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attica
10-12-2012, 12:17 PM
I notice a lot of criticisms made against Mohammed's character as a way of suggesting that a bad man such as him could not have been a prophet of God. In response to these criticisms, Muslims obviously defend Mohammed's character, saying that he was not a bad man as the critics suggest. However, what I don't understand is: does it matter what his character was, for Muslims. What I mean is that a number of the prophets in the Old Testament had faults and failings but this did not debar them from being considered as prophets because God had chosen them to be so in spite of their faults. Do Muslims consider Mohammed to have been perfect, so to speak, or merely a good man (with perhaps certain faults, just like many other prophets had) who was chosen by God, for reasons best known to himself, to be a prophet.
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جوري
10-12-2012, 12:26 PM
per Christians prophets can sleep with their daughters and beget children from them or marry their sisters or become gods when they are men! these are lies against God and his messengers akin to the lies they still perpetuate!
We fight back because it is libel and slander and defamation of character not because it is the truth and it is OK to be flawed. Sure you can be flawed but do we also have to accept vicious lies to appease you or they who perpetuate it?

best,
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glo
10-12-2012, 12:50 PM
I think attica raises a good point.

The topic of how the prophets are viewed differently in Islam and Christianity came up recently: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1543187

From it I understand that Muslims see their prophets differently - not PERFECT, but exemplary human beings (and certainly not with major moral flaws (adultery, murder, incest etc) as some of the prophets had according to the Bible).


But I also know that Muslims hold Muhammad (peace be upon him) in particularly high esteem.
So I would like to repeat attica's in his question if Muslims consider Muhammad to have been perfect or near perfect or a good man chosen by God?
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جوري
10-12-2012, 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by glo
But I also know that Muslims hold Muhammad (peace be upon him) in particularly high esteem.
So I would like to repeat attica's in his question if Muslims consider Muhammad to have been perfect or near perfect or a good man chosen by God?
That was pretty much answered in my previous post.. Did you not get this part?

Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
these are lies against God and his messengers
Making a human error is different than committing major sins especially for instance when God is sending a man to preach against lewd sins of the flesh only to find that same man committing lewd sins of the flesh!
I don't know what sort of elaboration you're seeking otherwise to something that has been addressed repeatedly and refuted numerous times on this very board!

best,
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glo
10-12-2012, 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
That was pretty much answered in my previous post.. Did you not get this part?
I'm afraid not, sis.
I cannot see your previous post answering the question with regards to how Muslims view Muhammad at all ...

Can you try again? Do you consider Muhammad to have been a) perfect or b) near perfect or c) a good man chosen by God?

Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
Making a human error is different than committing major sins especially for instance when God is sending a man to preach against lewd sins of the flesh only to find that same man committing lewd sins of the flesh!
I don't know what sort of elaboration you're seeking otherwise to something that has been addressed repeatedly and refuted numerous times on this very board!
I totally agree. Making a minor mistake is different to committing incest and murdering your lover's husband. That's were the Bible and the Qu'ran paint a different picture of the prophets.

I posted a link to the other thread for attica's information, since he had asked the question and I wanted to point him to previous discussions. If the mods feel that was unnecessary, I am happy to have my post deleted or amended accordingly.

I am not seeking any further elaboration on the prophets. I think I understand the differences in Islam and Christianity quite well.

Still interested in understanding if and how Muhammad is viewed differently from the other prophets in the Qu'ran though. (See question above)

Salaam
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جوري
10-12-2012, 01:07 PM
It is A&C for your first Q. It's really not very difficult to understand but if it helps!


best,
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جوري
10-12-2012, 01:10 PM
How many times have you read the Quran glo?
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glo
10-12-2012, 01:17 PM
^
Once, but not very thoroughly.
It's my intention to read it again sometime.

Admittedly, much of my knowledge about the Qu'ran comes from Muslims I speak to - mostly in this forum.
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جوري
10-12-2012, 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by glo
^
Once, but not very thoroughly.
It's my intention to read it again sometime.

Admittedly, much of my knowledge about the Qu'ran comes from Muslims I speak to - mostly in this forum.
Ok well that explains your previous thread on 'Mohameddan practices' and this one..
let me answer you directly from the noble Quran:

68:4 to top

68 4 1 -
Sahih International
And indeed, you are of a great moral character.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-12-2012, 01:30 PM
yes character does influence prophethood.

thats why when a person reaches the state where he has good dreams through being a truthful and honest slave of God it is as though he has obtained 1/46th of prophethood.

If being truthful enough to have true dreams is 1/46th then what about a real prophet?

he has 45th parts of nobel characters and qualities which make him over and above every false alegation hurled towards him.


All the prophets of God are pure innocent souls guided by a divine source.

How can such a guided soul be flawed... the mind baffles at the very thought of it
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hur575
10-12-2012, 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by attica
Do Muslims consider Mohammed to have been perfect, so to speak, or merely a good man (with perhaps certain faults, just like many other prophets had) who was chosen by God, for reasons best known to himself, to be a prophet.
We do not believe what the bible claim against our beloved messengers peace be upon the all, below a topic of some of the claims against the messengers and there is more and worse. How do people believe that GOD will chose the worse of people to convey the message ??


