Confusion of the dawns

[Zobia]

Assalamu Alaikum,

I have a problem and inshallah some of you may be able to advise me. Ok, i found that the true timing of the fajr prayer is when the 2nd dawn in the sky appears. There are 2 dawns, one that is vertical (false dawn - not allowed to pray fajr then) and the horizontal dawn that is white and runs across the horizon left to right (true dawn - time for fajr)
Now thing is, I'm trying to determine the start of fajr prayer by looking at the sky since some timetables aren't always accurate and I dont want to run the risk of unintentionally reading fajr too early etc, and the true time for fajr is by looking and seeing if the 2nd dawn has appeared.

I have tried to find the 2nd dawn, sometimes i think i can and i think yeah thats the 2nd dawn, other times i cannot see it and i'm confused and then i dont know if salah was done during the right time and its hard but i dont want to rely on timetables since they could be wrong and i dont want to run the risk of reading fajr too early etc and like today wasnt sunny so i couldnt see anything; it was just cloudy and so i saw no sun and when it did become light-ish i thought this was the right time but then it got really bright really quick so i dont know

Thing is, if anyone here knows about the 2 dawns and knows about them confidently, then could you in simple terms, explain to me the 2 dawns , the characteristics of each simply so that i know confidently what to look out for, make it simple, and also another point, can anyone find out whether or not salah is invalid despite ur efforts in attempting to determine the time of fajr, say if one looks out at the sky, tries to find the dawn, thinks they've found it, but unintentionally without knowing, they prayed at the wrong time bcs they determined the dawn wrong accidentally, does this mean the salah of the person is invalid despite if its all unintentional but they tried to find the right time?
provide evidence from authentic hadiths and qu'ran,inshallah

Jazakallah Khairun

[Qurratul Ayn]

:bump:

This sounds interesting... Insha'Allaah someone should be able to answer your questions

[Zobia]

Inshallah. The worst thing is to be reading prayer at the wrong time :|

[glo]

Isn't the worst thing not to read prayer at all?
If your intention is right and your mistake genuine, isn't the prayer still accepted?

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[Zobia]

I agree, its the worst thing to not read at all, but Allah has commanded us to read prayers at their fixed times and its one of the conditions of a valid prayer inshallah

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

http://alternativeentertainment.word...he-false-dawn/

[Hamza Asadullah]

I agree, its the worst thing to not read at all, but Allah has commanded us to read prayers at their fixed times and its one of the conditions of a valid prayer inshallah

:wa:

Yes but nowadays we have all of this sorted for us in our local Masjid prayer timetables. Although there are differences of opinion regarding true dawn those differences are valid hence the lay person will not be accountable on the day of judgement nor asked why they followed a certain Masjid timetable.

So follow a local Masjid timetable that one trusts and relies on and that is sufficient without having to give anymore time to this matter than it deserves. But there is nothing wrong with looking at the opinions and evidences as provided by the link by brother Muraad in order to gain some knowledge and clarity on the matter but there goes not need to be any debate about it.

And Allah knows best in all matters

['Abd-al Latif]

:salamext:

Really, really sorry for the late reply. Please forgive me, I've been busy.

Here's what you should know about the two dawns.

There are two types of 'dawns'. They are:

1. The false dawn (al-fajr-ul kaadhib). This dawn does not signal the start of the fajr prayer nor does it prohibit one from eating or drinking (for the one who intends to fast)
2. The true dawn (al-fajr-us saadiq). This is the one that signals the beginning time of the fajr prayer and makes forbidden food and drink for the fasting person.

