Yes, Atheists do Exist.

[Pygoscelis]

In a thread that was started here (so I posted in it) but has since been moved to a Muslim fellowship (advice and support) area of the board (where I won't intrude), YusufNoor made this interesting post.

looks at Pygo's post...

bangs head against the wall

and again...

you never cease to amaze me, but this really takes the cake!

of course, as i've stated before, my opinion is that there is no such thing as an atheist; a really radical agnostic maybe...and THOSE you will find in every religion as well.

i'm sure that you realize that, in Islam, it is not acceptable for you 2 to date or marry. but i feel "tempted" to ask, "you don't think that the girl and her family are nutjobs simply by being Muslim?" wouldn't the idea of her worshiping or mostly-worshiping God repulse an (alleged) atheist?

or am i biased by what i see about (alleged) atheists in the media? the obviously believe in God, they just hate Him.

*start a thread*
*start a thread*
*start a thread*

This is not the first time I have seen religious people flatly stating that non-believers don't exist. It perplexes me, because here I am, a non-believer. I am an atheist. Telling yourself I believe in God and just hate him may help you rationalize things for yourself, but I know what I think and what I believe, and what I don't believe. Telling me I believe something I don't and that I feel something I don't is just a weird thing to do.

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts. Hating something that you don't believe in makes no sense.

When you see outspoken and anti-religious atheists (which is not the majority of atheists) speak against religions, often with disgust and hatred, you are not seeing them hate the Gods. You are seeing them hate the belief systems and the actions of the followers. It isn't the same thing. The closest you will get to them actually hating the Gods would be them judging the Gods as literary characters, like they would Robin Hood or Darth Vader.

Personally, since I was asked, no, I am not such an atheist that is disgusted by people worshiping pretend Gods. I see some therepeutic use to it and I see how it has comforted and given some extra sense of purpose and belonging to people I love. I would never want to take somebody's religion away from them if it offers them this and if they don't go crazy with it and don't harm anybody with it.

I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.

[IAmZamzam]

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts.

Let me get this straight. You're telling us to accept that you are quite sincere about thinking of God as being completely on par with fairies...

and also expecting us to think of the sincerity involved in this kind of elitist blanket statement as being...a good thing.

I can't believe my eyes. Even your pleas for tolerance contain intolerance.

Merely telling somebody that you're not setting out to make them angry is about as likely to have an effect on whether they get angry--or even, for that matter, on whether they rightly should--as adding "no offense" is to make hate speech sound less offensive, or "don't get me wrong" is to somehow magically prevent someone from getting you wrong. Disclaimers are not "get out of jail free" cards, and neither are (alleged) good intentions.

[Abu Loren]

In a thread that was started here (so I posted in it) but has since been moved to a Muslim fellowship (advice and support) area of the board (where I won't intrude), YusufNoor made this interesting post.



This is not the first time I have seen religious people flatly stating that non-believers don't exist. It perplexes me, because here I am, a non-believer. I am an atheist. Telling yourself I believe in God and just hate him may help you rationalize things for yourself, but I know what I think and what I believe, and what I don't believe. Telling me I believe something I don't and that I feel something I don't is just a weird thing to do.

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts. Hating something that you don't believe in makes no sense.

When you see outspoken and anti-religious atheists (which is not the majority of atheists) speak against religions, often with disgust and hatred, you are not seeing them hate the Gods. You are seeing them hate the belief systems and the actions of the followers. It isn't the same thing. The closest you will get to them actually hating the Gods would be them judging the Gods as literary characters, like they would Robin Hood or Darth Vader.

Personally, since I was asked, no, I am not such an atheist that is disgusted by people worshiping pretend Gods. I see some therepeutic use to it and I see how it has comforted and given some extra sense of purpose and belonging to people I love. I would never want to take somebody's religion away from them if it offers them this and if they don't go crazy with it and don't harm anybody with it.

I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.

Dear whoever you are

You have just proven the power of the free will that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'als has given to mankind. It is your prerogative whether you believe in God or not. You have stated here uncategorically that you don't, and I applaud you for being so strong in your faith or not as the case may be.

But you must know this. God Almighty Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has given us information and instructions for mankind. One of them is to believe in Him and to worship Him. So by your unbelief there are consequences, if you didn't know them before then I am telling you now that ALL unbelievers in Him will go to hell fire, there are no exceptions to this rule. You may believe this or you may not but it's your choice and we now know what it is.

I don't know if you've ever read any of the scriptures that God has sent down to us, even the corruputed ones. When God Almighty Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala destroyed nations that had sinned He destroyed them completely but saving a handful of the believers from those affected nations. This is also an indication of how many people will go to hell. Out of the billions of human beings that had walked this earth only a handful of those will enter paradise. These chosen few had special qualities. These are all detailed in the Holy Qur'an I suggest you go and read it Inshaa Allah.

In my estimation all atheists are arrogant people who thinks that they know better than God Almighty.

By the way, are you a scientist?

[Pygoscelis]

Let me get this straight. You're telling us to accept that you are quite sincere about thinking of God as being completely on par with fairies...

Correct.

and also expecting us to think of the sincerity involved in this kind of elitist blanket statement as being...a good thing.

Correct.

You would rather I lie?

If you take offence to my not believing in something you believe in, I have no way of controlling that. I didn't choose not to believe. I simply don't, just as I presume you don't believe in ghosts (if that is the case). I can understand you thinking me blind, etc. But to be offended by my mere lack of belief makes little sense to me.

And why do you say elitist? What is elitist about my saying I don't believe in the supernatural?

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[Pygoscelis]

But you must know this. God Almighty Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has given us information and instructions for mankind. One of them is to believe in Him and to worship Him.

But I don't know that. I don't believe that even a little bit.

So by your unbelief there are consequences, if you didn't know them before then I am telling you now that ALL unbelievers in Him will go to hell fire, there are no exceptions to this rule.

I don't believe that either.

You may believe this or you may not but it's your choice and we now know what it is.

No, it isn't my choice. Without evidence I find convincing, I'm not going to believe. It doesn't matter how hard I try. Can you believe something you don't simply by trying? Could you believe you are an elephant if doing so would save your life? I don't think so.

In my estimation all atheists are arrogant people who thinks that they know better than God Almighty.

They don't believe God Almighty exists, so of course they think they know better than something that doesn't exist. That isn't arrogance.

By the way, are you a scientist?

Not by trade. But I do enjoy science, sure.

[Abu Loren]

But I don't know that. I don't believe that even a little bit.

Of course you know, you are in an Islamic forum.

I don't believe that either.

Of course you do you must have seen threads here where people engage in debate about heaven and hell.

No, it isn't my choice. It doesn't matter how hard I try, I'm not going to believe. Can you believe something you don't simply by trying? Could you believe you are an elephant if doing so would save your life? I don't think so.

I suppose one needs guidance. I used to believe as you do but then something happened.

They don't believe God Almighty exists, so of course they think they know better than something that doesn't exist. That isn't arrogance.

Ok fair enough atheists don't believe God exists. I only wish I could convince you somehow but it isn't up to me I suppose.

[IAmZamzam]

Even when an atheist flat out admits to total disbelief proper he still insists on calling what he has a "lack of belief". You people are never going to give up with that phrase, are you?

Look, BELIEVE what you want to but be careful how you express it. You've just compared someone else's most deeply cherished beliefs to fairies and ghosts and then you asked how anyone can possibly think of you as an elitist. Are you sure you understand what makes you blind in my eyes? Is it really that hard to connect the dots here? Or am I trying to describe the difference between green and blue to a man with no eyes?

[tearose]

I see some therepeutic use to it and I see how it has comforted and given some extra sense of purpose and belonging to people I love. I would never want to take somebody's religion away from them if it offers them this and if they don't go crazy with it and don't harm anybody with it.
I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.

The problem is that all of the things you are talking about are benefits of following a religion, but not the reason for doing so. We follow the path of Islam because we believe it is the truth, and it is what we are required to do and our purpose. Of course we derive comfort from that, but comfort is not the main reason for believing.
Similarly, if you follow some of the Islamic teachings, like not dealing in usury, but you don't do it for the sake of Allah, you don't get any reward for that in the afterlife. I would hope that if you see wisdom in the principles of Islam then it will lead you one day, in sha Allah, to realise that they came from Allah.

[Pygoscelis]

Of course you do you must have seen threads here where people engage in debate about heaven and hell.

Just because you read about something on an online forum doesn't mean you believe it. I have also seen threads on internet forums where people debate Star Trek vs Star Wars. That doesn't mean I believe in Klingons or The Force :)

I suppose one needs guidance. I used to believe as you do but then something happened.

Your belief in Allah and Islam clearly means a lot to you so I'm glad you found your way to it. Others, such as myself, are living happy lives without it. To each their own.

I only started this thread to make it clear that atheists are not arrogant and angry people who hate God. Atheists, by definition, are just people who don't believe in God. That does of course include people who are arrogant and angry, and some who hate particular religions (or religion in general), but that isn't the same thing, and that isn't atheists in general.

Peace be upon you.

[GuestFellow]

Of course atheists exist. Look there is a topic created by a member who is an atheist. DUH! = They simply lack belief in a higher being.

[tearose]

It doesn't matter how hard I try. Can you believe something you don't simply by trying?

Not by just trying, but you could open yourself up more to the possibility of the existence of Allah and that he can guide you. Seriously consider the message of the Qur'an with an open heart and without preconceptions. Most of your posts give the impression that your mind is already made up, so I don't know if you have ever seriously tried to search for truth. If you read the Qur'an you will see in sha Allah that what we are being called to is something much more significant which can't be compared to any of the comparisons you have made.
Allah guides whom he wills.

[Pygoscelis]

Even when an atheist flat out admits to total disbelief proper he still insists on calling what he has a "lack of belief". You people are never going to give up with that phrase, are you?

It isn't the same thing. I do not know with 100% certainty that there are no supernatural beings. I do, however, not believe that there are. Just like I do not know for certain that I am not on TV right now, but I do not believe that I am. I do find me being on TV far more likely though, so maybe that's not a good analogy.

Look, BELIEVE what you want to but be careful how you express it. You've just compared someone else's most deeply cherished beliefs to fairies and ghosts and then you asked how anyone can possibly think of you as an elitist. Are you sure you understand what makes you blind in my eyes? Is it really that hard to connect the dots here? Or am I trying to describe the difference between green and blue to a man with no eyes?

I find it more plausible that I could be on TV than that there could be supernatural beings like ghosts or Gods. To show I actually don't believe (and you can see how I have to do that, since posts are claiming I actually do believe) I made a comparison to something I find equally unlikely to exist. I chose Ghosts and Faeries for good reason, instead of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, etc. I chose Ghosts and Faeries because there are people who believe in ghosts just as strongly as you believe in God, and there were (and maybe still are) people who believed in Faeries just as strongly as well.

Making such a comparison seems to be the only way to get through to believers that I actually don't believe. And even then, people will continue to insist that atheists don't exist and that we are in denial or that we are rebelling against God, etc. We exist. I am one.

[Pygoscelis]

Of course atheists exist. Look there is a topic created by a member who is an atheist. DUH! = They simply lack belief in a higher being.

Bingo!

You win a cookie. :D

[GuestFellow]

Bingo!

You win a cookie. :D

YAY I WIN. LOVE YOU *HUGS*

I will give you a cake.

[YusufNoor]

In a thread that was started here (so I posted in it) but has since been moved to a Muslim fellowship (advice and support) area of the board (where I won't intrude), YusufNoor made this interesting post.

This is not the first time I have seen religious people flatly stating that non-believers don't exist. It perplexes me, because here I am, a non-believer. I am an atheist. Telling yourself I believe in God and just hate him may help you rationalize things for yourself, but I know what I think and what I believe, and what I don't believe. Telling me I believe something I don't and that I feel something I don't is just a weird thing to do.

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts. Hating something that you don't believe in makes no sense.

When you see outspoken and anti-religious atheists (which is not the majority of atheists) speak against religions, often with disgust and hatred, you are not seeing them hate the Gods. You are seeing them hate the belief systems and the actions of the followers. It isn't the same thing. The closest you will get to them actually hating the Gods would be them judging the Gods as literary characters, like they would Robin Hood or Darth Vader.

Personally, since I was asked, no, I am not such an atheist that is disgusted by people worshiping pretend Gods. I see some therepeutic use to it and I see how it has comforted and given some extra sense of purpose and belonging to people I love. I would never want to take somebody's religion away from them if it offers them this and if they don't go crazy with it and don't harm anybody with it.

I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.

misunderstood again :embarrass

i meant, tell us about you and the sister! :D

kind of a waste of time to talk about my opinion on atheism, cuz it ain't gonna change. the first part of the shahadah id there is no god (ilah) worthy of worship. it doesn't mean God specifically, an ilah is ANYTHING that you worship. if you are disobeying God, you are using guidelines and/or sentiments of your own instead of Allah's. therefore, you put yourself as a god. whatever rhyme, reason, logic you use to do it is therefore your belief system. that is your "religion". EVERYONE has a ilah of some sort, be it luck, fortune, fate, scientific reason, etc. An atheist is making the declaration that Allah doesn't exist. you CAN'T prove that! so, you are pretty sure maybe, but that is agnosticism. like i said, ain't no such thing as an atheist.

I would never want to take somebody's religion away from them if it offers them this and if they don't go crazy with it and don't harm anybody with it.

cool! i guess i see most (alleged) atheists as those who try to force their view on others. it is like they think that anyone who CAN believe in God is an idiot. i guess for not using whatever reason that they themselves used to come about their position.

were your mom and dad (allegedly) atheists?

how do you approach the subject with the sister? what do you do when it is time for prayer? if she decided at the last minute that she could not marry you because you are not a Muslim, would you accept that?

very curious :omg:

peace

[IAmZamzam]

It isn't the same thing. I do not know with 100% certainty that there are no supernatural beings. I do, however, not believe that there are. Just like I do not know for certain that I am not on TV right now, but I do not believe that I am. I do find me being on TV far more likely though, so maybe that's not a good analogy.

Okay, then, I guess most people “lack belief” in pretty much everything. We’re going to have to go to a lot of effort to redefine out terminology regarding most human viewpoints on every subject in the world, if it’s about total 100% certainly.

Come on, man! “Belief” and “sheer surety” are not synonyms! You’re better than this.

I find it more plausible that I could be on TV than that there could be supernatural beings like ghosts or Gods. To show I actually don't believe (and you can see how I have to do that, since posts are claiming I actually do believe) I made a comparison to something I find equally unlikely to exist. I chose Ghosts and Faeries for good reason, instead of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, etc. I chose Ghosts and Faeries because there are people who believe in ghosts just as strongly as you believe in God, and there were (and maybe still are) people who believed in Faeries just as strongly as well.

You want a skeptical analogy from a skeptic which doesn’t insult believers? It’s easy as pie to do. BAM! RIGHT HERE! Robert Lancaster’s “mile run” analogy. It can be fitted to all kinds of different situations, I reckon. It’s quite telling that he seemed to come up with it so effortlessly whereas most of the religious skeptics I talk to, like you, always gripe to me demanding to know what on earth they’re supposed to compare God to if not Santa Claus and fairies and flying spaghetti monsters. It’s so revealing regarding the nature of your psychologies, in fact, that it calls to mind what Stanhope said about how in life you meet personalities so extravagant that the boldest playwright would never venture to set them forth on the page. What you’re doing is nothing new, you know. It wasn’t even new in The Prophet’s own time:

While they call upon God for succour—‘Woe upon thee! Believe; surely God’s promise is true’; then he says, ‘This is naught but the fairy-tales of the ancients’—such men are they against whom has been realized the Word concerning nations that passed away before them, men and jinn alike; they were losers. (Qur’an 46:17-18, Arberry)

Making such a comparison seems to be the only way to get through to believers that I actually don't believe. And even then, people will continue to insist that atheists don't exist and that we are in denial or that we are rebelling against God, etc. We exist. I am one.

Has it occurred to you that you’re only digging yourself in deeper with these comparisons? That with all this elitist talk of fairies and ghosts maybe you’re making yourself sound more like it’s all about pride and not at all about “lack of belief”?

[sister herb]

Of course atheists exist. They are those whose haven´t find right path - yet. Why they are so interesting to tell how they are exist? Maybe Allah who sees to everyones deepest wishes and dreams has put them to looking for the truth.

Who knows.

:statisfie

[Karl]

I suppose it is easy not to believe in God/s if you haven't seen one or feel the presence of the divine power.

[Abu Loren]

Believe it or not Mr. atheist you lot will be in the majority as the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) tells us that religious knowledge will be lost towards the End of Days.

[BlackMamba]

This is not the first time I have seen religious people flatly stating that non-believers don't exist. It perplexes me, because here I am, a non-believer. I am an atheist. Telling yourself I believe in God and just hate him may help you rationalize things for yourself, but I know what I think and what I believe, and what I don't believe. Telling me I believe something I don't and that I feel something I don't is just a weird thing to do.

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts. Hating something that you don't believe in makes no sense.

When you see outspoken and anti-religious atheists (which is not the majority of atheists) speak against religions, often with disgust and hatred, you are not seeing them hate the Gods. You are seeing them hate the belief systems and the actions of the followers. It isn't the same thing. The closest you will get to them actually hating the Gods would be them judging the Gods as literary characters, like they would Robin Hood or Darth Vader.


I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.

Couple things I'd like to say

1) I do not think atheism based on the scientific method exists. You get a bunch of scientists and pseudo-scientists (mostly this) who come in an try to use science to somehow prove atheism. When in reality, atheism is more faith-based than really any religion out there. One must make a huge leap of faith when deciding to become an atheist. Going strictly by science, and no faith, one would probably land somewhere in agnosticism. But you are right in saying that atheism does exists. It is a belief-system just like Judaism, Christianity and so on.



2) You say you see danger in religion. Well, is that in religion, or in fundamentalism? Because fundamentalism is not in any way restricted to religion. It can occur in any group-phenomenon.

[Pygoscelis]

Okay, then, I guess most people “lack belief” in pretty much everything. We’re going to have to go to a lot of effort to redefine out terminology regarding most human viewpoints on every subject in the world, if it’s about total 100% certainly.

There are a few clear examples in this thread of why atheists have to say "lack of belief". I'd agree with you that it is rather silly, if not for this very predictable tactic theists take. Look in this very thread at the posts saying "you have to have a lot of faith to be an atheist, to be sure there is no God", etc. In reality you don't need any faith to be an atheist. You just have to not be convinced. I don't actively disbelieve, I just don't believe.

You want a skeptical analogy from a skeptic which doesn’t insult believers? It’s easy as pie to do. BAM! RIGHT HERE! Robert Lancaster’s “mile run” analogy.

I wasn't saying anything about shifting a burden of proof. I agree with him that it is impossible to falsify unfalsifiable claims, be they psychics or Gods, but that isn't what I was talking about. I was simply stating that there are people out there, like me, who don't believe in God. No more than you believe in something you have absolutely no belief in.... like ghosts (I presume).

What you’re doing is nothing new, you know. It wasn’t even new in The Prophet’s own time:

What I am doing is refuting the repeated claim on here that atheists don't exist. It is repeated a lot in this forum. It is repeated in this thread. I sometimes think some theists need to believe everybody secretly believes what they do, because if they didn't it would threaten their faith or something.

Has it occurred to you that you’re only digging yourself in deeper with these comparisons? That with all this elitist talk of fairies and ghosts maybe you’re making yourself sound more like it’s all about pride and not at all about “lack of belief”?

It wouldn't matter what I said for many of you here. The very fact that I don't share your beliefs makes me the enemy for some of you. I am writing for the others, some of whom have posted here, who are more willing to engage and less prone to seeking to take offence where none is meant.

[Pygoscelis]

misunderstood again :embarrass

i meant, tell us about you and the sister! :D

I'm pretty sure that topic is banned. My post was very quickly deleted and the thread was moved to another section to exclude me from posting in it. I'll respect the board's boundries.

were your mom and dad (allegedly) atheists?

My mom was an Anglican and my dad I am pretty sure was a closet atheist who pretended to be Anglican to please my mom.

how do you approach the subject with the sister? what do you do when it is time for prayer? if she decided at the last minute that she could not marry you because you are not a Muslim, would you accept that?

I would have no choice but to accept that. I would still love her and support her if she was ever in need.

[Pygoscelis]

I do not think atheism based on the scientific method exists. You get a bunch of scientists and pseudo-scientists (mostly this) who come in an try to use science to somehow prove atheism.

I have yet to meet such a person. How does one "prove" that an unfalsifiable thing doesn't exist?

When in reality, atheism is more faith-based than really any religion out there.

It doesn't take any faith at all.

One must make a huge leap of faith when deciding to become an atheist.

I didn't make a decision about it. No more than you made a decision not to believe you are a dolphin dreaming.

You say you see danger in religion. Well, is that in religion, or in fundamentalism? Because fundamentalism is not in any way restricted to religion. It can occur in any group-phenomenon.

I see both the good and the bad in religion. Since you asked, the bad I see is mostly about the authoritarianism and tribalism that a lot of religions foster. I get concerned when I see people mistaking obedience for morality and I get concerned when I see people loving the in group by hating the out group. I see this outside of religions, yes, of course, but I see it in religion more than anywhere else.

[MustafaMc]

This is not the first time I have seen religious people flatly stating that non-believers don't exist.

I agree with you that there are people who believe that God simply does not exist. To impose my opinion on you or to coerce you to believe that God does exist would contradict our belief that 'there is no compulsion in religion'.

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts. Hating something that you don't believe in makes no sense.

I see what you are saying and your honesty in stating your lack of faith does not offend me. You are not attacking my faith or belittling me for believing in something that you believe does not exist. The ayat where it says 'to you your religion and to me mine' applies equally to those without any religion as those with a religion different from mine. An analogy that I can make to illustrate your position is that I do not believe that God became a man, Jesus, and that Jesus was at the same time the Son of God. My disbelief about Jesus being God Incarnate is not a matter of choice as I grew up believing those statements to be true, but I read the Qur'an and I had an 'aha' moment of realization that the Christian concept of God made less sense than the Islamic concept of One God without father, mother, son, daughter, or equal. It is not a far stretch of the imagination that someone could go beyond that realization that Jesus is not God to simply believing that God does not exist. I will use the analogy of Santa Claus which many children sincerely believe exists, but no mentally competent adult believes he exists. You may look down upon theists as being irrational and child-like in believing in something you don't think exists, but I again see an analogy with how I perceive Christians as believing that Jesus was God Incarnate. Your opinion of me does not offend me.

