence... see?

Scimi

[Scimitar]

I'd like to add that if you can understand the concept of infinity, then why cannot you understand that God is infinite? No beginning - No end...

...Strikes me as weird that people like to pose questions they already know the answers to - if only they took some time to reflect.

Scimi

[joboman24]

scmiti I understand the concept of infinite. Energy is the only thing that is infinite. Are you saying god is energy ?

[Pygoscelis]

Burning braincells over it is futile - accepting it, is the opposite. It leads to understanding that we don't have all the answers, but HE does...

I think this is a major part of what leads to belief in God(s). We have to at some point admit we don't have all the answers, and we don't like that very much. We feel a need to "know" the answers so we invent Gods and fill the gaps with them. The gaps get smaller as we learn more (we used to explain thunder and lightning with Gods) but there will always be gaps so there will always be room for Gods.

[CosmicPathos]

I think this is a major part of what leads to belief in God(s). We have to at some point admit we don't have all the answers, and we don't like that very much. We feel a need to "know" the answers so we invent Gods and fill the gaps with them. The gaps get smaller as we learn more (we used to explain thunder and lightning with Gods) but there will always be gaps so there will always be room for Gods.

huh.

your answer assumes the fact that we dont invoke God for the things for which we have answers. I still believe thunder and lightning is caused by God. I still believe that a God creates a human embryo, despite knowing that a sperm and egg meet to create a zygote.

[Hulk]

your answer assumes the fact that we dont invoke God for the things for which we have answers. I still believe thunder and lightning is caused by God. I still believe that a God creates a human embryo, despite knowing that a sperm and egg meet to create a zygote.

I've never understood why it is assumed that belief in a Creator is a shortcut to "understanding" the nature of the universe. It reminds me of the old "Science and Religion are opposites" idea.

Religion in essence is the belief that the universe has a Creator. Science is the study of the universe. To say that Science and Religion are opposites is like saying a Macbook factory and a Macbook manual are opposites. We can understand how the Macbook works by studying it with the manual, but it certainly doesn't make us assume that the laptop doesn't have a manufacturer. In fact it would make more sense to conclude that it does have a manufacturer.

The laws of the universe are ordained by its Creator. (Which we are a part of). Part of the law ordained to us is the ability to recognise and study these laws and use it to our advantage. We call it science. By no means does "science" proof that there is no God and to believe in God is certainly not some kind of "cop out" of a logical explanation.

[~ Sabr ~]

I think this is a major part of what leads to belief in God(s). We have to at some point admit we don't have all the answers, and we don't like that very much. We feel a need to "know" the answers so we invent Gods and fill the gaps with them. The gaps get smaller as we learn more (we used to explain thunder and lightning with Gods) but there will always be gaps so there will always be room for Gods.

Peace brother

I think you'll find that not 85% of the world population have "invented" God. It is a natural thing, because God DOES exist. Let us look at this little story:

A person was aboard a ship who was an atheist. As they continued their journet, strong violent winds started to blow and they ship nearly toppled over. The atheist cried out "O God, save us."....etc.etc.

and then let us look at what the Qur'aan has to say about this:

"It is He who conveys you on both land and sea so that when some of you are on a boat, running before a fair wind, rejoicing at it, and then a violent squall comes upon them and the waves come at them from every side and they realize there is no way of escape. They call on Allah, making their religion sincerely His: "If You rescue us from this, we will truly be among the thankful." But then, when He does rescue them, they become rebellious on the earth without any right to do so. Mankind, your rebelliousness is only against yourselves. There is the enjoyment of the life of the world but then you will return to Us, and We will inform you about what you did."
[Qur'aan, Chapter 10, Verses 22-23]

When encountered with a life-threatening situation, all false idols, such as wealth, children, education, spouses which some people take, are made meaningless. He realises that the only god is Allah, and he has no protector except Allah. This is identified in the following Verse:

"When harm occurs to you at sea, those you call on vanish - except for Him alone! But when He delivers you to dry land, you turn away. Man truly is ungrateful. Do you feel secure against Him causing the shore to swallow you up or sending against you a sudden squall of stones? Then you will find no one to be your guardian."
[Qur'aan, Chapter 17, Verses 67-68]

[joboman24]

hafiza you do have to realize while 85% of the population believes in a "god" that it is the cause of it being passed on from generation to generation from 1000+years ago and people in most cultures either didn't have the right to believing in no god otherwise they would be disowned by their family or the lack of education about other things in life such as philosophy. As you can clearly see the last decade the trend is going harder than it ever has in history towards agonistisicm/atheism.

[Scimitar]

I was born Muslim, thru my own choices in my late teens and early twenties - i became an unbeliever... I was a crook. Had it all man. Cars, women, cash, name it...

...So why am I a Muslim again?

I didn't want to be - let me tell you that. This is what happened - I was shown "signs", given to me by God. I ignored them at first. But they became more frequent... I fell into a depression despite having it all. I was in a contradiction. I was being shown a way, a path - but I didn't want to walk it, because I didn't want to trust it. my trust issues ensured that this was difficullt for me, and so, I ignored these signs at the behest of falling into an even deeper depression.

Then one day I had enough. And I submitted fully, willingly, knowingly - that this is it. I cannot ignore these signs. I have to act on them. BEST DECISION I EVER MADE...

Science doesn't have all the answers, in fact - science doesn't even have 1/100th of the answers... but when God shows you something, it is absolute. There is no denying it, for denying it - is denying yourself - and that, leads to depression, and worse.

The opposite of depression, the polar opposite - can be found in true submission to Allah, the ONE, the Lord and Cherisher of the Worlds, The King of Kings, the Mightiest Most Wise, Most Merciful, Oft Forgiving.

Submission. This is Islam. This is Truth. This is Peace.

Scimi

[Hulk]

If you want to talk about where the "trend" is going then we can't ignore that Islam is/if not the fastest growing religion in the world. Atheism is actually now integrated into pop culture and presented as a "logical" ideology for people who are all about science and being all logical. It is incredibly attractive on the surface to an average person who doesn't take the time to analyse it from all angles. (That said, I'm not saying all atheists are like this.)

