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Adonai88
07-05-2012, 02:17 PM
hi

please provide evidence, that the Quran is the true word of God. Based on what do you know, that it is not a book, just invented by men, but the true, inspired word of Allah.
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KnockKnock
07-05-2012, 02:58 PM
Greetings Adonai88!

Some evidences that the Qur'an is the True Book of God is simply the beauty of the language it was revealed, how it was unchanged from the time it was revealed 1400 years ago, scientific miracles, prophecies, and how this Book completely changed the way the Arabs lived in every aspect of their lives from just a single book.

Some examples I can think of how embryology was mentioned in details in the Qur'an and a man could not have known about this since it was just recently discovered.
Another one i can think of is how there are no contradictions whatsoever and that no one has been able to produce something similar to this book.

These are just a few things and I am pretty sure other people on this board can go into greater depths about how this is only from Allah. Peace be with you.
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جوري
07-05-2012, 07:12 PM
we've numerous of threads here on this subject- a mod should dig them up and link them here in shaa Allah

:w:
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muslimah bird
07-05-2012, 07:15 PM
Miracles of the quran is a good site with more than enough evidence to prove that Quran is the true word of God
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جوري
07-05-2012, 07:17 PM
here's one from a ton:
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The issue you brought up relates to the Qur'anic challenge to "produce a surah like it". [On the subject, I thought I might mention that M. M. Al-Azami, the author of a decisive refutation on missionary and orientalist polemic on the Qur'anic preservation is now in the process of writing a book called "The Qur'anic Challenge: A Promise fulfilled". Shaykh Al-Azami is a renowned scholar in both the Western and Islamic world, with a PhD from Cambridge University, he is also a Professor Emeritus at King Saud University in Riyadh Saudi Arabia.]. The challenge is really quite simple: "if you think this Qur'an is fabricated, then why don't you write your own book and follow that? See if that enjoys the same success as the word of God."

This challenge was given to the arabs at the time of the Prophet saws whose poetry was their most salient skill and they used to recite their poetry with pride. They were the masters of arabic poetry and there were none to compare with them. Yet they tried and were unsuccessful in producing a scripture like the Qur'an, and they recognized their failure in this regard very quickly. Nowadays, people who are ignorant of the arabic language think that they will easily be able to cook up something like the Qur'an. The fact of the matter is - the masters of arabic poetry have already tried and failed; the only reason why these modern challengers have not recognized their failure is because they are truly ignorant of the literary devices to begin with, and thus are unequiped to compare their meek compositions with the word of God.

One example of a book written in arabic by a challenger in called 'The True Furqan". Dr. Ali Ataie makes some interesting comments on this composition in his introduction to his 'Gospel of Jesus':
The True Criterion?

A book was just recently released by Wine Press Publishing called “Furqanul Haq,” or “The True
Criterion.” The editorial review on Amazon.com reads: “Arabic and English side-by-side on
every page. Prose and poetry of the highest caliber in classical Arabic with English interpretation.
It contains 77 surahs (chapters) dealing with as many subjects which are beautifully written and
easily understood. Love, Light, Peace, Truth, Repentance, Women, Marriage, Fasting, Prayer,
Abrogation, The Sacrifice, Inspiration, Paradise, The Scale and The Excellent Names are some of
the chapters written in the unique style of the Quran.” Sounds good, right? The problem: This is
not the Qur’an!

Apparently, some poor Arab Christian on his last evangelical leg decided to plagiarize many of
the chapters of the actual Qur’an and made minor changes in order to “Christianize” the text. The
despicability and deception of such a move is surpassed only by its desperation. The Bible isn’t
working for them; they have to use OUR scripture in order to convert people to their religion. I’m
flattered, but still very offended.

After Muslim readers made a big hue and cry about the book to Amazon, one Christian
commented: “I don’t understand why this book offends Muslims. Doesn’t the Koran say that
infidels should try to produce something like the Koran in order to prove that they can’t? Well,
we did!” The verse in question is: “And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time
to time to Our servant, then produce a Surah like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers
besides Allah, if your doubts are true” (al-Baqarah 2:23).

The crucial part of this verse that our Christian friend failed to recognize is the phrase “besides
Allah,” meaning without the help of Allah’s Word. In other words, don’t copy wholesale from the
Qur’an and make a few minor textual adjustments and claim that you have produced something
comparable to it. -- That is called forgery. Reminds me of the Words of God: “But when Our
Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say:
‘Bring us a reading other than this, or change this.’ Say: ‘It is not for me, of my own accord, to
change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should
myself fear the penalty of a Great Day to come’” (Yunus 10:15). If I copied down verbatim a
Shakespearian Sonnet with the exception of a few words here and there that I added on my own,
can I possible say that I have produced a Sonnet equal to that of the English Master? Certainly
not.

The detractors of the Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be peace) accused him of forging the
Qur’an from the Bible. Yet there isn’t even a SINGLE verse in the entire Qur’an that is near
identical to a verse in the Bible. -- “When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah
knows best what He reveals in stages,- they say, ‘Thou art but a forger:’ but most of them
understand not” (an-Nahl 16:101). It’s true that some of the stories are similar, but that is because
the Qur’an confirms as well as corrects certain Biblical narrations that had been fabricated by the
hands of men. This is why the Qur’an is the Criterion! The Qur’an lay outside all of the familiar
categories of Arabic rhyme and prose. It is a miracle of language, rhetoric, poetry, and is
absolutely inimitable.

Last example: Allah reveals, “O mankind! Here is a parable set forth, listen to it! Those on whom,
besides Allah, ye call, cannot create even a fly, if they all met together for the purpose” (al-Hajj
22:73)! “Wait a minute,” you might say, “Scientists today have cloned livestock! A fly would be
no problem.” Cloned yes, but create? Never. Allah is referring to the creation of a fly out of
nothing, just as He creates. Taking an animal’s DNA, its entire genetic make-up and a substance
that GOD created Himself, and using it to clone a sheep or cow does not constitute creation. The
same applies to “Furqanul Haq.” You cannot rival God’s miracle by using His miracle to do so!

News of this book has led me to a very interesting and important project. Obviously, the
“Furqanul Haq” is not the Qur’an. But what if I were to do the same thing to the Christian
scripture? What if I took elements present in the four canonical Gospels and harmonized them
into a single account and “Islamicized” the text in a few places? Why not? Certainly Christians
are constantly demanding from us to produce the true Gospel of Jesus Christ (or at least our
version of it) in light of our rejection of the twenty-seven books of the New Testament as God’s
infallible Word. It would be a bitter taste of their own medicine. Besides, this is exactly what the
evangelists Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John did themselves! My resulting work has been named:
“???????? ?????????? ?????? ???????,” (Greek for Alethinos Evangelion Iaysus Christos)
- “The True Gospel of Jesus Christ” or simply “Injeel-ul-Haq.” (Gospel of Jesus, pp. 2-3)
In additon to the points mentioned by Dr. Ataie, whenever I discuss this issue, I begin with an important definition -that of the Qur'an. When the Qur'an challenges others to produce something like it, the prerequisite is that someone understand what the Qur'an is to be able to attempt the challenge. The 'Qur'an' literally means a recitation. The Qur'an was not revealed to Prophet Muhammad saws as a book, nor was it dispersed or preached primarily in written form - it was through recitation that is was primarily recieved and dispersed. Thus, anyone attempting to answer the challenge must produce for us a recitation - not just a written composition. So let us see if these critics can produce for us a recitation that matches the quality of such:
http://quran.islamway.com/mishary1424/025.mp3
http://quran.islamway.com/matrood/002.mp3
http://quran.islamway.com/ayyoubharam/024.mp3

There are probably thousands of other recitations forum members could link you to. Let these critics try tp produce anything that has the power of these recitations. When, I listen to these recitations, understanding their meaning as well, I'm gripped by their power and beauty. I get a feeling of immense tranquility when I listen to these recitations that I never get listening to anything else. And its not just me or other Muslims raised as Muslims. Those who convert to Islam having read much of the Qur'an experience the same undescribable feeling when listening to the Qur'an.

And I'm not ignorant of the compositions of the critics either. I have read many of their attempts to answer the Qur'anic challenge in arabic, and have tried many times reciting them out-loud but in vain, as each word feels like an obstacle to the one trying to recite with tajweed. These compositions are unrecitable and are no different from the average written pieces of arabic composed by human beings (in many cases the critics' compositions do not even meet the standard of acceptable written arabic).

My above explanation has focused on the literary style of the Qur'an, although one must remember that to produce something like the Qur'an involves other things as well. Briefly, I'll mention them. The composition must be able to match the Qur'an in terms of purity of the message - it must call human beings to something recognizable as truth and free from defects. The message itself must also be free of discrepancies/inconsistencies. The message must be universal and practical - beyond the bounds of culture and time, and must appeal to human beings so to attract followers from across the world as the Qur'an has. The message must be comprehensive in that it gives human beings guidance in every sector of life, be it social, physical, mental, emotional, political, environmental, and of course spiritual. It must stand the test of time, and be able to stand up in the face of logical and scientific criticism. It must be deep enough to invite centuries of works expounding on its meanings (just as the number of Tafsirs of the Holy Qur'an are more than hundreds of thousands).

These are just some of the basic aspects of the challenge. I expect Dr. Al-Azami will have much more detail for us in his up-coming work, inshaa'Allah.

And Allah swt knows best.
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...nge-quran.html
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جوري
07-05-2012, 07:18 PM
here's another:
By kadafi (www.islamicboard.com)

All praise is due to Allah, and Allah's Peace and Blessings be
upon His Final Messenger, his pure family, his noble
Companions, and all those who follow them with righteousness
until the Day of Judgment.

I would like to discuss the irrational premises concluded by Khalid of Answering-islam team who based it on erroneously translated verses of the Glorious Qur’an. The author of the article, named Khaled, attempts to discredit the preservation of the Glorious Qur’an by quoting semi-verses of the Qur’an and elicit certain meanings that are not there.

Khaled starts with his first claim that Allah (Exalted is He) says that the Words of Allah cannot be changed:
Those Muslims who believe that the above verses prove that the Bible has been corrupted have obviously not pondered over the fact that the Quran explicitly says elsewhere that it is impossible for God's Word to be changed:

for them are good tidings in the life of this world, and in the future too; there is no changing the words of God! That is the mighty happiness! Q10:64


Called liars too were apostles before thee; but they were patient of being called liars and of being hurt until our help came to them; for there is none to change the words of God - now has there come to thee the story of those He sent. Q6:34
He cited two verses as evidence to demonstrate his point. Not only didn't he include the context of these two verses but he generally declared that these verses pertain to the previous Scriptures.

