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ccc
03-29-2013, 11:12 PM
I would like a short answer, not a site or book to read, the accepted explanation in the muslim interpretation of this fact. It can' t be that explanation I read in a site that Jesus was named this way because He did not have a father and God only said "Be" so he came into being in the same manner Adam did because Adam and nobody is named this way in Quran. Even Mohamed is only a "servant of God"
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جوري
03-29-2013, 11:27 PM
actually we're all servants of God and so is Jesus and such he was referred to in the same book as well we're all the word of God and everything is in creation. All God has to do is say be and it is!

best,
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ccc
03-29-2013, 11:31 PM
this is exactly the problem: in quran only Jesus is named this way.Why?
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جوري
03-29-2013, 11:33 PM
to clarify to the christians!

An-Nisa (The Women)[4:172]attention 6 - [RECITE]
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4 172 1 -
Lan yastankifa almaseehu an yakoona AAabdan lillahi wala almalaikatu almuqarraboona waman yastankif AAan AAibadatihi wayastakbir fasayahshuruhum ilayhi jameeAAan
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جوري
03-29-2013, 11:35 PM
I also recall posting this for you before hopefully you might try reading it this time around:

by Ahmad Deedat

The word CHRIST is derived from the Hebrew word Messiah, Arabic-Masih. Root word m-a-s-a-h-a, meaning to rub, to massage, to anoint. Priests and kings were anointed when being consecrated to their offices. But in its translated, Grecian form "CHRIST", it seems unique:befitting Jesus only. The Christian has a knack of transmuting baser metals into shining gold. What he is wont to do is to translate names into his own language like "cephas" to Peter, "messiah" to Christ. How does he do that? Very easily MESSIAH in Hebrew means anointed. The Greek word for anointed is "christos". Just lop off the 'os' from christos and you are left with christ. Now change the little 'c' to a capital 'C', and "hey, presto!" he has created a unique (?) name! Christos means ANOINTED, and anointed means APPOINTED in its religious connotation. Jesus (pbuh) was appointed (anointed) at his baptism by John the Baptist, as God's Messenger.Every Prophet of God is so anointed or appointed. The Holy Bible is replete with the "anointed" ones. In the original Hebrew - made a "messiah". Let us keep to the English translation - "anointed." Not only were prophets and priests and kings anointed (christos-ed), but borns, and cherubs and lamp-posts also.
I am the God of Beth-el, where you ANOINTED a pillar.....
Genesis 31:13
If the priest that is ANOINTED do sin....
Leviticus 4:3
And Moses....ANOINTED the tabernacle and all things that was therein...
Leviticus 8:10
...THE LORD SHALL....EXALT THE HORN OF HIS ANOINTED
1 Samuel 2:10
Thus saith the Lord to his ANOINTED to Cyrus....
Isaiah 45:1
Thou art the ANOINTED cherub....
Ezekiel 28:14

There are a hundred more such references in the Holy Bible. Everytime you come across the word ANOINTED in your English Bible, you can take it that that word would be christos in the Greek translations, and if you take the same liberty with the word that the Christians have done, you will have - Christ Cherub, Christ Cyrus, Christ Priest and Christ Pillar, etc.
SOME TITLES EXCLUSIVE

Although, every prophet of God is an ANOINTED one of God - a Messiah, the title "Masih" or "Messiah" or its translation "CHRIST" is exclusively reserved for Jesus, the son of Mary, in both Islam and in Christianity. This is not unusual in religion. There are certain other honorific title which may be applied to more than one prophet, yet being made exclusive to one by usage: like "Rasul-lullah", meaning Messenger of God, which title is applied to both Moses (19:51) and Jesus (61:6) in the Holy Quran. Yet "Rasul-lullah" has become synonymous only with the Prophet of Islam among Muslims.
Every prophet is indeed a FRIEND OF GOD, but its Arabic equivalent "Kha- lil-lullah" is exclusively associated with Father Abraham. This does not mean that the others are not God's friends. "Kalimul-lah" (One who spoke with God) is never used for anyone other than Moses, yet we believe that God spoke with all His Messengers, including Jesus and Muhummed (May the Peace and Blessings of God be upon all His servants). Associating certain titles with certain personages only, does not make them exclusive or unique in any way. We honour all in varying terms.
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ccc
03-29-2013, 11:41 PM
i asked you why Jesus is so special in quran, and you answer me saying that the word christ doesn't mean necessary something that special in the bible.
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جوري
03-29-2013, 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by ccc
i asked you why Jesus is so special in quran, and you answer me saying that the word christ doesn't mean necessary something that special in the bible.
and I have answered you above, EVERY prophet is unique and special in his own way and famous and unique in his own way. There's no exclusivity!
He's 'special' only because he's the only prophet you're concentrating on, no more no less. Read the Quran you'll find others just as special with entire chapters dedicated to them!