The fundamental question beyond belief or not in God is, "Where did we come from and where are we going?" I believe that I am the direct result of an act of creation by God; whereas, I presume that you believe we evolved from a Common Ancestor through the natural process of evolution with no opinion for where the Common Ancestor came from. I believe that we will be resurrected from the dead to face judgment by God for our beliefs, intentions, words and deeds with some people going to Hell and some going to Paradise; whereas, I presume that you believe that we simply cease to exist at our death. I see your (presumed) belief along the lines of, " 'Poof' we are here and then again 'poof' we are gone." as being less likely and less meaningful than my belief that we were created by God and to Him we will return. Please, correct my presumptions that are in error and forgive me for my mistakes.

I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.

I can relate to your fear of 'fundamentalists' as being intolerant of others with different beliefs than their own. These people may be so inclined to commit atrocities against the 'heretics' and the 'infidels' as in the Spanish Inquisition. I also respect your fear of 'authoritarian oriented religion', but how is that different from irreligious authoritarian idealogies like Nazism, Communism, or Corporatism?

[Abu Loren]

If I could be bold enough to add that the atheists may be in the majority. Let's do the maths.

There are reportedly about 7 billion people in the world.
1.5 billion of them Muslims (not all are practicing)
1.2 billion of them Christians (not all are practicing)
1.0 billion of them 'others' (not all are practicing)

Total number of atheists in the world =

Fill in the blank

[BlackMamba]

I have yet to meet such a person. How does one "prove" that an unfalsifiable thing doesn't exist?



It doesn't take any faith at all.



I didn't make a decision about it. No more than you made a decision not to believe you are a dolphin dreaming.

Huh? You believe in something without proof. Sounds like faith to me.

[glo]

Huh? You believe in something without proof. Sounds like faith to me.

I am not sure that it makes sense to identify your faith by the things you don't believe in.

I mean, I don't believe in the Norse gods or in the spaghetti monster. I have no proof that they don't exist, just as I don't have proof that the God I believe in does exist.

But my faith relates to what I believe in, not in what I don't believe in.
Otherwise I would have to call myself a Norse mythology atheist and a spaghetti monster atheist and a [fill in the blank with everything else I don't believe in] atheist.
That would make me more of an atheist than a theist ... :D

[sister herb]

It is easy to be atheist - I was one before I became muslim. Just say: I believe nothing.

Being muslim or christian is much more difficult - then you have to think and learn several matters.

:statisfie

And understand.

[Indian Bro]

I am not sure that it makes sense to identify your faith by the things you don't believe in.

I mean, I don't believe in the Norse gods or in the spaghetti monster. I have no proof that they don't exist, just as I don't have proof that the God I believe in does exist.

But my faith relates to what I believe in, not in what I don't believe in.
Otherwise I would have to call myself a Norse mythology atheist and a spaghetti monster atheist and a [fill in the blank with everything else I don't believe in] atheist.
That would make me more of an atheist than a theist ... :D

Don't mean to derail the thread, however, I find it strange that a Christian doubts the existence of God. We have historical evidence to prove the existence of Jesus Christ (PBUH), so isn't that enough for any Christian to be satisfied that there is a God? Or is your faith linked to the divinity of Jesus Christ (PBUH), or in other words your faith depends on whether he was a God or not?

[Abu Loren]

I think the following verses form the Holy Qur'an are relevent for Mr. Atheist.

Sahih International

And We send not the messengers except as bringers of good tidings and warners. And those who disbelieve dispute by [using] falsehood to [attempt to] invalidate thereby the truth and have taken My verses, and that of which they are warned, in ridicule.

And who is more unjust than one who is reminded of the verses of his Lord but turns away from them and forgets what his hands have put forth? Indeed, We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And if you invite them to guidance - they will never be guided, then - ever.

And your Lord is the Forgiving, full of mercy. If He were to impose blame upon them for what they earned, He would have hastened for them the punishment. Rather, for them is an appointment from which they will never find an escape.
18:56-58

[Iceee]

If I could be bold enough to add that the atheists may be in the majority. Let's do the maths.

There are reportedly about 7 billion people in the world.
1.5 billion of them Muslims (not all are practicing)
1.2 billion of them Christians (not all are practicing)
1.0 billion of them 'others' (not all are practicing)

Total number of atheists in the world =

Fill in the blank

These are just estimates. Also, there are more Christians than Muslims; of course not all are actually practicing their faith but still.

But I do have to say that Muslims seem to be getting married rather than staying single.
And Muslims tend to have 3-4kids, maybe even more while Christians tend to stay at 2-3 kids.
So Islam will be the majority population soon. :)

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

just for the record:

The Prophet (SAW) related that when Allaah created Aadam, He took a covenant from him in a place called Na'maan on the day of 'Arafah,[4] then He extracted from him all of his descendants who would be born until the end of the world, generation after generation, and spread them out in front of Him in order to take a covenant from them also. He spoke to them face to face saying: "Am I not your Lord?" and they all replied, "Yes, we testify to it." Allaah then explained why He had all of mankind bear witness that He was their creator and only true God worthy of worship. He said, "That was in case you (mankind) should say on the Day of Resurrection, "Surely we were unaware of all this. We had no idea that You, Allaah, were our God. No one told us that we were only supposed to worship You." Allaah went on to explain that it was also in case you should say: "It was our ancestors who made partners (with Allaah) and we are only their descendants; will You, then destroy us for what those liars did?"[5] This was the Prophet's (SAW) explanation of the Qur'anic verse in which Allaah said:

"When your Lord drew forth from the loins of the children of Aadam, their descendants and made them testify concerning themselves. (Saying): 'Am I not your Lord' They said, 'Yes, we testify to it.' (This) in case you say on the Day of Judgement, 'We were unaware of this'. Or in case you say, 'It was our ancestors who made partners (with Allaah) and we are only their descendants. Will you then destroy us for what those liars did?"[8]

The verse and prophetic explanation confirm the fact that everyone is responsible for belief in God and on the Day of Judgement excuses will not be accepted. Every human being has the belief in God imprinted on his soul and Allaah shows every idolator during the course of his life, signs that his idol is not God. Hence, every sane human being is required to believe in God beyond His creation and not manifest in it.

therefore, it is impossible to believe that Allah doesn't exist. PERIOD. you can "think" that you believe it, you can be convinced that you believe it. however, you cannot be 100% sure, thus you really aren't sure, thus you are agnostic to an extreme. that is a collective you, i realize that you, personally, don't believe that. just being a little bit of Joe Friday, here. (uh, that's Dragnet to anyone that doesn't know)

now, Pygo, i'm not trying to convince of that, i'm just stating how i view the matter. i hope you do not find it offensive; and if anyone thinks they can change my mind on the matter, well, they don't know the meaning of the word stubborn. (not like i do)

to Abu Loren, yes, i would agree to your proposition that those who claim that they don't believe in God appear to be in the majority. with the caveat, that they are really agnostic, as many, many people born into and actually professing religion are also (to some varying degree) agnostic, which would then make agnosticism the largest belief system in the world. even though it, as well as (so called) atheism aren't really belief systems.

but to get back to what i want to know:

looking at how you define belief in the unseen world, Pygo, you are kind of close to paralleling the philosophers of ancient Greece. you view "theist" (a word i really don't like as it groups monotheists and polytheists (and those professing monotheism, but aren't, all in the same group), pretty much as pagans. that WOULD be an appropriate description on any polytheist, but NOT a true monotheist.

do you differentiate between the various religions? as far as what they believe, or just how they act?

when bani-Israel first appears in history, they were considered atheists because they didn't believe in THE gods. it took a few centuries to be accepted as not being atheists, albeit with but just the 1 God. the Romans also held a similar view of early Christians, they didn't not believe in THE gods, ergo atheists. eventually, Christianity became pagan enough so that it made sense to the Romans and they signed on in record numbers!

do you see polytheist differently than monotheists? what does your girlfriend and her family think of you views? or is "religion' just as "aspect" of life to them, instead of being all encompassing? are are just "such a nice lad" that they don't care?

peace

[MustafaMc]

I don't have proof that the God I believe in does exist

Don't mean to derail the thread, however, I find it strange that a Christian doubts the existence of God.

You completely missed the point of her post. She believes in God even though she does not have scientific proof for His existence.

[IAmZamzam]

These are just estimates. Also, there are more Christians than Muslims; of course not all are actually practicing their faith but still.

But I do have to say that Muslims seem to be getting married rather than staying single.
And Muslims tend to have 3-4kids, maybe even more while Christians tend to stay at 2-3 kids.
So Islam will be the majority population soon. :)

That could happen in theory--but not everyone really practices when it comes to Islam either. When people answer under "religion" on census forms or surveys I strongly suspect that a gigantic chunk of these responses are just people who are indifferent or rarely practicing (read: "insincere") members of the religions they were raised with or agnostics, and are just arbitrarily marking that religion because out of conscience or habit they feel that they have to put down something. "The numbers don't lie," they say. Bull. The numbers may not lie, but they do mislead. Oh, how they mislead. But don't get me wrong, it is encouraging. We can at least feel sure that the numbers of genuine Muslims are at least increasing in some capacity. Praise Allah.

[Indian Bro]

You completely missed the point of her post. She believes in God even though she does not have scientific proof for His existence.

This doesn't make sense to me. Aren't there non-Christian history books, Roman Empire records and archaeologists that have proven that Jesus (PBUH) existed?

[GuestFellow]

^ I doubt it. There is really no proof.

[Iceee]

When people answer under "religion" on census forms or surveys I strongly suspect that a gigantic chunk of these responses are just people who are indifferent or rarely practicing (read: "insincere") members of the religions they were raised with or agnostics, and are just arbitrarily marking that religion because out of conscience or habit they feel that they have to put down something.

They may not be practicing Islam or Christianity or whatever religion they are, but they were raised to that religion making them one of them. It's like a Muslim family where the kids never attended madressa, never touched or opened the Quran, and pray only with the Imam at the Masjid because they don't know the surats.

On a survey, they are still Muslim.

[IAmZamzam]

You want to know what I think about all this? I think you people exist all right. You have too much in common with each other for there not to be something real to it. Atheism, or antireligion, is a youthful phase that some people like myself grow out of and other people don't. I'm sincerely trying to avoid that conclusion but the more I see the more convinced of it I become. You know a lot more of your ilk than I do, Pygoscelis, so answer me this. How many atheists do you ever meet who didn't stop believing before they reached the age of, oh, say, twenty-five-ish or so? Didn't you tell me that you pretty much never believed even as a little kid? I've heard that one quite a lot too. For example I don’t know how many Wikipedia articles I’ve come across with some variation of the exact words “decided early on he was an atheist”. So, so many. Dan Barker was, to be sure, in his mid-thirties (which isn't very far removed from the age range I spoke of) but he's the only exception that springs quickly to mind.

Flying spaghetti monsters, pink unicorns, fairies, leprechauns in your attic...of course our old pal Santa Claus is always sure to rear his hoary head eventually. Mightn't there be a reason why these people's minds are so locked down in the pattern of talking like playground bullies that when you ask them to express themselves in another way they can’t even fathom how they possibly could go about doing that? For heaven’s sake, look at what this guy did on another board. When I refused to give him the time of day by responding to his childishness he got even more childish—so much so, in fact, that he told me that if I was going to be a great big crybaby and run and cry to mommy instead of coming out and fighting him like a big kid then FINE ALREADY!

Like I said, I’ve tried and tried and tried to avoid this conclusion, telling myself time and again, “You’re just getting weary; you’re maybe even getting prejudiced.” But when the evidence of your experience confirms something fifty, maybe two-hundred-and-fifty times in a row with pretty much no definite exceptions, it becomes increasingly difficult to ignore. People always seem to set themselves in opposition to religion when they’re young, or at the very least have traits easily associated with youthfulness or all out immaturity in their personalities. In contrast what are old people more infamous for? Being strongly religious. I’m sorry but I’m fighting a losing battle here. Oh atheists are real, all right. And it’s not a good thing that they are either.

[BlackMamba]

I am not sure that it makes sense to identify your faith by the things you don't believe in.

My point is that at the end of the day, atheists are choosing to believe in something, just as theists do. Atheists believe that life started spontaneously. There have been experiments that suggest that IF the earth was a certain composition of methane, H2, water, etc then it is possible that certain molecules could be produced which might have eventually given rise to the life we see today. But at the end of the day, the science is very far away from even beginning to disprove God. So, the scientist is left with a decision. Either he can chose to believe in some religion due to that religion's own non-scientific proofs. OR the scientists can chose to believe in atheism and that all of life happened spontaneously. Either way though, that person will be believing (therefore, having faith) in something.

I mean, I don't believe in the Norse gods or in the spaghetti monster. I have no proof that they don't exist, just as I don't have proof that the God I believe in does exist.

But my faith relates to what I believe in, not in what I don't believe in.
Otherwise I would have to call myself a Norse mythology atheist and a spaghetti monster atheist and a [fill in the blank with everything else I don't believe in] atheist.
That would make me more of an atheist than a theist ... :D

So you have faith that Norse gods do not exist just as an atheist has faith that no God exists. That's my point. And the only reason you aren't identified as "Norse mythology atheist and a spaghetti monster atheist" is because of convenience.

[Berries'forest]

This reminds me of someone I met a long time ago. He said he was an atheist, but when people tried to reason with him, he admitted that he doesn't actually belive that God doesn't exist but he just doesn't want to worship him. He even said that he finds Hell much more exciting than paradise.....

[Pygoscelis]

now, Pygo, i'm not trying to convince of that, i'm just stating how i view the matter. i hope you do not find it offensive; and if anyone thinks they can change my mind on the matter, well, they don't know the meaning of the word stubborn. (not like i do)

I don't take offense at all. I fully expect that you would believe your holy book over something I say. When your holy book tells you that there are no people who completely lack belief in your God, and then I come along and tell you I completely lack belief in your God, I'm not really offended when you go with your holy book and see what I am saying as a lie. Makes perfect sense to me that you would then tell your brothers and sisters in Islam that there are no atheists. What confuses me is when you try to tell me that. I know that I don't believe in your God and nothing you say or believe is going to change that reality. It would be like me telling you I am a millionaire. You may be absolutely convinced I am not. But if I have the money in my hand, telling me that isn't going to sway me very much :)

do you differentiate between the various religions? as far as what they believe, or just how they act?

Theism and atheism are a major divide, like having hair or not having hair is. Then on top of that, for those who have hair, you have hairstyles. There are some very big differences between religions, but they all have that one thing in common that I lack, a belief in the supernatural. Unless of course we are talking about eastern philosophies that I really wouldn't call religion.

do you see polytheist differently than monotheists?

Yes, of course, but not huge differences in outcome. :) With polytheism you may have different people with different Gods, and they may war, or they may be accepting of each other. With monotheism you have people who insist there is only one God, their God. Their God is the only God, and so their God is the only God it is tolerable to worship, which has caused a lot of conflict.

what does your girlfriend and her family think of you views? or is "religion' just as "aspect" of life to them, instead of being all encompassing?

They are pretty serious about their religion. They accept me though, and I think it actually may be bolstered rather than inhibited by their religion. They see that I treat their daughter well and that I am stable and do good in the community. That seems to make them like me.

[Pygoscelis]

You know a lot more of your ilk than I do, Pygoscelis, so answer me this. How many atheists do you ever meet who didn't stop believing before they reached the age of, oh, say, twenty-five-ish or so? Didn't you tell me that you pretty much never believed even as a little kid? I've heard that one quite a lot too. For example I don’t know how many Wikipedia articles I’ve come across with some variation of the exact words “decided early on he was an atheist”. So, so many. Dan Barker was, to be sure, in his mid-thirties (which isn't very far removed from the age range I spoke of) but he's the only exception that springs quickly to mind.

I have seen both. Yes, I myself was never really a believer. I went through the rituals as a child but when I put my mind to it I realized I never really believed in any of it. Other people become atheists later in life. I know some who became atheists as seniors. If you want to talk to a bunch of atheists about this, I know a pretty cordial atheist board I can refer you to so you can ask many atheists their story.

Flying spaghetti monsters, pink unicorns, fairies, leprechauns in your attic...of course our old pal Santa Claus is always sure to rear his hoary head eventually.

You think atheism is a juvenile stage. There are plenty of atheists who think theism is (and yes, liken belief in God to belief in Santa). I don't think it behooves us to speak of either in that manner.

When I refused to give him the time of day by responding to his childishness he got even more childish—so much so, in fact, that he told me that if I was going to be a great big crybaby and run and cry to mommy instead of coming out and fighting him like a big kid then FINE ALREADY!

He looks like a troll or a bully, looking to attack you for the sake of attacking you. Most web forums have a culture that forms an ingroup (even atheist boards do), and then some members of it decide to see themselves as champions of it and attack anybody who doesn't agree with the board's stance, and make posts full of venom and childishness. We have plenty of that here too. I'm actually refreshed that hasn't hit this thread yet. It will once certain board members read it.

People always seem to set themselves in opposition to religion when they’re young, or at the very least have traits easily associated with youthfulness or all out immaturity in their personalities. In contrast what are old people more infamous for? Being strongly religious. I’m sorry but I’m fighting a losing battle here. Oh atheists are real, all right. And it’s not a good thing that they are either.

Old people are more conservative in general, more set in their ways, less adaptive to change, to challenging the norm, to challenging tradition, and to seeing things a new way or with their own fresh eyes. When new scientific breakthroughs happen you often have older scientists hanging on to the old theory until they die too. They have invested too much time and energy into their beliefs to change them. The major shifts usually only happen once the new generation comes through. If that happens with science, where the whole point of the enterprise is to challenge what we thought we knew, it will be even stronger in religion.

[Pygoscelis]

My point is that at the end of the day, atheists are choosing to believe in something, just as theists do.

No. They are just not believers. Did you choose not to believe you are a dolphin dreaming? Or do you just not believe that?

Atheists believe that life started spontaneously.

A lot of atheists may believe that, but that isn't atheism. You can be atheist and not believe that.

But at the end of the day, the science is very far away from even beginning to disprove God.

There is no need to disprove God. If you are going to claim God then the burden of proof is on you, not them.

Moreover, if you define God as unfalsifiable, then they couldn't possibly disprove God anyway.

So you have faith that Norse gods do not exist just as an atheist has faith that no God exists.

That is a pretty strange meaning of "Faith". Do you also have faith that Darth Vader and Santa do not exist, and that you are not a dolphin dreaming? That's a lot of faith, since we could come up with a very long list of things you don't believe.

[Pygoscelis]

This reminds me of someone I met a long time ago. He said he was an atheist, but when people tried to reason with him, he admitted that he doesn't actually belive that God doesn't exist but he just doesn't want to worship him. He even said that he finds Hell much more exciting than paradise.....

I'll wager that you misunderstood him, just as many here are misunderstanding me.

I bet what he meant is that he doesn't like the God you have described and would not worship him if he did exist, and that the heaven you describe also doesn't appeal to him. I could be wrong, but I bet that is what he meant. A lot of atheists would agree with that, including me (assuming you described God and heaven as it has been described on this board).

[sister herb]

Seems atheism is popular here too:

Priest alone in the church yesterday:

Local mosque was full of prayers at the same time.

;D

[BlackMamba]

No. They are just not believers. Did you choose not to believe you are a dolphin dreaming? Or do you just not believe that?



A lot of atheists may believe that, but that isn't atheism. You can be atheist and not believe that.



There is no need to disprove God. If you are going to claim God then the burden of proof is on you, not them.

Moreover, if you define God as unfalsifiable, then they couldn't possibly disprove God anyway.



That is a pretty strange meaning of "Faith". Do you also have faith that Darth Vader and Santa do not exist, and that you are not a dolphin dreaming? That's a lot of faith, since we could come up with a very long list of things you don't believe.

Bottomline, if your belief in atheism is not held in faith, then what ? Do you have empirical evidence that proves your atheism? If not, then you're in the same boat as the theists. I don't see what I'm missing here.

Why would the burden of proof be on the theist. Religion has been and is still the norm. The atheist is the one going against the grain.

[Scimitar]

This reminds me of someone I met a long time ago. He said he was an atheist, but when people tried to reason with him, he admitted that he doesn't actually belive that God doesn't exist but he just doesn't want to worship him. He even said that he finds Hell much more exciting than paradise.....

I'll wager that you misunderstood him, just as many here are misunderstanding me.

I bet what he meant is that he doesn't like the God you have described and would not worship him if he did exist, and that the heaven you describe also doesn't appeal to him. I could be wrong, but I bet that is what he meant. A lot of atheists would agree with that, including me (assuming you described God and heaven as it has been described on this board).

huh?

let's take a closer look at your confused self:

Berries: This reminds me of someone I met a long time ago. He said he was an atheist, but when people tried to reason with him, he admitted that he doesn't actually belive that God doesn't exist


Pygo: I bet what he meant is that (subjectivity is failure in itself my friend) he doesn't like the God you have described and would not worship him if he did exist

No Pygo, play ball here. Do not insert your own interpretations from someone elses account my friend, it only serves to make you look weak and desperate... are you? :D

Let's carry on:

Berries: but he just doesn't want to worship him. He even said that he finds Hell much more exciting than paradise....

Pygo: and that the heaven you describe also doesn't appeal to him. I could be wrong, (do you really think you are wrong when you are only repeating back what the other guy had said? Pygo, you do realise that stating the obvious yet unrelated, does not earn you more kudos here, right?) but I bet that is what he meant. A lot of atheists would agree with that, including me (assuming you described God and heaven as it has been described on this board).

Assuming that God and Heaven were described as they are in this board? Listen up Pygo, Muslims differ from Christian and Jews in the sense that we remain constant in our understanding of the Quran and the Sunnah, and therefore, you will find 99.99% of all Muslims giving the same information regarding God and Heaven...

