Muslim Nationalism - Fact or Fiction?

[TJ-alcapone]

In my observations about muslims and the Muslim world, I often see that muslims team up and align themselves with each other, for the sole reason that they share the same faith. I am by no means saying that Muslims are the only people to do this, as almost anyone is more likely to develop an affinity for people who think and share similar views. But at the same time, I feel that Muslims take that propensity to a whole new level.

For example, Muslims often speak out against the atrocities of war against Pakistan, Syria and other such Islamic countries. But by they same token, that don't seem to speak out against evils in the world that don't effect the Muslim world. Now I am an atheist who is a citizen of India, I speak out against the bombing of innocent civilians in Pakistan just as much as I show outrage for killings of tutsi's in the rwandan genocide. Almost always my outrage against violence and war stands the same, regardless of country, race, color and religion. But with muslims this seem to be the case to a small lesser extent, as their focus tends to be restricted to traditionally muslim lands.

Also, I think Muslims are quick to consider fellow people of their faith as compatriots, as compared to people outside of their faith. They consider their fellow muslims to be brothers and sisters of the same broad family. Whereas with people like me, it would be very unlikely that I would consider an atheist a brother any more than a muslim, given that I don't know either of them at first. I don't think I would place the interest of one over the other. So basically I am trying to say that I think muslims show solidarity based on religion. For example the violence that irrupted in the aftermath of the Danish Cartoon publication, there was vandalism and murder in many countries, all the way from Germany, to lebanon, to iraq, indonesia etc. Countries that had nothing to do with the publication in denmark.

So do you think there is a strong case for the presence of Muslim nationalism amongst muslims? Why or Why not? If you answer is yes, do you think this is justified?

[ardianto]

Greeting, brother TJ-alcapone.

Muslim Nationalism?. The right word is "Ukhuwah Islamiyah" or brotherhood under Islam. Yes, every Muslim is brother (or sister) of other Muslims, it's mean Muslims should maintain brotherhood, help each other, not fight each other, not cheat each other, etc.

But doesn't means Muslim are not allowed to build ukhuwah with non-Muslims. There is a kind of ukhuwah (brotherhood) that called "Ukhuwah Insaniyah/Basyariyah" (brotherhood under humanity), which Muslims are allowed to build it with non-Muslims as long as not against Ukhuwah Islamiyah. In example Muslim are allowed to help non-Muslims who are in hungry or disaster, but not allowed to help non-Muslims fight Muslims.

Why Muslims seen like speak out only in cases which related to Islam/Muslims?. It's because when Muslims speak out for cases that related to Islam/Muslims, they do it based on Ukhuwah Islamiyah and 'carry the flag of Islam'. And when Muslims speak out for cases that not related to Islam/Muslims, they do it based on Ukhuwah Insaniyah and they do not carry the 'flag of Islam'.

There are many Muslims who speak out against violence cases that happen to non-Muslims, but other people do not realize that they are Muslims. It's because .... as I've explained above.

And bro, Islam is not the only religion that have concept of brotherhood based on faith. Other religions have similar concept too.

[Pure Purple]

In my observations about muslims and the Muslim world, I often see that muslims team up and align themselves with each other, for the sole reason that they share the same faith. I am by no means saying that Muslims are the only people to do this, as almost anyone is more likely to develop an affinity for people who think and share similar views. But at the same time, I feel that Muslims take that propensity to a whole new level.

For example, Muslims often speak out against the atrocities of war against Pakistan, Syria and other such Islamic countries. But by they same token, that don't seem to speak out against evils in the world that don't effect the Muslim world. Now I am an atheist who is a citizen of India, I speak out against the bombing of innocent civilians in Pakistan just as much as I show outrage for killings of tutsi's in the rwandan genocide. Almost always my outrage against violence and war stands the same,.

Simply If any such situation is arises where a stranger and my brother is dying I'll safe my brother first then I'll look to stranger.

