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Sweetshot
09-13-2012, 09:43 PM
Hello

I am just wanting to know if free speech exists in Islam? I think No because of the stories I hear in the media about muslims wanting to censor certain things that they find offensive.

If it doesn't exist then how can people in Islam ever discuss and debate new ideas and move on if they can't say whatever they want whenever they want?

Cheers.
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جوري
09-13-2012, 11:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sweetshot
I am just wanting to know if free speech exists in Islam?
format_quote Originally Posted by Sweetshot
I think No
Why do you pose a Q is you already have the answer? Not allowing us much room for free speech here either are you?
Do you know the difference between 'free speech' - 'hate speech' and frank libel and slander..
'Free speech' like questioning the holocaust can land you in jail in the 'free west' so I've no idea why you bother with this non-question, which seems like you've already answered for yourself!

best,
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Scimitar
09-14-2012, 12:43 AM
"media" :D if we buy what they are selling, we're more lost than Gulliver...

Scimi
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Aprender
09-14-2012, 02:07 AM
Yes. Free speech exists in Islam.
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- Qatada -
09-14-2012, 08:09 AM
It exists :) Except every nation has its own values which they respect, no-one should insult them. That's mere insult, not freedom of speech.

Its like someone swearing or insulting your parents, that isn't freedom of speech, same way no-one has the right to insult God and His Messengers'.
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Hulk
09-14-2012, 08:53 AM
There is certainly room for questioning, discussion or debate if you want to call it that in Islam. At the same time wouldn't you agree that people should be responsible with what they say? If your idea of free speech is to be able to say whatever offensive things you want without backlash then that is plain stupidity.

Just look at this forum, you have a different sub sections and one of them is where you can "discuss and debate". The free speech you are talking about that "offends" muslims is not freedom of speech but freedumb of speech.
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Insaanah
09-14-2012, 09:51 AM
Greetings.

If by freedom of speech you mean that anyone should be able to say anything they want about anyone/anything, even if that is wrong/offensive, then no.

In Islam, we have guidelines for everything, inluding speech, which, amongst other things, are based on respect, and thus certain types of speech are unacceptable, such as backbiting, slander, lies etc.

So in Islam, the maxim isn't that you can say anything at all about anyone. No. There are limits, just as we have limits to what we can eat/drink, how we dress etc. We can enjoy full relations with the opposite gender within the institution of marriage, we can eat and drink freely from what God has told us is good and lawful for us, so we can speak freely within the guidelines laid down for us.

Here are some examples from the Qur'an of disliked/forbidden types of speech:

Allah does not like that evil should be uttered in public except by him who has been wronged. And Allah is Ever All-Hearer, All-Knower. (4:148)

And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allah, lest they insult Allah wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair-seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall then inform them of all that they used to do. (6:108)

O you who have believed, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet or be loud to him in speech like the loudness of some of you to others, lest your deeds become worthless while you perceive not. (49:2)

O you who have believed, let not a people ridicule [another] people; perhaps they may be better than them; nor let women ridicule [other] women; perhaps they may be better than them. And do not defame one another and do not call each other by [offensive] nicknames. Wretched is the name of disobedience after [one's] faith. And whoever does not repent - then it is those who are the wrongdoers. (49:11)

O you who have believed, Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins. And do not spy or backbite each other. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would detest it (so detest the other). And fear Allah; indeed, Allah is Accepting of repentance and Merciful. (49:12)

Your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him, and that you be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour. (17:23)

Peace.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-14-2012, 10:11 AM
a muslim is constantly taught that the two organs which can lead a person to hell is the tongue and what lies between the thighs.


Where a muslim is constantly taught to speak good or remain silent and uphold whats right, we are also taught not to stand for sickening allegations attrociously hurled against the master (Muhammad peace be upon him) whom we all hold more dear to our hearts then our own parents.

if you wish to speak freely then do so constructively, destructive speech will only bring about what its nature beckons.
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Abu.Yusuf
09-16-2012, 02:25 PM
Absolute freedom of speech cannot exist, so theres no use in trying to champion it.
Like said about, in countries places like USA and UK etc, you cannot say anything you want can you? You cannot openly be racist, cannot insult homosexuals and others - so why pretend you have freedom of speech yet accept restrictions?

To answer your question more directly, perhaps if you follow this you would get a better understanding of Islaam:

Islaam from its very basic meaning means to submit to the Creator - as opposed to submitting to ones own desires. Straight away this means that we cannot do whatever we like, say whatever we like or believe whatever we like. All of this has to be authorised by God [hence we follow His Messengers/Books/guidance].

Now, God has told us certain obligations and certain prohibited/disliked actions - after these God has allowed us to have freedom. Certain parts of His laws have to be strictly followed without alteration [such as acts of ritual worship and others] while others parts have general guidelines with more leeway for us to decide [like in many things, dont no where to start].


After all that, those who followed His laws would be rewarded whilst those who believed in it but did not follow as much as required would be both punished and rewarded and those who didnt believe in it would be punished but not reward.

