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Gintoki
04-08-2013, 07:39 PM
Hello.
I was born in a muslim family,they have a strong belief in God.I once had a strong belief,used to pray and such. I don't know why i had a strong belief,maybe i was a kid and believed everything easily,but i once saw 'Allah' written in the sky in clouds form. I still think to this day i was just imagining things,but i know that's the not true because apparently i was out that time,and many people were like taking pictures of it. Then i stopped praying,Mainly because I'm a lazy person.( was like 10 around that time.)2 or 3 years ago i started thinking 'what if' there's no God. I don't really know why i started thinking like that,but just so it happen. As a year passed by,then i questioned that if the muslims are indeed wrong? Maybe there's no God at all? What if the religions are just a fairy tale made by people? What if there's no heaven or hell? What if there's no afterlife and once you die,it's the end of everything.It is said that God is nice,but explain the suffering in this world like murder and rape. I know some people are going to say this life is a test. But my point is does God enjoy these things? If he was kind He wouldn't let have let these things happen now would He?During this time,i was also in the phase of depression. Last year later had a panic attack while masturbating and my anxiety started since then. Some of that anxiety is about if Islam is true or not,also some other things. Which made me questioned more about my religion. So i guess I'm a Atheist/Agnostic at the moment. I would wish to believe there's a God and an afterlife but it's hard to believe so. That's enough of the back story about me.

Now my problems with Islam which i would like to discuss.
First thing first,How do you Muslims know that your religion is the correct one? They are many religions out there,and they think they are right and such. Some Muslims are going to say that Islam is the correct one and Quran is a miracle. Allah send signs,the scientific evidence and etc. Anyone would research their religion and find that their religion is correct. According to what i read on the internet,some atheists are saying that these scientific evidence was long discovered before islam by the greeks.

It's unfair for non-muslims to be born in a non-muslim family. I already know some people are going to say that Allah sends them signs about Quran in some way. But the fact ismsome are going to ignore it as they are already brainwashed from their family that their current religion is correct. Why would they even give a chance to islam when they are already brainwashed? Or some people might not even heard about Quran in their entire life. One of the points why i think Quran is man-made.( No offence to you muslims.)

Even believing in Angels and the devils is harder. Devil whispers in our ears to make us do bad deeds? Really?


Secondly, the Adam and Eve story. So the world was created because Adam ate the forbidden apple.......Seriously? No matter how you look at it,it sounds like a some fairy tale story similar to Santa Claus or unocrns,of course to us non-believers...Some people are going to bring up the arguement that where did we humans come from? To Muslims it's Adam and Eve. But as my counter-arguement,one word 'Evolution'. Atleast that's what atheists believe. Even the apes and humans DNA are 98% the same. Science has proven that we can't have come from Adam and Eve. A while ago i even read an article of old skeletons skull structure being the same as apes. Don't tell me it's false or i will facepalm myself so hard my nose breaks. Even some scientists believe that's there's a 50% chance there's no God,if you research into the creation of universe,there's a chance that world was made by a mere coincidence.

Thirdly,the concept of hell. This one is disturbing me alot. So half of the population was made to be roasted in hell? Eternal hell for not being a Muslim? Then maybe God should have us more proofs if He truly loved us,that is if He exists. According to some comments i read here,It's offensive to God for not believing him with all the clear proofs send. Well,if He was all-loving he wouldn't want people to burn in hell and that too eternally. In daily life If a person was to get burned on anywhere on the part of his body,he would be in pain. He can't survive a day without the pain. But eternal hell? A person would go insane. No normal unbeliever deserves that kind of punishment. But maybe those people who liked murdering and raping people deserve it. But normal unbelievers? No. But this contradicts the nature of God. It is said according to you Muslims,that he is the most merciful and kind. But that doesn't seem like that to me. Cause if he was he wouldn't make half of the population JUST to burn in hell. And Muslims are not in majority in the world.

A square circle is impossible because it contradicts it's very nature. A square has four sides,a circle has infinite. God is impossible because He contradicts His very nature. God is described as fair and just,but creates infinite punishment for finite sins. This is a pretty and vengeful God. God is described as infinitely loving,but he allows millionns of children to starve every day. He has the power to stop it,but He does nothing. Again life is a test? Really? So this all is a game to Him and watch us suffer as His entertainment?

Another question,if there's an atheist who died at the age of 17.(My friend is at her dying bed)Would she burn in hell? She could have reverted to Islam.

I listened to many Dr. Zakir Naik lectures and some part of me get convinced. But after few days my mind returns to the atheist/agnostic mind set.

Another question, after this world ends,another world would emerge,and process will continue with new people....this process will keep on repeating...this doesn't make sense.

I said it before and i will say it again, I wish to believe there's a God but i find it hard to believe. But I'm hoping someone can convince me and show me the truth.

Will update thread if anything new comes to my mind.
Thanks.
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YusufNoor
04-08-2013, 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Hello.
I was born in a muslim family,they have a strong belief in God.I once had a strong belief,used to pray and such. I don't know why i had a strong belief,maybe i was a kid and believed everything easily,but i once saw 'Allah' written in the sky in clouds form. I still think to this day i was just imagining things,but i know that's the not true because apparently i was out that time,and many people were like taking pictures of it. Then i stopped praying,Mainly because I'm a lazy person.( was like 10 around that time.)2 or 3 years ago i started thinking 'what if' there's no God. I don't really know why i started thinking like that,but just so it happen. As a year passed by,then i questioned that if the muslims are indeed wrong? Maybe there's no God at all? What if the religions are just a fairy tale made by people? What if there's no heaven or hell? What if there's no afterlife and once you die,it's the end of everything.It is said that God is nice,but explain the suffering in this world like murder and rape. I know some people are going to say this life is a test.

yes, the concept is that life is a test, but most of the harm in life seems to come from others failing their tests.

But my point is does God enjoy these things? If he was kind He wouldn't let have let these things happen now would He?

why would you think that Allah enjoys it? we'd all be irate if we didn't have free will,yet everyone likes to look at moments and declare that Allah should have intervened. to me, that is illogical.


During this time,i was also in the phase of depression. Last year later had a panic attack while masturbating and my anxiety started since then. Some of that anxiety is about if Islam is true or not,also some other things. Which made me questioned more about my religion. So i guess I'm a Atheist/Agnostic at the moment. I would wish to believe there's a God and an afterlife but it's hard to believe so. That's enough of the back story about me.

Now my problems with Islam which i would like to discuss.
First thing first,How do you Muslims know that your religion is the correct one? They are many religions out there,and they think they are right and such. Some Muslims are going to say that Islam is the correct one and Quran is a miracle. Allah send signs,the scientific evidence and etc. Anyone would research their religion and find that their religion is correct. According to what i read on the internet,some atheists are saying that these scientific evidence was long discovered before islam by the greeks.

Tawhid is the foundation of Islam, not the works of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle or Pythagoras. you can however, find much of their thinking interwoven with Christianity. Philo is said to have remarked that Plato is simply Moses in Greek. the problem with the Pagan (and atheist may be more appropriate) Philosophers is that they were trying, and trying really hard, to "figure out" the truths about the Universe. the only real way to understand Allah would be by direct revelation, so the Prophets are of utmost import here.

