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dudeguy
02-17-2013, 07:56 AM
Circumcision isn't even mentioned in Quran.
Quran says God created humans perfect. Hadith says body modifications are haram. Isn't it right of the person to decide himself? Circumcision can be delayed till adulthood when a person can give consent. If god wants to remove a body part, why did he create it. Don't compare foreskin with things like pigs, they are not attached to human body and it isn't painful to get away from them.

As for the scientific reasons, it is estimated about 1 in 10,000 babies die due to circumcision bleeding and infection in USA. If you think circumcision does not causes death, you are living in an imaginary world. This is only about death, many more must lose significant part of penis.
UTI penis cancer and cervical cancer are very rare and very safe compared to circumcision. Many studies show circumcision reduces them and many studies show otherwise.
Circumcision does not increases pleasure as it removes most sensitive part of man's body.
The biggest reason to circumcise is given 3 randomized trials about STDs. Drugs are not tested that way. Test group is given a placebo (fake drug) and they see if the real drug works comparatively better than the placebo. the studies were conducted for a short period of time (about 2 years), where circumcised men had to abstinence for healing period. According to the same trials circumcised men were catching up with others. The three trials give significantly different results from each other (60 56 51 %). It is not proven circumcision of children reduces STD. Children don't get STDs same way as adults.
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Hulk
02-17-2013, 08:11 AM
Do you clip your nails?
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Iceee
02-17-2013, 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by Hulk
Do you clip your nails?
Salaam.

I would reply but that ^^^ LoL.
Welcome to our forums brother.

I advise all new-comers to search for related threads on our forums.
It's there for a reason; use it.
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Jedi_Mindset
02-17-2013, 09:54 AM
Circumcision is sunnah, its a huge priority though. As you can clean your prive parts better then. Circumcision doesnt have to happen if you are just born, it can happen after you are born until you have reached puberty.

More babies die of other causes than by circumcision. And the reason why the babies die it is most likely there is not enough cleaniness or its done with a dirty surgery instrument. Not by the circumcision itself.
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Alpha Dude
02-17-2013, 10:47 AM
Be aware that no amount of protest from you is going to change the Islamic stance on the issue: Circumcision is a heavily emphasised sunnah which should not be neglected without a good reason. Some scholarly opinions hold that it is wajib.

If you don't want to be or don't wish your children to be circumcised, that is your choice. Even if you don't necessarily agree with or don't like it for whatever reason, that is your prerogative. However, don't pretend that it's not something that Islam teaches. Don't be disingenuous. It's clear that circumcision is a part of Islam and anything anyone can say to the contrary is only self-delusion.

You can come up with all sorts of (supposed) 'scientific' facts and data against circumcision but that won't change the position of it in Islam. With that in mind, a person can either follow it and gain reward or not do it (and possibly gain some sin) or denounce it or refuse to acknowledge it is part of Islam to begin with (and definitely gain sin).

Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said: "The practices related to Fitrah (natural human ways) are five: Circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, trimming the moustache, pairing the nails and removing the hair of the armpits." - Sahih al-Bukhari

it is estimated about 1 in 10,000 babies die due to circumcision bleeding and infection in USA.
P.s. If you want to quote a statistic, be thorough please. How many get circumcised to start with? It may be a shock to someone to hear 1 in 10,000 die but if only 11,000 babies are getting circumcised, then it's only 1 baby (which for all intents and purposes could be down to medical malpractice (same reason for cause of any other complications).
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dudeguy
02-17-2013, 12:10 PM
[Satan said:] " I will mislead them, I will entice them, I will command them to mark the ears of livestock, and I will command them to distort the creation of GOD. [4:119]
Islam stresses on the fact that religions before Islam were blind worship.

I am a Quran only Muslim. After reading this post many of you will start posting about I'm misguided, hadith rejector and kafir. I'm a misguided fool, but you are very wise and intelligent people, you know many things about Islam that I don't know, so how can you not only let this happen but also support it.

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Insaanah
02-17-2013, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by dudeguy
I am a Quran only Muslim.
If you follow the Qur'an, then you need to follow those parts that tell you to follow the sunnah too.