Let us examine the meaning of the first verse:
For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present world (i.e. through a righteous dream seen by the person himself or shown to others), and in the Hereafter. No change can there be in the Words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme success.(Surah Yunus:64)
Imaam Ibn Khatir explains this verse in his tafsir (exegesis of the Qur’an):
(No change can there be in the Words of Allah.) meaning, this promise doesn't change or breach or fall short. It is decreed and firm, and going to happen undoubtedly.
So in other words, the Words of Allah refers to His promise that the believers (of mankind) will receive glad tidings, in this dunya (Wordly life) and the akhira (Hereafter). It has been decreed since the start of mankind and until the Hour approaches that those who believe in the Tawheed (i.e. Islamic Monotheism) and fear Allah (Exalted is He) much are those who are the successful and Allah’s Promise never breaks or changes.

For example, Allah (Exalted is He) said in the same Surah:
And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower (Surah Yunus:115)
Qatadah commented on this verse:
(And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice.)

Surely, whatever Allah says is the truth and He is Most Just in what He commands. All of Allah's statements are true, there is no doubt or cause for speculation about this fact, and all His commandments are pure justice, besides which there is no justice. All that He forbade is evil, for He only forbids what brings about evil consequences. Allah said in another Ayah,
(He commands them with good; and forbids them from evil...) (Al-A’raf:157) until the end of the Ayah.
(None can change His Words.) meaning, none can avert Allah's judgment whether in this life or the Hereafter,
So thus, the phrase, no change in Allah’s Words in this context refers to his Judgement and his Promise.

The meaning of the second verse:
Verily, (many) Messengers were denied before you, but with patience they bore the denial, and they were hurt, till Our help reached them, and none can alter the Words of Allah. Surely, there has reached you the information about the Messengers (before you).) (Al-An’am:34)
Imaam Ibn Khatir comments on this verse stating:
(and none can alter the Words of Allah.) This refers to His decision that victory in this life and the Hereafter is for His believing servants. Allah said in other Ayat,

(And, verily, Our Word has gone forth of old for Our servants, the Messengers. That they verily would be made triumphant. And that Our hosts, they verily would be the victors.) [37:171-173], and,

Allah has decreed: "Verily! It is I and My Messengers who shall be the victorious.'' Verily, Allah is All-Powerful, Almighty.) [58:21]
Again, Allah’s Words here refers to his Promise and decision again. This does in no way relates to the preservation of the previous Scriptures since Allah (Exalted is He) confirmed that they altered it.

The whole argument shatters on the clarification of these two verses. The foundation of Khaled’s premise(s) rested on those two verses and thus it serves no purpose to reply to his other futile claims who are automatically cancelled.

Who was the protection of the Previous Scriptures entrusted to? Allah (Exalted is He) answers that in Al-Ma’idah where He says:
It was We who revealed the law [to Moses]: therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed [as in Islam] to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by [the light of] what Allah hath revealed, they are [no better than] unbelievers.
The summarization of this refutal is as fellows:

1. The ‘Words of Allah’ has to be understood in the given context

2. The Qur’an is perfectly preserved and is widely acknowledged in the Glorious Qu’ran, Muslims and the academic world

3. The Qur’an attests to the corruption of the previous Scriptures (i.e. Torah, Gospel, etc)

4. Allah (Exalted is He) himself promised that He would preserve the Qur’an from corruption whilst the protection of the previous Scriptures was entrusted to the past scholars.

And Allah (Exalted is He) knows best
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...efutation.html
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جوري
07-05-2012, 07:20 PM
and another:



Examining The Qur'an It is worthwhile knowing something about the Orientalism and its distortion of Islam. The academic study of the Oriental East by the Occidental West was often motivated and often co-operated hand-in-hand with the imperialistic aims of the European colonial powers. Without a doubt, the foundations of Orientalism are in the maxim "Know thy enemy". When the Christian Nations of Europe began their long campaign to colonize and conquer the rest of the world for their own benefit, they brought their academic and missionary resources to bear in order to help them with their task. Orientalists and missionaries whose ranks often overlapped, not just the servants of an imperialist government who were using their services as a way to subdue or weaken an enemy, however subtly.
Quite a few Orientalist scholars were Christian missionaries. Two examples worth mentioning are that of Sir William Muir and Rev. St. Claire Tisdall, who were active missionaries and authors of several books on Islam. Today, these books are viewed as very biased studies, even though they continue to be used as references for those wishing to attack Islam to this very day. That Christians were the source of some of the worst lies and distortions about Islam should come as no surprise, since Islam was its main "competitor" on the stage of World Religions. Far from honouring the commandment not to bear false witness against one's neighbour, Christians distortions and outright lies about Islam were widespread.
The modern day Orientalists may have become de-Christianised, but there still exist some age-old notions about Islam. The Christian missionaries as usual, rely on the material of Orientalists. But unfortunately, the Orientalists do not say what the Christian missionaries would like to point out. Hence misquoting is very rife in Christian missionary writing as most of the articles below would show.
This page exclusively deals with the Christian missionary propaganda, lies and distortion about the Qur'an. The Muslims assert that the Qur'an is same as recited by the Prophet Muhammad(P). There are no additional materials added to it nor subtracted after the death of the Prophet(P).
We have divided them into following sections so as to enable the reader to understand the issues involved here.

Textual Integrity

Logical Consistency

Miraculous Features

Sources Of The Qur'an

Issue Of Abrogation


Tafsir of the Qur'an
In this section, the Tafsir of some of the important verses of the Qur'an misquoted by the Christian missionaries would be provided along with the methodology of interpreting the Qur'an.

Qur'anic Studies
The content is be primarily the interesting papers published in peer-reviewed journals. Some material is also the excerpts from books. The aim of bringing such material on the web is to disseminate interesting information which otherwise would end up getting stacked in the libraries, unread.

Integrity of the Bible according to the Qur'an?
May be we should first check what the Church tradition has to say about the integrity or lack of it of the Bible!

The Canons Of The Old Testament & The New Testament Through The Ages
A comprehensive collection of biblical canons throughout the history from the time of Jesus to the modern day critical editions.

On The Textual Sources Of The New International Version (NIV) Bible
What are the textual sources of the NIV Bible? Can these textual sources be considered "inspired" or "original"? Such issues are dealt with in this article. It should be added that the arguments made against the "inspiration" or "originality" of textual sources of the NIV Bible are also valid for RSV, NASV and other Bibles. Please note that the article is not about translations of the Bible; it is about their textual sources.

The Integrity Of The Bible According To The Church Tradition
What about the Bible at the time of Muhammad(P)?

Is The Bible In Our Hands Same As During The Time Of Muhammad(P)?
Insha'allah, more information can be obtained by clicking on the above and following the argument through the links.

© Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.
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Perseveranze
07-05-2012, 07:47 PM
When Ibn al-Muqaffa' arrived at the passage Sura 11:42-46 he realized that it was impossible for any human being to equal the book. So, he desisted from his mu'arada and tore up what he had done.[4]


Lol, I'll post more on the subject below.
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StopS
07-05-2012, 08:19 PM
While these points might be of interest to a linguist, I don't quite see how they are really evidence for the divine origin of the Koran.
The claim of the "surah like it" in particular is so weak that I am always surprised to see it come up. A book or texts in general have no objective rating system and no scale or unit. Like a painting or music they are perceived as subjectively nice or not.

How is posting a discussion by 2 people about a particular subject regarding some words in the Koran evidence in any way for something? "The Qur’an attests to the corruption of the previous Scriptures" No, it doesn't. The Koran nowhere says: the Torah or Bible are corrupted. The humans in the Sunnah made this statement. This is all down to interpretation.

The worst part always comes when other scripture is brought up, thinking that if the Bible is even worse, it somehow makes the Koran better.

Why not bring up some real evidence and not just pre-supposition, projection and interpretation?

Am I being too harsh?
Reply

Perseveranze
07-05-2012, 08:46 PM
3 Parts to read;


Islamic Thought Series #6 - Part 1: Let us discuss the unique literary form of the Qur'an. In part 1, we will try and understand the literary forms of Arabic, which will provide an essential insight into the Qur'an's miraculous nature (which we will discuss in part 2 and 3).

Arabic literary forms

Classical scholars such as al-Baqillani and al-Rummani view the Qur’an as having its own unique literary form.[1] This view is also supported by western scholarship which can be found in the writings of famous orientalists such as Arthur J. Arberry, Professor Bruce Lawrence and D.J. Stewart.[2] Every expression of the Arabic language falls into the literary forms of prose and poetry. There are other ‘sub’ forms that fall into the above categories such as kahin; a sub-form of rhymed prose. However, all literary forms can be categorised as either prose or poetry. According to Muslim and Non-Muslim scholarship, however, the Qur’an cannot be described as any one of these known forms of Arabic speech.

1. What is Arabic poetry?

Poetry is a form of literary art in which language is used for its aesthetic and evocative qualities in addition to, or in lieu of, its apparent meaning. Poetry may be written independently, as discrete poems or may occur in conjunction with other arts; as in poetic drama, hymns, lyrics or prose poetry. Poetry often uses particular forms and conventions to suggest alternative meanings in the words, or to evoke emotional or sensual responses. Devices such as assonance (repetition of vowel sounds), alliteration (repetition of consonants), onomatopoeia (is a word that imitates or suggests the source of the sound that it describes) and rhythm are sometimes used to achieve musical or incantatory effects. The use of ambiguity, symbolism, irony and other stylistic elements of poetic diction often leaves a poem open to multiple interpretations. Similarly, metaphor, simile and metonymy create a resonance between otherwise disparate images.

In Arabic, poetry (ash-shi`r ul-arabiya) is a form of metrical speech[3] with a rhyme. The rhyme (qafiyah) in Arabic poetry is achieved by every line of the poem ending upon a specific letter. The metrical aspect of Arabic poetry is due to its rhythmical pattern (arud). Arabic poetry has sixteen rhythmical patterns called ‘al-bihar’, literally meaning ‘The Seas’ in Arabic. This term has been used to describe the rhythmical divisions as a result of the way the poem moves according to its rhythm, just like the waves in the sea.

The following is a list of the rhythmical patterns, which all Arabic poetry adheres to, or is loosely based upon; at-tawil; al-bassit; al-wafir; al-kamil; ar-rajs; al-khafif; al-hazaj; al-muttakarib; al-munsarih; al-muktatab; al-mutadarak; al-madid; al-mujtath; al-ramel; al-khabab; as-saria’.

