PDA

View Full Version : A Covenant with Ishmael, Isaac, or both?



theplains
01-25-2013, 12:03 AM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ

Who had the covenant? Ishmael or Isaac?
According to the Quran and/or Hadiths, did God establish a covenant with Ishmael, Isaac, or both? And what
specifically did the covenant entail? Please provide sura/hadith references.

Thanks,
Jim
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
جوري
01-25-2013, 12:34 AM
I have already answered the Q for you here:
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ

Who had the covenant? Ishmael or Isaac?

The story of Abraham, Ishmael and Hagar (May the mercy and blessings of Allah be on them all) is found in the Bible, much skewed and corrupted from the pure Islamic version. The reason this is so is because the book of Genesis, undoubtedly written by some Jewish Rabbi of the past would certainly be biased in his understanding of history between the two forefathers. There would be in him, whoever he was, the desire to paint his own ancestry, that is the seed of Isaac, in the brightest of colors, whereby either purposely or inadvertently condemning the rival (I.e. Ishmael) as the negative end of the spectrum. In other words, a Jew most certainly wrote Genesis, so Isaac, the father of the Jews and Abraham’s son, is presented in this blessed light, and Ishmael, the father of the Arabs is whereby presented in somewhat dark euphemisms, and foisted on him is the subtle racism and condescending attitude of the author.
This being said, it is evident that my own assumptions are true, because of the many gaps and inconsistencies which are clues left to us by the True and Almighty God in the Biblical account, which point us in the direction of the truth (I.E. of the Islamic version.)

1. Abraham (saas) was told by God that a Great Nation would come from him. (Genesis 12:2-3)

2. Sarah, Abraham’s wife doesn’t bear children at first. (Genesis 16:1)

3. Sarah whereby allowed Abraham to MARRY Hagar (Genesis 16:3) -This defeats the evangelical claim that Ishmael was illegitamite. Hagar conceives Ishmael. (genesis 16:4)

4. Later Sarah has Isaac. (Genesis 21:2)

So far so good. The story here is quite clear. A Prophecy for a great nation was said to come from Abraham. After Sarah seemingly cannot conceive, Hagar becomes Abraham’s second wife and conceives Ishmael. Later Sarah actually does conceive and has Isaac.

Biblical points which hold true to the Islamic perception of Ishmael and the pure lineage of Muhammad (saas):

1. Ishmael was Abraham’s first son. (Genesis 16:4)

2. God said that Hagar’s seed would be multiplied exceedingly. (Genesis 16:10)

3. God said Ishmael was blessed! (Genesis 17:20)

4. Ishmael is clearly called ‘Abraham’s seed’ by God. (Genesis 21:13)

4. God repeats His promise to make Ishmael a great nation FIVE TIMES! (Genesis 15:4) (Genesis 16:10) (Genesis 17:20) (Genesis 21:13) (Genesis 21:18)


From here the Islamic version and the Biblical account part ways. The Muslim holds that it was in fact Ishmael who had the covenant and not Isaac, whereas the bible states the opposite. The Muslim holds that it was Ishmael who was to be sacrificed and not Isaac, and again, the Bible states the opposite. The Muslim version states that both Isaac and Ishmael were pure blameless children of Abraham, both revered, whereas in the Biblical account, Isaac is revered and Ishmael is seen as a mean-spirited outcast. Let us review the shameful and undoubtedly corrupted view of Ishmael in the Bible:

1. Ishmael is called a ‘wild donkey of a man’: (Genesis 16:12)
2. Ishmael and his descendants are going to be known as troublemakers (Genesis 16:12)
3. Ishmael is considered illegitamite (This is a Christian claim which no Bible verse supports.)
4. Ishmael makes fun of Isaac and teases him: (Genesis 21:9)
5. Ishmael and his mother are cast out from Abrahams’ family (Genesis 21:10)

Now let us lay these preposterous and slanderous claims to rest.

Ishmael a wild donkey of a man?