For example, Muslims often speak out against the atrocities of war against Pakistan, Syria and other such Islamic countries. But by they same token, that don't seem to speak out against evils in the world that don't effect the Muslim world.

why we would be????Muslims are persecute all around the world,we can't protect over selves,why would we interested in helping others.

So do you think there is a strong case for the presence of Muslim nationalism amongst muslims? Why or Why not?

I wish this would have been the case ,this is Not the case.If that would be case muslims countries would have helped burma muslims,Palestine etc...

[~Zaria~]

Greetings,

In my observations about muslims and the Muslim world, I often see that muslims team up and align themselves with each other, for the sole reason that they share the same faith. I am by no means saying that Muslims are the only people to do this, as almost anyone is more likely to develop an affinity for people who think and share similar views. But at the same time, I feel that Muslims take that propensity to a whole new level.

For example, Muslims often speak out against the atrocities of war against Pakistan, Syria and other such Islamic countries. But by they same token, that don't seem to speak out against evils in the world that don't effect the Muslim world. Now I am an atheist who is a citizen of India, I speak out against the bombing of innocent civilians in Pakistan just as much as I show outrage for killings of tutsi's in the rwandan genocide. Almost always my outrage against violence and war stands the same, regardless of country, race, color and religion. But with muslims this seem to be the case to a small lesser extent, as their focus tends to be restricted to traditionally muslim lands.

While your observations may be true from whatever exposure you have had to muslims, it would not be fair to generalise such comments to an entire community of people - who are simply united upon the Oneness of God and His final Messenger (peace be upon him).

Surely, you can not be aware of the work being done by muslims in all corners of the globe, and their contributions to society as a whole?

Heres some examples:

Gift of the Givers: http://www.giftofthegivers.org/disas...roduction.html

^ Heres a muslim initiated relief organisation - if you look to the panel on the right under 'Disaster Relief', you will notice that although there are many muslim states listed, there are also many non-muslim ones as well: India, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe, Haiti, Portugal, Japan, etc.

Not to mention our 'unsung heroes' - who quietly go about serving humanity - both muslims and non-muslims, without seeking any recognition.
I know of a muslim eye specialist who dedicates many of his weekends in removing cataracts of the blind - for free, irrespective of race or religion.

And the list is in fact endless.

The point being: lets avoid generalisations. It is usually based on little if any evidence and serves to disunite people - for no apparent reason.

Also, I think Muslims are quick to consider fellow people of their faith as compatriots, as compared to people outside of their faith. They consider their fellow muslims to be brothers and sisters of the same broad family. Whereas with people like me, it would be very unlikely that I would consider an atheist a brother any more than a muslim, given that I don't know either of them at first. I don't think I would place the interest of one over the other. So basically I am trying to say that I think muslims show solidarity based on religion. For example the violence that irrupted in the aftermath of the Danish Cartoon publication, there was vandalism and murder in many countries, all the way from Germany, to lebanon, to iraq, indonesia etc. Countries that had nothing to do with the publication in denmark.

So do you think there is a strong case for the presence of Muslim nationalism amongst muslims? Why or Why not? If you answer is yes, do you think this is justified?

A muslim is a brother to another muslim, as we are taught by the prophet of Islam (peace be upon him):

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, so he should not oppress him, nor should he hand him over to an oppressor. Whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs; whoever brought his (Muslim) brother out of a discomfort, Allah will bring him out of the discomforts of the Day of Resurrection, and whoever screened a Muslim, Allah will screen him on the Day of Resurrection . " (Sahih Bukhari)


Narrated Abu Musa: The Prophet said, "A believer to another believer is like a building whose different parts enforce each other." The Prophet then clasped his hands with the fingers interlaced (while saying that). (Sahih Bukhari)

An-Nu'man ibn Bashir reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "The metaphor of the believers in their mutual love, mercy and affection is that of the body. When one limb of it complains, the rest of the body collapses with sleeplessness and fever." [Agreed upon]


As you mention, an atheist does not view a fellow atheist the same - is this not just another example of the poverty of this creed of atheism?
If atheism teaches one that he has originated from nothing.....and is headed nowhere - the basis of unity does not even exist.