best,
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YusufNoor
03-30-2013, 12:28 AM
Originally Posted by ccc
I would like a short answer, not a site or book to read, the accepted explanation in the muslim interpretation of this fact. It can' t be that explanation I read in a site that Jesus was named this way because He did not have a father and God only said "Be" so he came into being in the same manner Adam did because Adam and nobody is named this way in Quran. Even Mohamed is only a "servant of God"
pardon my ignorance, but what verses of the Qur'an are you referring to?
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جوري
03-30-2013, 12:52 AM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
pardon my ignorance, but what verses of the Qur'an are you referring to?
There's a novelty I didn't think of ;D
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IAmZamzam
03-30-2013, 01:52 AM
It can' t be that explanation I read in a site that Jesus was named this way because He did not have a father and God only said "Be" so he came into being in the same manner Adam did because Adam and nobody is named this way in Quran. Even Mohamed is only a "servant of God"
What does that even mean? Who else had to be identified that way? Was anyone at the time worshiping Adam? Wasn't Jesus also identified as a servant of God in Qur'an 19:30?

All right, then, let’s just go ahead for the sake of argument and assume that the Koranic terminology is synonymous with logos (“The Word”) and pneuma (“the Spirit”). That’s obviously what you’re driving at. According to the Christian website greekbible.com logos can mean “a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea”. It can also mean “the sayings of God”. (Interestingly it can also mean “account, i.e. reckoning, score”.) Pneuma can mean a lot of things too. Among them are:

* the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
* the soul
* a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
* a life giving spirit
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Ahmad H
03-30-2013, 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by ccc
I would like a short answer, not a site or book to read, the accepted explanation in the muslim interpretation of this fact. It can' t be that explanation I read in a site that Jesus was named this way because He did not have a father and God only said "Be" so he came into being in the same manner Adam did because Adam and nobody is named this way in Quran. Even Mohamed is only a "servant of God"
So to clarify, you asked why Jesus (as) and Adam (as) are considered to be the only two people who are said to have had the Spirit of God breathed into them. And you are wondering why is it that Jesus (as) has such a special status as to being called the Word of God and the Spirit of God. Correct?

To answer your question, consider that the Arabic for Word is "Kalimat" and Spirit is "Ruh". I won't write in Arabic letters because I don't know if you know how to read Arabic or not. My guess is that you read verse 4:171 in the Qur'an and you were wondering why this was said at all about him and no one else. The short answer is that he is not the only one to whom this kind of reference was given. I have seen translations say one thing and another in their English meaning, but when I read the Arabic, even by not knowing that much of it, I find that the term "Ruhun minhu" (Spirit from Him) is used elsewhere in the Qur'an as well.

This term is used in verse 58:22:

58:22 Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity.

Furthermore, that website you read on this issue about, which said that only Jesus (as) and Adam (as) are mentioned to have had a Spirit breathed into them by Allah from Himself in special mention is incorrect. In fact, Hazrat Bibi Maryam (ra) also had a special mention of this in the Qur'an as well:

21:91 And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.

It doesn't say specifically "Ruhun minhu" here as well, but the meaning is all the same here. The point of this verse is to demonstrate to you that that website you went to was not accurate. If what you claim it said is true.

Another point to note is that after all of this it becomes clear that the Spirit which Allah gave from Himself does not form a part of His Divine Self, but it is only a gift of Allah to those whom He sees worthy of attaining this gift. The proof of this is that the term "minhu" (from Him) is used in this sense elsewhere in the Qur'an:

45:13 And He has subjected to you, as from Him, all that is in the heavens and on earth: Behold, in that are Signs indeed for those who reflect.

The Qur'an uses these expressions of "Kalimat" (Word) and "Ruh" (Spirit) because there were ugly charges made against him by the Jews against him and his mother. Thus, you can appreciate that the Holy Qur'an has cleared both Jesus (as) and Mary (ra) of these charges. Allah Himself said that their status was high and was not as the Jews said they were. This is a very high stance they have with Allah and it is a great mercy from Him. It also shows how much they were both insulted. Imagine how much the hearts of those Christians who heard this from such a huge group of Jews felt, especially the ones who were the target of this, Jesus (as) and his pure and noble mother, Mary (ra).

Furthermore, the mention of Jesus (as) being the "Word" of Allah, "Kalimat", is an interesting notion in the Qur'an. If I am correct, Christians (meaning you as well) generally believe that Jesus (as) is the Word of God personified. He is considered above all of the other Prophets, because none of them shared in this status (according to them) and thus he is superior and completely distinguishable from them. There is pride in his being this special "Word" of God because he shared in it eternally and was then human. Again, correct me if I am wrong. I am trying to paint the picture here of how highly Christians praise Jesus (as) with regard to this.

That being said, the Holy Qur'an has shattered this picture for the Christians. Allah has said in the Holy Qur'an:

18:109 Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

This verse is speaking about the "Kalimat" of Allah. Allah has an inexhaustible reserve of His Kalimat (Words) which nothing can satisfy.