You've not said anything in your post to lend your world view any weight. If your post was a stop-gap for a breather, then pardon me for knocking the metaphorical wind out of your chest :D

...I can't wait to read more of you. You seem like someone I would enjoy picking apart.

Scimi

[YusufNoor]

I don't take offense at all.

cool!

I fully expect that you would believe your holy book over something I say. When your holy book tells you that there are no people who completely lack belief in your God, and then I come along and tell you I completely lack belief in your God, I'm not really offended when you go with your holy book and see what I am saying as a lie.

i AM NOT saying that you are lying. that would be rude. i am merely instructing you on the proper viewpoint.

Makes perfect sense to me that you would then tell your brothers and sisters in Islam that there are no atheists. What confuses me is when you try to tell me that.

it is our obligation to instruct others on Islamic monotheism. first, i'm dying from heart disease, so it is not like i can put this off. second, it isn't like i went out and found you somewhere where it might be considered inappropriate to discuss it. you come here, this is an Islamic message board. so, imagine that i'll be dead by year's end, i'm not going to Canada anytime soon, and i doubt you'll be in Auburn, WA anytime soon; when or where else might seem like a more appropriate place?

I know that I don't believe in your God and nothing you say or believe is going to change that reality.

so, you consider yourself a god? you ABSOLUTELY KNOW what is going to happen in the future? got any stock tips?

It would be like me telling you I am a millionaire. You may be absolutely convinced I am not. But if I have the money in my hand, telling me that isn't going to sway me very much :)

our only responsibility is to deliver the message. it is NOT our job to "sway" anyone. me, being a tad short on time, will be a little more direct than some others. not sure how much time there is to "beat around the bush".

Theism and atheism are a major divide, like having hair or not having hair is. Then on top of that, for those who have hair, you have hairstyles. There are some very big differences between religions, but they all have that one thing in common that I lack, a belief in the supernatural. Unless of course we are talking about eastern philosophies that I really wouldn't call religion.

Yes, of course, but not huge differences in outcome. :) With polytheism you may have different people with different Gods, and they may war, or they may be accepting of each other. With monotheism you have people who insist there is only one God, their God. Their God is the only God, and so their God is the only God it is tolerable to worship, which has caused a lot of conflict.

They are pretty serious about their religion. They accept me though, and I think it actually may be bolstered rather than inhibited by their religion. They see that I treat their daughter well and that I am stable and do good in the community. That seems to make them like me.

being a(n alleged) atheist, and knowing all the issues that arise living with a woman, how can you get married if you don't believe in love? ^o)

peace

[IAmZamzam]

Some who became atheists as seniors…a pretty cordial atheist board

Good news—but “produce your proof, if you speak truly”.

He looks like a troll or a bully, looking to attack you for the sake of attacking you.

Oh, certainly. But he’s also a very, very old scientist, who is anything but conservative—and who told me he never really believed in religion even as a child. Example number seventy gajillion.

If you are going to claim God then the burden of proof is on you, not them.

“If you are going to claim God”, eh? But we never claimed God's existence with total, 100% certainty, now did we? We therefore merely have a “lack of belief” in atheism. The burden of proof is now on you instead of us.

Just. Give. Up. With. That. Awful. Phrase.

But of course you’re not gonna. You guys need that phrase. Semantics is your rod, your shield and your armor.

[glo]

Don't mean to derail the thread, however, I find it strange that a Christian doubts the existence of God. We have historical evidence to prove the existence of Jesus Christ (PBUH), so isn't that enough for any Christian to be satisfied that there is a God? Or is your faith linked to the divinity of Jesus Christ (PBUH), or in other words your faith depends on whether he was a God or not?

Of course I believe that God exists. What makes you think that I don't?

But I don't think that we have any proof of his existence which stand up to scientific scrutiny. Do you think we have? Since this is a thread by and about atheists, I think it is only right and fair to make that clear.

I have many, many reasons to believe in God and the divinity of Jesus - but scientific proof is not the reason for it. :)

Interesting that you mention historic evidence for the existence of Jesus.
I understand that even many non-believers are of the opinion that Jesus existed. But do we have hard historic evidence?
Let me know what evidence you are talking about. I would be interested to hear more about it.

[IAmZamzam]

I don't know of any physical proof of the existence of Jesus but the fact is generally accepted even by atheists. It's a complex subject which I admit I'm rusty on and never read too terribly extensively into to begin with but in short "Christ mythicism" is considered a sort of fringe movement and for good reason. In order to make it work people like Robert Price really have to go out of their way to forcibly reinterpret certain facts. (I suspect that he misrepresented the words of Barbara Mikkelson too--but I admit I've only seen the interview and not read the book.) I would summarize the situation by saying that if you're going to doubt the existence of Jesus then you may as well go ahead and doubt the existence of at least one-fourth of all the other people filling the history textbooks you grew up with as well, because they tend to be in the same boat in terms of sheerly provable historicity. That's just the way it works. If we can't take it that he was real then we pretty much can't understand anything when you think about it. And of course that's still leaving aside altogether the question of whether The Qur'an is true, which settles things anyway.

[Indian Bro]

I understand that even many non-believers are of the opinion that Jesus existed. But do we have hard historic evidence?
Let me know what evidence you are talking about. I would be interested to hear more about it.

To be fair we don't have "hard" historical evidence for almost anything that dates beyond a millennium, but we have enough evidence which is sufficient for even a non-theist to believe that a man named Jesus Christ (PBUH) did walk on this Earth around 2000 years ago.

[MustafaMc]

Bottomline, if your belief in atheism is not held in faith, then what ? Do you have empirical evidence that proves your atheism?

I am starting to get your point that atheism actually is a belief system and that it goes beyond the absence of belief or faith in God. Atheist actually do believe that God does NOT exist! They have no evidence on which to base this negative belief and actually have less evidence than theist which is the creation being evidence of a Creator. Atheism is actually not supported by anything other than the absence of scientific, physical evidence of God's existence. A stronger position is held by the agnostic who says God may or may not exist, but he does not accept anything unless he has evidence for its existence.

[YusufNoor]

I am starting to get your point that atheism actually is a belief system and that it goes beyond the absence of belief or faith in God. Atheist actually do believe that God does NOT exist! They have no evidence on which to base this negative belief and actually have less evidence than theist which is the creation being evidence of a Creator. Atheism is actually not supported by anything other than the absence of scientific, physical evidence of God's existence. A stronger position is held by the agnostic who says God may or may not exist, but he does not accept anything unless he has evidence for its existence.

:sl:

that's what i'm saying! you CANNOT say God does not exist! because a) it isn't true, and b) you CANNOT prove it! ergo, there is no such thing as an atheist, there are only people that either "think" they are, "proclaim" they are, or any combination of the two.

IF you CANNOT prove what you think you can't see, you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT disprove it based upon the same evidence! it is simply not possible. it isn't even logical.

and agnosticism, while an incorrect belief system, is perfectly logical. if you believe that you don't know something, then, "i don't know" is a totally rational answer. ANY other answer would have to begin with, "i think..." but if you "think" something, and then based upon what you "think", you say "i know"...you are not telling the truth!

and Allahu Alam

[MustafaMc]

that's what i'm saying! you CANNOT say God does not exist!

Assalamu alaikum, I respect your perspective, but from my understanding of the atheist's position is that he honestly and actively BELIEVES that God does not exist in the same manner that Santa Claus (as so believed in by millions of children) can be agreed does not exist in actuality. Atheists believe that 'God' is a figment of the human imagination - nothing more and nothing less. They do not allow for the possibility of His existence as the agnostic does. The atheist is pure and simple a materialist/naturalist and anything beyond this physical world does not exist. It is interesting that their belief in No God (as opposed to One God, pun intended) comes full circle and points back to their very existence. They believe that we came from nothing and that we will return to complete and utter nothingness. In the same way that they believe God does not exists, so also they see our physical lives between conception and death are the totality of our personal existence.

[Abu Loren]

a·the·ist


noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.


Synonyms
Atheist, agnostic, infidel, skeptic refer to persons not inclined toward religious belief or a particular form of religious belief. An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings. An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine. Infidel means an unbeliever, especially a nonbeliever in Islam or Christianity. A skeptic doubts and is critical of all accepted doctrines and creeds.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist?s=t

[جوري]

which stand up to scientific scrutiny

What kind of tests do you have in mind?

[Berries'forest]

I'll wager that you misunderstood him, just as many here are misunderstanding me.

I bet what he meant is that he doesn't like the God you have described and would not worship him if he did exist, and that the heaven you describe also doesn't appeal to him. I could be wrong, but I bet that is what he meant. A lot of atheists would agree with that, including me (assuming you described God and heaven as it has been described on this board).

Oh but I'm not the one who debated with him. And we weren't all muslims talking to him either. I think he possibly despises the whole idea of submitting to God. But does what you're saying mean that this particular description of God does not appeal to you? How would you have wanted it otherwise?. And would it be able to restore the lack of belief you are experiencing?.

[Scimitar]

Loner: does love exist?

Romeo: yeah, of course it does

Loner: prove it

Romeo: Did your parents not love you?

Loner: I'm an orphan and was raised by wolves

Romeo: did the wolves not care for you? is that not an extension of love?

Loner: they're animals, they're incapable of human emotion

Romeo: what makes you say that?

Loner: experience

Romeo: so the experience you had in early childhood, being raised by wolves is disregarded because they are not humans?

Loner: precisely

Romeo: ok (bewildered expression)

Loner: So can you prove that love exists?

Romeo: only from my own personal experiences

Loner: but that's not proof, that's your experiences

Romeo: I am but the sum total of my experiences, and I am witness to these, therefore I am the proof that love exists. I claim it exists, and so would the lady I married. Alhamdulilllah.

Loner: that's just BS, you loverboys clearly lack the faculty of reason and often cite from experiences that are open to interpretation, yet to throw these out as facts?

Romeo: I feel sad that you cannot use YOUR faculty of reason on this. You asked me for proof of love's existence, I gave you the only proof I knew how to give - my experiences. It would seem that if you had it your way, you would like to trap "love" in a box and keep it in your pocket, sorry bro, but that's not the way love works. What validates your experiences over mine? nothing. SO you cannot operate on a double standard here - that would be hypocritical of you.

....

I always find it odd that atheists will constantly ask for empirical proofs :D for the existence of God, whilst at the same time knowing that universe (effect) is limitied to a space time continuum.... meaning that the cause would be outside of that - how do you measure something that is outside of the space time continuum? Answer - you cannot.

Oooh, this will get the atheists goat:

Let's speculate here, on the hadron collider
let's say the pinky's at CERN managed to formulate a model of the universe - and from concept, BIG BANG. Let's say that this experiment yielded in planetary formulations, orbits, galaxies etc, all that we have in our universe... now let's say that a tiny blue sphere of a planet gave rise to intelligent life, the dna of which, was formulated by those pinkys at CERN and their ilk...

...Now, let's say this species (let's call them human) started to argue abuout the possibility of a god?

Theologically speaking, it would make more sense for these humans to understand that the universe was the effect and the cause is outside of the effect (space time continuum) and therefore a higher being does exist, just not in our universe, and definitely not in our dimension.

So when those humans who claim there is no god, ask for empirical proofs in order to lend their theory more weight, we have to remind them that the standard by which they are looking to conclude, is wholly flawed from the offset...

...ofcourse, you know where that goes: "You're just another stupid person who doesn't understand science" et al...

...enter Mustafa MC, and they can't claim that line anymore. Atheist? on the back foot.

Scimi

[Scimitar]

Where is God? explained in under 3 mins by Shaikh Hamza Yusuf Hansen :)


Scimi

[Pygoscelis]

Bottomline, if your belief in atheism is not held in faith, then what ? Do you have empirical evidence that proves your atheism? If not, then you're in the same boat as the theists. I don't see what I'm missing here.

I see what you are missing. I have defined what I mean by atheism a few times above and you seem to have missed it. Atheism is a lack of belief in Gods. It is simply not being convinced that Gods exist. I can prove that there is no God anymore than I can prove that I will win the lottery tomorrow. I don't have any good reason to believe either one though, so I don't hold those beliefs. So I don't go to church and I don't buy a sports car.

Why would the burden of proof be on the theist. Religion has been and is still the norm. The atheist is the one going against the grain.

The burden of proof is on whoever makes a claim and wants others to believe it. If you want others to believe in your God then the burden of proof is on you. If you don't care what others believe, then there is nothing to prove. Personally, I'll cool with that. You can go on seeing me as blind, having not seen what you have seen, and I can go on seeing you as believing in something I don't.

[Pygoscelis]

Assuming that God and Heaven were described as they are in this board? Listen up Pygo, Muslims differ from Christian and Jews in the sense that we remain constant in our understanding of the Quran and the Sunnah, and therefore, you will find 99.99% of all Muslims giving the same information regarding God and Heaven...

That has not been my experience. The views expressed on this board are very very different than those expressed by other muslims I know. You can pretend that everybody agrees with you, or you can call the others "not real muslims", the same way Christians so often do that to each other, but I have seen what I have seen.

You've not said anything in your post to lend your world view any weight. If your post was a stop-gap for a breather, then pardon me for knocking the metaphorical wind out of your chest :D

Don't worry. You haven't done any such thing. I haven't even expressed my world view. It isn't relevant to this thread. I have only said I am atheist.

[Pygoscelis]

“If you are going to claim God”, eh? But we never claimed God's existence with total, 100% certainty, now did we? We therefore merely have a “lack of belief” in atheism. The burden of proof is now on you instead of us.

You hold a belief that I lack. And I don't know you personally, but I will bet very strongly that you hold this belief pretty strongly and that it is dear to you. Atheism isn't dear to me at all, and I don't hold to it with intent. I am a skeptic, but if actual convincing evidence came along, I would be quite open to accepting the facts as they are proved. Unfortunately theists usually make their Gods and the claims about them unfalsifiable, so no such evidence is likely to be found.

Just. Give. Up. With. That. Awful. Phrase.

But of course you’re not gonna. You guys need that phrase. Semantics is your rod, your shield and your armor.

Do you see why that phrase matters? It isn't a "sheild". It is an important distinction. In this thread over and over people are demanding I prove God doesn't exist. They claim that I have "faith" God doesn't exist, etc. I don't have any ability or desire to prove God doesn't exist, no more than I could or would want to prove I won't win the lottery tomorrow. I don't believe I will win the lottery tomorrow. That is all. Somebody else may think they have lucky numbers and will win it. I don't find that convincing. I lack that belief.

[Pygoscelis]

I am starting to get your point that atheism actually is a belief system and that it goes beyond the absence of belief or faith in God.

No, it isn't. Anything beyond that absence of belief in God goes beyond mere atheism. Of course, atheists do have belief systems and world views, and not believing in God may open the door to some of them or make some of them more likely than others, but atheism in itself is not world view. Atheists are not all humanists. They are not all materialists. They are not all evolutionists.

[Scimitar]

That has not been my experience. The views expressed on this board are very very different than those expressed by other muslims I know. You can pretend that everybody agrees with you, or you can call the others "not real muslims", the same way Christians so often do that to each other, but I have seen what I have seen.



Don't worry. You haven't done any such thing. I haven't even expressed my world view. It isn't relevant to this thread. I have only said I am atheist.

In a thread titled "yes atheists do exist" you decided to say "I'm here, sir" like you do in classrooms? :D come on... pull the other one. You are trying to express your world view within the context of this thread. It's THAT obvious.

Scimi

[Pygoscelis]

IF you CANNOT prove what you think you can't see, you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT disprove it based upon the same evidence!

... and enter Russel's teapot, the FSM, the UPI, faeries, and ghosts. You absolutely cannot disprove any of those either. That doesn't mean you should believe they exist, or that they are remotely likely to exist.

[Pygoscelis]

a·the·ist


noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.


Synonyms
Atheist, agnostic, infidel, skeptic refer to persons not inclined toward religious belief or a particular form of religious belief. An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings. An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine. Infidel means an unbeliever, especially a nonbeliever in Islam or Christianity. A skeptic doubts and is critical of all accepted doctrines and creeds.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist?s=t

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[4][5][6][7] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[8][9] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.[9][10]

The meaning of the word "atheism" is twofold. It can mean mean the atheist doesn't believe in God or that the atheist believes there is no God. The distinction is an important one. I mean the former when I use the term, because I find the definition more useful and fitting (a-theist, one who is not theist; theist meaning one who believes in Gods), and I have made that explicit multiple times in this thread. Others here seem to be meaning the latter.

When I first realized I was atheist (or better put, when I realized other people actually believed in God literally) I wondered for a long time what I should call myself. If I defined atheist as one who knows with certainty there is no God, and denies the very possibility, then I am not one, and neither is any other "atheist" I had met. I called myself "agnostic" for a while but that term suffers just as much confusion as "atheist" does. Many think agnostic means one who isn't sure, or doesn't know, or can't decide if they think God exists. But agnostic is also used to mean one who believes we CAN NOT know if God exists (a much more useful definition).

I later learned that people have come up with additional useful definitions regarding atheism. "Strong Atheists" are people who boldly assert there is no possibilty of Gods. "Weak Atheists" are those who simply lack belief in Gods. And then you can fall on a spectrum between strong and weak. I'm somewhere in the middle. I can't say with certainty that Gods can't exist, but I can say that I find the idea highly implausible and have seen no evidence to push me towards thinking it likely. I find a deist creator "God" or creation force a little plausible (first cause and all that) but a personal God who looks over us, much less any particular one currently being pushed, not so much. Of course with these God claims always made unfalsifiable, there is no way to know for sure.

In my day to day life, if asked about religion I say I am a Skeptic (that wasn't an option when I made my profile here). I like that name, "Skeptic", because it applies to far more than religious claims and it is more than a state of non-belief. It is an approach to understanding the world. Skepticism is not a complete worldview of course, but it says a lot more than atheism does.

[Pygoscelis]

Oh but I'm not the one who debated with him. And we weren't all muslims talking to him either. I think he possibly despises the whole idea of submitting to God. But does what you're saying mean that this particular description of God does not appeal to you? How would you have wanted it otherwise?. And would it be able to restore the lack of belief you are experiencing?.

I'd rather not go into why I dislike the literalist or fundamentalist version of the Abrahamic God. That would have to be a whole other thread, and would probably get locked quickly, as it would probably make some here angry.

More on point though, no, you could take away the authoritarian tyrant fire and brimstone type God and substitute in the loving caring father figure God, and it wouldn't change a thing in terms of my belief. I don't believe because I don't see reason to. You could edit Darth Vader to be a cute bunny with cape and respirator and I still wouldn't believe in him either :)

[Pygoscelis]

Let's speculate here, on the hadron collider
let's say the pinky's at CERN managed to formulate a model of the universe - and from concept, BIG BANG. Let's say that this experiment yielded in planetary formulations, orbits, galaxies etc, all that we have in our universe... now let's say that a tiny blue sphere of a planet gave rise to intelligent life, the dna of which, was formulated by those pinkys at CERN and their ilk...

...Now, let's say this species (let's call them human) started to argue abuout the possibility of a god?

Theologically speaking, it would make more sense for these humans to understand that the universe was the effect and the cause is outside of the effect (space time continuum) and therefore a higher being does exist, just not in our universe, and definitely not in our dimension.

They would have no way of knowing this though. They may correctly guess it to be true, but that would be mere luck. They also may come up with some religious creation story or another. They may even dream up Gods and declare that these Gods want them to do certain things and to worship them. Imagine the surprise on the CERN scientists faces if they ever looked in and saw all this, these people worshiping imaginary Gods, because these humans have active imaginations and don't like not knowing stuff, and CERN didn't give them any actual communication.

Or, what if CERN went beyond mere deism, and wanted to interact and communicate with the humans. As soon as it did so, as soon as it interacted with the human's world, of course then there would be evidence for the humans to find that CERN exists.

Having created these humans, would CERN want them to worship it? I can't imagine why. But lets say CERN did. Would it communicate its demands and instructions to the humans through a written text, indiscernible to most of the humans from all the other false "holy books" they themselves invented? Would it send a messenger, to one remote area of the world only, that looks to most of the humans who hear about him just like the false prophets from the false religions the humans created before? Would they punish humans that were not convinced by this?

Or maybe they would provide some actual convincing evidence, maybe arrange some planets in the form of sentences and write the holy book that way, or maybe just beam the knowledge that they exist into the minds of the humans. Being CERN, and not actually omnipotent beings, they would have their limits, but I'm sure they could do a better job than the claims of most modern day religions' purported Gods have done.

Our own earth looks pretty much how one would expect it to look absent an interested or personal God looking over it. We can't know for sure how our universe started, and a creation force, or being, or deist "God" if you want to call it that, is one possibility. But just like these humans in your story, we have no way of knowing if it is so.

[Pygoscelis]

Where is God? explained in under 3 mins by Shaikh Hamza Yusuf Hansen :)


Scimi

Interesting choice of video to post. I watched it. He never answers the question "Where is God". He says we shouldn't ask that question, because we don't know a whole lot. He seems to want us to remain in eternal ignorance about things. He then says he doesn't want to link Islam to science too much, and he is wise in this, because scientific understanding is constantly changing as we gain better understanding through study. Science is falsifiable, that's how it progresses, and if Islam made falsifiable claims, it could be falsified and that simply wouldn't do, because then he'd then have to admit that he didn't have the absolute truth handed down from on high.

[Pygoscelis]

In a thread titled "yes atheists do exist" you decided to say "I'm here, sir" like you do in classrooms? :D come on... pull the other one. You are trying to express your world view within the context of this thread. It's THAT obvious.

I find it ironic that people here complain that atheists are arrogant, and yet we get posts like this here from Muslims....

Yes, I posted the OP to state simply that atheists DO exist. Frequently here I have seen statements that claim that everybody believes in God, and that some are simply in denial or rebelling against him. We see statements here like "Atheists are arrogant to reject God" (as if there was a choice), or "Atheists don't appreciate what God did for them" (assuming they know God exists), or "atheists are selfish and don't want to acknowledge God because they don't want to be accountable to God". We see that here a lot. We've even seen it in this thread.