Perhaps you should ponder over this, and reflect on this beautiful teaching of Islam.

Even though we may have our differences, at the end of the day muslims will always remain united upon this very fact.


Peace

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[جوري]

Nationalism by its very definition is a Love of country!
what unites us isn't something so insane as a piece of land.



49:13 to top

{ يا أيها الناس إنا خلقناكم من ذكر وأنثى } آدم وحواء { وجعلناكم شعوبا } جمع شعب بفتح الشين هو أعلى طبقات النسب { وقبائل } هي دون الشعوب وبعدها العمائر ثم البطون ثم الأفخاذ ثم الفصائل آخرها، مثاله خزيمة: شعب، كنانة: قبيلة، قريش: عمارة بكسر العين، قُصي: بطن، هاشم: فخذ، العباس: فصيلة { لتعارفوا } حذف منه إحدى التاءين ليعرف بعضكم بعضا لا لتفاخروا بعلو النسب وإنما الفخر بالتقوى { إن أكرمكم عند الله أتقاكم إن الله عليم } بكم { خبير } ببواطنكم .

Sahih International
O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.

We're united by love for God, for truth and justice!

best,

[truthseeker63]

Muslims are One Family One Nation or Community Muslims should never divide themselves like Nationalists or Racists or Tribalists a Muslim's Identity must be based on Islam first.

[truthseeker63]

Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Allah, Most High, has removed from you the pride of the pre-Islamic period and its boasting in Ancestors. One is only a pious believer or a miserable sinner. You are sons of Adam, and Adam came from Dust. Let the people cease to boast about their Ancestors. They are merely fuel in Jahannam; or they will certainly be of less account with Allah than the beetle which rolls dung with its nose. (Book #41, Hadith #5097)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHad...earch_word=all

Our identity should be based on what we believe not on ancestors or what land or nation we were born in.

[truthseeker63]

I am American because I was born or am a citizen just like I was born in the State of Kansas and live here and am a citizen makes me an Kansan.

[TJ-alcapone]

Nationalism by its very definition is a Love of country!
what unites us isn't something so insane as a piece of land.

Although you are right in pointing that out, that is only true to an extent. Nationalism can also extend itself to religious roots. So the national identity of most Muslims people tends to be Islamic in nature. The only difference is that in the Islamic world, this nationalism extends itself beyond the borders to other Islamic nations as well. Such a phenomenon is called Pan-Nationalism, or in the case of Islam = Pan-Islamism.

Simply If any such situation is arises where a stranger and my brother is dying I'll safe my brother first then I'll look to stranger.

The right word is "Ukhuwah Islamiyah" or brotherhood under Islam. Yes, every Muslim is brother (or sister) of other Muslims, it's mean Muslims should maintain brotherhood, help each other, not fight each other, not cheat each other, etc.

A muslim is a brother to another muslim, as we are taught by the prophet of Islam (peace be upon him):

From all your above comments, I suppose I can confirm the existence of such a nationalistic presence in Islam, or the way you term it 'Brotherhood'. Although there is certainly an amount of generalization, sounds like my comments are far more fact than fiction. Although this kind of tribalism might have its benefits in that it gives the people a strong sense of identity, solidarity and belonging; it also comes with steep costs and I will try and elucidate why I think so.

1) Issues in a global world: Like it or not, many countries are fast turning multi-cultural these days. There are muslims all across Europe and in America, the count slightly increases each year, as is the case in Australia. Muslims come into these secular societies and bring along the baggage that their ideology comes with. But the expectation of people of those societies is for people to assimilate, or at the very least not cause hindrance with the proceedings in the country. But because of the strong sense of solidarity, that turns into separatism. Not only that Islam brings in its own version of morality and the law, which is often in conflict with the existing practices of the nation. Especially in the UK, you constantly find Muslims breaking the law and bringing in the sharia where it doesn't apply. So non-muslim societies dislike this for obvious reasons and mistrust starts to grow. Also there is an expectation from the rest of society towards Muslim immigrants to take pride in the history and culture of the lands that they immigrate to (I personally think patriotism is a stupid idea anyway). But muslims show far greater support for Muslim lands rather than the countries that they are living in. So especially in times like these, that results in growth of social divides which is never healthy.

