Christian and Muslims perspective of God

[Indian Bro]

As-salamu alaykum,

I have a question for Christian users of this forum. While discussing with a Christian on another board, I understood that, Christians call God the "Holy Father", this means they have a sort of "Father-son" bond with God, according to Christians. This doesn't mean that Christians are the "sons of God" but merely means they are something like the adopted children of God. And through this they share a relationship with God similar like a child shares with a Father, except this particular Father is divine.

If what I've stated stands correct, then this gives Christians reasons to boast (and they have) that they have a "better" relationship with God than we Muslims do considering we Muslims call ourselves the slaves of God. According to Christians, the "Child-Father" (Christian) relationship is a more bonding and closer relationship than the "Slave-Master" (Islamic) relationship.

Now my question to the Christians is, who is more likely to be obedient - A son to a father or a slave to a master? Obviously, you'd say the slave would be more obedient to the master than a son would be towards his father. The reason is - If the son disobeys the father, the father MAY or MAY NOT punish the child even if the child doesn't ask for forgiveness, however, the master WILL punish the slave unless the slave asks for forgiveness. So we can conclude that Muslims will be more obedient to God than Christians.

To me, it makes no sense that someone who disobeys God and gets away without being punished as disobeying God is the highest form of disobedience anyone can imagine. If God orders you to do something you do it instantly without thinking twice.

On a side note, I understand that being a slave to anything on Earth may seem degrading and I agree with that, however, this idea isn't parallel to being a slave of God. You cannot compare being a slave of a human to being a slave of God. Those who see being a slave of God as degrading have no idea who God really is. People fail to understand that God loves his slaves way, way, way, way more than a mother loves her child, and that we Muslims love God, our master, more than ANYONE or ANYTHING imaginable or thinkable. How is this degrading at all?

Please note, this is just my view and opinion!

And Allah Almighty knows best.

Salam 3laikum.

[May Ayob]

I obey my master because I'm afraid (if I had one).I obey my father because I love him and trust him.Which is better?. Punishment doesn't always succeed in giving dawah to non muslims and a christian might tell you just that-they believe in Jesus or Trinity because of their love and not fear- so in the end you'll find yourself between a rock and a hard place.Good question though I hope they give you better answers.Just thought I would give my opinion.

Wa'ailaikum alsalam.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Indian Bro;

God said to the Jews, I will be your God and you will be my people, it seems there is much we shall never understand about God, but we may be able to learn a little from each other.

In the spirit of searching for 'One God'

Blessings

Eric

[ardianto]

@ Indian Bro

Assalamu'alaikum.

Christians and Muslims recognize two kinds of relationship
First: Human-God relationship (called Habluminallah in Islam)
Second: Human-human relationship (called Habluminanas in Islam).

Yes, Christians call God as "Holly Father", and yes, Muslims call themselves as "servant of Allah". So, which better in obedience? son to father? or servant to master?.

Brother, if Christians call God as "Holly Father", this is in context of "Human-God relationship", not in context of "Human-human relationship". If Muslims call themselves as "servant of Allah", this is in context of "Human-God relationship" too, not in context of "Human-human relationship". You cannot review the "Human-God relationship" with perspective of "Human-human relationship".

Every Muslim and every Christian have different level of obedience. Who is more obey is depend on his/her level of obedience, not depend on what is his/her religion.

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[Indian Bro]

@ Indian Bro

Assalamu'alaikum.

Christians and Muslims recognize two kinds of relationship
First: Human-God relationship (called Habluminallah in Islam)
Second: Human-human relationship (called Habluminanas in Islam).

Yes, Christians call God as "Holly Father", and yes, Muslims call themselves as "servant of Allah". So, which better in obedience? son to father? or servant to master?.

Brother, if Christians call God as "Holly Father", this is in context of "Human-God relationship", not in context of "Human-human relationship". If Muslims call themselves as "servant of Allah", this is in context of "Human-God relationship" too, not in context of "Human-human relationship". You cannot review the "Human-God relationship" with perspective of "Human-human relationship".

Every Muslim and every Christian have different level of obedience. Who is more obey is depend on his/her level of obedience, not depend on what is his/her religion.

