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glo
03-25-2013, 07:03 PM
The recent thread about atheists got me thinking.

Are we 'designed' to believe in God? What I mean by that is, do we have a deep intrinsic desire or need for God? God given?

I know that some non-believers are thinking about theories why humans should have that need (in terms of evolutionary development).

The fact remains that the vast majority of people on this planet believe in God or some kind of deity or some kind of greater power.

My question is, why is that?
What are your thoughts? (And remember, play nice!) ;D
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Abu Loren
03-26-2013, 08:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Are we 'designed' to believe in God? What I mean by that is, do we have a deep intrinsic desire or need for God? God given?
The answer is yes. In Islam we believe that every single human being that is born into this world has a sense of seeking and worshipping God Almighty, known in Arabic as Fitra then our life experiences deterrmine whether we continue this quest or give in to satan and are lead astray. Our intrinsic belief is also to worship One God but through our upbringing we deviate from that belief and do what our parents and forefathers are doing, have done.
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Hulk
03-26-2013, 09:16 AM
Sis Glo I hope you take a moment to listen to this audio clip



The clip doesn't specifically address your post but I think it's still worth listening to.

To me the existence of God is obvious. If you were sitting alone on a beach and out of nowhere a shoe fell on top of your head, you will always be wondering where that shoe came from. It's a simple understanding that every creation has a source. It's part of our nature to want to learn. Even kids, they wonder about where they come from.

A lot of the athiests that I've encountered seem to neglect their ability to reason and instead go all-out on "scientific evidence", which might sound amazing because of how science has improved our lives but it's really quite silly to rely on that and ignore your own ability to reason. Scientific research helps you in understanding how nature works so that it may benefit you, but once you put that tool of study above your own ability to think and reflect then you've become sorry to say less intelligent.
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Pygoscelis
03-26-2013, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
The recent thread about atheists got me thinking.

Are we 'designed' to believe in God? What I mean by that is, do we have a deep intrinsic desire or need for God? God given?

I know that some non-believers are thinking about theories why humans should have that need (in terms of evolutionary development).

The fact remains that the vast majority of people on this planet believe in God or some kind of deity or some kind of greater power.

My question is, why is that?
What are your thoughts? (And remember, play nice!) ;D
I think it is the same thing that makes children instinctively look to their mothers makes adults look to Gods. We are born with the innate tendency to trust and believe in a higher power, "mom". We also have an innate tendency to imply agency, even where it isn't. This is why we plead with our cars low on gas to get to the next gas station or sneer at our toasters after they burn our bread. We also see recognizable shapes in clouds and other random arrangements. I think this is all related, and I don't think it exclusive to humans.
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IAmZamzam
03-26-2013, 04:12 PM
I know that some non-believers are thinking about theories why humans should have that need (in terms of evolutionary development).
I hope it's all right if I issue a correction here: their theories are about alleged reasons as to how we have that need. "Why" is a subject which will always elude the sciences on every issue just by the very nature of the word.

It may not be of any use to point this out, though. In my experience the atheist will usually dodge the fact with an equivocation fallacy, confusing "why" in the sense of "what makes things one way when in theory they could hypothetically have been in another way instead" with "why" in the sense of "for what conscious motive", and accuse you of therefore begging the question as to whether there is a living entity involved. One way or another it's always about semantics...
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Independent
03-26-2013, 05:28 PM
I think we have many characteristics which make belief systems likely, but that's not the same as saying they are 'innate':

1. We are naturally curious to learn - or at least, as children we are, although as adults some people lose the capacity. So it's natural for us to ask 'why' as well as 'how'.

2. We seem to have an innate awareness of beauty (although what we consider beautiful can vary enormously) in nature, in art, in thought and in people.

3. We are anthropomorphic in our thinking - we have a tendency to believe the world revolves around us (eg that rainbow must be a 'sign').

I don't think any of these would make it reasonable to say we are 'programmed' to believe although you could say they make us 'predisposed'.

Perhaps there is another characteristic although this is more contentious: a moral sense, a desire for moral justice.