2) Fundamentalism and hatred in Islam as a political ideology. Islam in its current for, allows and encourages hatred more than other religions. And politicians reap the full benefits to that. Christianity had to go through the same thing 400 years back, but it has largely cleansed itself of the use of the religion as a political ideology. Islam is going through that now with the arab spring uprisal. This fundamentalism is also the cause for violent and hate fueled attitudes. Take the danish cartoons incident for example, there was almost world wide protests, vandalism and rioting, in Islamic countries. Many people who had nothing to do with the incident had to pay with their lives and property.

3) Loss of critical reason. I seldom hear muslims while in conversation with non-muslims, be critical of their values and nations of origins. I am Indian myself, and lived their for 18 years of my life. But I don't look at India any differently, because I was born there. If anything, I look at it from a greater critical perspective because I understand it well, so that I am aware of what is wrong and that helps me work harder towards making it a better society to live in. The muslims that I have interacted with live in constant denial or fear of criticizing their governments. That is why their countries have such poor records of human rights violations. They seem to have a utopian picture of Islam and take up in arms when anyone is critical of either the religion or the nations whose state religion is Islam.

As you mention, an atheist does not view a fellow atheist the same - is this not just another example of the poverty of this creed of atheism?
If atheism teaches one that he has originated from nothing.....and is headed nowhere - the basis of unity does not even exist.

Atheism is not an ideology nor a doctrine. Atheism isn't a world-view either. It is simply a lack of belief in god. Whatever philosophical beliefs atheists hold, come from elsewhere. Such as humanism, free-thought, empiricism, rationalism, materialism, Skepticism, etc. Personally, I believe solidarity based on religion or nationalism is very dangerous and harmful to society. It only increases violence and separation. My view of an ideal world is one without borders, conflict, religious dogma, etc. It is definitely not a practical society, at least not one that I will live to see. But I do the next best thing, try and live without association to any tribalism. So how my world view is 'poverty' stricken, you should tell me.

[CosmicPathos]

you criticize nationalism but you dont have any nationalism within you for India? Saaray jahan say acha Hindustan hamara (Our India is better than whole of the universe?)? Dont you sing that? Or dont you sing vaande maatram?

[CosmicPathos]

My view of an ideal world is one without borders, conflict, religious dogma, etc.

That is a very naive view, child. You have much growing up to do. For more than 150,000 years since our species evolved, your view has never been materialized by any man. And it never will.

[جوري]

Pan-Islamism.

Indeed pan Islamism.. I love Muslims and may Allah :swt: unite our hearts as one and bring a strong united Ummah that knows no boundaries!

Al-Anfal (The Spoils of War)[8:46]

[RECITE]

[top] [next match]

WaateeAAoo Allaha warasoolahu wala tanazaAAoo fatafshaloo watathhaba reehukum waisbiroo inna Allaha maAAa alssabireena

8:46 And obey Allah and His Messenger. and fall into no disputes, lest ye lose heart and your power depart; and be patient and persevering: For Allah is with those who patiently persevere:

[جوري]

It only increases violence and separation.

Yes so far atheists have caused the most deaths, more than ALL the religions combined!

but we've had this topic hashed and rehashed here so many times.. Do you have an original thought just so when you stratify atheists into a less homogenous population as you've done above it would have some semblance of truth!

best,

[CosmicPathos]

Indeed pan Islamism.. I love Muslims and may Allah unite our hearts as one and bring a strong united Ummah that knows no boundaries!

I hope doctors in such an ummah dont meet the characterization in my signature!

