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Abu.Yusuf
12-22-2012, 07:21 PM
As-Salaamu 'Alaykum


A quick reasoning as to why celebrating Christmas is not allowed as Muslims. This also includes any help, participation or acknowledgment in their festivals....

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Dagless
12-22-2012, 07:56 PM
What if you saw it more as a holiday/cultural/non-religious event?
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MartyrX
12-22-2012, 09:23 PM
I saw this posted on another forum. What's wrong with celebrating the birth of Jesus (pbuh) as a prophet anyways?
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GuestFellow
12-22-2012, 10:27 PM
It's not even a religious event. It's just a day when you buy stuff and give it to the little brats.
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sister herb
12-22-2012, 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by MartyrX
I saw this posted on another forum. What's wrong with celebrating the birth of Jesus (pbuh) as a prophet anyways?
I am wondering that too.
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QueenofHerts
12-22-2012, 11:05 PM
but it started from a religious event, its intention was that and since its celebrating the birth of God's son, I think muslims should stay well clear and also not make excuses for such things.
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Marina-Aisha
12-22-2012, 11:18 PM
wot if ur invited to christmas dinner is that also shirk?
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islamica
12-22-2012, 11:31 PM
as any rational person can see, there is no sound basis for Christmas, nor did Jesus (peace be upon him) or his true followers celebrate Christmas or ask anyone to celebrate Christmas, nor was there any record of anyone calling themselves Christians celebrating Christmas until several hundred years after Jesus. So were the companions of Jesus more righteously guided in not celebrating Christmas or are the people of today?


http://islamqa.info/en/ref/1130
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/947
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Muhammad
12-22-2012, 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by MartyrX
I saw this posted on another forum. What's wrong with celebrating the birth of Jesus (pbuh) as a prophet anyways?
From an article entitled: Christmas, Muslims and the Paganisation of Christianity


...Amid this culture is the widespread acceptance of the 25th of December being the birthday of Jesus Christ. However, as Pastors and Priests of the Christian faith have accepted over the years, this is an erroneous claim. Nevertheless they have continued to re-enact the nativity in their churches and narrate stories surrounding it which clearly demonstrates both their lack of desire for the truth and the way in which they easily accept falsehood and implement it into their religion.

Additionally, there is a phenomenon among a number of Muslims to partake in the Christmas festivities where they erect Christmas trees and exchange gifts. Ignorantly they have assumed that Christmas is typically associated with nationalism rather than theology, and in their fervent desire to assimilate into a British identity they feel obliged to get involved. However, as this article aims to demonstrate, Christmas is deeply theological and additionally, based in pagan and not Christian beliefs...

[...]

We as Muslims should pass this festival by with dignity, refraining from the office parties', Christmas celebrations, the exchange of gifts, and even exchanging Christmas greetings. There are a number of reasons for this; firstly, to become involved in a festival is to sanction the beliefs behind such a festival and as Muslims we are forbidden to sanction anything other than Islam. Just as we as Muslims distance ourselves from celebrations such as Diwali (Hinduism) and Hanukkah (Judaism), we must also do so with Christmas. By celebrating Christmas, not only do we sanction pagan and Christian practices, but we imply that the festival of polytheism is pleasing to us although Allah states,

This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.19
Secondly, Allah describes Christians as "those who went astray" in the opening chapter of the Qur'an, thus to celebrate something that is not even sanctioned in their religion is to imply that their straying is of no consequence. Thirdly, to take part in their festivities or to give greetings such as 'merry/happy Christmas' is to encourage and congratulate them in their actions instead of censuring them for their falsehood. This is in opposition to Qur'anic teachings whereby Allah states,

They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.20

Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour. Fear Allah, for Allah is strict in punishment.
21

Muslims, by the grace of Allah, have been afforded a complete way of life which details that which is best and most beneficial for the entire human race. We have the Qur'an and sunnah, and to cling to them is an aspect of the faith, regardless of the taunts of liberal Muslims and non-Muslims who may call us 'radicals' and 'fundamentalists'. To be fundamental is a part of Islam as A'ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) narrates that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said 'Whoever innovates something in this matter of ours (Islam) that is not a part of it will have it rejected.'22

Christmas remains a stark warning and example to Muslims of what can happen to Islam if we were to accept innovations into our faith. To cling to the Qur'an and sunnah as understood by the salaf is the only way to remain within the sanctified parameters of our deen. Christmas is a phenomenon that should encite the awareness of the Muslim laity to be mindful about those from whom they take their religion and religious knowledge. We thank Allah for preserving our faith and pray that he bestow upon us the ability to stay on the Straight Path.

http://www.islam21c.com/theology/173...f-christianity



Further information [From: http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...cles&id=142147]:

The non Muslims' celebrations such as the second millennium, Christmas Day, etc. are among the falsehoods that a Muslim should avoid. Allaah says (what means): {And those who do not bear witness to falsehood, and if they pass by some evil play or evil talk, they pass by it with dignity.} [Qur'an 25:72]. Many scholars of Qur'an like Ibn Seereen and Mujaahid icon7 1 - interpret "falsehood" as the festivals of the disbelievers.


However, participating in the festivals of non-Muslims is a kind of cooperation in the disobedience of Allaah. Allaah says (what means): {…Help you one another in Al-Birr and At-Taqwa (virtue, righteousness and piety); but do not help one another in sin and transgression….} [Qur'an 5:2]. A person came to the Prophet icon1 1 - and said: "I have taken a vow to sacrifice a camel at Buwaanah. The Prophet icon1 1 - asked: “Did the place contain any idol worshipped in pre-Islamic times? They (the people) said: “No”. He asked: “Was any pre-Islamic festival observed there?” They replied: “No”. The Prophet icon1 1 - said: “Fulfil your vow, for a vow to do an act of disobedience to Allaah must not be fulfilled, neither must one do something over which a human being has no control.”


No doubt celebrating such feasts is actually imitating disbelievers. The companion of the Prophet Abdullaah Ibn Amr Ibn al-'Aas icon3 1 - said: "Whoever celebrates the Persian New Year's Day or their carnival and imitates them till his death he will be resurrected with them on the Day of Judgment." The Prophet icon1 1 - said: "Whoever imitates a nation is but one of them." [Abu Daawood]


Many times Allaah has mentioned the details of the birth of 'Eesaa (Jesus) icon2 1 - in the Qur'an but He did not mention any celebration to be done on this occasion. Therefore, a Muslim is neither allowed to celebrate the Christmas Day nor is he allowed to congratulate them. A Muslim celebrates only the Islamic Eed days. Anas icon3 1 - reported: "The Prophet icon1 1 - came to Madeenah while they had two days they celebrated. The Prophet icon1 1 - asked, "What are these two days?" They said, 'These are two days we used to celebrate in our pre Islamic era. The Prophet icon1 1 - said: "Allaah has replaced them with two better days: 'Eed Al-Adh-haa and 'Eed Al- Fitr." [Ahmad and At-Tirmithi]


Moreover, no Muslim is allowed to congratulate non-Muslims on their festival celebrations. Imaam Ibn Al-Qayyim icon6 1 - reported the consensus of all scholars that greeting non-Muslims on their religious occasions is forbidden. He icon6 1 - said: “As for congratulating the disbelievers for their rituals, it is forbidden according to the agreement of all scholars- like: congratulating them for their feasts and fast by expressing good wishes: happy feast or enjoy your feast… etc. If the Muslim who says this does not become a disbeliever himself, he, at least, commits a sin as this is the same as congratulating him for his belief in the trinity, which is a greater sin and much more disliked by Almighty Allaah than congratulating him for drinking alcohol or killing a soul or committing fornication or adultery…etc.”


In a word, congratulating non Muslims for their feasts is synonymous of accepting their wrongdoing and disbelief in Allaah. Is there a greater disbelief than attributing a son to Allaah or saying that 'Eesaa (Jesus) icon2 1 - is Allaah or that Allaah is the third of three "gods"? So, any Muslim who congratulates a person for a sin, an innovation or an act of disbelief has exposed himself to the hatred and anger of Almighty Allaah...
Also:

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...cles&id=155796 - Ruling on celebrating Christmas


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M.I.A.
12-23-2012, 12:12 AM
i watched the vid,

i get what he is saying but there is a point not considered.

we as muslims write of chrisitanity as a lost religion simply because it is altered.

it has become a cultural religion and the same argument has been leveled at islam... and justly so... for the majority.


there are people that will always call themselves christians and jews... and they will always be mentioned as people of the book.. until the book it altered.


so i urge people to understand there will always be belief and sincerity and guidance until a day that the murderers take over.

until there is no heart and no compassion, no recognition of belief, piety or morality.

when the parroting of words and a conformity to ones own clothing is seen as better than a just people.


when it becomes a cultural religion.


it should make you question what exactly the place is?

what islam is?

how it works in the world and how it is spread.


these things are not easily learned in segregated communities.



imo.


i sent christmas cards to school.

