Are the sisters getting it right?

[MrSlave]

I came across an article in the Spectator about the launch of the Centre for Secular Space where Muslim and ex-muslim women campaign for greater freedoms. Has anyone heard of this group?

I wish I could post a link but I can't.

[جوري]

What 'greater freedoms' are these alleged Ex Muslim women having that Muslim women aren't? you don't have to post a link to give us the quips in a nutshell!

best,

[Periwinkle18]

hmm nope havnt heard abt it

[MrSlave]

What 'greater freedoms' are these alleged Ex Muslim women having that Muslim women aren't? you don't have to post a link to give us the quips in a nutshell!

Equality?

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[جوري]

Equality?

equality in what exactly? Perhaps a little compare contrast would serve as an aid?

best,

[Iceee]

I came across an article in the Spectator about the launch of the Centre for Secular Space where Muslim and ex-muslim women campaign for greater freedoms. Has anyone heard of this group?

I wish I could post a link but I can't.

Equality?

Keep talking... I'm listening.

[Periwinkle18]

equality in what exactly? Perhaps a little compare contrast would serve as an aid?

best,

dunno y I have a feeling he's gng to talk abt the rights of men n women

[جوري]

dunno y I have a feeling he's gng to talk abt the rights of men n women

In the Olympics or hockey? lol

[hur575]

Equality?

Like the one on the left ?

[Periwinkle18]

In the Olympics or hockey? lol

haha good one

[MrSlave]

I wish I could post links. I am trying to do a hundred and one things this evening. I am a big fan of human rights activist Maryam Namadzie as well. Anyone heard of her and her "One law for all campaign"? It seems of a similar ilk to the Centre for Secular Space although she is most definitely an ex-muslim.

[جوري]

I wish I could post links.

As stated.. post for us what you think is a freedom in the west & contrast it to what isn't found in the Muslim world.. There's no point to links if you know the facts,

best,

[hur575]

Most ex muslim woman, try to raise the issue of equality, I think it is some kind of justification for leaving Islam, as it is the most annoying label that anti muslims try to stick it on us. We are free, we can work, study, and live a life of freedom because we are slave to Allah only, not to society, or fashion, or all the sad things most woman are slave to, so for me, it really annoys me when people try to stick that label, I dress modestly ( my choice), I am not slave to society ( my choice).so for ex-muslims and anti Muslims, try to find other woman to liberate, Islam has given us our freedom.

[Qurratul Ayn]

I am a big fan of human rights activist Maryam Namadzie as well.

OK. Now she is one hater of all religions especially Islam and will find any excuse to attack it, make malicious accusations, promote Atheism and on top of that she gets credit for it; she was selected one of the top 45 women of the year 2007 in the magazine Elle Quebec (the French version of Elle) No surprises there, eh?

She's the spokesperson for "One Law for All Campaign" and it is opposes faith based laws and is against implementing Shariah law in Great Britain.

[جوري]

I certainly don't want Non-Muslims speaking on my behalf or for me.

[Qurratul Ayn]

I certainly don't want Non-Muslims speaking on my behalf or for me.

Likewise. I'm with you there.

[Amat Allah]

Alhamdulilah, I have all my rights as a muslim female, living happily like a princess and I am free with everything i do and all decisions I am taking all Praise, Thanks and Glory be to Allah Who honored me with this perfect and beautiful religion...Alhamdulilah always and forever till death and after it too :statisfie

[MrSlave]

That is Maryam. You sound a little threatened by her stance. Why would anyone choose to be a slave to a deity? Why would any deity worth worshiping require such obedience under threat of eternal pain? I really don't get it. As for freedom, the west still has a long way to go before women are seen as equals but I fear that aspects if Islam are still stuck in the middle ages and if the media is to be believed, there are many who would choose to keep it there.

I am fed-up reading justifications as to why men should be able to have four wives, why women enjoy hiding themselves in public and why women don't really want to drive. This is why I am here, to try and get a different perspective. To find out if there is such a thing as a moderate muslim, if people can be muslim without believing in god and what changes you would like to see.

[Qurratul Ayn]

You sound a little threatened by her stance.

I take it you're implying that to me? As I've written a little bit about who she is?

I laughed at that comment. Lol indeed

[MrSlave]

I certainly don't want Non-Muslims speaking on my behalf or for me.

If she were still a Muslim, I doubt she would be allowed to be so vocal.

[Qurratul Ayn]

Why would anyone choose to be a slave to a deity? Why would any deity worth worshiping require such obedience under threat of eternal pain? I really don't get it.

Why don't you check out the sections New Muslims & Discover Islam, they may be able to help you understand, even if it is a little bit

Read other sources rather than wholly relying on the media

[Ramadan90]

Like the one on the left ?