[جوري]

I take offense at such categorization!
take the ten image challenge and pass it around to deflate egos:
http://imagequiz.nejm.org/?emp=marcomtr

[TJ-alcapone]

you criticize nationalism but you dont make any nationalism within you for India? Saaray jahan say acha Hindustan hamara (Our India is better than whole of the universe?)? Dont you sing that?

Believe me, as lead of my school choir I sang that anthem for 7 years straight every school day. With age, I of course I started reflecting on my beliefs. Today, it is no more to me than a song very familiar to me. I haven't had to sing it for a very long time, but if am hypothetically asked I would still sing it. But I reject it for most of its lyrical content. Just as I play many south Indian classical songs (which all tend to be religious) on my violin, I play them for their musical essence.

That is a very naive view, child. You have much growing up to do. For more than 150,000 years since our species evolved, your view has never been materialized by any man. And it never will.

It is utopian idea I agree. All I reply is by repeating by John Lennon's words, "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope some day you'll join us, And the world will be as one." Despite of the shortcomings of the world today, the world as a whole is relatively more peaceful now than it ever has been before. So I'd rather work towards more peace, rather than give up and allow the world to regress.

[جوري]

ughhhh.. we should impose tariff on these platitudinal sermons!

[CosmicPathos]

I take offense at such categorization!
take the ten image challenge and pass it around to deflate egos:
http://imagequiz.nejm.org/?emp=marcomtr

these egotistical individuals are killing me, especially when they are the ones evaluating me. :(

"you should say thank you a bit more."

"you are the bottom of the totem pole, act like one."

"on call you tried to correct me. I know more than you do. I have seen far more delirium cases than you ever have."

While this b**** is the one who gave NS 0.9% to the sick patient, resulting in his hypernatremia which probably accelerated his dying.
What should I do?

[جوري]

you are the bottom of the totem pole

That never changes in the system unfortunately. Never have I seen a nation that kowtows to its wh0res and has no respect for its scholars than this one. Everywhere else, everyone is polite and grateful, here the bottom of the totem pole doesn't change believe me, they whip you because they're whipped and that's just the way it is.. You got to find a way to deal with it.

:w:

[جوري]

NS 0.9% to the sick patient, resulting in his hypernatremia

it was .9 or .3?

[CosmicPathos]

My way to deal with it is I am not becoming an internist. I cant work with idiots in an hospital. Hospital is an extremely toxic environment for me. I cant have people telling me what to do, especially when they know no better.

And from the care given that I've seen, I'll prefer to die at home.

I will do what my family med preceptor did. An amazing and an intellectual doc, doing his own practice in the suburbs. No feet to lick. He told me the same thing "I wanted to do derm but I cannot work with idiots. I am satisfied with my family practice."

[جوري]

internists are some of the more cerebral doctors believe it or not.. At any rate, it won't get better.. hate to be so pessimistic, you just got to learn all you can and keep your feelings to yourself. That's how it works.. It is also the reason there are two ways out, suicide or postal.

:w:

[TJ-alcapone]

ughhhh.. we should impose tariff on these platitudinal sermons!

Ironic that a fundamentalist like you should be saying that. Had someone actually imposed that upon you, maybe the amount raised would suffice the needs of a few African villages.

[CosmicPathos]

internists are some of the more cerebral doctors believe it or not.. At any rate, it won't get better.. hate to be so pessimistic, you just got to learn all you can and keep your feelings to yourself. That's how it works.. It is also the reason there are two ways out, suicide or postal.

:w:

there is always someone more cerebral. it does not make them gods.

Only I wish I was in a position as a staff to show them their worth.

she gave 0.9% saline. It has 154mEq/L Na+, higher than plasma. Good for resuscitation cuz of isotonicity but bad when kidneys dont function.

[جوري]

she gave 0.9% saline. It has 154mEq/L Na+, higher than plasma. Good for resuscitation cuz of isotonicity but bad when kidneys dont function.

I enjoy that you make every post an opportunity to learn.. I come here to be amused by atheist musings .. let's keep it that way :p

[جوري]

Ironic that a fundamentalist like you should be saying that. Had someone actually imposed that upon you, maybe the amount raised would suffice the needs of a few African villages.