[/QUOTE]
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
The Qur’an does not say a prophet slept with his daughters. Genesis 19:30-38
2. The Qur’an does not say a prophet slept with his neighbour’s wife and plotted to kill him. 2 Samuel 11:1-2
3. The Qur’an does not say a prophet worshipped the Golden Calf. Exodus 32:1-6
In fact we believe all messengers were without faults, and we must believe, love, and respect all of them otherwise we are not Muslims.

“We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers” Quran 2:285

bn Katheer said in his Tafseer of this aayah:


The believers believe in all the Prophets and Messengers, and the books revealed from heaven to the slaves of Allaah, the Messengers and Prophets; they do not differentiate between any of them, believing in some and rejecting others. Rather they regard all of them as truthful, righteous, rightly-guided and guiding to the path of goodness


With regard to the superiority of some of the Prophets over one another, Allaah has told us of this, when He said :“Those Messengers! We preferred some of them to others; to some of them Allaah spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour)”[al-Baqarah 2:253]

Allaah tells us that some of them are several degrees above others, hence the chosen ones among the Messengers are “those of strong will”. Allaah says:“And (remember) when We took from the Prophets their covenant, and from you (O Muhammad), and from Nooh (Noah), Ibraaheem (Abraham), Moosaa (Moses), and ‘Eesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary). We took from them a strong covenant”[al-Ahzaab 33:7]

*Muhammad peace upon him was the Seal of the Prophets and Messengers. Allaah says:“Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the last (end) of the Prophets” [al-Ahzaab 33:40]

* He is unique in that he was sent to all of mankind. Allaah “Blessed be He Who sent down the criterion (of right and wrong, i.e. this Qur’aan) to His slave (Muhammad) that he may be a warner to the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)” [al-Furqaan 25:1]

* He will be the owner of the “position of praise and glory (al-maqaam al-mahmood)” on the Day of Resurrection. Allaah says:“And in some parts of the night (also) offer the Salaah (prayer) with it (i.e. recite the Qur’aan in the prayer) as an additional prayer (Tahajjud optional prayer Nawaafil) for you (O Muhammad). It may be that your Lord will raise you to Maqaam Mahmood (a station of praise and glory, i.e., the honour of intercession on the Day of Resurrection)” [al-Israa’ 17:78]

in regards how to prove that Muhammad was a messenger of GOD, there are many proofs, and will write them later.


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Hulk
10-12-2012, 06:12 PM
Keep in mind that Prophets are men of God. They received revelations. Can one really believe that a person who is in such a high level of consciousness of God, can allow themselves be overcome by the lowly sins of the temporary world?
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glo
10-12-2012, 07:46 PM
Thanks for your replies.

I cannot speak for attica, but I feel that I am clear now in understanding that Muslims believe Muhammad and all the prophets (peace be upon them) to have been "of great moral character", "innocent souls" and "without fault" (I am quoting form the Qu'ran and from the posts above).

That sounds like being perfect to me.

Thanks again. :)
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Scimitar
10-12-2012, 07:59 PM
No man is/was perfect... if Adam could sin, then so can the rest of us. And that includes Jesus pbuh, Muhammad pbuh etc...

however, there is a difference in sin when we compare the sin of Prophets to those of regular folk.

For example, once, Muhammad pbuh, made a mistake in salaah, and the angel Gabriel had to teach him how to correct that mistake...

Now, there is a wisdom behind this. And that wisdom is - for future generations to know how to correct their salaah should they make a mistake in it. Without that example - without that sunnah - the generations of Muslims that followed would have no idea how to correct that mistake... see my point?

So - is this sin really a sin? or is it an intended mistake that Muhammad pbuh never knew was about to take place? because Allah had planned it all along? I think it is not a sin, and that there is a divine wisdom at work.

And we all know that Allah works in mysterious ways...

food for thought

Scimi
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glo
10-12-2012, 08:02 PM
Thanks, Scimi. I like a bit of food for thought. funnycreaturechewingsmileyemoticon 1 -
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Scimitar
10-12-2012, 08:06 PM
I'm so pleased I'm posting after you... for a second I thought bro Hulk was gonna reply to me, which would inevitably see my with a very bent and mis-shapen nose...

I can't even do my facepalms anymore. (anyone got a band aid?) ;D

Love ya bro Hulk, I was only kidding akhi :)
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Signor
10-13-2012, 05:16 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
No man is/was perfect... if Adam could sin, then so can the rest of us. And that includes Jesus pbuh, Muhammad pbuh etc...

however, there is a difference in sin when we compare the sin of Prophets to those of regular folk.

For example, once, Muhammad pbuh, made a mistake in salaah, and the angel Gabriel had to teach him how to correct that mistake...

Now, there is a wisdom behind this. And that wisdom is - for future generations to know how to correct their salaah should they make a mistake in it. Without that example - without that sunnah - the generations of Muslims that followed would have no idea how to correct that mistake... see my point?

So - is this sin really a sin? or is it an intended mistake that Muhammad pbuh never knew was about to take place? because Allah had planned it all along? I think it is not a sin, and that there is a divine wisdom at work.