This is where it becomes evident that the prejudice of the author seeps through. The Christian must remember that the Islamic view of the Bible is that it is corrupted, and history attests this, especially that of the Old Testament. God himself attests this in the Old Testament, saying, "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.” (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8) -So it is admitted within the Bible itself, that the Old Testament is corrupted. No independent scholar accepts the preposterous view that the first 5 books of the Bible were written by Moses as evangelicals claim. This indeed would be quite impossible because otherwise Moses refers to himself in the third person and even writes about his own death and the month that follows it.
Therefore, if the Islamic view of the Bible is that it is corrupted (Not wrong, but not always right either) then it is very well possible, from this viewpoint that the entire story of Ishmael and Isaac is skewed, handled malisciously from the pen of some overzealous rabbi who could not ignore fully his own prejudice and wishes, but yet also could not ignore fully the facts of history, being that both Ishmael and Isaac were blessed, revered and of highly esteemed moral character. Starting from this point we can see through the authors slanders and see to the truth, and that is that this particular verse, that is the verse of Ishmael being a ‘wild donkey’ of a man is an overly obvious forgery, and opinion of whoever the mildly racist author of this book is. –And his intent is quite clear. He wants to prove that the lineage of the Jews is pure, and that no non-jew could ever partake in the pure lineage of Abraham. This is undoubtedly the authors intention, because he goes to great lengths to ‘prove’ it. Consider the ‘all-to-convenient’ verbiage of Sarah as interjected by the author: “Wherefore she said to Abraham, ‘Cast out this bondwoman and her son: For the son of a bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.’” (21:10).
As to the authors intention to show that the blood and lineage of the Jewish people is untainted, consider the fact that according to the Bible, Abraham and Sarah were brother and Sister! (Genesis 20:12.) This same author is the one who insulted the Prophet Lot by saying he had an incestuous drunken relationship with his two daughters, (Genesis 19:36) And Jacob was married to two sisters at the same time: (Genesis 29:28). The intention is clear, that the author of Genesis is either a pervert obsessed with incest, or he slanders honorable prophets with false stories of Incest in order to show that the blood of Isaac and his descendants (The Jews) is pure. It is for this reason the author feels the need to slander Ishmael and foist on him the false story of being ‘cast out’ of the family of Abraham. –It is also clearly, based on the evidence, a big lie. Ishmael was not a wild donkey of a man, but the author of Genesis sure was!

Ishmael and his descendants will ‘be against all men?’

The Bible says of Ishmael: “…his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.” (Genesis 16:12)


In recent times this is probably the most oft-repeated verse against Ishmael and the Muslims used by Christians to prove a plethora of points. All one needs to do is point to the news to see that seemingly Ishmael’s seed truly is ‘against all men’ and ‘all men are against him.’ It is, to them, proof positive that the Bible is the word of God.
But there is a problem with this theory, and that is quite simply that only recently could this be applied. It wasn’t until the decline of the Ottomon Empire in the 1700’s that the Islamic world experienced a regression leading to a downward spiral of corruption, hopelessness, and violence.
One need not point out the fact that the oldest and indeed one of the first colleges on earth was founded by Muslims and is still on the earth today (Al-Azhar.) It is evident that whilst Europe was sunk in the dark ages, the civilized Muslims revived the learning of Aristotle and Plato, who otherwise would have been forgotten. There was a time when Baghdad, for example, was called, ‘The greatest city on earth.’ -And this title was given it by European scholars. Was it because the Arabs of Baghdad were mindless killers against all men? Of course not! It was because they were civilized learners who enjoyed a thriving economy! In fact, it was the Muslims who saved the Christians in their lands from the conquests of invaders, and it was the Turkish Muslims who later protected the Jews who fled persecution from Spain. Was it not the Muslim Salahaddin who granted all Christians in Jerusalem amnesty despite that fact that when Muslims were run out of Jerusalem years earlier the Christians boiled Muslim children alive in pots?
So there is well over a thousand years of the Muslim empire (now known as the Golden age of Islam) in which this whimsical sentence in the Bible was utterly false, and any attempt to apply it to Muslims would be deemed laughable by even the Christians! So what is more logical? To say this verse is true, when it has only been true for the past 100 years at best, which represents not even a glimmer in the existence of Islam, or to say that this is the interjection of some ancient Jew who had, as seen above, his own wicked intentions?

Ishmael is considered illegitimite?

This one I really don’t get. The Bible clearly states that Hagar and Abraham were married. (Genesis 16:3) Abraham is also spoken of in highly respected terms in the Bible? How is it that this highly respected Prophet had a child with a woman whom he was married to, and by the logic of some evangelicals this = illigetamite?
Of course not! So how can this be deemed an instance with which to judge Ishmael and say he was therefore excluded from the covenant? Based on what we have seen so far, we need not even address the last two biblical accounts of Ishmael teasing Isaac and whereby being cast out, as this is another obvious forgery by the baised author, whoever he was.

The Bible Had Ishmael and Isaac Confused!