I put the fun in fundie.. now African villagers pay me :)

best,

[CosmicPathos]

I enjoy that you make every post an opportunity to learn.. I come here to be amused by atheist musings .. let's keep it that way :p

nerds are cool. :p

see? i am genuinely interested in learning. but in a nice way. :)

[جوري]

I suppose it works to ward off the trolls in a queer sort of way..

[Pygoscelis]

In example Muslim are allowed to help non-Muslims who are in hungry or disaster, but not allowed to help non-Muslims fight Muslims.

Does it matter who is in the right in the particular situation? Or will you just side with and fight with the muslim, simply because they are muslim and the other isn't, despite everything else?

[ardianto]

Does it matter who is in the right in the particular situation? Or will you just side with and fight with the muslim, simply because they are muslim and the other isn't, despite everything else?

If my brother bully innocent person I must stop him and protect the victim. If my brother still bully this innocent person, so I must fight him. But if someone ask me to help him bully my brother, of course I should refuse this request and stand with my brother.

Actually my first post was refering to case like in Gulf War when Bush (sr) asked Muslim majority countries to send troops and fight side by side with US Army.

[~Zaria~]

Although there is certainly an amount of generalization, sounds like my comments are far more fact than fiction.

Your statements are a complete generalisation. Where are the facts that you are referring to?

1) Issues in a global world: Like it or not, many countries are fast turning multi-cultural these days. There are muslims all across Europe and in America, the count slightly increases each year, as is the case in Australia. Muslims come into these secular societies and bring along the baggage that their ideology comes with. But the expectation of people of those societies is for people to assimilate, or at the very least not cause hindrance with the proceedings in the country. But because of the strong sense of solidarity, that turns into separatism. Not only that Islam brings in its own version of morality and the law, which is often in conflict with the existing practices of the nation. Especially in the UK, you constantly find Muslims breaking the law and bringing in the sharia where it doesn't apply. So non-muslim societies dislike this for obvious reasons and mistrust starts to grow. Also there is an expectation from the rest of society towards Muslim immigrants to take pride in the history and culture of the lands that they immigrate to (I personally think patriotism is a stupid idea anyway). But muslims show far greater support for Muslim lands rather than the countries that they are living in. So especially in times like these, that results in growth of social divides which is never healthy.

We do not apologise for our islamic identity, our unity based on the Oneness of God and His messenger, nor our love for each other as a brothers and sisters in Islam.
A strong believer will remain resistant to assimilating the culture and ways of others - which are not in accordance to the commands of our Creator or His messenger (peace be upon him).
Islam is a way of life - that encompasses EVERYTHING: from the manner we eat, dress, relate to one another, our marriages, burials, etc - are all laid out for us in the Quraan and/or in the way of life of the most beloved to us, Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wasalam).
Why do you expect us to adopt another way of life - developed by man......when we have the most ideal way of living - developed by God?

And as you say - 'patriotism is a stupid idea anyway'.

2) Fundamentalism and hatred in Islam as a political ideology. Islam in its current for, allows and encourages hatred more than other religions. And politicians reap the full benefits to that. Christianity had to go through the same thing 400 years back, but it has largely cleansed itself of the use of the religion as a political ideology. Islam is going through that now with the arab spring uprisal. This fundamentalism is also the cause for violent and hate fueled attitudes. Take the danish cartoons incident for example, there was almost world wide protests, vandalism and rioting, in Islamic countries. Many people who had nothing to do with the incident had to pay with their lives and property.

This is another generalisation.

Please refer to this thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...-violence.html and hopefully you will gain more understanding.

Personally, I believe solidarity based on religion or nationalism is very dangerous and harmful to society.

If you take some time to learn about this beautiful, all encompassing and meaningful way of life called Islam, you most certainly will realise that this is not the case.

Go ahead - open a Quraan and read the words of your Creator for yourself.....rather than judging a religion by its followers.