And we all know that Allah works in mysterious ways...

food for thought

Scimi
Adding to this,We all consider every affliction,trial and tribulation on Muhammad(pbuh) is a blessing for his followers.If someone looks at his life besides the divine qualities what God has given to him(pbuh),you will see even before prophethood he was considered to be truthful and honest man among Arabs of Makkah.Its his message that keeps away the some tribes of Makkah not to accept Islam NOT his character.For more you can read exergesis of Quran and life of Muhammad(pbuh)....
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Darth Ultor
10-13-2012, 05:57 AM
I always read that Muhammad was very patient, very charitable, and very moral. Seems like good character traits here.
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Muslim Woman
10-13-2012, 10:15 AM
Salaam/ Peace


Originally Posted by attica
... Do Muslims consider Mohammed to have been perfect, .

Muslims believe all Prophets pbut were sinless . Sometimes they made mistakes but they did not commit major sins as Bible alleged . Whenever they made mistakes , they offered sincere repentance and God Almighty forgave them .

It's a part of our faith to respect All the Prophets pbut , not only Muhammed pbuh.
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attica
10-28-2012, 07:52 PM
Ok, so if I understand correctly, Muhammed is considered to be an exemplary character and, if he sinned at all, such sins were of a minor nature and may even have served to help his followers better understand the message Allah was transmitting through him.
As for the various Old Testament prophets, Muslims consider the major sins they committed (e.g. Noah sleeping with his daughters) to have been inventions and, in the Muslim accounts of these prophets, they were only subject to some minor sins, similar to Mohammed.
Have I got that right?
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Mustafa2012
10-28-2012, 09:16 PM
There's another verse in The Qur'an which speaks about the character of the Prophet Muhammad

Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much. (33:21)
The Prophet Muhammad was not perfect but he known as the best of creation. His good character was known amongst the arabs even before he was given prophethood. None of his enemies could fault his character. The problem they had was with the message he was given.

He has a status over all of the other Prophets in that although he was the final Prophet, he will be the first to enter Paradise. You can read about it here.

There is also a hadith which says that on the day of judgement people will go to the other Prophets seeking intercession but they will all refuse and finally the intercession will be carried out by Prophet Muhammad.

Prophet Muhammad did make some minor mistakes which are referred to in The Qur'aan. This was highlighted to show that although he was a Prophet and a Messenger, he was still human.

Another reason why scholars say that his minor mistakes were spoken about in The Qur'aan was to remind people that he was a human being and not to elevate his status to the level of someone that should be worshipped.
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Hulk
10-28-2012, 09:57 PM
Despite being vulnerable to minor mistakes, the Prophets(peace be upon them all) always repented..

Hadhrat Abu Hurayrah Radiyallahu ‘anhu has narrated that the Holy Prophet Sallallahu ‘alaihi wasallam said: By Allah verily I ask Allah for forgiveness and repent to Him more than seventy times a day.
(Bukhari)


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جوري
10-28-2012, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by attica
so if I understand correctly, Muhammed is considered to be an exemplary character
You understand correctly!

Originally Posted by attica
As for the various Old Testament prophets, Muslims consider the major sins they committed (e.g. Noah sleeping with his daughters) to have been inventions and, in the Muslim accounts of these prophets, they were only subject to some minor sins, similar to Mohammed.
One only needs to look at the bible to conclude that indeed the OT/NT are negligible, that's if you can get the Jews to recognize your NT all together but yes. The Quran and Sunnah are the criterion:


The Christian missionaries tend to make the general conclusion that the Qur’an cannot be a text of divine origin because of the unacceptable meanings included in it. Perhaps they are correct in this conclusion and we may be inclined to agree with them due to the following reasons, which are:
1. The Qur’an does not say a prophet slept with his daughters.1
2. The Qur’an does not say a prophet slept with his neighbour’s wife and plotted to kill him2
3. The Qur’an does not say a prophet worshipped the Golden Calf.3
4. The Qur’an does not say a prophet changed his religion, worshipped idols and built for them temples.4
5. The Qur’an does not say a prophet told lies and that God deceived and destroyed another prophet.5
6. The Qur’an does not say David, Solomon and Jesus were originally *******s from the seed of Pharez, son of Judah.6
7. The Qur’an does not say the firstborn of the Great Prophet who was the firstborn of God slept with his stepmother.7
8. The Qur’an does not say the second son of the same Great Prophet (firstborn of God) slept with his daughter-in-law.8
9. The Qur’an does not contain lurid details and explicit pornography involving men of Assyria and *****s from Egypt.9
10. The Qur’an does not say John the Baptist, who was the greatest Israelite Prophet ever according to Jesus — though the least in the kingdom of God was greater than him! — failed to recognize his second lord on earth, although this lord followed him and got baptized by him. At least not until he saw the third god descending on this second god as a pigeon.10

11. The Qur’an does not say the apostle of this god, Judas Iscariot, who performed many miracles in his name and was among the disciples who were greater than Moses and other Israelite Prophets according to Jesus, delivered his god to the hands of his enemies for 30 pieces.11
12. The Qur’an does not say Caiaphas, the high priest — who was a prophet according to John the Baptist — rejected, insulted and made a verdict to kill his god.12
For all the above reasons, we conclude that the Qur’an, unlike the Bible, cannot be a text of divine origin.



