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truthseeker63
06-03-2012, 08:31 AM
What I meant is does Secularism/Secular Law/Separation of Religion and Politics lead to a rise in Atheism ? Western Secularists say only Evolution/Darwinism can be taught in Schools Public Schools anyway because of the Separation of Church and State or the Separation of Religion and State/Government which leads to people becoming Atheists does anyone agree ? In Secular Western Society Religion is not in the minds of people's everyday's lives. The Secular West does have Freedom of Religion in their Constitutiond then again so did the Soviet Union which was State Atheist.

1936 Constitution of the U.S.S.R.
Adopted December 1936

Chapter X
Fundamental Rights and Duties of Citizens

Article 124. In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens.[/p]

http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=28557
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truthseeker63
06-05-2012, 12:04 AM
Please reply thank you very much.
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جوري
06-05-2012, 02:21 AM
If you're not worshiping Allah swt on the path of true Islamic Monotheism then you're worshiping the devil. Atheism is merely another tool of the devil. He is a grand master doesn't care what your choice is, Mormonism or Atheism. The end result is the same. And as you must already know that the war of the end the one so-called Armageddon isn't about Christian vs. Muslim vs. Jew vs. whatever.. that is what Jews and Christians like to believe. With Jesus PBUH descending down on earth people will obviously recognize who he is. So the end is about Good and Evil not all the colors in between.. People are already becoming very polarized in their views and unfortunately only those who speak the truth are the ones ridiculed, imprisoned, droned etc.
4:76 to top

Sahih International
Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah , and those who disbelieve fight in the cause of Taghut. So fight against the allies of Satan. Indeed, the plot of Satan has ever been weak.





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BadOlPuttyTat
06-05-2012, 02:41 AM
with the way it has been here not really. It is when countries use religion as a crutch and impose every bit of religious dogma upon others people turn away. Theocracies are a main cause of this. America was a fake theocracy 60 years ago. You swore by the bible and said "In God we Trust" and any religion was looked down upon if it wasnt Christian. But those Christian caused violence and racism and hatred. We said "God declared the negros were sub-human" and started killing others left and right in political games and declared the Bible as our justification. People looked at this and went away thinking Christianity is about hate. A secular nation doesnt create atheism a theocratic nation creates Atheism and Atheism creates a secular nation. No nation has ever started off as secular because theocracies were the very first type of government rule throughout history. No matter how secular it says it is, religion always has some sort of social or political rule. In a secular nation no one is really stopping your religion and you cannot be brainwashed (mostly). In a theocracy your being brainwashed even if it is good, you will notice many Muslim here in Los Angeles who are Sunni in the day and drunkards at night. But you will notice many Muslim who stick to their religion also even if they are in a secular nation like America. Same applies for Christians also. When you have no bombardment from any theology or dogma it allows you to become who you are....a true Muslim or a kafir, a bible thumpin Christian or a fake, a Orthodox Jew or a heathen.
So take note that most atheist come from super strict religious backgrounds and grow up hating their faith. Any atheist must have a reason to hate religion which means he has been apart of it in his or her life. So most atheist are religious at one point.
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Scimitar
06-05-2012, 02:51 AM
Originally Posted by لميس
Bro Tarek (Achenahr) would be happy to see this video here :)

Scimi
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جوري
06-05-2012, 03:14 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Bro Tarek (Achenahr) would be happy to see this video here :)