Read from here onwards:

http://www.islamicboard.com/quran/13...ml#post1566669

and lots of excellent articles here on the sunnah and hadeeth:

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1542902
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ardianto
02-17-2013, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by dudeguy
As for the scientific reasons, it is estimated about 1 in 10,000 babies die due to circumcision bleeding and infection in USA.
Babies?. In Indonesia the boys circumcised when they are 5-12 years old. Circumcise babies is not suggested here.
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Good brother
02-19-2013, 08:59 PM
Ever heard of coagulation profile or smegma bacilli ?!
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Karl
02-19-2013, 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by dudeguy
Circumcision isn't even mentioned in Quran.
Quran says God created humans perfect. Hadith says body modifications are haram. Isn't it right of the person to decide himself? Circumcision can be delayed till adulthood when a person can give consent. If god wants to remove a body part, why did he create it. Don't compare foreskin with things like pigs, they are not attached to human body and it isn't painful to get away from them.

As for the scientific reasons, it is estimated about 1 in 10,000 babies die due to circumcision bleeding and infection in USA. If you think circumcision does not causes death, you are living in an imaginary world. This is only about death, many more must lose significant part of penis.
UTI penis cancer and cervical cancer are very rare and very safe compared to circumcision. Many studies show circumcision reduces them and many studies show otherwise.
Circumcision does not increases pleasure as it removes most sensitive part of man's body.
The biggest reason to circumcise is given 3 randomized trials about STDs. Drugs are not tested that way. Test group is given a placebo (fake drug) and they see if the real drug works comparatively better than the placebo. the studies were conducted for a short period of time (about 2 years), where circumcised men had to abstinence for healing period. According to the same trials circumcised men were catching up with others. The three trials give significantly different results from each other (60 56 51 %). It is not proven circumcision of children reduces STD. Children don't get STDs same way as adults.
Allah gives you freedom of choice. As the father you can choose if you want to have your sons foreskin cut or not.
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Iceee
02-19-2013, 10:22 PM
Sunni Islam

Amongst Ulema (Muslim legal scholars), there are differing opinions about the compulsion of circumcision in Sharia (Islamic law). Imams Abu Hanafi, founder of the Hanafi school of Fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence), and Malik Ibn Anas, maintain that circumcision is a Sunnah Mu'akkadah—not obligatory but highly recommended. The Shafi and Hanabi schools see it as binding on all Muslims and the Shafi'i for both male and female.

Shia Islam
Most Shia traditions regard the practice as obligatory. They rely on sayings that come from classical Shia authors. In one narration Muhammad was asked if an uncircumcised man could go to pilgrimage. He answered "not as long as he is not circumcised". They quote Ali as saying: "If a man becomes Muslim, he must submit to circumcision even if he is 80 years old". Another narration from Al-Sadiq says: "Circumcise your sons when they are seven days old as it is cleaner (athar) and the flesh grows faster and because the earth hates the urine of the uncircumcised". It is also believed that the urine of the uncircumcised is impure, and if one prays with unclean genitals their prayer will not be heard. Another hadith of Muhammad states: "the earth cries out to God in anguish because of the urine of the uncircumcised", and that "the earth becomes defiled from the urine of the uncircumcised for forty days".
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Abu Loren
02-20-2013, 07:39 PM
Islam is the continuation of the religion which was established by Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam). Allah Subhana Wa T'ala ordered Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) to circumcise his two sons and to circumcise all who will follow him.

Sahih International
My Lord, indeed they have led astray many among the people. So whoever follows me - then he is of me; and whoever disobeys me - indeed, You are [yet] Forgiving and Merciful. 14:36.
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Karl
02-21-2013, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by dudeguy
Circumcision isn't even mentioned in Quran.
Quran says God created humans perfect. Hadith says body modifications are haram. Isn't it right of the person to decide himself? Circumcision can be delayed till adulthood when a person can give consent. If god wants to remove a body part, why did he create it. Don't compare foreskin with things like pigs, they are not attached to human body and it isn't painful to get away from them.