  • Genesis 19:30-38 [back]
  • 2 Samuel 11:1-27 [back]
  • Exodus 32:1-6 [back]
  • 1 Kings 11:1-13 [back]
  • 1 Kings 13:1-30 [back]
  • Genesis 38:12:30 [back]
  • Genesis 35:22 and 49:3-4 [back]
  • Genesis 38:12:30 [back]
  • Ezekiel 23 [back]
  • Matthew 3:13-17, Mark 1:9-11 and Luke 3:21-22 [back]
  • Matthew 26:14-16, 27:3-9, Mark 14:10-11, Luke 22:3-6 and John 18:1-5 [back]
  • Matthew 26:57:68, Mark 14:53-65, Luke 22:54-71 and John 18:12-24 [back]

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archi...divine-origin/



Originally Posted by attica
Have I got that right?
You got it right and now you have your own bible to mull over!

best,
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InToTheRain
10-28-2012, 10:59 PM
All Prophets are free from Sin, you cannot have clean water and pour into a dirty jug and expect clean water to come out. With Regards to Mohammad (Peace be Upon Him) He is Perfect. The Qur'an is Perfect and Mohammad is The Physical Embodiment of the Qur'an; He is the Beloved of God and closest to Him. The detail of His ascension can be found in Isra Wal Miraj, when Mohammad (peace be upon him) was made to lead all the Prophets in prayer at Masjid al Aqsa (Jeruselem) and He ascended the heavens and went beyond a point to meet God where even the Arch Angel Gabriel (peace be Upon Him) was not allowed to surpass as he mentioned he will get burnt.
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Aprender
10-29-2012, 01:02 AM
Originally Posted by Z.AL-Rashid
All Prophets are free from Sin, you cannot have clean water and pour into a dirty jug and expect clean water to come out. With Regards to Mohammad (Peace be Upon Him) He is Perfect. The Qur'an is Perfect and Mohammad is The Physical Embodiment of the Qur'an;
The more I visit this forum, the more I read posts from some of the Muslims here, the more Islam is starting to sound more and more like Christianity, my former religion. And that seems to stem from misunderstandings, which is extremely troubling. Especially for future generations of Muslims.

What you just wrote sounds a lot like this John 1:1 which Christians believe refers to Jesus (pbuh):
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Many Christian scholars interpret this as Jesus being the physical embodiment of the Bible (i.e. the word became flesh) in addition to being God as well.

Next, I don't think it's correct to say that the Prophets (peace be upon them) were perfect or to write that they were "sinless" and then write that they only committed minor sins. That's contradictory and also extremely confusing to new Muslims and the not-yet Muslims out there who are trying to learn about Islam. One who is perfect is entirely without flaws, defects or any type of shortcomings. From what we have learned in the Seerah and even from the hadith, we know that the Muhammad(peace be upon him) repented for even the minor sins that he might have done as brother Hulk shared in the hadith above.

What was created that is sinless to my understanding are the angels that Allah(swt) created.

Originally Posted by Z.AL-Rashid
He is the Beloved of God and closest to Him.
While I don't disagree with this, it reminds me of this statement here from Christianity about Jesus (pbuh) sitting on the right hand of God on the throne after his ascension to heaven in Hebrews 12:2 :
"fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. "

I think for future posts about things like this it we need to be wise about the words that we use to describe these things. As a new Muslim, when I took my shahada the only thing I feel comfortable as labeling perfct is Allah (swt). And Muhammad (peace be upon him) is His messenger.
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Hulk
10-29-2012, 08:33 AM
I don't really have a problem with what the bro said as the Prophets (pbut) were perfect as far as human perfection goes. :) Mistakes are part of being human and the ability to repent is also the wonderful thing about being human, and one who repents is like one who is without sin. These are things we've been taught to strive for.. taqwa and ihsan.

Our Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is also the "physical embodiment" of the Quran(though I'm not used to that term) as the Quran was sent to him and he did not merely play the role of "repeating" the message but rather he also taught/explained it's meaning.

Our Prophet (pbuh) is also the Imam of the Prophets, the seal of the prophets. When Prophet Isa/Jesus(pbuh) returns he will be a part of the Prophet's(pbuh) ummah. There is a hadith which mentions that an Imam(Could be Mahdi?) will offer Jesus(pbuh) to lead the prayer and Jesus(pbuh) will decline. I'm sure the muslim bros have been in situations where they're about to pray together and they'll usually invite each other to lead the prayer. When Jesus(pbuh) was around he Prophesied our Prophet's(pbuh) coming and that in order for our Prophet(pbuh) to come he(Jesus) had to go. I think it's really beautiful to reflect on. We don't realise just how blessed we are to be part of this ummah.

And lastly as much as we praise our beloved Prophet (pbuh), we still recognise that he is not God but rather a servant/slave of Allah.

"Ashhadu an la ilaha ill Allahu wa ashhadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluh"
"I bear witness that there is no deity but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Servant and Apostle."
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InToTheRain
10-29-2012, 11:44 PM
Assalamualaikum;

Originally Posted by Aprender
The more I visit this forum, the more I read posts from some of the Muslims here, the more Islam is starting to sound more and more like Christianity, my former religion. And that seems to stem from misunderstandings, which is extremely troubling. Especially for future generations of Muslims.