...most the kids in the class are asian.


i dunno?


anyway i do go with the murderer analogy, it is almost what life is like.

really.
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YusufNoor
12-23-2012, 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by MartyrX
I saw this posted on another forum. What's wrong with celebrating the birth of Jesus (pbuh) as a prophet anyways?
so...just pick a day and celebrate a Prophet?

according to the current Nazi Pope:

The idea that Christ was born on Dec 25 also has no basis in historical fact. "We don't even know which season he was born in. The whole idea of celebrating his birth during the darkest part of the year is probably linked to pagan traditions and the winter solstice."
that's just THE Pope saying it. don't take my word!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...aims-Pope.html
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M.I.A.
12-23-2012, 12:20 AM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
so...just pick a day and celebrate a Prophet?

according to the current Nazi Pope:



that's just THE Pope saying it. don't take my word!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...aims-Pope.html

yes well the irony of wiping someone from the pages of history does not allude me.

make sure it does not happen again lol.


...but we dont celebrate birthdays.
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MartyrX
12-23-2012, 12:45 AM
Nothing in the Al-Fatiha says that Christians have gone astray. It does say those who have gone astray, but it doesn't say Christians. Who we are told to respect as People of the Book in the Quran.

I realize and understand that their are some pagan influences to Christmas. However are you celebrating those Pagan traditions? Are you worshiping Jesus (pbuh) as the son of Allah? What if you're spending time with your family? Not everyone was raised in a Muslim family. Also if a Christian asked you over for dinner on that day and you accepted as an act of good faith and being a good friend or neighbor, where is the harm in that? Especially if they respect your religion.

You do remember that our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did fast on Yom Kippur? That's a Jewish holiday isn't it?
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QueenofHerts
12-23-2012, 12:52 AM
Originally Posted by MartyrX
Also if a Christian asked you over for dinner on that day and you accepted as an act of good faith and being a good friend or neighbor, where is the harm in that? Especially if they respect your religion.

You do remember that our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did fast on Yom Kippur? That's a Jewish holiday isn't it?
Im sure former christians can eat with their families. Its these silly muslims from muslim families who think it is ok to go out and get a turkey and christmas tree when Allah has given us our two holidays to celebrate.
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QueenofHerts
12-23-2012, 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by MartyrX

You do remember that our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did fast on Yom Kippur? That's a Jewish holiday isn't it?
he didnt fast FOR yom kippur though, did he? So lets not get it twisted^o)
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M.I.A.
12-23-2012, 01:34 AM
i have no idea, i just fast when the mosque tells me.. literally.

and when my mum tells me.


sometimes the mosque gets it wrong.


also say turkey is the national dish.

like in Jerusalem.
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Muhammad
12-23-2012, 01:47 AM
Originally Posted by MartyrX
Nothing in the Al-Fatiha says that Christians have gone astray. It does say those who have gone astray, but it doesn't say Christians. Who we are told to respect as People of the Book in the Quran.
Even if you choose not to accept this interpretation given to the last verse in Surah Al-Fatihah, it does not change the fact. Their very act of celebrating something not sanctioned by their religion is sufficient to show their straying from true teachings. Moreover, one finds many warnings in the Qur'an to the People of the Book, such as:


Say: "O People of the Scripture! Exceed not the limits in your religion beyond the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray before and who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the right path.'' [Al-Ma'idah:77]

There are also clear teachings in Islam that Muslims should not imitate their practices. Respecting a people can be done quite easily without participating in their practices and festivals.

I realize and understand that their are some pagan influences to Christmas. However are you celebrating those Pagan traditions? Are you worshiping Jesus (pbuh) as the son of Allah?
Why should we risk coming close to anything that might resemble these actions in the first place?

What if you're spending time with your family? Not everyone was raised in a Muslim family.
Our discussion is general here. If you're referring to difficulties faced by reverts, then that should be dealt with separately.

Also if a Christian asked you over for dinner on that day and you accepted as an act of good faith and being a good friend or neighbor, where is the harm in that? Especially if they respect your religion.
There is no harm in declining the offer and instead going to their house (or calling them to yours) on a different day, out of good faith and neighbourliness. If they truly respect your religion, they will respect this choice of yours and understand it.

You do remember that our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did fast on Yom Kippur? That's a Jewish holiday isn't it?
The Prophet's (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam)'s actions here were indeed noteworthy, as he paid particular attention to being different from the Jews. It has been suggested that the motive for commanding the Muslims to fast on this day was the desire to be different from the Jews, so that the Muslims would fast when the Jews did not, because people do not fast on a day of celebration. Furthermore, it is recommended to fast the day prior to this, and one of the reasons given for that is to be different from the People of the Book.

And Allaah (swt) knows best.
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Jalal~
12-23-2012, 01:50 AM
:sl:
So how should I respond to these greetings anyway? I don't think the other person is going to expect me to give a 10 minute lecture on why I'm not allowed to reply back or attend these gatherings, but at the same time I don't want to be rude and ignore him. I'm sure there is some hadith where Rasoolullah peace be upon him had a way of dealing with these sticky situations quickly and efficiently.

I know one thing: if there isn't a good solution on how to deal with this, many people will continue to give these greetings anyways, so you guys should go find some answers or this thread will end up useless.
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جوري
12-23-2012, 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by Jalal~
So how should I respond to these greetings anyway?
When I am addressed with 'merry whatever' I respond with a nondescript Enjoy your holidays. I must admit that Christmas is the one that annoys me the most followed by Valentine. Two concocted, greed driven holidays that are utterly meaningless and and imposed on man and beast alike for no reason whatsoever. If they want to enjoy the birth of their god, why do they impose on others buying them presents and interrupting all things on TV you can' teven turn it on to watch the news without the brainwash. I don't care so much except you can't avoid any of the kids especially those at an impressionable age all this crap.
I was watching this agent oso with my young niece the other day and I got so p off with the agent's assignment to first get this 'save Israel' those were the first words uttered then followed by Hanukkah, Christmas, kwanzah.. and she was wondering about why no Eid. I just shut that crap off. Brain wash starts from a very young age and basically what are you gonna do about it? Well the least we can do isn't partake in it & perpetuate their delusions.

:w:
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Pygoscelis
12-23-2012, 08:02 AM
I listened for a minute or two to this explanation of why muslims shouldn't be involved in christmas, and the guy started talking about "murderers"... I gave up listening.
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glo
12-23-2012, 08:19 AM
http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co.u...ours_1_1748173

The local authority’s housing wing, Tower Hamlets Homes, asked families on housing estates in Bethnal Green and Wapping to help organise parties to improve interfaith understanding.

Groups run by non-Muslims organised three Eid parties earlier this year, with residents from all backgrounds joining in.

Muslim groups returned the invitation this week with Christmas celebrations, when the Dorset Community Association in Wapping held a joint event with Bethnal Green’s Columbia Tenants’ Association.

Youth worker Angela Brown, who held the shindig in Wapping, said: “We had 200 children and their families joining Santa which made it a Christmas to remember.”
Any thoughts?
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Cabdullahi
12-23-2012, 08:33 AM
^ Whatever floats their boat really...all i know is the sweetest thing I've nibbled on is smoked turkey breast.

turkeysalamisammy014 1 -
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Signor
12-23-2012, 09:03 AM
Ruling on Celebrating Non-Muslim Festivities

Two festivities of the People of the Book are looming these days, i.e Christmas and the New Year. We have become used to those festivities being celebrated in companies, organisations, societies, etc. We are also used to some Muslims participating, joining, and attending these gross events of falsehood, behaving in a way not befitting those who belong to this magnificent religion. It is for this reason that we want to write these words as a reminder for the Muslims. The question is: how should the Muslims act during such occassions?



The answer, in Ibn Taymiyah’s words, is that nothing should be done at all. This means that we, as Muslims, should not do anything we do not usually do on such days. It should be just another day with nothing special about it, as if they (People of the Book) are not celebrating. In this way Muslims make themselves different.
Allah (s.w.t.) has indicated to us the hostility of the infidels in many verses, including: "Verily, the disbeleivers are ever unto you open enemies" [4: 101]. Allah (s.w.t.) also called them the party of Satan and Satan’s allies, etc.


The Prophet (s.a.w) said: ‘You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a lizard, you would follow them.’ We said, ‘O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?’ He said, ‘Whom else?’