Each one of the al-bihar has a unique rhythmical pattern. The al-bihar were first codified in the 8th century by al-Khalil ibn Ahmad and have changed little since. The al-bihar are based on the length of syllables. A literary analysis of any Arabic poem will conclude that it adheres to, or is based upon, these rhythmical patterns. This is supported by Louis Cheikho who collected pre-Islamic and post-Islamic poetry and concluded that all of the poems conformed and were based upon the al-bihar.[4] An example of Arabic poetry is the ancient Arabian poem called ‘Abu-l-‘Ata of Sind’:
“Of thee did I dream, while spears between us were quivering and sooth of our blood full drop had drunken the tawny shafts I know not, by heaven I swear and true is the word I say this pang is it love sickness or a spell from thee if it be a spell, then grant me grace of my love-longing if the other the sickness be then none is the guilt of thine.”[5]

2. What is Arabic prose?

Prose is the ordinary form of written language and every-day speech. The word ‘prose’ is derived from the Latin prosa, which literally means ‘straightforward’. Prose is therefore, adopted for the discussion of facts, topical reading, as it is often articulated in free form writing style. Thus, it may be used for books, newspapers, magazines, encyclopedias and so on. Prose lacks the formal structure of meter (the basic rhythmic structure of a verse) which is typical of poetry; instead it is composed of full sentences, usually divided into paragraphs and then smaller segments known as meta-paragraphs. Some works of prose can contain traces of metrical structure, so a blend of the two forms of literature is known as a ‘prose poem’.

In Arabic, prose can be described as non-metrical speech; which means that it does not have a consistent rhythmical pattern like poetry. Arabic prose can be divided into two categories; saj’ which is rhymed prose and mursal which is straight prose or ‘normal speech’.

Saj’

In his book, Ulum al-Qur’an (An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur’an), Von Denffer, provides the following description of saj’:

“A literary form with some emphasis on rhythm and rhyme, but distinct from poetry. Saj’ is not really as sophisticated as poetry, but has been employed by Arab poets, and is the best known of the pre-Islamic Arab prosodies. It is distinct from poetry in its lack of meter, i.e. it does not have a consistent rhythmical pattern and it shares with poetry the element of rhyme, though in many cases somewhat irregularly employed.”[6]

Although saj’ differs from poetry in that it lacks a consistent rhythmical pattern, there is some form of pattern based upon the accent in each division of saj’. Accent based rhythmical patterns are based upon stresses rather than the number of syllables. Additionally saj’ is distinct from poetry and other forms of Arabic speech due to its concentrated use of rhetorical features.[7] Rhetorical features are literary and linguistic devices intended to please or persuade, that differ from normal speech. Examples of rhetorical features include sound, rhythm, ellipsis and grammatical shift (iltifaat).[8]

In summary the definition of saj’ is that it has a:

i) Accent based (or stress-timed) rhythmical pattern
ii) End rhyme
iii) Concentrated use of rhetorical features

Mursal

Mursal can be defined as a literary form that goes on, but is continued straight throughout without any divisions, either of rhyme or of anything else. Mursal is meant as a way of expression that closely resembles everyday spoken language. Examples can be seen in speeches and prayers intended to encourage or motivate the masses.

In summary the definition of mursal is that it has:

i) No rhythmical pattern
ii) No rhyme
iii) A resemblance to straight forward speech

In part 2 and 3, we will discuss why the Qur'an's literary form cannot be categorised as poetry, prose or rhymed prose, including a discussion why it is a linguistic and literary miracle. Please forward and share (including the other posts in the series).

[1] ‘Abd al-Jabbar, I’jaz al-Qur’an, Cairo, 1960, p. 224; Ali Ibn Isa al-Rummani, Thalath Rasa’il Ijaz al-Qur’an, Ed. M. Khalaf Allah & M. Sallam, Cairo, 1956, p. 97; Hamd Ibn Muhammad al-Khatibi, al-Bayan fi I’jaz al-Qur’an, Ed. Dr ‘Abd al-Alim, Muslim University, Aligarh, India, 1953, p. 36; Abu Bakr Muhammad Ibn Tayyib Baqillani, al-I’jaz al-Qur’an. Ed. A. Saqr, Dar al-Ma’arif, Eqypt, pp. 86-89; A’isha ‘Abd ar-Rahman, at-Tafsir al-Bayani li-Qur’an al-Karim, 3rd ed, Cairo, 1968.

[2] Arthur J. Arberry, The Koran, Oxford University Press, 1998. p. x; Bruce Lawrence, Journal of Qur’anic Studies, Vol VII, Issue I, 2005. Approximating Saj’ in English Renditions of the Qur’an: A Close Reading of Suran 93 (al-Duha) and the basmala p. 64; Devin J. Stewart, Saj’ in the Qur’an: Prosody and Structure, in The Koran: Critical Concepts in Islamic Studies, Edited by Colin Turner, Vol. II.

[3] Metrical speech is a form of speech that employs a strict rhythmical pattern, that is, it follows a type of poetic metre.

[4] Louis Cheikho, Shu’ara’ ‘al-Nasraniyah, 1890-1891, Beirut.

[5] Sir Charles J. Lyall, Translations of Ancient Arabian Poetry, p. xlv-lii and William Wright, 1955 (1898).

[6] Von Denffer, ‘Ulum al-Qur’an: An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur’an, The Islamic Foundation, 2003 (Revised Ed. 1994), p. 75.

[7] Devin J. Stewart, Rhymed Prose. Encyclopaedia of the Qur’an. General Editor: Jane Dammen McAuliffe, Georgetown University, Washington DC. Brill, 2008.

[8] Angelika Neuwrith, Rhetoric and the Qur’an. Encyclopaedia of the Qur’an. General Editor: Jane Dammen McAuliffe, Georgetown University, Washington DC. Brill, 2008.

Islamic Thought Series #6 - part 2:
In part 2, we will discuss why the Qur'an cannot be described as any of the Arabic literary forms.

The inability to produce anything like the Qur’an, due to its unique literary form, is the essence of the Qur’anic miracle. This is because a human author is only able to produce the known literary forms in the Arabic language. The development of an entirely new literary form is beyond the scope of the natural capacity of any human author, hence a Divine entity, Allah, is the only sufficient comprehensive explanation. The evidence for this is that for over a millennia, the speech and writings of the Arabs have always fallen within the known literary forms of the Arabic language. However, the Qur’an breaks this natural pattern due to its uniqueness. Taha Husayn, a prominent Egyptian litterateur, in a public lecture summarised how the Qur’an achieves its own unique form:

“But you know that the Qur’an is not prose and that it is not verse either. It is rather Qur’an, and it cannot be called by any other name but this. It is not verse, and that is clear; for it does not bind itself to the bonds of verse. And it is not prose, for it is bound by bonds peculiar to itself, not found elsewhere; some of the binds are related to the endings of its verses, and some to that musical sound which is all its own. It is therefore neither verse nor prose, but it is “a Book whose verses have been perfected and expounded, from One Who is Wise, All-Aware.” We cannot therefore say it is prose, and its text itself is not verse. It has been one of a kind, and nothing like it has ever preceded or followed it.” [1]

Hence, the Qur’an is truly a unique expression of the Arabic language. Nothing has come before or after it that can match its literary form. This post will discuss how the Qur’an cannot be described as any of the possible literary forms of the Arabic language.

Is the Qur’an poetry?

The Qur’an cannot be simply described as poetry because each surah (chapter) does not conform to any of the al-bihar (the syllabic based rhythmical patterns of poetry - see part 1) and in many places does not exhibit the same regular rhythmic patterns of the al-bihar. Surah al-Kawthar (A River in Paradise, 108) is a good example to show how the Qur’an is not Arabic poetry:

Inna a’tayna kal kawthar
Verily, We have granted you al-Kawthar.
Fasalli li rabbika wanhar
Therefore turn in prayer to your Lord and sacrifice.
Inna shani-aka huwal abtar
For he who hates you, he will be cut off.

The syllables of these verses do not correspond to any pattern similar to the al-bihar of Arabic poetry. In fact, there is no syllabic rhythmical pattern in this surah. Mohammad Khalifa in The Authorship of the Qur’an concludes:

“Readers familiar with Arabic poetry realize that it has long been distinguished by its wazn, bahr, arud and qafiyah (i.e. exact measures of syllabic sounds and rhymes), which have to be strictly adhered to even at the expense of grammar and a shade of meaning at times. All of this is categorically different from Qur’anic literary style.” [2]

Is the Qur'an Mursal?

As discussed in part 1, Arabic prose can be defined either as rhymed (saj’) or normal speech (mursal). If we compare mursal with the Qur’an, we find that the construction of the Qur’an is not just straightforward speech. This is due to the use of rhyme, rhythm, depth of meaning and unique stylistic features abundant throughout the Qur’an. Mursal is just normal speech that does not employ any of the above features. A superficial analysis on Surah al-Kawthar will conclude that it cannot be described as normal speech.

Inna a’tayna kal kawthar
Fasalli li rabbika wanhar
Inna shani-aka huwal abtar

These verses employ an end rhyme and the repetition of the ending ‘ka’ (you) is responsible for creating the chapter’s rhythm. By highlighting just this surah’s rhyme and rhythm, clearly shows that the Qur’an is not straightforward speech. For more information please read the following article of Surah al-Kawther: Three Lines that Changed the World: The Inimitability of the Shortest Chapter in the Qur’an.

Is the Qur’an rhymed prose (saj’)?