As for the scientific reasons, it is estimated about 1 in 10,000 babies die due to circumcision bleeding and infection in USA. If you think circumcision does not causes death, you are living in an imaginary world. This is only about death, many more must lose significant part of penis.
UTI penis cancer and cervical cancer are very rare and very safe compared to circumcision. Many studies show circumcision reduces them and many studies show otherwise.
Circumcision does not increases pleasure as it removes most sensitive part of man's body.
The biggest reason to circumcise is given 3 randomized trials about STDs. Drugs are not tested that way. Test group is given a placebo (fake drug) and they see if the real drug works comparatively better than the placebo. the studies were conducted for a short period of time (about 2 years), where circumcised men had to abstinence for healing period. According to the same trials circumcised men were catching up with others. The three trials give significantly different results from each other (60 56 51 %). It is not proven circumcision of children reduces STD. Children don't get STDs same way as adults.
You have got a point and if it was of utmost importance it would be one of the five pillars of Islam. Or one of the ten commandments. It may have been for people that live in deserts with little water and hygiene problems. My tribes in the north west of Europe and other parts with plenty of water never dreamed of cutting their foreskins off, even way back in the time of Woden and later Christiandom. Circumcision was very popular with the black kafir tribes in Africa. At the end of the day it is the fathers choice and no one else has the right to interfere.
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dudeguy
02-22-2013, 10:50 AM
According to 25:2, 40:64, 64:3, 95:4 verses, God created humans perfectly. Are they false? Yes or no?
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Abu Loren
02-22-2013, 10:56 AM
Originally Posted by dudeguy
According to 25:2, 40:64, 64:3, 95:4 verses, God created humans perfectly. Are they false? Yes or no?
Who are you asking dude?

Of course He did. If circumcision wasn't important nor required for Muslims then Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) would not have authorised it. Anyway, what does being created perfect and circumcision go to do with it? Are you saying that by being circucised that this makes one an inferior human being?
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cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn
02-22-2013, 03:57 PM
First of all people should not be quoting Quran or Hadith without context! This is a disservice to everyone. One should be careful in quoting the words of Allah swt and his messenger sallalahu aleyhi wasalaam. Don't just give one ayat by itself, tell what came before and after the ayat, and stop being so lazy as to only quote the surah and ayat numbers. My goodness. You want to make a point? make it properly.

Quran thumping is just as bad as bible thumping! I could write a book on this and perhaps one day I will, insha ALlah.

Allah gave everybody intellect, so USE IT! The Quran doesn't tell you (I'm addressing the ones questioning) how to go to the bathroom and clean up properly does it? The Quran doesn't tell you how to do very basic things, yet somehow you learned how to do them. Who thought you?? :D

Allah has blessed us with great examples to follow. He has blessed us with the best of men, our prophets and messengers (peace be upon them all), so that we may learn from them, beginning with Adam (a.s), who was thought by Allah swt, the names of everything.

Prophet Ibrahim (a.s.) was very special and in order to understand that you would have to study his story many times over. It was prophet Ibrahim(a.s.) who was commanded to circumcise himself and his offspring to mark the covenant between him and Allah (This story can be found in the book of genisis). We continue this sunnah until this day. In the Quran In Surah Al-Nahl (chapter 16), you can read that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) was told to follow the religion of Ibrahim, and circumcision was part of the religion of Ibrahim (a.s).

(120. Verily, Ibrahim was (himself) an Ummah, obedient to Allah, a Hanif (monotheist), and he was not one of the idolators.) (121. (He was) thankful for His favors. He (Allah) chose him and guided him to a straight path.) (122. And We gave him good in this world, and in the Hereafter he shall be of the righteous.) (123. Then, We have sent the revelation to you: "Follow the religion of Ibrahim (he was a) Hanif, and he was not one of the idolators.'')
Here is the tafsir Ibn Kathir for these ayat:

وَلَقَدْ ءَاتَيْنَآ إِبْرَهِيمَ رُشْدَهُ مِن قَبْلُ وَكُنَّا بِهِ عَـلِمِينَ ﴾
(And before, We indeed gave Ibrahim his integrity, and We were indeed most knowledgeable about him)(21:51). Then Allah says:
﴿وَهَدَاهُ إِلَى صِرَطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ﴾
(and guided him to a straight path.) which means to worship Allah alone, without partners or associate, in the manner that He prescribed and which pleases Him.
﴿وَءاتَيْنَـهُ فِى الْدُّنْيَا حَسَنَةً﴾
(And We gave him good in this world,) meaning, `We granted him all that a believer may require for a good and complete life in this world.'
﴿وَإِنَّهُ فِى الاٌّخِرَةِ لَمِنَ الصَّـلِحِينَ﴾
(and in the Hereafter he shall be of the righteous.) Concerning the Ayah:
﴿وَءاتَيْنَـهُ فِى الْدُّنْيَا حَسَنَةً﴾
(And We gave him good in this world,) Mujahid said: "This means a truthful tongue.''
﴿ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْكَ أَنِ اتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَهِيمَ حَنِيفًا﴾
(Then, We have sent the revelation to you: "Follow the religion of Ibrahim (he was a) Hanif. ..) meaning, `because of his perfection, greatness, and the soundness of his Tawhid and his way, We revealed to you, O Seal of the Messengers and Leader of the Prophets ,'
﴿أَنِ اتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ﴾
(Follow the religion of Ibrahim (he was a) Hanif and he was not of the idolators.) This is like the Ayah in Surat Al-An`am:
﴿قُلْ إِنَّنِى هَدَانِى رَبِّى إِلَى صِرَطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِّلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ ﴾
(Say: "Truly, my Lord has guided me to a straight path, a right religion, the religion of Ibrahim, (he was a) Hanif and he was not of the idolators.'') (6:161).


So I mean, do you really need Allah to address you personally and tell you to circumcise? :heated:

- cOsMiC


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Abu Loren
02-22-2013, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn
First of all people should not be quoting Quran or Hadith without context! This is a disservice to everyone.
If you are referring to me what I was trying to convey is that Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) said "whoever follows me.." meaning that we must adhere to what he was instructed to do by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. In that context circumcision would be one of the things that we need to follow.
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dudeguy
02-22-2013, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Karl
You have got a point and if it was of utmost importance it would be one of the five pillars of Islam. Or one of the ten commandments. It may have been for people that live in deserts with little water and hygiene problems. My tribes in the north west of Europe and other parts with plenty of water never dreamed of cutting their foreskins off, even way back in the time of Woden and later Christiandom. Circumcision was very popular with the black kafir tribes in Africa. At the end of the day it is the fathers choice and no one else has the right to interfere.
What about mother?
The sand problem is a myth. Foreskin is like eyelid (both protect some organ and keep it moist). No one reported problem with eyelids.

Originally Posted by Abu Loren
Who are you asking dude?

Of course He did. If circumcision wasn't important nor required for Muslims then Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) would not have authorised it. Anyway, what does being created perfect and circumcision go to do with it? Are you saying that by being circucised that this makes one an inferior human being?
Its about altering the perfect creation. It is not same as cutting hair or nails which grow back and is not living tissue. Hadith which contradict Quran or common sense cannot be regarded as authentic.

A baby would say 'You wanna cut off what!' Thats common sense.
Common you don't have to be rocket scientist to know it is right or wrong
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'Abd-al Latif
02-22-2013, 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by dudeguy
Circumcision isn't even mentioned in Quran.
Quran says God created humans perfect. Hadith says body modifications are haram. Isn't it right of the person to decide himself? Circumcision can be delayed till adulthood when a person can give consent. If god wants to remove a body part, why did he create it. Don't compare foreskin with things like pigs, they are not attached to human body and it isn't painful to get away from them.

As for the scientific reasons, it is estimated about 1 in 10,000 babies die due to circumcision bleeding and infection in USA. If you think circumcision does not causes death, you are living in an imaginary world. This is only about death, many more must lose significant part of penis.
UTI penis cancer and cervical cancer are very rare and very safe compared to circumcision. Many studies show circumcision reduces them and many studies show otherwise.
Circumcision does not increases pleasure as it removes most sensitive part of man's body.
The biggest reason to circumcise is given 3 randomized trials about STDs. Drugs are not tested that way. Test group is given a placebo (fake drug) and they see if the real drug works comparatively better than the placebo. the studies were conducted for a short period of time (about 2 years), where circumcised men had to abstinence for healing period. According to the same trials circumcised men were catching up with others. The three trials give significantly different results from each other (60 56 51 %). It is not proven circumcision of children reduces STD. Children don't get STDs same way as adults.
Circumcision for men is obligatory. How can matters of halal and haram be left to the whim of a human being??