Is this really innate and universal? Some people don't seem to have it. I wonder if it's only true in a 'social' world? Would we have a moral sense if we grew up in complete isolation from anyone else? Isn't it interaction with other people that makes us moral?

But certainly, religion is a way to restore moral justice to events which seem immoral (ie you'll be punished in the afterlife even if you away with it now). And it strongly answers our anthropomorphic need to 'explain' nature and events in a way that gives purpose, meaning and value to our own existence.
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White Rose
03-26-2013, 05:35 PM
Yes I think we are. I say that because people who submit to a higher power are more organized while those who don't are more likely to go the wrong way. To further elaborate it, why is it that an army crumbles when their leader dies. That's because they don't have any directions to follow.
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~Zaria~
03-26-2013, 05:42 PM
Greetings Glo,

format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Are we 'designed' to believe in God? What I mean by that is, do we have a deep intrinsic desire or need for God? God given?
Why would a Supreme Creator, bring into existence and give life to a creation that He sustains in every possible way - and then, not expect acknowledgement, gratitude and worship?

Allah himself says:




And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me. (Quran 51:56)


In other words, THIS is the reason for our existence.

There is no other purpose for us in this short, temporary life on this earth - but to worship our Creator.

Our spouses, children, careers, wealth, possessions - are all either a means to this end (i.e. His worship), or a means of our distraction, and attaching our hearts to this world.

Allah (subhanawata'ala) also says:




The seven heavens and the earth and whatever is in them exalt Him.

And there is not a thing except that it exalts [ Allah ] by His praise, but you do not understand their [way of] exalting.

Indeed, He is ever Forbearing and Forgiving.
(Quran 17:44)


SubhanAllah.
It is only mans rebellion and shaytaan that leads him astray from his true purpose.

From a personal point of view, I do not believe that these types of topics can provide us with much benefit......instead it may be a means of fitnah/ mischief, by us trying to 'answer' a question to which, we believe, our Creator has already provided the answer.
Its not really up for discussion for a believer.


God bless.
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glo
03-26-2013, 06:40 PM
Thank you all for your thoughtful and interesting thoughts and comments.
I am not interested to discuss or debate anything - just to ponder your views and thoughts.

Peace :)
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IAmZamzam
03-26-2013, 07:07 PM
3. We are anthropomorphic in our thinking - we have a tendency to believe the world revolves around us (eg that rainbow must be a 'sign').
I have always been quick to challenge this.

First, because the people making this argument seem to be getting confused between anthropocentrism or anthropomorphism and mere personification. We humans tend to describe things using human reference points, even inside our own heads, because it’s helpful for us to do so. It's similar to the "write what you know" principle. But that doesn't mean that we really think of anything that way. Several times a day I say to myself, "This computer just doesn't want to give me an inch!" Am I really projecting my humanity onto the computer? No, not really. I know metal and silicon when I see it. I’m just in the habit of talking a certain way. I’ll bet there have probably even been cultures where people never did that sort of thing.

Second, because every religion that I know of, past and present, centers in some way or other—in some sense or other—around the idea of something out there which is much higher than the self, to which we must give up our egotism and devote ourselves. Something which humanity pales in comparison to.

Third, because The Qur'an is, more than any other religion in all of history, anti-anthropocentrism. “The creation of the heavens and the earth is far greater than the creation of humanity, but most humans are ignorant [of this fact].” (Surah 40, verse 57, Khalidi)

Fourth, if there are signs in nature then how does that make everything revolve around us in particular? Why can’t other species be in on it too? Like djinn—or, for that matter, aliens or extradimensional beings? Why just us? Where does it say it’s all about us? I have never seen one tiny little whit of scriptural support for this notion that religion makes the whole world revolve around humans, in our own holy texts or anyone else’s. Not once. Not one quote from one book. In fact 40:57 up there proves quite the opposite is the case. Antireligious people just made the whole thing up out of their own imaginations (or maybe out of a misunderstanding of the fine tuning argument). It’s a total straw man.