It's unfair for non-muslims to be born in a non-muslim family. I already know some people are going to say that Allah sends them signs about Quran in some way. But the fact ismsome are going to ignore it as they are already brainwashed from their family that their current religion is correct. Why would they even give a chance to islam when they are already brainwashed? Or some people might not even heard about Quran in their entire life. One of the points why i think Quran is man-made.( No offence to you muslims.)

if we are the signs for non-Muslims, then perhaps that is why they will get a second chance. cuz we kinda...suck...

Even believing in Angels and the devils is harder. Devil whispers in our ears to make us do bad deeds? Really?

no, listening to them does! ;D


Secondly, the Adam and Eve story. So the world was created because Adam ate the forbidden apple.......Seriously? No matter how you look at it,it sounds like a some fairy tale story similar to Santa Claus or unocrns,of course to us non-believers...Some people are going to bring up the arguement that where did we humans come from? To Muslims it's Adam and Eve. But as my counter-arguement,one word 'Evolution'. Atleast that's what atheists believe. Even the apes and humans DNA are 98% the same. Science has proven that we can't have come from Adam and Eve. A while ago i even read an article of old skeletons skull structure being the same as apes. Don't tell me it's false or i will facepalm myself so hard my nose breaks. Even some scientists believe that's there's a 50% chance there's no God,if you research into the creation of universe,there's a chance that world was made by a mere coincidence.

Thirdly,the concept of hell. This one is disturbing me alot. So half of the population was made to be roasted in hell? Eternal hell for not being a Muslim? Then maybe God should have us more proofs if He truly loved us,that is if He exists. According to some comments i read here,It's offensive to God for not believing him with all the clear proofs send. Well,if He was all-loving he wouldn't want people to burn in hell and that too eternally. In daily life If a person was to get burned on anywhere on the part of his body,he would be in pain. He can't survive a day without the pain. But eternal hell? A person would go insane. No normal unbeliever deserves that kind of punishment. But maybe those people who liked murdering and raping people deserve it. But normal unbelievers? No. But this contradicts the nature of God. It is said according to you Muslims,that he is the most merciful and kind. But that doesn't seem like that to me. Cause if he was he wouldn't make half of the population JUST to burn in hell. And Muslims are not in majority in the world.

Allah is the Most Merciful, i bet there will be more Muslims in the hellfire than non-Muslims.

A square circle is impossible because it contradicts it's very nature. A square has four sides,a circle has infinite. God is impossible because He contradicts His very nature. God is described as fair and just,but creates infinite punishment for finite sins. This is a pretty and vengeful God. God is described as infinitely loving,but he allows millionns of children to starve every day. He has the power to stop it,but He does nothing. Again life is a test? Really? So this all is a game to Him and watch us suffer as His entertainment?

in my mind, i see that Allah should override our freewill and just make us robots. we CHOOSE not to obey, yet want Allah to save us from the fruits of our disbelief.


Another question,if there's an atheist who died at the age of 17.(My friend is at her dying bed)Would she burn in hell? She could have reverted to Islam.

I listened to many Dr. Zakir Naik lectures and some part of me get convinced. But after few days my mind returns to the atheist/agnostic mind set.


you can listen to Dr Naik if you want, personally, i don't see the benefit. i would take about ZERO amount of fiqh from him. he is just a daiyee.

Another question, after this world ends,another world would emerge,and process will continue with new people....this process will keep on repeating...this doesn't make sense.

I said it before and i will say it again, I wish to believe there's a God but i find it hard to believe. But I'm hoping someone can convince me and show me the truth.

Will update thread if anything new comes to my mind.
Thanks.
if you are interested, i could post some, what i find, dazzlingly awesome lectures on Tawhid. being ignorant of Arabic, Dr Bilal Philips is my favorite instructor on Tawhid. though he can sure make some bloopers now and then.

for character, i simply love Mufti Menk from Zimbabwe. he's Hanafi because of his Asian background, but in Africa he teaches the local Shafii'e mudhab.

for history, i love a dude who even wants it known that he is not a scholar! Dr Bashar Shala is a neurologist/cardiologist who spends Sunday nights teaching in the Masjjid. and talk about prepared! he's numero uno in my book, simply adore his lectures!

May Allah make it easy on you!

ma salaama
Reply

Gintoki
04-08-2013, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
if you are interested, i could post some, what i find, dazzlingly awesome lectures on Tawhid. being ignorant of Arabic, Dr Bilal Philips is my favorite instructor on Tawhid. though he can sure make some bloopers now and then.

for character, i simply love Mufti Menk from Zimbabwe. he's Hanafi because of his Asian background, but in Africa he teaches the local Shafii'e mudhab.

for history, i love a dude who even wants it known that he is not a scholar! Dr Bashar Shala is a neurologist/cardiologist who spends Sunday nights teaching in the Masjjid. and talk about prepared! he's numero uno in my book, simply adore his lectures!

May Allah make it easy on you!

ma salaama
Yes please do that. But i think the lectures wont help me at the moment because the hell concept is disturbing me alot. I would appreciate if you can clear that doubt of mine.
Reply

NjmYqlb
04-08-2013, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
I said it before and i will say it again, I wish to believe there's a God but i find it hard to believe. But I'm hoping someone can convince me and show me the truth.
Thanks.
What would it take to convince you? What sort of proof would be enough? No one can fill a cup that is already full. Is your cup already full? Analyze yourself. What is your primary motivation in life at the moment? I was where you are now once long ago, I read a bit of every major religion, astrology and science looking for the an answer. Knowledge only convinced me that faith cannot come from it alone. First requirement to seeking faith is to acknowledge we don't know enough, we can't know enough, we need guidance and God is the owner and source of guidance. Throw away all your conclusions, open your mind then sincerely, honestly, humbly, ask God for guidance, if you are a truthful seeker of faith. Be patient...
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IAmZamzam
04-08-2013, 09:47 PM
1. “How do we know our religion is the correct one?” Boy was Francis Bacon right when he said that plurality in beliefs inclineth a man’s mind to atheism. I don’t know whether to call this argument a gambler’s fallacy or a fallacy of appeal to probability but it kind of amounts to the same, I guess. Just Google those terms and you should get the idea of how what you’re saying begs the question.

Answering even slightly briefly why Islam is correct is kind of impossible for me but since you used to believe, what were your reasons? That’s the more important question, I think.

2. We are judged for our intentions, not for our successes.

3. Devils “whispering” in our ears is not the only kind of bad influence on us, and can’t make us do anything. In fact do we even really know how often it ever happens?

4. That’s funny...mostly it’s believers that I hear promoting the false dilemma of “evolution = atheism”. Personally the subject is of little interest to me. If I absolutely must talk about this with you then maybe I will eventually but it’s such a huge message board cliché that I reached the point years ago where I felt like I was going to pull my hair out if I had to do it even one more time. People nowadays are positively obsessed with evolution. In the old days arguments from design would actually focus on whether the whole world was designed and not bother with trifles like the specific timeframe or with the bloodlines of lifeforms on Earth. Stop and think about it: when was the last time you ever heard anyone describe something as fiction which was written more than a few hundred years ago? The same principle applies to allegory. The older something is the more literally it gets taken. Chronological snobbery is the only reasonable explanation for this. Those ancient Romans must have really believed that the sun was a chariot—never mind that it looks nothing like one. I’ve heard that Maurice Bucaille’s book “The Bible, The Qur’an and Science” is a good resource on this matter but I haven’t read it.

5. No one is actually made to be roasted. Those who are found with even a mustard seed of piety or goodness in them will be transferred to Paradise. Who’s to say that it was already there when they entered?