Scimi
I watched all 9 hours, although it is heavily influenced by shiite ideology for the most part it is the truth.. one just has to be able to sift through it..
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MustafaMc
06-05-2012, 04:10 AM
Originally Posted by لميس
So the end is about Good and Evil not all the colors in between..
I believe this is the first time I have seens this truth written.
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Darth Ultor
06-05-2012, 04:16 AM
If religion finds its way into politics, it will be corrupt just like all ideologies.
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BadOlPuttyTat
06-05-2012, 06:28 AM
Originally Posted by Darth Ultor
If religion finds its way into politics, it will be corrupt just like all ideologies.
No muslim ever states this fact! I couldnt agree with you more. So many muslims act as if an Islamic theocracy is pure and good. They fail to realize that to run a successful government you must be a successful liar, murder, cheat, fraud, backstabber and secularist. None of which are values for any Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Sikh or Jain. Government = evil; end of story. No matter what you say or no matter how great a nation is, it it is built upon blood and lies. Religion should NEVER be brought into it. I applaud you for saying this ;D
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جوري
06-05-2012, 07:34 AM
Islamic governance isn't a theocracy. Perhaps it would do you good to familiarize yourself with terms before wondering why 'no Muslim admits this' - not sure how many more liberties you'll be granted to mislead with the crap you spew.
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glo
06-05-2012, 08:34 AM
Originally Posted by truthseeker63
Western Secularists say only Evolution/Darwinism can be taught in Schools Public Schools anyway because of the Separation of Church and State or the Separation of Religion and State/Government which leads to people becoming Atheists does anyone agree?
I don't think that is the argument for teaching evolution in schools. What secularists are saying is that only evolution has a scientific basis and therefore can be taught in science classes. In contrast to creationism, which is really a theological/religious concept, rather than a scientific one.

As far as I understand the discussion around separating religion and government is an entirely different one (and a particularly interesting one here in the UK, where the Church of England is the establishes church, which is closely connected to the government).
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MustafaMc
06-05-2012, 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by FreakOffALeash
They fail to realize that to run a successful government you must be a successful liar, murder, cheat, fraud, backstabber and secularist.
I disagree 100%. You get what you expect. Islam as practiced by Prophet Muhammad (saaws) and the rightly guided caliphs was the exact opposite of what you state.
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Abz2000
06-05-2012, 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by Darth Ultor
If religion finds its way into politics, it will be corrupt just like all ideologies.
is that why islam is the only system that has lasted and preserved it's fundamental values for all these 1400 years and is growing STRONGER every day rather than weaker, while every other system has fallen apart?

the american "republic" is now even being touted as "democracy" despite it's founders having opposed the idea of "democracy" tooth and nail.

And despite all the attacks levelled against it and all attempts to prevent it's resurgence (was dismantled via deceit and external plots) it's adherents continue to grow and demand the governance of Islam more vocally.

"Say: "Who is the Lord and Sustainer of the heavens and the earth?" Say: "(It is) Allah." Say: "Do ye then take (for worship) protectors other than Him, such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves?"

Say: "Are the blind equal with those who see? Or the depths of darkness equal with Light?"
Or do they assign to Allah partners who have created (anything) as He has created, so that the creation seemed to them similar?

Say: "Allah is the Creator of all things: He is the One, the Supreme and Irresistible."
He sends down water from the skies, and the channels flow, each according to its measure:
but the torrent bears away the foam that mounts up to the surface.
Even so, from that (ore) which they heat in the fire, to make ornaments or utensils therewith there is a scum likewise.
Thus doth Allah (by parables) show forth Truth and Vanity:
For the scum disappears like froth cast out; while that which is for the good of mankind remains on the earth.
Thus doth Allah set forth parables (similitudes). "


(Qur'an: ar-Ra'ad: 13:16-17)
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Hulk
06-05-2012, 01:52 PM
"Those that follow a religion that cannot create a civilisation, will create a civlisation that cannot follow a religion."
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Darth Ultor
06-05-2012, 02:23 PM
That's all well and good, so where is this perfect Islamic government now? Is it in SA, Iran, or the former Afghan Taliban? One's not even a government, but the CEO of an oil firm. Another I wouldn't be surprised if some of you see them as heretics for being Shiah. And another is a bunch of extremists who don't know Arabic or not enough to really interpret the Quran.
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جوري
06-05-2012, 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by Darth Ultor
That's all well and good, so where is this perfect Islamic government now?
The Ummah is rebuilding as we speak.. stay tuned ..

Is it in SA, Iran, or the former Afghan Taliban? One's not even a government, but the CEO of an oil firm.
Do you ask in rhetoric? obviously there hasn't been an Islamic governance since the dissolution of the Ottomans and even though the last two hundred years of those were weak, at least we still had an Ummah.
Abdulhamid (1876-1909) famously refused to meet Mizray Qrasow, the Jewish banker who had offered to pay off the Empire's debts and build a navy in exchange for the right to buy land in Palestine.
So yeah they let the empire go to waste at the end but at least they weren't secularists or sellouts. I'd rather a weak ummah on the way to rise than a divided states.