So yes, I started this thread to state flatly that I exist and I really am an atheist. I am not in rebellion against a non-existing God. I do not feign a lack of belief in some attempt to avoid personal responsibility. I simply do not believe. I never have. I only realized other people literally did when I became an adult, and I found it perplexing, and fascinating.

[Pygoscelis]

LOL ok I have posted waaaaay too much here tonight, but a lot of you addressed me.

One final thing I will post is this video. It addresses the false understanding that "atheists reject God". Since we have so many people here trying to analyze the minds of atheists, here is a good look in the opposite direction.

[glo]

What kind of tests do you have in mind?

Quite.
I cannot think of a test which would prove (or disprove) God's existence either. Hence it continues to be a question of faith.

[Scimitar]

LOL ok I have posted waaaaay too much here tonight, but a lot of you addressed me.

One final thing I will post is this video. It addresses the false understanding that "atheists reject God". Since we have so many people here trying to analyze the minds of atheists, here is a good look in the opposite direction.

that's a bit strong. Suffer from an inferiority complex much there pygo? seems like it.

I have friends I've known since childhood who are atheists, 3 on my street alone - so when you go and post a video which plays the "oh feel sorry for me coz I'm an atheist" card, it really does seem like you're grasping at straws...

as for this:

Interesting choice of video to post. I watched it. He never answers the question "Where is God". He says we shouldn't ask that question, because we don't know a whole lot. He seems to want us to remain in eternal ignorance about things. He then says he doesn't want to link Islam to science too much, and he is wise in this, because scientific understanding is constantly changing as we gain better understanding through study. Science is falsifiable, that's how it progresses, and if Islam made falsifiable claims, it could be falsified and that simply wouldn't do, because then he'd then have to admit that he didn't have the absolute truth handed down from on high.

I already answered that in the previous post, which you entirely ignored - so i'll put it in your face once more:

I always find it odd that atheists will constantly ask for empirical proofs for the existence of God, whilst at the same time knowing that universe (effect) is limitied to a space time continuum.... meaning that the cause would be outside of that - how do you measure something that is outside of the space time continuum? Answer - you cannot.

And this something you just can't wrap your head around is it? And you talk to me of science... sure :D I fell off my chair laughing at your lack of logic here.

Your blind faith in a science which itself is always evolving and full of uncertainties, really makes me think you have invested "faith" in a new age belief system. it's a good thing you wasn't a teen in the 60's eh?

:D enjoy your day

Scimi

[tearose]

The views expressed on this board are very very different than those expressed by other muslims I know. You can pretend that everybody agrees with you, or you can call the others "not real muslims", the same way Christians so often do that to each other, but I have seen what I have seen.

You have no reason to believe that the reaction would be either one of the unlikely options you posted. You could only know what the reactions would be if you posted the different views and if others responded to them. What Christians do is of no relevance. As I said in the other thread, the reasons or roots of differences of opinion can usually be identified, in my experience. wa Allahu a3lam.

[Independent]

It's such an odd thread that atheists have to prove they exist! A couple of observations with regard to proof of religion by science:

I do not think atheism based on the scientific method exists. You get a bunch of scientists and pseudo-scientists (mostly this) who come in an try to use science to somehow prove atheism. When in reality, atheism is more faith-based than really any religion out there. One must make a huge leap of faith when deciding to become an atheist. Going strictly by science, and no faith, one would probably land somewhere in agnosticism

Is science opposed to faith? Are scientists trying to destroy religion? If you choose to say that your faith can in fact be proven by science, then at that point you make your religion 'fair game' for scientific debate, just like any other scientific concept. You have to accept that scientists will examine your supposed proof and may find it wanting. If you choose to play the science game, you have to accept the rough and tumble and stop accusing scientists of evil intentions!

He then says he doesn't want to link Islam to science too much, and he is wise in this, because scientific understanding is constantly changing as we gain better understanding through study.

This criticism is often made of science in this forum. The idea is, science says nothing of value because it changes all the time, whereas God is immutable. This is not a fair reflection of what's going on.

Although science is constantly changing, growing, tackling new questions, and sometimes revising old answers, that doesn't mean that the whole thing is unstable. The mathematics of science is mostly unchanging. Many specific ideas and theories are established once and for all and don't change (eg the planets orbit in parabola, not a perfect circle). Or, what was once the supposed final explanation remains true, but is added to by further levels - eg neutrons and electrons turn out to made up of even smaller particles, all the way down to the recent discovery of the Higgs Boson.

This doesn't mean the previous science is rejected, it has been supplemented in a non-contradictory way.

So, it's not accurate to say that there is no constancy in science, simply because some parts of it may change. Science does not claim to be the finished article and that's one of the things that makes it so exciting!

And incidentally....

This doesn't make sense to me. Aren't there non-Christian history books, Roman Empire records and archaeologists that have proven that Jesus (PBUH) existed?

He is recorded in various non-Christian texts such as the Roman historian Tacitus, writing about 70 years after his death (and also talking about Pontius Pilate). Tacitus would have had direct access to Roman records.

[Indian Bro]

It's such an odd thread that atheists have to prove they exist!

From my understanding, atheists are people who don't have any faith that there is a God, this doesn't mean they rule out the existence of God but they just don't have faith that there is one. I don't see anything wrong with that, we have free-will after all :D

Is science opposed to faith? Are scientists trying to destroy religion? If you choose to say that your faith can in fact be proven by science, then at that point you make your religion 'fair game' for scientific debate, just like any other scientific concept. You have to accept that scientists will examine your supposed proof and may find it wanting. If you choose to play the science game, you have to accept the rough and tumble and stop accusing scientists of evil intentions!

Science is just ONE of the aspects that can be used to prove Islam is the truth, it's not the only aspect. The Qur'an isn't a science book, we're not asking schools to throw away their books on biology, chemistry and physics and replace them with the Qur'an, no! We Muslims just find it miraculous that many scientific statements made in the Qur'an 1400 years ago are turning out to be consistent with science even today based on recent scientific breakthroughs and discoveries. There could be scientists who might or might not have their anti-religion agendas when they take their approach towards science (Charles Darwin anyone?) but this doesn't mean anything to be honest because all they will come up against proving the existence of God will be nothing more than theories! For example, what happened before the big-bang? Scientists will suggest the multi-verse theory, an infinite big-bangs of universes or something of the sort - ideally they'll accept that something "infinite" existed before time and space and was the cause of the universe but they wont want to accept that this "infinite" source is God. I'm fine with that as long as people don't blindly believe in these scientific theories just to fulfill their hate-agenda towards God, because if they do then that's just blind-faith (ironically something atheists accuse us theists of, lol).

So, it's not accurate to say that there is no constancy in science, simply because some parts of it may change. Science does not claim to be the finished article and that's one of the things that makes it so exciting!

I don't think any Muslims can say religion and science cant co-exist in peace but it rather depends on where you're going with science. Are you just trying to prove a point or trying to find new ways to benefit society as a whole, if its the latter then I don't see any reason why you cant believe in God at the same time!

But as for those scientists trying to prove an atheistic point, well...

/grabs popcorn, its gon' be a long ride!

[IAmZamzam]

Atheism isn't dear to me at all, and I don't hold to it with intent. I am a skeptic, but if actual convincing evidence came along, I would be quite open to accepting the facts as they are proved.

Forgive me but I don’t think that you would. You would just brush it all off as still being too tribalistic for your taste. I think you even told me once that you care just as much what effect beliefs have on people as whether or not they’re actually true.

I was going to congratulate you for taking a step up with the lottery analogy, but then I deleted my kudos when I saw this:

...and enter Russel's teapot, the FSM, the UPI, faeries, and ghosts. You absolutely cannot disprove any of those either. That doesn't mean you should believe they exist, or that they are remotely likely to exist.

I am now convinced that you’re incapable of learning. Thanks for bursting my bubble.

Atheists are…not all materialists. They are not all evolutionists.

Just like a fair number of them become atheists as old men. Again it’s true in theory. And again you present absolutely no evidence.

I’ll say it again, Pygoscelis, although you’ll just dance around it again. Most theists aren’t absolutely 100% certain that God does exist. Therefore we “lack belief” in atheism. That puts us in the same boat as you—along with, for that matter, most people taking most positions on most subjects in the world throughout history. If you had any confidence in your position at all then you would have no problem ceding such a small point as this. Is there any reason why you can’t just come out and call a spade a spade?

Interesting choice of video to post. I watched it. He never answers the question "Where is God". He says we shouldn't ask that question, because we don't know a whole lot. He seems to want us to remain in eternal ignorance about things. He then says he doesn't want to link Islam to science too much, and he is wise in this, because scientific understanding is constantly changing as we gain better understanding through study. Science is falsifiable, that's how it progresses, and if Islam made falsifiable claims, it could be falsified and that simply wouldn't do, because then he'd then have to admit that he didn't have the absolute truth handed down from on high

Ah yes, the old sermon. Brave, modern science moves forward; cowardly, bruja-stick-waving religion stays in place. I’m getting tired of explaining the numerous logical problems with these assertions. Besides which (1) You never listen to a word I say about anything. (2) It never does any good to explain these things to anyone: the sermon is rooted entirely in holier-than-thou “us vs. them” scorn, not reasoning, and thus the people making it are not open to persuasion of any kind, and (3) a paper I’m working on already is going to address it anyway. You want to know why “people here complain that atheists are arrogant”? Try the fact that you yourself make statements like “He is wise in this…science is falsifiable, that’s how it progresses, and if Islam made falsifiable claims, it could be falsified and that simply wouldn’t do, because then he’d have to admit that he didn’t have the absolute truth handed down from on high”. If I can’t convince you that comparing people’s beliefs to fairies is arrogant, can’t I at least make you see that? Oh who am I kidding? Of course I can’t! What am I saying???

[Independent]

all they will come up against proving the existence of God will be nothing more than theories!

This is not correct because, as I said, much of science is established and agreed and no longer theoretical. Evolution (since you mention Darwin) remains theoretical. You are wrong about him being intentionally anti-religion, however.

I don't think any Muslims can say religion and science cant co-exist in peace but it rather depends on where you're going with science. Are you just trying to prove a point or trying to find new ways to benefit society as a whole, if its the latter then I don't see any reason why you cant believe in God at the same time!

The great majority of scientists (including Darwin) simply follow where their studies take them. The implications for religion, if any, are almost always accidental.

As i say, if you choose to try and prove a religion by science (which i personally think is a mistake) you must accept scientific analysis and criticism.

[IAmZamzam]

Speaking of that video (which uses Youtube commenters, of all people, as an example of how theists are really aggressive people—classic!) , have you noticed how despite supposedly being about theism it shows its true colors at the end and reveals itself to really only be about Christianity? Somehow the matter always seems to boil down in the end to the religion the antireligious person was raised in or has had a bad experience with, or which is dominant in their culture. “Be honest with yourself”, the video says. This guy really should take his own advice.

[Pygoscelis]

that's a bit strong. Suffer from an inferiority complex much there pygo? seems like it.

I have friends I've known since childhood who are atheists, 3 on my street alone - so when you go and post a video which plays the "oh feel sorry for me coz I'm an atheist" card, it really does seem like you're grasping at straws...

Despite your continuous adhoms and personal attacks, no I am not trying to draw sympathy. I explained why I posted the video. It addresses that "atheists reject god" misunderstanding and gives some ideas on why that happens. I have long wondered why theists tell me I "reject" God or am "ungrateful" towards God or "hate" God, when I can't do any of those things towards something that does not exist. I always thought it was because they simply will not accept I really am an atheist (hence the need for this thread), but this guy offers another possible explanation.

I already answered that in the previous post, which you entirely ignored - so i'll put it in your face once more:

always find it odd that atheists will constantly ask for empirical proofs for the existence of God, whilst at the same time knowing that universe (effect) is limitied to a space time continuum.... meaning that the cause would be outside of that - how do you measure something that is outside of the space time continuum? Answer - you cannot.

I posted a lot last night, so perhaps you missed my response to your CERN analogy? It addressed what you are saying above. What you say here would apply to a deist vision of God. But as soon as we go beyond mere deism, as soon as God starts interacting with creation and within creation, we have something we can look at and try to measure.

And this something you just can't wrap your head around is it? And you talk to me of science... sure :D I fell off my chair laughing at your lack of logic here.

And yet you call me arrogant.

[Pygoscelis]

It's such an odd thread that atheists have to prove they exist!

Yes, it really is. I am happy to see that a good number of theists here do understand and acknowledge that atheists lack belief in God, but others here seem to just not get it, no matter how many times I say it or rephrase it with various examples or analogies.

From my understanding, atheists are people who don't have any faith that there is a God, this doesn't mean they rule out the existence of God but they just don't have faith that there is one. I don't see anything wrong with that, we have free-will after all

You win a cookie! Oh and I think there is still some cake from before. Have some of that too!

Is science opposed to faith? Are scientists trying to destroy religion? If you choose to say that your faith can in fact be proven by science, then at that point you make your religion 'fair game' for scientific debate, just like any other scientific concept. You have to accept that scientists will examine your supposed proof and may find it wanting.

Yes, and I think you open that up simply by making any falsifiable claim, which is why theists rarely do that.

[tearose]

Forgive me but I don’t think that you would. You would just brush it all off as still being too tribalistic for your taste. I think you even told me once that you care just as much what effect beliefs have on people as whether or not they’re actually true.

We shouldn't think like this brother. Remember this incident:

The Muslims did not believe that `Umar

could ever become a Muslim. Umm ‘Abdullaah bint Abu Huthmah

said: “While we were preparing to emigrate to Habashsah (i.e. Ethiopia), `Umar came, and he would inflict great harm upon us Muslims. When he saw us preparing to leave, he came and said to me: 'O Umm ‘Abdullaah! Are you preparing to set off?' I replied: `Yes! I swear by Allaah! We leave and travel in the land of Allaah, as you have afflicted much torture upon us.` He said: `May Allaah be with you in company.` I noticed that his position had softened in this conversation, and perceived that he was saddened by what we were having to endure. I said to my husband, `You should have seen `Umar - how sad he looked and how soft he was in his tone.' My husband replied: `Are you hoping he becomes a Muslim?` I said: `Yes.` He said: `If this man’s donkey were to become a Muslim, perhaps then he would embrace Islam.`” He said this because he had given up all hope of `Umar

becoming Muslim due to his harsh and aggressive stance against the Muslims. However, when Allaah wills guidance for someone, He facilitates the means for his guidance, even if such a person has the hardest heart on earth and is the furthest from Allaah. This is a lesson for all those who call others to Islam to never despair or give up on people, regardless of how harsh they may be. When Allaah wills goodness for someone, He will facilitate for him the means of guidance.
(taken from http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...cles&id=143859)

It can be the opposite way too - remember the case of Abu Talib. So it isn't for us to say who is or isn't likely to be guided to the truth. All we can do is try to deliver the message. Allah subhanahu wa taala guides whom He wills.

[Pygoscelis]

Forgive me but I don’t think that you would. You would just brush it all off as still being too tribalistic for your taste.

Just because something is tribalistic doesn't mean I'd brush it off as not existing. Sports teams are tribalistic. I do not lack belief in baseball.

I think you even told me once that you care just as much what effect beliefs have on people as whether or not they’re actually true.

Yes, you recall correctly. I am as concerned with the actions of followers as in what they believe or if what they believe is true. I don't mind that my friends believe in things I don't, so long as these beliefs help them or inspire them to be good to each other, and so long as they don't harm them and inspire them towards harming others.

That is an entirely different matter than my own beliefs though, or lack of them.

I was going to congratulate you for taking a step up with the lottery analogy, but then I deleted my kudos when I saw this

...and enter Russel's teapot, the FSM, the UPI, faeries, and ghosts. You absolutely cannot disprove any of those either. That doesn't mean you should believe they exist, or that they are remotely likely to exist.

I brought those up because the post I was responding to is exactly what inspired them.

The Santa, FSM, UPI, Russell's tea pot, and the numerology analogies are all made to show that just because you can't disprove something doesn't mean we should believe them. The FSM and UPI examples were purposefully designed to be ridiculous to make this point especially blatant.

I can see why the ridicule that comes with the FSM and UPI examples may be seen as offensive or arrogant, but you don't seem to have a problem with lacing your posts full of adhoms and personal attacks, so why should I be terribly concerned?

I am now convinced that you’re incapable of learning. Thanks for bursting my bubble.

There we go again.

Atheists are…not all materialists. They are not all evolutionists.

Just like a fair number of them become atheists as old men. Again it’s true in theory. And again you present absolutely no evidence.

Wait. What? Do you deny the existence of people who don't subscribe to evolution and also don't believe in Gods? Do you deny the existence of people who don't believe in Gods but believe in other spiritual things like ghosts, chi, etc? There are plenty of people in Asia and elsewhere who follow sects of eastern "religions" that don't require any God belief. Do you deny that?

I’ll say it again, Pygoscelis, although you’ll just dance around it again. Most theists aren’t absolutely 100% certain that God does exist. Therefore we “lack belief” in atheism. That puts us in the same boat as you

I already addressed that. Perhaps you missed it.

You hold a belief that I lack. And I don't know you personally, but I will bet very strongly that you hold this belief pretty strongly and that it is dear to you. Atheism isn't dear to me at all, and I don't hold to it with intent. I am a skeptic, but if actual convincing evidence came along, I would be quite open to accepting the facts as they are proved. Unfortunately theists usually make their Gods and the claims about them unfalsifiable, so no such evidence is likely to be found.

(1) You never listen to a word I say about anything.

If that were true you would have nothing to respond to, such as the text above.

(2) It never does any good to explain these things to anyone

If nobody understands you, then you are not explaining yourself very well.

the sermon is rooted entirely in holier-than-thou “us vs. them” scorn, not reasoning, and thus the people making it are not open to persuasion of any kind, and

Have you actually read through and thought about the responses? Religion deals in answers, revelation, tradition and faith. Science deals in questions, falsification, and revision and progress. Which you prefer is up to you. The two can co-exist to a certain extent as Indian Bro has said. Mixing them can expose religion to scrutiny as Independent has said. Perhaps the core difference and source of conflict is that religion regards faith as a strength and science regards it as a weakness.

(3) a paper I’m working on already is going to address it anyway.

Please post it to the forum. I would like to read it.

Try the fact that you yourself make statements like “He is wise in this…science is falsifiable, that’s how it progresses, and if Islam made falsifiable claims, it could be falsified and that simply wouldn’t do, because then he’d have to admit that he didn’t have the absolute truth handed down from on high”

You call this arrogant but you don't address it. If Islam boldly made a testable claim, and we tested it, and we found it false, that would be a serious problem... it would force Muslims to admit that they had to make a revision and didn't always have the absolute truth. Am I wrong? It makes good sense that Islam wouldn't make such testable and falsifiable claims.

[Pygoscelis]

Somehow the matter always seems to boil down in the end to the religion the antireligious person was raised in or has had a bad experience with, or which is dominant in their culture.

I don't think that should surprise anybody. Of course people will address the claims that have been put to them. If you are raised in a Christian society, you are going to address Christianity. That doesn't make his points regarding theism in general any less interesting (the cartoon part of the video - the part I enjoyed and posted the video for).

[IAmZamzam]

Well I guess that if someone had met me during my own atheism and guessed that ten years later I'd be a Muslim then you would probably have looked at him funny, sure. But while I don't claim to be able to see the future I do claim to be an at least marginally competent judge of character, and to have a working memory. I don't know what will be but I know what I have seen and I know what I see now. That I can't look directly at this man's soul is my one and only comfort in all this. I'm praying that I'm wrong about him. I'm praying for him. But the behavior he's put on display is predictable to a tee.

Well, okay, not entirely. I had a little mental poll running with myself in this thread, for example, and lost it. I didn't expect him to make it anywhere near two pages before saying "tribalism". I thought he'd be out long before that.

He is wise in this…science is falsifiable, that’s how it progresses, and if Islam made falsifiable claims, it could be falsified and that simply wouldn’t do, because then he’d have to admit that he didn’t have the absolute truth handed down from on high.

Now that...is tribalism. QED.

[IAmZamzam]

I don't think that should surprise anybody. Of course people will address the claims that have been put to them. If you are raised in a Christian society, you are going to address Christianity. That doesn't make his points regarding theism in general any less interesting (the cartoon part of the video - the part I enjoyed and posted the video for).

That is one of only many excuses I've heard, along with "Christianity is the most damaging religion", "Christianity is the one which makes the most impact", "Christianity is the one which has the most local impact around here", "Christianity is the most disgusting", and so on—of which the last is probably the closest to the real motive.

As for his "points"...well, what's the use in discussing them? I could explain at length all about what a rejector or kafir actually is in the original Arabic of our scripture but you'd just argue that it's irrelevant to his points since he's not talking about Islam specifically. I could argue that he's tarring all believers with the same brush and the video is just a hateful smear campaign disguised as a plea against hateful smear campaigns, but while this is blatantly true you would brush it off with the phrase "straw man". I could argue that I myself don't exhibit the pattern of behavior he's talking about but then you'd just say, "Well, then it's not addressed to you, is it?" But then why are you bringing it to me? And I see that pointing out that the video is just an embittered attack on Christianity in disguise has already failed me. I don't suppose it'll do any good to explain that these angry and nasty traits listed in the video are actually associated with atheists in conjuction with other people and not with God? That's the trick. And it is common. I didn't say universal but common. Very, very, very, very, very common. How many popular writers for atheism don’t exhibit them? Christopher Hitchens is the poster child for it. If only someone had gone up to him and bored a hole through him and drained out all the bile you could have buried him in a matchbox.