Islam if anything is viewed in a negative light in pop culture(maybe not pop c but at least in the news) and is often presented as a religion with a bunch of crazy people who hate everything. There was even an issue or some sort of conspiracy that Obama might be muslim. The average person who doesn't take the time to analyse it from all angles would just accept it. Yet the religion is still growing because there are still people who choose to look beyond what they are presented with by the media. They study it on their own.

Personally I think the speed of growth of your particular belief or disbelief is not a strong argument of its authenticity (though I won't say it doesn't play a part).

I also think that the atheists who were athiest before it was "cool" can probably give a better argument than the atheists who are so without having spent much thought on the subject. I've seen so many logically fallacious "quotes" for atheism receiving so many validation its ridiculous. If anything it is proof that atheism has joined the ranks of having members who follow without analysing.

Before I am misunderstood as saying that all atheists are blind followers, I believe that there are a lot of validity in the questions that atheists have, sadly I think a lot of them assumes that those questions cannot be answered.

[~ Sabr ~]

hafiza you do have to realize while 85% of the population believes in a "god" that it is the cause of it being passed on from generation to generation from 1000+years ago and people in most cultures either didn't have the right to believing in no god otherwise they would be disowned by their family or the lack of education about other things in life such as philosophy. As you can clearly see the last decade the trend is going harder than it ever has in history towards agonistisicm/atheism.

I agree that the "trend" of agonistisicm/atheism is increasing, because that is all it is, a trend. It is not a belief and not a way of life.

Maybe they did in the past, but it doesn't matter if someone disowns anyone in the current day and age, so why are people trying to learn about Islaam everyday? Why are lots of people reverting to Islaam everyday? Surely there is something in Islaam that causes people to revert? To them, God wasn't "passed on" from generation to generation?

[Person1001]

J

I was born Muslim, thru my own choices in my late teens and early twenties - i became an unbeliever... I was a crook. Had it all man. Cars, women, cash, name it...

...So why am I a Muslim again?

I didn't want to be - let me tell you that. This is what happened - I was shown "signs", given to me by God. I ignored them at first. But they became more frequent... I fell into a depression despite having it all. I was in a contradiction. I was being shown a way, a path - but I didn't want to walk it, because I didn't want to trust it. my trust issues ensured that this was difficullt for me, and so, I ignored these signs at the behest of falling into an even deeper depression.

Then one day I had enough. And I submitted fully, willingly, knowingly - that this is it. I cannot ignore these signs. I have to act on them. BEST DECISION I EVER MADE...

Science doesn't have all the answers, in fact - science doesn't even have 1/100th of the answers... but when God shows you something, it is absolute. There is no denying it, for denying it - is denying yourself - and that, leads to depression, and worse.

The opposite of depression, the polar opposite - can be found in true submission to Allah, the ONE, the Lord and Cherisher of the Worlds, The King of Kings, the Mightiest Most Wise, Most Merciful, Oft Forgiving.

Submission. This is Islam. This is Truth. This is Peace.

Scimi

Salam bro, do you mind sharing these 'signs' or could you pm me.

Thanks.

[~ Sabr ~]

^ New members, until they get 50 posts, cannot read PMs

[Person1001]

^ New members, until they get 50 posts, cannot read PMs

I have read previous pm's though.

[Scimitar]

J

Salam bro, do you mind sharing these 'signs' or could you pm me.

Thanks.

Even if I tried to explain, you wouldn't understand... it is very VERY personal. I've tried before at the risk of people thinking I have lost the plot.

Allah does not speak to us in audible tone. But HE teaches us HIS signs in ways only we can understand on a 1 to 1 basis. It's individual according to your own path and choices...

I'm sorry, I really would like to tell you (and anyone else) but I just cannot. It won't make sense.

Oh, there is istikharah, which is a prayer for guidance - I can tell you about that if you want? Had some great results with that. :)

Scimi

[~ Sabr ~]

I have read previous pm's though.

They can read admins+mods pms, but not members. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

[Hulk]

Salam bro, do you mind sharing these 'signs' or could you pm me.

Peace bro, if I may share a quote from the Quran.

"We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Quran) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things?" - [41:53]

Surah Fussilat
-------

That said, the Quran also mentions that there are people who are unable to see the signs even if it is presented clearly to them. I am not an expert on the Quran but to me such a scenario is probable when a person is arrogant/prideful (Islamic terms it is called kibr). It is these things that make us want to be"right" even when we are wrong.

What brother Scimitar is right in that not every sign we see can be simply related to another person, as I have said quite a few times before, some things can only be fully appreciated if experienced ourselves.

However there are some things which I think I can share from my own perspective.

There are quite a few things which I have personally observed that is said will happen in the afterlife are actually possible in this life on a minor scale.

"Our actions in this life will be displayed" When I was a child this was often described as sort of like a "movie".
This was 1400 years ago and such an idea would probably have been deemed in the realm of impossible back then. But yet here we are today in a world filled with video clips of people who have long passed. CCTV all around us capture our actions without us even noticing. If us humans in our limited capabilities can produce this, what about our Creator?

"Our deeds will be recorded down" Generally this idea has been accepted in text form and I think will be in book form. Now again 1400 years ago paper was incredibly scarce, even ten years ago for us to think that it is possible to have all our deeds recorded down is impossible. Yet now we are now in a digital age where a thumbdrive can whole thousands and thousands of pages worth of books. I'm not saying we will be using a thumbdrive in the afterlife but if we can find a medium that allows us to accomplish this I think our Creator is capable of something even greater.

"The bridge that is thinner than a strand of hair but is sharper than the edge of a sword." This refers to The Bridge Of Siraat. Siraat simply means path. I recently read an article about Carbon Nanotubes which is basically a very thin strand of tube but strong enough to bear the weight of a car. I don't think anyone back then would believe that something as thin as a strand of hair can bear the weight of a human being let alone a car(not that they had cars).