What you just wrote sounds a lot like this John 1:1 which Christians believe refers to Jesus (pbuh):
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Many Christian scholars interpret this as Jesus being the physical embodiment of the Bible (i.e. the word became flesh) in addition to being God as well.
It was actually Aisha(RA) who said Mohammad(Peace Be Upon Him) is the walking talking living Qur'an and she was a scholar.

Originally Posted by Aprender
Next, I don't think it's correct to say that the Prophets (peace be upon them) were perfect or to write that they were "sinless" and then write that they only committed minor sins. That's contradictory and also extremely confusing to new Muslims and the not-yet Muslims out there who are trying to learn about Islam. One who is perfect is entirely without flaws, defects or any type of shortcomings.
I think your misunderstanding stems from your concept of Sin; Which is a contravention of the Divine Command. As for the 'errors' mentioned from the Prophets, none of them entailed deliberate contravention of the Divine Command. Rather, each and every case was an example of the given Prophet acting based on very sound human judgment, sincerely seeking to do what was best in the given situation.

Originally Posted by Aprender
From what we have learned in the Seerah and even from the hadith, we know that the Muhammad(peace be upon him) repented for even the minor sins that he might have done as brother Hulk shared in the hadith above.
I too have read the Seerah and I cannot recollect any Minor sins commited by Mohammad (Peace be Upon Him); sorry but I will need examples.

Originally Posted by Aprender
What was created that is sinless to my understanding are the angels that Allah(swt) created.
Angels have no power to disobey God; they were created to Obey. Prophets have the power to Disobey but they choose not to. Both Angels and Prophets are sinless.

Originally Posted by Aprender
While I don't disagree with this, it reminds me of this statement here from Christianity about Jesus (pbuh) sitting on the right hand of God on the throne after his ascension to heaven in Hebrews 12:2 :
"fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. "

I think for future posts about things like this it we need to be wise about the words that we use to describe these things.

As a new Muslim, when I took my shahada the only thing I feel comfortable as labeling perfct is Allah (swt). And Muhammad (peace be upon him) is His messenger.
Your concerns would have some basis had there been a single Muslim who ascribed divinity to the Mohammad(SAW) since the Dawn of Islam 1433 or so years ago.

Allah Subhanu Hu wa Ta'ala Himself praises His beloved(Peace be Upon Him) and commands us to do so; these are just some of Many:

“Verily Allah and his angels sent salutations to the Prophet . O you who believe, send salutations and greetings to the Prophet .” (33.56)
"And surely you are of an exalted character".(Quran 68:4)
"And We have sent you not but as a mercy for the worlds." (21:107)

Mohammad(peace be Upon Him) is perfect, there is no creation better then Him. Allah Is The Greatest and is also perfect. However they are both in completely different categories. One is the Creator and the other is the Created; does it make it easier to understand if I said "Mohammad is the the perfect Creation and Allah is the Perfect Creator"?

Just a test, when I say Allah is the Last and I say Mohammad is the Last; in each case what do you think I am referring to?

Is my position in this clear or have I added more confusion? lol, just keep asking and we will get to the bottom of the misunderstanding...Insha'Allah

Wa Salam

The Most Merciful has chosen Mohammad; Where previously saying "La Ilaha Illalah" was enough, now must have the addition of "Mohammad Rasool Allah". He has made it incumbent on us to praise him during our Salah and raised him above the Sidratul Muntaha; where he was given the Highest position and the rights to intercession. May the Eternal Peace and Blessing of Allah be upon the rider of the Buraq.
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Aprender
10-30-2012, 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by Z.AL-Rashid
Is my position in this clear or have I added more confusion? lol, just keep asking and we will get to the bottom of the misunderstanding...Insha'Allah

Wa Salam
There is no misunderstanding on my part. I am simply pointing out that we need to be very careful with word choice when describing something like this. I'm fine with exalted and exceptional character but saying perfect, without adding perfect in creation is going to confuse many people. The reason why is because there are many people who come to Islam from Christianity. The terms that you use above without explanation can lead them to have incorrect conclusions about what Muslims believe about Muhammad (peace be upon him) and some of them may wonder how it's any different from Christianity.

Brother Hulk did a wonderful job clarifying I just brought up some uneasiness I had with the lack of explanation with the word association used above because it is not much different than what is taught in churches.

:wa:
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Perseveranze
10-30-2012, 01:53 AM
السلام عليكم

... Read this;


Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly: the use of the word “sin” in the question is a grave mistake, because sin (khatee’ah, pl. khataayaa) is impossible in the case of the Messengers. It is more correct to say mistakes, because a mistake may be made unintentionally, which is not the case with sins.

Secondly: with regard to sins, the Messengers, including Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), never committed any sin intentionally as an act of disobedience towards Allaah after receiving their Mission (risaalah). This is according to the consensus of the Muslims. They were protected from major sins (kabaa’ir) but not from minor sins (saghaa’ir).

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The view that the Prophets were protected from major sins (kabaa’ir) but not from minor sins (saghaa’ir) is the view of the majority of the scholars of Islam and all the sects… It is also the view of the majority of the scholars of tafseer and hadeeth, and of the fuqahaa’. Nothing was reported from any of the Salaf, Imaams, Sahaabah, Taabi’een or the successive generation that does not agree with this view.