So we urge you to find out more about it and hopefully embrace it - as we dont want people punished
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Abu.Yusuf
09-16-2012, 10:41 PM
[Definitely the wrong place to write this], but i was curious as to what 'reputation received' means. JZK and sorry for posting it here...and please reply briefly so we can get back to the discussion at hand.
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Sweetshot
09-17-2012, 04:10 AM
Thanks for all your replies. I dont think the UK has freedom of speech fully yet but were getting close. Someone said that in the UK you cant be racist and homophobic or you'll go to jail sorry but that just isnt true. There are many groups that are openly homophobic and racist and facist that go about doing what they do without doing jail time. look at the groups islamuk and edl. Look at the usa and groups like the westboro baptist church. For me as long as you're not arranging and conspiring to beat up or kill or tortuere people who you dont like you can be as loving or as hateful in your speech. I see we are reaching a current trend in the uk and the west in general that people dont have the freedom to debate pressing issues at the moment such as immigration, civil liberties, equality without the fear of saying something that is going to offend groups of people and you know soon were going to be looking to our governbment to what we can and cant say and then what we can and cant do... and then you know we'll think something wrong and government will crack down... 1984 anyone?! I just think there are many ways to not get offended by something somebody says and what does it matter anyway if it offends you right? if you want to put a religous spin on it then your god will punish them for what they did right? he's not going to punish you for what they said? It has shown itself recently with the murders of diplomats in islam countries from something an american pastor put on youtube... am i the only one who finds that whole sentence pathetic...? people lost their lives because of a youtube clip. you know there are a couple of clips on the net that really infuriate me and offended me to my core am i now justified in killing people because of said clips? (rhetorical) i digress to me the murders are sad and shouldn't of happened but the bigger question to me is and it comes to freedom of speech, behaviour like this, wether one of the faith feels it is justified as somebody posted verse from the quran about public speaking or your freedoms of speech in islam which to me is a bit ironic, rules for your freedom of speech but anyway as i said about ideas and movements being criticised how are the conversations or debates i mentioned ever to happen if groups and i dont just mean muslims any group what now if the gay community or the neo nazi community of the liberals what ever took a leaf from the muslims book, and i generalize here for my point but anyway what if the neo nazi decided that the country of sweden was doing wrong by having equality for all races.. and started killing people to and protesting all round the world to try change swedens law, not going to happen and its an extreme but any of you see where I'm at on this whole freedom of speech thing? its not just some "hey in islam you cant say nothing bad bout your prophet yeh so how youz all got freedom of speech lolzzz so im gonna come on dis forum to prove youz all rong haha lolol" I signed up to the forum because i want to believe that muslims like the rest of humanity in general are good people who value freedom and each others personal liberty that the majority of the horrors i read or see on the net are just the minority however i asked this first question maybe it was inflammatory, sorry, worded it wrong i guess but most of the replies have just been i dont know why you ask this question you dont even have feedom of speech in the west so lol. My opinion is simple and only that an opinion but here in the uk we have an ok freedom of speech at the moment like i said not good enough for me yet but to say in muslim countries and im not just on about religous issues like blasphemy im on about issues like a gay man having the freedom to be publicy gay, the freedom to speak out against your government, the freedom to speak against the status quo, you cannot do this in countries like iran syria jordan and to say you can is ignoring the facts to suit an agenda. I mean here in the uk we allow muslim protesters to protest at british soldiers funerals we allow the edl to protest randomly it seems and just like in america the westboro baptist church is allowed to protest us troops funerals. to me fredom of speech does not mean the right to be offended. sorry for the wall of text 5am here just about to head off to work.

Cheers.
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PurpleCup
09-22-2012, 11:13 PM
Muslims will always respond accourding to what the Quran and Hadiths say for them to view any topic. If there is any topic outside of that realm sure they can say as they like.
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StopS
09-23-2012, 12:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
There is certainly room for questioning, discussion or debate if you want to call it that in Islam. At the same time wouldn't you agree that people should be responsible with what they say? If your idea of free speech is to be able to say whatever offensive things you want without backlash then that is plain stupidity.

Just look at this forum, you have a different sub sections and one of them is where you can "discuss and debate". The free speech you are talking about that "offends" muslims is not freedom of speech but freedumb of speech.
I personally have never come across a forum or board which is more heavily censored than this one.

I personally have never come across a country which shuts down Twitter or YouTube or Google or Facebook or any society-critical sites other than a Muslim majority country.

If your experiences are different, please inform me, if I am wrong, please correct me.
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جوري
09-23-2012, 12:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
I personally have never come across a forum or board which is more heavily censored than this one.
Doesn't explain why you're still here ranting on every thread.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
if I am wrong, please correct me
I just did!
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Ramadhan
09-23-2012, 04:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
I personally have never come across a forum or board which is more heavily censored than this one.
you being here and spout whatever fancies your fantasy certainly contradict your opinion above.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
I personally have never come across a country which shuts down Twitter or YouTube or Google or Facebook or any society-critical sites other than a Muslim majority country.
Actually, Google and Youtube censored themselves.

And have you not heard of china?
Like, the world's most populous nation?
You cannot even access twitter in China.

Meanwhile, Indonesia, the world's largest muslim nation, is among the most top active twittering per internet user.

And have you not heard how Google, Youtube, Facebook, took down any article/video/comment that is exposing the crimes of israeli government and/or denying holocaust?