As-salamu alaykum brother,

I am not here to spark a debate between who is more obedient or more loving, I just wanted to point out that "being a slave" of Allah (s.w.t.) is not something degrading as many Christians and non-Muslims point out. I never said Christians do not share a "God-Human" relationship with God, I just wanted to point out that many Christians and other non-Muslims claim it is degrading to be called a "Slave of God", and to support this statement they speak of their "Human-Human" relationship with God. This was all I wanted to point out. I hope it clears any misunderstandings. And I apologize for not constructing my view clear enough for you.

Salam 3laikum

[Amigo]

...Actually a father works harder on his son than a master on his slave...

From a Christian perspective, there is what someone is by nature, and what someone is by what he does.
Sonship is in referance to what God meant us to be when he created us. God does not need anything, so he does not create out of need but out of love.
God did not create us for what we can do, but for what we would become: sharers/adopted in his blessdeness a.k.a sons.
Obedience is important to keep our sonship 'good', but it should be within love which is the most important and the measure of our beatitude.
without love, obedience can be corrupt and then mean nothing, but with love, obedience is guaranteed to please and bless.

[Tyrion]

Now my question to the Christians is, who is more likely to be obedient - A son to a father or a slave to a master? Obviously, you'd say the slave would be more obedient to the master than a son would be towards his father. The reason is - If the son disobeys the father, the father MAY or MAY NOT punish the child even if the child doesn't ask for forgiveness, however, the master WILL punish the slave unless the slave asks for forgiveness. So we can conclude that Muslims will be more obedient to God than Christians.

What point are you trying to make with this paragraph? From what you've written here, I think most people would prefer the father figure over the slave master who refuses to forgive unless we beg. Also, you seem to place obedience based on fear on a much higher level than obedience based on respect and/or love. I don't see this as a very effective way of getting any possible point you're trying to make across to someone.

Also, the conclusion you seem to reach from this (that Muslims will be more obedient) doesn't seem to be true. Humans are humans, it doesn't matter if they're Muslim or Christian. Don't fool yourself into thinking we're better at obeying God just because the way we view our relationship with the divine is different.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

If we look on God as our Father, this makes all of us brothers and sisters. I believe that Mathew 25 gives us a very challenging aspect of Father - son relationship

Mathew 25
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

[Indian Bro]

What point are you trying to make with this paragraph? From what you've written here, I think most people would prefer the father figure over the slave master who refuses to forgive unless we beg. Also, you seem to place obedience based on fear on a much higher level than obedience based on respect and/or love. I don't see this as a very effective way of getting any possible point you're trying to make across to someone.

Also, the conclusion you seem to reach from this (that Muslims will be more obedient) doesn't seem to be true. Humans are humans, it doesn't matter if they're Muslim or Christian. Don't fool yourself into thinking we're better at obeying God just because the way we view our relationship with the divine is different.

As-salamu alaykum,

I think you have misunderstood the point I was making just like others in this thread. I was implying that the master-slave relationship IS NOT degrading, like how many people especially Christians suggest because Muslims don't share a "human-human" relationship with God because God is NOT a human. And I never said we are more obedient to God because we fear Him more than we love Him, I don't know why you're putting words in my mouth. In fact I mentioned how, according to Islam, God loves us way more than a mother lovers her own child, and we all know that generally mothers love their children more than the fathers do. I was making a point that Muslims will be more likely to obey God than Christians will, and fear was one of the reasons. I don't think Christians fear God as much as Muslims do, maybe I'm wrong about this but it's just my opinion.

The only people that will prefer the "Father-son" relationship over "Master-slave" are those that think God is a human. Everything God creates worships Him and submits to His will, I never in this thread implied that fear is the reason, but it is ONE of the reasons.

[Indian Bro]

...Actually a father works harder on his son than a master on his slave...

Agree, but again, you're using the "Human-Human" relationship, something Islam doesn't APPROVE!