In Al-Bukhari and Muslim it says that the Messenger :saws1: said:

The (characteristics of) the fitrah are five: circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, trimming the moustache, cutting the fingernails and plucking the armpit hairs.

It also says in Al-Bukhari and Muslim the Messenger :saws1: said:

"The Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him) was circumcisized when he was eighty (years old)"



Question: Could you tell us what circumcision is and how and where it is done?.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) wrote a useful book on the rulings concerning the newborn, which he called Tuhfat al-Mawdood fi Ahkaam al-Mawlood. In this book he wrote an extensive chapter in which he spoke of circumcision and the rulings thereon. The following is a summary of that, with additional comments from some other scholars.

1 – The meaning of circumcision (khitaan):

Ibn al-Qayyim said:

Khitaan is a noun describing the action of the circumciser (khaatin). It is also used to describe the site of the circumcision, as in the hadeeth, “When the two circumcised parts (al-khitaanaan) meet, ghusl become obligatory.” In the case of a female the word used is khafad. In the male it is also called i’dhaar. The one who is uncircumcised is called aghlaf or aqlaf.

Tuhfat al-Mawlood, 1/152

2 – Circumcision is the Sunnah of Ibraaheem and the Prophets after him:

Al-Bukhaari (6298) and Muslim (2370) narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) circumcised himself when he was eighty years old, and he circumcised himself with an adze.”

An adze (qadoom) is a carpenter’s tool; it was also said that al-Qadoom is a place is Syria.

Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said:

It is most likely that what is referred to in the hadeeth is the tool. Abu Ya’laa narrated that ‘Ali ibn Rabaah said: “Ibraaheem was commanded to circumcise himself, so he circumcised himself with an adze and it was very painful for him. Then Allaah revealed to him saying, “You rushed to do it before We told you what tool to use.” He said, “O Lord, I did not want to delay obeying Your command.”

Ibn al-Qayyim said:

Circumcision was one of the things with which Allaah tested Ibraaheem, His Close Friend. He did them perfectly so Allaah made him a leader of mankind. It was narrated that he was the first one who was circumcised, as mentioned above. What it says in al-Saheeh is that Ibraaheem circumcised himself when he was eighty years old. After him, circumcision continued among the Messengers and their followers, even the Messiah. He was circumcised and the Christians affirm that, and do not deny that, as they also affirm that he was forbidden the flesh of pigs…

Tuhfat al-Mawdood, p. 158-159

But the scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) differed as to the ruling on circumcision.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The most correct view is that it is obligatory in the case of men and Sunnah in the case of women. The difference between them is that in the case of men, it serves an interest which has to do with one of the conditions of prayer, namely purity (tahaarah), because if the foreskin remains, when the urine comes out of the urethra, some of it will collect there, and this causes burning and infection every time the person moves, and every time the foreskin is squeezed, some drops of urine come out, thus causing najaasah (impurity).

In the case of women, it serves a useful purpose which is to reduce desire. This is seeking perfection, not removing something harmful.

Al-Sharh al-Mumti’, 1/133-134

This is the view of Imam Ahmad (may Allaah have mercy on him). Ibn Quddamah said in al-Mughni (1/115): As for circumcision, it is obligatory for men and it is good in the case of woman, but it is not obligatory for them.

3 – Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Abu’l-Barakaat said in his book al-Ghaayah: In circumcision of a man, the skin at the tip of the penis (the foreskin) is removed; if he only removes most of it, that is permissible. It is mustahabb to circumcise females provided that is not done in an extreme manner. It was narrated that ‘Umar said to a woman who circumcised females, “Leave some of it if you circumcise (a girl).” Al-Khallaal said in his Jaami’: What is cut when circumcising: Muhammad ibn al-Husayn told me that al-Fadl ibn Ziyaad told them: Ahmad was asked, How much should be cut in circumcision? He said, Until the glans (tip of the penis) becomes visible.