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
If your experiences are different, please inform me, if I am wrong, please correct me.
I've corrected every single ignorant opinion you wrote in your brief post.
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Scimitar
09-23-2012, 04:39 AM
StopS got pwned :D
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جوري
09-23-2012, 05:02 AM
we don't need to lower our standards to accommodate the riffraff .. every club/ institution/academic medium reserves the rights to set its own criteria of what is acceptable and of its rules & regulations. If you don't comply with them you get expelled 'free speech' or not. If you don't like it here then don't be a member here!
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Aprender
09-23-2012, 05:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
I personally have never come across a country which shuts down Twitter or YouTube or Google or Facebook or any society-critical sites other than a Muslim majority country.

If your experiences are different, please inform me, if I am wrong, please correct me.
There is a country called China. Look it up.

China didn't allow Google into the market for quite some time and they're still having problems with it. As a matter of fact, Google had to create a subsidiary known as Google China Inc. over there because of problems that they've had with hacking and censoring. The Google.ch address had to be redirected to a Hong Kong url because of these issues.

Baidu is actually the #1 search engine in China. Google is having a tough time infiltrating that market because of the restrictions that the Chinese government has placed on it and the censoring that takes place on internet searches with Google done from internet users in China.

Also, have you heard of North Korea? Cuba?

Try to get out more.
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StopS
09-23-2012, 05:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

you being here and spout whatever fancies your fantasy certainly contradict your opinion above.
Actually, no. I have had posts edited and deleted at whim. I am polite and try to be honest and correct. Yes, I makje mistakes, but I learn from them.

Actually, Google and Youtube censored themselves.

And have you not heard of china?
Like, the world's most populous nation?
You cannot even access twitter in China.

Meanwhile, Indonesia, the world's largest muslim nation, is among the most top active twittering per internet user.

And have you not heard how Google, Youtube, Facebook, took down any article/video/comment that is exposing the crimes of israeli government and/or denying holocaust?
Ooops, I forgot to specify: "free country". Yes, that was my mistake.

Well, if you would ask instead of displaying an arrogant stance I would have explained that free speech has limits. And denying the holocaust or any genocide is way above the limit. It has nothing to do with censorship. Deleting one of posts because "There are a number of things which aren't correct in the post." is not exactly informative and useful to learn something.

But it is true, it looks as though people here are too aggressive for me to learn anything. But I suppose I will be told it is all my fault because that's what people do: look for faults in others.

I've corrected every single ignorant opinion you wrote in your brief post.
Hahaha, you wish.... Oh and are you sure you know what ignorant means?:omg:
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جوري
09-23-2012, 05:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Actually, no. I have had posts edited and deleted at whim. I am polite and try to be honest and correct. Yes, I makje mistakes, but I learn from them.
Actually yes!
You're neither polite, nor honest. If you had posts edited then refer to FAQ to see what rules you've broken and generally try to familiarize yourself with those before joining any institution!


format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Ooops, I forgot to specify: "free country". Yes, that was my mistake.
Define 'free'


format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Well, if you would ask instead of displaying an arrogant stance I would have explained that free speech has limits. And denying the holocaust or any genocide is way above the limit. It has nothing to do with censorship. Deleting one of posts because "There are a number of things which aren't correct in the post." is not exactly informative and useful to learn something.
You constantly contradict yourself.
You can't speak of freedom, in the same breath caps on said freedom and in the same breath accuse others of wanting to limit that freedom. You need some courses in logic amongst other things!


format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
But it is true, it looks as though people here are too aggressive for me to learn anything. But I suppose I will be told it is all my fault because that's what people do: look for faults in others.
You're not here to learn.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Hahaha, you wish.... Oh and are you sure you know what ignorant means?
hahahaha.. do you know how to spell?

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
I makje mistakes

if you're going to haha.. at least make sure what you spew is immaculate!


best,
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StopS
09-23-2012, 05:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
StopS got pwned :D
Well, it shows that you should never assume the others know what you mean and if something can be used against you, it will be used against you.

But you are right, if I make a mistake, I deserve to be rebuked.
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CosmicPathos
09-23-2012, 08:11 PM
Free speech is an evil thing. It should be curbed.
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جوري
09-23-2012, 08:45 PM
have a look at the french:

http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/0...8KLI5W20120921

bunch of cowards.. so much for free speech ey?
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Independent
09-23-2012, 08:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
Free speech is an evil thing. It should be curbed.
You should be very happy. For billions of people around the world, it already is.
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جوري
09-23-2012, 08:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
You should be very happy. For billions of people around the world, it already is.
and the other billions are simply lying about what it means to be free!

best,
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CosmicPathos
09-23-2012, 09:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
You should be very happy. For billions of people around the world, it already is.
no one is free. I also consider you to be enslaved in the shackles of your perception.
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StopS
09-23-2012, 10:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
Free speech is an evil thing. It should be curbed.
Imagine living in a country or society where saying "Free speech is an evil thing" will get you executed. Can you imagine that?

For me it is very important that I can voice my opinion and so can everybody else. Where if a person comes along and says: "Free speech is an evil thing", this results in a conversation about this and not a court trial, censorship or beheading.

If you want to live in a society where everything you say will be judged then so be it, but don't expect others to like it or to agree with you.