[Berries'forest]

It is kind of strange that a thread that started out by explaining how atheism in general is a lack of belief that is not based on solid evidence is shifted to centering around how science is to a degree more unfalsafiable then religion is. Well, first you'd have to have alot of faith to actually stand on scientific methods as a means of finding 'unfalsifiable' truths. And I think in the bottom line what we really want atheists to say that they don't just have a ''lack of faith'' that would imply they're faithless in just about everything in life, they should complete that state meant with God. Atheism isn't just a lack of faith. Oh and the video you posted was way off. Really what does romantic rejection have to do with a thesist feeling rejected by an atheist. And seriously there had to have been some sort of catalyst to trigger those ''pent up'' frustrations a theist feels. I am my own God? and even moreso the God I believe in turns out to be none other than my own Ego?. Talk about self-delusion, come on if he wanted theists to co-operate with him than he'd have to do much better than playing mind games on them. Don't you notice how he made up a thesis of his own just to ustify for us our own belief system. And how would he feel if I in turn gave him a corresponding reply that he is his own Id, following his false tenses about God and morality just to give him comfort and a better less harsh undersatnding of this world. I also answered the 'An answer to everything' video linked attached with it. Another example of how low minded they think we are making fun of us because we believe God is good. Well for one thing; just because some atheists can't experience theism or belief in God doesn't give them the right to brush it off as none existant. An atheist wont understand theism just as aman wont understand what it's like to be a woman-since they've definined atheism a mere lack of belief anyway it falls in proper terms- so wouldn't it be violating fro a man to claim that women don't suffer they're just putting on a self-deluded show to attract attention and to comfort their unstable egos. If atheist can't fully grasp an understanding of theism then why don't they jsut assume that position without getting into diversion of why theism is false and how people made up relgion to comfort their egos.I think we would appreciate it if they stopped that.

[Berries'forest]

I also answered

Pardon typos; I didn't answer it what was I thinking, I watched it.

[IAmZamzam]

That wasn't the point of the video at all. The point of it was that Christianity defines all religion and atheists are poor, poor martyrs whereas Christians--pardon me, theists--are the genuinely aggressive people who are just projecting their own faults onto others. Mind you, that wasn't supposed to be the point of it but it's easy enough to see through the smokescreen. The point is supposed to be that atheists who always get yelled at just for being what they are and wrongly accused of being aggressive are just having that done to them because theists are really feeling that its their own selves who are being turned away, not our God.

Thing is, I still never act aggressive toward anyone for being an atheist just on general principles. And while I admit, disturbed as I am by the fact, that I'm slwoly starting to develop a bad association--to get a chill when I hear someone announce that they are an atheist--it's only because I so rarely meet one who isn't aggressive and antisocial and REALLY immature--or at least arrogant. When they're talking about God or religion, that is. Or at least Christianity (or fill in the blanks with whatever religion they have bad blood with here). Sometimes I get just as bad as them in response. It's hard to be patient with childish people nine hundred times in a row. But this happened slowly. At first I had no problem at all. Nobody ever gets traumatized on purpose.

[GuestFellow]

Who cares if they exist. They are harmless. The most they can do is hurt our feelings and go bwaaaaaaah you believe in santa and we don't.

[Berries'forest]

So the purpose of the video was to advertise the self pity atheists have?. Does everyone just have to use the 'they're born that way, they can't help it' card to justify their points. Well, I guess it kind of makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up. By the way there's another one called 'can't have it both ways' I also came across it was more than just a laugh.

[Abu Loren]

Honestly who cares if atheists exist? Let them all go to hell.

[IAmZamzam]

What would make religious claims "falsifiable" in the first place?

[جوري]

Quite.
I cannot think of a test which would prove (or disprove) God's existence either. Hence it continues to be a question of faith.

If you can't commentate on that, then why allege that:

stand up to scientific scrutiny.

I can only draw a few conclusions from the above all of them render the belief of atheism lacking on multiple levels and where 'science' plays absolutely no factors, at least no factors that deal with the origin of life that don't render themselves to fairy tales.
If you're comfortable marginalizing your religion to some relic of antiquity which has no place in modern society save for a few pithy sayings by which some can live their lives then do so only in part and don't include the whole!

best,

[Berries'forest]

What would make religious claims "falsifiable" in the first place?

Is this directed to me?. Well from an atheistic point of view I think they believe that religious claims can never be fully proven to be true...this is why the say that religious claims are not supposed to be falsifiable in first place. Just my two cents..

[Berries'forest]

Better they hate me for my candor than love me for hypocrisy

Sister with the arabic name that's a nice saying^.

[جوري]

Sister with the arabic name that's a nice saying^.

:jz: :D

[Pygoscelis]

So the purpose of the video was to advertise the self pity atheists have?

No. It is this guy's attempt to understand and explain why so many theists will say things like:

"Atheists reject God"

"Atheists hate God"

"Atheists think they know better than God"

"Atheists are arrogant and don't appreciate what God does for them"

"Atheists don't want to be responsible to God"

I have spotted each of these statements, and others like them, on this forum. None of them make any sense if you recognize that atheists don't believe in God.

This guy in the video disagrees with me that the statements above come from theists simply not believing atheists when we say we don't believe in God. I think some of them read from their religions that we all know God exists (we saw that earlier in the thread), so they think that and hold to that no matter what an actual atheist may say.

The guy in the video thinks there is more to it than that. He thinks theists say these things because they feel rejected when the atheist doesn't share their view, and he thinks they do so because they somehow mix their own identity with that of their God.

Regardless of why it happens, it happens a lot. No matter how many times I say I am an atheist and that I do not believe in God, some theists continue to declare or assume that I believe in God.

Do you have your own theory of why this happens? Why do theists so often accuse atheists of secretly believing in Gods?

[IAmZamzam]

Never mind. Every argument I've had with you, Pygoscelis, has been exactly the same from the very start. Exactly the same. I explain till I'm blue in the face why religion isn't "tribalistic" and you, in fact, are the one being tribal with your scornful dismissals like, “He is wise in this…science is falsifiable, that’s how it progresses, and if Islam made falsifiable claims, it could be falsified and that simply wouldn’t do, because then he’d have to admit that he didn’t have the absolute truth handed down from on high.” You refuse to listen to me and you continue to repeat yourself.

I explain till I’m blue in the face that you don’t “lack belief” in anything, except in the same sense that anyone who isn’t totally 100% convinced of any position doesn’t, and therefore anyone who isn’t convinced of their own views to the point of flagrant overconfidence could just turn right around and say that they have a “lack of belief” in atheism and throw your own arguments right back at you. You refuse to listen to me and you continue to repeat yourself.

I explain till I’m blue in the face what’s wrong with the “if God made the universe then where did God come from?” argument. You completely ignore everything I say, accuse me of being cryptic and not making any sense without saying why—without asking for any clarification at all—and continue to repeat yourself. Like none of it ever happened.

I explain, time and again, what’s wrong with all these Santa Claus/flying spaghetti monster/fairy analogies. I give you reason after reason. I may as well be speaking Martian. You clam up, force yourself to miss the point, and pretend that the only thing that matters is the supposed thrust of the argument. All the while hypocritically criticizing me for my “adhoms”. (Why oh WHY does nobody ever use that term correctly???) What, do two wrongs make a right now? I don't care what the point of the analogies is. Is that clear?? No of course not. And it won't matter even if it is. You’re not literally incapable of learning, you’re just unwilling to do so. There are none so blind as those who will not see. This really is amazing. Farcical, even: that I have to get into so many and such impassioned debates about the ethics of comparing people’s most deeply cherished convictions to spaghetti monsters. It is so farcical, in fact, that it’s an insult to my limited mortal lifespan. I’m going to have to make a vow to myself now never to deign to do it again.

Maybe the example of Umar is appropriate. Maybe someday somebody will get through to you. But that somebody apparently will not be me. I’m not the man for the job. I’m either not talented enough or at least lack the fortitude. It requires more patience than I have at this admittedly delicate juncture in my life. You’re trying me way too much. I can do you no good. You are more mellow and courteous towards believers than most of the atheists I talk to and I hope I haven’t given the impression that I undervalue that (in fact you've probably come across looking like an angel in some of our arguments, which may give people an excuse if they want to make some real ad hominems--which is another potential problem)—but all this obsessively constant talk of tribalism is indeed a huge, huge projection. If you’re not the single most changeless and intractable human being I’ve encountered on this or any other message board, you’re at least beyond any hope of positive change by my hand, nor do I predict that anything you can say might ever have any positive effect on me. Therefore I don’t see anything to it but to put you on my “ignore” list and just pray for you. Sorry.

[جوري]

Do you have your own theory of why this happens? Why do theists so often accuse atheists of secretly believing in Gods?

They're programmed to do so.. how else do you explain your obsession with an Islamic forum and talks of God and constant assertion of your beliefs? Do you think people here lose sleep over your personal beliefs or lack thereof?

best,

[~Zaria~]

I explain till I’m blue in the face what’s wrong with the “if God made the universe then where did God come from?” argument. You completely ignore everything I say, accuse me of being cryptic and not making any sense without saying why—without asking for any clarification at all—and continue to repeat yourself. Like none of it ever happened.

SubhanAllah, thats exactly how i felt a few months ago on another atheist-related thread.
Theres a whole list of questions that have been completely ignored.
Cant exactly blame them......when they possess no reasonable explanations.
Which makes any sensible conversation close to impossible....

Therefore I don’t see anything to it but to put you on my “ignore” list and just pray for you. Sorry.

That makes two of us.
Wallahi, it will save you a lot of precious time.


:wasalamex

[Pygoscelis]

It is one thing to lace your posts with rude language and personal attacks, but if that is going to be the entirety of your post I would ask that you simply private message it so not to take the thread off topic.

In an attempt to get the thread back on topic, I'll post again:

"Atheists reject God"

"Atheists hate God"

"Atheists think they know better than God"

"Atheists are arrogant and don't appreciate what God does for them"

"Atheists don't want to be responsible to God"

I have spotted each of these statements, and others like them, on this forum. None of them make any sense if you recognize that atheists don't believe in God.

This guy in the video disagrees with me that the statements above come from theists simply not believing atheists when we say we don't believe in God. I think some of them read from their religions that we all know God exists (we saw that earlier in the thread), so they think that and hold to that no matter what an actual atheist may say.

The guy in the video thinks there is more to it than that. He thinks theists say these things because they feel rejected when the atheist doesn't share their view, and he thinks they do so because they somehow mix their own identity with that of their God.

Regardless of why it happens, it happens a lot. No matter how many times I say I am an atheist and that I do not believe in God, some theists continue to declare or assume that I believe in God.

Do you have your own theory of why this happens? Why do theists so often accuse atheists of secretly believing in Gods?

[Berries'forest]

Do you have your own theory of why this happens? Why do theists so often accuse atheists of secretly believing in Gods?

I am no theorist but I think that maybe it has to do with not knowing enough about both atheism and their religion in general. I think the people who would have the most problem with accepting that atheists are secretly deviant believers would be those who can't conceive how anyone can deny the existance of God. Sometimes I think maybe just maybe I'm not sure though; that some people emotionally react towards atheists because they are not fully identified with the nature of atheism. The first thing that pops up to any average theist are the likes of Charles Darwin (even though he in a sense was not considered an official atheist but his works tell more than enough to make that conclusion) or Stephen Hawking. That image of a bitter and hateful person who is lashing out on others because of his own failure to understanding the essence of faith- hey I'm not personally speaking but that's what I've observed. And I would have to admit that I think that both parties often don't feel comfortable with each other. They both assume defensive positions and eventhough you state that you have no more a problem with the existance of God than that of which you'd have with believing in UFOs or FSM. It's much more profound than just a good night story mom used to tell before tucking us in bed. It really is an I doubt anyone surpassed the age of even 7 without realizing that Santa Claus was a fictional character if not before if the parents weren't careful enough. The sentiment of God is much more a universal concept than it is an imagenary one.

　

You maybe think that you have a 'right' to feel confused as to why the maority of theists do infact and in very very real terms get offended by every means the word can hold when they hear an atheists making parellels of God to faeries and other fictional characters. We all have our preconceived ideas about what to expect when talking to an atheist by which I mean there almost always has to be an animosity sparked between which is natural it is the same reason why atheists themselves often gather into groups of people who share the same opinions and beliefs. And one of the reasons which may lead us to think that atheists do actually in some wayor another have a faith depp down is that really and this time answer me honestly. Ever since you found out that Santa Claus was a popular cultural lie that parents tell their children about before Christmas, and after you've fully understood how he can't possibly exist even if you wanted him to?. Did you spend one more second pondering and trying to discover why other kids belive in him? I highly doubt that because simply you grew out of it. It was just a phase and you were more than convinced that one day children will find out santa clas is not real. Then give me just a logical reason why any atheist would 'waste' his or her time argueing and debating with theists on how non-existant they perceive their God is. If it didn't really intruigue them that there is a possible that theists are not wrong afterall and 'maybe' their is a God.

I think the video you posted gave it out pretty clearly when in the last bit of the cartoon displayed the narrator said something like ' the atheist does not 'reject' Gloria but rather he/she rejects the 'false' portryal of Gloria and if Gloria simply showed herself to Anthony then he would surely believe that she exists'. First it not only raises a new standing that atheists are taking now that 'hey we're open to your beliefs as long as you can prove it to us' and guess what we only accept blatant materialistic evidence non other resembled in the request that Gloria has to some how show herself as if she was hiding somewhere from Anthony but not Gloria. It also raises that atheists do infact have a problem with God; in the terms that they reject the protrayal of God defined by theists otherwise even if he did turn out to exist it makes you wonder if they would still believe in him. So an atheist would 'reject' the theistic defined sentiment of God even if he did in fact exist but in order for them to restore that lack of faith you'd have to offer an entirely different image of God; which they'd not accept anyway as stated in your previous post :"You could edit Darth Vader to be a cute bunny with cape and respirator and I still wouldn't believe in him either".


I think most theists do actually believe that atheists have some kind of faith--that's ingrained-- and in a sense they also do believe that no one is born an atheists. And atheist adopts atheists ideas because they embrace notions from evolution and other sources that God does not exist and there is no Intelligent design in the universe by that which I mean they do also belive that it was an age-based phasing process and not an immediate one. We do actaully at least some of us have a hard time believing that. Especially that before a period of time it was fairly common that an atheist would denounced his/her faith with refering to have been a former follower of any faith but then suddenly lost their faith and now they are completelysaying 'No, despite the fact that some of us were brought up in religous house holds, we can't remember a time at which we ever actaully had any faith we always lacked that faith in God other believers around us seemed to have' and which also brings up the arguement that 'there are no atheists in foxholes' that based the foundation that an atheist was a believer but lost his her faith because of the distrust in God or failure to observe patience. I know you didn't ask for such a lengthy reply but I thought if would give a broader perspective of why we actually aren't project but rather predicting.

[Pygoscelis]

Berries, that is a very well thought out post. I am about to rush off on a work assignment, so didn't want to dash off a quick response to a post that deserves a full and proper read and response. I will respond later today or tomorrow. I think you make some good points.

[Berries'forest]

Okay then I'll be waiting and good luck on your assignment.

[IAmZamzam]

Atheists get accused of secretly believing in God so much because for each insistence from their writers that they don't believe that God even exists in the first place there are three spittle-flecked criticisms of His character, sounding every bit as harsh and sincere as they would be if spoken about a particularly annoying next-door neighbor. It also looks suspicious that it's so awfully rare to find a single one of these people who, despite their being so allegedly in a position of theoretical indifference (seeing as how they're talking about someone who isn't supposed real at all), is ever willing to admit to the possibility of a loving or beneficent Deity. Pretty much without exception you hear the same story every time, to the point of exhausted cliche: "The only kind of God I could even conceive of, let alone see myself considering for a moment, is a cruel and merciless one, and even that kind looks unlikely enough." But of course there is a very easy alternate explanation for the latter: It's all about Christianity, just like I said. Their antireligious sentiments are mere youthful backlash. This has been studied and written about.

[Scimitar]

Atheists get accused of secretly believing in God

only in times of desperation.

I recall a story of when some brothers went to give dawah to an atheist man who was looking after his daughter while his wife was at work. He let his daughter (still a child) play on the street, while he stood outside and talked to the daiee's.

His daughter ran out onto the street and narrowly missed getting run over by a car... the first words out of the atheists mouth at that point where, "Oh God"...

...the daiee's looked at him, and then smiled, then just walked away... what can you tell a guy who is so compromised that he hasn't figured out what he is yet?

Answer: nada... just pray for him.

Scimi

[GuestFellow]

I think atheists need to sit down and figure out how life started. This world cannot start from nothing unless if you believe life/material comes from nothing. You can argue where did God come from. Well we will all find out when we die. I believe in this world there must be a creator as we don't have things popping out from nowhere.

[Berries'forest]

I wish I can edit my post. There are so many typos and grammatical errors. But I can't because I'm still a limited member so I apologize for the inconveniency it caused for people reading it.

[GuestFellow]

^ Don't worry about that! No need to apologize.

[Berries'forest]

Thank you Guest fellow.







But I'll make an attempt to correct and add some of the things I forgot to mention.

You maybe think that you have a 'right' to feel confused as to why the majority of theists do infact and in very very real terms do get offended by every means the word can hold when they hear an atheist making parellels and comparisons of God to faeries and other fictional characters.That's because we take it personally and also we take it as either a fixed position of general dismissal or just plain disrespect. We all have our preconceived ideas about what to expect when talking to an atheist on religious matters. By which I mean there almost always has to be an animosity sparked between both parties which are natural and if it wasn't that serious enough and atheists did really think of God as non existant why do we see that they pay excessive effort in refuting religious claims and criticisng religious beliefs. That animosity is the fuel that leads a theist to think that atheists do really have some kind of faith that they are struggling to repress and therefore we normally would think then why are they so passionate about discussing religious issue. If they really are indifferent then that should be clear by disinterest and not the opposite. Also there is the sense of belonging between theists which is natural it is the same reason why atheists themselves often gather into groups with people who share the same opinions and beliefs. One of the reasons which may lead us to think that atheists do actually in some way or another have a faith deep down inside is tht we can't find any possible reason as to why they claim that they are only interested in religion just to broaden their perspective of the world of theists. I have a question to ask you and really and this time answer me honestly. Ever since you found out that Santa Claus was a popular cultural lie that parents tell their children about before Christmas, and after you've fully understood how he can't possibly exist even if you wanted him to?. Did you spend one more second pondering and trying to discover why other kids still believe him to be true? I highly doubt that. Because simply you grew out of it. It was just a phase and you were more than convinced that one day other children will find out santa clas is not real. Then give me just a logical reason why any atheist would 'waste' his or her time argueing and debating with theists on how non-existant they perceive their God is. If it didn't really intruigue them that there is a possiblity that theists may not wrong afterall and 'maybe' their is a God.

First it not only raises a new standing that atheists are taking now that 'hey we're open to your beliefs as long as you can prove it to us' and guess what we only accept blatant materialistic evidence non other which is clearly resembled in the request the narrator pleaded that Gloria has to some how show herself to Anthony before he is fully convinced. As if she was hiding somewhere from Anthony but not Theresa.[/

An atheist adopts atheistic ideas because they embrace notions from evolution theory and other sources that God does not exist and that there is no Intelligent design in the universe which obviously don't adapt very well with religious beliefs. We do also believe that it was an age-based phasing process and not an immediate one contary to what atheists are saying now ( lack or loss of faith issue).And we do actaully at least some of us have a hard time believing that. Especially that before a period of time it was fairly common that an atheist whom denounced his/her faith would refer to have been a former follower of any particular faith when they were younger but then suddenly lost their faith and now they switched arguements in which firmly saying 'No, despite the fact that some of us were brought up in religous house holds, we can't remember a time at which we ever actaully had any faith to begin with. We always lacked that faith in God other believers around us seemed to have'. Which also brings up the arguement that 'there are no atheists in foxholes' is what based the foundation that an atheist was a believer but lost his her faith because of their distrust in God or failure to observe patience. I know you didn't ask for such a lengthy reply but I thought if would give a broader perspective of why we actually aren't projecting but rather predicting.

I hope this cleared somethings up.

[IAmZamzam]

I think atheists need to sit down and figure out how life started. This world cannot start from nothing unless if you believe life/material comes from nothing. You can argue where did God come from. Well we will all find out when we die. I believe in this world there must be a creator as we don't have things popping out from nowhere.

Don't even think about it. First off I’ve explained before that I’ve tried and tried and tried to explain what’s wrong with the “where did God come from” evasion before--about six totally different things wrong with it--and it does not work. The reason for this is because it’s an evasion. They need their defense mechanism very badly. It’s just an excuse to avoid the question of where the universe came from. That’s why it’s never brought up in any other context whatsoever, and that’s why they cling to it so ardently and refuse to let go under any circumstances. It’s like playing tug-of-war with a stubborn dog who’s gotten hold of your valuables.

Second, like I’ve said before semantics is their rod, their shield and their armor. So because of the age and prevalence of the “something from nothing” argument they’ve made sure in recent times to come into this issue so well covered these days that it's not even funny. It's just too easy: all they have to do is redefine the word "nothing" so as to mean "a whole lot of different somethings including a slew of physical laws, a lot of mathematical principles and a ton of fields—not to mention a whole heaping lot of luck" and they're off the hook. Their materialistic way of looking at the world, you see, already necessitates that they take all of these things completely for granted so as not to come dangerously close to teleological thinking. On the rare occasion that they do think about them at all they have all kinds of further instances of semantic sleight-of-hand they can use with which to continue the task of not having to consider where any of these somethings come from or how they end up getting patterned so neatly and giving such order to the world. Most especially by, once again, evading the issue and deflecting it back onto God: where did He come from? Who designed Him? What laws is He subject to? You see their game? Deflection and semantics, dear boy, it’s all about that. In an argument a materialist’s subconscious mind revolves almost completely around those two grooves. Remember that and you’ll avoid any number of mistakes, and number of migraines.

[Iceee]

only in times of desperation.

I recall a story of when some brothers went to give dawah to an atheist man who was looking after his daughter while his wife was at work. He let his daughter (still a child) play on the street, while he stood outside and talked to the daiee's.

His daughter ran out onto the street and narrowly missed getting run over by a car... the first words out of the atheists mouth at that point where, "Oh God"...

...the daiee's looked at him, and then smiled, then just walked away... what can you tell a guy who is so compromised that he hasn't figured out what he is yet?

Answer: nada... just pray for him.

I took World Religion class last year.

Our teacher told us about his childhood best-friend. My teacher and his friend were raised Christian (Roman Catholic) but the friend started moving away and away from religion doubting God and his existence and by the age of 16, he stopped going to Church with his family. The friend started having a good life, having a Girlfriend, getting good marks, part-time job etc.