Joining the People of the Book in their festivities is more, or at least as forbidden, as joining idolaters other than the People of the Book. No one should argue that it is only the idolaters who are meant and that the People of the Book have common grounds with Muslims that are not applicable to others.


Shaikhul Islam Ibn Taymiyah has proved the prohibition of celebrating the Christmas, Persian festivities such as Neyrouz, Jewish festivities and festivities of others as well, by stating that they all come under the same ruling. Since we should not imitate them in festivities, Muslims who do this must be forbidden from doing so, let alone approve and support them. We should not answer invitations from Muslims who invite us specifically on such occasions. If a Muslim holds an unusual celebration that coincides with one of the People of the Book’s festivities we do not have to answer the invitation although otherwise a Muslim should answer an invitation from a fellow Muslim as in the Prophet’s tradition.


Shaikhul Islam states details on issues related to the time and space dimensions of the festivities. He, for example, says: "And a Muslim should not sell food, clothes, or other items that encourage Muslims to be similar to the People of the Book in their festivities." From this we understand that if selling such items is forbidden, then selling cards that have a picture of a cross or church for greeting and congratulation of the festivity is also forbidden, let alone joining and being involved in this gross falsehood. Prohibition extends also to everything related to the festivity, eg, congratulating, offering gifts, food, etc., since the festivity includes those and many other concepts.


Ibn Taymiyah quoted the evidence on celebrating the infidel’s festivities. The first evidence is that Allah (s.w.t.) forbade us to imitate the infidels or be their allies. The issue comes under loyalty, which is part of the faith itself. Believing and accepting their feasts would be confirming their faith. Rejecting it is required, as rejecting any other faith the infidels may adhere to, as Allah (s.w.t.) indicated: "O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as allies". [5: 51]. Attending their festivities implies being allies to them, and accepting the festivities as being Muslim festivities. In this way the festivities of Satan’s party and associates become festivities for Allah’s party and associates which contradicts the evidence, let alone the instinctive rejection of disagreement Allah built in everyone.


The detailed evidence from the Book of Allah includes Allah’s description of the believers, whom He calls "Worshippers of the Most Gracious", saying: "And those who do not witness falsehood and if they pass by "Laghow" (evil play or evil talk) they pass by it with dignity". [25: 72]. The scholars and interpreters of Al-Quran quoted Mujahed, Ad-Dhahak, Ikrimah and others that Laghow means festivities of the idolaters, ie, "Worshippers of the Most Gracious" do not attend festivities of the idolaters.


The Tradition contains numerous Hadiths including; Anas (r.a.a) said: Rasulullah (s.a.w) arrived to Al-Madinah when its citizens had two days as festivities (The Arabs had two days of festivities in pre-Islamic time). The Prophet (s.a.w) said: "What are those two days?" They said: "We used to celebrate them in pre-Islamic time." He said: "Allah has offered you two better alternative days, viz, Day of Al-Adha and Day of Fitr". [Abu Dawood].

The implication of this Hadith is that Rasulullah (s.a.w) did not approve those two pre-Islamic festivities and did not allow them to celebrate them and insisted on alternative festivities.


The second Hadith by Thabet Ibn Al-Dhahalah (r.a.a) said: A man during the time of the Prophet (s.a.w) made a vow to God to slaughter camels at "Bawatah". The Prophet asked: Was there an idol of the pre-Islamic idols? He said: No. The Prophet said: Was there any of their festivities? He said: No. The Prophet said: Then carry out your vow. There should be no vows implying disobedience to Allah nor in what one has no power to do it.". [Bukhari and Muslim].

After quoting this Hadith, Shaikhul Islam said: "The implication in this Hadith is that slaughtering in a place of their festivities or idols is an act of disobedience to Allah (s.w.t.)".


We also understand from the Hadith that the Prophet’s prohibition was on account of the place being one of celebration. When it was not, there was no prohibition. This indicates the condition on the place remains.

http://www.kalamullah.com/fatwa22.html

-----------------------------------------
Any thoughts?
About article,Just like there are non-practicing and ignorant Christians in Christianity(like those who consider Muhammad(PBUH) as false prophet and stuff,Aaodubillah),so is in Islam we have this kind of Muslims too who don't know much.I am sure if its not 25,your Muslim friends can give you a visit on 26th or 27th of December for party,if It doesn't harm you or them.Being respectful to each other is also we are taught by the Islam.Hope you can understand.

Peace

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truthseeker63
12-23-2012, 11:39 PM
Christmas is Pagan.

Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.
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Abu.Yusuf
12-24-2012, 12:25 AM
MashaaAllaah, Quite a lot of replies, questions, confusion and misconceptions....I dont know if i can answer all of them in one go. I hope I cover everyone's queries:


1. The term 'Eid refers to a celebration which recurs [e.g. yearly]
2. This type of recurring celebration is considered to be an act of worship in Islaam and the Prophet [saw] said that each nation has its OWN 'Eid - which indicates that each nation is known by their own festivals
3. The Prophet [saw] said that we have our 2Eids - since Eid is an act of worship and the number given is explicit, our approach as Muslims is to limit ourselves to what is mentioned in the text [unless of course there are other evidences to indicate otherwise]. This approach is the reason why we pray 5 times a day - we cannot increase this number nor decrease it and same with the Eid being 2. These types of rules are known in Usool ul-fiqh as 'Tawqeefiyyah'.

4. From the above, ALL forms of recurring celebrations are forbidden, not just Christmas. Bcos we have only 2 Eid sanctioned by Islaam, it is forbidden to celebrate christmas, easter, mothers day, valentines day and even birthdays [and the associated evil with each one, if it exists, only makes the forbidden weightier].
With the birthdays, it includes our own birthday, our childrens, parents and even the birthday of our Prophets [pbut]. Hence, the idea of celebrating 'Isa [as] birthday is still Haraam even if 25th december has become a culturing thing or had nothing to do with christianity etc [and besides, as mentioned already, 25th dec is not even a confirmed date of 'Isa [as] birthday.]

5. There were other questions which i felt was asked due to not listening to the video maybe... if you have listened and your question is not answered than please do ask again and someone here can clarify bi'izhnillaah
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Abu.Yusuf
12-24-2012, 12:32 AM
another thing id like to add:

When we get invited for food or someone wishes us etc, we should take it as a opportunity to give them Da'wah. Rememeber Da'wah is not about telling people off or just telling them that they are wrong, it is an act of mercy as it involves explanation and clarification about Allaah and His Messengers and His Deen and it will aid a person to become a better person and inshaaAllaah attain Jannah.

So when a Christian invites us to get involved in Christmas, take the chance to explain to them why its not right to celebrate Christmas instead of approving to it and invite them to Islaam
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ardianto
12-24-2012, 05:23 AM
Did I ever attend in Christmas celebration?. If this celebration means event that related to worship like pray, sing Christmas song, ... no, no, I never attended, and I always avoid it.

I always came after they finished their own celebration and start the Open House which they receive guests that not only from Christian community. Usually in Dec 25 afternoon, or Dec 26 or 27. Depend on who I visited first.

But I think this year I cannot visit them. Need few hours only to visit one family, while my wife now is in illness and I cannot leave her.
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ardianto
12-24-2012, 05:24 AM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
according to the current Nazi Pope:
You can call him Pope Benedict XVI, or just Pope. But you don't need to insult him. Imagine if Catholic people call our Shaykhs as terrorist leaders.

Originally Posted by Abu.Yusuf
So when a Christian invites us to get involved in Christmas, take the chance to explain to them why its not right to celebrate Christmas instead of approving to it and invite them to Islaam
Just tell this Christian that you cannot come. You don't need to talk about Christmas like this to him. Let other people believe their belief.
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cottonrainbow
12-24-2012, 11:17 AM
Assalamu alaikum fellow Muslims!

SOmetimes, life's situations are not always black and white. Before reverting to Islam, I knew that Christmas is a pagan holiday, but I celebrated it! It began as a religious celebration, but has spiraled off into this big monster of greed and gluttony. Anywhoo, I never liked Christmas because I was that one kid who's parents could not always afford lavish gifts and I had to suffer and watch all the other neighborhood kids play with all of their nice things (bikes, barbies, hot wheels, game systems) while I may have only gotten coloring books or puzzles. Worse yet, I lied about what "Santa" brought me because the teachers would always make us stand up in class and tell the class how great of a time we had during the holidays.