Another troll? *side-eye*

You need to check your facts. Islam is all about justice. What people do and what Islam says is diffrent.

[MrSlave]

You need to check your facts. Islam is all about justice. What people do and what Islam says is diffrent.

That sounds like a cop-out to me. Islam is perfect but people interpret it wrongly? Is that what you mean?

[Futuwwa]

That is Maryam. You sound a little threatened by her stance. Why would anyone choose to be a slave to a deity?

Slavery is not chosen, it is just a state that is. If there's a choice involved, it is not slavery.

If we postulate an omnipotent deity, it follows that everyone is a slave of that deity. Omnipotence implies absolute power, which negates the freedom of everyone else. You are not free if anything you do, anything at all, will only happen if God allows it. At most, you'll have the illusion of freedom simply because of God's apparent choice not to stop you.

[hur575]

Another troll? *side-eye*

You need to check your facts. Islam is all about justice. What people do and what Islam says is diffrent.

is this post aimed at me?? you calling me troll??

[جوري]

If she were still a Muslim, I doubt she would be allowed to be so vocal.

Oh and who would stop her? I have only ever seen Non-Muslims vocal in bad manners, debuachery, *****dom, and acrid useless sarcasm. Not everyone wishes to behave like an animal but I doubt anyone really cares.. What concerns the clouds from the barking of the dogs?

best,

[جوري]

That is Maryam. You sound a little threatened by her stance. Why would anyone choose to be a slave to a deity? .

Better than slavery to a system at least with :Allah: :swt: we get to keep our dignity and he ever elevates us for it. His law establishes beyt al'mal.. what does a kaffir system establish?

Oh yes, physicists and engineers bagging groceries or are homeless whereas wh0res make millions for passing out their sex tapes.. If that's your brand of freedom then thanks but no thanks.

[Ramadan90]

is this post aimed at me?? you calling me troll??

Wrong person.:D Sorry

[Ramadan90]

That sounds like a cop-out to me. Islam is perfect but people interpret it wrongly? Is that what you mean?

That is exactly what I said. It is not a cop-out, it is the truth.

[MrSlave]

At least the kaffir system, with all its imperfections can produce physicists. Tell me what Islam has contributed to the advancement of science over the last few hundred years.

[MrSlave]

That is exactly what I said. It is not a cop-out, it is the truth.

It is your truth. It is not mine. It also negates any criticism of your faith.

[Futuwwa]

At least the kaffir system, with all its imperfections can produce physicists. Tell me what Islam has contributed to the advancement of science over the last few hundred years.

Tell me how many great scientists Western civilization produced during the Early Middle Ages :p

[Scimitar]

Mr Deity,

as you can see here, the sisters on this forum can more than rebuttal an attempt to undermine their freedoms. They are critical thinkers here, and are able to determine the wests attempt claim that the Muslim women have no rights :D

Some orthodox study into Islam will enlighten you to the fact that Muslim women have more rights over their men than vice versa. Not just that, but also the very fact that women in Muslim countries are not second class citizens.

As for apostate shills who claim they know more about Islamic rulings than scholars do, they can take a hike - we're just simply not interested in wasting our precious time discussing matters of absolutely no importance to us, nor do they affect our lives in the slightest.

Truth be told, the pic posted on a previous page defining equality and justice, about spells it our for me.

Scimi

[MrSlave]

From what I can gather, you are stating that you are free to be slaves to Allah and are very good at defending the inequalities that are most apparant to us shill apostates. I never said that Muslim women have no rights, but even you must admit that in some Islamic theocracies, their rights are negligible. Do you defend Saudi Arabia as a progressive model of Islam?

As I see it, faith is an accident of birth. Allah seems to leave Christians well alone and vice versa.

[Ramadan90]

At least the kaffir system, with all its imperfections can produce physicists. Tell me what Islam has contributed to the advancement of science over the last few hundred years.

Okey, you are obviously ignorant. I have no time for nonsense. Bye!

[Futuwwa]

From what I can gather, you are stating that you are free to be slaves to Allah and are very good at defending the inequalities that are most apparant to us shill apostates. I never said that Muslim women have no rights, but even you must admit that in some Islamic theocracies, their rights are negligible. Do you defend Saudi Arabia as a progressive model of Islam?

Well, see my first post in this thread. I recognize that I am a slave, and that the very existence of an omnipotent deity implies as much.

As I see it, faith is an accident of birth. Allah seems to leave Christians well alone and vice versa.

You'll be amazed to find out that there actually are people who have chosen their own religion. I did. When she found out, my mother was not a happy camper.