Skip time; the man marries a woman and they are having a wonderful life. Both have jobs and they get along just fine with one-another. The friend and his wife decided to have a baby now, the mans WISH in life was to have a child. It took a while but it worked, the wife got gotten pregnant, they were really excited. The child was born and the family thought everything was going to be alright. A month after birth, the child was diagnosed with Cancer.

Now tell me what a man does when his child who he always wishes he had id affected by Cancer? Does he go to doctor and begs to cure his son? Kill himself? What does he do?
In times of desperation, he chose to believe in God once again asking to cure his son suffering, crying, dying.

[GuestFellow]

Don't even think about it.

o_o

First off I’ve explained before that I’ve tried and tried and tried to explain what’s wrong with the “where did God come from” evasion before--about six totally different things wrong with it--and it does not work. The reason for this is because it’s an evasion. They need their defense mechanism very badly. It’s just an excuse to avoid the question of where the universe came from. That’s why it’s never brought up in any other context whatsoever, and that’s why they cling to it so ardently and refuse to let go under any circumstances. It’s like playing tug-of-war with a stubborn dog who’s gotten hold of your valuables.

It can be used to divert from the main question of where did the universe comes from. However, not all atheists are proposing this question to avoid the main topic. You cannot deny that there are some atheists who sincerely want to know where God has come from.

Second, like I’ve said before semantics is their rod, their shield and their armor. So because of the age and prevalence of the “something from nothing” argument they’ve made sure in recent times to come into this issue so well covered these days that it's not even funny. It's just too easy: all they have to do is redefine the word "nothing" so as to mean "a whole lot of different somethings including a slew of physical laws, a lot of mathematical principles and a ton of fields—not to mention a whole heaping lot of luck" and they're off the hook. Their materialistic way of looking at the world, you see, already necessitates that they take all of these things completely for granted so as not to come dangerously close to teleological thinking. On the rare occasion that they do think about them at all they have all kinds of further instances of semantic sleight-of-hand they can use with which to continue the task of not having to consider where any of these somethings come from or how they end up getting patterned so neatly and giving such order to the world. Most especially by, once again, evading the issue and deflecting it back onto God: where did He come from? Who designed Him? What laws is He subject to? You see their game? Deflection and semantics, dear boy, it’s all about that. In an argument a materialist’s subconscious mind revolves almost completely around those two grooves. Remember that and you’ll avoid any number of mistakes, and number of migraines.

LOL you just called me a dear boy. XD I appreciate the response and I will keep it in mind.

I will repeat. Some atheists are curious and want to know more about God. Who is God, where has he come from, why has he created us and so on. These are the types of questions many people ask, even believers. Also I'm aware some atheists use these arguments to avoid addressing the main issue.

[IAmZamzam]

o_o

Oh, I hope you didn't think of that as a threat or anything!

You cannot deny that there are some atheists who sincerely want to know where God has come from...These are the types of questions many people ask, even believers.

No, I've never seen this--around me at least. Maybe if they're three. If they were sincere then then I'd at least occasionally hear them bring it up at other times.

[GuestFellow]

Oh, I hope you didn't think of that as a threat or anything!

You kinda caught me off surprise.

No, I've never seen this--around me at least. Maybe if they're three. If they were sincere then then I'd at least occasionally hear them bring it up at other times.

Okay I understand. I admit I haven't met many atheists who sincerely ask these questions but I'm sure there are a few that do. Most atheists on forums and Internet have already made up their minds so it is unlikely you will come across atheists online who want to see knowledge.

[Scimitar]

I took World Religion class last year.

Our teacher told us about his childhood best-friend. My teacher and his friend were raised Christian (Roman Catholic) but the friend started moving away and away from religion doubting God and his existence and by the age of 16, he stopped going to Church with his family. The friend started having a good life, having a Girlfriend, getting good marks, part-time job etc.

Skip time; the man marries a woman and they are having a wonderful life. Both have jobs and they get along just fine with one-another. The friend and his wife decided to have a baby now, the mans WISH in life was to have a child. It took a while but it worked, the wife got gotten pregnant, they were really excited. The child was born and the family thought everything was going to be alright. A month after birth, the child was diagnosed with Cancer.

Now tell me what a man does when his child who he always wishes he had id affected by Cancer? Does he go to doctor and begs to cure his son? Kill himself? What does he do?
In times of desperation, he chose to believe in God once again asking to cure his son suffering, crying, dying.

Just as a child who falls over and scrapes its knee in a hospital corridor, running past doctors and nurses to seek out his/her mother for comfort... so should humans in their time of need, seek out their creator :) it is after all, completely natural to do so.

but many have gone cold in heart, and therefore hate on a God they say they don't believe exists. They have veils on their hearts.

Scimi

[MustafaMc]

No, it isn't. Anything beyond that absence of belief in God goes beyond mere atheism.

It can mean mean the atheist doesn't believe in God or that the atheist believes there is no God.

No, it isn't. Anything beyond that absence of belief in God goes beyond mere atheism.[/quote]Perhaps you will be so kind as to humor me and explain the difference.

[MustafaMc]

Ever since you found out that Santa Claus was a popular cultural lie that parents tell their children about before Christmas, and after you've fully understood how he can't possibly exist even if you wanted him to?. Did you spend one more second pondering and trying to discover why other kids still believe him to be true? I highly doubt that. Because simply you grew out of it.

That is an interesting point. So you are basically saying, "Would such a kid want to 'hang out' with other kids who believed in Santa Claus or would he feel they were too immature for him to relate to"?

[Berries'forest]

That is an interesting point. So you are basically saying, "Would such a kid want to 'hang out' with other kids who believed in Santa Claus or would he feel they were too immature for him to relate to"?

I'm not sure if he'd hang out with them. I've seen some kids telling their friends that santa is a lie. The thing is the child rarely ever goes on a discovery voyage to inestigate why other kids still believe in santa. I'm not sure if atheist feel that they're too good for theists but iti'd be informing to know why they hold such an interest in religion if they view religious beliefs the same way they view santa claus and FSMs.

[Pygoscelis]

It also looks suspicious that it's so awfully rare to find a single one of these people who, despite their being so allegedly in a position of theoretical indifference (seeing as how they're talking about someone who isn't supposed real at all), is ever willing to admit to the possibility of a loving or beneficent Deity. Pretty much without exception you hear the same story every time, to the point of exhausted cliche: "The only kind of God I could even conceive of, let alone see myself considering for a moment, is a cruel and merciless one, and even that kind looks unlikely enough."

I would like to know who you are quoting here, because I have never said that, nor have I ever heard an atheist say that. I do think I know where you get it from though. A lot of atheists will look at the world and the problem of evil and euthyphro's dilemma and conclude that a benevolent, loving, all powerful, and all knowing God makes no logical sense to them. Many see tyrant gods or gods who treat us as play things (like the Greek Gods) as more coherent ideas given the world we live in. It doesn't mean the atheist thinking this believes in any such Gods. It is just an intellectual exercise, no different than they would do with other fictional characters.

[Pygoscelis]

I think atheists need to sit down and figure out how life started.

Science tries, but it is fallible and incomplete, and will likely always be so.

It isn't a bad thing to admit you don't know what you don't know. It doesn't mean you should make up answers, or call it "Magick" or call it "God did it".

[Pygoscelis]

You maybe think that you have a 'right' to feel confused as to why the majority of theists do infact and in very very real terms do get offended by every means the word can hold when they hear an atheist making parellels and comparisons of God to faeries and other fictional characters.That's because we take it personally and also we take it as either a fixed position of general dismissal or just plain disrespect.

Just faeries and FSM and UPI or all fictional characters? Isn't it offensive because the FSM and IPU were seemingly created to purposefully mock believers? Faeries are different in that regard, as are ghosts, space aliens, etc. If it is offensive simply because an analogy is being made between God and a fictional character, then there is really not much that can be done. Because one of the main points of making that anaogy in the first place is to show that we see your God as a fictional character. If our seeing your God that way is offensive, then there is really no way to dampen that.

One of the reasons which may lead us to think that atheists do actually in some way or another have a faith deep down inside is tht we can't find any possible reason as to why they claim that they are only interested in religion just to broaden their perspective of the world of theists. I have a question to ask you and really and this time answer me honestly. Ever since you found out that Santa Claus was a popular cultural lie that parents tell their children about before Christmas, and after you've fully understood how he can't possibly exist even if you wanted him to?. Did you spend one more second pondering and trying to discover why other kids still believe him to be true? I highly doubt that. Because simply you grew out of it. It was just a phase and you were more than convinced that one day other children will find out santa clas is not real.

Personally, I never believed Santa was real. I grew up thinking Santa was a fun character like the Easter Bunny or Leprechauns at the end of Rainbows with pots of Gold. It never dawned on me that other children may actually believe Santa really exists until I was much older. I felt the same way about God. I grew up in a Christian society and I remember going to church as a child and hearing stories about Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, Job and the whale, etc. They sounded no more real to me than other children's stories like Hanzel and Gretle, Jack and the Beanstock, or the Cat in the Hat.

I saw God and Jesus as something to take a bit more seriously, but I always say it as a cultural thing, something people pretend is real, not something they actually believe. I thought people went to church for comfort and community, and gave prayers for peace of mind in some sort of therepeutic sense, knowing the whole while that there is no actual God hearing them. I thought it was like writing something down on paper, like keeping a diary, etc. I was the opposite of theists who don't believe atheists exist. I was an atheist who didn't believe theists actually existed.

Only much later did I realize that people ACTUALLY do believe this stuff. And that some actually believe it LITERALLY. I did a double take when I realized that. I found it shocking and hard to believe, and absolutely fascinating.

Now, why do I find it more fascinating than young children who may actually believe in Santa? For a number of reasons. First, we are talking about fully developed, intelligent adults believing in God rather than young children still developing their minds and prone to fantasy. Second, religion permeates society at a much higher level. Missionaries don't go around pushing Santa. People don't go to war or kill each other over Santa belief. People don't form deep personal moral positions on things like abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc based on Santa either. People don't base their entire lives, personal identities, circles of friends, etc around believing in Santa.

Also, Santa doesn't care if you believe in him, only that you are good. And Santa will not send you to hell and torture you forever if you do something he doesn't like. He'll just give you a lump of coal. So it isn't nearly as concerning as some people's visions of God are.

Especially that before a period of time it was fairly common that an atheist whom denounced his/her faith would refer to have been a former follower of any particular faith when they were younger but then suddenly lost their faith and now they switched arguements in which firmly saying 'No, despite the fact that some of us were brought up in religous house holds, we can't remember a time at which we ever actaully had any faith to begin with. We always lacked that faith in God other believers around us seemed to have'.

I personally was never a believer (though I still pretend to make my mom happy), but if you would like me to I can refer you to many atheists who were. I even know some who are former ministers of fundamentalist christian churches. I don't know many ex-muslims who are atheists personally but I do know of them.

Which also brings up the arguement that 'there are no atheists in foxholes' is what based the foundation that an atheist was a believer but lost his her faith because of their distrust in God or failure to observe patience. I know you didn't ask for such a lengthy reply but I thought if would give a broader perspective of why we actually aren't projecting but rather predicting.

"there are no atheists in foxholes" is the argument that atheists who fear for their lives will turn to God. This is of course not always true, but it does happen sometimes. I don't think it should surprise anyone that it happens. Desperate people will take desperate measures, including irrational measures, grasping at straws. It isn't just Gods that desperate people will turn to. They will also turn to psychics, mediums, spirit healing, and all sorts of other things they would otherwise have seen as irrational.

As for becoming an atheist because of distrusting God, that makes no sense to me. If you hate God or don't trust God or turn against God, you by necessity believe in God. I could picture somebody wanting to believe in God and losing patience waiting for some evidence that he exists and calling that "losing patience with God" I suppose.

[Abu Loren]

1,647 views
123 replies
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Way to go Mr. Atheist!

[AabiruSabeel]

I don't have time to read the whole thread but I still do not have any convincing evidence to believe in the existence of any atheists.

I live in a Muslim populated city and I haven't come across any atheist walking on the road here.

I simply do not have any scientifically verifiable evidence to believe in an atheist. Who knows who created this thread? I don't believe it was created by an atheist. I just know that it was created by a username Pygoscelis, whoever he/she is. Sure, he claims he is an atheist, but how can I verify his claim? I have not seen him persoanlly. I have never felt his presence. Then how can I say he exists?

The internet is full of lies and we daily see many unscientific rumors being posted around. I cannot trust anyone posting on the internet and claiming that he is an atheist. Let him give a factual proof of his existence.

He has neither sent any representative to the Islamic Board staff to prove his existence. Maybe there is an intelligent bot behind his username who is typing all these replies, who knows?

[Berries'forest]

[quote=Pygoscelis;1574509] Only much later did I realize that people ACTUALLY do believe this stuff. And that some actually believe it LITERALLY. I did a double take when I realized that. I found it shocking and hard to believe, and absolutely fascinating.
Now, why do I find it more fascinating than young children who may actually believe in Santa? For a number of reasons. First, we are talking about fully developed, intelligent adults believing in God rather than young children still developing their minds and prone to fantasy. Second, religion permeates society at a much higher level. Missionaries don't go around pushing Santa. People don't go to war or kill each other over Santa belief. People don't form deep personal moral positions on things like abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc based on Santa either. People don't base their entire lives, personal identities, circles of friends, etc around believing in Santa.
Also, Santa belief is less alarming than God belief because Santa doesn't care if you believe in him, only that you are good. And Santa will not send you to hell and torture you forever if you do something he doesn't like. He'll just give you a lump of coal.[/quote]

Isn't that a good enough reason for atheists to stop making comparisons of God to fictional characters. We don't pretend to believe in religion and God our whole lives revlove around it. This is why many theists complain when that parallel is made. You said this is the way you view them but why not actually look at it from their perspective and not yours- it's real very real. The offence derives from both sides knowing they are fully 'intelligent' well at least we can say grown adults so when one side insists on downgrading the arguement to faeries and other fictional characters it would imply that they are ridiculing our logic. I mean there are much more plausible arguements that can be made without reffering to fictional characters and does render further discussion.

I personally was never a believer (though I still pretend to make my mom happy), but if you would like me to I can refer you to many atheists who were. I even know some who are former ministers of fundamentalist christian churches. I don't know many ex-muslims who are atheists personally but I do know of them.

Precisley, if it was that a non-issue in account then you still wouldn't have had to pretend to still be a christian infront of your to please her. Your next point indicates exactly why we do assume that they might be just 'deviant deniers' of God becauseof their background and we also inherently assume that they will even maybe unwillingly or unintentionally recognize a superior being especially when afflicted.

"there are no atheists in foxholes" is the argument that atheists who fear for their lives will turn to God. This is of course not always true, but it does happen sometimes. I don't think it should surprise anyone that it happens

Actually I think the arguement goes both ways. I think that in both cases they're still not atheists in the context of them not believing that God exists. An atheist in foxholes is one who denounces their faith because of confusion and being puzzled by what happened. They become atheists because they believe the world hs no order and most likely short after become nhlisits. The other atheists in fox holes is not really an atheist by which if we redefined the theistic term of God as in a divine idol; it's matter of perspective really. Also it's not that surprising given that we already predict for it to happen. Times of desperation are truly the critically defining moments of one's life. Especially that after the calamity has passed by and then the ex-atheist becomes an atheists again because they feel they don't need that anymore. If one is certain there can't possibly be a God then why do they delibaretly switch position back and forth.

It isn't just Gods that desperate people will turn to. They will also turn to psychics, mediums, spirit healing, and all sorts of other things they would otherwise have seen as irrational.

That certainly would make a more plausible arguement than FSMs and faeries. But it still not relevant. If some one had no faith in specifcally dieties and supernatural forces to begin with they shouldn't be troubled by requesting for other paranormal mediums since they paint them all with the same brush.

As for becoming an atheist because of distrusting God, that makes no sense to me. If you hate God or don't trust God or turn against God, you by necessity believe in God. I could picture somebody wanting to believe in God and losing patience waiting for some evidence that he exists and calling that "losing patience with God" I suppose.

Oh I didn't mean that. I meant the distrust that comes along with the skepticism of His will and commandments. Most of their questions go like:' if God was truly this then why did He do that?!' and similar ones. To be frank and honest I think even that is not what it really is to be. I think atheism has a big unresloved issue with that of authoriatianism I believ the main problem is that they don't 'reject' God but they can't or don't want to feel 'repressed' under a common regulating authority it deprives them of their 'freedom' to live their life and do what they want. This is why there's not only a counter arguemnt made fo every theistic apeal but also with it's morality issues associated with it as well. Though there might be some exceptions like your inclination toward the ban on usury transactions.

[IAmZamzam]

Even blocking someone isn't enough sometimes...

I will say this much, even though it's a bit off topic: the only reason people see the existence of psychic powers as "irrational" is because people are also, by and large, too irrational to allow the oodles and oodles and oodles and oodles of statistical proof for their existence to become honestly accepted public knowledge. Scientists are human beings, even collectively, and as prone to stodgy refusal to allow for radical-sounding paradigm shifts as anyone. Even though these abilities may well not involve anything supernatural. The website skepticalinvestigations.org has lots of articles detailing the matter with tons and tons of proof.

[Pygoscelis]

[QUOTE=Berries'forest;1574518]

You said this is the way you view them but why not actually look at it from their perspective and not yours- it's real very real. The offence derives from both sides knowing they are fully 'intelligent' well at least we can say grown adults so when one side insists on downgrading the arguement to faeries and other fictional characters it would imply that they are ridiculing our logic.

I suspect a big part of the creation and use of the FSM and IPU is intentional satire and ridicule. When religious people behave badly and speak rudely to atheists, sometimes atheists want to mock them and speak rudely right back. I prefer not to, which is why I did not bring FSM or IPU into the conversation.

Faeries and ghosts are another matter. You may see them as imaginary creatures, but there are people today who believe strongly in ghosts, and there have been people in history who believed strongly in faeries. These concepts were not invented to mock religion. Neither was Russel's teapot or my numerology example (also something people believe in).

Precisley, if it was that a non-issue in account then you still wouldn't have had to pretend to still be a christian infront of your to please her.
Your next point indicates exactly why we do assume that they might be just 'deviant deniers' of God becauseof their background and we also inherently assume that they will even maybe unwillingly or unintentionally recognize a superior being especially when afflicted.

I'm not entirely clear on what you are saying here. You seem to be making multiple points and mixing them together?

Actually I think the arguement goes both ways. I think that in both cases they're still not atheists in the context of them not believing that God exists. An atheist in foxholes is one who denounces their faith because of confusion and being puzzled by what happened. They become atheists because they believe the world hs no order and most likely short after become nhlisits.

Oh ok I see what you mean. Yes, I think that happens sometimes. Expecting God to help you in troubled times and he doesn't, so you lose faith. Yes?

I don't think that happens very often, but I'd agree it probably does happen sometimes. Most atheists I know who used to be believers lost faith in a less dramatic fashion, slowly over time.

If one is certain there can't possibly be a God then why do they delibaretly switch position back and forth.

I don't know why they would do this. And I have to take your word for it that they do this, because I have yet to meet any who have told me that happened to them.

But it still not relevant. If some one had no faith in specifcally dieties and supernatural forces to begin with they shouldn't be troubled by requesting for other paranormal mediums since they paint them all with the same brush.

My point is that they turn to things they'd otherwise consider irrational, because they are desperate. They also may simply go into denial and say everything is ok when it is not.

Oh I didn't mean that. I meant the distrust that comes along with the skepticism of His will and commandments. Most of their questions go like:' if God was truly this then why did He do that?!' and similar ones. To be frank and honest I think even that is not what it really is to be. I think atheism has a big unresloved issue with that of authoriatianism I believ the main problem is that they don't 'reject' God but they can't or don't want to feel 'repressed' under a common regulating authority it deprives them of their 'freedom' to live their life and do what they want. This is why there's not only a counter arguemnt made fo every theistic apeal but also with it's morality issues associated with it as well. Though there might be some exceptions like your inclination toward the ban on usury transactions.

I see your point here, and I agree with you that most atheists I know are less authoritarian than most theists I know, but not always. I do know some very liberal hippy type religious people who are very anti-authoritarian and I know some military patriotic type atheists who are very authoritarian.

[Pygoscelis]

I was talking with a friend of mine about this today this is her theory on why it happens:

People want to believe that God is good and just. They are then told that he punishes infidels and sends them to hell and tortures them. They can see that it would be unjust, monstrous even, to punish and torture good people who just don't believe. So they need to believe that these people are either not good people or that they do not just not believe. They have to believe that these people knew God existed, knew what he wanted, and that they turned against him.

That makes a lot of sense to me.

Of course not all religious people believe in punishment and hell and brimstone afterlives for non-believers. It would be interesting to see if these religious people are more often the ones that recognize and accept that there are true non-believers.

[Berries'forest]

I'm not entirely clear on what you are saying here. You seem to be making multiple points and mixing them together?

If it seemed mixed up it's because you are connecting them together. You said you pretend to be a believer infront of your mom, right?. Well if the faith wasn't all that significant you wouldn't have had to pretend to be a believer, you'd just tell her that you're an atheist. You don't pretend to believe in faeries do you? no.So if the issue of God not existing is that clear to you why would you pretend to be a believer infront of her. Would you also pretend to believe in Santa Claus infront of your children so they don't get hurt?.

I don't know why they would do this. And I have to take your word for it that they do this, because I have yet to meet any who have told me that happened to them.

Yeah they do. Some of them can't stand firmly on what they claim. They believe then disbelieve then believe again then alter their beliefs with more atheistic ones, the ones around me do that all the time.

I do know some very liberal hippy type religious people who are very anti-authoritarian and I know some military patriotic type atheists who are very authoritarian.

I strongly disagree. You can't be religious and anti-authoritarian at the same time. I'm talking in religious context here, those people would be just liberal 'muslims' and most of the time the choose and pick which parts of religion suits their preferances.

[White Rose]

It isn't a bad thing to admit you don't know what you don't know. It doesn't mean you should make up answers, or call it "Magick" or call it "God did it".