(Majmaa’ al-Fataawaa, 4/319).

This question was posed to the Standing Committee on this topic:

Question:

Some people, including the heretics, say that the Prophets and Messengers could make mistakes, i.e., they could make mistakes like all other people. They say that the first mistake ever made was when the son of Adam, Qaabeel, killed Haabeel… and when the two angels came to Dawood, he listened to the first and did not listen to what the second had to say… and the story of Yoonus when the big fish swallowed him; and the story of the Messenger with Zayd ibn Haarithah, they say that he concealed something which he should have declared openly; and with his Sahaabah, he told them, “You know better about your worldly affairs,” and they say that this is because he made a mistake in this regard; and what happened with the blind man, which is referred to in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning), “(The Prophet) frowned and turned away, because there came to him the blind man…” [‘Abasa 80:1-2]. Could the Prophets and Messengers really make mistakes? How can we respond to these sinners [who say these things]?

Answer:

Yes, the Prophets and Messengers made mistakes, but Allaah did not approve of their mistakes; rather, He pointed out their mistakes as a Mercy to them and their ummahs, and He forgave their mistakes and accepted their repentance as a Grace and Mercy, for Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. This will be clear to anyone who checks out the aayaat of the Qur’aan in which the matters raised in the question are discussed… With regard to the sons of Aadam, even though they were not Prophets… Allaah explained how evil was the deed which he did to his brother…

(Fataawaa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, no. 6290, 3/194).

Thirdly: before they were given their Mission (risaalah), the scholars have said that it is possible that they may have committed some minor sins, but they were protected from committing major sins such as zinaa, drinking wine, etc.

But after they received their Mission, the correct view is that they may have committed some minor mistakes but this was not approved of and they were rebuked.

Shaykh al-Islam [Ibn Taymiyah] said:

Most of the reports from the majority of scholars state that they were not infallible with regard to minor mistakes, but they were not allowed to persist in them; they do not say that this could never happen at all. The first suggestion that they were completely infallible came from the Raafidis, who say that they are so infallible that they could never make any mistake even by way of forgetfulness and misunderstanding.

(Majmoo’ al-Fataawaa, 4/320).

They are infallible with regard to conveying the Message from Allaah, may He be exalted.

Shaykh al-Islam [Ibn Taymiyah] (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The aayaat which indicate the Prophethood of the Prophets also indicate that they are infallible with regard to the conveying of the Message from Allaah; so what they say can only be true. This is the meaning of Prophethood, which implies that Allaah tells the Prophet something of the Unseen and he tells it to the people. And the Messenger is commanded to call the people to Allaah and to convey the message of his Lord.

(Majmoo’ al-Fataawaa, 18/7)

Fourthly: mistakes which are committed unintentionally are of two types:

With regard to worldly matters: this happened to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). With regard to agriculture, medicine, carpentry, etc., he was like all other people. Allaah did not tell us that he was sent to us as a businessman or a farmer or a carpenter or a doctor. His mistakes in these fields are quite natural and do not impact on his Message at all.

It was reported that Raafi’ ibn Khudayj said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to Madeenah, and they were pollinating the date-palms. He said, “What are you doing?” They said, “We always used to pollinate them.” He said, “Perhaps if you do not do that, it will be better.” So they did not do it, and the harvest was lacking. They mentioned that to him, and he said, “I am only a human being like you. If I tell you to do something with regard to religion, then follow it, but if I tell you to do something based on my own opinion, I am only a human being.” (narrated by Muslim, 2361).

We note that the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) made a mistake in this worldly matter, because he was like all other human beings, but with regard to matters of religion he did not make mistakes.

With regard to unintentional mistakes concerning matters of religion:

The most correct view among the scholars is that the way this happened with regard to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is that he might do something which is OK but it was not the more appropriate choice.

He was sometimes faced with issues concerning which there was no shar’i text on which he could base his decision, so he sought to make ijtihaad based on his own opinion, just as any Muslim scholar may make ijtihaad, and if he makes the right decision, he will be given two rewards, and if he makes the wrong decision, he will still be given one reward. This is what the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If the judge makes ijtihaad and gets it right, he will have two rewards, and if he makes ijtihaad and gets it wrong, he will have one reward.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6919; Muslim, 1716, from the hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah).

This also happened to him concerning the prisoners of Badr.

Anas said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) consulted the people concerning the prisoners who had been captured on the day of Badr. He said, “Allaah has given you power over them.” ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, strike their necks [execute them]!” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) turned away from him. Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came back and said, “O people, Allaah has given you power over them and they were your brothers.” ‘Umar stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, strike their necks [execute them]!” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) turned away from him. Then the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came back and said something similar to the people. Abu Bakr stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, why don’t you forgive them and accept payment of ransom from them?” The worried expression left the face of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and he forgave them and accepted their payment of ransom. Then Allaah revealed the words (interpretation of the meaning):

“It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allaah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allaah is All-Mighty, All-Wise” [al-Anfaal 8:67]

Narrated by Ahmad (13143).

We may note that in this case, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not have any clear text so he made ijtihaad and consulted his companions, and he made a mistake in deciding what was the best thing to do.