If you say free speech should be curbed, by how much exactly should it be curbed? Who decides by how much and what is tolerated. Will you get prosecuted if you say: stupid weather, because it is an insult?
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Aprender
09-23-2012, 10:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
stupid weather, because it is an insult?
I don't think the weather would be insulted as it is not capable of making a case against that.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
If you want to live in a society where everything you say will be judged then so be it, but don't expect others to like it or to agree with you.
We already live in a society like this.
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Abdullaah
09-24-2012, 06:57 AM
I myself would just rather ban you from this forum than argue with you stops, but these moderators and other forumers are more generous it seems with their answers, time, patience to debate with you and answer you in a generally polite and patiently educative manner. As for me, having read your posts in this thread I believe your speech should be banned because you are here to argue it seems not learn or reason.
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StopS
09-24-2012, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
I don't think the weather would be insulted as it is not capable of making a case against that.

Can someone like Plato?


We already live in a society like this.
I don't know about you, but I can go and stand on a box or a ladder and say pretty much anything I want. Nobody but my peers provides feedback. Oral feedback. Not by beheading me, but talking to me.
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StopS
09-24-2012, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdullaah
I myself would just rather ban you from this forum than argue with you stops, but these moderators and other forumers are more generous it seems with their answers, time, patience to debate with you and answer you in a generally polite and patiently educative manner. As for me, having read your posts in this thread I believe your speech should be banned because you are here to argue it seems not learn or reason.
Why does it seem to me that I don't argue, but avoid and ignore people who do?

I read what people here write and I learn what they think by looking at their opinions. Yes, if I see something wrong or gravely out of shape I can't help and provide my view. That's what people do on forums.

You want to ban me and yet don't provide a reason why you would rather ban me. I provide factual, yet polite feedback. Not everybody here does this. Would you ban them too?
Would you ban everyone who has a different opinion than you?
Do you appreciate free speech and are you in favour of free speech?
Or are you like some Christians, who say: yes, free speech is ok, but not on 25th of December when it comes to XMas? :)

Another thing: I value free speech and I am a happy person who likes to have fun, so I don't always take myself seriously. Maybe it's a bad combination but it usually works. So why not lighten up and talk with a smile instead of a frown?
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جوري
09-24-2012, 06:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
I don't know about you, but I can go and stand on a box or a ladder and say pretty much anything I want. Nobody but my peers provides feedback. Oral feedback. Not by beheading me, but talking to me.
We challenge you to let go of your safety ladder and go ''say pretty much anything you want'' to Obama and survive his secret service. Until such a time I don't think anyone is interested in psycho-babble.. Everyone spews psychobabble indeed (and that amongst other forum rules you break are enough incentive for you to be banned).. at any rate put your money where your mouth is and make it count!

best,
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Aprender
09-24-2012, 10:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Can someone like Plato?
Plato is not here. He died in 347 B.C. in Athens.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
I don't know about you, but I can go and stand on a box or a ladder and say pretty much anything I want. Nobody but my peers provides feedback. Oral feedback. Not by beheading me, but talking to me.
Yeah. Most of us can do that too right now without being beheaded.
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Hulk
09-24-2012, 11:26 PM
It seems to me that the idea of freedom of speech has been abused like when a parent gives a son some money and say "buy whatever you want and have a good time", and the son goes and buys drugs because the parent said "anything".

It's clear that what is lost is adab. Something those of the past had and understood without having to actually say it out or put in writing. When you are at someone's house and the host tells you to "make yourself at home", it doesn't mean you can do whatever you want it just means he wants you to be comfortable within proper limits as a guest.

With freedom of speech, is it not meant for people to be able to have proper discourse? To seek truth, knowledge, etc. To say that what is offensive in one place might not be offensive in another. That is true for many things, like certain table etiquettes or hand gestures but these things are not the same as mocking or insulting, especially in the verbal/physical sense.

Only idiots would actually think that it is impossible to figure out what could/would be transgressing "free speech".
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Ramadhan
09-25-2012, 12:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Actually, no. I have had posts edited and deleted at whim. I am polite and try to be honest and correct. Yes, I makje mistakes, but I learn from them.
every good forum has their own rules. And yes, even atheist/democracy/western/etc forums all have rules. And if you break them, there are consequences.

Also, I am not sure if you try to be honest and correct. You made one little post and there were so many incorrect opinions in there.
Unless you were that ignorant.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Ooops, I forgot to specify: "free country". Yes, that was my mistake.
Right.
So it is "un-free countries" that shut down twitter/facebook/google/youtube, and not because they are "muslim majority countries'.
I really hope for your own sake that you know the distinction.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Well, if you would ask instead of displaying an arrogant stance
This comes from someone who come here and wrote a sentence painting lies and brushing off all muslim countries as the same?
If you don't like people correcting your mistakes, then next time be careful about what you are going to write.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
And denying the holocaust or any genocide is way above the limit.
and insulting muslims, painting lies against Islam and muslims is not way above the limit?
sounds more like "selective freedom of speech" to me.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
It has nothing to do with censorship. Deleting one of posts because "There are a number of things which aren't correct in the post." is not exactly informative and useful to learn something.
You made one little post and I have corrected your mistakes. I hope you learnt something.
BUT, judging by the way you have written so far, I am sure "learning something" is the furthest thing from your mind.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
But it is true, it looks as though people here are too aggressive for me to learn anything. But I suppose I will be told it is all my fault because that's what people do: look for faults in others.
When people corrected you, you proclaimed they were aggressive for you to learn anything, but you are asking for exemption to say anything you like to say?
Nice try for putting guilt on others. But thankfully, we are not 5-year olds here (although we dealt with 5 year olds time to time).
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Ramadhan
09-25-2012, 12:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
I don't know about you, but I can go and stand on a box or a ladder and say pretty much anything I want. Nobody but my peers provides feedback. Oral feedback. Not by beheading me, but talking to me.
I don't know where you live, but most certainly not in the USA.