From a Christian perspective, there is what someone is by nature, and what someone is by what he does.
Sonship is in referance to what God meant us to be when he created us. God does not need anything, so he does not create out of need but out of love.
God did not create us for what we can do, but for what we would become: sharers/adopted in his blessdeness a.k.a sons.
Obedience is important to keep our sonship 'good', but it should be within love which is the most important and the measure of our beatitude.
without love, obedience can be corrupt and then mean nothing, but with love, obedience is guaranteed to please and bless.

Again, I agree that without love obedience can be corrupt and meaningless, but I never said you shouldn't love God. However, whom will you expect to obey God more:

A) A person who loves God a lot but doesn't fear God so much

B) A person who loves God a lot as well as fears God a lot.

[Hulk]

If you love God, then you should do your best to obey the laws He has given you.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Indian Bro;

Again, I agree that without love obedience can be corrupt and meaningless, but I never said you shouldn't love God. However, whom will you expect to obey God more:

A) A person who loves God a lot but doesn't fear God so much

B) A person who loves God a lot as well as fears God a lot

I think we have much to learn from each other, the following passeges link Wisdom and the fear of God.


1.Job 28:28
And he said to the human race, ‘The fear of the Lord – that is wisdom, and to shun evil is understanding.’

2.Psalm 111:10
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.

3.Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

4.Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

5.Proverbs 15:33
Wisdom’s instruction is to fear the Lord, and humility comes before honour.

7.Isaiah 33:6
He will be the sure foundation for your times, a rich store of salvation and wisdom and knowledge; the fear of the Lord is the key to this treasure.

8.Micah 6:9
Listen! The Lord is calling to the city – and to fear your name is wisdom – ‘Heed the rod and the One who appointed it.


In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[Insaanah]

:sl:

I think this stems from deep beliefs. Roughly paraphrased, Christians believe that Allah sent His only son into the world to atone for mankind's sins and that they should accept him as saviour. Once they do, they believe that works must accompany faith, and that the good deeds they do are in joyful thanks for that gift of atonement. They also believe that Jesus :as: fulfilled the law, so that they don't have to follow all the rules and commands that the Jews did, and the two most important commands are to love God and love your neighbour. This is why Christians appear to us to fear God less and to rather to have an emphasis on love and joy and a general doing of good rather than obeying specific commandments and rules. They believe in following the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law, whereas we follow a balance, and have a middle balance of obeying commands and loving.

As Muslims, we do good deeds, and hope for Allahs mercy, and we have a balance of love, hope and fear. Our exam is to come, and we don't know our outcome until the day of judgement, so we have hope, we fear Allah's punishment, and love God. Christians, while their scriptures do mention fearing God, the emphasis seems to be on love and joy and thanks for Jesus atoning for their sins. They still believe they'll be judged, but still the fear element doesn't appear to be as great. They see their relationship as being a father child relationship, and that we are all the children of God, and that a father loves his child even if really angry with him.

So this stems from the very foundations of our respective beliefs.

This might vary among Christian denominations and I'd appreciate correction if I've got it wrong.

[ccc]

i will translate in three or four parts a christian article about this subject, because i hope it will offer you a good perspective. Translate is much to say, because i do not speak english very good.<br>" I am thinking to tell you some words about fear God because it is "the beginning of the wisdom". But I am really afraid that we don't understand too much what is the fear of god. I mean, we should be afraid of God if we make something bad, and, because of the punishment's fear, we should not do one or another thing? But in this case, if we are afraid of God in this manner, how can we speak that we believe in a God of love, and where is the love if we are afraid of God as we are afraid of a bad dog?<br>But in this case what the fear of God can be? I once met a very good soul who, in order to defend against the bad things and sins, hanged an icon in his room, or better said a picture representing The Last Judgement and, more important, the pains of hell. And he hoped that, when bad thoughts will attack him, he will look at the pains of hell to become afraid and to have in this way a little help in order to drive them away."

[Muhaba]

linguistically, the muslim perspective is correct because God doesn't have children (God doesn't reproduce). human beings have children naturally so it's natural also for them to say "this is my adopted child" although the adopted child can never be like the real child. on the other hand, it's stupid to say about two rocks:"this rock is this other rock's adopted child." because rocks don't reproduce.
Another thing is that a person adopts someone like themselves. a person doesn't adopt a cat for instance. God doesn't reproduce. God has no need for an offspring. And humankind are greatly different from God. God is unique and is the Creater and Master of all while humans are a weak perishible creation.