Finally, even if we did have an innate tendency to see signs in things, I could just turn right around and say that this tendency is what makes us so neurologically well-equipped to spot the very real signs that are actually there, whereas other animals might not notice them. Surely no one’s thinking of making an appeal to motive fallacy?
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Hulk
03-26-2013, 07:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Thank you all for your thoughtful and interesting thoughts and comments.
I am not interested to discuss or debate anything - just to ponder your views and thoughts.

Peace
just kidding!
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IAmZamzam
03-26-2013, 08:04 PM
^^ Otto is much more to the point, isn't he?
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Al-Mufarridun
03-26-2013, 08:11 PM
We are self-aware, we are born and we die. It is 'natural' for a self-aware mortal to at one point in his/her life question, 'who am I? where am I from? where am I going? Is there a greater Purpose?'. It is also a natural and a universal belief that something can't come from nothing. It is also the norm for any intelligent creature to believe that whoever created him/her must be greater and more intelligent than him/her.

Those who don't believe in a higher power or creator for whatever reason, are certainly the anomalies.
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Independent
03-26-2013, 09:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
I have always been quick to challenge this.
Yes - although the question wasn't about Islam in particular and my answer wasn't about Islam in particular.

format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
if there are signs in nature then how does that make everything revolve around us in particular? Why can’t other species be in on it too?
Signs are interesting but you have to be aware that something unusual has happened in order to feel anything at all.

Recognition of potentially significant signs is clearly a strong human characteristic. Our brains are very good at filtering out unnecessary information and focusing on differences or irregularities. So when something striking happens - for instance a comet - then we definitely notice it and we look for reasons. We have a good instinct for noticing something that appears to be against the laws of nature (as we understand them at the time).

However, as our understanding of the workings of nature increases, there are fewer events that impress us as significant.
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IAmZamzam
03-26-2013, 09:14 PM
Did I say anything about how we feel?

We have a good instinct for noticing something that appears to be against the laws of nature (as we understand them at the time).
Then why have so many people believed in a designer who didn't believe in miracles, including that whole long deist movement during the Enlightenment? Why was it noticing what the laws of nature do to the world that led me to belief in God? They are, after all, what give things their order. We may be built to notice patterns, but not a dang thing you do can change the fact that there very objectively are patterns to be noticed. Just look at mathematics. Look at the fact that we are capable of having such a discipline as mathematics. Whatever our reasons for doing so, and however instinctual they may or may not be, it remains that we use math to describe objectively true facts, and even if human beings had never existed the facts of the matter would not just go POOF! and disappear. I hope you realize that. I'm glad to be part of a species that's good at spotting such things, however and why-ever it happened.

However, as our understanding of the workings of nature increases, there are fewer events that impress us as significant
Is that why Islam keeps getting more and more widespread? If anything the popularity of religion in general keeps waxing instead of waning as history moves on.
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Independent
03-26-2013, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Why was it noticing what the laws of nature do to the world that led me to belief in God?
Well, you're talking about particular experiences and about Islam whereas I'm talking about the notion of a religious urge in general. Many early religions had a strong element of explaining natural phenomena. Of course, some people today come to their faith as much through perception of order as irregularity. But the key motivations still seem to stem from the big irregularities that lie outside the pattern - especially the moment of creation.

format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
If anything the popularity of religion in general keeps waxing instead of waning as history moves on.
In the context of the question at the start of this thread, the relevant change is not the ratio between religions but the rise of atheism/agnosticism, which has been enormous over the last 200 years. I suggest that the parallel rise of science is mostly responsible for that change. (Although not deliberately or as an objective.)