There are three major opinions based upon modern and classical scholarship on how the Qur’an achieves its own unique literary form, these include 1. Unique fusion of metrical and non-metrical speech, 2. The Qur’an transcends saj’, and 3. Qur'an bound stylistic variations. These opinions are explained below:

1. Unique fusion of metrical and non-metrical speech

The Qur’an achieves this unique literary form by fusing together metrical and non-metrical speech. This fusion of metrical and non-metrical composition is present throughout the whole of the Qur’an and cannot be found in any Arabic text, past or present.[3] This is summarised by the famous Arabic literary scholar Arthur J. Arberry, “For the Koran is neither prose nor poetry, but a unique fusion of both.”[4]

2. The Qur’an transcends saj’

The Qur’an shares similar features with saj’, specifically in the early Makkan surahs, but it completely transcends many aspects of what defines saj’. What makes the Qur’an unique in this context is:

a. Greater tendency to mono-rhyme

The Qur’an differs from saj’ due to its use of mono-rhyme, meaning that its rhyming scheme conforms to a few rhymes rather than a selection of many rhymes. According to one analysis, just over half of the Qur’an ends with the same letter.[5] This particular use of rhyme, in a text the size of the Qur’an, has not been replicated in any Arabic text. Devin J. Stewart states:

“Qur’anic saj’ has a much greater tendency to mono-rhyme than does later saj’. A small number of rhymes…are predominant in the Qur’an whereas rhyme in later saj’ shows greater variation.”[6]

b. Does not conform to a particular style

The general description of saj’ is that it has an end rhyme. However, the Qur’an does not conform to a constant or consistent rhyme, which reflects the work of ar-Rummani[7] who states that the Qur’an’s use of language is semantically orientated and does not conform to a particular style. Semantically orientated means the use of language is driven by meaning, in other words the message that is being portrayed, in contrast to the language of the poets when they used words and phrases primarily for sound and rhythm rather than any coherent meaning.
This is also reflected by Devin J. Stewart’s analysis, he states:

“The Qur’an allows inexact rhymes which are not found in later saj’”[8]

c. Greater range of saj’ phrases

The divisions of saj’ or single phrases of saj’ are called saj’aat.[9] The Qur’an differs from normal saj’ as it has a greater range of short and long saj’aat. Devin J. Stewart states:

“Both in the Qur’an and in later saj’ we see that shorter saj’ is much more common, but the range in the Qur’an is greater.”[10]

d. Higher frequency of rhetorical features

The Qur’an is a ‘sea of rhetoric’. The Qur’an exhibits an unparalleled frequency of rhetorical features, surpassing any other Arabic text, classical or modern.[11] The use of rhetoric in the Qur’an stands out from any other type of discourse.[12] The following are some examples to show that the Qur’an employs a wider range and frequency of rhetorical features than any other rhymed prose; past or present [please refer to the original Arabic to understand the examples given below]:

i. Alliteration

This is a literary or rhetorical stylistic device that consists of repeating the same consonant sound within several words in close succession. For example repetition of kum in the following verse:

“He will direct you to do righteous good deeds and will forgive you your sins. And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed achieved a great achievement.” Surah al-Ahzaab (The Confederates) 33: 71.

Another example of alliteration occurs in Surah al-Mursalaat when the letter meem is repeated in quick succession:

“Did We not create you from a despised water? Surah al-Mursalaat (Those sent forth) 77: 20.

ii. Analogy

This can be a spoken or textual comparison between two words (or sets of words) to highlight some form of semantic similarity between them. For example:

“And cushions set in rows. And rich carpets spread out.” Surah al-Ghaashiyah (The Overwhelming) 88: 15-16.

“Therefore, treat not the orphan with oppression. And repulse not the beggar.” Surah ad-Duhaa (The Forenoon) 93: 9-10.

iii. Antiphrasis

This is a figure of speech that is used to mean the opposite of its usual sense, especially ironically. For example:

“Then pour over his head the torment of boiling water. Taste you (this)! Verily, you were (pretending to be) the mighty, the generous!” Surah ad-Dukhaan (The Smoke) 44: 48-49.

iv. Antithesis

This is a counter-proposition and denotes a direct contrast to the original proposition. For example:

“Those who disbelieve, theirs will be a severe torment; and those who believe and do righteous good deeds, theirs will be forgiveness and a great reward.” Surah Faatir (The Originator of Creation) 35: 7.

v. Asyndeton

This term is used for a stylistic scheme in which conjunctions are deliberately omitted from a series of related clauses. For example in the following verses the subject matter switches within the same verse without any linkage:

“Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you can see. Then, He rose above the Throne. He has subjected the sun and the moon, each running (its course) for a term appointed. He manages and regulates all affairs; He explains the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail, that you may believe with certainty in the Meeting with your Lord.” Surah ar-Ra’d (The Thunder) 13: 2.

vi. Assonance

A refrain of vowel sounds to create internal rhyming within phrases or sentences, For example the words eeyaa bahum and hesaa bahum in the following two verses:

“Verily, to Us will be their return; Then verily, for Us will be their reckoning.” Surah al-Ghaashiyah (The Overwhelming) 88: 25-26.

vii. Cadence

Cadence is the rhythmic rise or fall of the voice when a text is read aloud. This powerful feature is one of the most beautiful attractions of the Qur’an and is present throughout. It is a major phonetic and cohesive element which makes the Qur’an impossible to imitate. No other text has done this before, especially in such frequency and in combination with assonance and the many other phonetic devices such as assimilation, nasalisation, etc.

viii. Chiasmus

In rhetoric, chiasmus is the figure of speech in which two or more clauses are related to each other through a reversal of structures in order to make a larger point, for example:

“You make the night to enter into the day, and You make the day to enter into the night, You bring the living out of the dead and, You bring the dead out of the living. And You give wealth and sustenance to whom You will, without limit.” Surah al-Imraan (The Family of Imraan) 3: 27.

ix. Homonymy

This is a group of words, that share the same spelling and the same pronunciation but can have a different meaning. For example, in the following verse the word makara can have both good and bad meaning. In the context of the verse we see the evil plotting and planning of those who wished to kill Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) as opposed to Allah’s plan to protect Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him).

“And they (disbelievers) plotted (to kill Jesus), and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of those who plan.” Surah aal-Imraan (The Family of Imraan) 3: 54.

x. Palindrome

This is a word or phrase that can be read both forwards and backwards, for example ‘race car’ or ‘radar’. The Prophet Muhammad was unlettered, so for him to construct palindromes in the Qur’an such as these would have been a very lengthy task of trial and error, especially when we consider that the Qur’an was revealed as an oral transmission and Prophet Muhammad would merely recite the revelation as soon as he had received it without editing or revising. Allah says in verse 3 of Surah al-Muddaththir (The One Enveloped, 74):

Translated into English this verse means;

“And magnify your Lord (Allah)!”

The example above of an Arabic palindrome is all the more remarkable because it maintains the Qur’an’s consistent unique style, and retains a coherent meaning which is often lost in normal Arabic poetry. When we take a closer look, we see the verse is composed of a palindrome. The word rabbaka (Lord) written backwards forms kabbara meaning ‘magnify’.

3. Qur’an bound stylistic variations

Stylistic variation is the use of different features of language in a myriad of ways. Continuing with the comparison between the unique literary form of the Qur’an and Arabic rhymed prose or saj’, we find that the Qur’an uses literary and linguistic devices in such a way that has not been used before with unparalleled communicative effect.

The use of stylistic variation or stylistic differences, includes, but is not limited to:

1. Semantically driven assonance and rhyme
2. Grammatical shifts (iltifaat, in Arabic)
3. Interrelation between sound, structure and meaning
4. Choice of words
5. Unique linguistic genre
6. Word order

To illustrate these points further take the following two Qur’anic verses which are structurally identical but stylistically distinct:

“These are the limits set by God, so do not approach them”[13]
“These are the limits set by God, so do not transgress them”[14]

The first verb ‘approach’ occurs in the context of following a very serious prohibition in the same verse:

“…but do not associate with your wives while you are in spiritual retreat in the mosques.”[15]

The second verb ‘transgress’ of the second verse entails flexibility signified by the conjunctions in the previous phrases ‘either’ and ‘or’:

“A divorce is only permissible twice: after that, the parties should either hold together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness.”[16]

In the context of stylistic variation the above example can provide empirical evidence for the view that the Qur’an uses words and phrases specifically to provide an accurate and intended meaning.

How are stylistic variations unique to the Qur’an?

The Qur’an achieves its unique literary form by transcending the use of language that is common to saj’. S. M. Hajjaji-Jarrah in her article 'The Enchantment of Reading: Sound, Meaning, and Expression in Surat Al-Adiyat', which discusses how the Qur’an achieves its uniqueness due to stylistic differences, states:

“…Qur’anic ‘Arabiyya brings forth a dazzling assembly of word meaning and sound defying the conventions of both the Arabian saj’ and the literary rules of classical Arabic literature”.[17]

The following examples provide linguistic and literary evidence for the Qur’an’s stylistic distinction.

Example 1: Word order, sound and meaning

The following is an example of how the Qur’an combines words, sounds, meaning and order to achieve its communicative goal, the result of which is sublime rhetoric[18], unsurpassed eloquence and a unique literary form. Let us examine the text from verses 3 and 4 of Surah al-Imraan (The Family of Imraan, 3):

“…And He sent down the Torah and the Gospel, Aforetime, as a guidance to mankind. And He sent down the Criterion…”

Working with the English transliteration the verse reads;

“wa-anzala at-tawrata waal-injeela min qablu hudan lilnnasi wa-anzala al-furqana”

An alternative order of the words is possible:

“wa-anzala at-tawrata waal-injeela waal-furqana min qablu hudan lilnnas”

However, when compared to the original this alternative arrangement has some flaws. Firstly, the alternative arrangement lacks rhythm, compared to the original Qur’anic structure, and it is phonetically inferior. Secondly, this arrangement has led to a disturbance in the meaning. This is due to the fact that the second use of the key word anzala (revealed) has been taken out and the final word al-furqana (the Criterion), whose position has a crucial semantic value, has been placed in the middle of the sentence.

In the original Qur’anic sentence, the repetition of the word anzala and the placement of al-furqana are essential devices employed to enhance the communicative, psycholinguistic and rhetorical effect. The repetition of the word anzala is to confirm the revelation of the Criterion and that it is indeed a Divine scripture while the placement of the word al-furqana at the end of the sentence is to confirm that the Criterion is the last and final scripture.[19] Abd al-Qadir Ahmad ‘Ata refers to examples like these as ‘the chemical composition of the Qur’an which indicate the delicate and balanced stylistic variation in the Qur’an.[20]

Example 2: Grammatical Shift (iltifaat)

Professor Abdel Haleem in his article ‘Grammatical Shift for Rhetorical Purposes: Iltifaat and related features in the Qur’an'[21], highlighted another inimitable feature of the Qur’an, the extensive use of grammatical shifts. This feature is an effective rhetorical device that enhances the texts literary expression and achieves the communicative goal;[22] it is an accepted, well researched part of Arabic rhetoric. One can find references in the books of balagha (Arabic Rhetoric) by al-Athir, Suyuti and Zarkashi.[23]

These grammatical shifts include changes in person, change in number, change in addressee, change in tense, change in case marker, using a noun in place of a pronoun and many other changes.[24] An example of this complex rhetorical feature is exhibited in the following verse. It changes to talking about Allah, in the third person, to Allah Himself speaking in the first person plural of majesty:

“There is no good in most of their secret talk, only in commanding charity, or good, or reconciliation between people. To anyone who does these things, seeking to please God, We shall give a rich reward.” Surah an-Nisaa (The Women, 4): 114.

Surah al-Kawthar provides another good example of the use of grammatical shift:

“Verily, We have granted you al-Kawthar. Therefore turn in prayer to your Lord and sacrifice. For he who hates you, he will be cut off.” Surah al-Kawthar (A River in Paradise) 108: 1-3.