Back on topic, Christmas invades my life and there isn't much I can do about it but pray that Allah eventually remove these elements in due time. My household is 50% Christian, 50% Muslim. My mother, who is Christian HAS to put up the CHristmas tree, lights and decorations, and HAS to make pork filled dishes that me and hubby can't eat. We have discussions that sometimes blowup into arguments about some things because my mother does not understand (and at her age, refuses to understand) that something she's blindly celebrated for soo long is just haram to us and we want no part in it. I can't change her on my own, so I try to deal with it. Does it stress me out? yes, but what can I do? I'm not going to disrespect or shun my mother or my family because they have a different belief system.

People around me at work always say, "merry Christmas" or Happy Holidays to me, knowing full well that I do not celebrate Christmas. I respond "Enjoy your Holiday" and continue on with my life.

Old lades in their eighties give me Daily devotional (christian) books and Jehovah's witnesses bang on my door on a Saturday morning and sometimes even shove their book through my front door :raging:. I politely deal with them. I pray for Patience and guidance from Allah SWT.

Sometimes, I feel as if I am in the belly of the beast. These things make me hold ever so tightly to becoming the best Muslim that I can possibly be. It makes me happily give Salat five times a day and read surahs from the Quaran because I have to be prepared for the craziness, and yet not offend or turn another human off from Islam because I want to be mean or offend them like they offend me. I see every person as a potential revert and they must be treated with love and care as our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was commanded by Allah (SWT) through Gabriel to Read Read read. We Muslims must be careful not to offend or scorn others or they will close their minds to us and never consider Islam.

Honestly, I have many people (mainly Christians) who come to me, asking for prayer, how to pray, asking for an Islamic point of view, asking how to get closer to God, for guidance, etc. These are opportunities for me, insh'Allah to open their hearts to Allah (SWT)and Islam because Allah (SWT) MAKES MUSLIMS. Some of us are born into Islam, but some of us WANT to be MUSLIMS and Allah SWT Blesses us to become Muslims.

So, I say, let them have their pagan holidays for now. Surely Allah (SWT) has the power to change these things.
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glo
12-24-2012, 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by cottonrainbow
My mother, who is Christian HAS to put up the CHristmas tree, lights and decorations, and HAS to make pork filled dishes that me and hubby can't eat.
Why does your mum HAVE to make pork dishes?
If I had Muslims staying with me (for Christmas or otherwise), I would try to avoid cooking pork ...
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ardianto
12-24-2012, 12:57 PM
@ Glo

I thought today you are so busy in preparing Christmas celebration. :)
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Abu.Yusuf
12-24-2012, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Just tell this Christian that you cannot come. You don't need to talk about Christmas like this to him. Let other people believe their belief.

Yes you are right, we dont have to say it in the way i mentioned. However, you are also completely wrong... having a 'let other people believe their belief' is not a mentality sanctioned by Islaam - it is quite the opposite and sort of undermines any Da'wah work.

Dawah is an obligation. Its aim is to bring people to the belief system and way of life of Islaam [but obviously it should be done according to the Sunnah]. We make the effort while the result is in Allaah's Hands as He is the one who changes peoples hearts. So we should never have a 'live and let live' attitude, otherwise nobody is going to be there to stop people from walking into Hell Fire....
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Cabdullahi
12-24-2012, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
@ Glo

I thought today you are so busy in preparing Christmas celebration. :)
Glo will be making Eid preparations next year insha'Allah
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Woodrow
12-24-2012, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by MartyrX
I saw this posted on another forum. What's wrong with celebrating the birth of Jesus (pbuh) as a prophet anyways?
We are not to celebrate the birth of anyone. Not even the birth of Muhammad(PBUH) although many do.
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Woodrow
12-24-2012, 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
We are not to celebrate the birth of anyone. Not even the birth of Muhammad(PBUH) although many do.
I should have clarified, it usually is not considered a sin if one does celebrate it.

This may clarify better HERE
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'Abd-al Latif
12-24-2012, 10:19 PM
:salamext:

I want to begin by saying that Islam is perfect and it is the only religion that Allah approves of as He says: "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." (Qur'an 5:3)

Islam being the only religion with Allah means that all other religions and what is connected to them are rejected by Him, even if a form of their acceptance is granted by Him (such as accepting Jews and Christians as the people of the book).

So regarding Christmas: we are not to celebrate it, partake in it or have anything to do with it in any way or form. This is not intended to insult any non-Muslims but for Muslims to be living examples of the people who venerate the name of Allah, the Most High, at all times and in all places through obedience to Allah.

An "Eid" or festival in Islam is any celebration that returns after a while, whether it's something daily,weekly, monthly or yearly, something that returns and is celebrated. All forms of such an Eid are forbidden except for 'Eid al-Adha and Eid al-Fitr simply because of what the Messenger :saws1: said.

This is proven in a hadeeth in saheeh Muslim where the Prophet :saws1: said that "Allah has replaced it with that which is better: the two Eids [of Fitr and Adha]".

This implies that all forms of returning celebrations, whether these are birthdays, anniversaries or anything of a similar kind are forbidden in Islam. Celebrations that are connected with any other religion are even moreso forbidden because by Muslims partaking in them shows an approval of them. "Partaking" is defined as doing things like giving Christmas cards, wishing marry Christmas or attending their feasts (or anything else). A Muslim is required to decline them because any kind of positive gesture towards religiously connected festival shows a form of approval of a religion besides Islam. And Allah says about this, "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam never will It be accepted of Him." (Qur'an 3:85)

A Muslim is therefore required to decline all non-Muslim celebrations and festivals, but this should not deter a Muslim from displaying a righteous character through kindness, forbearance and humbleness. A Muslim should be confident, strong and forthright with regards to His religion and His Lord and should not lower himself to please the creation – lest Allah becomes displeased with you and causes the creation to be displeased with you.
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Scimitar
12-24-2012, 10:27 PM
I know there are some Muslims like myself who have good relations with their neighbours, and on Eid days, these neighbours who are Christian will often knock on our doors and gift us an "Eid Mubarak" with a greeting card...

...Is it not common courtesy to respond back with the same? I'm a little confuddled on this matter. Can someone clarify?
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جوري
12-24-2012, 10:39 PM
why not just a courteous 'Enjoy your holidays' - that way you don't acknowledge what it is and the 'your' makes it non-personal. It is what I personally do.

:w:
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Scimitar
12-24-2012, 10:45 PM
true, but still, they went out of the way to wish us a Happy Eid,

Ofcourse, there are things we can say that do not wish a happy Christmas outright, things like "happy holidays" "don't get too drunk" "I know you'll be enjoying your festiivities then dieting for the whole of January" etc. etc,

but hardly any of that seems as nice as "Merry Christmas" - my intention in wishing them a merry xmas is to show the common courtesy that exists between good neighbours. Like for like.

And I do not see that as negating my Islam, but a part of my Islam. I do not partake in their activities, I do not celebrate with them - but I can be courteous - and that is my intention.

I guess the real question should be, "Does intention outweigh the action in Allahs esteem?"
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cottonrainbow
12-24-2012, 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Why does you mum HAVE to make pork dishes?
If I had Muslims staying with me (for Christmas or otherwise), I would try to avoid cooking pork ...
That's you, being a sensible and thoughtful person. You know full well that most Christians simply do not care to accomodate a Muslim--especially Bible-Belt Southern Christians.
She's an older, Southern Christian woman who has been making the same dishes for years. She's not going to stop for my sake. We'd discussed substituting the pork for beef or lamb, but to no avail. So, to keep the conlficts to a minimum, we just avoid the pork dishes. Simple.
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Pygoscelis
12-24-2012, 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
We are not to celebrate the birth of anyone. Not even the birth of Muhammad(PBUH) although many do.
Muslims don't have birthday parties for their friends?
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Woodrow
12-24-2012, 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Muslims don't have birthday parties for their friends?
Many in the USA do especially for their children. That does not mean they are supposed to.
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Perseveranze
12-25-2012, 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
I know there are some Muslims like myself who have good relations with their neighbours, and on Eid days, these neighbours who are Christian will often knock on our doors and gift us an "Eid Mubarak" with a greeting card...

...Is it not common courtesy to respond back with the same? I'm a little confuddled on this matter. Can someone clarify?
Asalaamu Alaikum,

The logic applied here within the context of Islam is that, by congratulating them on Christmas (ie. saying Merry Christmas to them), is the same as congratulating them on committing shirk. "Merry celebrating Jesus Christ, son of god's birth".

And some Scholars have made the analogy that you wouldn't congratulate a murderer on doing murder, or a rapist on raping someone, so how can you congratulate someone on doing what is considered the biggest sin in Islam, celebrating ascribing partners to God?

The only thing you can do is that, on Christmas, if they give you a gift, then you're allowed to accept it with the intention that it softens their hearts.