[جوري]

are very good at defending the inequalities

And you're yet to define what those are don't you think?

[جوري]

At least the kaffir system, with all its imperfections can produce physicists. Tell me what Islam has contributed to the advancement of science over the last few hundred years.

the physicists in your kaffir system are Muslims. Go ahead to any hospital or company and see who its top scientests are!

best,

[جوري]

It would also pay if you'd some research btw before you write:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...y-country.html

best,

[Scimitar]

Okey, you are obviously ignorant. I have no time for nonsense. Bye!

Allow me. :D

First of all Mr Deity,

If you'd studied comparative history, you'd know that those 6 million Jews who were apparently killed during WW2 was a false figure, the real fugure hovers somewhere between 240 - 280,000 killed. Whereas, if you look at the death toll of Muslims during just world war 1 - that far exceeded 6 million, and ww2 was worse. Let's travel back further, to say, the early 18th century yes?

Ever heard of a character named Charles Hempher? He was the British spy who posed as an Arab and befriended the Saud, he then went on to promise the Saud that he will make them Kings of Arabia if they helped the british government overthrow the Caliphate - you'd know this as the Ottoman Empire. The Caliphate is akin to the papacy in Rome. Muslims too are supposed to have a pope like figure - but you know what? since 1924, we haven't.

Ever since Hempher and his mottley crew of Northern Gog and Magogs entered into Arabian lands, they caused havoc everhwere, and the British plan to make the Arabian lands subservient to the Biritsh and now very Amercian interests, has fruited to ensure that the Muslims the world over are always on the back foot.

But you know, God's people always seem to be on the back foot...

....rigfht up til the last moment, and history is testament to that.

I'd ask you to reflect on an entire people, who had the rug pulled out from under them, and are now asked "where do you stand? and why?" that's bloody cheeky.

Scimi

[MrSlave]

You'll be amazed to find out that there actually are people who have chosen their own religion. I did. When she found out, my mother was not a happy camper.

I bet she wasn't. May I ask what was it about this religion that attracted you?

[جوري]

still waiting for a reply to post number 37!

[MrSlave]

A Holocaust denier. I am shocked. What can of closed-minded slaves of self-induced destiny have I stumbled across? In less than a day you have managed to reinforce every view I hold on the danger of Islam to a progressige free-thinking society and how its leaders subjegate the masses for their own ends. The rabbit hole runs deep.

[جوري]

Are you here for a soliloquy of self-aggrandizement? or to enforce your own prejudices with the desire for a supporting response without a discussion or else you're ready to dispense with your barrage of affronts or simply to troll or what?

[White Rose]

In less than a day you have managed to reinforce every view I hold on the danger of Islam to a progressige free-thinking society and how its leaders subjegate the masses for their own ends. The rabbit hole runs deep.

That's because that was your intention from the beginning. Sorry, no can do.

[MrSlave]

Are you here for a soliloquy of self-aggrandizement? or to enforce your own prejudices with the desire for a supporting response without a discussion or else you're ready to dispense with your barrage of affronts or simply to troll or what?

Are you a Holocaust denier too? I came here to challenge my prejudices. I am in danger of leaving with those prejudices in tact and validated. So far I have learned that you are all slaves to Allah, that women in Islam are more free than kaffir women, that Islam is perfect, that feminists who challenge Islam are doing it to justify why they left and I am a troll for challenging your comfort zone.

[جوري]

Are you a Holocaust denier too?

What brought the holocaust to a thread about 'sisters getting it right'? The holocaust is a Jewy/German problem I don't see its relevance here does anyone else?

I came here to challenge my prejudices.

Not really!

I am in danger of leaving with those prejudices in tact and validated

Rather you project your own prejudices with only one expectation. You accuse without reference or backup you infer from your own premise. I don't think you're interested at all in the community here!

So far I have learned that you are all slaves to Allah, that women in Islam are more free than kaffir women, that Islam is perfect, that feminists who challenge Islam are doing it to justify why they left and I am a troll for challenging your comfort zone.

That is just the thing you haven't challenged or done anything than foam at the mouth. I am still waiting for you to make good on your ''challenges''!

best,

[Qurratul Ayn]

I came here to challenge my prejudices.

Well then read through old thread using the search engine also check the sections New Muslims & Discover Islam out. They will help you if you're actually keen on learning and gaining a different perspective of Islaam and will give you an insight into the decisions and changes New Muslims went through

Then pose questions to the related topics and In Shaa Allaah (God-willing) you will find your answers.