Look, people usually go through something like this when they're young. The name "Allah" is written everywhere. You just have to keep your eyes peeled.
Reply

Karl
04-09-2013, 12:06 AM
@Gintoki how do you feel about your perceived reality? Do you believe that life the universe and everything is in chaos (atomic disorder) or order? I was looking through the dictionary and I came upon a word aeon or eon, meaning a vast age, eternity, a large division of geological time. A power emanating from the supreme deity, with it's share in the creation and government of the universe.
I suppose people have always believed in God or Gods as the complexities of everything can only be explained that way. Scientists today like to anounce the answers to everything with words and theories, but they are only good at spinning their own delusions of the "truth" a kind of cult of "logic". But they are no better than the idle fantastic ramblings of a young child. Where is the proof? With religion you only need faith. In science you need absolute proof, complete data in every hypothesis otherwise you are basing your answers on belief not facts.
So stick with the Godly instead of the Godless as I have proven it to be logical.
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Ahmad H
04-09-2013, 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Now my problems with Islam which i would like to discuss.
First thing first,How do you Muslims know that your religion is the correct one? They are many religions out there,and they think they are right and such. Some Muslims are going to say that Islam is the correct one and Quran is a miracle. Allah send signs,the scientific evidence and etc. Anyone would research their religion and find that their religion is correct. According to what i read on the internet,some atheists are saying that these scientific evidence was long discovered before islam by the greeks.
First and foremost, you have to look at all religions and see how they perceive the Divine. Which religion would you say, then, has the most clear and truthful manner of looking at the Divine? How is the concept of God established? This is the best criteria to start with before proceeding onto the details on how to recognize the true religion which should be followed. In Islam, there are clearly 99 attributes of Allah. Not one of them, when I have mentioned them to friends of mine, be they Atheist or Agnostic, has ever doubted any of them. All of them are traits of what one would perceive as the All-Powerful God. The human imagination cannot fathom Him, but it can fathom the traits He should have that would satisfy it to recognize the One and All-Powerful one.
As for what these attributes are, the following link is helpful in this regard:
http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles...s_of_allah.asp
It is good since it lists some other attributes as well which are not part of the 99, but if you think about it, fall under at least one of the other attributes. For example, there is "Muhsin" which means "Doer of that which is best". Based upon the principle of Taqwa, which means to have full faith and trust in Allah, then why wouldn't you trust Him that He would deal with you justly, in regards to reward and punishment? This is just one way to understand the many questions you asked.

I honestly think you should reflect over His attributes. Neither one of them contradicts the other ones. If you even think it does for a moment, then reflect over them and read them again. Make a map of them and connect one to the other if you have to and see how they should work with each other. You've only considered two attributes, Rahman and Raheem (Gracious and Merciful), but you have not considered the other 97 when thinking about those. Did you even know that every time you faithfully call upon His attributes it becomes a prayer for you? So if you worry about what He does, that is already faith, and your hope in being secure with Him is already a good occasion for prayer. Prayer overcomes all ills.

As for the scientific miracles in the Qur'an, it is true that most people will deny them. If you honestly think that the Greeks' knowledge was what went into the Holy Qur'an, then why haven't you considered that the people who said this about the Qur'an were ignorant? The Holy Prophet (saw) had no knowledge of Greek texts, neither did his companions. Only a handful of people from Mecca or Medina knew how to read and to write. Not just that, but when you see the analysis of the Arabic of the Qur'an by a scholar, then you are convinced from just one instance about the linguistic miracle. So how does an illiterate man, who could not read or write, write in such succinct and short phrases (and verses), hidden meanings which are not known during his own time but that which the Arabs came to know later? And how contradictory it is that he would have encouraged his own followers to seek knowledge, when he himself knew that the knowledge they sought would be the same which he learned! How contradictory is that! Even still, how did he compose them so well? Even his transmitted sayings are full of so much meaning, that they complement the understanding of the Qur'an better than volumes of commentary on the Qur'an does. Besides, how did he manage to come up with the idea that the universe is expanding, and the earth rotating, while the Greeks did not even accept either of these things? This argument is full of flaws and anyone with the least bit of understanding of what the Qur'an says and the knowledge of the Greeks, knows that this idea of the Qur'ans scientific miracles from the Greeks is completely baseless. Besides, the Greeks' knowledge was outdated compared to a Qur'an which could keep up with 21st century science. If you want to debate this whole idea of the Qur'an's miracles being from the Greeks, I would be glad to go through it with you. As would anyone else here. Having lived in the West all of my life, as a Muslim, I think I would know if the Qur'an's scientific miracles were merely the ideas of the Greeks. This thought had never entered my mind because it is a silly line of thought.

And for personal reasons, I know Islam is correct because I myself have seen Allah in a dream once. And the manner in which I saw Him veiled behind light and the feeling I had was tit for tat how other people have described their seeing Allah in dreams or visions as well. I was very young when I saw it, but I learned about this manner in which others have seen God and they said the same thing. This was years later after seeing it that I found it out. I saw Him as a powerful light, pulsating as if it was as powerful as a nuclear bomb or something. It was almost suffocating. I can still remember that it was powerful until now. This is the kind of overwhelming feeling that I have heard others had in their seeing God as a light. Some have said they saw Him in a wakeful state, and others said they saw Him in a dream.

I hope some of this helped you. I'm not good at writing things in a short space. So I apologize if you don't want to read so much. I will try my best to shorten my answers next time. In sha 'Allah.

May Allah open your heart to the reception of the truth and may you receive it well and benefit by it. Ameen.
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Gintoki
04-09-2013, 08:22 AM
Originally Posted by NjmYqlb
What would it take to convince you? What sort of proof would be enough? No one can fill a cup that is already full. Is your cup already full? Analyze yourself. What is your primary motivation in life at the moment? I was where you are now once long ago, I read a bit of every major religion, astrology and science looking for the an answer. Knowledge only convinced me that faith cannot come from it alone. First requirement to seeking faith is to acknowledge we don't know enough, we can't know enough, we need guidance and God is the owner and source of guidance. Throw away all your conclusions, open your mind then sincerely, honestly, humbly, ask God for guidance, if you are a truthful seeker of faith. Be patient...
I don't know myself. But all i know is that i must clear my doubts in order to be open minded. My primary motivation in life is nothing,just going with the flow. Will i have to pray to God in order for Him to give me guidance or i can just straightly ask Him?
Reply

Hulk
04-09-2013, 08:46 AM
The cure to doubt is certainty through knowledge. Since you see yourself as an atheist/agnostic then you must first think about whether your position is grounded upon knowledge or not. To me the atheist position is illogical as you ignore your reason and conclude solely based on "scientific evidence". Scientific evidence referring to empirical evidence. According to this understanding, whatever that you cannot perceive with your five senses does not exist. If you agree with this then you probably wouldn't have believed in the existence of microbes before the microscope was invented. This is not to say that God should be seen in the same way but it is for us to understand that our senses are limited.

Despite our limited senses however we have our intellect, our ability to reason. Whatever you can perceive around you, you know that it must've had a source; even yourself. There are lots of threads around here that might help you InshaaAllah.