This fact is further corroborated by the Holy Qur'an when it explains that Jesus (as) was only a humble Messenger of Allah and a human being like any other, despite his very high status with Allah in terms of his spiritual rank and closeness with Him:

43:59 He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.

And in fact he, as well as the Holy Prophet (saw), were no more than servants of Allah:

19:30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

And now to finally quote verse 4:171, we find that it says all of these things as well. Knowing what you know after all of this, you can read it and appreciate it in a different manner:

4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

Thus, Jesus (as) was only a Messenger, and only His Word, and a Spirit, which was gifted from Allah to him. He was not part of a Trinity of Godhood, instead, he was what Allah said he is in this Ayat. His being a Word of Allah and a Spirit from Him does not mean he was specially above any of the other Prophets of Allah by being gifted divinity. Rather, he was like all of the rest of the Messengers of Allah. They had Allah's Words bestowed upon them, and they had been vested with the Spirit of Allah as well. "Ruh" itself has many different meanings, such as inspiration, revelation, mercy, soul or spirit, and breath which pervades the whole body after the exit of which man dies, angel, Qur'an, joy and happiness. So "Ruh" applies to many things and many people, and this would include all of the Prophets of Allah as well since they shared in the revelations as well.

Peace be upon those who seek the truth.
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ccc
04-01-2013, 09:06 PM
"Thus, Jesus (as) was only a Messenger, and only His Word, and a Spirit, which was gifted from Allah to him."
Wow, so you can take a part from god and put it in a creature. You can take God's Word from Him
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جوري
04-01-2013, 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by ccc
Wow, so you can take a part from god and put it in a creature. You can take God's Word from Him
Let me break this to you gently. We're all the word of God, and we're all breathed into from his spirit:

As-Sajdah (The Prostration)[32:9]attention 1 - [RECITE]
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32 9 1 -
Thumma sawwahu wanafakha feehi min roohihi wajaAAala lakumu alssamAAa waalabsara waalafidata qaleelan ma tashkuroona
you were already informed that the similitude of Jesus is that of Adam.. except Adam had neither father or mother.. if we're to worship a man shouldn't he be the ultimate in miraculous?

how strange is your creed and nonsensical!

best,
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IAmZamzam
04-01-2013, 09:41 PM
Your response proves that you have completely ignored everything we've said, ccc. If you had not read any of the posts above it then it would have been no different than if you had. At this point you're just choosing not to get it.
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ccc
04-01-2013, 09:44 PM
Was God, at any time, dumb, deaf, or empty from any word or spirit?
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جوري
04-01-2013, 09:47 PM
Not sure where you get these inane non-questions from? Why don't you simply bring out your bottom line and try to inject as much logic and as little by way of logorrhea!

best,
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ccc
04-01-2013, 09:54 PM
first, it is a bigger miracle that in the created world somebody is borne contrary to the laws of the created world than the fact that the world was created, because in this God shows his power more. We all know that he can create, but the great miracle is that without destroying the world he can give to us more than only the world and its laws, he can give us the fulfillment of the words, he can give himself to the world, this is more than just creating.
secondly, my question is clear, so answer as i answered: Was God, at any time, dumb, deaf, or empty from any word or spirit?
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جوري
04-01-2013, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by ccc
first, it is a bigger miracle that in the created world somebody is borne contrary to the laws of the created world than the fact that the world was created, because in this God shows his power more. We all know that he can create, but the great miracle is that without destroying the world he can give to us more than only the world and its laws, he can give us the fulfillment of the words, he can give himself to the world, this is more than just creating.
secondly, my question is clear, so answer as i answered: Was God, at any time, dumb, deaf, or empty from any word or spirit?

The creation of heavens and earth is more intense a creation than man. And if we're going to go by degree of miracle then frankly as we collectively stated. Adam was even more miraculous for he wasn't simply missing a father but also a mother. As for what sort of god you worship and what he's lacking or missing. That's an answer only you can provide. We don't subscribe to your brand of fairy tales and find the premise faulty. We don't start off with a god with human traits, and since you do I guess you can make him into any kinda of god you want, deaf, human, dead, suckling, whatever... it is your problem really not ours!

best,
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ccc
04-01-2013, 10:24 PM
you judge the miracle of adam's creation after the laws of the world, but the miracle is also something that contradicts the laws of the world, and creation does not contradict anythying from the world as long as did not exist any world before, but the great miracle is the one which has the power to both respect and contradict the created world, exactly because this is indeed more than we can expect. miracle is both positive and negative, because it can not be in itself contradiction, because it would loose it's value. The miracle' s value is given by the level in which he shows the divinity, and the essence of miracle is to show to us god's power. To recreate the world is more than create the world, because it shows more the power of God over the creation at a level that is not limited at man's expectations. God showed that his power has not limits, and His infinity is not limited to what we can think about it
By the way, you did not answer my question