Seriously

[ardianto]

I am fed-up reading justifications as to why men should be able to have four wives, why women enjoy hiding themselves in public and why women don't really want to drive. This is why I am here, to try and get a different perspective. To find out if there is such a thing as a moderate muslim, if people can be muslim without believing in god and what changes you would like to see.

Volunteers from Red Crescent Indonesia. Look, how many females there.

Working side by side with males in giving free health service.

Come to Indonesia, the country that has largest number of Muslim people, and you will be surprised when you see a fact that many Muslim women are working in public and drive the cars.

[جوري]

Working side by side with males in giving free health service.

Are you actually dignifying his delusions with a response? Do We have something to prove to this troll who has nothing but accusations and assertions in lieu of queries? sob7an Allah

[Scimitar]

A Holocaust denier. I am shocked. *enter dribble here*

Yes, A holocaust denier. And one who can challenge any western academic in order to prove that it was a hoax, and that only a fraction of those mentioned were ever put to death.

Who are you then? Someone who just accepts everything they read as long as it's from papa smurf sources? :D You need to try harder than this, this is too easy man.

You seem to have lost the intent of my post, maybe you just don't know how to read properly? or maybe you just tried to deflect the issue i raised in response to your question... or maybe, you are just now realising you joined the wrong Islamic forum and your tired methods are known to us... take your pick.

We've already decided :)

Scimi

[ardianto]

Are you actually dignifying his delusions with a response? Do We have something to prove to this troll who has nothing but accusations and assertions in lieu of arguments? sob7an Allah

Maybe he is troll, but there are non-Muslims in the West who still thinking that Muslim women are restricted to work in public and not allowed to drive cars. This is an open forum which everyone can visit.

One picture is worth as thousands words, isn't it?.

[MrSlave]

What brought the holocaust to a thread about 'sisters getting it right'? The holocaust is a Jewy/German problem I don't see its relevance here does anyone else?

I didn't bring it up.

Rather you project your own prejudices with only one expectation. You accuse without reference or backup you infer from your own premise. I don't think you're interested at all in the community here!


That is just the thing you haven't challenged or done anything than foam at the mouth. I am still waiting for you to make good on your ''challenges''!

best,

Ok, I see your point but I don't feel I am getting much in return. I am at the opposite of most of your views and assertions but I am trying to engage. It's getting late here. I will see what I can do tomorrow.

[جوري]

Maybe he is troll, but there are non-Muslims in the West who still thinking that Muslim women are restricted to work in public and not allowed to drive cars. This is an open forum which everyone can visit.

One picture is worth as thousands words, isn't it?.

It is frightening in fact for someone to proclaim to be open minded and at the same time be that ignorant.

:w:

[Scimitar]

Oh I believe he's "open minded" like he claims he is, but I also believe "his brains fell out" if you know what I mean :D

Scimi

[جوري]

I didn't bring it up.

Then what do you call this:

Are you a Holocaust denier too?

I must have dreamt it.

Ok, I see your point but I don't feel I am getting much in return.

You only get out what you put in!

I am at the opposite of most of your views and assertions but I am trying to engage

You don't know anything about my views and hazard say most of the people here. I have already stated. I don't want a non-Muslim speaking for me, and if you were truly interested in what we've to say you'd not make assertions you'd pose questions. Or at least as requested a little compare contrast so we know what it is that has you so hot & bothered.

[Amat Allah]

I always ask this and I wish you do answer it honestly;

If you my brother would make a wooden box or whatever then oneday you have decided to burn it; throw it in the sea, hide it, give it to someone else or whatever; would it be the right of others to object, stop you or take that wooden box from you by force and do whatever they wanna do to it?

[Abu Loren]

WOW What have I missed? You go to sleep then wake up and THIS happens.

So our cute and cuddly FilthyJew had other intentions than learning about Islam. No surprise there then.

[Ramadan90]

We all know what OP's agenda is with his ignorant statements. Stop falling for this troll.

[Futuwwa]

I bet she wasn't. May I ask what was it about this religion that attracted you?

I came to the conclusion that it is true. Simple as that.

[Futuwwa]

A Holocaust denier. I am shocked. What can of closed-minded slaves of self-induced destiny have I stumbled across? In less than a day you have managed to reinforce every view I hold on the danger of Islam to a progressige free-thinking society and how its leaders subjegate the masses for their own ends. The rabbit hole runs deep.

Perhaps you should convince your fellow Jews to stop Nakba denial. Then we can talk about Muslim holocaust denial :p

[Futuwwa]

Are you a Holocaust denier too? I came here to challenge my prejudices. I am in danger of leaving with those prejudices in tact and validated. So far I have learned that you are all slaves to Allah, that women in Islam are more free than kaffir women, that Islam is perfect, that feminists who challenge Islam are doing it to justify why they left and I am a troll for challenging your comfort zone.