Some would use the "scientific miracle" argument for Islam but personally for me if there are indeed evidence of the Quran being in agreement with modern scientific discovery then it is additional knowledge to what is already clear.
Reply

Gintoki
04-09-2013, 08:47 AM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
1. “How do we know our religion is the correct one?” Boy was Francis Bacon right when he said that plurality in beliefs inclineth a man’s mind to atheism. I don’t know whether to call this argument a gambler’s fallacy or a fallacy of appeal to probability but it kind of amounts to the same, I guess. Just Google those terms and you should get the idea of how what you’re saying begs the question.

Answering even slightly briefly why Islam is correct is kind of impossible for me but since you used to believe, what were your reasons? That’s the more important question, I think.

2. We are judged for our intentions, not for our successes.

3. Devils “whispering” in our ears is not the only kind of bad influence on us, and can’t make us do anything. In fact do we even really know how often it ever happens?

4. That’s funny...mostly it’s believers that I hear promoting the false dilemma of “evolution = atheism”. Personally the subject is of little interest to me. If I absolutely must talk about this with you then maybe I will eventually but it’s such a huge message board cliché that I reached the point years ago where I felt like I was going to pull my hair out if I had to do it even one more time. People nowadays are positively obsessed with evolution. In the old days arguments from design would actually focus on whether the whole world was designed and not bother with trifles like the specific timeframe or with the bloodlines of lifeforms on Earth. Stop and think about it: when was the last time you ever heard anyone describe something as fiction which was written more than a few hundred years ago? The same principle applies to allegory. The older something is the more literally it gets taken. Chronological snobbery is the only reasonable explanation for this. Those ancient Romans must have really believed that the sun was a chariot—never mind that it looks nothing like one. I’ve heard that Maurice Bucaille’s book “The Bible, The Qur’an and Science” is a good resource on this matter but I haven’t read it.

5. No one is actually made to be roasted. Those who are found with even a mustard seed of piety or goodness in them will be transferred to Paradise. Who’s to say that it was already there when they entered?

Look, people usually go through something like this when they're young. The name "Allah" is written everywhere. You just have to keep your eyes peeled.
No reasons. It was more like a blind belief as i was young that time,But most of the people follow blind belief. But i strongly believed they should be Allah that time,as I saw His name in cloud form,mainly why my belief was strong at that time.

Isn't it the humans own free will to do bad things? Not all but majority of the humans are selfish.That's human nature.

The only reason I'm bringing up Evolution is because the humans and apes DNA are the same,plus the old skeletons resembling the human's skeleton structure.
news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/10/091001-oldest-human-skeleton-ardi-missing-link-chimps-ardipithecus-ramidus.html

I know the arguments I'm bringing is not logical,But then again doubts confuses a person.

It's clearly mentioned in the Quran that all Muslims will go to heaven and all Non-Muslims to hell for eternity.Only the Muslims would be forgiven after paying for their sins in the hell fire. So whether if it's a good non-Muslim,he's going to hell. Oh you're not a Muslim,You were born in the wrong time and you were born in the wrong part of the world,Oh sorry you're going to hell for eternity!
Reply

Gintoki
04-09-2013, 08:58 AM
Originally Posted by Karl
how do you feel about your perceived reality? Do you believe that life the universe and everything is in chaos (atomic disorder) or order? I was looking through the dictionary and I came upon a word aeon or eon, meaning a vast age, eternity, a large division of geological time. A power emanating from the supreme deity, with it's share in the creation and government of the universe.
I suppose people have always believed in God or Gods as the complexities of everything can only be explained that way. Scientists today like to announce the answers to everything with words and theories, but they are only good at spinning their own delusions of the "truth" a kind of cult of "logic". But they are no better than the idle fantastic ramblings of a young child. Where is the proof? With religion you only need faith. In science you need absolute proof, complete data in every hypothesis otherwise you are basing your answers on belief not facts.
So stick with the Godly instead of the Godless as I have proven it to be logical.
I believe everything is in order,and the world has a perfect system. And they must be a creator governing it.
Some of the reason why i think they should be a God is because of the world's perfect design. The materials in this world such as fruits and vegetables which helps to fight diseases. Even the cancer curing fruit is there. Obviously this can't have happen on the chance. It can't be after coincidence and again coincidence and so on. Plus the the Earth has a special layer which protect us from harmful sun rays. That's why I'm eager to find the truth.But then again my other doubts is confusing me mentally.
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Gintoki
04-09-2013, 10:36 AM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
May Allah open your heart to the reception of the truth and may you receive it well and benefit by it. Ameen.
I guess Quran. Because unlike other religions,it makes sense. But as you said Allah has 99 attributes and one of them is His kindness. But why does do He let children starve and why do murder and rape happen? Why doesn't Allah stop them?.Why did Allah make us as His entertainment? And I'm more worry about the fact how Non-muslims will be treated. Even if they were good. And eternal torture will make a person go crazy. Why does Allah want to torture non-Muslims for eternity? Why wouldn't he forgive them? Keep in mind I'm talking about those innocent non-muslims,Not the ones who commit murder and rape.

I don't really know. I guess Quran is a miracle? But i find it hard to believe because of my other doubts.
But Greeks weren't the only one who discovered facts. They were other races who discovered it also. Also isn't it possible that they learned the facts from other people? Either from traveling to another nation or a person coming to Arabia and told them those facts?
Read the answers from atheists here:
in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100903130012AA9mYxv

Especially from the user 'Brigalow Bloke'

Interesting. Did you happen to see Allah's appearance or only light?

No,it's fine. I like reading long things and thank you for your time for writing a long post for me.
Reply

Gintoki
04-09-2013, 10:41 AM
Originally Posted by Hulk
The cure to doubt is certainty through knowledge. Since you see yourself as an atheist/agnostic then you must first think about whether your position is grounded upon knowledge or not. To me the atheist position is illogical as you ignore your reason and conclude solely based on "scientific evidence". Scientific evidence referring to empirical evidence. According to this understanding, whatever that you cannot perceive with your five senses does not exist. If you agree with this then you probably wouldn't have believed in the existence of microbes before the microscope was invented. This is not to say that God should be seen in the same way but it is for us to understand that our senses are limited.

Despite our limited senses however we have our intellect, our ability to reason. Whatever you can perceive around you, you know that it must've had a source; even yourself. There are lots of threads around here that might help you InshaaAllah.

Some would use the "scientific miracle" argument for Islam but personally for me if there are indeed evidence of the Quran being in agreement with modern scientific discovery then it is additional knowledge to what is already clear.
Yes i know that. As for the microbes example,it makes sense.
As you said there's a source of everything,but then Who created God? Surely He must also have an origin. How can he magically appear?
Reply

Gintoki
04-09-2013, 10:58 AM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
5. No one is actually made to be roasted. Those who are found with even a mustard seed of piety or goodness in them will be transferred to Paradise. Who’s to say that it was already there when they entered?
Forgot to add one point,that there's like 8 or 6 billion in this world. And only 1.4 billion Muslims. So like only 1.4 billion people will go to heaven? And more than half in hell? This doesn't sound logical to me. :/
Reply

Hulk
04-09-2013, 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Yes i know that. As for the microbes example,it makes sense.
As you said there's a source of everything,but then Who created God? Surely He must also have an origin. How can he magically appear?
If I were to be more specific it would have been every creation has a Creator. When we understand this then we will see that a question like "Who created God?" is a form of absurdity.
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-09-2013, 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
It's clearly mentioned in the Quran that all Muslims will go to heaven and all Non-Muslims to hell for eternity
You do know that muslim means “submitter”, right?