Another I wouldn't be surprised if some of you see them as heretics for being Shiah
They're what's your point and how does this relate to the topic?
. And another is a bunch of extremists who don't know Arabic or not enough to really interpret the Quran.
Those ones exist too, again what's the point? to keep divided anyway?
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BadOlPuttyTat
06-05-2012, 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I disagree 100%. You get what you expect. Islam as practiced by Prophet Muhammad (saaws) and the rightly guided caliphs was the exact opposite of what you state.
Um of course dude. Back then Theocracies were common thats why i said all theocracies become secular. Israel, India and all sorts of nations were theocracies. But a theocratic government cannot survive now because all nations are connected. Caliphates could easily survive back then dude but look at it now. IS the Caliphate existing right now? So yet again you have proven my point. Politics always beat religion when the two become one. The Ummah have unity but not that much were they are 1 republic. Do you know how many proxy wars they wage against each other? They are worst then the Asians honestly. No set of countries have unity like the Ummah but regardless they ended the Caliphate because of politics. Religion alone cannot run a country now a days. Back then it could because you didnt have the UN but that ended thanks to WWI and II. Nations across the globe have their thumbs on a big red button ready to start war with each other. I would love to see the Ummah unite and end this violence but they are in political turmoil right now bickering over money and oil and power (that the west is responsible for). Muhammad(pbuh) unified them the Ummah but it was done at a era when it could be done which was a thousand years ago. I would love to see his dream of unity realized but it isnt happening now. The last true Caliphate was held by the Turks (no idea why i love Turkish culture so much).
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Pygoscelis
06-06-2012, 04:15 PM
Does secularism lead to atheism? No, I actually think it is the other way around. Look at the USA and England. The USA has strict separation of church and state. England has an official church. When you have an official church, people get complacent and lazy in their belief, because their religion has "won". When you have a strict separation of church and state, people fight for their religion to dominate the others and become more fervent in the process.

Also note that the separation of church and state is there as much to protect the church from the state as it is to protect the state from the church. If we have no separation of church and state then church leaders and politicians become hard to distinguish and affairs of state will creep into the religious teachings and "corrupt" the church as noted by the poster above.
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Scimitar
06-06-2012, 06:17 PM
2 words:

Rashidun Khaliphate

Study it. Infact, study the proper way a leader is elected in Islam, and you will do a U-turn FreakOffALeash and Darth Ultor.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Does secularism lead to atheism? No, I actually think it is the other way around. Look at the USA and England. The USA has strict separation of church and state. England has an official church. When you have an official church, people get complacent and lazy in their belief, because their religion has "won". When you have a strict separation of church and state, people fight for their religion to dominate the others and become more fervent in the process.
If this is the case, how come churches are being bought out left right and center in the UK? (by Muslims I might add)


Scimi
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جوري
06-06-2012, 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Does secularism lead to atheism? No, I actually think it is the other way around. Look at the USA and England. The USA has strict separation of church and state. England has an official church. When you have an official church, people get complacent and lazy in their belief, because their religion has "won". When you have a strict separation of church and state, people fight for their religion to dominate the others and become more fervent in the process.

Also note that the separation of church and state is there as much to protect the church from the state as it is to protect the state from the church. If we have no separation of church and state then church leaders and politicians become hard to distinguish and affairs of state will creep into the religious teachings and "corrupt" the church as noted by the poster above.
This is nonsense.
Atheism is simply another byproduct of a failed system. Such as a balloon with a zillion hole in it, every time one is mended another hole leaks. Or an Isomer of a mother compound of corruption where that splits and you adhere to one side thinking it is deleterious meanwhile if it split off the mother compound then it doesn't matter which isolate you use, it is always going to have serious adverse effect if not even worse.
Furthermore as illustrated the church doesn't need any more corruption as it is already corrupt. As we've stated before many are the ways of the devil but the end result is one. If you're not following what is right you're following what is wrong and it doesn't matter what label you stick on it.
Also it is foolish to think that satanists/Zionists and their multitudes of colors have no hand in the political affairs they have just simply convinced simpletons of whom atheists are the most compliant bunch that they don't exist that they wield no power . That some semblance of 'freedom' and 'personal expression' and rights exist. fact of the matter is, no such thing.. it is a whole culture of the same outfit in different colors.. You're always a slave to someone and you're always worshiping someone or some thing.. so good luck in your delusions btw I don't write this to sway your personal beliefs believe me far from it. I have stated explicitly & repeatedly that I don't care to amass Muslims rather prefer we work on quality Muslims.. I write this to deflate the ego you possess which I can't figure out at all where it comes from as if you're somehow a leader of a free thinking elite when you're anything but!