The most common question to be asked by the Christian then is, how can the Muslims believe that Ishmael was to be sacrificed and not Isaac, and that Ishmael got the covenant, when the Bible clearly states otherwise? Well, not to beat a dead horse, but the Muslim view of the Bible is that it is corrupted. So automatically, any story which contradicts Islamic teachings we view with skepticism. As seen already, the author of Genesis, where we find the account of Ishmael and Isaac, is also extremely baised. These facts alone are a red flag to the logical thinkers that just to accept this story as 100% authentic as it is presented in the Bible would be a great error.
With that being said, let us examine the story in the Bible again, and show that the author made some grave errors in his writing which proves that Ishmael and Isaac were confused:

The Bible states that Abraham was 99 years old when Ishmael was circumcised. Ishmael was 13 at the time. (Genesis 17:24-27)

Exactly one year later Isaac is born. (Genesis 21:4-5) So if Abraham was 99 when Ishmael was circumcised a year earlier, that would mean when Isaac is born, he is 100 years old, and Ishmael is 14.

Then comes the story of the sacrifice in the Bible: In Genesis 22, God tells Abraham to take ‘Thine ONLY son Isaac…’ -WHAT? Ishmael is 14 at the time? Why does the Bible refer to Isaac as Abrahams ONLY son? Many Christians will say that this is because God here is making it clear that Isaac is the only heir to the covenant, and that is why God refers to Isaac as ‘The ONLY son..’ but God clearly calls Ishmael the seed of Abraham according to Genesis 21:13, so such conclusions are impossible. The only conclusion is that the author of Genesis had Ishmael and Isaac confused.

Consider when Ishmael is cast out with Hagar into the desert in Genesis 21. What are the descriptions of Ishmael? Pay close attention to the following descriptions:

A. Ishmael is tucked under shrubs (Genesis 21:15)
B. He is called a ‘lad’ (Genesis 21:18, 20)
C. Hagar holds Ishmael in ONE HAND (Genesis 21:18)

Clearly the author is referring to an infant. But Ishmael is 14 at the time, how would he be tucked under shrubs and held in one hand of a weak woman who was dying of thirst? Why is he called a lad? Would this not more aptly apply to the infant Isaac who was only a year old and not to Ishmael who is a teenager?



Why would anyone have a problem with that? well, for a start it falls short of a human standard of basic decency, never mind divine grace. nowhere in the bible is it suggested that Ishmael was cast out and disinherited because he was evil or was deserving in any way of such harsh treatment - it was instigated by Sarah's petty jealousy on behalf of her son and portrayed as a kind of snobbishness that Ishmael, although a son of Abraham pbuh, was also a son of a slave and therefore inferior. the idea that God would condone this kind of thinking (which is implicit in the scriptures) is amazing.

Furthermore, according to Deuteronomy, the firstborn is owed a double portion of inheritance, no matter whether his mother is despised or not. 'For (the firstborn) is the beginning of his strength.' Elsewhere in the Torah Israel (the Israelites) are called by God 'my son, my firstborn son'. And when God punished the Egyptians he struck down their firstborn sons. To be the firstborn son is an honourable distinction elsewhere in the bible, so perhaps that is why Muslims feel it is worth mentioning.

as for the story of Ishmael, I'm afraid I don't have much time but I can tell you that he was brought as a baby to the valley of Mecca by Hagar and Abraham pbuh, who left them there to establish a settlement but returned regularly and when Ishmael was old enough they rebuilt the Ka'aba together (it had originally been built by Adam pbuh but evidently had disappeared). as stated in the bible, Ishmael was sufficiently close to his father's heart that he was informed of Abraham's pbuh final illness and together with his brother Isaac he buried him. Which fact jars a bit when you read it first because up till then the bible tell us a story of a son cast out and disinherited - I remember the first time I read it as a Christian I was startled and actually thought 'how did he get back into the story? I thought he was long gone!'. Did Abraham have a change of heart? How did he know where to find Ishmael? We are not told.


it is amazing to me the amount of lies and hatred and frank distortions Jews and their fundie christian counterparts will go through as if to twist God's arms.
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1564435

why quote the question but not the reply?
Reply

theplains
01-27-2013, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
I have already answered the Q for you here:
You keep quoting the Bible (which apparently you view as unreliable) to provide your answers ... but I wish
you would explain your Islamic beliefs using ONLY the Quran and Hadiths. That's why I posted my question
on a forum about Islam.