You’re contradicting yourself:

Isn't it the humans own free will to do bad things?
Oh you're not a Muslim,You were born in the wrong time and you were born in the wrong part of the world,Oh sorry you're going to hell for eternity!
Not to mention…

It was more like a blind belief
I know the arguments I'm bringing is not logical,But then again doubts confuses a person.
The very last thing you need to be doing is going from blind belief to blind disbelief.

The Qur’an specifically denies that anything in this world was made as entertainment for The Deity. Indeed, it says that if He actually needed any entertainment, which He doesn’t, then He could have easily enough found it on His own. In what universe are “test” and “entertainment” synonyms??
Reply

Good brother
04-09-2013, 01:02 PM
The creator is He who creates. Creature is created by the creator :exhausted

God is uncreated by definition. We take Allah as a God because He is uncreated. If he was created He would not be God, and therefore we would not take him as God. By definition Eternal is forever with no beginning; therefore the question is absurd. Only temporal/non-eternal beings are created.




Does God Almighty send good people to HELL?

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ople-hell.html
http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-nee...plegotohellwhy
http://www.islamsgreen.org/islams_green/2006/04/do_good_people_.html


You said that human & chimpanzee DNA are the same. Actually they share 96% (source)--the human genome contains over 3 billion base pairs so the difference = 120,000,000 base pairs - The similarity isn't something unexpected. We already knew there was a vast amount of similarity between humans and primates both in terms of physical characteristics and structure. It is a mistake to assume that observing similarities necessarily brings you to the conclusion of common descent. Taxonomy based on physical characteristics was already a very well established science when the idea of common descent came on the scene. Note that 99% of mouse genes turn out to have analogues in humans (source)
Reply

Gintoki
04-09-2013, 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
You do know that muslim means “submitter”, right?

You’re contradicting yourself:





Not to mention…





The very last thing you need to be doing is going from blind belief to blind disbelief.

The Qur’an specifically denies that anything in this world was made as entertainment for The Deity. Indeed, it says that if He actually needed any entertainment, which He doesn’t, then He could have easily enough found it on His own. In what universe are “test” and “entertainment” synonyms??
Yes i do know that,but you're avoiding the question about how Non-Muslims will go to hell including the good ones and my point is that if they are 1.4 billion Muslims in the world out of 8 billion. More than half will be burned in hell. So more than half of His creation is made to be burned in Hell and very small amount of people will have a place in heaven.
And my question that all good Non-Muslims will be burned in hell for eternity,which contradicts his nature of being Merciful. If I'm cooking and i accidentally burn my hand,i would be in great pain and can't survive a day. How is a person going to survive hell fire?No good person deserves that kind of punishment.
Reply

YusufNoor
04-09-2013, 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Yes please do that. But i think the lectures wont help me at the moment because the hell concept is disturbing me alot. I would appreciate if you can clear that doubt of mine.
:sl:

BismiAllah ArRahman Ar Raheem,

as you can clearly see on this board, Muslims, sadly, love to tell all non-Muslims that they are going to the hellfire, whilst all the Muslims are going to Jannah.

perhaps the term Muslim confuses everyone, Allahu Alam.

i apologize in advance if this doesn't make any sense to you, but consider:

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say:

“The first of people against whom judgment will be pronounced on the Day of Resurrection will be a man who died a martyr. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: ‘And what did you do about them?’ He will say: ‘I fought for You until I died a martyr.’ He will say: ‘You have lied - you did but fight that it might be said [of you]: ‘He is courageous.’’ And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire. [Another] will be a man who has studied [religious] knowledge and has taught it and who used to recite the Qur’an. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: ‘And what did you do about them?’ He will say: ‘I studied [religious] knowledge and I taught it and I recited the Qur’an for Your sake.’ He will say: ‘You have lied - you did but study [religious] knowledge that it might be said [of you]: ‘He is learned.’’ And you recited the Qur’an that it might be said [of you]: ‘He is a reciter.’ And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire. [Another] will be a man whom Allah had made rich and to whom He had given all kinds of wealth. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: ‘And what did you do about them?’ He will say: ‘I left no path [un-trodden] in which You like money to be spent without spending in it for Your sake.’ He will say: ‘You have lied - you did but do so that it might be said [of you]: ‘He is open-handed.’’ And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire.”

It was related by Muslim (also by at-Tirmidhi and an-Nasa’i)
so...are ALL Muslims going directly to Jannah? absolutely not! one would imagine that not only these Muslims thought they were "great Muslims", but those around them probably thought so as well. but...they were wrong.

do ALL non-Muslims go to the hellfire?

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "A prostitute was forgiven by Allah,
because, passing by a panting dog near a well
and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst,
she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover
she drew out some water for it.
So, Allah forgave her because of that."
(Book #54, Hadith #538)
the answer? no!

Allah is Makliki Yawmid Din, not us!

nice post on the subject:

http://seekersguidance.org/ans-blog/...e-thirsty-dog/

further, we know, or should know, that those who never received the Message of Islam will be given an opportunity. (my browser is full, i can seek the hadith later if you want, in shaa Allah.) so let me posit the question, are we delivering the Message?

listen to what RasoolAllah, pbuh, has to say about us:

Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "A time will come when the nations (of the world) will surround you from every side, just as diners gather around the main dish. Somebody asked, 'Oh Messenger of Allah, will it be on account of our scarcity at that time?' He said, 'No, but you will be scum, like the scum of flood water. Feebleness will be in your hearts, and fear will be removed from the hearts of your enemies, on account of your love for the world, and your abhorrence of death.'" [Ahmad, Abu Dawud]
so...we are basically like the scum of the [earth]...IF we were proper Muslims AND we were spreading the Din properly, then that hadith would NOT apply to us...but...it DOES!

ergo, if we are NOT delivering the Message, ie, doing our job, then humanity is still deserving a second chance!

yet somehow, we must rely on the Mercy of Allah. here's one of my favorite hadiths:

HADITH 42
On the authority of Anas, who said: I heard the messenger of Allah say:

p Allah the Almighty has said: "O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its."

related by Al-Tirmithi, who said that it was a good and sound Hadith.
Allah is the Most Merciful, we just need to assess shirk, and eliminate it from our lives. i like my little formula:
Taqwah + Tawbah = Tawhid

Taqwah isn't just fear of Allah, it is a consciousness of Allah. so, learn Tawhid, which entails totally defining shirk; make this your life's goal, all the while seeking Allah's assistance and forgiveness for falling short.

many question Allah's Mercy, but again, another Glorious Hadith:

·Narrated Abu Hurairah:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "Allah divided Mercy into one-hundred parts and He kept its ninety-nine parts with Him and sent down its one part on the earth, and because of that one single part, His creations are Merciful to each other, so that even the mare lifts up its hoofs away from its baby animal, lest it should trample on it."
(Bukhari)
we are totally clueless when it comes to Allah's Mercy. actually, when we "think we know better than Allah", we are committing shirk! thus, An Nawawi's Hadith no 42 is imperative to understand.

i want to keep this post short, but i forgot the 5th in my top 5 speakers. and this brother is mad rad! i'll post this lecture just because i watched it yesterday, but the brother is very gifted:



May Allah guide us all to the straight way, idhinas siratul mustaqeen!

ma salaama
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-09-2013, 02:06 PM
How did I avoid the question?? And how did you miss Qur'an 2:62 and 2:286?
Reply

Jalal~
04-09-2013, 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Keep in mind I'm talking about those innocent non-muslims,Not the ones who commit murder and rape.
remember, murder and rape are not the only sins in the world. stealing, cheating, fornicating, drinking beer are also sins in many religions, but people still partake in these sins. if you live in the west, you will surely know how some people spend friday and saturday nights...