In USA ("the land of the brave and the free"), countless people have been jailed (without trial) and tortured just because they have different ideas than their government.

And most certainly not in Germany either where denying holocaust lands you in jail, and which have provided facilities for other foreign governments to conduct torture for those being held without trial.
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StopS
09-25-2012, 07:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

every good forum has their own rules. And yes, even atheist/democracy/western/etc forums all have rules. And if you break them, there are consequences.

Also, I am not sure if you try to be honest and correct. You made one little post and there were so many incorrect opinions in there.
Unless you were that ignorant.
I did not see a rule anywhere: do not criticise wrong information.

What exactly is an incorrect opinion? Do YOU decide what is the correct opinion for me?

And again: are you sure you know what ignorant means?

Right.
So it is "un-free countries" that shut down twitter/facebook/google/youtube, and not because they are "muslim majority countries'.
I really hope for your own sake that you know the distinction.
Is Pakistan shutting down and blocking YouTube in any way comparable to YouTube deleting videos inciting genocide? You seem to have strange standards.

This comes from someone who come here and wrote a sentence painting lies and brushing off all muslim countries as the same?
If you don't like people correcting your mistakes, then next time be careful about what you are going to write.
Accusations, claims and insults. Is that all you can come up with? Very poor!

and insulting muslims, painting lies against Islam and muslims is not way above the limit?
sounds more like "selective freedom of speech" to me.
Well, I have already questioned your ability of accurate judgement.

You made one little post and I have corrected your mistakes. I hope you learnt something.
BUT, judging by the way you have written so far, I am sure "learning something" is the furthest thing from your mind.
I hate to burst your bubble, but as far as I recall you corrected no mistake. You just gleefully pointed out a mistake I made. I then corrected it. What you mean - but did not apply - is constructive criticism.
Yes, you have the ability to be sure of my personality and character from just "one little post".

When people corrected you, you proclaimed they were aggressive for you to learn anything, but you are asking for exemption to say anything you like to say?
Nice try for putting guilt on others. But thankfully, we are not 5-year olds here (although we dealt with 5 year olds time to time).
Do you have a problem understanding what I am writing? So far you have managed to misrepresent and pass unwarranted, judgemental comments and make condescending remarks.
Look at the following: here's what I said: it looks as though people here are too aggressive for me to learn anything

"It looks as though" is not the same as "proclaiming", I think you will agree with me here.

The same goes for the sentence: "When people corrected you"
Who corrected me? Who showed me what was wrong and what the correct information would be?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, some people really basic communication skills and are incredibly quick to condemn others instead of following the Koran and establishing a path of communication without threats and insults.

Now, is it possible to stop all this bickering and name-calling and focus on factual arguments regarding free speech?
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dusk
09-25-2012, 10:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
Only idiots would actually think that it is impossible to figure out what could/would be transgressing "free speech".
In specific cases maybe. In a general law it opens doors. It can be misused and probably will sooner or later. History has proven time and again.
It should also be possible to vote for one dictator every few years. Totalitarianism is way more efficient than a democracy. Yet it would be so easy for dictator to abuse his powers once in power and no matter what he said during election. So we separate legislative power from execution and justice.
The risks outweigh the benefits.

It can be condemned by the population but not every cultural agreement needs to be put into a law. There is no law for shaking hands. There is no law for how often you are allowed to forget your marriage anniversary. There is no law for treating or mistreating a girlfriend unless there is physical harm.
All these things are taken care of by people via giving the silent treatment, ignoring, exclusion from events or groups, being less helpful, ...
There are many such things in social environments.
Reply

Ramadhan
09-25-2012, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
I did not see a rule anywhere: do not criticise wrong information.
You did not see the forums's rules after 5 months being here? You don't say.
Either you are lying or you are very ignorant.

Here's the rules: http://www.islamicboard.com/faq.php?..._liforum_rules

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
What exactly is an incorrect opinion? Do YOU decide what is the correct opinion for me?
Every adult being knows that incorrect opinions are opinions that are not based on the fact.
For example: "Germany is a country in Africa".

Can I ask you how old are you?

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Is Pakistan shutting down and blocking YouTube in any way comparable to YouTube deleting videos inciting genocide? You seem to have strange standards
Pakistan may have blocked access to Youtube. So? What is your point?
Many countries have blocked access to youtube, not just muslim majority countries.
You seem to have double standards.

Youtube deleting videos inciting genocide?
You equate denying holocaust to "inciting genocide"? Your government certainly have successfully brainwashed germany's citizens to the point that having different opinion about holocaust is now equal to "inciting genocide"
do you even know what "inciting genocide" means?