In this surah, there is a change from the first person plural ‘We’ in the first line to the second person ‘…your Lord’. This change is not an abrupt shift; it is calculated and highlights the intimate relationship between Allah and Prophet Muhammad . The use of ‘We’ as described above is used to emphasize the Majesty, Power and the Ability of Allah, whereas ‘Your Lord’ is used to indicate and emphasise intimacy, closeness and love; this is an apt use as the preceding concepts are about prayer, sacrifice and worship ‘So to your Lord pray and sacrifice’. Furthermore, the purpose of this chapter is also to console Prophet Muhammad; using intimate language enhances the psycholinguistic effect. A final shift occurs from the second person to the third person singular.

These shifts contribute to the dynamic style of the Qur’an and are obvious stylistic features and accepted rhetorical practice. The Qur’an uses this feature in such a way that conforms to the theme of the text (semantically driven) while enhancing the impact of the message it conveys. It is not surprising that Neal Robinson in his book ‘Discovering the Qur’an: A Contemporary Approach to a Veiled Text’ concludes that the grammatical shifts used in the Qur’an:

“…are a very effective rhetorical device.”[25]

The Qur’an is the only form of Arabic prose to have used this rhetorical device in an extensive and complex manner. Professor Abdel Haleem states:

“…it employs this feature far more extensively and in more variations than does Arabic poetry. It is, therefore, natural to find…no one seems to quote references in prose other than from the Qur’an.”[26]

Hence, the Qur’an is stylistically distinct from any known form of Arabic speech. It uses linguistic and literary devices in such a way that have not been used before.

In the final part, part 3, we will discuss how the unique literary form of the Qur'an makes it a Divine text.

1. The influential Egyptian Litterateur born in 1889 and died in 1973. Lecture entitled, Prose in the second and third centuries after the Hijrah, delivered at the Geographical Society in Cairo 1930, Dar al Ma-arif.
2. Mohammad Khalifa, The Authorship of the Qur’an: Critical Concepts in Islamic Studies. Edited by Colin Turner, Vol. I, p.129.
3. Mitwalli al-Sharawi, The Miracles of the Qur’an, Dar ul Taqwa, p. 31.
4. Arthur J. Arberry, The Koran, Oxford University Press, 1998. p. x.
5. Dr. Adel M. A. Abbas, Anne P. Fretwell, Science Miracles, No Sticks or Snakes, Beltsville, Maryland, USA: Amana Publications: 2000.
6. Devin J. Stewart, Saj’ in the Qur’an: Prosody and Structure, p.102.
7. Ali Ibn Isa al-Rummani, Thalath Rasa’il Ijaz al-Qur’an, Ed. M. Khalaf Allah & M. Sallam, Cairo, 1956, p. 97-98.
8. Devin J. Stewart, Saj’ in the Qur’an: Prosody and Structure, p.102.
9. ibid, p.84.
10. ibid, p.90.
11. See: H. Abdul-Raof, Exploring the Qur’an, Al-Maktoum Institute Academic Press, 2003, p. 265-398; H. Abdul-Raof, Qur’an Translation: Discourse, Texture and Exegesis, Curzon Press, 2000, p 95-137; F. Esack, Qur’anic Hermeneutics: Problems and Prospects, The Muslim World, 1993, Vol. 83, No. 2. p. 126 -128.
12. ibid.
13. Surah al-Baqarah (The Heifer) 2: 187.
14. Surah al-Baqarah (The Heifer) 2: 229.
15. Surah al-Baqarah (The Heifer) 2: 187.
16. Surah al-Baqarah (The Heifer) 2: 229. For further detail see: Hussein Abdul-Raof, Qur’anic Stylistics: A Linguistic Analysis, p 91-92.
17. S. M. Hajjaji-Jarrah, The Enchantment of Reading: Sound, Meaning, and Expression in Surat Al-Adiyat, Curzon Press, 2000, p. 229.
18. For more information on the rhetorical features in the Qur’anic discourse see: H. Abdul-Raof, Exploring the Qur’an, al-Maktoum Institute Academic Press, 2003, p. 265-398; H. Abdul-Raof, Qur’an Translation: Discourse, Texture and Exegesis, Curzon Press, 2000, p 95-137; F. Esack, Qur’anic Hermeneutics: Problems and Prospects, The Muslim World, 1993, Vol. 83, No. 2. p. 126 -128; Muhuddin Darwish, Irab-ul-Quran; Ibn Kathir, Tafseer al-Qur’an, Darusalaam, Riyadh, 2001; Dr Wahba Zuhayli, al-Tafseer al-Muneer; Al-Qurtubi, Tafsir al-Qurtubi Arabic; al-Jami li-Ahkam al-Qur’an; Tafsir al-Jalalayn, Classical Commentary of the Qur’an (Arabic & english); Imam at-Tabari, Tafsir al-Tabari: Jami` al Bayan fi Ta’Wil al Qur’an; Ahmad al-Hashimi, Jawaher al-Balaghah;
‘Abd al-Fatah al- Qadhi, al-Wafi fi Sharh al-Shatibiyyah fi al-Qira’at al-Sab’, karangan.
19. Hussein Abdul-Raof, The Linguistic Architecture of the Qur’an, Journal of Qur’anic Studies, Vol. II, Issue II, 2000, p. 39.
20. ‘Abd al-Qadir Ahmad ‘Ata, ‘Wujuh i’jaz al-Qur’an, in Mahmud ibn Hamza al-Karmani (ed.), Asrar al-tikrar fi’l-Qur’an, Cairo: Dar al-I’tisam, 1977, p. 243-63.
21. Muhammed Abdel Haleem, Understanding the Qur’an: Themes & Styles, I. B.Tauris Publishers, 1999, p. 184-210.
22. H. Abdul-Raof, Exploring the Qur’an, Al-Maktoum Institute Academic Press, 2003 and H. Abdul-Raof, Qur’an Translation: Discourse, Texture and Exegesis, Curzon Press, 2000.
23. Muhammed Abdel Haleem, Understanding the Qur’an: Themes & Styles, 1999, p. 184-210.
24. ibid.
25. Neal Robinson, Discovering the Qur’an: A Contemporary Approach to a Veiled Text, Georgetown University Press, 2004.
26. Muhammed Abdel Haleem, Understanding the Qur’an: Themes & Styles, 1999, p. 184-210.


Islamic Thought Series #6 - part 3: In this final part of series 6 we will discuss how the matchlessness and inimitability of the Qur'an makes it a miracle or at least a sign-post to the Divine.

William Shakespeare, who was an English poet and playwright, widely regarded as the greatest writer in the English language, is often used as an example of unique literature. The argument posed is that if Shakespeare expressed his poetry and prose in a unique manner – and he is a human being – then surely no matter how unique the Qur’an is, it must also be from a human being.

However there are some problems with the above argument. It does not take into account the nature of the Qur’an’s uniqueness and it doesn’t understand the uniqueness of literary geniuses such as Shakespeare. Although Shakespeare composed poetry and prose that received an unparalleled aesthetic reception, the literary form he expressed his works in was not unique. In many instances Shakespeare used the common Iambic Pentameter (The Iambic pentameter is a meter in poetry. It refers to a line consisting of five iambic feet. The word “pentameter” simply means that there are five feet in the line.) However in the case of the Qur’an, its language is in an entirely unknown and unmatched literary form. The structural features of the Qur’anic discourse render it unique and not the subjective appreciation of its literary and linguistic makeup.

With this in mind there are two approaches that can show that there are greater reasons to believe that the Qur’an is from the divine and a miraculous text. The first approach is logical deduction and the second is the philosophy of Miracles.

Logical Deduction

Rational deduction is the thinking process where logical conclusions are drawn from a universally accepted statement or provable premises. This process is also called rational inference or logical deduction.

In the context of the Qur’an’s uniqueness the universally accepted statement supported by eastern and western scholarship is:

“The Qur’an was not successfully imitated by the Arabs at the time of revelation”

From this statement the following logical conclusions can be drawn:

1. The Qur’an could not have come from an Arab as the Arabs, at the time of revelation, were linguists par excellence and they failed to challenge the Qur’an. They had even admitted that the Qur’an could have not come from a human being.

2. The Qur’an could not have come from a Non-Arab as the language in the Qur’an is Arabic, and the knowledge of the Arabic language is a pre-requisite to successfully challenge the Qur’an.

3. The Qur’an could not have come from the Prophet Muhammad due to the following reasons:

a. The Prophet Muhammad was an Arab himself and all the Arabs failed to challenge the Qur’an.
b. The Arabs linguists at the time of revelation never accused the Prophet of being the author of the Qur’an.
c. The Prophet Muhammad experienced many trials and tribulations during the course of his Prophetic mission. For example his children died, his beloved wife Khadija passed away, he was boycotted, his close companions were tortured and killed, yet the Qur’an’s literary character remains that of the divine voice and character. Nothing in the Qur’an expresses the turmoil and emotions of the Prophet Muhammad. It is almost a psychological and physiological impossibility to go through what the Prophet went through and yet none of the emotions are expressed in the literary character of the Qur’an.
d. The Qur’an is a known literary masterpiece yet its verse were at many times revealed for specific circumstances and events that occurred. However, without revision or deletion they are literary masterpieces. All literary masterpieces have undergone revision and deletion to ensure literary perfection, however the Qur’an was revealed instantaneously.
e. The hadith or narrations of the Prophet Muhammad are in a totally different style then that of the Qur’an. How can any human being express themselves orally over a 23 year period (which was the period of Qur’anic revelation) in two distinct styles? This is a psychological and physiological impossibility according to modern research.
f. All types of human expression can be imitated if the blueprint of that expression exists. For example artwork can be imitated even though some art is thought to be extraordinary or amazingly unique. But in the case of the Qur’an we have the blueprint – the Qur’an itself – yet no one has been able to imitate its unique literary form.

4. The Qur’an could not have come from another being such as a Jinn or Spirit because the basis of their existence is the Qur’an and revelation itself. Their existence is based upon revelation and not empirical evidence. Therefore if someone claims that the source of the Qur’an to be another being then they would have to prove its existence and in this case proving revelation. In the case of using the Qur’an as the revelation to establish Jinns existence then that would mean the whole rational deduction exercise would not be required in the first place, as the Qur’an would already have been established as a divine text, because to believe in Jinns existence would mean belief in the Qur’an in the first place.

5. The Qur’an can only have come from the Divine as it is the only logical explanation as all other explanations have been discarded because they do not explain the uniqueness of the Qur’an in a comprehensive and coherent manner.

Philosophy of Miracles

The word miracle is derived from the Latin word ‘miraculum’ meaning “something wonderful”. A miracle is commonly defined as a violation of a natural law (lex naturalis); however this is an incoherent definition. This incoherence is due our understanding of natural laws, as the Philosopher Bilynskyj observes “…so long as natural laws are conceived of as universal inductive generalisations the notion of violation of a nature law is incoherent.”