But anyways, You do mention many times that Allah is not merciful for letting people starve to death, and for letting people get murdered or raped. But if there was no God, then who would bring Justice to these innocent people? If there was no God, there wouldn't be much order on the universe. I could easily steal money from a bank, rape as many women as I would like, then chill in prison with a roof over my head and 3 square meals a day. Then I would eventually die, and then what? According to your beliefs, nothing would happen to me, because I wouldn't get punished since their is no afterlife! :)

But once you read about the attributes of Allah, you will surely see he is the most Just. He is the one who will proportion out everyone's reward and punishment. Even if their are people who are starving, their is surely someone out their with enough power and money to bring relief to these people. And Allah will ask that person why they didn't help them, why they hoarded all their money in a bank. And when they can't reply, then who knows, maybe all of their good deeds will transfer over to the starved, deprived people, and there you go! those poor people have finally received their justice, when it really matters.

Please brothers and sisters, please do tell me if i have stated anything wrong or incorrectly, especially in my last paragraph. I dont want to make any errors and convey the wrong message if you know what im saying :)
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-09-2013, 03:37 PM
Without suffering there could be no compassion. Or courage or perseverance. Or self-improvement for the most part. It's only in the crucible where the impurities are burned away.
Reply

NjmYqlb
04-09-2013, 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
I don't know myself. But all i know is that i must clear my doubts in order to be open minded. My primary motivation in life is nothing,just going with the flow. Will i have to pray to God in order for Him to give me guidance or i can just straightly ask Him?
As far as i know, yes, you can just ask him straight. God hears all, if you ask him sincerely, God willing, he will guide you.
Reply

Amat Allah
04-09-2013, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
the question about how Non-Muslims will go to hell including the good ones
listen to this and In Shaa Allah you will find the answer...

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ople-hell.html

May Allah lead your way to the path of the endless happiness Aameen
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-09-2013, 07:29 PM
we really need to sit dwn in a cafe and discuss this such a long topic.


your neglect of salaah lead to whispers from satan which lead to your misunderstanding of the worlds situation and finally your neglecting of the creator.

that is the extremely summarised version of a 2 hour chat over some tea.
Reply

Gintoki
04-09-2013, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by Good brother
You said that human & chimpanzee DNA are the same. Actually they share 96% (source)--the human genome contains over 3 billion base pairs so the difference = 120,000,000 base pairs - The similarity isn't something unexpected. We already knew there was a vast amount of similarity between humans and primates both in terms of physical characteristics and structure. It is a mistake to assume that observing similarities necessarily brings you to the conclusion of common descent. Taxonomy based on physical characteristics was already a very well established science when the idea of common descent came on the scene. Note that 99% of mouse genes turn out to have analogues in humans
Good. I guess I'm convinced of a creator not having a creator.

I'm having mixed answers about hell thing. Some saying people will get fair justice and some saying only Muslims deserve paradise. I watched the 'why does god almighty send good people to hell' video. That turned me off. Sounds like only Muslims deserve it.

Well explain this article news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/10/091001-oldest-human-skeleton-ardi-missing-link-chimps-ardipithecus-ramidus.html
Reply

Gintoki
04-09-2013, 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
we are totally clueless when it comes to Allah's Mercy. actually, when we "think we know better than Allah", we are committing shirk! thus, An Nawawi's Hadith no 42 is imperative to understand.
Good post. But I'm confused as people are giving mixed answers.Some positive and some negative including in these forums such as jannat is only for Muslims. Will quote some of these posts i saw in this forum from the 'Is Allah going to put non-muslims in heaven?'
Originally Posted by Urban Turban
Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Ilayhi Raji'oon - to this thread.

For sure Allah is the judge, but Allah rabbul izzat right in this world has granted us the Quran and Ahadith to judge ourselves - if Allah is the judge and he is going to ultimately decide who goes in and who isn't - then why quote the Quran and Ahadith, leave it to Allah and lead your lives as you are leading.

If being good was everything - read it again please, if being good was everything then why is calling people to Islam needed?

Why is so necessary to believe in and read and lead 'There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger' (peace and immense blessings be upon him) ?

Why were the Prophets (peace be upon him) sent?

We think there were no good and merciful caring Christians before Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) - and no good pious Jews before Prophet Jesus Christ (Isa) (Peace be upon him) etc etc ?

Like I said before... Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Ilayhi Raji'oon - to this thread.

------------------------


---

A Muslim is someone who communicates the Commandments and Promises and Warnings of Allah honestly, as has been revealed in the Book & Sunnah, not someone who succumbs to political correctness and plants doubts in peoples minds, and prevents people from the path of Allah.

---



———————————————————————————————-




The Aqidah of the Ahlus Sunnah on who will be punished in the inferno and for how long, as stated in the Quran, Hadith, Teachings of Sahaba, and the Ijma’ of the scholars:

1. Sinful Muslims of the Ahlus Sunnah – for a temporary period of time to chastise them of their sins.

2. Those ahlul bid’ah (people of innovation) of the Muslims whose beliefs were somewhat corrupt and misled, but NOT to the extent of them becoming kafir
– for a temporary period of time to chastise them of their sins and corrupt beliefs are a greater sin than corrupt actions.

3. ALL Kafirs – whether they are those Ahlul bid’ah whose beliefs became corrupt to the extent of them becoming Kafirs (like the Isma’ilis and Alevis for instance); or other kafirs like Christians, Jews, Atheists, Buddhists etc. who heard the Prophet’s name and his call to worship Allah alone – they shall stay in the inferno unceasingly, for ever, their punishment shall neither be lessened, nor shall they ever leave the inferno, there shall be NO intercessors for them either – the Quran says this in black and white.

We pray to Allah to grant us a life on Iman and a death on Iman, and to let us be benefitted by His Beloved Messenger’s intercession on the day of judgment. Aamiin bi hurmati Nabiyyihil ameen.

:wa:
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
jannah is for muslims only. and even for muslims it isnt easy to get into so i always say to myself "how do you plan on defeating your lower self because jannah is surrounded by fitnah.... what is your hope?"

may sound heartless but i have little time to worry about those who reject Allah

althou i hope perhaps they will be guided by their own sincerity and Allah is most Just and Most Wise
So no one has answered this question I'm posing,They are 1.5 billions muslims out of 8 billion total people in this world. More than half will be in hell being burned. How is this logical? Cause it doesn't sound logical to me.
Reply

Gintoki
04-09-2013, 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
How did I avoid the question?? And how did you miss Qur'an 2:62 and 2:286?
Read the post which i directed to YusufNoor.
Reply

Gintoki
04-09-2013, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by Jalal~
But anyways, You do mention many times that Allah is not merciful for letting people starve to death, and for letting people get murdered or raped. But if there was no God, then who would bring Justice to these innocent people? If there was no God, there wouldn't be much order on the universe. I could easily steal money from a bank, rape as many women as I would like, then chill in prison with a roof over my head and 3 square meals a day. Then I would eventually die, and then what? According to your beliefs, nothing would happen to me, because I wouldn't get punished since their is no afterlife! :)
Well look at the Atheists,you don't see majority of them committing crimes such as those right? They have morals too and can comprehend what's right and wrong. So that's a poor example. :/
Reply

Gintoki
04-09-2013, 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by Amat Allah

listen to this and In Shaa Allah you will find the answer...