Why do people have children and why do they have the need to adopt if they have no children of their own? It is because of their need to have children and also because they need a heir, someone to keep their progeny going. God has no such weaknesses and has no such needs.

In the Quran it has been clearly stated that God has no need for an offspring, real or adopted while the human being's need for an offspring is shown. In Surah Maryam, it is said about Prophet Zakariah (AS): And indeed, I fear the successors after me, and my wife has been barren, so give me from Yourself an heir. Who will inherit me and inherit from the family of Jacob. And make him, my Lord, pleasing [to You]."
(19:5-6)

While about God it is stated:

And it is not appropriate for the Most Merciful that He should take a son.
There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant. (19: 92-93)

God is so Great that to associate a lowly creation as a child of God is an insult - and God is high above such associations. God has stated at various places in the Quran, do you make your slaves your equals? Consider a human king and is servants and workers. Can the servants and workers ever get the courage to utter such words as "we are children of this king." I wouldn't doubt that many kings would've had such servants beheaded!

Then how can you make the creation children of the Lord and Master of the Worlds?

It is obvious that the correct relationship with God is of the servant/slave and Master relationship. We are God's servants and must do whatever He has Commanded. Our life must be lived with His Commands. We can have no say of our own when He has ordered something else.

That doesn't describe a father child relationship at all. a child doesn't have to do everything that the father orders. the child has a life of his/her own and at times he/she will not be able to do what the father wants, nor will the father's dictates be always appropriate. But God - the Master - must always be obeyed, even if we end up suffering. For example, you get a job that your father doesn't like. You can say, "Dad i need this job," and take the job though your father wanted otherwise. But that isn't what a slave can say to his master. supposing the slave has something important to do but the master wants him to go somewhere else, there is no way the slave can disobey the master. So, too, God's commands cannot be disobeyed. for example you're jobless and have been offered a job in a bank with interest, you can't say "God, I need this job" and take the job. No matter what, you have to obey God's orders and not take that job.

So, all the above shows that the correct description of the relationship between mankind and God is the slave/servant and Master relationship.

[Karl]

I think you are looking too deep into this Holy Father consept. It came out of very ancient paganism (stone age cultures) which was a universal consept worldwide. The Sky Father and Earth Mother Gods. Without the rain from the sky (the seed of the Sky Father) the earth is barren the same as a woman without a man cannot have a child, really basic science this. Some people worshipped the mother, some looked up and worshiped the father. So over time the Sky Father became the Holy Father. The concept of father is also the protector and provider which can be attributed to Allah too.
I think it has no purpose to cause animosity towards other theists, especially when we have the Anti Christ breathing down our necks. Evil is strong when the good are divided.

[Independent]

Although I'm no longer a Christian I am interested in what's being said here. In particular, I have noticed that the things that seem to bother most Muslims about Christianity - such as the Trinity, the Resurrection, the exact relationship of Jesus to God, ideas like atonement and sacrifice - are none of things that bothered me. And none of them were the reason for my leaving the faith.

This might vary among Christian denominations and I'd appreciate correction if I've got it wrong.

I agree with a lot of what you say but with some important differences.

They also believe that Jesus fulfilled the law, so that they don't have to follow all the rules and commands that the Jews did,

I think it's true that Christians are much more likely not to feel the need to follow every last rule - but not at all for the reason you give. I never thought that Jesus had done the job for me, so to speak. What i did feel was (and still feel) that so long as we are fundamentally good people and we at least try to do the right thing, that would be enough.

I do feel a strong reaction against the notion that rules about wearing beards or liking music - which have no apparent connection with morality - should have anything whatsoever to do with being a good person. (I understand that you believe these rules to be God-given, but if you're not brought up that way they all seem completely random. I don't mean to be offensive, it's my instinctive reaction.)

They believe in following the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law, whereas we follow a balance, and have a middle balance of obeying commands and loving.