Natural laws are inductive generalizations of patterns we observe in the universe. If the definition of a miracle is a violation of a natural law, in other words a violation of the patterns we observe in the universe, then an obvious conceptual problem occurs. The problem is: why can’t we take this perceived violation of the pattern as part of the pattern? Therefore the more coherent description of a miracle is not a ‘violation’ but an ‘impossibility’. The Philosopher William Lane Craig rejects the definition of a miracle as a “violation of a natural law” and replaces it with the coherent definition of “events which lie outside the productive capacity of nature”. What this means is that miracles are acts of impossibilities concerning causal or logical connections.

The Miraculous Qur’an

What makes the Qur’an a miracle, is that it lies outside the productive capacity of the nature of the Arabic language. The productive capacity of nature, concerning the Arabic language, is that any grammatically sound expression of the Arabic language will always fall within the known Arabic literary forms of Prose and Poetry.

The Qur’an is a miracle as its literary form cannot be explained via the productive capacity of the Arabic language, because all the possible combinations of Arabic words, letters and grammatical rules have been exhausted and yet the Qur’an’s literary form has not been imitated. The Arabs who were known to have been Arab linguists par excellence failed to successfully challenge the Qur’an. Forster Fitzgerald Arbuthnot who was a notable British Orientalist and translator states:

“…and that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none has as yet succeeded.”[1]

The implication of this is that there is no link between the Qur’an and the Arabic language; however this seems impossible because the Qur’an is made up of the Arabic language! On the other hand, all the combinations of Arabic words and letters have been used to try and imitate the Qur’an. Therefore, it can only be concluded that a supernatural explanation is the only coherent explanation for this impossible Arabic literary form – the Qur’an.

When we look at the productive nature of the Arabic language to find an answer for the unique literary form of the Qur’an, we find no link between it and the divine text, thus making it an impossibility requiring supernatural explanation. So it logically follows that if the Qur’an is a literary event that lies outside the productive capacity of the Arabic language, then, by definition, it is a miracle.

Please forward and share (and discuss!).

[1] F. F. Arbuthnot. 1885. The Construction of the Bible and the Koran. London, p 5.

Reply

Adonai88
07-05-2012, 09:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimah bird
Miracles of the quran is a good site with more than enough evidence to prove that Quran is the true word of God
other religions claim also miracles in the name of their respective God.......
Reply

muslimah bird
07-06-2012, 07:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Adonai88
other religions claim also miracles in the name of their respective God.......
But they dont have evidence to back it up and after investigation it is found to be a deception .
Reply

جوري
07-06-2012, 07:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Adonai88
other religions claim also miracles in the name of their respective God.......
All miracles die with their respective prophets Moses' 'Magic', Jesus' (healing). Quran is the only miracle that remains and obviously the most pertinent. Since parting seas, or healing lepers is of no use modern day.. However the transcendence of the noble Quran is relevant for every day & every period of time.

best,
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-06-2012, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
How is posting a discussion by 2 people about a particular subject regarding some words in the Koran evidence in any way for something? "The Qur’an attests to the corruption of the previous Scriptures" No, it doesn't. The Koran nowhere says: the Torah or Bible are corrupted. The humans in the Sunnah made this statement. This is all down to interpretation.
Who are the humans in the sunnah?
Reply

StopS
07-06-2012, 08:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ğħαrєєвαħ

Who are the humans in the sunnah?
Is this a trick question?

If not, then I don't understand it.
Or do you want the names of the authentic or Sahih Hadiths? Or the people who narrated something? No, because then you ask who WERE the humans.
As far as I know, the sunnah was collected by humans ~250 or 300 years after a human, Muhammad, first received a revelation in his cave and his words, sayings and actions were witnessed by humans who, in turn, told other humans.

Where in this chain of events is anything non-human? So, sorry, you will have to be more precise.
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-06-2012, 09:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Is this a trick question?

If not, then I don't understand it.
Or do you want the names of the authentic or Sahih Hadiths? Or the people who narrated something? No, because then you ask who WERE the humans.
As far as I know, the sunnah was collected by humans ~250 or 300 years after a human, Muhammad, first received a revelation in his cave and his words, sayings and actions were witnessed by humans who, in turn, told other humans.

Where in this chain of events is anything non-human? So, sorry, you will have to be more precise.
Nope, just a curious question.

Just sounds new and not something i've heard of.

I think your talking about the hadeeth. You seem so unsure as to what your talking about. the people who narrated something?

Although, I shall correct you a little..

Muhammad (Peace and blessings be unto him) recieved first revelation in the cave but not of HIS words, the word of God. Of course you'll disagree.

Can I ask, what was the name of this cave that Muhammad (P) recieved his first revelation in?

He did not recieve any 'sayings or actions', rather the 'hadeeth' are the sayings and the actions of the Messenger which were recorded by the sahaba (companions of the prophet), so different to the Qur'aan.

Your last line doesn't make sense. And let's be nice, i sense some sarcasm from your posts..
Reply

StopS
07-06-2012, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ğħαrєєвαħ

Nope, just a curious question.

Just sounds new and not something i've heard of.
Again: is this a trick? You don't know what the sunnah is and what it represents? I find that hard to believe.

I think your talking about the hadeeth. You seem so unsure as to what your talking about. the people who narrated something?
How do I seem unsure? That is what the hadiths are according to my knowledge: a person who knows someone who knew someone who said something he heard from someone etc. and eventually you end up in the early 7th century. Is my perception wrong?

Although, I shall correct you a little..

Muhammad (Peace and blessings be unto him) recieved first revelation in the cave but not of HIS words, the word of God. Of course you'll disagree.
What? Why?
I made 2 statements:
1. first received a revelation in his cave
2. his words, sayings and actions were witnessed by humans

so you see that we are in total agreement.

Can I ask, what was the name of this cave that Muhammad (P) recieved his first revelation in?
No, you may not.

He did not recieve any 'sayings or actions', rather the 'hadeeth' are the sayings and the actions of the Messenger which were recorded by the sahaba (companions of the prophet), so different to the Qur'aan.

Your last line doesn't make sense. And let's be nice, i sense some sarcasm from your posts..
You will need to read more carefully what I write, ok? And please stop projecting.
Reply

Adonai88
07-06-2012, 10:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimah bird
But they dont have evidence to back it up and after investigation it is found to be a deception .
Like the miracles of Jesus?
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-06-2012, 10:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Again: is this a trick? You don't know what the sunnah is and what it represents? I find that hard to believe.
It is not a trick, quit assuming things, please.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
How do I seem unsure? That is what the hadiths are according to my knowledge: a person who knows someone who knew someone who said something he heard from someone etc. and eventually you end up in the early 7th century. Is my perception wrong?
Perhaps I misunderstood you, my apologies.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
What? Why?
I made 2 statements:
1. first received a revelation in his cave
2. his words, sayings and actions were witnessed by humans
so you see that we are in total agreement.
So tell me, do you believe in what was revealed to the prophet (PBUH)- The Qur'aan, and the sunnah of the prophet (SAW)?

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
No, you may not.
If that's what you want, Okay.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
You will need to read more carefully what I write, ok? And please stop projecting.
Sure, i'll do that. Again I apologise, i should have read more carefully.
Reply

StopS
07-06-2012, 11:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ğħαrєєвαħ

It is not a trick, quit assuming things, please.
Oh come on, you can do better than that. I am not assuming, am I, when I am asking a question. Oh goodness, what level of communication is this?

Perhaps I misunderstood you, my apologies.
Thank you. That would explain it.

So tell me, do you believe in what was revealed to the prophet (PBUH)- The Qur'aan, and the sunnah of the prophet (SAW)?
Ooops, I don't fully understand. Are we talking about the contents of the revelation, the Koran? Do I believe the contents to be correct or that it is of divine origin, or both?
Sorry, but I don't want to assume something or answer a question that was not asked. The sunnah was not revealed, so it is completely different.

Let me try and define what I think I know about the textual hierarchy, ok?
We have the Koran, divinely conceived and written down on golden tablets in heaven, transmitted via Gabriel to Muhammad who memorised it and conveyed it to his followers, who eventually, due to circumstances I will not go into here, compiled it and wrote it down as the Koran.

We then have the scholarly exegesis of this text, which examines each word and explains its context and meaning, the various tafsirs.

About 120 years after Muhammad's death ibn Ishaq wrote the first text about the events, the text of which was destroyed and is partially reproduced by ibn Hisham 80 years later. This is also when the first saying were recorded, which resulted in huge collections of what Muhammad was said to have said and done 200 or 300 years earlier, by people who had a chain of narrative all the way to the early 7th century. This is commonly known as hadiths, where 80% were deemed unauthentic and destroyed and we have 6 authentic or sahih collections and several less reliable ones. In between these we have the qudsi, which are said to have originated from a god, but were not included in the Koran as such.

All of this has been subjected to scholarly scrutiny over the centuries and has led to interpretations which differ in details and has led to regional madhabs and groupings, which differ in rituals, jurisprudence and interpretations of the meaning of sayings.

That is what I am talking about and what I understand. If I am mistaken here, then please correct me. That's why I am here, after all, to learn from the experts, who use this every day.


If that's what you want, Okay.
Thank you for your understanding. I am not here to pass a knowledge test.

Sure, i'll do that. Again I apologise, i should have read more carefully.
Reply

Muhammad
07-06-2012, 11:15 PM
Greetings,

To clarify some confusion here:

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
The Koran nowhere says: the Torah or Bible are corrupted.
There are a number of verses to note in this regard:


So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book. [5:13-15]

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. [2:79]

Indeed, those who exchange the covenant of Allah and their [own] oaths for a small price will have no share in the Hereafter, and Allah will not speak to them or look at them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them; and they will have a painful punishment. And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah ," but it is not from Allah . And they speak untruth about Allah while they know. [3: 77-78]

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased. [3:187]
Reply

جوري
07-06-2012, 11:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
About 120 years after Muhammad's death ibn Ishaq wrote the first text about the events, the text of which was destroyed and is partially reproduced by ibn Hisham 80 years later. This is also when the first saying were recorded, which resulted in huge collections of what Muhammad was said to have said and done 200 or 300 years earlier, by people who had a chain of narrative all the way to the early 7th century. This is commonly known as hadiths, where 80% were deemed unauthentic and destroyed and we have 6 authentic or sahih collections and several less reliable ones. In between these we have the qudsi, which are said to have originated from a god, but were not included in the Koran as such.
Hadeeth has a science behind it which is divided by 3 other sciences all of which connect to the mustalah of hadeeth on top of which some of the muhaditheen differed in certain points so a reference like an article or a book would better help you to introduce the basic matters of hadeeth and its acceptability

you can read of the entire process here:
http://forums.understanding-islam.co...ths-are-saheeh
and here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/...ification.html

Of course you're incorrect about the compilation of hadith as you're the content of the Quran, and venture so say that you should really look up things about Islam and Muslims before sharing them with Islam and Muslims.
A mazhab is not a 'regional grouping' nor does it differ in meaning or interpretation. It is merely another acceptable way of doing something. Does washing your face first matter or brushing your teeth first thing in the morning.. No Mazhab will say forgo one or both or emphasize importance of one over the other.. rather leaves it open that there's more than one way of reaching the same end correctly.