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ardianto
12-25-2012, 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by Abu.Yusuf
Yes you are right, we dont have to say it in the way i mentioned. However, you are also completely wrong... having a 'let other people believe their belief' is not a mentality sanctioned by Islaam - it is quite the opposite and sort of undermines any Da'wah work.

Dawah is an obligation. Its aim is to bring people to the belief system and way of life of Islaam [but obviously it should be done according to the Sunnah]. We make the effort while the result is in Allaah's Hands as He is the one who changes peoples hearts. So we should never have a 'live and let live' attitude, otherwise nobody is going to be there to stop people from walking into Hell Fire....
I know what is da'wah. And honestly, I do not agree with aggresive da'wah that attack other people belief.

We should tell other people about Islam. If they are interested to know more about Islam, we should explain them. If they want to become Muslim, we should help them entering Islam. But if they are not interested to become Muslim ...... there is no compulsion in entering Islam.

If those people choose to stay in their faith, and want to still believe what they believe, let them believe their belief. Remember, there is no compulsion in entering Islam.

And I very appreciate if Christian missionaries leave their aggresive method in spread Christianity.
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M.I.A.
12-25-2012, 02:19 AM
Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Asalaamu Alaikum,

The logic applied here within the context of Islam is that, by congratulating them on Christmas (ie. saying Merry Christmas to them), is the same as congratulating them on committing shirk. "Merry celebrating Jesus Christ, son of god's birth".

And some Scholars have made the analogy that you wouldn't congratulate a murderer on doing murder, or a rapist on raping someone, so how can you congratulate someone on doing what is considered the biggest sin in Islam, celebrating ascribing partners to God?

The only thing you can do is that, on Christmas, if they give you a gift, then you're allowed to accept it with the intention that it softens their hearts.

i just watched the vid.

it makes sense.



but most if not all christians are born into there shirk.

born into there customs and celebrations.


so are they still kuffar?

the easy answer is yes.


the long answer requires a lot more work.

and i know the person in the video is a lot more knowledgeable than me.


but i know that you cant dismiss people of other religions based on shirk, its not your judgement to make.


...otherwise why would we even have reverts?


im sorry but it is not always islam vs the west, the pagens, the non believers.

it is always islam vs those that stop the propagation of islam...

those within it and external.



and when they spend time in your company, they get what your really about.


i mean even if you do not greet them today, chances are they are not an alien and will still be in your lives tomorrow.



you get what you give really.. so maybe a softly softly approach is needed.


i mean under it all there are human beings... they must be.


the truth is if they seem like murderers and rapists then its a good time to walk away.
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crimsontide06
12-25-2012, 02:47 AM
You cannot condemn people for being born into a culture. People believe and practice cultures they were born into...everyone on this board, if you were born to a christian family, you would be a christian, atheists family.. atheists, Hindu, Indian, Jewish....etc..


I do though find it creepy and scary to tell a child "hey there's a big bearded old man who will be roaming around the house while you are asleep"


santa clause... THAT part I do not agree with, an innovation on top of the innovation LOL
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Roasted Cashew
12-25-2012, 03:33 AM
Can I as a Muslim wish my Christian friends "Merry Christmas" ?? What is the general verdict on this?
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glo
12-25-2012, 04:14 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
@ Glo

I thought today you are so busy in preparing Christmas celebration. :)
Christmas is a fairly low-key event in our house, ardianto.
The children wanted the house decorated - so I put them in charge of that.
We will do the food preparation together in the morning.

Christmas Eve was quiet for me - a church service in the afternoon, a take-away meal in the evening and then family time. :)
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glo
12-25-2012, 04:19 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
I know there are some Muslims like myself who have good relations with their neighbours, and on Eid days, these neighbours who are Christian will often knock on our doors and gift us an "Eid Mubarak" with a greeting card...
...Is it not common courtesy to respond back with the same? I'm a little confuddled on this matter. Can someone clarify?
We have a Muslim family in our street and we have exchanged Eid and Christmas gifts for years.
I have to admit that it was our Muslim neighbours who started the tradition :)

Interestingly, when I took our gift around yesterday evening, I took note that the lady said "I hope YOU have a Merry Christmas" ... which kind of made it clear that this is OUR celebration and not hers.
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LauraS
12-27-2012, 11:07 AM
There seems to be a snobbish attitude when it comes to Christmas, that it's just about people spending ridiculous amounts of money on other ungrateful people but it's not like that at all. I've just spent a lovely two days with my family and that's what Christmas is also about- family time.

My family isn't really religious but love Christmas. It's a time, for a few days, when you put aside normal life and worries and just enjoy yourself. To address some of the things in the thread: we enjoy giving each other presents and what's wrong with that? People tend to enjoy giving more than receiving. It's not like we just give each other the latest expensive gadgets, I had books, jumpers and that kind of thing. And to Guestfellow, not all children are "brats" at Christmas. If you've never celebrated Christmas then you can't judge others and you don't realise what a magical time it is for kids. It isn't "creepy" to tell children about Father Christmas , my parents used to leave a couple of presents in my bedroom and in the morning I'd wake up while it was still dark and see the outline of the presents and get excited that Father Christmas had been. Christmas is a time when you just feel safe and warm with your family so I don't see what's wrong with enjoying it. I understand Muslim's reasons for not celebrating it, I'm just saying don't look down on those that do and think we just want to get expensive gifts because that's not the case at all. I had a very fun evening playing pictionary at my grandparents last night. :D

Sad that's it's the 27th now. imsad
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Cabdullahi
12-27-2012, 01:27 PM
No one is looking down at anyone..enjoy your Christmas and we would like obama and co to stop droning the kids so they too can enjoy festive holidays every year
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LauraS
12-27-2012, 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by Cabdullahi
No one is looking down at anyone..enjoy your Christmas and we would like obama and co to stop droning the kids so they too can enjoy festive holidays every year
I will enjoy my Christmas thank you and your sudden inclusion of drones in the conversation makes no sense.... ^o)
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glo
12-27-2012, 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
Sad that's it's the 27th now.
Don't you know that Christmas doesn't end until the 6th of January? So no need to be glum! happydancing 1 -
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ardianto
12-27-2012, 05:22 PM
In Indonesia where majority of people are Muslims, Christian people have 3 public holidays. But, does Eid-ul fitr becomes public holiday in UK?.

Okay, okay, maybe it's because the number of Muslims in UK are very small, and mostly of them are not native British people. But, just for information, in Indonesia, Confucian people are less than 0.3% and all of them are Chinese, but they have public holiday.

:)
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Jalal~
12-29-2012, 03:17 AM
Originally Posted by LauraS
There seems to be a snobbish attitude when it comes to Christmas, that it's just about people spending ridiculous amounts of money on other ungrateful people but it's not like that at all. I've just spent a lovely two days with my family and that's what Christmas is also about- family time.

My family isn't really religious but love Christmas. It's a time, for a few days, when you put aside normal life and worries and just enjoy yourself. To address some of the things in the thread: we enjoy giving each other presents and what's wrong with that? People tend to enjoy giving more than receiving. It's not like we just give each other the latest expensive gadgets, I had books, jumpers and that kind of thing. And to Guestfellow, not all children are "brats" at Christmas. If you've never celebrated Christmas then you can't judge others and you don't realise what a magical time it is for kids. It isn't "creepy" to tell children about Father Christmas , my parents used to leave a couple of presents in my bedroom and in the morning I'd wake up while it was still dark and see the outline of the presents and get excited that Father Christmas had been. Christmas is a time when you just feel safe and warm with your family so I don't see what's wrong with enjoying it. I understand Muslim's reasons for not celebrating it, I'm just saying don't look down on those that do and think we just want to get expensive gifts because that's not the case at all. I had a very fun evening playing pictionary at my grandparents last night. :D

Sad that's it's the 27th now. imsad
Yes, of course, Christmas is a good holiday and many good things can be learned from celebrating this holiday. As Muslims we don't celebrate it because we already have two holidays of our own. And on these holidays, we still keep up with our religious duties, but at the same time we give each other gifts, attend gatherings to eat lunch or dinner, hang out with friends, etc. Muslims kids eventually learn why we celebrate Eid al Adha and Eid ul Fitr and learn more about their religion. And just to take a little pride in my holidays, Eid doesn't teach children to lie from a young age, as some Muslim children who do celebrate Christmas learn that its ok to lie once they find our Mr. Santa Claus isn't real :p

So I mean, why should I add another holiday to my religion when I already have two great ones? Why should I follow these traditions of getting together on one certain day of the year with all of my relatives, when Islam calls for people to maintain the ties of kinship? Why should I wait until December to buy a bunch of presents when Islam calls for people to spend on their wives and donate to charity, even if it's just a smile? :D These things you mention about getting together to eat, buying each other presents, and feeling safe and warm should be done moderately throughout the entire year, not just one day annually at such high intensity. Now that i think about it, I feel sad when in June my friends tell me they dont get gifts until Christmas, or can't wait for their birthdays to get money. Like that's a pretty long wait.