Yes to the first bit, no to the second. In comparison to Christianity, I see the most terrific emphasis on the letter of the law in Islam. The Muslims who take a broader view, get told they're not really Muslims. You can say that's the way it has to be - you can say that Allah knows best and it's not for us to question - but I don't see how you can describe it as a 'balanced' or 'middle ground'. These aren't the right words.

Christians, while their scriptures do mention fearing God, the emphasis seems to be on love and joy

Yes. To the extent that, when i started reading about Allah, I have found him to be an entirely alien personality from the Christian God.

They see their relationship as being a father child relationship, and that we are all the children of God, and that a father loves his child even if really angry with him.

This 'father-son' thing that so bothers Indian Bro and WRITER - I don't understand this problem at all! (And I disagree with Christianity in many other things.)

I have always taken this to be metaphorical. In Catholicism for instance, the priest is always known as 'Father'. Does this mean people are confused about the relationship? Of course not. It's a metaphor! Yes, the word does express a different emphasis on the relationship with God (more love, less authoritarian) but nothing remotely biological.

Christians believe that Allah sent His only son into the world to atone for mankind's sins and that they should accept him as saviour

To me, the most radical thing about Jesus is the act of empathy. The idea that God, or an aspect of God, could in some fashion choose to experience suffering and mortality with us. As far as I'm aware this is unique. It challenged people greatly at the time so greatly that it led to breakaway sects.

When you lay that alongside other key ideas from Jesus - such as 'Turn the other cheek' - 'Render under Caesar what is Caesar's' - 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do' - I continue to find Jesus the single most dramatic and revolutionary philosopher in all history. (You don't have to be religious to admire him as a philosopher.)

If I posed myself the challenge, how could I write something that would sound like God might have said it, this would be a pretty good start.

I make these observations in an entirely undoctrinal way but simply as a comment on the way I personally experienced Christianity.

[Muslim sister.]

its crazy how some ''muslims'' dont fully grasp the attributes of God and thus interpret God wrongly. the truth is God wants us to Worship Him with sincere Love, and under this strong Love a believer becomes tendant towards what pleases God and avoids associating in anything that would alter this bound they have with God, that is so special and sacred in the hearrt. its not just mere feaar because that would be dishonest. now if there is ateacher who is strict and tough, you would expect the students to 'obey' that teacher and co operate because they fear the outcomes of not complying, however deeep down inside they cant stand that teacher, thus their deeds are vain and fruitless and superficial not geniune and profound as they ought to be. But when it comes to The Most Compassionate teacher, the students obey her with great love and respect, they feel servitude is an honor when it comes to complying, and this is what makes the deeds fruitful and valuable, because of this valuable intention towards God, and would make a believer fear to disobey that teacher so as not to alter or affect this special relationship and bound, this is true faith, know the attributes of God and grasp them fully, because your prespective of God will change your prespective on life. please read tbe Quran with insight and quest Allah to enlighten yourheartsith true sincere genuine faith. ameen

[IAmZamzam]

Independent, I just don't think you get it. There are different types of love and even with all the fancy talk people make about all those "nuances" the ancient Greeks had with their three or four words they didn't find enough for the different varieties either. Imagine how heartbroken a child is, or even a tenderhearted adult, upon seeing their pet of so many years, whom they've raised from birth, get run over. Now imagine how you would feel if the next day you heard someone say, "What is it with people and their pets? Always 'fetch' this, 'roll over' that. Nothing like it is with their sons. So different with human families. It really should be more love, less authoritaritianism." Some differences in relationships are the natural result of the inevitable differences in who and what you are.

[GodIsAll]

Interesting thread!

All people should do Allah's will, always. If we coin the term "slave" to that, so be it. Those who do His will have nothing to fear.

We are given the free will to do God's will. We are given the free will not to return His love, for love without free will is not love at all.

[Abu Loren]

If we coin the term "slave" to that, so be it

In Islam a slave of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala is somebody who has surrendered his being to God. Like fully 100%.

[GodIsAll]

Yes, I understand. The terms are new, but I understand the concept.
Question: Is the choice to surrender one's being wholly to God a voluntary choice?

[Abu Loren]

Question: Is the choice to surrender one's being wholly to God a voluntary choice?

Are you an atheist?