Thanks,
Jim
Reply

YusufNoor
01-27-2013, 07:53 PM
:sl:

hey Jim,

the obvious answer is both. not having time to delve into the matter in an in-depth manner at the moment, consider that obviously a covenant with Ishmael is spoken of in the Qur'an, Jesus is also referred to as the Jewish Messiah.

Islam isn't about the covenant with Issac, thus there is no need to fully explain that covenant. Moses is mentioned more in the Qur'an, about 80 times, and it is through him that the covenant with the Hebrews/Israel is discussed. Isaac, himself, is probably the least discussed Patriarch in Genesis, as well as being portrayed as the weakest of them [in that very few positive things are said about him]. Isaac isn't the Father of Israel (just Jacob/Israel's father), he is pales in comparison to his father or his son [or even his grandson, Joseph, or offspring, Moses]. getting his wife (6 years old when married) pregnant seems to be his biggest achievement. not really a stellar character. it makes no sense that the Qur'an would deal with such a minor player, nor would mention him more than the Jewish Scriptures.

what is it you really seek?

peace
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Futuwwa
01-28-2013, 12:24 AM
Ishmael is irrelevant. Muhammed is a prophet because God has decreed so, not because of his lineage.
Reply

Insaanah
01-28-2013, 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
According to the Quran and/or Hadiths, did God establish a covenant with Ishmael, Isaac, or both?
God established a covenant with all the prophets:

And [mention], when We took from the prophets their covenant and from you and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus, the son of Mary; and We took from them a solemn covenant. (33:7)

And what specifically did the covenant entail? Please provide sura/hadith references.
This is what it entailed:

He has ordained for you of religion what He enjoined upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein. Difficult for those who associate others with Allah is that to which you invite them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills and guides to Himself whoever turns back [to Him]. (42:13)

.....So are the Messengers (entrusted) with anything except (to deliver) the clear message? (16:35, part)

And [recall], when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, [saying], "Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you [must] believe in him and support him." [Allah] said: "Do you agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses." (3:81)


The verses immediately preceding the last verse above are also worth noting:

It is not (possible) for any human being unto whom Allah had given the Scripture and wisdom and the prophethood that he should afterwards have said unto mankind: Be worshippers of me apart from Allah; but (what he said was): Be faithful servants of the Lord by virtue of your constant teaching of the Scripture and of your constant study thereof. (3:79)

Nor would he order you to take angels and prophets for lords. Would he order you to disbelieve after you have submitted to Allah's Will? (3:80)

Peace.
Reply

theplains
01-30-2013, 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah

God established a covenant with all the prophets:

And [mention], when We took from the prophets their covenant and from you and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus, the son of Mary; and We took from them a solemn covenant. (33:7)

This is what it entailed:

He has ordained for you of religion ...Peace.
According to the verses you provided, it seems like the only covenant with Ishmael was the
establishment of Islam as a religion. But from the Quran and the Hadiths, what do we know
of Ishmael's ministry to his people and their immediate descendants (between the time of
Ishmael and the birth of Muhammad)? Seeing that Ishmael was contemporary with Isaac,
why were the children of Israel (through Isaac's son Jacob) favoured over their cousins (as
sura 2:47 mentions of all nations)? Is this because Islam under Ishmael did not flourish?

Thanks,
Jim
Reply

theplains
01-30-2013, 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
:sl:

> the obvious answer is both. not having time to delve into the matter in an
> in-depth manner at the moment, consider that obviously a covenant with Ishmael
> is spoken of in the Qur'an, Jesus is also referred to as the Jewish Messiah.
>
> what is it you really seek?
Where in the Qur'an is a covenant with Ishmael spoken of? Do Muslims view Jesus as the
Jewish Messiah or the Messiah for all nations?

What is it I'm really seeking? Just clarification and answers.

Thanks,
Jim
Reply

Abu Loren
02-22-2013, 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
Seeing that Ishmael was contemporary with Isaac,
why were the children of Israel (through Isaac's son Jacob) favoured over their cousins (as
sura 2:47 mentions of all nations)? Is this because Islam under Ishmael did not flourish?
As you've asked this question in another thread it seem as though you want to believe that Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Salaam) was chosen by God and Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) was excluded. Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) and his progeny settled in Mecca by the Ka'ba and they flourished there, but this is not mentioned anywhere except the Holy Qur'an. Then through time his descendants fell into idol worship until Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala chose Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) to get rid of idolotry and establish the final covenent.

You are right when you say that the Children of Israel were chosen over the worlds. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala tells us that He chooses a people to Himself. He chose the Children of Israel, then they blew it, then He chose the followers of Isa (Alahy Salaam) and they blew it and now He has chosen Prophet Muhammda (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Salaam). So Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) being a direct decendant of Prophet Ismail (Alayhi Salaam) you could say that both lines were chosen.