Cases like this are few in the Sunnah. We have to believe that the Messengers and Prophets are infallible, and we know that they did not disobey Allaah. We should also beware of the words of those who want to cast aspersions on his conveying of the Message by referring to the fact that he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) made some mistakes with regard to earthly matters. There is a huge difference between the former and the latter. We should also beware of those misguided people who say that some of the rulings of sharee’ah which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us about are his own personal ijtihaad which could be right or wrong. What would these misguided people say in response to the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning): “Nor does he speak of his own desire. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired” [al-Najm 53:3]? We ask Allaah to protect us from confusion and misguidance, And Allaah knows best.

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/7208
Reply

Mustafa2012
10-31-2012, 03:42 PM
:jz:

Bro Perseveranze. I think your article is enough to clarify this matter :ia:
Maybe some people think that we're going o extremes in the defence of our Prophet. :saws1:

In response to that I say that the reason we defend Prophet Muhammad so much is because Allaah commands us in the Qur'aan to defend his honour.

Verily, We have sent you (O Muhammad ) as a witness, as a bearer of glad tidings, and as a warner.

In order that you (O mankind) may believe in Allah and His Messenger (), and that you assist and honour him (), and (that you) glorify (Allah's) praises morning and afternoon.

Verily, those who give Bai'a (pledge) to you (O Muhammad ) they are giving Bai'a (pledge) to Allah. The Hand of Allah is over their hands. Then whosoever breaks his pledge, breaks only to his own harm, and whosoever fulfills what he has covenanted with Allah, He will bestow on him a great reward. (Qur'aan 48:8-10)
If we lived in the time of Prophet Eesa or any other Prophet we would defend them in the same way because all the Prophets were Muslims and came with the same message.

In a book entitled "The 100 Most Influential People in History" by Michael Hart, a non Muslim, he rated Prophet Muhammad as the Most Influential person in history above Prophet Jesus. If anyone wants to understand why he did that, just buy the book and read it. It should be available on kindle. There is a free PDF version online as well.
Reply

Aprender
10-31-2012, 05:04 PM
:sl:
^ I hope you're not referring to me.

I was simply putting it out there that we need to be careful of the words that we use and the association that certain words have in the minds of people who are not Muslims or still trying to learn about Islam if they're not properly explained. This is for fear of giving them the wrong or incomplete ideas about our beliefs as Muslims and what we believe about the Prophet Muhammad :saws1:

As a former Christian, some of the words can be confusing/contradicting to them so I just asked for the members above to expand on a few things that they wrote and they did so as not to confuse some of our other Christian members on the forum. What our brother posted above was very thorough and clear.
Reply

Mustafa2012
10-31-2012, 05:46 PM
Sister I agree with what you're saying.

My post was general. I did not mention anyone in particular.
Reply

Abz2000
10-31-2012, 08:56 PM
Ok, just got round to reading this thread,
I'll give my take on it for what it's worth - and it may be flawed.
Firstly
The Prophets peace be upon them were men like the rest of us but were specially chosen to convey the message,
We as Muslims respect them for this and do our best to ensure that they are not openly reviled by anyone else as that demeans their character and the message with which they came.
Knowing that they were messengers of God who came with proofs and yet focusing on their mistakes indicates malice.

They were able to commit mistakes even to the extent of disobeying direct commands as did our father Adam pbuh out of God's infinite wisdom and mercy to us. We now know that we have a chance and can hope for mercy.

وَلَقَد عَهِدنا إِلىٰ ءادَمَ مِن قَبلُ فَنَسِىَ وَلَم نَجِد لَهُ عَزمًا
We had already, beforehand, taken the covenant of Adam, but he forgot: and We found on his part no firm resolve.
Quran 20:115

Then we have the case of Prophet Moses may the peace and blessings of Almighty God be upon him where he gave a degenerate infidel a one time punch and accidentally killed him.
He then repented and told Allah that he had wronged his soul and promised not to ever do anything similar.
Some may argue that this was before prophethood, but the Quran makes clear that God told his mother when Moses pbuh was a baby - that he would be a messenger, and Allah knows everything beforehand, including who will be chosen and who won't.

In this also there is a lesson for us that people may commit manslaughter and be forgiven, if they are sincere.

So yes, they were human and were able to make mistakes, they always repented and most importantly they conveyed the message to us - often at the risk of losing their lives,
If we do not benefit from learning about a mistake they committed, we have no need to expound it or help the enemies of God to discredit them and demean their message,
And what's worse is the fact that it is usually the worst of people who seek to find the mistakes or weaknesses of the prophets pbut- not because they seek to gain knowledge but because they hate the truth, God answers them in a couple of very short verses

وَما مَنَعَ النّاسَ أَن يُؤمِنوا إِذ جاءَهُمُ الهُدىٰ إِلّا أَن قالوا أَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ بَشَرًا رَسولًا
What kept men back from belief when Guidance came to them, was nothing but this: they said, \"Has Allah sent a man (like us) to be (His) Messenger?\"


قُل لَو كانَ فِى الأَرضِ مَلٰئِكَةٌ يَمشونَ مُطمَئِنّينَ لَنَزَّلنا عَلَيهِم مِنَ السَّماءِ مَلَكًا رَسولًا
Say, \"If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for a messenger.\"
Quran 17:94-95

And finally, I will repeat (in my own words) what my respected brother imams anwar said about those who question the actions of the prophets pbut,
We shouldn't even bother to to about in circles apologising for the prophets pbut, God has already honoured them with exalted status, nor should we give credence to those who question their actions,
Their problem is not what the prophets pbut did, their disease is that they reject the messages from God and usually refuse to accept that they were prophets pbut receiving inspiration in the first place.
The question is not: do you agree with whether this or that was justified, but do you agree that such and such person was a prophet in the first place, because if you do, you'll accept that anything they did was in God's infinite wisdom, if you don't.......
.......