Partly because we now feel nature seems to require less supernatural intervention than we thought before, and partly because religious leaders have often chosen to oppose their faith against a particular scientific advance (eg suppression of Galileo).
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GuestFellow
03-26-2013, 09:58 PM
I don't know. I can't remember anything from when I was a kid. It was only when I started thinking about death I began to become more aware of a higher being.
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Berries'forest
03-26-2013, 10:02 PM
Why do western people hate religion so much?. Seriously, they're more responsible for killing than anyother nation so why do they hate religion so much. If someone does not want to engage in relationships before marraige and wants to pray to their Lord then they should mind their own business. They should also be more concerned with their own problems like they recent tragedy that happened in Georgia two young boys killing a baby by shooting the little poor child and yet the claim to be civilised and advanced nations. Maybe they should stop hating on religion and actually take a deeper look at themselves before they point fingers at anyone.
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Independent
03-26-2013, 10:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Berries'forest
Why do western people hate religion so much?
I don't see what this comment has to do with this thread.
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Berries'forest
03-26-2013, 10:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
don't see what this comment has to do with this thread.
It has everything to with it. For one; all we ever see is them asking question like are we designed to believe in God. It doesn't take a genius that the initial question itself already gave out the answer in advance designed ending with -ed. Well then who designed you if it's not your imposed self than it's obviously God or as some of you prefer it a higher supreme being. Diverting reall issues and blaming everything on religion you never see that happening anywhere except in the west or from people who adopt westernized beliefs. Why don't they just quit it if the west is really that concerned with human rights and development then maybe they should stop lying around and actaully do something. But no they wont and honestly no one needs them any way so why do they insist on interfering in everything that has to do with other people's lives and now they're scrambling through religion. Your answer is simple yes we are designed to believe there's nothing more to discuss.
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Independent
03-26-2013, 10:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Berries'forest
For one; all we ever see is them asking question like are we designed to believe in God.
You make several gross generalisations about westerners.

The lady who asked the question - Glo - is herself very much a believer so I very much doubt she is trying to undermine religion in any way.

She also invited us to 'play nice' in this thread which doesn't seem to be working out, so I think I'll leave it at that.
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Berries'forest
03-26-2013, 10:32 PM
I'm making no generalisations but it's true. The whole society looks down on those whom are religious as backwardly or uncivilised and you see these examples everyday. Where else but the west would a women feel ashamed to admit that she's a virgin? and where else but the west do people feel pressured into mocking religion because it's 'irrational' and 'dangerous'. Only God knows about what's inside everyone's heart I don't see how other people's input can be of any benefit as she previously proclaimed her self to be a christian believer shouldn't she grasy that understanding from the Bible and not from an IslamicBoard. And I'm not mean before you pass a judgement on me and get defensive because I pointed out a few facts you should actual consider their credibility.
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IAmZamzam
03-26-2013, 10:44 PM
Sweetie, be careful how you put things. I'm a westerner too. And if anything people here feel pressured not to go against traditional religion (i.e. Christianity)--although it may vary by exact region. People have their problems everywhere. There isn't a single non-godless nation on earth and there never has been. The world is a great big Baskin-Robbins serving thirty-one flavors of sugar-coated distraction from prayer. One kind isn't better or worse than another.

Sigh. I wonder how long it will be before the word "Zionism" finds its way into this somehow....
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Berries'forest
03-26-2013, 10:53 PM
I am not your sweetie!. As a muslim you should use more modest phrases when adressing someone from the opposite gender. I didn't say all westerners are religion haters but I said the vast majority of them do and infact they hate it very much.
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IAmZamzam
03-26-2013, 11:01 PM
Forgive me, I sometimes overlook the different connotations or lack of figurative meanings that certain words hold in certain places...

But it's also all too easy for people to forget that saying "the vast majority of this humungous group consisting of hundreds and hundreds of millions of people, of whom I personally know of maybe 0.00001%", does not make what they're doing any less of a stereotype. Human nature is really weird sometimes.

Although accurate statistics are pretty well impossible to keep on matters of what people believe about anything, to the degree that we know what westerners are we know that the vast majority of them are not religion-haters. You can feel free to look that up.
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Berries'forest
03-26-2013, 11:08 PM
Do you always have to do that?. The situation is the same as every where else. You say that I'm making judgements based on my experiences but I'm not. I am pointing out to facts of reality. There is a sense of downgrading religion you can't possibly deny that even if you wanted to. If you want to use political correctness use it on all side and not just one.
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IAmZamzam
03-26-2013, 11:13 PM
There's that phrase "politically correct" again.