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Accusations, claims and insults. Is that all you can come up with? Very poor!
You need a mirror.
You come here accusing and claiming that only muslim countries blocked access to youtube/facebook/etc, and when we refuted you, you are now claiming that we are insulting you.
You have done very poor job in trying to put the guilt on us. Again, we are not 5 year-olds, but we deal with 5 year-olds time to time.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Well, I have already questioned your ability of accurate judgement.
I feel proud that someone who claimed that "only muslim countries blocked access to youtube/facebook" is now questioning my judgement.

next.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
I hate to burst your bubble, but as far as I recall you corrected no mistake. You just gleefully pointed out a mistake I made. I then corrected it. What you mean - but did not apply - is constructive criticism.
I did correct your mistake by refuting your argument.
"constructive criticism"? This is coming from someone who come here and claiming only muslim countries blocked access to youtube etc?
nice try, kiddo.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Look at the following: here's what I said: it looks as though people here are too aggressive for me to learn anything
If you don't like people here refuting your claims and arguments, no one is holding you hostage.

format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Now, is it possible to stop all this bickering and name-calling and focus on factual arguments regarding free speech?
Why don't you start?
So far, you have claimed falsely against muslim countries and you have provided no facts to your arguments.

By the way, I have refuted your claim that you can pretty much have any opinion in Germany without dire consequences from your own government.
Reply

StopS
10-07-2012, 10:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

You did not see the forums's rules after 5 months being here? You don't say.
Either you are lying or you are very ignorant.

Here's the rules: http://www.islamicboard.com/faq.php?..._liforum_rules
You seem to be the expert: show me the rule which says: do not criticise wrong information.

Every adult being knows that incorrect opinions are opinions that are not based on the fact.
You are incapable of distinguishing fact from opinion. If you don't understand something, just ask and I will be happy to explain it to you.

You come here accusing and claiming that only muslim countries blocked access to youtube/facebook/etc, and when we refuted you, you are now claiming that we are insulting you.
You have done very poor job in trying to put the guilt on us. Again, we are not 5 year-olds, but we deal with 5 year-olds time to time.
I admitted that I have made a mistake. I forgot one word. It was my mistake. My error. Mea culpa.

Can you provide a list of countries where internet access is partially blocked?

I have not been to North Korea, but the ones I have been to and which are blocking internet access partially are: China, Afghanistan, UAE, KSA, Qatar, Iran, Pakistan, Oman. Notice a pattern?

I did correct your mistake by refuting your argument.
"constructive criticism"? This is coming from someone who come here and claiming only muslim countries blocked access to youtube etc?

So far, you have claimed falsely against muslim countries and you have provided no facts to your arguments.

By the way, I have refuted your claim that you can pretty much have any opinion in Germany without dire consequences from your own government.
You made a claim, without any evidence. I said "pretty much" for a reason.
I am really getting tired of all this nonsensical chest-thumping.

Ok, yes, you are a hero and the best! I am totally wrong and no matter what I say will convince anyone anyway.
No level of rational thinking or reasoning will change anyone's mind here. I don't even remember whether it was this forum which has worn me out and I already said: I give up!
Reply

joesixpack
10-08-2012, 12:27 AM
I think the concept of free speech is rather confusing to most people, especially those in the west. Take the United States. The Constitution guarantees the right to free speech and a free press. The reason for this was not the preposterous notion that we should all have the right to hurl insults at one another, it was a guarantee of the power to hold accountable the government by the governed. The right of free speech is there for the sole purpose of granting the people the right to criticize the government and to question the governments actions in public in a way that could influence the electorate.

So, in light of this, we must ask ourselves what is more important, the right to call your Muslim neighbor a savage, or the right of Bradly Manning or Mordechai Vanunu to speak to the press and make public the actions of their own governments? I would say that the second example was more important, yet those two men are currently either in jail or under house arrest, and where are the cheerleaders for Free Speech? They're busy trying to extol the virtues of free speech only in the case of deliberate insults to religious organizations. What sort of freedom is this? I am free to step on my coworkers toes, but I'm not free to talk about workplace safety or organize a union? I am free to call my neighbor an ass, bit we are not free to stop the police from ransacking our homes in search of subversive literature? In light of the severe government crackdowns on people like Julian Assange, why do you think it such a restriction on your free speech to be asked not to insult someone?

Why has the debate about free speech devolved to the pitting of citizen against citizen? If you wish to discuss the issue of free speech, then ask if we are free to criticize the Saudi Royal family and their management of the oil wealth of their nation, ask if we are allowed to question the fairness of the elections in Yemen, or the financial transparency of the US backed governments of Iraq and Afghanistan. Or ask why Obama has killed so many people with drone attacks, or why the US doesn't push Israel harder to comply with the UN resolutions. Those are the issues that free speech is made for. Yes, totalitarian rulers, despots and dictators will try to put a stop to it, but it's an ideal worth fighting for. The right to insult someone's religious belief isn't something you should hang your flag on. Why would you?
Reply

جوري
10-08-2012, 01:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by joesixpack
I think the concept of free speech is rather confusing to most people
Indeed:

The writer, producer and distributor of the film, Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, is an Egyptian-born Coptic Christian based in the U.S. who originally identified himself as an Israeli-Jew, using the pseudonym "Sam Bacile," and said that he collected $5 million from Jewish friends to fund the movie. The alleged Bacile told the Wall Street Journal that he made ​​the film to expose "Islam as a hateful religion" and also described Islam as a "cancer." It is quite clear that not just Nakoula deliberately intended to stoke up hate against Muslims but by Identifying himself as an Israeli Jew, was Determined to exploit existing divisions between Muslims and Jews.
On 16 October 1946, Julius Streicher was Hanged by an International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg after being convicted for crimes against humanity. Streicher was not a member of the Nazi military and did not take part in the planning of the Holocaust or the invasion of any country. He was the publisher of a tabloid newspaper, Der Stürmer, which for 22 years denounced Jews in the most crude, vicious, and vivid ways. Despite its Increasing popularity, the newspaper was even condemned by many Nazi leaders at the time and Streicher was brought before the German courts on several occasions.

Despite Der Stürmer not being an official arm of the Nazi government, Streicher's pivotal role in inciting Loathing and Hatred of Jews was significant enough to include Considered Major War Criminals before him in the indictment of the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg. In essence, the prosecutors took the line that Streicher's incendiary speeches and articles made ​​him an accessory to murder, and therefor as Culpable as those who actually ordered the mass extermination of the Jews.

The world said, "Never Again." Never Again to genocide, Never Again, to ethnic cleansing, concentration camps to Never Again, Never Again to the systematic demonization of the "other" which inevitably led to the atrocities of the Holocaust. Yet, almost 90 years after it was first published Der Stürmer, the world Appears to be suffering from a bout of collective amnesia. In recent years, the rising tide of anti-Muslim hysteria has drowned out all voices of reason and reminders from history. Camouflaged in the rhetoric of the anti-terror, counter-extremism, and freedom of speech, the rank Hatred and Loathing of Muslims and Islam has become the acceptable face of racism today, as exemplified by the recent condemnations of the demonstrations in the Muslim world against the virulently inflammatory and Islamophobic film, The Innocence of Muslims.

The film, produced by an Egyptian Coptic Christian Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, Islamophobic and is graphically portrays the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a fool, a philanderer, a womanizer, a homosexual, a child abuser and a religious fake (nastaghfir-allah). His followers are portrayed in the film as savage killers hungry for wealth and bent on killing women and children. The film draughty in mass demonstrations throughout the Muslim world and attacks on diplomatic missions in several countries resulting in several deaths. Reminiscent of the Rushdie fatwa over two decades ago, a Pakistani minister placed a $ 100,000 bounty on Nakoula's head, going as far as to publicly request assistance from the Taliban and al-Qaeda to kill him.

Critics of the demonstrations present themselves as the proponents of absolute free speech and argue that Muslims should not be offended by criticism of their religion. One of their more crass arguments is that the production is so shoddy and substandard Themselves above that Muslims should carry it. This belittles the actual sentiment behind the Insults which should be judged according the to their content and the intention of the offender and not the insult may or may not be articulate how. In fact, from its first issue, Der Stürmer was also directed to that common denominator Made Easy Hitler thought that the proper target of propaganda. Heinz Preiss, a young scholar who attached himself to Streicher after 1933, becoming his court historian, accurately described Streicher's intent,

Since he wanted to capture the masses, he had to write in a way that the masses could understand, in a style that was simple and easy to comprehend. He had recognized that the way to achieve the greatest effect on an audience was through simple sentences. Writing had to adopt the style of speaking if it were to have a similar effect. Streicher wrote in the Stürmer ... The worker who talked the way he came home late at night from the factory was neither willing nor able to read intellectual treatises. He was, however, willing to read What interested him and what he could not understand. Streicher therefor took the content from the daily life and the style from the speech. He gave plenty of sunshine the Stürmer its style, a style which many intellectuals could not understand, but which was nothing but the product of his own Fundamentally Gained experience over the years.

As with the demonization of Muslims today, Streicher Regularly published cartoons and stories about Jewish involvement in cases of alleged sexual criminality, murder and intolerance endlessly repeated with the same allegations. Innocence of Muslims must be seen in this context - What has become the latest in a regular and routine in the media attack on Muslims, Islam and the Prophet of Islam (pbuh), designed not to stimulate intellectual debate and understanding but simply to Incite Hatred against the followers of Islam. From Rushdie's Satanic Verses, to the Danish cartoons to the anti-Muslim Qur'an burnings and the daily sensationalist headlines and op-eds, the freedom being sought is not one to criticize or to express oneself but one to insult and abuse.

The writer, producer and distributor of the film, Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, is an Egyptian-born Coptic Christian based in the U.S. who originally identified himself as an Israeli-Jew, using the pseudonym "Sam Bacile," and said that he collected $5 million from Jewish friends to fund the movie. The alleged Bacile told the Wall Street Journal that he made ​​the film to expose "Islam as a hateful religion" and also described Islam as a "cancer." It is quite clear that not just Nakoula deliberately intended to stoke up hate against Muslims but by Identifying himself as an Israeli Jew, was Determined to exploit existing divisions between Muslims and Jews.