I repeat, these are simply my own personal observations, any mistakes are from me alone. :statisfie

Oh and also one particular mention in the Quran I remember is God telling those who doubt that He would be able to "reassemble" us on the Day of resurrection The Quran mentions that God can reassemble us to our very fingertips.. And what is at our fingertips? Our fingerprints which is unique to each of us.


Edit: PS I am not saying that the verse I quoted is referring to the "signs" I mentioned. God knows best.

[joboman24]

I agree that the "trend" of agonistisicm/atheism is increasing, because that is all it is, a trend. It is not a belief and not a way of life.

Maybe they did in the past, but it doesn't matter if someone disowns anyone in the current day and age, so why are people trying to learn about Islaam everyday? Why are lots of people reverting to Islaam everyday? Surely there is something in Islaam that causes people to revert? To them, God wasn't "passed on" from generation to generation?

Hafiz yes the trend of agonistiscim/atheism is increasing and will continue to increase because less pressure is put on by parents to their kids unlike the past to believe in a certain god or religion. I agree it is not a belief. But how can you say it is not a way of life? Just because I don't know if there is a god or not is not a way of life? I live by many morals that the quran, bible, or bhagvat gita says to live by. Now this doesn't mean I read the book and I tried to live by the morals of the book. I have lived life the way I wanted to and created morals within myself to live by based on observing life growing up. These morals happen to be very similar to the morals in the religious texts. This likely means that the people who wrote these books and myself have a lot in common in how to live life in peace and contempt and with some "morals" if you want to call it that. For me it is just to not hurt another person physically or psychologically. I don't disagree that the Islam might be a powerful book that it can persuade people to believe in their sayings when people feel "lost" or "misguided" in life. It may very well be a good way to live your life but just because you agree with a lot of things the quran say does it mean you should belive that there is a god? No it certainly doesn't. God has been created to fill the gaps to the "unknown" answers. Answers to which we do not know we proclaim that it is god's work and he is superior and we will never know and such. We may never know in our lifetime to the -"unknown" answers. But who is to say with science advancing at the pace it is in the next 500-1000 years we may have a lot more answers than we do now about "god" and "supernatural". Just a few hundred years ago the world believed that the earth was flat and was the center of the universe. When astronomer/ scientist gallileo came about and disproved it he faced persecution and people were executed for these beliefs that the earth is in fact not the center of the universe nor is it flat. We have recently found something known as the "god particle"/anti matter. We have been able to transport an atom from one place to another. This 20 years ago would be considered the act of "god". I find it hard to understand why so many of you are against science and mathematics when you use it in your everyday lives calling someone on the phone. Going to the internet and posting on this forum. You couldn't have done any of this 100 years ago or even 50 years ago. Yet you want to disprove science in any and every way and say that god is above science. Haven't you just maybe thought that being such a new civilization/species comparitive to how long the earth has been in this universe that we have made amazing strides in science and mathetmatics and maybe just maybe we may have nearly all the answers that we don't know and proclaim it is god in the future?

[Hulk]

Some paragraphs would be much appreciated dear joboman.

Seriously.. it is very painful to read.

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I'm wondering have you read the last few posts? Or maybe I am lost in threads because a lot of what you mentioned has already been discussed so either you missed them or you're ignoring them.

Perhaps it was in another one of your threads.

Anyway here's one thread where the issue of science/religion is discussed.
Click------> SCIENCE AND RELIGION ARE OPPOSITES

[joboman24]

Hulk what do you want me to reply in the last few posts. It shows quotes from the quran what would you want me to respond to that? Other than the fact that I don't believe it? And a lot of what I said was newer stuff and not something I have said before.

[Hulk]

Why don't you edit your post to make it neater?

[Grace Seeker]

Is not this entire thread simply another way to discuss the "first cause" question, not just of God, but of anything?

The classic answer to that question was to continue back along the chain of creation asking, "And what created that?" "And where did that come from, what created that?"

The series would go ad infinitum until one concludes that there must have been a first cause, and whatever that first cause is is labelled God by those who believe in such a power. This is a cosmological argument: the effect of the universe's existence must have a suitable cause. Those who don't label that first cause "God" chose other labels such as the "Big Bang" or "the point of singularity" (presumably before the Big Bang) or some other of many different labels that the competing theories put forth. But regardless by what name you call the rose, the point is that there is someTHING from which the universe and all of creation blooms forth.

Now, there is another group which wants to try to circumvent even that idea. They resist the idea that the universe had a specific time of origin. They belong to a group like Arthur Eddington (who experimentally confirmed Einstein's general theory of relativity), stating: "Philosophically, the notion of a beginning to the present order is repugnant to me and I should like to find a genuine loophole.... We must allow evolution an infinite amount of time to get started." Some want to find not a Big Bang, but a steady state model for the universe.

I want to suggest it does not matter whether one speaks of God, Big Bang, steady state, or perhaps an even yet unprosed theory. The question is not even one of first cause or where did the universe come from. The question is actually not a question of physics at all, nor even a single question. The question is actually two questions of philsophy:
1) Do you believe that it is possible for something to be eternal?
2) Do you believe that it is possible for something to be transcendent?

All of the theories ever espoused eventually require the understanding that either the universe itself or whatever source that produced the universe was eternal. That there is something that has no beginning to it. For those who believe that the universe came out of nothing, not even God, then they are saying that there always was nothing -- in other words, that nothingness is what is eternal.

And then one has to consider is it possible that something might exist outside of our own experience, our ability to perceive and sense, our own world, our own universe and yet interact without and produce cause and effect with in it? Those who argue that our universe might have been given birth to from some other universe are making an argument of at least momentary transcendence just as much as those who argue for God's continual transcendence and power.

I would argue, that if you do believe in the philosophical possiblity that something can be eternal, that something can be transcendent, then the possibility of an eternal transcendent God must be granted. I don't argue that this proves God. I realize that some think that current theories of the origins of the universe make God superfluous. I believe that is a different discussion than the one taking place in this thread. The point is that no model of the origin of the universe is able to explain away the presence of God by excluding him. Rather, they all look back in time to an event in which the origin of all that we call creation comes out of that THING which has the two prime characteristics which all religions use to describe a creative God -- eternal transcendence.