As pointed out above by the sister Christians and Jews would love to demonise Hagar and Ishmael.
Reply

theplains
02-23-2013, 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by Abu Loren
As pointed out above by the sister Christians and Jews would love to demonise Hagar and Ishmael.
The Bible does not demonize Hagar and Ishmael but it does say that God's covenant with Abraham
would be through Isaac, not Ishmael.

What does the Quran say about Hagar?

Peace,
Jim
Reply

Abu Loren
02-23-2013, 03:09 AM
Originally Posted by theplains
The Bible does not demonize Hagar and Ishmael but it does say that God's covenant with Abraham
would be through Isaac, not Ishmael.
God does not lie. So what about the current covenent through Prophet Ishmael's (Alayhi Salaam) descendant Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)?
Reply

theplains
02-25-2013, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Loren
God does not lie. So what about the current covenent through Prophet Ishmael's (Alayhi Salaam) descendant Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)?
Thank you Abu.

Yes. That is why I posted the question in this thread. I was wondering if someone
could explain this.

I can find that the Bible clearly shows the covenant with the children of Israel involved
the Mosaic Law, their residence of Canaan, their keeping the Sabbath, the feast days,
and the Messiah coming in the line of Isaac. It also talks about Ishmael and his descendants
being blessed.

But what specifically does the Quran/Hadith say the covenant with Ishmael and
Muhammad deals with?

Peace,
Jim
Reply

Abu Loren
02-26-2013, 03:16 AM
Originally Posted by theplains
But what specifically does the Quran/Hadith say the covenant with Ishmael and
Muhammad deals with?

I don't understand the question. But if I think what you mean what the covenent of Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) entails...

Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala chose Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) who was a direct descendant of Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Slaam). This covenent is the final one with mankind. The Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was given the Holy Qur'an as a mercy to humanity. This covent is binding until the Day of Judgement. I don't know if you aware but Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) invited the Jews and Chritians to this new and final covenent with Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. Being the 'people of the Book' they were invited mend their ways and worship the One True God in a way that He has ordained.

Also consider this.

Matthew 20
King James Version (KJV)
20 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
biblegateway.com
Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar bin Al-Khattab:
Allah's Messenger () said, "Your example and the example of Jews and Christians is like the example of a man who employed some laborers to whom he said, 'Who will work for me up to midday for one Qirat each?' The Jews carried out the work for one Qirat each; and then the Christians carried out the work up to the `Asr prayer for one Qirat each; and now you Muslims are working from the `Asr prayer up to sunset for two Qirats each. The Jews and Christians got angry and said, 'We work more and are paid less.' The employer (Allah) asked them, 'Have I usurped some of your right?' They replied in the negative. He said, 'That is My Blessing, I bestow upon whomever I wish.' "
sunnah.com
Reply

Land.Of.Pure
02-26-2013, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
You keep quoting the Bible (which apparently you view as unreliable) to provide your answers ... but I wish
you would explain your Islamic beliefs using ONLY the Quran and Hadiths. That's why I posted my question
on a forum about Islam.

Thanks,
Jim
Covenant was with people who would keep the promise\follow God's teachings...

Jews refused to accept promised Christ...

Christians made him into a "son"... (which as per islam was NOT the case)

Muslims kept the promise (1)Accepted Jesus as promissed Messiah (2)Kept absolute monotheism intact & didn't worship anyone besides God Almighty.
Reply

theplains
02-27-2013, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Loren
I don't understand the question. But if I think what you mean what the covenent of Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) entails...

Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala chose Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) who was a direct descendant of Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Slaam). This covenent is the final one with mankind. The Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was given the Holy Qur'an as a mercy to humanity. This covent is binding until the Day of Judgement.
So in Islam, geography has nothing to do with the covenant?

You mentioned Muhammad, but what was the covenant with Ishmael?

Thanks,
Jim
Reply

Abu Loren
02-27-2013, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
So in Islam, geography has nothing to do with the covenant?
If by this question that you are implying that only the geographical locations of the area of modern day Israel and Palestine are only included in any covenent with God Almighty, He tells us that the land between the Nile and the Euphrates are blessed. If you look on any map the Arabian Peninsula is slap bang in the middle of that.