Now, why do you concern yourself with such specifics of which you are obviously familiar from zero to nill when you don't even believe that God exists? What is the point of a discussion of this nature?
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-06-2012, 11:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Oh come on, you can do better than that. I am not assuming, am I, when I am asking a question. Oh goodness, what level of communication is this?
So your purpose of repeatedly asking the question although i've responded already?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ğħαrєєвαħ
Nope, just a curious question.
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Thank you. That would explain it.
You are welcome.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Ooops, I don't fully understand. Are we talking about the contents of the revelation, the Koran? Do I believe the contents to be correct or that it is of divine origin, or both?
Do you believe the contents to be correct and of divine origin?

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
About 120 years after Muhammad's death ibn Ishaq wrote the first text about the events, the text of which was destroyed and is partially reproduced by ibn Hisham 80 years later. This is also when the first saying were recorded, which resulted in huge collections of what Muhammad was said to have said and done 200 or 300 years earlier, by people who had a chain of narrative all the way to the early 7th century. This is commonly known as hadiths, where 80% were deemed unauthentic and destroyed and we have 6 authentic or sahih collections and several less reliable ones. In between these we have the qudsi, which are said to have originated from a god, but were not included in the Koran as such.
I'm not going to discuss the historical background of the Hadeeth as I do not deem myself knowledgeable enough, but i can say that your indeed incorrect in this statement.
Or atleast where did you get this information from?

I sincerely hope during your stay here you can gain some knowledge, inshaa'Allaah..

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
All of this has been subjected to scholarly scrutiny over the centuries and has led to interpretations which differ in details and has led to regional madhabs and groupings, which differ in rituals, jurisprudence and interpretations of the meaning of sayings.
But surely there is an authentic source which refers back to the original, if all of these groups were to stick to this source they wouldn't lead to so many interpretations. Meaning the actual Qur'aan and the sayings of the prophet (saaws), where one will follow the actual meaning and not other's that differ from the original or actual teachings i.e. the revelation from God and the ahadeeth.

Perhaps you should study the 'madhabs' and increase in knowledge, they are not considered incorrect. Again sister منوة الخيال has provided you links in order to look into the topic.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Thank you for your understanding. I am not here to pass a knowledge test.
No, I asked the question in order to know whether you are aware of what your talking about.

You mention so and so, i wanted to know if you simply know the name of the cave,which is only little amount of information so everyone whose read the details in full should know this, to me that shows that one has some amount of knowledge and isn't just saying what they heard or read somewhere, but rather that they actually took time to read up themselves. Although not assuming your one whose done this.
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-07-2012, 12:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreakOffALeash
So basically the way it is told is that the Quran was put together after Muhammad died by the collection of hadiths and compiled into one book.
So basically it would be essential to provide some evidence.

The Qur'aan was memorized during the time of prophet (SAW) by numerous companions, not only that it was written down on whatever could be found.

format_quote Originally Posted by FreakOffALeash
The issue with this is that numerous ayat of Muhammad could have been not memorized since not many people memorize things in one turn and there is also the fact that things he said could have been mistranslated by one unimportant word. Along with the fact numerous companions of Muhammad died and with them any possible ayat they may have known.
Nope that's not completely the case, perhaps you shouldn've done some studying..

Is that really so? Have you not seen the 9 year olds and those much older who've memorized the whole book from cover to cover? What evidence do you have?

During the khilafa of Abu Bakr (in which the battle of Yamama took place) many Qurra' did die, but bear in mind that during the lifetime of Muhammad (PBUH) the Qur'aan was written down on whatever could be found, palmed stalks, thin white stones, and more. Zaid bin Thabit was a well known scribe who used write down all that which was revealed to the prophet (pbuh), so he was ordered (by Abu Bakr RA) to collect the Qur'aan as he was trusted and the right person to do so, therefore he Zaid collected all the fragments from all that it was written on and from those who had also memorized it. So once completed the complete manuscript remained with Abu Bakr (ra) untill he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, who then passed it onto his daughter Hafsa. Later during Uthman's RA khilafa, Hudhaifa came to Uthman RA during the war which waged between 2 groups (people of sham and iraq)read the rest in narration below, perhaps you'd gain some more understanding..If not feel free to ask..

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

format_quote Originally Posted by FreakOffALeash
The Quran is more obviously corrupted and contradictory then the Bible actually. I am not trying to hurt any Muslim but it is truthful. You can not put so much emphasis on any book or dogma because it all comes down to your worship of one god.
But you can say that the Torah, zabur, injeel and Qur'aan have many things in common? some of the teachings. You'll find that most of that which are agreement with the Qur'aan aren't disregarded.

To say Qur'aan is corrupt or either, is just putting yourself in a position where I can say, provide your evidence, it is simply an opinion you display there and nothing more.

format_quote Originally Posted by FreakOffALeash
Any ignorance on your part that cannot be helped will be forgiven. You cannot blame a paralyzed man for not making salah or a blind men for not "reading" the Quran or a mute person for not reciting it.
Your right, nor does the Qur'aan blame neither
Reply

Perseveranze
07-07-2012, 02:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS

About 120 years after Muhammad's death ibn Ishaq wrote the first text about the events, the text of which was destroyed and is partially reproduced by ibn Hisham 80 years later. This is also when the first saying were recorded, which resulted in huge collections of what Muhammad was said to have said and done 200 or 300 years earlier, by people who had a chain of narrative all the way to the early 7th century. This is commonly known as hadiths, where 80% were deemed unauthentic and destroyed and we have 6 authentic or sahih collections and several less reliable ones. In between these we have the qudsi, which are said to have originated from a god, but were not included in the Koran as such.
1. The Islamic "hadith Sciences" is a far more advanced method of verifying historical data than the system western scholarship uses (to verify history), even till this very day.

So as far as historical reliability goes; it's extremely reliable.

2. Let me first see what you're referring to. Can you be specific on your claim, where were 80% of hadiths deemed unauthentic and destroyed?
Reply

Perseveranze
07-07-2012, 02:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreakOffALeash
The issue with this is that numerous ayat of Muhammad could have been not memorized since not many people memorize things in one turn and there is also the fact that things he said could have been mistranslated by one unimportant word.
Given the amateur-ness of the argument, I'm guessing you're new to this.

Have a read;


Thus, if the Qur'an had been transmitted only orally for the first century, sizeable variations between texts such as are seen in the hadith and pre-Islamic poetry would be found, and if it had been transmitted only in writing, sizeable variations such as in the different transmissions of the original document of the constitution of Medina would be found. But neither is the case with the Qur'an. There must have been a parallel written transmission limiting variation in the oral transmission to the graphic form, side by side with a parallel oral transmission preserving the written transmission from corruption. - Andrew Rippin (Ed.), Approaches Of The History of Interpretation Of The Qur'an, 1988, Clarendon Press, Oxford, p. 34.


And without wasting time; it should also be noted that even the majority of western Academic scholarship, believes that the Qur'an we have today, is the same Qur'an Muhammad(pbuh) preached.

ps. Your bible claim... a bit too far I'd say as far as reason and rational goes.
Reply

StopS
07-07-2012, 06:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by منوة الخيال

Hadeeth has a science behind it which is divided by 3 other sciences all of which connect to the mustalah of hadeeth on top of which some of the muhaditheen differed in certain points so a reference like an article or a book would better help you to introduce the basic matters of hadeeth and its acceptability

Of course you're incorrect about the compilation of hadith as you're the content of the Quran, and venture so say that you should really look up things about Islam and Muslims before sharing them with Islam and Muslims.
A mazhab is not a 'regional grouping' nor does it differ in meaning or interpretation. It is merely another acceptable way of doing something. Does washing your face first matter or brushing your teeth first thing in the morning.. No Mazhab will say forgo one or both or emphasize importance of one over the other.. rather leaves it open that there's more than one way of reaching the same end correctly.

Now, why do you concern yourself with such specifics of which you are obviously familiar from zero to nill when you don't even believe that God exists? What is the point of a discussion of this nature?
Thanks for the further information. I did not go into the methodology, just the hierarchy.

"of course" I am incorrect? If I am so incorrect, why don't you correct me? I am the Koran? I don't get it. Could you possibly manage to treat others like humans - even if they don't necessarily believe everything you do?

I am showing what I know and am asking for opinions/corrections/answers. You are providing none of that and just setting a bad example for Muslims. The Muslims I meet in real life are friendly, open and eager to discuss their belief and quite open about why they believe what they believe. You are none of that. You just criticise instead of providing constructive criticism. Why are you so uptight?

I put a map here showing the regional character of madhabs, but I am not allowed to show the source of my claim.


It seems you have your work cut out for a while as I don't make stuff up, but take it from reputable Islamic sources. Above is just an example.

All I said was "regional madhabs and groupings, which differ in rituals, jurisprudence and interpretations of the meaning of sayings" so what you are replying to is something you made up.

Why do you concern yourself with writing to me if you maintain I know nothing, am incorrect about everything I say and feel the need to school me about all sorts of things?

You see, you are a living negative.
When I first started showing interest in Islam I was told by Muslims: read the Koran. I did.
Then I was told: read the secondary texts. I tried.
Then I was told: read al least one tafsir. I did.
Then I was told: speak to an Imam. I did.
Then I was told: discuss this with a scholar. I did.
Then I was told: speak to Muslims who live this religion every day. I try and am treated like an outcast by some huffing and puffing Mr. high-'n-mighty.
Who the fuff do you think you are? What do you want? Are you here to help or do you prefer I get information about Islam from Jews or Christians? I think I am doing everything right and I think I deserve respect like any human does and which I show to you even though you did not earn it. Now either you shape up and engage in a friendly discussion or leave it.
Reply

StopS
07-07-2012, 06:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings,

To clarify some confusion here:

There are a number of verses to note in this regard:


So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book. [5:13-15]

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. [2:79]

Indeed, those who exchange the covenant of Allah and their [own] oaths for a small price will have no share in the Hereafter, and Allah will not speak to them or look at them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them; and they will have a painful punishment. And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah ," but it is not from Allah . And they speak untruth about Allah while they know. [3: 77-78]

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased. [3:187]
Thank you for this compilation. Yes, this is my point. The examples above show that the topic is the usage of words and not the scripture itself. People are the cause of the corruption and later messengers were sent to rectify the people who had gone astray.