[~ Sabr ~]

We may never know in our lifetime to the -"unknown" answers. But who is to say with science advancing at the pace it is in the next 500-1000 years we may have a lot more answers than we do now about "god" and "supernatural". Just a few hundred years ago the world believed that the earth was flat and was the center of the universe.

As Dr. Zakir Naik said in some of his talks - the Qur'aan has 80% proven by science, and only 20% if left. I think common sense people would take that 20% chance as 80% has already been proved.

Yet you want to disprove science in any and every way and say that god is above science.

Islaam has proven all those things 1400 years ago that science has just discovered. Please read all links below, then come back to this thread. Many Thanks.

The Earth’s Atmosphere

The Quran on Human Embryonic Development

The Quran on Mountains

The Quran on the Origin of the Universe

The Quran on the Cerebrum

The Quran on Seas and Rivers

The Quran on Deep Seas and Internal Waves

The Quran on Clouds

Scientists’ Comments on the Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran

The Miracle of Iron

The Quran on the Expanding Universe and the Big Bang Theory

The Victory of the Romans and the Lowest Point on Earth

[~ Sabr ~]

Some paragraphs would be much appreciated dear joboman.

Seriously.. it is very painful to read.

Agreed. Please can you space out in MAX of 6/7 lines per paragraph.

Many Thanks.

[joboman24]

As Dr. Zakir Naik said in some of his talks - the Qur'aan has 80% proven by science, and only 20% if left. I think common sense people would take that 20% chance as 80% has already been proved.



Islaam has proven all those things 1400 years ago that science has just discovered. Please read all links below, then come back to this thread. Many Thanks.

The Earth’s Atmosphere

The Quran on Human Embryonic Development

The Quran on Mountains

The Quran on the Origin of the Universe

The Quran on the Cerebrum

The Quran on Seas and Rivers

The Quran on Deep Seas and Internal Waves

The Quran on Clouds

Scientists’ Comments on the Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran

The Miracle of Iron

The Quran on the Expanding Universe and the Big Bang Theory

The Victory of the Romans and the Lowest Point on Earth

Hafizah where is this 80% of quran that has been proven by science? I don't see .00001% that is proven. Every quote that is written is so absolute metaphoric with nothing that is definitive.

“By the sky which

returns

.” (Quran 86:11)“[He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling…” (Quran 2:22)
if you honestly consider this as proof then I do not know what to tell you except for the fact that we have completely different views on what "common sense" is. Look at the mayans and aztecs they had more knowledge than islam 1400 years ago. I am sorry I don't mean to offend you when I say this but Islam doesn't prove ****. If there was one sentence that could show that the quran knew what they were talking about the sky or anything else some real definite backing would be nice. Even I would know what the hell the sky meant in relation to the earth 1400 years ago.

[~ Sabr ~]

^ Read the links in the post above then come back to me. If you are not studying Islaam witha clear mind then you will never see Islaam for what it really is.

[Imaduddin]

We all argue that something cannot come from nothing when an atheist tries to prove his point you say god created us. But I am just curious how did nothing become into something which became god? I am not here to argue against anyones responses but just would like to hear people's opinions.

I am kinda new and you made this question some 4 weeks ago, but I wanted to try and answer.

Anything which is created cannot come to existence by itself, obviously. Anything which is not created and has eternal/infinite capabilities is infinite and eternal.
The universe, as all accept and believe, had a starting point. We all know what the ingredients to making a cake are, however, it is us who 'intelligently' work on those ingredients and combine different amounts to get a nice by-product.

Now if we are to believe that the Universes came to exists by itself, then according to Atheists if we gather all the necessary ingredients for a cake into one bowl and don't touch it, we should see a cake forming by itself in front of our eyes.

One of Gods attributes is As Sabur (The Patient), this attribute, among many others, is eternal and God is always in a state of patience. God was never a 'nothing' which latter became something, if that was so then his attributes would not be eternal but instead they would have been inherited and thus anything which is inherited has limits.

Lets look at ourselves, we are not eternal, we go through the baby years having no strength, we then inherit strength once we grow up and as we get old our strength leaves us.

Another one of Gods attributes is The Originator. God can create something from nothing. Humans say that we 'create' when instead all we do is change the shape of some things and combine some different material and we only design rather than create. A car was made using aluminium which already exists, fuel which already exists, everything used for making a car already exists on earth. But can we create something out of nothing? NO.

On the other hand, scientists say that there was nothing before the Big Bang, in terms of materialism, and now we have all this universe. Something that doesn't exist cannot pop into existence out of nothing.

I hope that's helpful.

[~ Sabr ~]

I don't mean to offend you when I say this but Islam doesn't prove ****.

Behave yourself. Respect others and people will respect you. Otherwise get the hell out of here and stop using bad words for our religion.

TROLL.

[Darth Ultor]

Christ, Jobo, you sound like the stereotypical American atheist. Loud, challenging, and in everyone's face. In other words, no better than those missionaries who advertise their religion to you on your own property. Take the example of your foreign counterparts and live and let live.

[joboman24]

I apologize for saying ****. Isn't comparative religion to argue the "other" side of everything as well? People seem to be too close minded and intolerant here if they don't want to hear what they believe in seems a bit sad. I said **** but in another thread a guy says he believes anyone who doesn't follow islam will burn in hell and evverybody doesnt say a word and agrees with him. what the heck is this? And no I am not a troll I wouldn't waste my time being one I have a life. I am a 19 year old college student born and raised in india currently living in southern california.

[joboman24]

Christ, Jobo, you sound like the stereotypical American atheist. Loud, challenging, and in everyone's face. In other words, no better than those missionaries who advertise their religion to you on your own property. Take the example of your foreign counterparts and live and let live.

First off I am not an atheist. I am an agnostic. I just do not believe in organized religion created by random people that's all. I am living and let live. I am not telling anyone on this forum to become an atheist or an agnostic I am just arguing two sides to the point just like every other person here is arguing theirs, what is wrong with that? This is comparative religion isn't it?