May Allah lead your way to the path of the endless happiness Aameen
I didn't liked that video. It was obvious his point was only Muslims deserve too go to heaven.
Reply

Gintoki
04-09-2013, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
we really need to sit dwn in a cafe and discuss this such a long topic.


your neglect of salaah lead to whispers from satan which lead to your misunderstanding of the worlds situation and finally your neglecting of the creator.

that is the extremely summarised version of a 2 hour chat over some tea.
Is their any evidence that satan is whispering in my ears?
I heard that when you wake up and you have a bad taste in mouth is because satan takes a piss in our mouth. Again stupid logic.
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-09-2013, 09:34 PM
I don't know if there's any evidence for that or not but you're the one who saw that name in the sky. Like I said keep your eyes (and mind) open and you just might see it elsewhere too. It's written all over the place.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-09-2013, 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Is their any evidence that satan is whispering in my ears?
I heard that when you wake up and you have a bad taste in mouth is because satan takes a piss in our mouth. Again stupid logic.
this wont make any sense to the spiritually dead but you are blinded by logic at the moment.
Reply

Amat Allah
04-09-2013, 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
I didn't liked that video. It was obvious his point was only Muslims deserve too go to heaven.
I don't know if you have seen the video till the end but I assure you that what you have posted above wasn't his point... You can try and listen again with an open heart and mind if you wish to understand. May Allah give you the best always Aameen
Reply

Good brother
04-09-2013, 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Well explain this article news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/10/091001-oldest-human-skeleton-ardi-missing-link-chimps-ardipithecus-ramidus.html
Confused Researchers, Later their conjecture was rejected:
http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/resear...-mans-ancestor

Just like many others:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...43107904_n.jpg

Propaganda effect:
Reply

YusufNoor
04-09-2013, 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Is their any evidence that satan is whispering in my ears?
I heard that when you wake up and you have a bad taste in mouth is because satan takes a piss in our mouth. Again stupid logic.
the first part, yes. the second :embarrass well, i hear an awful lot of "stuff" too. not sure of it's origin.

anyway, about the first. there are some ahadith, but i was ready for the next step. so, another hadith; An Nawawi #37:

Narrated / Authority of: Ibn Abbas
that the messenger of Allah, among the sayings he relates from his Lord is : "Allah has written down the good deeds and the bad ones." Then he explained it [by saying that] :" He who has intended a good deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed, but if he has intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as from ten good deeds to seven hundred times, or many times over. But if he has intended a bad deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed, but if he has intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down as one bad deed." related by Bukhari and Muslim in their two salihs
so, it might sound irrational that Allah allows us to be tempted, but the simple act of NOT performing said bad deed is considered a good deed! do a good deed, 10 - 700 times the ajr. don't do the bad deed, ANOTHER good deed! do the bad deed, 1, just 1, bad deed. WaAllahi, Allah is the most merciful!

and i lost my train of though on the other post imsad(this was actually part of it), so can i present some more points of view for you, akhi?

ma salaama
Reply

Jalal~
04-10-2013, 01:54 AM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Well look at the Atheists,you don't see majority of them committing crimes such as those right? They have morals too and can comprehend what's right and wrong. So that's a poor example. :/
Well what about the people who do commit these crimes? That's great that the majority of them don't commit these crimes, and people should follow suit :) but what about the one's who do? If a person's future is stolen by a gunman, and they aren't able to live their lives to the fullest, then How does the innocent victim receive his or her justice if their is no afterlife?
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-10-2013, 02:14 AM
Originally Posted by Jalal~
But what about the one's who do? If a person's future is stolen by a gunman, and they aren't able to live their lives to the fullest, then How does the innocent victim receive his or her justice if their is no afterlife?
Jack the Ripper. Horribly mutilated and murdered anywhere from five to eleven people. Never caught--to his dying day.
Reply

Gintoki
04-10-2013, 07:43 AM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
I don't know if there's any evidence for that or not but you're the one who saw that name in the sky. Like I said keep your eyes (and mind) open and you just might see it elsewhere too. It's written all over the place.
I believe these kind of miracles happen once in a life time,no?
Reply

Gintoki
04-10-2013, 07:45 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
this wont make any sense to the spiritually dead but you are blinded by logic at the moment.
Yes,logic. But there's logic to everything,just like theirs logic to how a creator can't be created. Surely there's logic explaining the existence of devils and angels.
Reply

Gintoki
04-10-2013, 07:55 AM
Originally Posted by Amat Allah

I don't know if you have seen the video till the end but I assure you that what you have posted above wasn't his point... You can try and listen again with an open heart and mind if you wish to understand. May Allah give you the best always Aameen
I seen the video till the end.
The guy was posing examples such as if a man orders a paint guy to paint his house white but instead he paints it red. The owner of that house would be angry. So if we apply that logic to Allah,if we don't do what Allah wants us to do,then we would fail and hell awaits them us. Another example which i will tell you which i heard from Zakir Naik in his lectures. If there's 5 subjects a person has to give to get admission in a university. English,match,science,geography,Hindi. It's compulsory for a person to pass all the papers. Let's say if a person passes the 4 papers and fails in Hindi. He won't get admission in the university. I see the scholars using the same logic.So all non-muslims go to hell according to it. But again as I'm saying there's 1.5 billion people in the world out of approx 8 billion. Not only a small portion of the population of the world could get heaven,this isn't logical. I see some people using logic that even if a non-Muslim did a good deed,such as feeding a poor let's say,he would only get awards in this present world and not in the hereafter. Because he only felt it was right and didn't do it for God. So people saying intentions count,how can it count when God clearly has mention that if they don't do good deeds for the sake of Allah,then they don't count. How would an atheist know that God exists?
Reply

Gintoki
04-10-2013, 08:04 AM
Originally Posted by Good brother
Confused Researchers, Later their conjecture was rejected:
Oh okay. What about that ape lucy?
Reply

Gintoki
04-10-2013, 08:07 AM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
the first part, yes. the second :embarrass well, i hear an awful lot of "stuff" too. not sure of it's origin.

anyway, about the first. there are some ahadith, but i was ready for the next step. so, another hadith; An Nawawi #37:



so, it might sound irrational that Allah allows us to be tempted, but the simple act of NOT performing said bad deed is considered a good deed! do a good deed, 10 - 700 times the ajr. don't do the bad deed, ANOTHER good deed! do the bad deed, 1, just 1, bad deed. WaAllahi, Allah is the most merciful!

and i lost my train of though on the other post imsad(this was actually part of it), so can i present some more points of view for you, akhi?

ma salaama
Oh,so what's the evidence?
That ahadith is a nice thing but I'm wondering if the same applies to Non-Muslims,because most scholars says they going to hell.
Reply

Gintoki
04-10-2013, 08:08 AM
Originally Posted by Jalal~
Well what about the people who do commit these crimes? That's great that the majority of them don't commit these crimes, and people should follow suit :) but what about the one's who do? If a person's future is stolen by a gunman, and they aren't able to live their lives to the fullest, then How does the innocent victim receive his or her justice if their is no afterlife?
If there is an afterlife then justice will be served,but if there's no afterlife then no justice will be served. We live in a cruel world after all.
Reply