I want to repeat that i am not interested in arguments like"in quran it is said that Jesus is too a servant of God" In Christianity he is a servant too". I do not think that mohamed in quran gives me the proof that Jesus is God, i know his intention of showing that he is not more than a human or a prophet. But i ask why even Mohamed gives him this name of God's Word only to him. I must tell you that i do not find any kind of prove that Mohamed was more than a man that did not understand Christianity and he, because was unable to receive its essence, made fairy tales which tried to explain the facts how he was able to understand. He did not even knew the bible good. That is why i ask simple "Was God, at any time, dumb, deaf, or empty from any word or spirit?" because i think that mohamed did not understand the meaning of the words he was using and he only used them like people do when they use a name without its meaning. The answer to this question shows that it is self contradiction in the muslim explanation and that mohamed did not know what he was talking about.
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YusufNoor
04-01-2013, 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by ccc
"Thus, Jesus (as) was only a Messenger, and only His Word, and a Spirit, which was gifted from Allah to him."
Wow, so you can take a part from god and put it in a creature. You can take God's Word from Him
can you please provide Surah and ayah number please. i am skeptical of your translation

Originally Posted by ccc
Was God, at any time, dumb, deaf, or empty from any word or spirit?
if you are referring to The One True God, Allah Subhanna wa Ta'aala. the Raab of creation, well of course not. don't be silly.

HOWEVER, if you are referring to what you, as a "Christian" call god, well then why not? ---

so why do you ask us silly questions, when it is you that has some rather peculiar notions of God?

strange lad, indeed...

peace
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ccc
04-01-2013, 11:52 PM
no. i only want to say that through Word's God I understand The uncreated word. It is Surah 4.171
another question: Is God's Word Creator or created?
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Muhammad
04-02-2013, 12:06 AM
Greetings ccc,

Your question has also been addressed here:

Originally Posted by - Qatada -
Hey. :)


Let's start off with what Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) said as stated in the Qur'an;
"He ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;"

[Qur'an 19: 30]

There is no explicit verse like that in the Bible whatsoever when the christians claim that Jesus is supposedly God. Whereas it is crystal clear in the Qur'an that Jesus son of Mary is saying that he is God's slave and prophet.


The article focuses alot on the titles given to Prophet Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him), from the Qur'an. What the author doesn't realise is that many Prophets are given many names, i.e. Prophet Abraham is known as the Khaleel [close friend] of Allah/God, Prophet Moses is given a title of the one who spoke to Allah directly, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is given many titles, some even say that he has 99 names or more i.e. Khaleel [close friend] of Allah, AbdAllah [slave of Allah], RasulAllah [Messenger of Allah], Basheer [giver of glad-tidings], Nazeer [the warner] etc.


The article posted above however focuses on two main names which the person wants to take out of context, and alot of christian missionaries have purposelly - throughout history - used them to make people stray from the clear understanding which is given in the Qur'an itself, and the arabic language - in which the Qur'an is revealed in.



They are:

Kalimatuhu : God's Word (Ali Imran 3:45 )
Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;

[Qur'an Yusuf Ali translation 3:45]

What was that word? We know the Qur'an explains itself, so let's take a look at what Allah says in another part of the Qur'an:
Verily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was.

[Qur'an 3: 59]


So Allah is giving us a similitude, He is telling us that Jesus son of Mary was a word from Him by simply saying "Be!" - Mary got impregnated without the influence of a male impregnating her. Which shows the power of Allah/God, that He is able to do all things, and it clears Mary (peace be upon her) of the evil charges she was accused of.


This is proven through other verses from Qur'an;
Verily, when He [Allah] intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is!

So glory to Him in Whose hands is the dominion of all things: and to Him will ye be all brought back.

[Qur'an 36: 82-3]

And when Mary was given glad tidings of a son, so was Prophet Zakariyya, and guess what, he was given glad tidings of a son even though he was of old age when his wife was barren (unable to have children!)
At that time Zakariya (Zachariya) invoked his Lord, saying: "O my Lord! Grant me from You, a good offspring. You are indeed the All-Hearer of invocation."

Then the angels called him, while he was standing in prayer in Al-Mihrab (a praying place or a private room), (saying): "Allah gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John), confirming (believing in) the Word from Allah [i.e. the creation of 'Iesa (Jesus) , the Word from Allah ("Be!" - and he was!)], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women, a Prophet, from among the righteous."

He said: "O my Lord! How can I have a son when I am very old, and my wife is barren?" Allah said: "Thus Allah does what He wills."

[Qur'an 3: 39-40]


So if the christians claim that Jesus son of Mary was God simply because he was a word of "Be!" from God, then know that a miracle of Allah/God also took place for the birth of Prophet Yahya [John the Baptist.] And you as a christian know that Prophet John is not God, similarly Jesus son of Mary is not. They are both the slaves of God, who He has created. And know that it is only God, the One who created you, Jesus son of Mary, his mother, and us all Who is alone worthy of all worship.