I don't know but the more I delve deeper into science, the more I find the things too perfect to happen on their own.

[Berries'forest]

But your friend may actaully be incorrect. I don't think it ever comes in the terms of good and bad. If you're an atheist you'd be considered bad anyway regardless of what you actaully do. She really narrowed things in perspective. We barely ever care as to why an atheist doesn't believe God exists. She implies that we have to comfort our failure in figuring out why someone would be an atheist. We don't infact it's not like that at all. When we say atheists don't exist we mean it in as a whole in the sense that they're will be one day and it is probably judgement day when these atheist will believe regardless of wether they currently don't believe or not. Hey and why is that arguement used only for atheists anyway, we could just as likely ask but there are good jews, chritsians and bhudists...etc out there, are they also going to be punished by God? and we don't just deny their existance because we can't comprehend their fate.And wait a moment; does me believing that God punishing someone for not belieivng entail that they either have to be secret believers or they do believe but they just don't know it yet also apply that God would be too cruel to do such a thing; hey it's a loaded question howcome I didn't figure. Seriously though; Abu taleb the uncle of the Prophet was indeed a disbeliever but also a good person , I have no authority to declare what his ultimate fate is but I do have trust in God that He will judge all affairs with justice.

[AabiruSabeel]

The absence of any reply to my post further proves my point that atheists do not exist. They don't answer me when I try to speak with them, then how can I believe in their existence?




Can you see any parallels in my arguments and the arguments that atheists make in denying the existence of Allah?

[Pygoscelis]

If it seemed mixed up it's because you are connecting them together. You said you pretend to be a believer infront of your mom, right?. Well if the faith wasn't all that significant you wouldn't have had to pretend to be a believer, you'd just tell her that you're an atheist.

Sure, yes, because her belief includes a provision that if I don't believe what she does I am supposed to go to hell. I'd rather she not worry for me like that, so I lie to her and tel I her I believe.

Would you also pretend to believe in Santa Claus infront of your children so they don't get hurt?

I don't expect my children will believe Santa is real. But if I came across a child who did believe in a literal Santa would I play along? Yes, I probably would.

I strongly disagree. You can't be religious and anti-authoritarian at the same time.

I think you can be a theist and be anti-authoritarian. Muslims, no. But hippy pantheist Gaia free spirit types come to mind. I do see your point though. If you define religion as adhering to and following and obeying a God then you'd pretty much have to be authoritarian.

[Pygoscelis]

The absence of any reply to my post further proves my point that atheists do not exist. They don't answer me when I try to speak with them, then how can I believe in their existence?

I can take it a bit further for you.

Perhaps the entire forum is a computer simulation and you are the only actual human being that posts here.

Perhaps we are all in the Matrix and none of your real life is actually real.

Perhaps you are a dolphin dreaming you are living a human life.

Perhaps you do not exist.

There are a lot of possibilities.

[GuestFellow]

Science tries, but it is fallible and incomplete, and will likely always be so.

It isn't a bad thing to admit you don't know what you don't know. It doesn't mean you should make up answers, or call it "Magick" or call it "God did it".

I didn't know at first either when I was agnostic. From doing research and reading I really believe God created this world. The process I'm not aware of it, but I do believe there is a creator.

If you don't know how this world was created then that's fine...

[GuestFellow]

Then how can I say he exists?

:wa:

He just created a topic. Therefore he exists. SIMPLE!

[IAmZamzam]

Can you see any parallels in my arguments and the arguments that atheists make in denying the existence of Allah?

We get your drift. It's slightly clever I suppose.

Since I can no longer see what Pygoscelis is saying let me offer a more specific link to that site preemptively. This touches--just barely--on that whole "fallibility of the scientific community and faultiness of common skeptical arguments" issue, although these waters run much, much, much, MUCH deeper. Let it count as a very brief introduction, for want a better one off the top of my head.

[AabiruSabeel]

Perhaps the entire forum is a computer simulation and you are the only actual human being that posts here.

Perhaps we are all in the Matrix and none of your real life is actually real.

Perhaps you are a dolphin dreaming you are living a human life.

Perhaps you do not exist.

There are a lot of possibilities.

Isn't that as absurd as thinking that the whole system of universe runs on its own?

[IAmZamzam]

"Perhaps you do not exist"???

[Pygoscelis]

Isn't that as absurd as thinking that the whole system of universe runs on its own?

You are taking this way off topic, but no, I think that is far more absurd than thinking that either the whole system of the universe runs "on its own" or that some intelligent and magical God being designed it. But you were making statements we can't disprove getting more and more absurd, so I just joined in and continued the trend. Perhaps we can get back on topic?

Do you really think atheists don't exist? Even when I tell you I am one? Do you really think I am lying about that or that I don't exist and am a computer program or whatever? When I tell you I am Canadian do you think I am faking my ISP? When I tell you I am male do you think I am probably actually female? Or is there something special about me saying I am atheist that makes you doubt that and not other things I say?

[Pygoscelis]

Even blocking someone isn't enough sometimes...

Not when you then go on to obsess over them, quote them, and keep sniping at them in a thread they created and never invited you to, no it really isn't.

[AabiruSabeel]

Do you really think atheists don't exist? Even when I tell you I am one? Do you really think I am lying about that or that I don't exist and am a computer program or whatever? When I tell you I am Canadian do you think I am faking my ISP? When I tell you I am male do you think I am probably actually female? Or is there something special about me saying I am atheist that makes you doubt that and not other things I say?

Do you really think God doesn't exist? Even when He tells you in His Holy Book? Do you really think He is lying about Himself or that He does not exist and there is no God who designed everything in its perfect order or whatever? When He Himself tells you that He is the One and Only God, do you think He is still faking His existence?


To answer your questions, no, I know atheists exist and their arguments are as absurd as a tree creating a boat from its own trunk.

[Scimitar]

I can take it a bit further for you.

Perhaps the entire forum is a computer simulation and you are the only actual human being that posts here.

Perhaps we are all in the Matrix and none of your real life is actually real.

Perhaps you are a dolphin dreaming you are living a human life.

Perhaps you do not exist.

There are a lot of possibilities.

Come on fella, this is getting a little too desperate. I can see your will caving, slowly... let me known when you are ready to talk ;) 'll arrange for two witnesses :D

(i'm kidding bro - well not entirely)

Scimi

[GuestFellow]

Do you really think God doesn't exist? Even when He tells you in His Holy Book? Do you really think He is lying about Himself or that He does not exist and there is no God who designed everything in its perfect order or whatever? When He Himself tells you that He is the One and Only God, do you think He is still faking His existence?

To answer your questions, no, I know atheists exist and their arguments are as absurd as a tree creating a boat from its own trunk.

I rather not speak on behalf of him but I really think members need to sit back and try to understand where atheists are coming from.

If someone came to you with a book and claiming its the word of God would you believe it immediately? How do know that the book contains God's word? Is it not possible someone might have written the book?

Atheists do have logical views. I don't agree with them, but I can see where they are coming from.

[Scimitar]

I agree with you partly on this bro, but I will add that if one is sincere in learning about Islam, than one must use the correct method (authenticated by scholars of Islam) in order to study it. One thing we cannot do is weigh shariah with aql. Hence, methodology is required.

This is something I've found that members here have largely failed to address when debating with non Muslims who are denying the truth of the Quran.

If I want to learn how to knit wooly jumpers, I don't go to a farm to shear sheep... I go to a person who can teach me how to knit :) see?

With sites such as answering Islam and answering Christianity (both owned by the same atheist with an agenda by the way) we have to understand that methodology is really out of the window when dealing with those who take their info from misinformation sites - it would serve us well to point out the flaws in their method and to challenge them to make the same points after utilising the correct methodology - it would be neigh enough impossible :D

Scimi

[AabiruSabeel]

If someone came to you with a book and claiming its the word of God would you believe it immediately? How do know that the book contains God's word? Is it not possible someone might have written the book?

That's why I said at the beginning of my first post on this thread that I have not read this whole thread before coming to my false conclusion, similar to how an atheist may not read the Qur'an with proper understanding and still claim that he does not believe that the Qur'an is from Allah. The answer is, read and reflect on the words of Allah and you will not need anyone else to tell you that it is indeed the words of Allah.

[Pygoscelis]

Come on fella, this is getting a little too desperate. I can see your will caving, slowly... let me known when you are ready to talk ;) 'll arrange for two witnesses :D

(i'm kidding bro - well not entirely)

Scimi

Um..... Did you just ask me to marry you?

[Pygoscelis]

Do you really think God doesn't exist? Even when He tells you in His Holy Book? Do you really think He is lying about Himself or that He does not exist and there is no God who designed everything in its perfect order or whatever? When He Himself tells you that He is the One and Only God, do you think He is still faking His existence?

He himself hasn't told me anything. You and a few other people calling themselves Muslims have. He hasn't shown up at all. I see no reason to believe that he exists or has anything to do with this Book you call Holy and want to associate with him.

The answer is, read and reflect on the words of Allah and you will not need anyone else to tell you that it is indeed the words of Allah.

If that were true then anybody who read the Quran would be a Muslim. You will quibble and say they have to have a "proper understanding" and "truly reflect" and that anybody who didn't convert didn't do that... but... ya... ok then, infinitely flexible goalposts. Some Christians have told me the exact same thing about their Bible and their Jesus. They've probably said it to you too. Did it convince you? Me neither.

That is getting us off topic though.

[GuestFellow]

Um..... Did you just ask me to marry you?

Well you are very good looking fellow.

[Scimitar]

Um..... Did you just ask me to marry you?

:D very clever... and funny too hehe. No. You know what I was getting at, but playing coy, works too :D hehehe

Stay strong bro Pygo :)

Scimi

[IAmZamzam]

Do you really think God doesn't exist? Even when He tells you in His Holy Book? Do you really think He is lying about Himself

Sites such as answering Islam and answering Christianity (both owned by the same atheist with an agenda by the way)

Atheists do have logical views

I don’t know which of these three arguments I find the most questionable. The first is begging the question, the second is a conspiracy theory with no evidence offered to back it up, and the third is, if not patently absurd, then at least outside of my own experience.

[GuestFellow]

I don’t know which of these three arguments I find the most questionable. The first is begging the question, the second is a conspiracy theory with no evidence offered to back it up, and the third is, if not patently absurd, then at least outside of my own experience.

By logical I just mean it makes sense to a certain extent? You cannot say that "atheists are completely absurd and stupid" because I don't agree with them?

People disagreements and disagreements are not necessarily absurd.

[Scimitar]

I don’t know which of these three arguments I find the most questionable. The first is begging the question, the second is a conspiracy theory with no evidence offered to back it up, and the third is, if not patently absurd, then at least outside of my own experience.

regardng the theory, you can check it yourself, if you have time :) we exposed the sites on vigilant citizen before it got shut down. You may be able to find a cached version on google...

for the record, conspiracy theories are for suckers... facts however? Do the research, don't dismiss things so easily bro. Anyone can have an opinion. But to back it with substantiated evidence lends it more credence :)

Scimi

[IAmZamzam]

You cannot say that "atheists are completely absurd and stupid" because I don't agree with them?

Did I ever say that?

Brother Scimitar: all I did was ask for the evidence. A direct link would help.

[piXie]

Yes, Athiests do Exist

How? :confused:

[Scimitar]

Did I ever say that?

Brother Scimitar: all I did was ask for the evidence. A direct link would help.

Sorry bro, just did a search and even google cache is not showing it for some reason. The thread was a hit though, on vigilantcitizen.com forums - which are no longer there anymore. Shame really. That thread alone forced the trolls to revise their MO :D some left, never to return.

Scimi

[IAmZamzam]

Here's the real question:

What does it really matter whether or not atheists exist?

[Pygoscelis]

How? :confused:

Well... when a mommy and daddy love each other very very much.....

[IAmZamzam]

I don't know if you were talking to me or not, Pygoscelis, but let me put it this way. Try to focus on making people understand the situation better--what you take to be the truth about the whole world--and not your own self. Whether God exists is what's important here. Don't get your priorities out of whack. Everyone in the world feels like nobody else "gets" them. Sorry but that's life.

[Pygoscelis]

IamZamzam is a real performance artist. He entered a thread I made, posted very rudely, got frustrated I didn't agree with him, put me on ignore, flaunted putting me on ignore, quoted me, and now addresses me.

What am I to make of that?

Whether God exists is what's important here.

No, that is not what this thread is about.

[Iceee]

So what is this thread about?

In a thread that was started here (so I posted in it) but has since been moved to a Muslim fellowship (advice and support) area of the board (where I won't intrude), YusufNoor made this interesting post.



This is not the first time I have seen religious people flatly stating that non-believers don't exist. It perplexes me, because here I am, a non-believer. I am an atheist. Telling yourself I believe in God and just hate him may help you rationalize things for yourself, but I know what I think and what I believe, and what I don't believe. Telling me I believe something I don't and that I feel something I don't is just a weird thing to do.

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts. Hating something that you don't believe in makes no sense.

When you see outspoken and anti-religious atheists (which is not the majority of atheists) speak against religions, often with disgust and hatred, you are not seeing them hate the Gods. You are seeing them hate the belief systems and the actions of the followers. It isn't the same thing. The closest you will get to them actually hating the Gods would be them judging the Gods as literary characters, like they would Robin Hood or Darth Vader.

Personally, since I was asked, no, I am not such an atheist that is disgusted by people worshiping pretend Gods. I see some therepeutic use to it and I see how it has comforted and given some extra sense of purpose and belonging to people I love. I would never want to take somebody's religion away from them if it offers them this and if they don't go crazy with it and don't harm anybody with it.

I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.

[Pygoscelis]

So what is this thread about?

See the thread title too. It is about the fact that atheists do indeed exist despite the frequent statements from theists here stating or implying they don't. It is also an attempt to understand why this confusion is so prevalent.

I think my friend's theory is better than the one in the video, and Berries also had some interesting ideas.

If you can scan past Zamzam's melt down, I think we have had a prerty good discussion here.

[glo]

I am an atheist.

At the risk of opening this can of worms AGAIN, Pygo, can you explain what makes you think of yourself as an atheist, rather than what Yusuf calls a radical agnostic?

Because I think I can kind of see where he is coming from.

Since none of us KNOW with absolute certainty whether God does exist or not, are we not all agnostic in some way?

If as an atheist you say you don't believe that God exists, but you have no absolute proof of it - does that not mean you have to call yourself an agnostic?

In the same way, of course, believers do not have absolute proof about God's existence ... so perhaps we all ALL agnostics? :D

[Scimitar]

Pygo is an atheist... an atheist by classic definition can be found in many dictionaries... and seems to suit him well.

Scimi

[IbnAbdulHakim]

atheists are those who have interpreted events in life differently to us and made decisions based on those interpretations till their conclusion (though we hope it is not a final one) became the disbelief in a Creator.

For example if I see a man feel better with full understanding of biology, immune system etc I will still believe that God willed his immune system and any other organism involved in the recovery whereas he refuses to believe anything further.

Same for accidents/crashes/common every day occurrences and everything else in life. denial after denial leads to atheism. Of course it would.

Allah is not unjust - atheists wrong themselves countless times before the darkness of disbelief

[Pygoscelis]

If as an atheist you say you don't believe that God exists, but you have no absolute proof of it - does that not mean you have to call yourself an agnostic?

In the same way, of course, believers do not have absolute proof about God's existence ... so perhaps we all ALL agnostics? :D

Yes... that pretty much covers it. If we use the word "agnostic" that way then I think any sane person is an agnostic, which renders the term of little use.

This is why I prefer the other common definition for "agnostic", being a person who believes it is not possible to know or find evidence for if there are Gods or not.

I also prefer the other common definition of "atheist", being a person who lacks belief in a God, and that is what I am.

[Scimitar]

You're still my brother in humanity bro Pygo.

:)

Scimi

[Pygoscelis]

You're still my brother in humanity bro Pygo.

:)

Scimi

Sweet :) You are mine as well.

You are making me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

But no, I still won't marry you.

[glo]

You're still my brother in humanity bro Pygo.

:)

You are my brother in humanity too, Pygo.
And no, I won't marry you either! ;D

[IAmZamzam]

atheists are those who have interpreted events in life differently to us and made decisions based on those interpretations till their conclusion (though we hope it is not a final one) became the disbelief in a Creator.

For example if I see a man feel better with full understanding of biology, immune system etc I will still believe that God willed his immune system and any other organism involved in the recovery whereas he refuses to believe anything further.

Same for accidents/crashes/common every day occurrences and everything else in life. denial after denial leads to atheism. Of course it would.

Allah is not unjust - atheists wrong themselves countless times before the darkness of disbelief

I see that your emoticon says "worried". Perhaps you should make your words better match your emotions. This doesn't sound like worry to me. It sounds like hatefulness and dismissal. It's likelier to make them turn further away, make them feel like they have more of an excuse to hate us, and thus give you more cause for worry than you had before.

[Scimitar]

Sweet :) You are mine as well.

You are making me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

But no, I still won't marry you.

:D I knew that was coming :D can i atleast get a *brohug* ? :)

anyway,

I wonder if you knew about the little experiment Sir Isaac Newton conducted in order to teach his friend how his belief in no God was uhm, for lack of a better expression, illogical.



:) Scimi

[IAmZamzam]

Scimitar, as magnificent a story as that is, do you really think it’s going to have any effect whatsoever on anyone? I’ve been down this road too many times before. What happens is always the same. The atheist always says something like, “Pssh, that’s just that ‘obsolete’ old watchmaker analogy of Paley’s that’s been ‘refuted ages ago’ (i.e. “People long before me have been expressing disagreement with you’).” Why are we even trying anymore? What’s the point?

[Scimitar]

Scimitar, as magnificent a story as that is,

You think so too? :) :) pleased.

do you really think it’s going to have any effect whatsoever on anyone?

I'm an optimist, and realistic one at that. I never give up. If I find something not going the way i planned, I walk back and find another way... there are many ways to skin a cat.

been down this road too many times before. What happens is always the same. The atheist always says something like, “Pssh, that’s just that ‘obsolete’ old watchmaker analogy of Paley’s that’s been ‘refuted ages ago’ (i.e. “People long before me have been expressing disagreement with you’).” Why are we even trying anymore? What’s the point?

I have hope for him. He is not an evil intended person. he's been a member here for 9 years.... he likes us. That's obvious to me... I like him, he's a reasonable sort.

And you can reason with reasonable people.

I'd like him to make his points, not you to make his points for him bro Zamzam. if you've failed in this regard in your past efforts, I'd appreciate if you just watched from the sidelines, rather than imagine that it will always be the same with others, as it was with you.

Scimi

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I see that your emoticon says "worried". Perhaps you should make your words better match your emotions. This doesn't sound like worry to me. It sounds like hatefulness and dismissal. It's likelier to make them turn further away, make them feel like they have more of an excuse to hate us, and thus give you more cause for worry than you had before.

i have had real life discussions with atheist colleagues who in their words love me in this same manner.

they didnt see hate and disgust. they know i only express sincere views and i hopemthis forum members can look past the cold text and see the outreach i offer

[IAmZamzam]

And you can reason with reasonable people

Can you indeed?? I'm no longer as sure as I used to be. I'm getting less and less confident, the more time goes by, that you can reason with humans.

However, watching from the sidelines has a certain amount of value to it. And fun.

i have had real life discussions with atheist colleagues who in their words love me in this same manner.

they didnt see hate and disgust. they know i only express sincere views and i hopemthis forum members can look past the cold text and see the outreach i offer

I hope they do too.

[Pygoscelis]

they didnt see hate and disgust. they know i only express sincere views and i hopemthis forum members can look past the cold text and see the outreach i offer

You don't come across as hateful or aggressive to me at all. I hope I don't come across as hateful to you either. We both have views that the other may disagree with, dislike, or even find objectionable, but that doesn't make us rude or insincere. We can have complete polar opposite views and still have polite and interesting conversation, as you are and Scimitar and glo and Berries and MustafaMC and GuestFellow and others have all done with me in this thread. It is actually so nice to see that on this forum.

Zamzam seems to want to be on the attack and since he put me on ignore he's now turned on his fellow muslims lol

[Pygoscelis]

I have hope for him. He is not an evil intended person. he's been a member here for 9 years.... he likes us. That's obvious to me... I like him, he's a reasonable sort.

Zamzam is correct that you are probably never going to convert me to Islam. And I have no intent, interest, or expectation of converting anybody away from Islam. That isn't why I am here. I would prefer you guys saw my presence on this forum not so much as a chance to convert somebody, which will likely only end in frustration, but as a chance to discuss and interchange ideas from our differing perspectives. That's why I came here.

I have learned a lot about Islam since I came to this forum with SnakeLegs (I miss SnakeLegs) so long ago, and I have made some good friends along the way. Many of you here are my go to people when I experience something or see a news story that somehow involves Islam and I want the opinions and views of actual muslims, which are not that common or outspoken where I live.

PS - I haven't watched the video you posted yet, as I am out and only have my phone to read all this on.

[Scimitar]

Can you indeed?? I'm no longer as sure as I used to be. I'm getting less and less confident, the more time goes by, that you can reason with humans.

However, watching from the sidelines has a certain amount of value to it. And fun.

I hope they do too.

:) I understand. Sometimes even I lose steam... and take breaks away :) we're only human. But I don't like to give up. So I keep plodding on. Hitting brick walls. Or facepalming. I bet that's fun watching form the sidelines :D

Zamzam is correct that you are probably never going to convert me to Islam. And I have no intent, interest, or expectation of converting anybody away from Islam. That isn't why I am here. I would prefer you guys saw my presence on this forum not so much as a chance to convert somebody, but as a chance to discuss and interchange ideas from our differing perspectives. That's why I came here.

I have learned a lot about Islam since I came to this forum with SnakeLegs (I miss SnakeLegs) so long ago, and I have made some good friends along the way. Many of you here are my go to people when I experience something or see a news story that somehow involves Islam and I want the opinions and views of actual muslims, which are not that common or outspoken where I live.

Yeah it's sad about snakelegs. I read about her months back, she seemed really sweet. May Allah accept her shahadah, Ameen.