Originally Posted by theplains
You mentioned Muhammad, but what was the covenant with Ishmael?
First of all we must distinguish between a Prophet (Nabi) and a Messenger (Rasool). A messenger can be a prophet but a prophet cannot be a messenger. This is because a messenger is sent to warn a people or a nation and this messenger is given written instructions such as the Torah, Zabur, Injil or the Holy Qur'an. So the obvious examples of a messenger can include Prophets Musa, Dawud, Isa and Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all). You can include Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) because he received what is now regarded as scrolls.

So as Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) was a prophet, he didn't particularly have a covenent, like all the other prophets.

Your round about way asking quetions about Prophet Ishmael seems to me that you are trying to discredit him. Looking back on other threads so many people gave you answers but like a typical Christian you come back in a sly, sithering like snake kinda way and the same question with a different twist.

Open your heart and your eyes and start to believe and Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala will give you knowledge and wisdom beyond your wilderst dreams.

So when are you going to take the Shahada?
Reply

theplains
02-27-2013, 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Loren
So as Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) was a prophet, he didn't particularly have a covenent, like all the other prophets.
Thanks. That answers my question.

Peace,
Jim
Reply

Land.Of.Pure
03-01-2013, 07:10 AM
Originally Posted by theplains
So in Islam, geography has nothing to do with the covenant?

You mentioned Muhammad, but what was the covenant with Ishmael?
What doesit exactly mean "covenant"... Does it mean who would own the land??? or there's more to it?

Does following quotes help solve the issue...!
=
=
GEN 21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
.
GEN 15:4 ....but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels(ishmael) shall be thine heir.
.
Gen:15:5:……………..., So shall thy seed be(Like stars).
Gen:16:10.(Hagar)I will multiply thy seed(ishmael) exceedingly(Like stars).
GEN 15:13:………….……….…. thy seed (ishmael thru Hagar)shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs…
GAL 4:25:……..For this Agar(& THE seed) is mount Sinai in Arabia,...(Land of Kedar)
=
=
GEN 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee(Abraham) exceedingly.
=
=
GEN 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her(Hagar/Agar), I will multiply thy(Hagar’s) seed(ishmael) exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
GAL 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren(Sarah) that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate(without husband;Hagar) hath many more children ....than .... she(Sarah) which hath an husband.(same in Is:54:1)
=
=

Reply

Abu Loren
03-01-2013, 10:48 AM
Originally Posted by Land.Of.Pure
What doesit exactly mean "covenant"... Does it mean who would own the land??? or there's more to it?

Does following quotes help solve the issue...!
=
=
GEN 21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
.
GEN 15:4 ....but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels(ishmael) shall be thine heir.
.
Gen:15:5:……………..., So shall thy seed be(Like stars).
Gen:16:10.(Hagar)I will multiply thy seed(ishmael) exceedingly(Like stars).
GEN 15:13:………….……….…. thy seed (ishmael thru Hagar)shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs…
GAL 4:25:……..For this Agar(& THE seed) is mount Sinai in Arabia,...(Land of Kedar)
=
=
GEN 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee(Abraham) exceedingly.
=
=
GEN 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her(Hagar/Agar), I will multiply thy(Hagar’s) seed(ishmael) exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
GAL 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren(Sarah) that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate(without husband;Hagar) hath many more children ....than .... she(Sarah) which hath an husband.(same in Is:54:1)
=
=

Nice quotes indeed bro but don't show it to the Christians they will only deny those very SAME verses from their Bible. Their arguement is that Hagar was a bondwoman and Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) was boen in bondage. What they fail to realise is that Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) was one of the most pious and righteous man that has ever lived, so he would have married Hagar and imagine his joy at the birth of his first born son in old age.

I was black and blue debating with Christians on another forum, they just can't see it. It's there in black and white. Their hearts are hardened and Allah has set a veil over them, they are like cattle deaf, dumb and blind.
Reply

جوري
03-01-2013, 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
You keep quoting the Bible (which apparently you view as unreliable) to provide your answers ... but I wish
you would explain your Islamic beliefs using ONLY the Quran and Hadiths. That's why I posted my question
on a forum about Islam.

Thanks,
Jim
Whether or not I view the bible as unreliable isn't germane to the topic. It isn't about my opinion, it is about the facts!
All I need to do is create enough doubt to the credibility of the book you allegedly subscribe to and whatever remains is the correct and obvious answer.
The Islamic answer has been communicated to you time and again.

Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)[3:110]attention 1 - [RECITE]
[top] [next match]
3 110 1 -
Kuntum khayra ommatin okhrijat lilnnasi tamuroona bialmaAAroofi watanhawna AAani almunkari watuminoona biAllahi walaw amana ahlu alkitabi lakana khayran lahum minhumu almuminoona waaktharuhumu alfasiqoona
Reply

theplains
03-01-2013, 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by Land.Of.Pure
What doesit exactly mean "covenant"... Does it mean who would own the land??? or there's more to it?

Does following quotes help solve the issue...!
I was hoping to find a Muslim's answer using quotes from the Quran and Hadith.

Thanks,
Jim
Reply

جوري
03-01-2013, 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
I was hoping to find a Muslim's answer using quotes from the Quran and Hadith.

Thanks,
Jim
And what does what sister Insaanah gave you in post number 6
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1565360

constitute in your book?
Reply

theplains
03-02-2013, 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
And what does what sister Insaanah gave you in post number 6
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1565360

constitute in your book?
Thanks. It was answered in post number 16.

Jim
Reply

Insaanah
03-02-2013, 06:43 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Abu Loren
First of all we must distinguish between a Prophet (Nabi) and a Messenger (Rasool). A messenger can be a prophet but a prophet cannot be a messenger. [...]
Originally Posted by Abu Loren
So as Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) was a prophet
Allah says he was a messenger and a prophet:

Sahih International
And mention in the Book, Ishmael. Indeed, he was true to his promise, and he was a messenger and a prophet...

Muhsin Khan
And mention in the Book (the Quran) Isma'il (Ishmael). Verily! He was true to what he promised, and he was a Messenger, (and) a Prophet.

Pickthall
And make mention in the Scripture of Ishmael. Lo! he was a keeper of his promise, and he was a messenger (of Allah), a prophet.

Yusuf Ali
Also mention in the Book (the story of) Isma'il: He was (strictly) true to what he promised, and he was a messenger (and) a prophet.

Dr. Ghali
And mention in the Book Ismail; (Ishmael) surely he was sincerely (true) to his promise, and he was a Messenger, a Prophet. (19:54)

The tafsir of ibn Kathir to this verse says:

(and he was a Messenger, (and) a Prophet.) In this is a proof of Isma`il's favored status over his brother, Ishaq. Ishaq was only described as being a Prophet, but Isma`il was described with both prophethood and messengership. It is confirmed in Sahih Muslim that the Messenger of Allah said, "Verily, Allah chose Isma'il from the sons of Ibrahim...". Then, Imam Muslim mentions the rest of the Hadith in its entirety. However, this statement proves the correctness of what we have said.
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...2674&Itemid=75

And Allah knows best.
Reply

Abu Loren
03-02-2013, 07:11 PM
^
Thank you.:embarrass
Reply

truthseeker63
04-17-2013, 10:31 PM
The Covenant was/is with both.
Reply

theplains
04-18-2013, 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by truthseeker63
The Covenant was/is with both.
According to the Quran and Hadiths, would you mention some of the major points of what
this covenant involved?

Thanks,
Jim
Reply

جوري
04-21-2013, 11:28 PM
Question: I have read form a Christian's point of view that the Muslim race can be traced back to Abraham's first born son Ishmael and Muslims believe that Ishmael was the one that actually for filled the covenant God had promised not Issac. I would like to know if this a true Muslim belief and if so why do you believe that Ishmael was the one that for filled the covenant. If I have asked something offensive it is out of ignorance not from disrespect.
Answer: I commend you for raising this issue. It is essential for people of all faiths to get to know each other. By doing so, we are more likely to overcome much of the prejudice prevailing among people. And we are better able to serve God, the Creator and Lord of all.

First of all, it is not correct to refer to Muslims as a single race rather Muslims consist of all known races. Although Prophet Muhammad was an Arab, the majority of Muslims are not Arabs; there are millions of Arabs, who are not Muslims; many of them are also Christians.

It is true that Prophet Muhammad was a descendent of Ismael, the first son of Prophet Ibrahim. The Islamic view of the covenant is not quite the same as that of the Jews or Christians. Islam teaches that God’s covenant with Abraham extends to all of his progeny (including Ismael whose very name in Arabic means ' answer to a prayer’, as well as his younger son, Ishaq); and in a wider sense, the covenant also includes all believers, regardless of their biological lineage.
God says in the Qur'an, “O Mankind! We have created you from a single pair of a male and female and rendered you nations and tribes in order for you to know one another. Verily, the noblest of you in the sight of God is the one who is most conscious of Him.” (Qur’an: 49:13).
Reply

theplains
04-22-2013, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
God’s covenant with Abraham extends to all of his progeny (including Ismael whose very name in Arabic means ' answer to a prayer’
According to the Quran or Hadiths, did Abraham pray to have a son through Hagar or his
wife Sarah?