Ibn al-Sabbaagh said in al-Shaamil: What is obligatory in the case of a man is to cut the skin on the tip of the penis until the entire glans becomes visible. In the case of a woman, it means cutting the skin that looks like the comb of a rooster at the top of the vagina, between the two labia; if it is cut the base of it should be left like a date pit.

Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The well-known correct view is that everything covering the glans must be cut.

Al-Majmoo’, 1/351

Al-Juwayni said:

The hadeeth indicates that not too much of it should be removed (in the case of women), because he said, “Leave something sticking out and do not go to extremes in cutting.”

Tuhfat al-Mawdood, 190-192

The point is that in the case of males, all the skin covering the tip of the penis should be cut, but in the case of females only a part of the skin that is like a rooster’s comb at the top of the vagina should be cut.

4 – The wisdom behind circumcision

With regard to a man, he cannot be clean from urine unless he is circumcised, because drops of urine collect underneath the foreskin and he cannot be sure that they will not drip and make his clothes and body impure. Hence ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas was very strict on the issue of circumcision. Imam Ahmad said: Ibn ‘Abbaas was very strict on this matter, and it was narrated that there is no Hajj and no prayer for him, i.e., if a person is not circumcised his Hajj and prayer are not valid. Al-Mughni, 1/115

With regard to the wisdom behind the circumcision of women, it is to regulate their desire so it will be moderate.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about whether women should be circumcised or not. He replied:

Praise be to Allaah. Yes, they should be circumcised, i.e., the top of the piece of skin that looks like a rooster’s comb should be cut. The Messenger of Allaah (S) said to the woman who did circumcisions: “Leave something sticking out and do not go to extremes in cutting. That makes her face look brighter and is more pleasing to her husband.” That is because the purpose of circumcising a man is to make him clean from the impurity that may collect beneath the foreskin. But the purpose of circumcising women is to regulate their desire, because if a woman is not circumcised her desire will be strong. Hence the words “O son of an uncircumcised woman” are used as an insult, because the uncircumcised woman has stronger desire. Hence immoral actions are more common among the women of the Tatars and the Franks, that are not found among the Muslim women. If the circumcision is too severe, the desire is weakened altogether, which is unpleasing for men; but if it is cut without going to extremes in that, the purpose will be achieved, which is moderating desire. And Allaah knows best.

Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 21/114

5 – It is permissible to pay money for circumcision.

Ibn Qudaamah said:

It is permissible to pay money for circumcision and for medical treatment. We do not know of any difference of opinion on this matter, because it is doing something that is needed and which is allowed in sharee’ah. So it is permissible to pay money for it, like all other permissible actions.

Al-Mughni, 5/314.

www.islamqa.com
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
02-22-2013, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by dudeguy
I am a Quran only Muslim. After reading this post many of you will start posting about I'm misguided, hadith rejector and kafir. I'm a misguided fool, but you are very wise and intelligent people, you know many things about Islam that I don't know, so how can you not only let this happen but also support it.
You'll reject the hadeeth of the Messenger :saws1: who was sent by Allah to inform you of your religion but you'll accept scientific views from another human being?
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
02-22-2013, 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by dudeguy
According to 25:2, 40:64, 64:3, 95:4 verses, God created humans perfectly. Are they false? Yes or no?
Adam (as) was created perfect because he was created by the hands of Allah Himself. After that human beings have been deteriorating because of sins.

Whatever the case, this is among the countless problems of rejecting hadeeth. You can't understand half the religion because you completely deny the human being who explained the ayaat and made the religion clear.

Had Allah intended man to figure out the Qur'an according to his own intellect – bearing in mind people can make up a million different interpretations of the Qur'an if they reject hadeeth – Allah would have revealed the Qur'an on a mountain, let man pick it up when he stumbles upon it and then allow him to interpret the ayaat in any way he likes. This view lacks reason, wisdom and logic and no reasonable human being would ever accept this idea.
Nevertheless, the one thing that always remained the same from the time of Adam (as) all the way till Muhammad :saws1: was the creed of Islam i.e. there is and always was only one God, mankind must worship Him alone and associate no partners with Him at all. But what always remained subject to change was the laws i.e. what was halal at one point in time was not halal at another point in time, vice versa for the haram matters.