[joboman24]

You know what. I will stop posting here. good luck to everybody.

[Imaduddin]

I apologize for saying ****. Isn't comparative religion to argue the "other" side of everything as well? People seem to be too close minded and intolerant here if they don't want to hear what they believe in seems a bit sad. I said **** but in another thread a guy says he believes anyone who doesn't follow islam will burn in hell and evverybody doesnt say a word and agrees with him. what the heck is this? And no I am not a troll I wouldn't waste my time being one I have a life. I am a 19 year old college student born and raised in india currently living in southern california.

None of us are closed minded. You contradicted yourself, which is a sign of dishonesty and hypocrisy and thus your words were not taken lightly. Maybe you should try to be more honest from now on.

And why are you worried so much about a Muslim believing that non-Muslims will go to hell. You don't believe in our hell. For a person who doesn't believe in the Islamic hell and who has nothing to fear, you seem worried.

[joboman24]

you say I contradicted myself. Can you please show me one post where I did?

[~ Sabr ~]

I apologize for saying ****. Isn't comparative religion to argue the "other" side of everything as well? People seem to be too close minded and intolerant here if they don't want to hear what they believe in seems a bit sad. I said **** but in another thread a guy says he believes anyone who doesn't follow islam will burn in hell and evverybody doesnt say a word and agrees with him. what the heck is this?

Thank you for apologising. Please do these things and I will converse with you.

1) Space out your sentences
2) That person is right, anyone who does not die a Muslim will enter hell
3) Read the links I gave you

You don't seem to be wanting to read any information. You seem to want to debate blindlessly.

[Darth Ultor]

I don't believe that to be true. I don't think heaven is a members only club. I believe God will judge everyone according to how they were as a person not by what language they prayed to Him in, what holidays they celebrated, and what religion they called themselves.

[joboman24]

Thank you for apologising. Please do these things and I will converse with you.

1) Space out your sentences
2) That person is right, anyone who does not die a Muslim will enter hell
3) Read the links I gave you

You don't seem to be wanting to read any information. You seem to want to debate blindlessly.

I am not allowed to disagree saying that there is absolutely no evidence in the quran with anything related to human life? But he is allowed to say anyone who is not a muslim enters hell? hmm I don't see a double standard/contradiction there at all.....I think me saying the quran doesn't prove anything is a lot less offensive then someone telling me that I will burn in hell for not being a muslim.

[~ Sabr ~]

Have you read the links???

No right? So speak to me when you have

Goodbye!

[joboman24]

the links you posted about how islam proved things 1400 years ago when science is proving it now? Yes I did read those links. It proves absolutely nothing.

[Hulk]

If a person's intention is to win a "debate" then there is no point in arguing because all he cares about is winning, time is better spent on someone humble who is looking to learn either to find truth for themselves or achieve better understanding. We don't really know what a person's intention is but judging from the outward we can often tell what a person is after.

[joboman24]

what am I after hulk? I am looking for answers too. But if the answers do not add up then I will say I don't agree with it.

[Hulk]

Take a look at your etiquette in the forum and the manner of which you respond. I asked you more than once to practice basic courtesy of using paragraphs in responses and what did you respond to me? Something along the lines of "Can't read a few lines but can memorise the Quran in a month? Contradiction?"

Is this the attitude of a learner of someone out to fuel his ego?

[joboman24]

Hulk I felt like you were asking me to write in paragraphs out of anger that you couldn't get your point across not in the way you actually were requesting me to. If you were the latter then I apologize.

[GuestFellow]

the links you posted about how islam proved things 1400 years ago when science is proving it now? Yes I did read those links. It proves absolutely nothing.

Did you agree with those links? That would be a good starting point. If you agree, then it does prove something, for you at least.

[~ Sabr ~]

the links you posted about how islam proved things 1400 years ago when science is proving it now? Yes I did read those links. It proves absolutely nothing.

You didn't read anything then. I see no more reason to post in this thread.

Goodbye.

[joboman24]

I created this thread. You could leave. thanks

[CosmicPathos]

What is your alternative hypothesis for the origins of god, joboman? do you think man created God?

If yes, then was it a willful creation, to deceive the masses, or was it a necessary creation (based on its importance on how our genes evolved)??

Some neuroscientists with MD and PhD degrees both suggest that God was necessary to be created as we humans evolved spiritual brain and a rational brain.

[joboman24]

hello cosmicpathos. I honestly cannot say for sure from any angle or direction of this how human beings or life in general was created. I just think we shouldn't come to conclusions so easily as to whether it was god (allah) who created us or not. Let us take the course of learning more and more over time then maybe we can come to a conclusion. But at this point in humankind it seems silly to put a name to it as there are 100's of religions in this world all of them believing they are the right religion and the other is wrong. How can we move forward as human beings in general when we have differences like this that affects every day of our lives for example a white christian man isn't welcome in most arabian countries while a lot of muslims are shunned upon in america after 9/11. Why can't we just learn to coexist in peace without religion always being the X factor in human kind decisions. We are human beings first religion second. We are made of the same blood heart, two feet, two legs, two eyes.

[Ali_008]

Many non-Muslims get enraged when they hear that only Followers of Islam will enter heaven. That is absolutely normal behavior, and there is nothing wrong with it. If I was in their shoes, I would probably do the exact same thing, and start to patronize Islam and Muslims on the whole. But the fact of the matter is, there is a reason why Followers of Islam say that they are the only ones who will enter Heaven. I will try to explain it over here as clearly as possible, and I'll hope that my non-Muslim brothers and sisters will be able to understand and accept the logic behind it, inshAllah.

Followers of Islam believe in a single supernatural being governing all creation and call that entity Allah. Unlike other religions, Islam is the only religion where devotion and worship is restricted to one and only one God. Although other religions have similar claims, but there practices and beliefs prove otherwise.

The Qur'an and Ahadeeth teach us that actions are judged by intentions. Allah clearly mentions in the Qur'an that if you do any good deed with the sole intent of pleasing Him then He wills surely reward you for it in the hereafter, whereas if there is any other goal behind it then that deed holds no value in the afterlife and will be recompensed in this world itself.