Well, at any rate, conversion or no, I'm pleased you are here bro Pygo. :)

I highlighted a particular part of your text. I like this from you. We get to learn more about eachother this way :)

I don't think I've tried to convert you though...just marry you :D NAAAAAT

Scimi

[glo]

I don't think I've tried to convert you though...just marry you NAAAAAT

Would Pygo not have to convert before he could marry you? :shade:

A bit sad to think about Snakelegs. She became a good friend ... imsad

[GuestFellow]

Since when snakes have legs. LOL

[Scimitar]

Would Pygo not have to convert before he could marry you?

he knows that's the plan, which is why he refused me :D

Scimi

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Zamzam is correct that you are probably never going to convert me to Islam. And I have no intent, interest, or expectation of converting anybody away from Islam. That isn't why I am here. I would prefer you guys saw my presence on this forum not so much as a chance to convert somebody, which will likely only end in frustration, but as a chance to discuss and interchange ideas from our differing perspectives. That's why I came here.

I have learned a lot about Islam since I came to this forum with SnakeLegs (I miss SnakeLegs) so long ago, and I have made some good friends along the way. Many of you here are my go to people when I experience something or see a news story that somehow involves Islam and I want the opinions and views of actual muslims, which are not that common or outspoken where I live.

PS - I haven't watched the video you posted yet, as I am out and only have my phone to read all this on.

you know there was an atheist on this forum i learned a huge amount from regarding different views and values. heitou or something?

the way i see it Allaah created evryone so its important to understand each other so as to co-exist.

i will consider a "go-to" as well

[glo]

Since when snakes have legs. LOL

This one did. Here is her last post and her avatar

[sister herb]

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...-me-peeps.html

imsad

I still remember her...

[sister herb]

[Berries'forest]

Scimi I don't mean to be rudebut you have to stop coming on to him like that. Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam it's not right to joke about it and if you were that serious you should've sent him a private message but this is not suitable to do in public views. I'm not trying to be rude but I thought this needs to be addressed.

[IAmZamzam]

Oh, for heaven's sake, berries! :P

[Berries'forest]

Oh, for heaven's sake, berries! :P

What's wrong now? well, It did seem out of place...

[Scimitar]

Scimi I don't mean to be rudebut you have to stop coming on to him like that. Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam it's not right to joke about it and if you were that serious you should've sent him a private message but this is not suitable to do in public views. I'm not trying to be rude but I thought this needs to be addressed.

I'm afraid you never looked at the previous pages and may have jumped on my back...

I mentioned that I would have two witnesses for him when he's ready - my intent to him was regarding taking shahadah, he knew that but twisted it to "you wanna marry me?" :D

So, I'm playing this game. No homo. I'm engaged.

You should all know that.

Scimi

[Berries'forest]

I did read and when he asked you 'Did you just ask me to marry you?' I wanted to respond no he actually means you becoming a muslim but then it turned into something else and I was confused. I'm sorry if I was harsh. Hopefully no harm done. Congrats on your engagment by the way.

[Scimitar]

Jazak-Allahu kHairan for your congrats, no harm done :) you had a genuine concern, i can see that. :)

Scimi

[Berries'forest]

Since none of us KNOW with absolute certainty whether God does exist or not, are we not all agnostic in some way?
If as an atheist you say you don't believe that God exists, but you have no absolute proof of it - does that not mean you have to call yourself an agnostic?
In the same way, of course, believers do not have absolute proof about God's existence ... so perhaps we all ALL agnostics?

Sister I am surprised you would say something like this. How are we all agnostics for the mere reason of not having 'enough' evidence to convince atheists in particular that God does infact exist. An agnostic is one who doesn't know whether God exists or not but is open to believing in Him an atheist on the other hand simply doesn't bother wether He does or does not exist. It was never about knowing it is about believing and there are some many things you don't know but still exist does that mean because we can't materialisticly prove it exists that we are not sure of it's existance. What makes an agnostic an agnostic is that he/she does not have faith as their priority because they don't know. We are not all agnostic because we can't merely prove God's existance to atheists in specific and not 'knowing' if God exists implies that we doubt His existance which means we don't completely believe in Him. I know I may have sounded rude and harsh when I joined your other thread but I just wanted to openly express with you my opinions afterall you did join this thread to learn the muslim perspective in things like Pygoscelis did.

[Berries'forest]

Definition of Agnostic:

-One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
- One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
-One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

The difference between an atheist and an agnostic is that an atheist does not believe in God/god at all and doesn't not believe that god/God can possibly exist. An agnostic isn't sure about the existance of God/god, but is open to the possibility that god/God exists. An atheist firmly declares that there is no God. The agnostic says there night or night not be a God one can never be sure enough to figure that out. The both tend to be materialist in the philosphical sense the word hold especially when it comes to 'proving God's existance' to both of them. To say that a believer is an agnostic of somehow is pure contradiction but it would be more appropriate to say that an atheist is an agnostic in philsophical terms as well. An agnostic is also popularly defined as a person's spiritual 'blindness'. It doesn't change the fact that in order to 'convince' one of them to believ one has to provide only raw materialistic evidence and noneother. Fortunately though one is less stubborn than the other and might actaully believe the other one wouldn't bother believing anyway even if you provided an eternal's wieght of evidence and proof. We can't be believers and agnostics at the same time, you're either one or the other no in between.

[glo]

We are not all agnostic because we can't merely prove God's existance to atheists in specific and not 'knowing' if God exists implies that we doubt His existance which means we don't completely believe in Him.

I know Berries'forest, I slightly twisted the definition of agnostic.
I don't doubt in God's existance, but I am aware that I cannot bring scientific proof for his existance which my atheist friends might find convincing.

My point was that there is much we do not know about God (including being unable to prove his existance in scientific terms.)
I am painfully aware that there is much I do not know or understand about God - and will not fully understand until the Last Day when I meet him face to face. That's not a problem to me. I am quite comfortable with not fully knowing God. In fact it is the people who claim they know EVERYTHING about God, who sometimes trouble me (I am not talking about anybody here in this forum. BTW) :)

In other words, I am a Christian who has a lot of questions. Does that sound alright to you?

[Berries'forest]

I know Berries'forest, I slightly twisted the definition of agnostic.
I don't doubt in God's existance, but I am aware that I cannot bring scientific proof for his existance which my atheist friends might find convincing.
My point was that there is much we do not know about God (including being unable to prove his existance in scientific terms.)
I am painfully aware that there is much I do not know or understand about God - and will not fully understand until the Last Day when I meet him face to face. That's not a problem to me. I am quite comfortable with not fully knowing God. In fact it is the people who claim they know EVERYTHING about God, who sometimes trouble me (I am not talking about anybody here in this forum. BTW)
In other words, I am a Christian who has a lot of questions. Does that sound alright to you?

Yup, no harm done :). I don't like to pretned I knwo everything about God either and thank you for clarifying your point.

[IAmZamzam]

Okay, really, what is all this talk of "scientific proof of God's existence"? Are we speaking of a nonphysical entity and therefore something on a different wavelength from the empirical or aren't we? Besides, even if it weren't a non-sequitur it wouldn't matter anyway. God would just end up in the same boat as all the scientific proof of psi: a few poor rationalizations here, a bit of mass ignorance from the general public there, a little bit of stodgy refusal to acknowledge the new evidence by textbooks and scientific journals there (none of these three things are unconnected), and voila! Even if scientific proof were inherently possible to think it would have any overall effects on a scientific community that has not been the least bit swayed by the ganzfeld experiments and what not would be pushing it.

It never ceases to amaze me that most of the people who smack their foreheads upon hearing, "There are no transitional fossils," are the very same people who will turn right around thirty seconds later and say, "There is no convincing evidence for psi."

[Scimitar]

Exactly, if GOD was able to be proven scientifically, then that would imply that HE abides in this space time continuum, and that would make HIM a part of HIS own creation, which is an wholly illogical red herring fallacy of a proof the atheists ask for. Stupid science... and these troll atheists always come back with "you don't understand scientific theory" - hypocrites :D I understand alright - you don't understand logic. Foooooools :D

Not you bro Pygo, you're one of the better ones, like my atheist friends who I grew up with IRLe :)

Scimi

[Pygoscelis]

Exactly, if GOD was able to be proven scientifically, then that would imply that HE abides in this space time continuum, and that would make HIM a part of HIS own creation, which is an wholly illogical red herring fallacy of a proof the atheists ask for.

If you agree that we have no evidence for God, and define God so there can be no evidence of God, then do you understand why atheists don't hold any belief that this God exists? We need more than just faith.

Also, these claims of psi ZamZam is making, is that belief from Islam or is that his own thing? I mean beyond God hearing prayers. Do the rest of you believe us mere humans can talk to each other using only our minds? How about dowsing, telekinesis, and alien abductions? This is off topic here, but he keeps bringing it up, and if enough of you believe in this stuff it may be an interesting thread of its own.

[Scimitar]

If you agree that we have no evidence for God, and define God so there can be no evidence of God, then do you understand why atheists don't hold any belief that this God exists? We need more than just faith.

if you mean Scientific proof, then nope - not happening, I agree.

But is scientific proof the only kind of proof available for the human mind to consider? No... and herein you can find some REAL answers.... the problem with atheists is that they believe science is the be all and end all of everything. You know what love is, right? prove that scientifically - you cannot.

How many times you heard people say "God is Love" ? I rest my case :)

Scimi

[sister herb]

We need more than just faith.

I need only the faith. And I was an atheist before. So I should understand quite well what it was...

I can only thank Allah who put some sense to my mind.


:D

[Scimitar]

Yes sister Harb, but your faith was born from conviction :) and that's the beautiful thing. :) No need for science to validate your beliefs - you are that validating factor, a walking talking proof of God! :)

Scimi

[Berries'forest]

Also, these claims of psi ZamZam is making, is that belief from Islam or is that his own thing?

No it's an anology. He said that even if scientific evidence were privided atheists wouldn't take it into account and dismiss it right away.

Do the rest of you believe us mere humans can talk to each other using only our minds?

Ever heard of Telepathy?. It might just happen...

How about dowsing, telekinesis, and alien abductions?

Not untypical for you to be placing them on the same footing bearing that you place God and fictional characters as parallels.

[glo]

I need only the faith. And I was an atheist before. So I should understand quite well what it was...

How did you make that shift from thinking that God does not exist to believing that he does, sister harb? Can you tell me? Did anything happen that changed your mind?

I find it difficult to imagine that somebody who does not believe in God at all (unless you always thought that there was perhaps something out there ... in which case I don't think you were a true atheist) comes to believe in God. I imagine that something quite significant has to take place for that to happen.
Can you share your story? :)

[Pygoscelis]

No it's an anology. He said that even if scientific evidence were privided atheists wouldn't take it into account and dismiss it right away.

I think he means it as more than an analogy. He has made these claims multiple times in the thread now, and even linked to what he thinks is evidence for them. Is this just his thing? Or is there something in Islam that tells you to believe in telepathy and other psi things. Aside from God hearing prayers I mean. I'd like to know. And I would also ask him himself but he so proudly has me on ignore.

[IAmZamzam]

This is why I blocked Pygoscelis. And yet because you guys insist on continuing to quote him I can never really be free of him. I say “scientific evidence”, he reads that as “evidence, period”. And then says, “How about dowsing, telekinesis, and alien abductions?” That is so, so typical. And so, so telling.

But as long as we are on the subject of aliens, here is another quote from Skeptical Investigations:

Pseudoskeptics tend to accept conventional "explanations" for unconventional phenomena very easily, no matter how weak, contrived or far-fetched. A good historical example is the rejection of the crop circle phenomenon. Doug Bower and David Chorley claimed in 1991 that they had created all of the British crop circles since 1978 (all 2000 of them). This was an extraordinary claim of the highest order. Two old men claimed that for over a decade, they have been creating geometrical designs in crops whose complexity defies easy geometrical construction, but they were never able to demonstrate that they can do what they claim they could do. Any true skeptic would have rejected Bower's and Chorley's claim, since "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”. Yet, the organized skeptics endorsed the claims enthusiastically and denounced the whole crop circle phenomenon a proven hoax…

Let us assume a scenario in a hypothetical new science in which there are two pieces of evidence to be discovered, A and B, each equally credible, each one suggesting an obvious, but incorrect explanation (call them (1) and (2)). (1) and (2) are mutually incompatible, and a third, highly non obvious explanation (3) that accounts for both A and B is actually correct. As chance would have it, one of the two pieces of evidence A,B will be discovered first. Let A be that piece of evidence, and further suppose that the scientists working in that hypothetical field all subscribe to the principle of the double standard. After the discovery of A, they will adopt explanation (1) as the accepted theory of their field. At a later time, when B is discovered, it will be dismissed because it contradicts (1), and because A and B are equally credible, but A is ordinary relative to (1) and B is extraordinary. The end result is that our hypothetical science has failed to self-correct. The incorrect explanation (1) has been accepted, and the correct explanation (3) was never found, because B was rejected. I therefore submit that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence is not suitable as a guiding principle for sound scientific research. All evidence, whether it supports accepted theories or not, should be given the same level of critical scrutiny.

Let me note that not only did Chorley and Bower not demonstrate that they were able to do all these crops circles in that space of time, they also didn't offer a scrap of evidence that they ever had done anything at all.

I neither know nor care what the origin of the crop circles was. In fact I think the likeliest explanation for the UFOs people see (most of the time, at least) is top secret military vehicles. According to an episode of How the States Got Their Shapes the sightings tend to be statistically clustered around the type of bases where these things are developed; old military hulls and prototypes have been found and photographed which strongly resemble flying saucers. But the point remains the same regardless of the details of the analogy. That’s why, I think, the second part of the quote was posed in purely hypothetical terms without any specific reference point. It leaves the skeptics reading it with no such outs.

[sister herb]

How did you make that shift from thinking that God does not exist to believing that he does, sister harb? Can you tell me? Did anything happen that changed your mind?

I find it difficult to imagine that somebody who does not believe in God at all (unless you always thought that there was perhaps something out there ... in which case I don't think you were a true atheist) comes to believe in God. I imagine that something quite significant has to take place for that to happen.
Can you share your story? :)

I told my story here before:

A ghost story

Years before my birth, my old grandmother became ill. She knew my mother was pregnant and wanted to leave a letter and gift to the child who would be born after her death.

As she was thinking, she died before the child was born but that child also died while still in my mother's womb.

It took time for my mother to become pregnant again. This time it was me.

My grandmother had told in her Will that the letter and gift had to be given to the next child on their 16th birthday. Once I became of age, I read the old letter. In that letter my grandmother told me she had found great relief during painful times and she hoped I too would try to read it when I felt pain in my life.

The book was old and it's name was The Quran.

Where is the ghost in this story? Every time I sit to read that book I feel like someone else is sitting beside me, reading with me and even finding the right verses for me.

She is my ghost sister, the one who the letter and book was originally meant for.


Yes maybe I had before idea that someone is behind... but Christianity didn´t give me any answers. Lately Islam gave.

:statisfie

Life also teached me to respect others and they ways to believe.

[abo mussaab]

Life also teached me to respect others and they ways to believe.
allah bless you forgive me :cry:

[glo]

I remember that story, sister harb.
But it doesn't explain how reading the Qu'ran convinced you of believing in a God you had not believed in before.

How did that happen?
One moment you thought God does not exist and the next you believed he did?
(Sorry, I don't mean to pester you. I am just trying to understand the process. I have dabbled with different religions in my time - but I have never been an atheist and I have always believed that there is a deity out there. So I am trying to understand how an atheist can become a believer.)

Salaam :)

[abo mussaab]

salam alaykoum sister glo when you think about allah its simply just listen your heart who make your heart working who created you from nothing just think little and you understend that allah look at you now if you make sins allah forgive you always

[glo]

salam alaykoum sister glo when you think about allah its simply just listen your heart who make your heart working who created you from nothing just think little and you understend that allah look at you now if you make sins allah forgive you always

Amen to that, abo mussaab. :)

I understand all that and I totally agree.
What I am interested in is how an atheist who doesn't believe in the existence of God at all can come to experience that and change their hearts and minds about him.

[abo mussaab]

just look this aya sister and you understend in sha allah

:bism:

Nun. By the pen and what they inscribe,

You are not, [O Muhammad], by the favor of your Lord, a madman.

And indeed, for you is a reward uninterrupted.

And indeed, you are of a great moral character.

So you will see and they will see

Which of you is the afflicted [by a devil].

Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has gone astray from His way, and He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided.

Then do not obey the deniers.

They wish that you would soften [in your position], so they would soften [toward you].

And do not obey every worthless habitual swearer

[And] scorner, going about with malicious gossip -

A preventer of good, transgressing and sinful,

Cruel, moreover, and an illegitimate pretender.

Surah Al-Qalam [68: 1-13]

[abo mussaab]

salam alaykoum look this sister maybe its help you insha allah
Physicists prove the existence of God

[ccc]

god is unprovable, it is followable. The question is. Who would i follow? You can not change scientifically change this option.This word has other laws than we would like, there are not the easy ways we pretend that existence should have.

[sister herb]

Peace with you Glo

I started to think after reading the Quran. I remember that I was believe the God is part of this world but I didn´t find where was that part. I read and think about 7 years, met people and talked with them about this matter but nothing made any sense.

^o)

Then I at one day walked in the forest and turned my ideas about the God upsidedown. What if the God is not part of this world but this world is part of the God. That made even some sense. Then I read more and found term as jihad from islam and I knew it was very important to understand.

Ok ok the western media calls it as the holy war against others but I was thinking it has some deeper meaning. Those years when I alone tried to understand islam better I felt like islam is the garden but there were walls. I knew that garden is the most beautiful and I wanted to go to there. There I found the door but it was locked and I hadn´t the key.

I had to turn back to looking for the key - even I wasn´t sure what the key was. At that time in my city hadn´t any muslims so I was totally alone with my searching. What was they missing key?

:phew

I read more and understood meaning of jihad - fighting we everyone have inside in our souls against bad and trying to be good. That was the key to me and then when I opened the door to islam I understood I haven´t any right to step to islam - I felt the most sorrow I ever felt that maybe Allah doesn´t want me to become muslim. I submitted the will of Allah that I might leave rest of my life non-muslim and then I felt like someone would carry me inside.

For a moment I was light as feather and I knew I came to my real home.

And sorry my English - hopely you get even some sense about my story.

[sister herb]

Anyways, when we find mercy of the God/Allah is something mystical and we all feel it by many different ways.

:D

[glo]

For a moment I was light as feather and I knew I came to my real home.

That's a great feeling isn't it?
I remember that too. Coming home ... :statisfie

Thanks for sharing your story. :)

[sister herb]

Yes Glo that is so reliefing feeling.

I am happy that you have found it too. You help me to understand how you found it from the other religion where I didn´t find it. Maybe in my culture it was too much love to me.

I will think your question in PM and answer later by email.

[MustafaMc]

Relative to some of the posts here of late, I had started this thread about the lack of physical proof for God's existence. http://www.islamicboard.com/aqeedah/...ml#post1492565

Atheists require (no, absolutely demand) physical evidence of God's existence, while theists are satisfied with faith that often comes at their wonderment in what they see as the creation being evidence for a Creator. If there was scientific proof, then could there be such a thing as faith? For example, I have never seen a single molecule of oxygen, but do I know, or do I believe it exists? I believe that I know it exists and that in its absence, I know that I would die. Likewise, I believe that I know God exists, because I see that if He does not exists, then I see that it is impossible for me to ever have come into being.

I perceive that the question of their personal origin does not come to atheists, or if it does come they are satisfied with a so-called scientific theory that claims we arose from a simple, unicellular prokaryotic Common Ancestor through a completely natural process - natural selection acting upon genetic variation that arose primarily through mutations and chromosomal reorganizations. Does it strike anyone as odd that I, as a biological scientist, have faith in God, but doubt a 'scientific theory'?

[tearose]

What if the God is not part of this world but this world is part of the God.

As-salamu 3laikum sister harb,

Just curious what you mean by this. The world is part of the creation of Allah subhanahu wa taala, but we know that the creation is totally separate from Allah. So I'm not sure what you meant.

[sister herb]

As-salamu 3laikum sister harb,

Just curious what you mean by this. The world is part of the creation of Allah subhanahu wa taala, but we know that the creation is totally separate from Allah. So I'm not sure what you meant.

Salam alaykum

When I was thinking that the God/Allah is part of the world I wasn´t muslim yet but atheist. So I didn´t know it at that time.

[abo mussaab]

[sister herb]

By English here!

[tearose]

When I was thinking that the God/Allah is part of the world I wasn´t muslim yet but atheist. So I didn´t know it at that time.

Thanks for you reply sister jazaki Allahu khair. I understand what you meant now, by the way your story is really beautiful.

[Pygoscelis]

For example, I have never seen a single molecule of oxygen, but do I know, or do I believe it exists? I believe that I know it exists and that in its absence, I know that I would die.

We can measure oxygen. We formed testable and falsifiable hypotheses and have found all evidence, yes actual evidence, to point to oxygen being there. Not so with God. It is all fine and good to say you believe in God based on "faith", but "faith" to me just means believing because you want something to be true, despite having no evidence; believing because you choose to. And that isn't really something I would call a virtue.

Likewise, I believe that I know God exists, because I see that if He does not exists, then I see that it is impossible for me to ever have come into being.

I am not so quick to make that leap. I don't know that it is impossible for me to have come into being without a God. I do not believe you know either. You employ faith.

I perceive that the question of their personal origin does not come to atheists

Sure it does

or if it does come they are satisfied with a so-called scientific theory that claims we arose from a simple, unicellular prokaryotic Common Ancestor through a completely natural process - natural selection acting upon genetic variation that arose primarily through mutations and chromosomal reorganizations.

I'm not satisfied with that. I think that is the best guess we currently have based on what evidence we have managed to come up with, but I don't find it a very good guess. I am content to simply admit I do not know, and to condiser whatever new evidence or ideas come along. Why is it so frowned upon to admit we don't know what we don't know?

Does it strike anyone as odd that I, as a biological scientist, have faith in God, but doubt a 'scientific theory'?

I doubt a lot of scientific theories. Isn't that why we call them theories?