It is not Muslim "intolerance" that the world should be condemning today but Western tolerance of those who only seek to abuse, insult and demonise and thereby foster the climate which facilitates genocide. The reaction from the Muslim world is a reasonable and understandable one. In Retrospect, nobody would dare criticize rioted against the Jewish communities in the 1930s publications such as Der Stürmer if they had the ultimate effect was that it would have prevented the Holocaust, even if those riots led to the loss of scores of innocent lives. The current reaction stems from a lack of confidence in the leadership of the Muslim world against such abuse to take any meaningful action, leaving it to the mob to seek vigilante justice in whatever form it can. In the West, the Authorities and the courts will protect what they hold to be sacred from abuse through similar injunctions and prosecutions and so the public anger and feeling is appeased.

A few examples will suffice. In the same week as the Muslims have been condemned for not tolerating free speech, Azhar Ahmed, a Muslim teenager in Britain was convicted of sending a "grossly offensive communication" after posting a message on his Facebook page that "all soldiers should die and go to hell. "He Sentencing awaits you for the comments which the judge described as" derogatory, disrespectful and inflammatory. "Meanwhile in France, a French court banned from re-publishing or distributing photographs Closer magazine in France of the Duchess of Cambridge, Princess Kate, topless sunbathing. The injunction was granted at the same time that another French magazine Charlie Hebdo published a new series of cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for no other reason than to insult and offend Muslims.

When Muslims complained, they were told that freedom of expression was a fundamental right. In September 2011, the British fashion designer John Galliano was convicted for making "public Insults based on origin, religious affiliation, race or ethnicity" after making anti-Semitic comments in public. On the same note, Holocaust denial remains a crime in several European countries. In September 2010, the Advertising Standards Agency in the UK ice cream company banned from using an advert displaying a pregnant moment's eating ice cream in a church, together with the strap line "immaculately conceived." The ASA said that the advert "was not likely to be seen as a distortion and mockery of the beliefs of Roman Catholics "and" not likely to cause serious offense to readers, particularly those who practiced the Roman Catholic faith. "The ASA banned another advert for the same company (Antonio Federici) in July 2009 Showed that a priest and a nun appearing as if they were about to kiss.

The War on Terror has seen several Muslims in the UK and U.S., such as the Ahmed Faraz and Tarek Mehanna, sentenced to lengthy spells in the maximum Security Prisons for no greater offences than publishing books and articles critical of Western foreign policy and promoting the political and military aspects of Islam. No freedom of expression for these young Muslims.

In contrast, there is no such procedure in the Muslim world or to protect the sensitivities of Muslims in the Western world, thereby leading to the type of angry demonstrations that we are witnessing. One can predict that were no systems in place to address public anger in the West about the public holds Insults to sacred things, there would be similar large scale demonstrations, and These would not be limited to elements of the far right. Muslims are denied such protection. They are insulted and abused, mocked and ridiculed, ostracized and told to get over it and demonised. Until such time as the Governments of the world are prepared to offer similar protection to Muslims as it does to others, they should not expect such angry reaction from the masses. "Never Again" should not be hollow rhetoric but state policy, and for all communities.
Reply

سيف الله
10-09-2012, 08:24 PM
Salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by joesixpack
I think the concept of free speech is rather confusing to most people, especially those in the west. Take the United States. The Constitution guarantees the right to free speech and a free press. The reason for this was not the preposterous notion that we should all have the right to hurl insults at one another, it was a guarantee of the power to hold accountable the government by the governed. The right of free speech is there for the sole purpose of granting the people the right to criticize the government and to question the governments actions in public in a way that could influence the electorate.

So, in light of this, we must ask ourselves what is more important, the right to call your Muslim neighbor a savage, or the right of Bradly Manning or Mordechai Vanunu to speak to the press and make public the actions of their own governments? I would say that the second example was more important, yet those two men are currently either in jail or under house arrest, and where are the cheerleaders for Free Speech? They're busy trying to extol the virtues of free speech only in the case of deliberate insults to religious organizations. What sort of freedom is this? I am free to step on my coworkers toes, but I'm not free to talk about workplace safety or organize a union? I am free to call my neighbor an ass, bit we are not free to stop the police from ransacking our homes in search of subversive literature? In light of the severe government crackdowns on people like Julian Assange, why do you think it such a restriction on your free speech to be asked not to insult someone?

Why has the debate about free speech devolved to the pitting of citizen against citizen? If you wish to discuss the issue of free speech, then ask if we are free to criticize the Saudi Royal family and their management of the oil wealth of their nation, ask if we are allowed to question the fairness of the elections in Yemen, or the financial transparency of the US backed governments of Iraq and Afghanistan. Or ask why Obama has killed so many people with drone attacks, or why the US doesn't push Israel harder to comply with the UN resolutions. Those are the issues that free speech is made for. Yes, totalitarian rulers, despots and dictators will try to put a stop to it, but it's an ideal worth fighting for. The right to insult someone's religious belief isn't something you should hang your flag on. Why would you?
Sane people do exist

Well said.
Reply

GuestFellow
10-09-2012, 08:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sweetshot
Hello

I am just wanting to know if free speech exists in Islam? I think No because of the stories I hear in the media about muslims wanting to censor certain things that they find offensive.

If it doesn't exist then how can people in Islam ever discuss and debate new ideas and move on if they can't say whatever they want whenever they want?

Cheers.
There is freedom of speech but there are restrictions.
Reply

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