Same thing goes for Valentines Day, I mean it's a great reminder for love and affection towards your loved ones, but I know of many people who don't do anything special until this day comes.

I mean, by all means, if your non-Muslims, then you can celebrate those holidays, i don't mind. But when it comes to Muslims, I'm just like come on man, have some pride!:statisfie
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glo
12-29-2012, 09:33 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
In Indonesia where majority of people are Muslims, Christian people have 3 public holidays. But, does Eid-ul fitr becomes public holiday in UK?.
Interesting question.

Whilst Eid is not a public holiday in the UK, it is very common for Muslim children to get the day off school. Also many employers make allowances.
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Muhaba
12-30-2012, 11:30 AM
For one thing, celebrating birthdays (including birthday of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم or Esa عليه السلام ) is bid'a since it wasn't done by Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم . A second thing is that celebrating christmas will make the one doing it love a kafir culture and that will effect their eman as well as the eman of the children /young ones. One should ask oneself: why do i want to celebrate christmas? Is it because i want to be more like these people (Westerns)? Why do i want that?

In the eend, it is because one loves their identity more than their own islamic identity. loves their culture more than their own. all of those are not good things. The best way is the Way of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم . the others are manmade ways and aren't equal to the best way in any way.
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LauraS
12-30-2012, 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by Jalal~
Yes, of course, Christmas is a good holiday and many good things can be learned from celebrating this holiday. As Muslims we don't celebrate it because we already have two holidays of our own. And on these holidays, we still keep up with our religious duties, but at the same time we give each other gifts, attend gatherings to eat lunch or dinner, hang out with friends, etc. Muslims kids eventually learn why we celebrate Eid al Adha and Eid ul Fitr and learn more about their religion. And just to take a little pride in my holidays, Eid doesn't teach children to lie from a young age, as some Muslim children who do celebrate Christmas learn that its ok to lie once they find our Mr. Santa Claus isn't real :p

So I mean, why should I add another holiday to my religion when I already have two great ones? Why should I follow these traditions of getting together on one certain day of the year with all of my relatives, when Islam calls for people to maintain the ties of kinship? Why should I wait until December to buy a bunch of presents when Islam calls for people to spend on their wives and donate to charity, even if it's just a smile? :D These things you mention about getting together to eat, buying each other presents, and feeling safe and warm should be done moderately throughout the entire year, not just one day annually at such high intensity. Now that i think about it, I feel sad when in June my friends tell me they dont get gifts until Christmas, or can't wait for their birthdays to get money. Like that's a pretty long wait.

Same thing goes for Valentines Day, I mean it's a great reminder for love and affection towards your loved ones, but I know of many people who don't do anything special until this day comes.

I mean, by all means, if your non-Muslims, then you can celebrate those holidays, i don't mind. But when it comes to Muslims, I'm just like come on man, have some pride!:statisfie
I'm not saying Muslims should celebrate Christmas, just explaining why people enjoy Christmas, addressing comments made on this thread like it's "meaningless". You have Eid (which sounds just as pleasant!) and we have Christmas each is just as special for each culture. Valentines Day is very different, it's not such a big deal and people don't really care so much.

As for Father Christmas- all cultures/religions teach children not to lie! When I was told Father Christmas wasn't real I didn't think "oh so it's all right to lie" you just accept it's something for children. Besides I think every child has that little part inside of them that knows it's nonsense. :p
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marwen
12-30-2012, 07:13 PM
Salam and hi all !

I just want to clarify some points, for muslims and especially for our non muslim brothers and sisters here who wonder why muslims are so reserved in such issues :

- Islam is a religion that is very important for muslims. Muslims believe Islam is a message sent by Allah, litterally. So it's not a human invention or a human perception of the meaning of God, Life or Universe. No human contribution should occur to the fundamentals of Islam (Quran, Sunnah, Ibadat, Aqeedah, etc.), but humans could propose explanations (tafseer) or interpretation of those fundamentals. That's why the original message of Islam consisting of Quran and Sunnah (Hadeeth) is preserved, in addition with other books of tafseer and fiqh (islamic jurisprudence), etc.

- Muslims are so strict about conserving the integrity of the message of Islam in its original form. Any type of addition that has no justification (daleel) from the original Islamic principles, is considered as innovation (bid'a), and is rejected especially by the most strict islamic schools.

- Islam should not be altered by ideas and concepts contradicting the fundamentals of the islamic religion, whether it be from other ideologies, philosophies or religions.

- In islam, Interfaith dialogue means : respect for other religions, coexisting with other religions, and freedom to talk or ask questions about any religion, without insulting each others' sanctities. But should not in any way generate an altered version of Islam that is a mix of Islam and other ideologies. Islam is also strict concerning the act of leaving the religion of Islam. Adopting ideas that contradict the principles of Islam is also considered and implicit act of Kufr (disbelief).

- Celebrating christmas is an act of kufr, as many scholars pointed out. Giving help, attending, or contributing to the celebration of Christmas is also Haram, even giving/sending Christmas greetings is considered haram because it shows the approval of this celebration.
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marwen
12-30-2012, 07:30 PM
A remark :
The Birth of Jesus : (Read these verses)
سورة مريم - الآيات : 16 .. 40 :ـ