If you do the kindest action possible with an evil purpose behind it then it is nothing short of a sin. It rather works against than for you, as you initially thought. You might be able to curry favor in this world with that action, but the hereafter will be full of difficulties for you. Thus, an intention can be noble only when its aim is to please Allah, and that's because there can be no good without God. In fact, if you take out "God" from the word "good", all you are left with is an O - which closely resembles the value of nothingness i.e. zero.

There are many righteous and selfless people in this world, but not everyone's actions are pointed at the pleasure of Allah. And so, heaven is a place only for those people who did strive hard in this life in order to please Allah.

You might also say that followers of other religions are also doing a lot of good work in the name of God, what about those people? Like I said before, many religions claim to worship one God, but their beliefs contradict it. The most hated sin is shirk (joining partners in worship with Allah), and those people are committing shirk under the misconception of pleasing God. If they really wanted to know God then they would realize it themselves that anything other than Islam is not leading them solely and only towards Him. And I am not the only one saying it. Every year hundreds of thousands of people are willfully entering the fold of Islam; some of them are even scholars and priests of their previous religion, and they admit it themselves that how they found loopholes in their religion and found peace and truth in Islam.

Every other religion has some element or the other where they are worshiping multiple beings or material beings. Thus, if an action has "I want to please Jesus Christ or any other being" motto behind it then it rather infuriates Allah instead of pleasing Him because of shirk. As a result, the good actions which were committed with a goal different from pleasing Allah are only going to help people in this world. In the hereafter, the only currency that works is noble actions aimed at pleasing the one and only God. People who devoutly follow Islam are the only ones who have that intention and therefore, Allah will reward with them with what He promised.

I hope my explanation was clear cut and easy to understand.

[CosmicPathos]

I just think we shouldn't come to conclusions so easily as to whether it was god (allah) who created us or not.

I appreciate your thoughts. But why do you think we will ever scientifically come to these conclusions? Can we, by being within the system, ever learn the workings of the system, when we are bound by the laws of that very system? We will never come to FULLY understand how life and universe originated, we can only subjectively study it by being within the system. But I do not want to base my afterlife, if there is one which I believe there is one, on subjective conjecture, and I cant wait for 10000 years for humanity to find the answer, as I will die in a short span of time of less than 100 years. Everyone makes the choice which seems rational to them. To me, belief seemed to be the most rational choice.

[joboman24]

hello cosmpicpathos I just feel like things to which we don't know we should just let it be instead of putting a "GOD" tag under it. The reality of the matter is we do not know. If I don't know something I will say I don't know.

[Hulk]

If you find a work of art or a machine isn't it logical to deduce that it had a maker?

[joboman24]

yes cosmic pathos if that is the most rational way to live your live islam then please live it. Whatever makes one happy during this short span on this earth is what you should do. I am contempt with the fact that I mean nothing to humanity in general as you are contempt with the belief that there is something waiting for you in the afterlife. No problem if it helps your quality of life then it is the correct thing to do. But my only complaint is us human beings as a whole define and segregrate ourselves based on religion and not based on who we are as human beings. I believe this should change and is very wrong.

[~ Sabr ~]

I created this thread. You could leave. thanks

You are a stubborn 19 year old who deliberately is trying to enrage muslims. Keep your nose where you belong and don't try to mess up out forum!

[joboman24]

yes hulk for artificially made machine. Again Hulk I am not saying that there is not a possibility of God as I am an agnostic and I claim that I absolutely have no idea to what or who is the creator. I believe it is jumping the gun to call "Allah" the god. Why can't we just say there is likely a god but I do not know what he looks like or who he is?

[Hulk]

I was talking about a Creator because the thread was about the existence of a Creator. Artificially made machines are made by men, yes. But we mustn't overlook that the materials involved in manufacturing are itself a design and a work of art.

Who is God? God is the Creator of the Universe.
What God looks like? No muslim will be able to answer this! We believe that God is beyond anything we can imagine as anything we can imagine would be in the realm of creation and God is not a creation.

Do you agree?

[joboman24]

You are a stubborn 19 year old who deliberately is trying to enrage muslims. Keep your nose where you belong and don't try to mess up out forum!

correct me if this isn't comparative religion. thanks

[joboman24]

I was talking about a Creator because the thread was about the existence of a Creator. Artificially made machines are made by men, yes. But we mustn't overlook that the materials involved in manufacturing are itself a design and a work of art.

Who is God? God is the Creator of the Universe.
What God looks like? No muslim will be able to answer this! We believe that God is beyond anything we can imagine as anything we can imagine would be in the realm of creation and God is not a creation.

Hulk I agree with every thing you say. Only difference between us is you call him allah I say I don't know

Do you agree?

Hulk I agree with every thing you say. Only difference between us is you call him allah I say I don't know

[Hulk]

That's good joboman I think we have at least achieved a better understanding of each other's perspective.


I, like many other muslims who were either born into muslim families or converted to Islam have my own reasons as to why I believe Islam is the true path.


For you to say you don't know is quite fair as at some point we have to admit that we don't know, it's certainly better than pretending to know. Maybe right now from your perspective you believe that it is absolutely impossible to know which "religion" is true or whether any of the religions are true at all. You believe that it is impossible to know for sure and that is why you rather call yourself an agnostic than something else.


Consider this. If you believe that the Universe has a Creator. Think about how we as human beings have the ability to deduce that there is a Creator, we were only able to do so by using our Intellect correct? For me, it is this reason that if we want to find the truth we should use our intellect and reason as guides.


I certainly don't believe in "blind" faith and neither do a lot of other muslims. The problem with blind faith is that it is blind! If I tell you that from now onwards that for the rest of your life you must pray five times a day at specific time slots, avoid consumption of alcohol, stop eating food that aren't halal, fast for a month during ramadan, cover up (if you're a woman) etc.


It sure sounds like a lot of things to do out of blind faith isn't it? Yet, there are plenty of people who convert to Islam. Is it not worth wondering why these people are willing to add these little "hassles" in their life? Well, I believe that for most of them it is because they truly believe that they have found the truth. Truth that they cannot deny.