ProTip: If people react with annoyance at what you post, it does not prove that you are asking hard questions or speaking hard, unpopular truths, or that the annoyance is due to insecurity or intellectual discomfort. A much more common cause is that you are simply being rude and sanctimonious.

If you seriously want to "challenge your prejudices", it'd help to be a bit less provocative. And to drop the attitude that your views are the only true ones, and that to avert the "danger" of you leaving with your prejudices intact, we'd have to roll over and agree with you in everything.

[Abu Loren]

And to drop the attitude that your views are the only true ones, and that to avert the "danger" of you leaving with your prejudices intact, we'd have to roll over and agree with you in everything.

It's called arrogance bro.

[MustafaMc]

That is Maryam. You sound a little threatened by her stance. Why would anyone choose to be a slave to a deity? Why would any deity worth worshiping require such obedience under threat of eternal pain? I really don't get it.

You really don't get it, do you? If there really is One God (as ALL Muslims believe), then we are a part of His creation. The Qur'an tells us that the purpose for creating mankind is for them to worship Him. You are completely free to not submit your person to serving and obeying God in the same manner that I am free to submit to His guidance. If you choose to be rebellious and earn the wrath of Allah (subhana wa ta ala), then I hope that you remember to voice your complaints about your perceived 'injustice' on Judgement Day before Rabb il-Alameen, Maliki Yawmi Deen.

I am fed-up reading justifications as to why men should be able to have four wives,

... and how many Muslims do you know who have more than one wife?

why women enjoy hiding themselves in public and why women don't really want to drive.

Oh, I see you want to liberate Muslim women from their hijab so you can oogle over their bodies exposed through tight and revealing clothing.

This is why I am here, to try and get a different perspective. To find out if there is such a thing as a moderate muslim, if people can be muslim without believing in god and what changes you would like to see.

This statement is most revealing. In other words you want us to become a Jew. If you had any understanding whatsoever, you would know that it is literally impossible to "be a muslim without believing in god". I have actually spoken at length with a Rabbi (Reform) and I was shocked to learn that believing in God is NOT a requirement for someone to be considered a Jew. She (yes, the Rabbi was a woman) also wrote/spoke about how the rights of women to pray publically at the Wailing Wall were being repressed by Israel. So Jewish women are still fighting for their 'liberation', too, and you want to see Muslimahs do the same in order to gain the right to dress as scantily as possible (bikinis, tank-tops, lowcut blouses, tight jeans, short skirts, etc.), to marry non-Muslim men, lead men in prayer, etc. In other words you want to separate Muslims from Islam.

[MustafaMc]

At least the kaffir system, with all its imperfections can produce physicists. Tell me what Islam has contributed to the advancement of science over the last few hundred years.

Do you not know that while Eurpoe was still in the Dark Ages that Muslims were at the forefront of science and mathematics? It is true that since the late 1400's European civilization came to dominate and the Caliphate was on the decline until its collapse after WWI. But then again, the 'kaffir system', as you say, has also promoted such non-logical theories as naturalistic evolution and the creation and use of horrific WMD by those same physicists you are so proud of.

[MustafaMc]

I bet she wasn't. May I ask what was it about this religion that attracted you?

I, too, am a convert from Christianity to Islam. Who are you to say, "I bet she wasn't" when someone says their mother was upset to learn of their conversion to Islam? My family was very upset with me as well and I can share a few things about my personal experiences to illustrate this, but I won't out of respect for them.

[aamirsaab]

...

I am fed-up reading justifications as to why men should be able to have four wives,

4 wives is an option - not a commandment.

why women enjoy hiding themselves in public

Covering yourself up or wearing clothes is not hiding yourself in public. Veils have been part of Western fashion for quite some time and are present in almost every single culture across the globe. Female orthodox jews wear a type of veil very similar to both Hijab and Niqab. As do Sikh and Hindu women. I don't know why so many people have an issue with Muslim women choosing to wearing a piece of cloth that almost every other religious woman on the planet wear...

and why women don't really want to drive.

What are you talking about? A Saudi fatwa imposed in a specific area of S.A that is not legally binding in any way shape or form and can be ignored?

If you have questions, by all means ask. But don't act like you know my religion.

[Muhammad]

Greetings (insert suitable name here),

You have received many excellent replies in this thread. I think they more than adequately address your posts. If you are truly here to learn or have a meaningful discussion, the manner you have adopted in this thread is certainly not the way to go about it. I suggest you start again with any serious questions. If, however, you are simply here to provoke negative reaction, you are wasting everyone's time and will not last very long.