وَٱذۡكُرۡ فِى ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ مَرۡيَمَ إِذِ ٱنتَبَذَتۡ مِنۡ أَهۡلِهَا مَكَانً۬ا شَرۡقِيًّ۬ا (١٦) فَٱتَّخَذَتۡ مِن دُونِهِمۡ حِجَابً۬ا فَأَرۡسَلۡنَآ إِلَيۡهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرً۬ا سَوِيًّ۬ا (١٧) قَالَتۡ إِنِّىٓ أَعُوذُ بِٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّ۬ا (١٨) قَالَ إِنَّمَآ أَنَا۟ رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَـٰمً۬ا زَڪِيًّ۬ا (١٩) قَالَتۡ أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لِى غُلَـٰمٌ۬ وَلَمۡ يَمۡسَسۡنِى بَشَرٌ۬ وَلَمۡ أَكُ بَغِيًّ۬ا (٢٠) قَالَ كَذَٲلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَىَّ هَيِّنٌ۬*ۖ وَلِنَجۡعَلَهُ ۥۤ ءَايَةً۬ لِّلنَّاسِ وَرَحۡمَةً۬ مِّنَّا*ۚ وَكَانَ أَمۡرً۬ا مَّقۡضِيًّ۬ا (٢١) ۞ فَحَمَلَتۡهُ فَٱنتَبَذَتۡ بِهِۦ مَكَانً۬ا قَصِيًّ۬ا (٢٢) فَأَجَآءَهَا ٱلۡمَخَاضُ إِلَىٰ جِذۡعِ ٱلنَّخۡلَةِ قَالَتۡ يَـٰلَيۡتَنِى مِتُّ قَبۡلَ هَـٰذَا وَڪُنتُ نَسۡيً۬ا مَّنسِيًّ۬ا (٢٣) فَنَادَٮٰهَا مِن تَحۡتِہَآ أَلَّا تَحۡزَنِى قَدۡ جَعَلَ رَبُّكِ تَحۡتَكِ سَرِيًّ۬ا (٢٤) وَهُزِّىٓ إِلَيۡكِ بِجِذۡعِ ٱلنَّخۡلَةِ تُسَـٰقِطۡ عَلَيۡكِ رُطَبً۬ا جَنِيًّ۬ا (٢٥) فَكُلِى وَٱشۡرَبِى وَقَرِّى عَيۡنً۬ا*ۖ فَإِمَّا تَرَيِنَّ مِنَ ٱلۡبَشَرِ أَحَدً۬ا فَقُولِىٓ إِنِّى نَذَرۡتُ لِلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ صَوۡمً۬ا فَلَنۡ أُڪَلِّمَ ٱلۡيَوۡمَ إِنسِيًّ۬ا (٢٦) فَأَتَتۡ بِهِۦ قَوۡمَهَا تَحۡمِلُهُ ۥ*ۖ قَالُواْ يَـٰمَرۡيَمُ لَقَدۡ جِئۡتِ شَيۡـًٔ۬ا فَرِيًّ۬ا (٢٧) يَـٰٓأُخۡتَ هَـٰرُونَ مَا كَانَ أَبُوكِ ٱمۡرَأَ سَوۡءٍ۬ وَمَا كَانَتۡ أُمُّكِ بَغِيًّ۬ا (٢٨) فَأَشَارَتۡ إِلَيۡهِ*ۖ قَالُواْ كَيۡفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كَانَ فِى ٱلۡمَهۡدِ صَبِيًّ۬ا (٢٩) قَالَ إِنِّى عَبۡدُ ٱللَّهِ ءَاتَٮٰنِىَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ وَجَعَلَنِى نَبِيًّ۬ا (٣٠) وَجَعَلَنِى مُبَارَكًا أَيۡنَ مَا ڪُنتُ وَأَوۡصَـٰنِى بِٱلصَّلَوٰةِ وَٱلزَّڪَوٰةِ مَا دُمۡتُ حَيًّ۬ا (٣١) وَبَرَّۢا بِوَٲلِدَتِى وَلَمۡ يَجۡعَلۡنِى جَبَّارً۬ا شَقِيًّ۬ا (٣٢) وَٱلسَّلَـٰمُ عَلَىَّ يَوۡمَ وُلِدتُّ وَيَوۡمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوۡمَ أُبۡعَثُ حَيًّ۬ا (٣٣) ذَٲلِكَ عِيسَى ٱبۡنُ مَرۡيَمَ*ۚ قَوۡلَ ٱلۡحَقِّ ٱلَّذِى فِيهِ يَمۡتَرُونَ (٣٤) مَا كَانَ لِلَّهِ أَن يَتَّخِذَ مِن وَلَدٍ۬*ۖ سُبۡحَـٰنَهُ ۥۤ*ۚ إِذَا قَضَىٰٓ أَمۡرً۬ا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ ۥ كُن فَيَكُونُ (٣٥) وَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ رَبِّى وَرَبُّكُمۡ فَٱعۡبُدُوهُ*ۚ هَـٰذَا صِرَٲطٌ۬ مُّسۡتَقِيمٌ۬ (٣٦) فَٱخۡتَلَفَ ٱلۡأَحۡزَابُ مِنۢ بَيۡنِہِمۡ*ۖ فَوَيۡلٌ۬ لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِن مَّشۡہَدِ يَوۡمٍ عَظِيمٍ (٣٧) أَسۡمِعۡ بِہِمۡ وَأَبۡصِرۡ يَوۡمَ يَأۡتُونَنَا*ۖ لَـٰكِنِ ٱلظَّـٰلِمُونَ ٱلۡيَوۡمَ فِى ضَلَـٰلٍ۬ مُّبِينٍ۬ (٣٨) وَأَنذِرۡهُمۡ يَوۡمَ ٱلۡحَسۡرَةِ إِذۡ قُضِىَ ٱلۡأَمۡرُ وَهُمۡ فِى غَفۡلَةٍ۬ وَهُمۡ لَا يُؤۡمِنُونَ (٣٩) إِنَّا نَحۡنُ نَرِثُ ٱلۡأَرۡضَ وَمَنۡ عَلَيۡہَا وَإِلَيۡنَا يُرۡجَعُونَ (٤٠)

Surat Maryam - verses 16 .. 40 :
And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, (16) And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man. (17) She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God-fearing. (18) He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. (19) She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste? (20) He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a Revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained. (21)And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place. (22) And the pangs of childbirth drove her unto the trunk of the palm-tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died ere this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten! (23) Then (one) cried unto her from below her, saying: Grieve not! Thy Lord hath placed a rivulet beneath thee, (24) And shake the trunk of the palm-tree toward thee, thou wilt cause ripe dates to fall upon thee. (25) So eat and drink and be consoled. And if thou meetest any mortal, say: Lo! I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficent, and may not speak this day to any mortal. (26) Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing. (27) O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot. (28) Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy? (29) He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet, (30) And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive, (31)And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest. (32) Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! (33) Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt. (34) It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. (35) And lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path. (36)The sects among them differ: but woe unto the disbelievers from the meeting of an awful Day. (37) How well they hear and see and hear them on the Day they come unto Us! yet the evil-doers are to-day in error manifest. (38) And warn them of the Day of anguish when the case hath been decided. Now they are in a state of carelessness, and they believe not. (39) Lo! We Only, We inherit the earth and all who are thereon, and unto Us they are returned.(40)


In the verse 25 of Surat Maryam (in red above), in order to eat, Maryam is ordered to shake the trunk of the palm tree, and the dates will fall upon her easily, which means dates are ripe, and we know that dates are ripe only in summer, so celebrating the birthday of christ should be in summer not in winter.
Reply

Veritas
01-02-2013, 05:10 AM
Originally Posted by truthseeker63
Christmas is Pagan.
That's garbage as is your next post. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. Our Lord, the son of God.

The lines you've uttered could've just as easily as have been uttered by an Islamaphobhic US Fundamentalist Christian, who's adopted the puritanical extremist Protestant thinking first openly espoused by Oliver Crimeell 500 years ago.
Reply

Veritas
01-02-2013, 05:16 AM
^Cromwell
Reply

Insaanah
01-02-2013, 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by truthseeker63
Christmas is Pagan.
Originally Posted by truthseeker63
Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.
Originally Posted by Veritas
That's garbage as is your next post. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. Our Lord, the son of God.

The lines you've uttered could've just as easily as have been uttered by an Islamaphobhic US Fundamentalist Christian, who's adopted the puritanical extremist Protestant thinking first openly espoused by Oliver Crimeell 500 years ago.
The very fact that Christians attribute a son to God, and worship him, is seen by Muslims as polytheistic or some would say pagan; worshipping of more than one deity, namely Jesus and God. You'd probably want to refute that here, but as there are many threads in comparative religion where this has been mentioned and discussed ad nauseum already, if necessary that can be done there by using the search function.

You may not like that, but that is the truth. It is an allegation against God that is so serious, that He says:

They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son."
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous.
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant. (19:88-93)

Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, "Allah hath begotten a son":
No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying; what they say is nothing but falsehood. (18:4-5)

As to the second post, it is also true, Jesus (peace be upon him) didn't celebrate Christmas, nor told others to do so - it's not a practice that stems from him, nor was his command. He would not be familiar with it any respect. In that sense, it has nothing to do with him.

You see in Islam, these are the main points regarding the concept of God:

There is only One God. He alone should be worshipped. He is our Creator, Sustainer, Cherisher, and Lord. No being, no object, nothing other than Him, is worthy of prayer/worship.

He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, daughters, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any sort.

He is eternal and does not die.

He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need, and has never been helpless or depended on anyone. He feeds us, and is not fed.

There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, the Creator of the Universe.

He did not and does not, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity.
There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, no intermediaries, and no denying of God's existence either.

There are no sharers or associates or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.

We believe that every prophet including Jesus (peace be upon him) taught the same.

I hope you can see where we are coming from.

Peace.
Reply

YusufNoor
01-02-2013, 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by Veritas
That's garbage as is your next post. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. Our Lord, the son of God.

The lines you've uttered could've just as easily as have been uttered by an Islamaphobhic US Fundamentalist Christian, who's adopted the puritanical extremist Protestant thinking first openly espoused by Oliver Crimeell 500 years ago.
how could you possibly sport a user name such as veritas, and yet be so distant from the truth? and propaganda to boot, attributing the truthful pagan origins of Christmas to Cromwell! perhaps you'd consider a new user name? Bernays, perhaps!

if you wish to save your user name, perhaps you could provide us with the following:

1) a Biblical reference to Santa Claus

2) a Biblical reference to decorating a Christmas tree

3) a Biblical reference to the use of mistletoe

4) a Biblical reference to Jesus being born on Dec 25th

5) ANY verified historical reference to Jesus being born on the 25th

6) a Biblical reference to Jesus celebrating Christmas

7) a Biblical reference to any Apostle celebrating Christmas

8) the first date in history that you are aware of that Christians celebrated Christmas

9) the date that the Catholic Church adopted Christmas as a holiday

10) any historical research that you've done on the subject

11) the day and year you believe Jesus was born

When was Jesus born?

A. Popular myth puts his birth on December 25th in the year 1 C.E.

B. The New Testament gives no date or year for Jesus’ birth. The earliest gospel – St. Mark’s, written about 65 CE – begins with the baptism of an adult Jesus. This suggests that the earliest Christians lacked interest in or knowledge of Jesus’ birthdate.