The Koran mentions books and people of the book several times. Islamic scholars are not in agreement, who the people of the book actually are (Nasr, Seyyed Hossein).
Similarly, 3:64 calls for tolerance in that "O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you" and the Koran mentions in 22:17 "Those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Sabians, Christians, Magians and Polytheists — God will judge them On the Day of Judgement" the solution.

This means that it is not the Koran itself which specifically mentions the alleged corruption, but the humans interpreting it.
Reply

StopS
07-07-2012, 07:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ğħαrєєвαħ
Do you believe the contents to be correct and of divine origin?
Not without conclusive proof. The topic and decision is regarding my entire life here on Earth and then eternity in an alleged afterlife, so I would want to be very sure I take the right decision based on an informed opinion.

I'm not going to discuss the historical background of the Hadeeth as I do not deem myself knowledgeable enough, but i can say that your indeed incorrect in this statement.
Or atleast where did you get this information from?

I sincerely hope during your stay here you can gain some knowledge, inshaa'Allaah..
Are you for real?

I do not deem myself knowledgeable enough - i can say that your indeed incorrect


If you have insufficient knowledge, what is your premise of concluding I am wrong???

I am looking to expand my knowledge, but so far, not a lot is forthcoming.

But surely there is an authentic source which refers back to the original, if all of these groups were to stick to this source they wouldn't lead to so many interpretations. Meaning the actual Qur'aan and the sayings of the prophet (saaws), where one will follow the actual meaning and not other's that differ from the original or actual teachings i.e. the revelation from God and the ahadeeth.

Perhaps you should study the 'madhabs' and increase in knowledge, they are not considered incorrect. Again sister منوة الخيال has provided you links in order to look into the topic.
And what? The Koran is just the pointer. It is rarely precise and contains very few hard facts, which is why scholars have been debating for centuries about the interpretation of sentences and what sign this is sending.


No, I asked the question in order to know whether you are aware of what your talking about.

You mention so and so, i wanted to know if you simply know the name of the cave,which is only little amount of information so everyone whose read the details in full should know this, to me that shows that one has some amount of knowledge and isn't just saying what they heard or read somewhere, but rather that they actually took time to read up themselves.
How is a detail like a name of a cave relevant to the knowledge a person has?

So you want some background?

Because there are no records of the angel talking to the messenger, humans have estimated this to be "approximately" "Monday night, 21. Ramadan, that is 10. August, 610 CE, with Muhammad aged exactly 40 years, 6 months and 12 days of age, that is, 39 Gregorian years, 3 months and 22 days". Muslims simply declare this, knowing it is just as imaginary as the birth date of Jesus.

Muslims have also established the precise location: "3 km from Mecca, it was a small cave 3.5 m long and 1.6 m wide" and gave it a name: Hira.


Although not assuming your one whose done this.
Really? What makes you assume this? Stop being obnoxious, please. How do you think I know the rest of what I wrote? Which I did not look up, by the way, but wrote from the top of my head.
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Muhammad
07-07-2012, 08:07 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Thank you for this compilation. Yes, this is my point. The examples above show that the topic is the usage of words and not the scripture itself. People are the cause of the corruption and later messengers were sent to rectify the people who had gone astray.
I am not sure I understand your point. Earlier you said, 'The Koran nowhere says: the Torah or Bible are corrupted'. Now you are saying corruption did take place, but it was through words only and by the people. Have you changed your argument?

The Koran mentions books and people of the book several times. Islamic scholars are not in agreement, who the people of the book actually are (Nasr, Seyyed Hossein).
It is best to refer to those scholars who are well-versed in Qur'anic exegesis. Moreover, it is quite clear from the context who is being referred to. In some verses, there is clear mention of Jews and Christians.

Similarly, 3:64 calls for tolerance in that "O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you" and the Koran mentions in 22:17 "Those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Sabians, Christians, Magians and Polytheists — God will judge them On the Day of Judgement" the solution.

This means that it is not the Koran itself which specifically mentions the alleged corruption, but the humans interpreting it.
What I see here is interpretation of the Qur'an by yourself. Why do you feel your interpretation deserves credibility over that of qualified scholars? You have quoted a scholar above when you feel it suits your cause. Why do you not refer to the words of scholars in other cases also?
Reply

M.I.A.
07-07-2012, 08:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings,

I am not sure I understand your point. Earlier you said, 'The Koran nowhere says: the Torah or Bible are corrupted'. Now you are saying corruption did take place, but it was through words only and by the people. Have you changed your argument?

It is best to refer to those scholars who are well-versed in Qur'anic exegesis. Moreover, it is quite clear from the context who is being referred to. In some verses, there is clear mention of Jews and Christians.


What I see here is interpretation of the Qur'an by yourself. Why do you feel your interpretation deserves credibility over that of qualified scholars? You have quoted a scholar above when you feel it suits your cause. Why do you not refer to the words of scholars in other cases also?
and sabiens, those resembling (in faith) jews and christians in part.

"Those who believe, those who became Jewish, and the Christians, and the Sabians - any who believe in God and the Last Day, and performs good deeds - on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Al-Maidah 5:69)

quickly Google'd it, not sure who they were exactly or how they fitted in with the jews "with history"
Reply

جوري
07-07-2012, 08:45 PM
They were followers of the prophet yahya (John the baptist) most Jews stop at Zacharia, Mandeans and Sabeans who are a few left in Iraq stop at prophet Yahya as the last messanger!

best,
Reply

True-blue
07-07-2012, 09:25 PM
Uffffff!!! Are you guys seriously arguing with someone like StopS whose comments are mostly wayward assertions?

Do not waste your precious time if you have any other things to do. He will persistently make sooooo many wayward assertions (He is an expert on this) that it will mostly waste your time. This guy is an Islam haters who are collecting information to distort them and make Youtube videos to mock Islam. He is known for attacking Islam and Muslims through his videos and also his comments. Just check Youtube and other Islamic forums.
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-07-2012, 09:28 PM
Greetings of peace StopS,

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Not without conclusive proof. The topic and decision is regarding my entire life here on Earth and then eternity in an alleged afterlife, so I would want to be very sure I take the right decision based on an informed opinion.
All the best in finding the right path.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Are you for real?
I do not deem myself knowledgeable enough - i can say that your indeed incorrect
If you have insufficient knowledge, what is your premise of concluding I am wrong???
I am looking to expand my knowledge, but so far, not a lot is forthcoming.
I have no premise, so take back what I said. Although what I should've initially said is that I disagree.

Also, it would be nice to provide references to your statements.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ğħαrєєвαħ
I'm not going to discuss the historical background of the Hadeeth as I do not deem myself knowledgeable enough, but i can say that your indeed incorrect in this statement.
However, I do believe the ahadeeth to be reliable source, and well your comment did not add up, perhaps from what i've read and listened to in regards to ahadeeth in the past, perhaps that's why I chose to say you are incorrect, but what I should've said is that I disagree. Maybe you'd like to watch this, there are 8 parts to it, since you want to expand your knowledge.

An introduction to hadeeth - by Jordan Brown

--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZQ8m...eature=related <---

You mentioned the hadeeth was said to have said and done 200 and 300 years earlier, by people who had a chain of narrative all the way to the early 7th century, can you provide evidence for this?

Also where were 80% ahadeeths deemed unauthentic and destroyed?

It would be really helpful if you could provide references to your statements.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
And what? The Koran is just the pointer. It is rarely precise and contains very few hard facts, which is why scholars have been debating for centuries about the interpretation of sentences and what sign this is sending.
In all due respect, I disagree.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
How is a detail like a name of a cave relevant to the knowledge a person has?
So you want some background?
Because there are no records of the angel talking to the messenger
I only asked a simple question to which you did not wish to respond to earlier. You mentioned details in regards to the cave, so I wondered if you knew the name, that's all. Your right it isn't relevant. I hope we can move on from this.

This narration below does show the angel talking to the messenger (SAW), and not the only case.

Volumn 009, Book 087, Hadith Number 111.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Aisha : The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good righteous (true) dreams in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light. He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship(Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights. He used to take with him the journey food for that (stay) and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again for another period to stay, till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him in it and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." (The Prophet added), "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, "I do not know how to read," whereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, "I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?)." Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me and then released me and said, "Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists). Has created man from a clot. Read and Your Lord is Most Generous... up to... that which he knew not." (96.15)

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
humans have estimated this to be "approximately" "Monday night, 21. Ramadan, that is 10. August, 610 CE, with Muhammad aged exactly 40 years, 6 months and 12 days of age, that is, 39 Gregorian years, 3 months and 22 days". Muslims simply declare this, knowing it is just as imaginary as the birth date of Jesus.
Out of curiousity, do you have a source for this?

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Muslims simply declare this, knowing it is just as imaginary as the birth date of Jesus.
For what purpose exactly do you make such a statement, i'm sure you know well muslims do not regard the birth of Jesus nor Muhammad (PBUTA) as imaginary.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Really? What makes you assume this? Stop being obnoxious, please. How do you think I know the rest of what I wrote? Which I did not look up, by the way, but wrote from the top of my head.
Have I caused offense to you in any way? or have been hateful towards you?

All I want is a pleasant discussion.

I'd like to clear it up myself if it has seemed that way from my posting, I have no intention to come across as obnoxious, if I have, then I apologise.

Peace
Reply

StopS
07-08-2012, 10:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by True-blue
Uffffff!!! Are you guys seriously arguing with someone like StopS whose comments are mostly wayward assertions?

Do not waste your precious time if you have any other things to do. He will persistently make sooooo many wayward assertions (He is an expert on this) that it will mostly waste your time. This guy is an Islam haters who are collecting information to distort them and make Youtube videos to mock Islam. He is known for attacking Islam and Muslims through his videos and also his comments. Just check Youtube and other Islamic forums.
Do you have proof for a single one of your preposterous claims?
Reply

StopS
07-08-2012, 10:15 PM
Hi,

Sorry if I have seemed unfair to you. I have been met with such hate and culling of my posts that I can't have a civilised discussion here. You raise some interesting points, but I can't answer as my views are deleted or modified. It seems I am too straight and honest. Sorry.
Reply

Muhammad
07-08-2012, 10:28 PM
Greetings StopS,

The posts I deleted were those which were not pertaining to the discussion, and were in response to another member whose posts were also removed. I have not removed any of your replies to sister Ghareebah.
Reply

StopS
07-08-2012, 10:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings StopS,

The posts I deleted were those which were not pertaining to the discussion, and were in response to another member whose posts were also removed. I have not removed any of your replies to sister Ghareebah.
Thanks for the clarification. Sounds a lot better now.
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