The second controversial one christians try to take out of context is the:


Ruhuminhu or The spirit of Allah (Al Nesa 4:171 ) - The more accurate translation for this is Ruh [spirit] min [from] hu [Him]


What they don't realise is that anything which is special or favoured by Allah/God is known as Allah's. Let me explain this abit better, the Sacred Masjid [mosque] in Makkah is known as Baitullah [the house of Allah/God], yet this does not mean that Allah lives in that house. No. What it does mean is that this place is special, it is favored by Allah and therefore is known as the house of Allah i.e. it belongs to Allah - it is His.

This is exactly the same with the creation of Allah, i.e. the Messengers of Allah are Allah's creation and property, and they are sent from/by Allah. This does not mean that they are part of Allah. Similar can be said about the angels. And similarly, the spirits [Ruh] which He sends. Since Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) is highly ranked and favored by Allah, He honors him by stating that Jesus son of Mary is His property, His spirit (which He [Allah] owns.) And this is a part of the arabic language.

You can read more about this issue and linguistics here insha Allah [God willing];
http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets...a-created.html


Other names like Maseeh [Messiah] (translated as Christ in Greek) are words which alot of people don't truly understand, Maseeh (arabic) [Messiah] comes from the root word 'to wipe' - And we know that when Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) would wipe someone ill, they would get better - BY THE WILL OF ALLAH as has been told in the Qur'an over and over again [when his miracles are mentioned.] Similarly, we do not say that any other Prophet is God if he has done any miracles, since it is basic belief that nothing happens except by Allah's leave/will. So to say that Jesus son of Mary is God simply because he did miracles isn't sufficient as a proof that this person is God. Rather, it can show that this person is either loved by Allah and therefore Allah has given him/her miracles by His leave, or that he/she is an evildoer and doing magic. In the case of the Prophets of God, we believe without a doubt that Allah is pleased with them and this is why He has bestowed upon them miracles and signs, to strengthen those who believe in faith.

And Allah knows best.

Peace.
Also:

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
In the Qur'an Jesus is called "Kalimatullah," a word FROM God. The Qur'an is called "Kallamullah," the Word OF God. (Ali Ataie, Voice for Islam)
As for "RuhAllah" the Qur'an actually says that Jesus is a ruhun minhu a soul from God. Before you jump to conclusions, read verse 38:72 where the same phrase is used for Prophet Adam and verse 32:9 where it is used for every human being! Now read verse 66:12 and you will see that it is used the same way for Prophet Jesus pbuh.
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ccc
04-02-2013, 12:26 AM
i again must ask my question. I ask: Why only Jesus has that name in the Quran? If that mosqee is named as it is named, it does not have relevance. God can not have a house from eternity.. But, of course there is a certain reason for that name. I also disagree if you say that the fact that it has that certain name does not make it special, if that name is unique. About the name word of god or even god's word, there is a different discussion, at another level: You said that God's Word and Spirit is from eternity, now we obviously have a different discussion. My question has become:
Is God's Word Creator or created?
Reply

جوري
04-02-2013, 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by ccc
Why only Jesus has that name in the Quran
He wasn't!
have you been reading any of the replies given to you here?
'Word' is otherwise a command given by God, the same as given to everything in creation to be!

best,
Reply

ccc
04-02-2013, 01:01 AM
it is a great difference between saying "Then He made him complete and breathed into him of His spirit" and " The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul".
"There are two key factors that the Muslims are only too inclined to overlook: the application of the title to Jesus alone and the fact that he is clearly described in Surah 4.171 as "His Word", meaning not a Word from God alone but the Word of God."

Jesus is the only one named The Word of God, Adam is not
Also, the fact that God gave life to the people is different of man being his word, because if god had word from eternity we would be from eternity and part of god
Reply

جوري
04-02-2013, 01:09 AM
Originally Posted by ccc
it is a great difference between saying "Then He made him complete and breathed into him of His spirit" and " The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul".
"There are two key factors that the Muslims are only too inclined to overlook: the application of the title to Jesus alone and the fact that he is clearly described in Surah 4.171 as "His Word", meaning not a Word from God alone but the Word of God."

Jesus is the only one named The Word of God", Adam is not
unfortunately for you, you don't speak Arabic, have no idea of the parsing, etymology of words or semantics in general of the original tongue.. So it makes you a very poor at debating that is if we go by language alone and not logic which you're completely lacking at any rate unlike your religion and your language which differs from what Jesus spoke (btw what language did Jesus speak?) so many different opinions in by so many alleged 'scholars' ; Much of what he has said is lost to you in the translation if not actually in the gaps of time. Not the case in Islam. The Quran is the very word of God..ah, there's another 'word' of God what do you know.. should we worship the Quran? Many things in the Quran are the word of God and not just Jesus.. you really need to cross that gyrus and either be open to the fact that you're not only completely wrong but really need to expand your horizon a little and widen that confidence interval to include other possibilities. Especially when folks have laid out those possibilities using the same book.
You've failed to convince us from logic, failed to convince us from the bible and I assure you, you're failing miserably with your approach to the Quran.