C. The year of Jesus birth was determined by Dionysius Exiguus, a Scythian monk, “abbot of a Roman monastery. His calculation went as follows:

a. In the Roman, pre-Christian era, years were counted from ab urbe condita (“the founding of the City” [Rome]). Thus 1 AUC signifies the year Rome was founded, 5 AUC signifies the 5th year of Rome’s reign, etc.

b. Dionysius received a tradition that the Roman emperor Augustus reigned 43 years, and was followed by the emperor Tiberius.

c. Luke 3:1,23 indicates that when Jesus turned 30 years old, it was the 15th year of Tiberius reign.

d. If Jesus was 30 years old in Tiberius’ reign, then he lived 15 years under Augustus (placing Jesus birth in Augustus’ 28th year of reign).

e. Augustus took power in 727 AUC. Therefore, Dionysius put Jesus birth in 754 AUC.

f. However, Luke 1:5 places Jesus’ birth in the days of Herod, and Herod died in 750 AUC – four years before the year in which Dionysius places Jesus birth.

D. Joseph A. Fitzmyer – Professor Emeritus of Biblical Studies at the Catholic University of America, member of the Pontifical Biblical Commission, and former president of the Catholic Biblical Association – writing in the Catholic Church’s official commentary on the New Testament[1], writes about the date of Jesus’ birth, “Though the year [of Jesus birth is not reckoned with certainty, the birth did not occur in AD 1. The Christian era, supposed to have its starting point in the year of Jesus birth, is based on a miscalculation introduced ca. 533 by Dionysius Exiguus.”

E. The DePascha Computus, an anonymous document believed to have been written in North Africa around 243 CE, placed Jesus birth on March 28. Clement, a bishop of Alexandria (d. ca. 215 CE), thought Jesus was born on November 18. Based on historical records, Fitzmyer guesses that Jesus birth occurred on September 11, 3 BCE.
How Did Christmas Come to Be Celebrated on December 25?

A. Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.” Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival’s conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.

B. The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season).

C. In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2]

D. The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus’ birthday.

E. Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.” The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.

F. The Reverend Increase Mather of Boston observed in 1687 that “the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens’ Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian ones.”[3] Because of its known pagan origin, Christmas was banned by the Puritans and its observance was illegal in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681.[4] However, Christmas was and still is celebrated by most Christians.

G. Some of the most depraved customs of the Saturnalia carnival were intentionally revived by the Catholic Church in 1466 when Pope Paul II, for the amusement of his Roman citizens, forced Jews to race naked through the streets of the city. An eyewitness account reports, “Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them and at the same time more amusing for spectators. They ran… amid Rome’s taunting shrieks and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily.”[5]

H. As part of the Saturnalia carnival throughout the 18th and 19th centuries CE, rabbis of the ghetto in Rome were forced to wear clownish outfits and march through the city streets to the jeers of the crowd, pelted by a variety of missiles. When the Jewish community of Rome sent a petition in1836 to Pope Gregory XVI begging him to stop the annual Saturnalia abuse of the Jewish community, he responded, “It is not opportune to make any innovation.”[6] On December 25, 1881, Christian leaders whipped the Polish masses into Antisemitic frenzies that led to riots across the country. In Warsaw 12 Jews were brutally murdered, huge numbers maimed, and many Jewish women were raped. Two million rubles worth of property was destroyed.
The Origin of Santa Claus

a. Nicholas was born in Parara, Turkey in 270 CE and later became Bishop of Myra. He died in 345 CE on December 6th. He was only named a saint in the 19th century.

b. Nicholas was among the most senior bishops who convened the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE and created the New Testament. The text they produced portrayed Jews as “the children of the devil”[11] who sentenced Jesus to death.

c. In 1087, a group of sailors who idolized Nicholas moved his bones from Turkey to a sanctuary in Bari, Italy. There Nicholas supplanted a female boon-giving deity called The Grandmother, or Pasqua Epiphania, who used to fill the children's stockings with her gifts. The Grandmother was ousted from her shrine at Bari, which became the center of the Nicholas cult. Members of this group gave each other gifts during a pageant they conducted annually on the anniversary of Nicholas’ death, December 6.

d. The Nicholas cult spread north until it was adopted by German and Celtic pagans. These groups worshipped a pantheon led by Woden –their chief god and the father of Thor, Balder, and Tiw. Woden had a long, white beard and rode a horse through the heavens one evening each Autumn. When Nicholas merged with Woden, he shed his Mediterranean appearance, grew a beard, mounted a flying horse, rescheduled his flight for December, and donned heavy winter clothing.

e. In a bid for pagan adherents in Northern Europe, the Catholic Church adopted the Nicholas cult and taught that he did (and they should) distribute gifts on December 25th instead of December 6th.

f. In 1809, the novelist Washington Irving (most famous his The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and Rip Van Winkle) wrote a satire of Dutch culture entitled Knickerbocker History. The satire refers several times to the white bearded, flying-horse riding Saint Nicholas using his Dutch name, Santa Claus.

g. Dr. Clement Moore, a professor at Union Seminary, read Knickerbocker History, and in 1822 he published a poem based on the character Santa Claus: “Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the house, not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse. The stockings were hung by the chimney with care, in the hope that Saint Nicholas soon would be there…” Moore innovated by portraying a Santa with eight reindeer who descended through chimneys.

h. The Bavarian illustrator Thomas Nast almost completed the modern picture of Santa Claus. From 1862 through 1886, based on Moore’s poem, Nast drew more than 2,200 cartoon images of Santa for Harper’s Weekly. Before Nast, Saint Nicholas had been pictured as everything from a stern looking bishop to a gnome-like figure in a frock. Nast also gave Santa a home at the North Pole, his workshop filled with elves, and his list of the good and bad children of the world. All Santa was missing was his red outfit.

i. In 1931, the Coca Cola Corporation contracted the Swedish commercial artist Haddon Sundblom to create a coke-drinking Santa. Sundblom modeled his Santa on his friend Lou Prentice, chosen for his cheerful, chubby face. The corporation insisted that Santa’s fur-trimmed suit be bright, Coca Cola red. And Santa was born – a blend of Christian crusader, pagan god, and commercial idol.
and on and on...

have a nice day!:D

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vita...eRealStory.htm
Reply

Veritas
01-02-2013, 03:05 PM
I'm not American ... thank God. :D ... and Christmas in the non-American world hasn't been so appallingly prostituted as it has been there.

Christmas Day is the celebration of the birth of Christ. Like it it lump it. :D

Given your post, I'm assuming your quite young.

Have a nice day too.

God bless.
Reply

Darth Ultor
01-02-2013, 03:15 PM
I can understand not celebrating it but what's wrong with acknowledging it like saying "Merry Christmas" to passersby in the street?
Reply

YusufNoor
01-02-2013, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by Veritas
I'm not American ... thank God. :D ... and Christmas in the non-American world hasn't been so appallingly prostituted as it has been there.

Thanks for exposing yourself as a closed minded troll ... nice!

Christmas Day is the celebration of the birth of Christ. Like it it lump it. :D

Given your post, I'm assuming your quite young.

Have a nice day too.

God bless.
i'm 54. by the way. old enough to have researched the Christmas origins for decades.

you mention trolling, well is "Like it or lump it" your idea of scholarly research?

pick any 3 of the items below and do a little homework. you know how to use a search engine, i presume? it isn't difficult, just type "pagan origins of Christmas" into ANY search engine of your choice. it should only take a little time.

1) a Biblical reference to Santa Claus

2) a Biblical reference to decorating a Christmas tree

3) a Biblical reference to the use of mistletoe

4) a Biblical reference to Jesus being born on Dec 25th

5) ANY verified historical reference to Jesus being born on the 25th

6) a Biblical reference to Jesus celebrating Christmas

7) a Biblical reference to any Apostle celebrating Christmas

8) the first date in history that you are aware of that Christians celebrated Christmas

9) the date that the Catholic Church adopted Christmas as a holiday

10) any historical research that you've done on the subject

11) the day and year you believe Jesus was born

ta ta!
Reply

Hussein.B
01-02-2013, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by Darth Ultor
I can understand not celebrating it but what's wrong with acknowledging it like saying "Merry Christmas" to passersby in the street?







because by saying "Merry Christmas" you are acknowledging that isa (AS) (jesus christ) was born on Christmas and is the son of god, which is a form of shirk. Muslims should not say Merry Christmas or partake in any forms of Christmas.

In Sha Allah that answers your question.
Reply

Insaanah
01-02-2013, 04:01 PM
Since this thread has now degenerated into insults, with points made being ignored or not addressed, I'm closing it. There have been ample posts, short and long, on why Muslims do not celebrate Christmas or get involved in it.
Reply

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