The truth can only be found if actually we make the effort to go directly to its source.


Peace

[TJ-alcapone]

Does it matter who is in the right in the particular situation? Or will you just side with and fight with the muslim, simply because they are muslim and the other isn't, despite everything else?

This is the philosophical position of some muslims that I simply don't understand. I ask some muslims if they would suspend their morality for the sole reason of showing support to a fellow Muslim, and they say yes. And the justification they give for such an action is that supposedly muslims can't be any different from one another if they are following the same religion. And this clearly cannot be the case as every individual has distinct differences from another in the way the extrapolate from the same theology. And this propensity to place their support for fellow muslims beyond all rationale, is in my opinion a very dangerous habit.

[جوري]

what do we call an atheist trying to ingratiate himself to another atheist whom he presumes will react in a similar fashion to the proposed stimulus?
hmmmmmn - well aside from the obvious projection, frank tribalism!

[TJ-alcapone]

Your statements are a complete generalization. Where are the facts that you are referring to?

The opinion that I had that there is a nationalistic element in Islam. And even you seem to be abiding by this Pan-Islamism. I don't understand what the problem is. It is a generalization, but not without truth.

We do not apologise for our islamic identity, our unity based on the Oneness of God and His messenger, nor our love for each other as a brothers and sisters in Islam.

Islam is a way of life - that encompasses EVERYTHING: from the manner we eat, dress, relate to one another, our marriages, burials, etc - are all laid out for us in the Quraan and/or in the way of life of the most beloved to us, Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wasalam).

Well in that case Muslims should not move into secular societies and should remain in Islamic states. If I move from the US to lets say Iran, it is a given that I have to abide by the law of the place, if not I could be legally prosecuted against. Simple. I am not expecting muslims to shed their belief systems. But the least that they can do is abide by the law and not come in conflict with it. Especially given that most secular systems are built to allow most amount of freedom to the individual. And if at all there are laws that muslims don't agree with, they should engage in debate and discussion and not blatant violation of it.

A strong believer will remain resistant to assimilating the culture and ways of others - which are not in accordance to the commands of our Creator or His messenger (peace be upon him).

This is again the fundamental nature of the way you interpret your religion. People don't live in boxes. Their belief systems come in contact and conflict with the outside world at times. That is why there are constitutions and legislation to allow the freedoms of everyone. But muslims seem to live in their own deluded world forcing their belief systems onto others. Lets say if my mother was to move to Saudi Arabia, for whatever she can't drive there. If she did try to break the law, she'd be punished. If Muslims expect such laws to be enacted in secular countries, they are very mistaken.

Go ahead - open a Quraan and read the words of your Creator for yourself.....rather than judging a religion by its followers.

The truth can only be found if actually we make the effort to go directly to its source.

Firstly, he is not my creator. He doesn't exist. And believe me, apart from the lack of evidence for god, I still went ahead and read many holy books Including the Old testament, the new testament the quran, bhagavat gita, The Upanishads, the guru granth sahib and a few other religious texts. The Quran would easily place first as the most oppressive, violence encouraging and fundamentalism inducing peace of text.

Again I constantly re-evaluate my world view, asking myself what the justifications are and if it is rationally feasible for me to hold such views. Moreover there is ample space for doubt, curiosity and ignorance (something very important for science). On the other hand fundamentalists start with the assumption that their religions book is all encompassing, perfect in every way and is the only source for knowledge. That, as I have said countless times before like a broken record, is not a habit that I would ever encourage.

[TJ-alcapone]

what do we call an atheist trying to ingratiate himself to another atheist whom he presumes will react in a similar fashion to the proposed stimulus?
hmmmmmn - well aside from the obvious projection, frank tribalism!

--- Philosophical agreement and extension of a point is not akin to tribalism. ---

[Pure Purple]

Well in that case Muslims should not move into secular societies and should remain in Islamic states. If I move from the US to lets say Iran, it is a given that I have to abide by the law of the place, if not I could be legally prosecuted against. Simple. I am not expecting muslims to shed their belief systems. But the least that they can do is abide by the law and not come in conflict with it. Especially given that most secular systems are built to allow most amount of freedom to the individual. And if at all there are laws that muslims don't agree with, they should engage in debate and discussion and not blatant violation of it.