It's like saying "I don't care how much hassle this religion is going to add to my life, this is the truth and I must follow it!"


Of course, I use the word "hassle" because that's what it looks like to a lot of people, but the truth is its nothing like that to the one who believes. To the one who believes, it is the commitment to worldly life that is a hassle.


Much like Superman finds it a hassle to be Clark Kent! Whenever he hears someone needing to be saved, he will try and come up with an excuse so that he can go out and be Superman. You can actually find threads in the forums where muslims talk about finding time to pray out of their busy schedules.

I'm not trying to convince you that Islam is the truth, what I'm trying to do is just to share my own personal perspective with you. If another muslim responses he might give you his own perspective and that is fine as well.

And if I may add to what I said about "blind faith", on some level there is some form of "blind faith" involved. For example, if you ask me why can't a muslim eat pork. I can give you many reasons as to why we shouldn't eat pork but the ultimate reason is that it is because I believe that God has forbidden it. So even if there are absolutely no "scientific" reasons to avoid pork I would still avoid it because I believe it is forbidden.

As muslims, we recognise that there are things we know and things we don't know. Think about how a parent often forbids a child from doing something, the child may not understand it from his/her perspective but the parent knows better, and the child trusts the parent. This is what I meant with the example above.

[~ Sabr ~]

Hulk I agree with every thing you say. Only difference between us is you call him allah I say I don't know

You are contradicting yourself, again. You agree with what brother Hulk says, and yet you say "you don't know" whether there is a God?

How can you agree that there is and then say you don't know?

You are seriously confused.

[Imaduddin]

you say I contradicted myself. Can you please show me one post where I did?

Yes of course, I made the claim so now time to present the evidence.

In your first post you said,

We all argue that something cannot come from nothing when an atheist tries to prove his point you say god created us. But I am just curious how did nothing become into something which became god? I am not here to argue against anyones responses but just would like to hear people's opinions.

Read the red bit in particular OK.

We present our opinions and you argue against us.

And since this is the Comparative section, that's an even bigger contradiction. Maybe I am too judgmental but that looks to me like you are being dishonest.

[Hulk]

If I may say something about bro joboman, the good thing about him is that he really isn't a troll and neither is he here to cause any trouble. You see, unlike most trolls he doesn't come in here pretending to be some expert on Islam and then simply mindlessly use typical islamophobe arguments on the forum. Rather, the questions he ask are more on God in general which I feel is a good approach because even though basically all religions believe in a God. Our concepts of God may not necessarily be the same. The simplest example I can give would be Christianity's concept and Islam's concept.

You will find that there are a lot of atheists that reject the idea of God because they have the wrong concept of God. A lot of the times it is mistaken as "an invisible man in the sky", this of course has nothing to do with Islam's concept of God. We as muslims recognise that God is beyond the created world. We believe that there is existence beyond what our five senses can experience, and we have intellect that we use to deduce that there are things that are beyond our five senses.

Take Bacteria for example, absolutely invisible unless we use a microscope. Does that mean that bacteria doesn't exist before the invention of the microscope? Of course not.

[~ Sabr ~]

Take Bacteria for example, absolutely invisible unless we use a microscope. Does that mean that bacteria doesn't exist before the invention of the microscope? Of course not.

Nailed it, MashaAllaah.

[جوري]

Sorry I hadnt realised you had quoted me,

Well if we leave it as a hypothesis or even a possible precedent we dont need to ask why such a thing should follow through - in the same way you cannot deductively prove the existence of an omnibenevolent, omnipotentent, incorporeal, omniscient...etc. Creator
We can reject the hypothesis as long as we can show the hypothesis leads to a contradiction however.

You haven't shown that the religious hypothesis shows contradiction especially since it isn't a hypothesis at all, it is the natural inclination of man and from childhood's hour. nor have you offered a reasonable demonstrable explanation to the world you find yourself in using the so-called scientific method. You're in fact starting with a double negative. No starting point that doesn't loan itself to some absurd fairy tale and no concession to the obvious. So by what authority do you write?

best,

[جوري]

hafiza you do have to realize while 85% of the population believes in a "god" that it is the cause of it being passed on from generation to generation from 1000+years ago and people in most cultures either didn't have the right to believing in no god otherwise they would be disowned by their family or the lack of education about other things in life such as philosophy. As you can clearly see the last decade the trend is going harder than it ever has in history towards agonistisicm/atheism.

where do you come up with this nonsense? Disbelief has existed side by side religion since the first cognizant noetic man came to the scene. Won't you please do some homework before you write. I hate when people take up web space to release mental farts as if epiphanies!

[joboman24]

where do you come up with this nonsense? Disbelief has existed side by side religion since the first cognizant noetic man came to the scene. Won't you please do some homework before you write. I hate when people take up web space to release mental farts as if epiphanies!

Yes sure disbelief has always existed to a point. There always have to be disbelievers not 100% can be believers. But there were a lot less disbelievers in the past compared to now due to people not being able to read or write and understanding different concepts of logic and reasoning. Nonbelievers of any religion in the past was also the source of banishment and executions from their respective culture. But these days you are allowed to believe in what you want to or not want to believe in and not face major repercussions.

[جوري]

Yes sure disbelief has always existed to a point. There always have to be disbelievers not 100% can be believers. But there were a lot less disbelievers in the past compared to now due to people not being able to read or write and understanding different concepts of logic and reasoning. Nonbelievers of any religion in the past was also the source of banishment and executions from their respective culture. But these days you are allowed to believe in what you want to or not want to believe in and not face major repercussions.

Not only is that utterly false and conjectural but you've absolutely no way of proving it! It is another atheist/agnostic mental fart as is usually let out with hopes the stench would become so impossible that no one would hang around to challenge it. Why do you feel the need to write things as if an authority on a matter which you can't even compose a retrospective study on. Is it a thing of self importance or you simply fancy that you can outwit theists on the account you believe the hype that your brand of life style choice is that of a 'free thinker'?