This is proven in surah Yusuf where Yusuf (as) said to his father Yaqoob (as) that "Verily, I saw (in a dream) eleven stars and the sun and the moon,— I saw them prostrating themselves to me." Later in the very same surah, we learn that these stars were his brothers and the sun and the moon were his parents, as the ayaah states "And he raised his parents to the throne and they fell down before him prostrate. And he said: "O my father! This is the interpretation of my dream aforetime!"

How can a human being, a prophet at that, prostrate his head to another prophet and not to Allah? Are these two prophets committing shirk? Never!

The custom at the time of Yusuf (as) was to prostrate/bow as a sign of respect. Can we do this today? No, because this is haram. My point: the laws change according to time, situation and circumstances and the belief never changes. To put an end to Messengership (who would come with a new law)/prophethood Allah sent the best of creation, Muhammad :saws1:, to bring one final law onto this earth that will last until the final hour: the Qur'an and the Sunnah. The sunnah is an inseparable part of this law because Allah says, "He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah..." (Qur'an 4:80). This law will never change. And a part of this law is for the men to circumcise.

The Qur'an commands that you obey the Messenger :saws1:. Are you going to follow your whims and desire? Yes? No?
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sister herb
02-22-2013, 10:38 PM
Salam alaykum

This seems to be one of those question what has been asked as member wants to get just only answer he has decided it is be the only right one. He already has decided what is right and what is wrong for his mind. Any other answers are "wrong" and "false" to him.

Good thing is that kind of questions put us others to think. Sadly he will never accepts opinions and answers what disagree his own "answer".
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dudeguy
02-28-2013, 12:45 PM
isn't it a persons own right to be circumcised or not circumcised?
If it is so important please tell where can I find it in Quran.
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MustafaMc
02-28-2013, 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by dudeguy
If it is so important please tell where can I find it in Quran.
If you are a hadith-rejector, then you have the right to be so and to not follow the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (saaws) and instead follow whatever whim you choose for your own personal practice of Islam, but know that your perspective is not accepted or respected by the preponderance of Muslims and your arguments carry absolutely zero weight.
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Abu Loren
02-28-2013, 01:46 PM
Also where does it tell you how to pray in the Holy Qur'an? And perform wudu? and fast?
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Darth Ultor
02-28-2013, 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by dudeguy
I am a Quran only Muslim
Doesn't the Quran say to obey the word of the Prophet (his recorded Hadith)?
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Insaanah
02-28-2013, 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by dudeguy
According to 25:2, 40:64, 64:3, 95:4 verses, God created humans perfectly. Are they false? Yes or no?
If science today, was to prove that the foreskin is essential at birth, but not needed afterwards, would you accept that? If so, a lay humans' words are more believable than the word of Allah, subhaanahu wa ta'ala or his prophet :saws:? (For us though it makes no difference if science proves it or not, we hear and we obey [2:285]).

By the way, the translation of 25:2 says this:

Saheeh International
He to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and who has not taken a son and has not had a partner in dominion and has created each thing and determined it with [precise] determination.

This doesn't contradict circumcision.

40:64 says this:

Yusuf Ali
It is Allah Who has made for you the earth as a resting place, and the sky as a canopy, and has given you shape- and made your shapes beautiful,- and has provided for you Sustenance, of things pure and good;- such is Allah your Lord. So Glory to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!

This doesn't contradict circumcision either.

64:3 says this:

Muhsin Khan
He has created the heavens and the earth with truth, and He shaped you and made good your shapes, and to Him is the final Return.

Nothing here that contradicts circumcision either.

95:4 says:

Pickthall
Surely We created man of the best stature.

Nothing here that contradicts circumcision either. And I've used a range of different translations. The Arabic word ahsana, used in all the above verses apart from 25:2, means to make good or best, and some have translated this as to perfect. I've used a range of translations above, none of which translate it that way, and even those that do, it still doesn't contradict circumcision, as circumcision doesn't imply that Allah didn't perfect the creation of human beings. That's a wrong inference to make.