best,
Reply

YusufNoor
04-02-2013, 05:00 AM
Originally Posted by ccc
no. i only want to say that through Word's God I understand The uncreated word. It is Surah 4.171
another question: Is God's Word Creator or created?
first of all, you asked a question and then specifically told us NOT to answer it! :uhwhat

let's look at the whole verse, shall we:

Sahih International
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
first off, you are referring to an ayat where the Qur'an IS SPECIFICALLY addressing the issue of Christians turning Jesus, pbuh, into a god, and you are trying to say that it does the opposite by calling Jesus, pbuh, the "word" of God. here, you are deliberately misstating the usage of the word, word; you actually seem to be confusing it with what the unknown author of the gospel, later attributed to John, the Greek word logos. now, the Greek word logos enters our history from the Philosopher Plato. it is a pagan concept of an "intermediary" between the "prime mover' and his creation, then enters into to world of Diasporan Jews through the works of Philo. Philo, being situated in the Pagan/Greek world, adopts Platonism. as he sees it, "who is Plato but Moses speaking Greek?" [A New History of Early Christianity by Charles Freeman, 2009 Paperback, page 68.] as Pauline Christianity spread, Christians distanced themselves from Judaism. (perhaps you should study this?) the Qur'an uses the Arabic word, kalimah. kalimah means "word, speech, address, utterance" [Vol 1, page 321 of the 2003 softcover version of A WORD FOR WORD MEANING OF THE QUR'AN by Muhammad Mohar Ali, Jam'iyat Ihyaa' Minhaaj Al-Sunnah]

so, the verse could just as easily read, in part:

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His utterance which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers.
read it that way to alleviate your confusion, as well as to destroy your argument.

now, according to the Maariful Qur'an Vol 2, pp 636, 636, Imam al Ghazzali explains the 2 factors required for the birth of a child, are 1) sperm and 2) the saying of the word "be". in the case of Isa, pbuh, ONLY the later was used and this is why it is mentioned in the Qur'an.
http://www.kalamullah.com/maariful-quran.html


for your second question, the term "logos" is not in the Qur'an as a title for Jesus, pbuh. thus, your question is moot.

capiche?

peace
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-02-2013, 07:05 PM
This thread is officially becoming an endless series of ignored explanations followed by the very same questions again. What point is there is any of us continuing?
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Hulk
04-02-2013, 09:18 PM
Please stop trying to find excuses for worshipping creation.
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Ahmad H
04-03-2013, 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by ccc
"Thus, Jesus (as) was only a Messenger, and only His Word, and a Spirit, which was gifted from Allah to him."
Wow, so you can take a part from god and put it in a creature. You can take God's Word from Him
It seems you didn't understand, when you give a gift to someone, does it mean that you took a piece of your flesh and gave it to them? Not at all. When something is gifted, then you did not take it from that person, but the gift is GIVEN to you by that person out of their own sheer good will towards you.

We do not fully understand this metaphor of what the Kalimat truly is or what the Spirit is. Of the Spirit, humans only have a little knowledge on it (17:85). And as for Allah's Kalimat, I have no idea what it truly constitutes. All I know is what the Holy Qur'an has said. Until I have learned what the Tafsirs said on this in large part, I cannot tell anyone what it is since I can't interpret this on my own. It may be that you misunderstood because you have a preconceived notion of what the "Word" and "Spirit" means. That is understandable. But, the interpretation of this is different in the Holy Qur'an. I suggest you read my above detailed post because I gave you the multiple meanings of what "spirit" (Ruh, in Arabic) has. Also, I showed the insignificance of a single Word from Allah, and that Allah could dispense with infinite Words if He wishes to do so. One Word is not the most significant matter in the whole universe above all else as the Bible interprets it.
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MustafaMc
04-03-2013, 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by ccc
Is God's Word Creator or created?
Neither, and I advise you regarding this approach, "Some of those who are Jews change words from their context..." Qur'an 4:46 Do not try to twist the Qur'an to say what it does not. Jesus is not Allah (swt) and neither is he the Son of Allah.

Originally Posted by ccc
Was God, at any time, dumb, deaf, or empty from any word or spirit?
You are using an absurdity to try to make a twisted point, and I will not dignify such a question with an answer. However, I will quote the ayat in full that you refer to:

"(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah gives you glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah). He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous." Qur'an 3:45-46

"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter anything concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorns His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him" Qur'an 4:171-172 The miraculous birth of Jesus and his speaking as an infant to defend the honor of Mary and other references to him among the righteous clearly indicates that Jesus was indeed special. With regards to his being a word conveyed to Mary from Allah and a spirit from Him, I don not know the full meaning; however, that does not put into question that he was a servant of Allah which clearly illustrates that he was not other than a Prophet, Messenger and Servant of Allah in the same manner as Muhammad (saaws).
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ccc
04-12-2013, 08:05 PM
so there are things that are neither created or not created?
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جوري
04-12-2013, 09:12 PM
words aren't organisms perhaps you need to work on your linguistic skills!