قَد نَعلَمُ إِنَّهُ لَيَحزُنُكَ الَّذى يَقولونَ ۖ فَإِنَّهُم لا يُكَذِّبونَكَ وَلٰكِنَّ الظّٰلِمينَ بِـٔايٰتِ اللَّهِ يَجحَدونَ

We know indeed the grief which their words do cause thee: It is not thee they reject: it is the signs of Allah, which the wicked strive against.
Quran 6:33



قُل مَن كانَ عَدُوًّا لِجِبريلَ فَإِنَّهُ نَزَّلَهُ عَلىٰ قَلبِكَ بِإِذنِ اللَّهِ مُصَدِّقًا لِما بَينَ يَدَيهِ وَهُدًى وَبُشرىٰ لِلمُؤمِنينَ

Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by God's will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-

مَن كانَ عَدُوًّا لِلَّهِ وَمَلٰئِكَتِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَجِبريلَ وَميكىٰلَ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ عَدُوٌّ لِلكٰفِرينَ

Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and messengers, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith.

وَلَقَد أَنزَلنا إِلَيكَ ءايٰتٍ بَيِّنٰتٍ ۖ وَما يَكفُرُ بِها إِلَّا الفٰسِقونَ

We have sent down to thee Manifest Signs (ayat); and none reject them but those who are perverse.

Quran 2:97-99



So as far as I am concerned, they did their job of conveying the message they were charged with and they have my respect.
And if anyone refuses to accept they were prophets pbut (or that God even exists!) yet questions their actions, they're just losers who are in denial and looking for ways to justify their own denial by trying to poke holes in something they can't even fathom, they can go to hell (if they want).

When Umar ibn khattab may God be pleased with him felt violated at the treaty of hudaybiyah and asked Abu bakr (ra) if it was fair that the prophet pbuh had accepted a one sided treaty, Abu bakr replied with something along the lines of: I testify that he (pbuh) is God's messenger so stick with him and support him till the end.
Reply

InToTheRain
11-01-2012, 12:14 AM
This post is pointed to no one in particular and as a general point I would like to remind everyone that we are speaking of Allah Azza Wa Jals elect and we should be careful in what we insinuate or think about them for Allah Subhana Hu Wa Ta'ala is closer to us then our jagular vein. Any form of disrespect may anger our Creator so we should be EXTREMELY cautious.

The Prophets were Sinless, this does not mean they were void of free will but rather they were chosen for their love of Allah Subhana hu wa Ta'ala and were most earnest in pleasing Him.
To say that they were not protected from minor sins can be misinterpreted by some to mean they committed these sins which is wrong. Having the capacity to do something does not mean it will be done. I mentioned before; they always chose not to sin and without going into too much theological discourse know that Allah In His Unfathomable Wisdom knew this and chose them for this reason.

In the case of our great great great.... great great Mother and Father Adam and Hawa (peace be upon them) eating the fruit:

1) The preferred opinion is the his prophetic mission did not start until after he was forgiven
2) It was mankinds first act of free will! Quite a significant event.
3) It was necessary to learn from what happened after this event so how can he be blamed for it? In fact Mohammad(Peace be upon him) was present when Musa (Peace be upon him) accused our father Adam(Peace be upon him) for the cause of all these trials and tribulations and Adam overpowered him.


Prophets and Massengers (Peace be upon them) are the Chosen of Allah Sunhana hu Wa Ta'alah to be an example for mankind, role models for mankind; He does not want us to follow any haram, makruh, inappropriate acts and speech. The Prophets (PBUT) needed their followers absolute trust so how can they themselves be sinners? Any "percieved" errors on their part should be seen as necessary to learn from so they should not be blamed nor should it be seen as something which diminishes their rank.

Qadi `Iyad in al-Shifa' said that the Jumhur of the Jurists from the schools of Malik, al-Shafi`i, and Abu Hanifa, agree that the Prophets are protected from all minor sins because one is required to follow them in the minutest matters. It is even reported from Malik that this is obligatory to believe.

To insult the Character of any of the Prophets of God is an insult to God Himself for He Himself chose them; It is also destructive to mankind for it encourages decadence of the worst form.

Quote from George Bernard Shaw the famous journalist
“I have studied him (Muhammad PBUH) - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it much needed peace and happiness.”
And in the Holy Qur'an Allah Most High Says about Mohammad(Peace be upon him)
[68:4] and you are certainly on the most exalted standard of moral excellence.

And Allah Knows Best

Wa Salam
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