best,
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MustafaMc
06-07-2012, 03:15 AM
Originally Posted by لميس
Abdulhamid (1876-1909) famously refused to meet Mizray Qrasow, the Jewish banker who had offered to pay off the Empire's debts and build a navy in exchange for the right to buy land in Palestine.
Again, something I didn't know. How were the British able to get the Arabs to rebel against the Ottomans?
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جوري
06-07-2012, 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Again, something I didn't know. How were the British able to get the Arabs to rebel against the Ottomans?
They were very sneaky, you know even Marmduk pickthall tried one last ditch effort to save it, and he was I think a Lord at the time in the British system.. I have a imran hussain lectures on how it happened I know he's off on many things but that was accurate. Unfortunately the empire was very weak in its last two hundred years and the divide and conquer thing worked well for the Brits.. walhi it breaks my heart to think of it as this is unprecedented.. imagine that since Islam's inception we've had an ummah and just the last hundred years or so it has completely dissolved.. =( and every attempt to get it together is nipped in the bud :hmm:
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MustafaMc
06-07-2012, 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by لميس
imagine that since Islam's inception we've had an ummah and just the last hundred years or so it has completely dissolved
Yes, that is sad, but in another way you can relate to an earlier post you made and say, "The fat lady hasn't sang yet!"
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جوري
06-07-2012, 03:48 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Yes, that is sad, but in another way you can relate to an earlier post you made and say, "The fat lady hasn't sang yet!"
she's singing now :(

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MustafaMc
06-07-2012, 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by لميس
she's singing now
Yeah, literally so, but figuratively, no.

From wikipedia: It ain't over till (or until) the fat lady sings is a colloquialism, essentially meaning that one should not assume the outcome of some activity (e.g. a sporting contest) until it has actually finished, similar to a common proverb. It is a perception of Grand Opera, with its stereotypically overweight sopranos.
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Darth Ultor
06-07-2012, 01:17 PM
By the way, how was a new Caliph chosen after one died?
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جوري
06-07-2012, 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Yeah, literally so, but figuratively, no.

From wikipedia: It ain't over till (or until) the fat lady sings is a colloquialism, essentially meaning that one should not assume the outcome of some activity (e.g. a sporting contest) until it has actually finished, similar to a common proverb. It is a perception of Grand Opera, with its stereotypically overweight sopranos.
I knew that but thought the one in the video was just adorable..:)

Originally Posted by Darth Ultor
By the way, how was a new Caliph chosen after one died?
The best candidates come forth and people offer mobaya3a..

best,
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Darth Ultor
06-07-2012, 04:57 PM
Uh..I don't know Arabic, only a few words and phrases (though I can say the whole adhan and al-Fatiha). What's mobaya3a? Is it like a resume of Islamic knowledge?
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جوري
06-07-2012, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Darth Ultor
Uh..I don't know Arabic, only a few words and phrases (though I can say the whole adhan and al-Fatiha). What's mobaya3a? Is it like a resume of Islamic knowledge?

Al-Fath (The Victory) [48:10] [RECITE]
[top] [next match]
Inna allatheena yubayiAAoonaka innama yubayiAAoona Allaha yadu Allahi fawqa aydeehim faman nakatha fainnama yankuthu AAala nafsihi waman awfa bima AAahada AAalayhu Allaha fasayuteehi ajran AAatheeman
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جوري
06-07-2012, 05:22 PM
sort of like raising your hand and saying aye..
the people elect you .. and now you've seen it first from the noble Quran...

peace
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