Peace,
Jim
Reply

جوري
04-22-2013, 11:35 PM
prophets aren't petty they don't put conditions on God!
they've faith, that same faith led him to go kill his ONLY son!


best,
Reply

theplains
04-23-2013, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
prophets aren't petty they don't put conditions on God!
they've faith, that same faith led him to go kill his ONLY son!


best,
Does the Quran or Hadiths explain why Abraham would pray for a son? Was he
incapable of having a child in addition to Sarah or was it just Sarah who could
not conceive at that time?

Peace,
Jim
Reply

جوري
04-23-2013, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
Does the Quran or Hadiths explain why Abraham would pray for a son? Was he
incapable of having a child in addition to Sarah or was it just Sarah who could
not conceive at that time?

Peace,
Jim
Why do people usually want kids?
& Sarah couldn't conceive- that's common knowledge no? Not the only woman who couldn't conceive or the first man to want a child in the holy books either!

best,
Reply

theplains
04-26-2013, 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
Sarah couldn't conceive- that's common knowledge no?

best,
Where does the Quran/Hadiths teach that?

Peace,
Jim
Reply

جوري
04-26-2013, 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
Where does the Quran/Hadiths teach that?

Peace,
Jim
Why don't you open the Quran and read it?
Here's a couple of examples:

Az-Zariyat (The Winds that Scatter)[51:29]attention 4 - [RECITE]
[top] [next match]
51 29 1 -
Faaqbalati imraatuhu fee sarratin fasakkat wajhaha waqalat AAajoozun AAaqeemun

Try to read the Quran & hadith because with each of your questions I further doubt your sincerity!
Reply

theplains
04-26-2013, 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
Why don't you open the Quran and read it?
Here's a couple of examples:

Az-Zariyat (The Winds that Scatter)[51:29]attention 4 - [RECITE]

51 29 1 -
Faaqbalati imraatuhu fee sarratin fasakkat wajhaha waqalat AAajoozun AAaqeemun
Thanks. I didn't get that far yet. But it seems that Isaac is more of an example of God
answering prayer with a miracle.

Peace,
Jim
Reply

جوري
04-26-2013, 04:44 PM
not really. Every messanger had a miracle and a trial!

best,
Reply

ccc
04-30-2013, 12:55 AM
hadith 4 583
quran 19 54-55
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-30-2013, 01:51 AM
ccc, you can't just say "hadith 4:583". How are we supposed to know what that means?
Reply

ccc
04-30-2013, 01:57 AM
http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh4/bh4_586.htm
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-30-2013, 03:22 AM
If your purpose, ccc, is to sow doubt in our heads as to whether Ishmael is meant to be the one even in our own scriptures then read pages 182-193 in Ibn Kathir’s “Stories of the Prophets”, English Edition 1, and that should clear everything up for you. But then again so should this:

037.095 He said: Worship ye that which ye yourselves do carve
037.096 When Allah hath created you and what ye make?
037.097 They said: Build for him a building and fling him in the red-hotfire.
037.098 And they designed a snare for him, but We made them the undermost.
037.099 And he said: Lo! I am going unto my Lord Who will guide me.
037.100 My Lord! Vouchsafe me of the righteous.
037.101 So We gave him tidings of a gentle son.
037.102 And when (his son) was old enough to walk with him, (Abraham) said: O my dear son, I have seen in a dream that I must sacrifice thee. So look, what thinkest thou? He said: O my father! Do that which thou art commanded. Allah willing, thou shalt find me of the steadfast.
037.103 Then, when they had both surrendered (to Allah), and he had flung him down upon his face,
037.104 We called unto him: O Abraham!
037.105 Thou hast already fulfilled the vision. Lo! thus do We reward the good.
037.106 Lo! that verily was a clear test.
037.107 Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim.
037.108 And We left for him among the later folk (the salutation):
037.109 Peace be unto Abraham!
037.110 Thus do We reward the good.
037.111 Lo! he is one of Our believing slaves.
037.112 And we gave him tidings of the birth of Isaac, a prophet of the righteous.
037.113 And We blessed him and Isaac. And of their seed are some who do good, and some who plainly wrong themselves.
(Pickthall)

So there you have it.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
HeartHijab.com | Hijab Sale | Pound Shop | UK Wholesale Certified Face Masks, Hand Sanitiser & PPE

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!