Muslims do not believe that God Almighty is a curly white haired grandfather typer person sitting in the clouds like the Christian do. Muslims fear and revere Him. As He has created everything including us, we believe that we can best understand Him if we adopt a master/slave relationship, which is true as he has moulded us out of clay. This submissiveness is voluntary because you can choose not to worship Him as He has given us free will.

[GodIsAll]

I am not an atheist by any means.

I am trying to understand all perspectives respectfully. My point may be possibly in the translation of the word "slave". You mention that this choice to do serve God wholly is a voluntary decision. I concur. "Slavery" is most often perceived as a forced issue to which the slave has no choice.

Anyway...it is a moot point. Doing God's will in every moment is what matters most.


I have to agree with you that I am not a big fan of the "Old Man in the Sky" perception either. Then again, with Him, all is possible. Our Creator could choose to be seen in this manner if He so willed. I don't know, I am but a human.

[Hulk]

I find it interesting that some people have a problem with the term "slave" being used. If the word was substituted as "servant" I'm sure more people would be more "open" to it. Perhaps it is our ego that bothers us, giving us the impression that we could never "stoop that low" to the point of our very existence being the property of another. I believe if people understood more about who they are and who God is, they would certainly realise that indeed they are nothing without God. We are totally dependent upon God. We are not self-sustaining. We need to breathe, eat, go to the toilet, these are things that are most obvious to us that we are self-sustaining. Then there are the needs that we don't even realise we need; our bodily function which we have no control of yet work as intended. Our liver, heart, blood, etc.

Many of us take these things for granted but if we were to reflect upon them it is clear that without God we are nothing. Yet, somehow we have an issue with being a slave of God? Are we so foolishly arrogant that we don't think we are that low enough that we could belong to God? Reflect on how dependent on God and then think of how we as His creation return His favours.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Hulk;

I find it interesting that some people have a problem with the term "slave" being used.

Would it help to say that you willingly choose to be a slave to Allah, in order to obey and bring glory to his name.

Blessings

Eric

[IAmZamzam]

I have to agree with you that I am not a big fan of the "Old Man in the Sky" perception either. Then again, with Him, all is possible. Our Creator could choose to be seen in this manner if He so willed. I don't know, I am but a human.

Dr. Andrew Newberg at the University of Pennysylvania did a study with a mixed group in which he asked everyone to draw their conception of The Deity. He found that the two groups likeliest to make a picture of an old man sitting on a cloud or something of that sort were children and adult atheists. Grown-up believers tended to make crude abstract art which resembled nothing in particular. Images of imagelessness. (It reminds me of that quotation in the opening of "The Screwtape Letters", that Dionysius the Elder said way back in the fifth century before the common era that only fools suppose spirits to actually be winged men.) I keep telling myself that the suspicion creeping up on me more and more as time goes by--that antireligion and antitheism are caused by immaturity--is the product of weariness or stereotype, but the evidence of my experience just keeps mounting up and it disturbs me. When was the last time you ever heard anyone not tell you that they stopped believing before they were, say, in their mid-twenties or so--assuming that they believed to begin with? Whereas people turn to religion at any age but are infamous for doing so when they get older. I'm trying to fight it, but I'm not succeeding.

[Abu Loren]

Would it help to say that you willingly choose to be a slave to Allah, in order to obey and bring glory to his name.

G'day Eric

It is Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala Himself who calls the believers His slaves. Throughout the Holy Qur'an He addresses the believers and His messengers and prophets as slaves. One example is

Muhsin Khan

How bad is thatfor which they have sold their ownselves, that they should disbelieve in thatwhich Allah has revealed (the Quran), grudging that Allah should reveal of HisGrace unto whom He will of His slaves. So they have drawn on themselves wrathupon wrath. And for the disbelievers, there is disgracing torment. 2:90

[جوري]

linguistically, the muslim perspective is correct because God doesn't have children (God doesn't reproduce).

I think I actually know where the Christians get their 'children of God' perspective from.
As there's indeed a hadith that states:
( كلكم عيال الله وأحبكم إلى الله أنفعكم لعياله

many will misconstrue عيال to denote 'children' where in fact it means dependents. People don't know the etymology of the word many times and they'll misunderstand and this is in the original tongue so it is natural Christians will evolve the words to mean whatever they want it to when they're not even working with the original tongue of Isa :saws: which is Aramaic.