It's possible that there are a few observations I do make a lot. But that doesn't make me wrong when I make them. Some things need to be said, and often. Now religion (usually just meaning Trinitarian Christianity anyway) does get "downgraded" more than it should in many people's lives over here, that's true, but that isn't the same thing as almost all of them positively hating it.
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Berries'forest
03-26-2013, 11:18 PM
I am not discussing this any further. You can want to believe whatever you want it doesn't concern me at all. You're speaking geographically, I didn't direct this to you personally so why do you have to assign yourself as a lawyer of defence?. I am not participating in this thread any further but I frankly don't understand what any benfit a thread like this could be. If it concerns christianity then maybe these thoughts should be shifted to a Christian forum and not an Islamic one.
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glo
03-27-2013, 08:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
However, as our understanding of the workings of nature increases, there are fewer events that impress us as significant.
I listened to a radio programme yesterday by Rev David Wilkinson, a Christians minister with a background in astrophysics.

He warned against this 'God of the gap' thinking which reduces the importance and relevance of God every time science makes a new discovery. It can also discourage people from seeking scientific knowledge, because it is seen as a threat to religious belief.

As a scientist his view of God was quite different.
He sees God and his presence in the wonders of the world around us. So asking question about this world and seeking scientific answers to them is not a threat to his faith, but a way of learning more about God's creation and (ultimately) about God himself.
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Hulk
03-27-2013, 11:16 AM
Sis Glo that "God of the gaps" thing is so silly and a waste of time IMO as its based on a straw man argument. The atheist assumes that the reason why believers believe is that because they don't understand how nature works. If anything it's the atheists' own "argument of the gaps". They don't understand why people believe so they make up this argument to make sense of it.
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IAmZamzam
03-27-2013, 01:12 PM
Nothing happens when I try to click on "add to this user's reputation", Hulk, but just so long as you know that I'm thinking it.
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Pygoscelis
03-27-2013, 03:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
I listened to a radio programme yesterday by Rev David Wilkinson, a Christians minister with a background in astrophysics.

He warned against this 'God of the gap' thinking which reduces the importance and relevance of God every time science makes a new discovery. It can also discourage people from seeking scientific knowledge, because it is seen as a threat to religious belief.

As a scientist his view of God was quite different.
He sees God and his presence in the wonders of the world around us. So asking question about this world and seeking scientific answers to them is not a threat to his faith, but a way of learning more about God's creation and (ultimately) about God himself.
That is refreshing and really quite beautiful.
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IbnAbdulHakim
03-27-2013, 05:34 PM
If we werent designed to believe, the majority of this world wouldn't have been believers of a Higher power.


:)
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ccc
03-29-2013, 10:38 PM
we were designed to be free, this is the greatest thing God made, free beings, who can refuse Him despite being made in the same time capable of reaching happiness only in faith and love. Without freedom there is no faith, because we would be not the authors of our denial of God.
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Hulk
03-30-2013, 07:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ccc
we were designed to be free, this is the greatest thing God made, free beings, who can refuse Him despite being made in the same time capable of reaching happiness only in faith and love. Without freedom there is no faith, because we would be not the authors of our denial of G
Would you mind referencing where in christian religious text is it mentioned that human beings are the greatest creation of God? Would appreciate it.

In Islam the human being is given free will in the sense that he is capable of choosing his choices on his own, however we are supposed to practice ikhtiyar which is to choose the better choice. If we were to choose the bad choice then we are doing injustice to ourselves.

“We have indeed created humankind in the best of molds. Then do We abase him (to be) the lowest of the low,- Except such as believe and do righteous deeds: For they shall have a reward unfailing.”
Quran 95:4-6 (Surat At-Tin, The Fig)

Because of how we were created, we have the capacity to be better than the angels or worse than animals. Angels were created to serve God and are incapable of disobedience. Animals are subjected to their own carnal desires that they are unable to deny themselves from.

We are in between.

God knows best.
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ccc
03-31-2013, 10:35 AM
I have some texts in english from the early christian writings regarding free will, which is what signifies in the christian theology "the image of God"

John of the Ladder
, a sixth century Desert Father, in his spiritual classic The Ladder of Divine Ascent wrote:

Of the rational beings created by Him and honoured with the dignity of free-will, some are His friends, others are His true servants, some are worthless, some are completely estranged from God, and others, though feeble creatures, are His opponents (1991:3).