Ibn 'Abbas (r) said that Allah's Messenger (:saws1:) said: "The fajr is two fajr. As for the first then it does not make food forbidden, nor does it make the prayer lawful. As for the second, it makes the food forbidden and the prayer lawful." (Reported by Ibn Khuzaima, Al Haakim, Ad-Daaraquntee and al Baihaqee)

Here when the Messenger :saws1: forbade food, he meant for the fasting person, and just for the sake of clarity the word 'fajr' means 'dawn', so don't get confused when the Messenger (saw) said that the fajr is two. To further clarify what was meant about the two dawns:

(1) The false fajr is the rising verticle column of whiteness which appears looking like the tail of a fox.
(2) The true fajr is the horizontal spreading reddishness which can be seen above the mountain passes and mountain tops, which spreads its light throughout the roads, streets and houses. It is this one upon which the rulings of fasting and prayer depend.

From Sumarah (r) who said that the Messenger (:saws1:) said: "Let not the adhaan of Bilal deceive you, nor this vertical whiteness of dawn until it spreads horizontally." (Reported in Muslim)

He (:saws1:) also said: "Eat and drink and do not let the tall vertical brighness deceive you, but eat and drink until the reddish one spreads horizontally for you." (Reported in Tirmidhi, Abu Dawood, Ahmed and others)

The description of the true fajr is also in the ayaat of Surah Al Baqarah: "Until the white thread (light) of dawn appears to you distinct from the black thread (blackness of the night)..." (Surah Al Baqarah 2:187)

When the light of fajr spreads over the mountain passes and the mountain tops appear like a white thread, and a black thread appears above it, it is this which is the remnants of the darkness which is passing away.

So when this becomes clear to you then this is the time when the call for prayer for fajr should be given.

I hope this helps.

w/salam

[glo]

It would be good to see an image of what these two dawns look like.
I can visualise the reddish light which comes with the dawn, but I have never seen a rising vertical column of whiteness which appears looking like the tail of a fox.
Does anybody have a link?

[glo]

I found this link. Don't know how authentic it is, but it shows pictures of the true and the false fajr.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/43478202/D...and-False-Dawn

Looks complicated to me. Why not simply rely on the prayer calendar from your local mosque?

['Abd-al Latif]

I found this link. Don't know how authentic it is, but it shows pictures of the true and the false fajr.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/43478202/D...and-False-Dawn

Looks complicated to me. Why not simply rely on the prayer calendar from your local mosque?

Yeah that's pretty much correct though the first picture looks enchanced to me. The local mosques derive the prayer times on their calendars from the above discussion.

It's not that complicated, you just have to see the two dawns to distinguish between them.

[glo]

It's not that complicated, you just have to see the two dawns to distinguish between them.

I watched a sunrise a couple of weeks ago, but did not notice anything that looked like the false dawn. Perhaps I didn't get there in time.
Do you know if every dawn have a false dawn? And how long before the true dawn it occurs?

['Abd-al Latif]

I watched a sunrise a couple of weeks ago, but did not notice anything that looked like the false dawn. Perhaps I didn't get there in time.
Do you know if every dawn have a false dawn? And how long before the true dawn it occurs?

I think it's approximately half an hour before the true dawn. It depends on the season as during summer it might be sooner than that.

[amanshaikh1086]

Good questions and answers. Learnt many new things.

- Aman

[Abz2000]

*Narrated Ash-Sha'bi: 'Adi took a white rope (or thread) and a black one, and when some part of the night had passed, he looked at them but he could not distinguish one from the other. The next morning he said, "O Allah's Apostle! I put (a white thread and a black thread) underneath my pillow." The Prophet said, "Then your pillow is too wide if the white thread (of dawn) and the black thread (of the night) are underneath your pillow! "


**37**Narrated 'Adi bin Hatim: I said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the meaning of the white thread distinct from the black thread? Are these two threads?" He said, "You are not intelligent if you watch the two threads." He then added, "No, it is the darkness of the night and the whiteness of the day.''

**38**Narrated Sahl bin Sad: The Verse:-- "And eat and drink until the white thread appears to you distinct from the black thread." was revealed, but: '... of dawn' was not revealed (along with it) so some men, when intending to fast, used to tie their legs, one with white thread and the other with black thread and would keep on eating till they could distinguish one thread from the other. Then Allah revealed' ... of dawn,' whereupon they understood that meant the night and the day. *

Sahih al Bukhari