:w:

[GodIsAll]

Agreed. Referring to ourselves as Allah's "creations" is more accurate than "children".

I, for one, am awed and humbled.

[GodIsAll]

Well said, Eric...as usual.

Hulkster: I have no personal issue with the term "slave". Merely pointing out how it could be misinterpreted by some.

(I am proud and at peace serving no other)

[Hulk]

Would it help to say that you willingly choose to be a slave to Allah, in order to obey and bring glory to his name.

Blessings

Eric

Greetings Mr Eric H and peace be with u too.

I find it unnecessary to add to it especially to point out that it is to "willingly" be a slave. As if the power is in our hands whether we want to submit to the will of God or not. While we do have free choice, the correct choice is clear.

To someone whose worldview is limited to this world then the term slave would certainly be uncomfortable to him. If we are to think about it, we are all "slaves" to something. Think about those people who talk about "freedom". The "freedom" to do whatever they want.

What it really means is to have the "freedom" to be a "slave" to their own "desires". One only needs to look at what is in "trend" to understand that this is not true "freedom". So people will always be a slave, the question is do you want to be a slave to your own desires or a slave to God? The better choice is obvious.

One who has submitted himself to God would then be able to free himself from being the slave of his lower desires(through striving). That is then true freedom.

If someone I talk to doesn't understand it then I will try to explain it to them the best I can do with my own shallow understanding InshaAllah..

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Superhero Hulk;

the question is do you want to be a slave to your own desires or a slave to God? The better choice is obvious.

Thanks for your explanation, the Bible has the same kind of meaning, you cannot serve two masters.

Blessings

Eric

[ardianto]

In Indonesia, Muslims do not call themselves as "budak Allah" that literally means "slave of Allah", but "hamba Allah". There is difference between "budak" and "hamba". "Budak" is someone who is forced to serve and oppressed by his master. While "hamba" is someone who serve his master but not under oppression by his master.

I'm not native English speaker, but I think maybe "servant of Allah" is more accurate to describe relationship between Allah and His creation.

[Hulk]

Sorry Mr GodIsAll I missed your post. I was saying in general and not referring to you specifically but I'm sure you got that :)

Yes Mr Eric H you're right.

In Indonesia, Muslims do not call themselves as "budak Allah" that literally means "slave of Allah", but "hamba Allah". There is difference between "budak" and "hamba". "Budak" is someone who is forced to serve and oppressed by his master. While "hamba" is someone who serve his master but not under oppression by his master.

I'm not native English speaker, but I think maybe "servant of Allah" is more accurate to describe relationship between Allah and His creation.

I find that interesting Br Ardianto as I understand that in another language "Budak" can mean "Child". From that, I recall reading somewhere about how the word translated as "Son" in the Bible(referring to Jesus pbuh) has also been translated as "servant" and sometimes "child" in other instances.

In terms of whether "slave" or "servant" is more accurate, I leave it to the knowlegable ones. What I am sure of is Abdullah :)

[ardianto]

in another language "Budak" can mean "Child". From that

That's in Malaysian Melayu. But in Bahasa Indonesia, "budak" means "slave" in slavery. :)

[Muslim sister.]

Bism Allah AlRahman AlRaheem.

Nevertheless, we believe that Allah is more merciful to His servants/slaves/creatures than a mother is o her child. Lets not forget that, it's the very reason why we submitt to His will, its because of that Love, its what captivates us in submission, serving, and surrendering to Him, Ameen

[ccc]