best,
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Hulk
04-12-2013, 09:17 PM
I think he doesn't understand that God is the source of everything in existence, still trying to find excuses to worship creation alongside Creator.
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ccc
04-13-2013, 07:06 AM
i do not say that words are organism, but everything is created in this world, including our minds for instance and our words. But I ask, is the word of God created? Is it separate from God and there are more Gods? Is it like our word which comes into being and passes or it is eternal? What kind of thing is the word of God?
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جوري
04-13-2013, 09:22 AM
A word that comes from God is a command to be fulfilled not another god or the same god playing tricks. Not sure where you learned logic but it doesn't matter what sort of word play you descend to - what you propose is absurd!


Best,
Reply

Woodrow
04-13-2013, 01:08 PM
I think we need to go back to the misunderstanding ccc seems to be having.


Originally Posted by ccc
it is a great difference between saying "Then He made him complete and breathed into him of His spirit" and " The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul".
"There are two key factors that the Muslims are only too inclined to overlook: the application of the title to Jesus alone and the fact that he is clearly described in Surah 4.171 as "His Word", meaning not a Word from God alone but the Word of God."

Jesus is the only one named The Word of God, Adam is not
Also, the fact that God gave life to the people is different of man being his word, because if god had word from eternity we would be from eternity and part of god
He has separated His word from the phrase and is attempting to turn it into an entity. It seems he is trying to read as saying "the son of Mary, was His word" Reading it as if "his word" was a being.

I do not know if he is capable of understanding that the meaning is " The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of His word " His Word being Allaah(swt)'s word or the Injil. ie Jesus(as) carried and delivered the Message which was the Injill, Allaah(swt)'s word. aka His word


I do not know if my explanation will help as it seems everybody has already done a very good job at explaining. Sometimes we need to simply accept the fact some people are self blinded and will never see, in which case all we can do is shrug our shoulders, wish them well and move on with our lives, trusting that Allaah(swt) will lead all who desire to be led. We neither can nor have the right to even think we can make some one see that which they desire not to see.
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MustafaMc
04-13-2013, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by ccc
But I ask, is the word of God created? Is it separate from God and there are more Gods? Is it like our word which comes into being and passes or it is eternal?
I believe that Brother Woodrow hit the nail on the head with:
Originally Posted by Woodrow
He has separated His word from the phrase and is attempting to turn it into an entity.
The critical issue is what the word "WORD" means to different people as in, "Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a WORD from Him." Some interpret this as being literally equivalent to Jesus based on their unconditional acceptance of, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." as part of the Bible which is accepted in toto as the revealed Word of God. Some may see WORD as meaning literally the Arabic word for 'be' as in, "He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was."

However, our understanding of language and words are as a means of communication with others. The question is, "To whom was Allah (swt) trying to communicate with in saying "Be!"?" Did 'someone' need to hear the word "Be!" from Allah (swt) for Adam or Jesus come into existence? If we think critically we may understand that WORD in this case does not mean Jesus as being eternally coexistent with Allah (swt) (astaghfir Allah), or perhaps not even as the literal expression of an Arabic spoken word, "Be!". My understanding is that WORD here means the expression of a command from Allah (in a way that behooves His majesty) to bring into existence what has been willed to exist by Allah (swt). I rather think that the speech of Allah (swt) is quite unlike our human speech as is His seeing and His hearing.

I could be entirely wrong in what I wrote for Allah knows best the meaning of 'a word from Him'.
Reply

Ahmad H
04-14-2013, 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by Hulk
I think he doesn't understand that God is the source of everything in existence, still trying to find excuses to worship creation alongside Creator.
I could swear that I answered this question a long time ago. It seems you did not understand the words in verse 4:171. I will state the relevant portion for you once again:

4:171 "...Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary..."

In other words, "and His Word which He conveyed to Maryam". This is saying that he was the fulfillment of the Word which He sent down to Maryam about the description of what her son would be like. This is explained in two places in the Holy Qur'an, and in fact, these same signs which he was sent down with were fulfilled in his lifetime when he was on earth. He was ONLY a Messenger of God. No more, no less.

So to answer the point to which you are trying to lead towards, no, there is no such thing as someone being the uncreated Word of God. As for the Qur'an being uncreated or created, that was a large debate amongst many Muslim scholars before. I personally do not know the answer to this, so I will not speculate since I am not a scholar. But the Holy Qur'an was sent down from Allah to us. It does not become personified, and neither does the Qur'an ever say that Allah's Words become personified.

As for the Words of Allah, it says in the Holy Qur'an:

18:109 Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

And,

31:27 And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing): for Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.