Justin Martyr and “The Philosopher” wrote:

For the coming into being at first was not in our own power; and in order that we may follow those things which please Him, choosing them by means of the rational faculties He has Himself endowed us with, He both persuades us and leads us to faith (First Apology 10; Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. I, p. 165).
St. Irenaeus concurs:
This expression of our Lord, "How often would I have gathered thy children together,
and thou wouldest not, (Matthew 23:37) II , set forth the ancient law of human liberty,
because God made man a free agent from the beginning, possessing his own power,
even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by
compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will towards us is
present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. In man,
as well as the angels, He has placed the power of choice...so that those who had yielded
obedience might rightly possess the good, given indeed by God, but preserved by
themselves. On, the other hand, they who have not obeyed, shall, with justice, be not
found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment : for God did
kindly bestow on them what was good;... (Against the Heresies, IV, 37, I).


and a fragment from Kallistos Ware, with references to the early texts:

The Creation of Man. "And God said, let us make man according to our image and likeness" (Genesis 1:26). God speaks in the plural: "Let us make man." The creation of man, so the Greek Fathers continually emphasized, was an act of all three persons in the Trinity, and therefore the image and likeness of God must always be thought of as a Trinitarian image and likeness. We shall find that this is a point of vital importance.

Image and Likeness. According to most of the Greek Fathers, the terms image and likeness do not mean exactly the same thing. ‘The expression according to the image,’ wrote John of Damascus, ‘indicates rationality and freedom, while the expression according to the likeness indicates assimilation to God through virtue (On the Orthodox Faith, 2, 12 (P.G. 94, 920B)). The image, or to use the Greek term the icon, of God signifies man’s free will, his reason, his sense of moral responsibility — everything, in short, which marks man out from the animal creation and makes him a person. But the image means more than that. It means that we are God’s ‘offspring’ (Acts 27:28), His kin; it means that between us and Him there is a point of contact, an essential similarity. The gulf between creature and Creator is not impassable, for because we are in God’s image we can know God and have communion with Him. And if a man makes proper use of this faculty for communion with God, then he will become ‘like’ God, he will acquire the divine likeness; in the words of John Damascene, he will be ‘assimilated to God through virtue.’ To acquire the likeness is to be deified, it is to become a ‘second god,’ a ‘god by grace.’ "I said, you are gods, and all of you sons of the Most High" (Psalm 81:6). (In quotations from the Psalms, the numbering of the Septuagint is followed. Some versions of the Bible reckon this Psalm as 82.)


"Man at his first creation was therefore perfect, not so much in an actual as in a potential sense. Endowed with the image from the start, he was called to acquire the likeness by his own efforts (assisted of course by the grace of God). Adam began in a state of innocence and simplicity. ‘He was a child, not yet having his understanding perfected,’ wrote Irenaeus. ‘It was necessary that he should grow and so come to his perfection (Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching, 12). God set Adam on the right path, but Adam had in front of him a long road to traverse in order to reach his final goal.

This picture of Adam before the fall is somewhat different from that presented by Saint Augustine and generally accepted in the west since his time. According to Augustine, man in Paradise was endowed from the start with all possible wisdom and knowledge: his was a realized, and in no sense potential, perfection. The dynamic conception of Irenaeus clearly fits more easily with modern theories of evolution than does the static conception of Augustine; but both were speaking as theologians, not as scientists, so that in neither case do their views stand or fall with any particular scientific hypothesis.
The west has often associated the image of God with man’s intellect. While many Orthodox have done the same, others would say that since man is a single unified whole, the image of God embraces his entire person, body as well as soul. ‘When God is said to have made man according to His image,’ wrote Gregory Palamas, ‘the word man means neither the soul by itself nor the body by itself, but the two together (P.G. 150, 1361C). The fact that man has a body, so Gregory argued, makes him not lower but higher than the angels. True, the angels are ‘pure’ spirit, whereas man’s nature is ‘mixed’ — material as well as intellectual; but this means that his nature is more complete than the angelic and endowed with richer potentialities. Man is a microcosm, a bridge and point of meeting for the whole of God’s creation."
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