A Christian understanding of God from the IV century, belonging to the Saint Gregory of Nyssa (one of the only three Christian saints which were given the name of the "theologian"):
God always was and is and will be, or rather always “is,” for “was” and “will be” belong to our divided time and transitory nature; but he is always “he who is,” and he gave himself this name when he consulted with Moses on the mountain. For holding everything together in himself, he possesses being, neither beginning nor ending. He is like a kind of boundless and limitless sea of being, surpassing all thought and time and nature. He is only sketched by the mind, and this in a very indistinct and mediocre way, not from things pertaining to himself but from things around him. Impressions are gathered from here and there into one particular representation of the truth, which flees before it is grasped and escapes before it is understood. It illumines the directive faculty in us, when indeed we have been purified, and its appearance is like a swift bolt of lightning that does not remain. It seems to me that insofar as it is graspable, the divine draws [us] toward itself, for what is completely ungraspable is unhoped for and unsought. Yet one wonders at the ungraspable, and one desires more intensely the object of wonder, and being desired it purifies, and purifying it makes deiform, and with those who have become such he converses as with those close to him,—I speak with vehement boldness—God is united with gods, and he is thus known, perhaps as much as he already knows those who are known to him. (38.7)


It was the Word of God himself, the one who is before the ages, the invisible, the ungraspable, the incorporeal, the Principle from the Principle, the light from the light, the source of life and immortality, the imprint of the archetypal beauty, the immutable seal, the undistorted image, the definition and explanation of the Father. He approaches his own image and bears flesh because of my flesh and mingles himself with a rational soul because of my soul, purifying like by like. And in all things he becomes a human being, except sin. He was conceived by the Virgin, who was purified beforehand in both soul and flesh by the Spirit, for it was necessary that procreation be honored and that virginity be honored more. He comes forth, God with what he has assumed, one from two opposites, flesh and spirit, the one deifying and the other deified. O new mixture! O the paradoxical blending! He who is comes into being, and the uncreated is created, and the uncontained is contained, through the intervention of the rational soul, which mediates between the divinity and the coarseness of flesh. The one who enriches becomes poor; he is made poor in my flesh, that I might be enriched through his divinity. The full one empties himself; for he empties himself of his own glory for a short time, that I may participate in his fullness. What is the wealth of his goodness? What is this mystery concerning me? I participated in the [divine] image, and I did not keep it; he participates in my flesh both to save the image and to make the flesh immortal. He shares with us a second communion, much more paradoxical than the first; then he gave us a share in what is superior, now he shares in what is inferior. This is more godlike than the first; this, to those who can understand, is more exalted. (38.13)

(Oration 38)

[Hulk]

God would not create us to be his slaves. There would be no point in doing that and he could have just made us robots if he wanted that. He made us human and gave us the ability to accept or reject him so that he could have a sincere relationship built upon mutual love. A relationship based upon fear isn't a good relationship.

You are not afraid of God?

[MustafaMc]

God would not create us to be his slaves. There would be no point in doing that and he could have just made us robots if he wanted that. He made us human and gave us the ability to accept or reject him so that he could have a sincere relationship built upon mutual love.

You don't seem to understand the Islamic concept of man's relationship to God. We do have the will to either believe or disbelieve in His existences and we are free to accept or reject the guidance that He provides in revelations through His prophets and messengers including Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them). We were not created without the will to either obey or disobey and to either submit to His will or to remain obstinately defiant. The concept of servant of Allah is one of willing and not coerced service to Him and to our fellow human brothers and sisters. I remind you of the example of humility and servitude that Jesus provided in washing the disciples feet. I also remind you of Matthew 7:21 where Jesus is quoted as having said, {“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.} The basic premise of Islam is to have proper beliefs about God and to follow the example of Muhammad (saaws) who conveyed God's will for how people should live their lives.

A relationship based upon fear isn't a good relationship.

Our relation to Allah is a balanced one of hope in His mercy and fear of His wrath. Christians are quick to deny they fall under the judgment of God because they have accepted Jesus as both the Son of God and God Incarnate and the rely upon the sacrifice they believe he made on the cross for their salvation. Christians have the concept of having been saved without the possibility that they will be subject to punishment in Hell despite how they might have lived their lives. I remind you that 113 of the 114 surahs of the Qur'an begin with bismillah ir'Rahmani ir'Raheem which has been translated as Most Gracious, Most Merciful and the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy. The forgiveness and mercy of God for the believer is a recurring theme of the Qur'an, but so also the punishment of the rejectors of faith in Hell. No Muslim pretends to know his fate on Judgment Day for he does not know the sincerity and purity of his own heart and he does not know the state of his faith upon his death.