In that case non muslims should not intervene in their matters and land where they are living.Non muslim do violating rules by killing innocence..you know very well about gujrat riots .what kind of secularism is this?

[جوري]

He doesn't exist. And believe me

Here's an oxymoron- ---

[Pure Purple]

And if at all there are laws that muslims don't agree with, they should engage in debate and discussion and not blatant violation of it.

if you feel muslims don't respect others beliefs why don't you tell non muslims engage in debate and discussion to explain muslims .

[~Zaria~]

The opinion that I had that there is a nationalistic element in Islam. And even you seem to be abiding by this Pan-Islamism. I don't understand what the problem is. It is a generalization, but not without truth.

I refer to this statement made in your OP:

For example, Muslims often speak out against the atrocities of war against Pakistan, Syria and other such Islamic countries. But by they same token, that don't seem to speak out against evils in the world that don't effect the Muslim world.

Which I have explained to be a generalisation of all muslims, and for which I have already given examples as evidence against it.

With regards to the brotherhood of muslims (which is a seperate issue), I have also provided you clear references for this - what do you still not understand?

Well in that case Muslims should not move into secular societies and should remain in Islamic states. If I move from the US to lets say Iran, it is a given that I have to abide by the law of the place, if not I could be legally prosecuted against. Simple. I am not expecting muslims to shed their belief systems. But the least that they can do is abide by the law and not come in conflict with it. Especially given that most secular systems are built to allow most amount of freedom to the individual. And if at all there are laws that muslims don't agree with, they should engage in debate and discussion and not blatant violation of it.

There are christians, jews, hindus and guess what - even atheists who do not 'abide by the law' and 'come in conflict with it'.
What is your point?

Whatever example you may hold of the above - is certainly not from the teachings of Islam.

Again, you have chosen to take isolated incidents and generalise it to the entire community of muslims as not 'abiding to the law'.

Why do you not look at the other 99% of muslims who DO abide to the law - while still maintaining their Islamic identity?

But muslims seem to live in their own deluded world forcing their belief systems onto others. Lets say if my mother was to move to Saudi Arabia, for whatever she can't drive there. If she did try to break the law, she'd be punished. If Muslims expect such laws to be enacted in secular countries, they are very mistaken.

The world is spacious enough for all of us.
If you chose not to abide by the laws of a specific country, then move on elsewhere - and this applies to all of us, including muslims.

Firstly, he is not my creator. He doesn't exist. And believe me, apart from the lack of evidence for god, I still went ahead and read many holy books Including the Old testament, the new testament the quran, bhagavat gita, The Upanishads, the guru granth sahib and a few other religious texts. The Quran would easily place first as the most oppressive, violence encouraging and fundamentalism inducing peace of text.

Its amazing - the same piece of text, read by millions (no, billions) across the world, is the source of peace, brotherhood, love for mankind and equality irrespective of race.
Its the reason why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, because of the realisation of its beautiful teachings.


I will leave you with this verse from the Holy Quraan:

“Verily, Allah is not ashamed to set forth a parable even of a mosquito or what is smaller than it.

And as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, but as for those who disbelieve, they say: “What did Allah intend by this parable”

By it He misleads many, and many He guides thereby. And He misleads thereby only the Fasiqin (the rebellious, disobedient to Allah)” (2:26).



I hope we have been sufficiently able to answer your queries.
And if not, then do know - 'Somethings are true, whether you believe it or not'.


All the best with your journey of knowledge.

Peace

[UmmuShaheed]

Asaalamu Alaikum
Thats the beautiful thing about Islam. We arent united by land, or blood, We are united by our submission to Allah. Swt
Its not nationalism, its following the verses of allah, and the ahadith Of our beloved prophet Mohamed May peace be upon him