Furthermore, I'd go so far to say that the people of old were far more pioneering than the folks of now a days at least they thought, they invented, they reflected. Physics was intuitive to them they left us magnificent literature and erected wonders of architecture with what that entails of mathematics and they didn't rely on some neat gadgetry to do so. They weren't sitting in front of the TV and other forms of media just receiving input all day and putting nothing out. A medieval bard could recite a thousand page poem in one setting and now a days you can't get a person to do a simple mathematical problem without resorting to a computer or calculator.

People who wanted to be atheist could always be atheist. Unless they wanted to be atheists simply to gain attention and cause a stir and it doesn't really cost anyone anything to disbelieve, there is nothing to do, no rituals to perform nada. and would go so far to say they were the most vocal voice.

Generations after generations of disbelievers is all there was in fact it was the believers who were usually tortured and ridiculed or crucified look at the story of any messenger sent to a people, the whole term 'Don't kill the messenger' was coined out of that phenomenon.

I guess in your mind or in Hollywood you can create the reality you want and expect us not to challenge it.
It doesn't cost much to be an atheist, no thought process is involved. You do nothing and live for materialism and pray to the bottom line so pray do tell of the logic and reason you speak of?


best,

[BadOlPuttyTat]

If god is time then it is very easily understood that god created nothing from something. Considering a person holds the old theory words have the ultimate power. Reality is nothing but a part of time as is consciousness and matter because all of these are put in place by time. So on a theoretical standpoint god as could the universe exist. But you have to be a crazy fringe scientist to think of life in such a matter. So many parts of god we toss aside without realizing their worth such as the power of voice and thought.
http://www.homesteadweaver.com/andrewgustin/igity.htm

[joboman24]

we will agree to disagree then. Coming up with I am delusional such and such has no backing to it. At least prove a point please.

[جوري]

we will agree to disagree then. Coming up with I am delusional such and such has no backing to it. At least prove a point please.

You're the one making the claim for logic and reason I believe the onus is on you to substantiate rather than the coward' way out? All the religious stories are redolent with ridicule from atheists toward the believers for which they incured a certain wrath. But what of the atheist manifesto does it paint a different picture of logic and reason and fear of profession of godlessness?

best,

[Scimitar]

Yes sure disbelief has always existed to a point. There always have to be disbelievers not 100% can be believers. But there were a lot less disbelievers in the past compared to now due to people not being able to read or write and understanding different concepts of logic and reasoning.

First of all, man has always had the age old art of narrative safeguarded throughout history. Infact, this art was taken so seriously that by the end of the last millenia, it had been re-titled the Science of Hadeeth in the Arabian peninsula, because the Arabs had maintained the art and improved on its authenticity when the rest of the world was relying on paper that burns and ink that fades... You should maybe try actually learning a bit of real history instead of making claims from opinion. How you can guage whether there were more believers in the past than today is beyond me to understand.

What yardstick did you measure their faith by? Where the people of the past more pious than those at present? How can you know such things? Also, what if I consider myself to be a believer but in Gods eyes, I'm not? What then>??? You have no idea what about the nature of the brash claim you have made and how futile it is to pursue that avenue of thought. Like I said, opinion does not make for fact, or eve hypothesis... produce the circumstantial evidnece to help substantiate your claim and we can go from there - but at this point - seriously? You're out of your depth bro.

Nonbelievers of any religion in the past was also the source of banishment and executions from their respective culture. But these days you are allowed to believe in what you want to or not want to believe in and not face major repercussions.

Secondly, Islam - there is no compulsion in religion. You either worship Allah, or you don't. It's a personal choice. Simple. There was no banishment. Only if the social order was compromised - would certain individuals be "banished" or "exiled". Mostly, people were left free to worship as they pleased - but idol worship was not tolerated. I mean - after all, who can tolerate stupidity? :D

Scimi

[جوري]

First of all, man has always had the age old art of narrative safeguarded throughout history

Indeed, even before Islamic history the very birth place of civilization and birth place of monotheism. Writing and reading was invented:

Here's one of the earliest forms of writing from 30 c BC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform

and I have seen art depicting the expulsion from Eden dating that far back. Imagine that.
Atheists for the most part are very short sighted. Not only is there no life beyond the materialism they see, there don't seem to be any other civilizations beyond their western one and thus their whole modus operandi is borne only from the christian dark ages and christian intolerance...
and why would they have a culture beyond that when they're so conditioned to think they're superior and more civilized?

:w:

[Scimitar]

Oh WOW, you just reminded me of something AWESOME. Did you know that their are Muslim scientists, geologists, and historians that don't adhere to the modern method which negates the use of sympathetic analysis? Oh YES there is! And guess what? Largely they work away from the public eye... here check this out:

http://mosestablet.info/en/

Trust me, this tablet is wanted SOOOO badly by the west, but you know - they won't get their hands on it. It will stay in a private museum owned by a Muslim.

Most amazing thing about the tablet? it's 3000 yrs old and contains no letters, script etc - at all. Instead, the tablet tells a story. Everytime you turn it 90 degrees, the story progresses... best part is, it's biblical content that is in the story. Reading about how it was decoded by Muslims has been one of the most interesting journeys I have been on.

Just goes to show, that if this tablet was in the hands of the atheists, it would be regarded as a curiostiy, and nothing more. But in the hands of Muslims, it is invaluable...

Scimi

[جوري]

I know there's some amazing Islamic art out there including the water clock that Harun Ar-Rashid gave to Charlemagne.. sent his court a gasp thinking it is magic lol..
anyhow you know what I have been looking for but my computer battery is dying and I need to go re charge. One of those old carvings of Adam & eve so old it predates Judaism. I had it three laptops ago but every time I get a new laptop I lose a little something lol..


fi aman illah

[~ Sabr ~]

At least prove a point please.

Which we have done endless times in this thread, but if you refuse to answer to the points, then there is really nothing else left to be said.

Peace.

[joboman24]

can you just post me the questions all in one post I have ADD and it bothers me to go through every different post. Thanks I will gladly answer it.