Originally Posted by dudeguy
Hadith which contradict Quran or common sense cannot be regarded as authentic.
Does this mean that you believe in, and accept, and follow the hadeeth, which seem to you to be in agreement with the Qur'an, as authentic? And your problem is nly with those that appear personally to you, to contradict the Qur'an, but you accept those that personally to you, seem to agree with the Qur'an?

Also, did you read the links given in post number seven, or the first one even? I've quoted that post below:

Originally Posted by Insaanah

If you follow the Qur'an, then you need to follow those parts that tell you to follow the sunnah too.

Read from here onwards:

http://www.islamicboard.com/quran/13...ml#post1566669

and lots of excellent articles here on the sunnah and hadeeth:

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1542902
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'Abd-al Latif
02-28-2013, 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by dudeguy
isn't it a persons own right to be circumcised or not circumcised?
If it is so important please tell where can I find it in Quran.
You're not bothering to read my reply are you?
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Abu Loren
02-28-2013, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
You're not bothering to read to my reply are you?
No, because he's a Qur'anist. lol
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Karl
02-28-2013, 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by dudeguy
[Satan said:] " I will mislead them, I will entice them, I will command them to mark the ears of livestock, and I will command them to distort the creation of GOD. [4:119]
Islam stresses on the fact that religions before Islam were blind worship.

I am a Quran only Muslim. After reading this post many of you will start posting about I'm misguided, hadith rejector and kafir. I'm a misguided fool, but you are very wise and intelligent people, you know many things about Islam that I don't know, so how can you not only let this happen but also support it.
Maybe you are right, the Quran is complete, it is all a Muslim needs. It is the final instalment of the word of Allah delivered by the angel Gabriel. If Muslims stick to the Quran there would be no sects, no sectarian violence. Islam would be strong and undivided. Maybe people don't want simplicity but factionalism and war. People are predatory animals and love to fight, so I can't see anything changing unless God changes people.
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IAmZamzam
03-01-2013, 02:10 AM
Did somebody actually start this thread off with a statistic saying, "1 in 10,000 babies die?" You do realize that gives you a 99.99% chance, right?
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Iceee
03-01-2013, 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Did somebody actually start this thread off with a statistic saying, "1 in 10,000 babies die?" You do realize that gives you a 99.99% chance, right?
???99%???
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Land.Of.Pure
03-01-2013, 07:20 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Babies?. In Indonesia the boys circumcised when they are 5-12 years old. Circumcise babies is not suggested here.
Just as a piece of medical information... There's a book of surgery "Bailey and Love" yes that's the name of book of surgery very common in medical schools.

It states under "Penile Cancer" that it is found exclusively in un-circumcised males... But also say that circumcision after the age 6 does not make significant difference in incidence-rate of penile cancer... i.e. it's better to get it done before the age of 6.
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Insaanah
03-01-2013, 11:15 AM
Originally Posted by Karl
Maybe you are right, the Quran is complete, it is all a Muslim needs.
The Qur'an tells you to follow the sunnah, and warns against not following it. I hope you will not allow yourself to be influenced by beliefs which, while claiming to follow the Qur'an, clearly ignore certain parts of it, picking and choosing those which seem to suit, and misinterpreting others. You cannot be a Qur'anist and follow the Qur'an properly. The two are mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by Karl
If Muslims stick to the Quran there would be no sects, no sectarian violence. Islam would be strong and undivided.
Allah revealed the Qur'an to the Prophet :saws: and inspired to him and taught him the sunnah, which, as per Allah's command, he :saws: and his companions, the righteous predecessors and the vast majority of the Muslims follow. So, what you're implying is, Allah and the Prophet :saws: got it wrong. We seek Allah's refuge from that. Rasoolullah :saws: said that as long as we hold fast to the book of Allah, and his sunnah, we will not go astray. It is only when Muslims have not followed these properly or have discarded one or the other, that new fangled groups and sects have appeared, and disunity has occurred.

I'm going to close this thread, because it is going nowhere, with the Qur'anist here conveniently ignoring all the points being made, and not reading the information being supplied, which proves from the Qur'an itself, that you must follow the sunnah of the Prophet :saws:.
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