So what does it matter, even if you wished for Jesus (as) to be just one single Word of God? A single Word does not match up to the fact that God has inexhaustible reserve of words. That just completely shatters such a view in my opinion. If Allah personified just one Word, then it is only a single one out of all the Words He could speak. Essentially, one out of infinity. This completely shatters the Christian concept of Jesus' being special. Even so, this case is merely hypothetical. It is not true in reality. Again, he was the fulfillment of the Word of Allah given to his mother about his coming.
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MustafaMc
04-14-2013, 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
I could swear that I answered this question a long time ago. It seems you did not understand the words in verse 4:171.
Assalamu alaikum, I don't see how this is relevant to what Brother Hulk wrote. I think it is addressed to ccc.
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
In other words, "and His Word which He conveyed to Maryam". This is saying that he was the fulfillment of the Word which He sent down to Maryam about the description of what her son would be like.
I have not seen this interpretation before. Can you reference the source?
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Ahmad H
04-14-2013, 01:41 PM
As salamu 'alaykum Mustafa MC,

Yes, I took that translation (thus, interpretation) from the website "The Quranic Arabic Corpus". They do word-by-word translation of the whole Qur'an. It is the best way to read the Qur'an and know what the sentence is saying based on each individual word.

The specific page was:
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.j...er=4&verse=171

Check it out.
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Ahmad H
04-14-2013, 01:45 PM
Sorry. I should add that the part in which I said he was the fulfilment of the Word which was sent to Mary, is mentioned in the Holy Qur'an.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir is, in fact, more clear on this. It specifically mentions the instance where Jibril (as) says to Maryam about Allah's Command in which He says "Be!" and it is. It was at that point in which Hazrat Isa (as) began to be conceived. This is none other than the dialogue which went on between Maryam and Jibril (as):

"(Al-Masih `Isa, son of Maryam, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from ﴿created by﴾ Him;) `Isa is only one of Allah's servants and one of His creatures. Allah said to him, `Be', and he was, and He sent him as a Messenger. `Isa was a word from Allah that He bestowed on Maryam, meaning He created him with the word `Be' that He sent with Jibril to Maryam. Jibril blew the life of `Isa into Maryam by Allah's leave, and `Isa came to existence as a result. This incident was in place of the normal conception between man and woman that results in children. This is why `Isa was a word and a Ruh (spirit) created by Allah, as he had no father to conceive him. Rather, he came to existence through the word that Allah uttered, `Be,' and he was, through the life that Allah sent with Jibril."
(Tafsir Ibn Kathir, under verse 4:171)

Salaams.
Reply

Woodrow
04-14-2013, 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Sorry. I should add that the part in which I said he was the fulfilment of the Word which was sent to Mary, is mentioned in the Holy Qur'an.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir is, in fact, more clear on this. It specifically mentions the instance where Jibril (as) says to Maryam about Allah's Command in which He says "Be!" and it is. It was at that point in which Hazrat Isa (as) began to be conceived. This is none other than the dialogue which went on between Maryam and Jibril (as):

"(Al-Masih `Isa, son of Maryam, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from ﴿created by﴾ Him;) `Isa is only one of Allah's servants and one of His creatures. Allah said to him, `Be', and he was, and He sent him as a Messenger. `Isa was a word from Allah that He bestowed on Maryam, meaning He created him with the word `Be' that He sent with Jibril to Maryam. Jibril blew the life of `Isa into Maryam by Allah's leave, and `Isa came to existence as a result. This incident was in place of the normal conception between man and woman that results in children. This is why `Isa was a word and a Ruh (spirit) created by Allah, as he had no father to conceive him. Rather, he came to existence through the word that Allah uttered, `Be,' and he was, through the life that Allah sent with Jibril."
(Tafsir Ibn Kathir, under verse 4:171)

Salaams.
Before any one gets confused. That is not saying the word BE became Prophet Isa(as). Jesus(Isa) is not a word, never was a word and never will be a word. Be means to exist. Allaah(swt) willed for him to exist through the mere command for him to be.
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MustafaMc
04-14-2013, 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Yes, I took that translation (thus, interpretation) from the website "The Quranic Arabic Corpus". They do word-by-word translation of the whole Qur'an.
Jazak Allahu khayran, I book marked the page.
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facethetruth
09-03-2013, 05:30 PM
First we need to understand that the Quran in Arabic which is a very powerful language and not all words are used as they sound. Forexampel in the U.S they say lets hit the road, if somebody out there would say What??!

The same thing here in the Quran it is clear that Allah said Jesus is like Adam he created him from sand and told him be so existed. Jesus is the word of God which is "Be" because God said be and Jesus was created in the same way Adam did. For all other human we where born after the whole sperm and egg thing.

For the spirit Jeber was named in the Quran in the same way which means the spirit that belongs to Allah not Allah spirit, to make it closer I can say my hand it could mean my actual hand or something or a hand toy that I posses.
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facethetruth
09-03-2013, 05:30 PM
Jeber* I meant Gebrail
Reply

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