Gintoki
04-10-2013, 08:42 AM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
I don't know if there's any evidence for that or not but you're the one who saw that name in the sky. Like I said keep your eyes (and mind) open and you just might see it elsewhere too. It's written all over the place.
I need to have more than 50 posts to reply to your pm.
So i will just reply it here
You're talking about Non-muslims right? But yes,i kinda noticed that. Do they have a problem with the big bang theory? Because Quran kinda confirms it. I'm kinda amazed how Quran has many scientific evidences. But then i see atheist's responses and get in confusion again. I'm more like a 'jumping to the bandwagon' guy.See some of their response here:
in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100903130012AA9mYxv
I have a question,So Hazrat Adam is a man,and he had a son. Were his son's height long just like his? Because according to what i heard the very first humans were long in height and near the size of a dinosaur. So if We are made of Water and dust. Then other species should also be made of it too,so do the apes have the same amount of water as us?I don't have much knowledge about evolution so i can't say.
Yes i read those verses,felt a little ease. Then saw the negative responses from users here and some scholar videos. So back to my doubting self. As you said,they dig up the scriptures and support it,how do we know if they are right or wrong? Same could be said for the positive responses.
Reply

Al-Mufarridun
04-10-2013, 10:24 AM
Greetings Gintoki, welcome to the forum.

Originally Posted by Gintoki
I have a question,So Hazrat Adam is a man,and he had a son. Were his son's height long just like his? Because according to what i heard the very first humans were long in height and near the size of a dinosaur. So if We are made of Water and dust. Then other species should also be made of it too,so do the apes have the same amount of water as us?I don't have much knowledge about evolution so i can't say.
Allah :swt: made made Adam's physical form with His own Hands. All of the other creations, angels, trees, animals, stars, galaxies, Allah :swt: just says 'Be' and They are. This is an honor for the children of Adam.

Adam(as) and the earlier humans were very tall, so it would be logical to believe also that the creatures that lived during His time were proportional to their height also. Meaning that If Adam was 100 ft tall, his chicken would NOT be the chicken of our size, rather it would probably be the size of our elephants or bigger.

Allah :swt: knows best.
Reply

Al-Mufarridun
04-10-2013, 11:02 AM
Originally Posted by Gintoki

Now my problems with Islam which i would like to discuss.
First thing first,How do you Muslims know that your religion is the correct one? They are many religions out there,and they think they are right and such. Some Muslims are going to say that Islam is the correct one and Quran is a miracle. Allah send signs,the scientific evidence and etc. Anyone would research their religion and find that their religion is correct. According to what i read on the internet,some atheists are saying that these scientific evidence was long discovered before islam by the greeks.
To know why Muslims believe Islam is the correct one or not, you would have to read, research, learn what Muslims believe, how it is different form what others believe.


It's unfair for non-muslims to be born in a non-muslim family. I already know some people are going to say that Allah sends them signs about Quran in some way. But the fact ismsome are going to ignore it as they are already brainwashed from their family that their current religion is correct. Why would they even give a chance to islam when they are already brainwashed? Or some people might not even heard about Quran in their entire life. One of the points why i think Quran is man-made.( No offence to you muslims.)
Do you know Islam's view on the subject, regarding the fate of non-Muslims? not some Muslim's view, or what you have read in the internet, on a forum or yahoo answers? Have you read the Quran, understood it before you 'judge' it to be 'man-made'?

Even believing in Angels and the devils is harder. Devil whispers in our ears to make us do bad deeds? Really?
Do you believe in neutrinos? what about dark-matter? anti-matter? imagine telling a 2-dimensional creature about a 3-dimensional object. talk about 'hard'.

When physicist tell us of neutrinos we believe them, but when the Messenger of the Creator tell us of Angels we doubt, disbelieve them.

Secondly, the Adam and Eve story. So the world was created because Adam ate the forbidden apple.......Seriously? No matter how you look at it,it sounds like a some fairy tale story similar to Santa Claus or unocrns,of course to us non-believers...Some people are going to bring up the arguement that where did we humans come from? To Muslims it's Adam and Eve. But as my counter-arguement,one word 'Evolution'. Atleast that's what atheists believe. Even the apes and humans DNA are 98% the same. Science has proven that we can't have come from Adam and Eve. A while ago i even read an article of old skeletons skull structure being the same as apes. Don't tell me it's false or i will facepalm myself so hard my nose breaks. Even some scientists believe that's there's a 50% chance there's no God,if you research into the creation of universe,there's a chance that world was made by a mere coincidence.
No, the earth existed long before Adam and Eve(peace be upon them both). Second, the subject of evolution and Islam has been discussed so many times, it wouldn't take more than an hour of your time to learn about islam's view on the subject.

Another question, after this world ends,another world would emerge,and process will continue with new people....this process will keep on repeating...this doesn't make sense.
According to what source is this the case?
Reply

YusufNoor
04-10-2013, 11:04 AM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Oh,so what's the evidence?

uh, sorry, the evidence for what? do you mean the evidence for the waswas?

That ahadith is a nice thing but I'm wondering if the same applies to Non-Muslims,because most scholars says they going to hell.

when it comes to specific advice, it would seem logical that the advice is directed to the Muslims. however, whe someone decides to emphatically state that they know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell...well, that is just plain shirk! Allah is Maliki Yawmid Din and HE decides. when offering evidence from the Qur'an about the issue, it is better to just give the evidence, but then try to give ALL the evidence.

most scholars says they going to hell
that and $5.00 will get you an overpriced coffee drink at Starbucks.

ma salaama
Reply

YusufNoor
04-10-2013, 01:23 PM
i was starting to look up a good tafsir for An Naas, cuz the old ibn Kathir sight seems to be gone, but came across this. i thought you might enjoy it. and i'll keep looking.

Reply

YusufNoor
04-10-2013, 01:39 PM
this should suffice:

http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/tafseer/114.htm

the part that reads:

"0f Jinn and An-Nãs."

is an explanation of who is it that whispers into the breasts of mankind from the devils of mankind and Jinns. This is similar to Allah’s saying,

And so We have appointed for every Prophet enemies - Shayatin among mankind and Jinn, inspiring one another with adorned speech as a delusion. (6:112)

Imam Ah
ma salaama
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-10-2013, 02:32 PM
Yahoo Answers? Seriously?? Look at a typical response from that link:

"The Hobbit" makes reference to the existence of mountains. That mountains exist is a scientific fact. This has no bearing on the factual validity of the more fantastic things described in the book. There is nothing more shameful than someone with the ability to reason, who willfully abdicates that ability. Especially in the egocentric notion that they have a personal relationship with a magical entity that creates universes. (rated as “good” by six people)

And for Yahoo Answers that is indeed extremely typical. A lot of the stuff there that actually goes beyond mere childishness still hardly even qualifies as an argument—or really as anything other than pure denial:

Even a broken clock is right once or twice a day depending on whether you use the AM/PM or 24 hour system.

anything can fit the facts if you try hard enough

Like, for example, attempts to deflect the issue with extremely clichéd misconceptions which have nothing to do with anything:

the koran is a very sad second hand version of a myth that was plagarized in the first place—if you had an intellectual honesty you'd see that the koran is myth—based on the myths the hebrews plagarized from the sumerians and egyptians. Because it is a second hand story islam is an even sillier religion that christianity which is sillier than the original judism.

Or just misrepresenting the arguments themselves in the first place:

The earth is NOT shaped like an egg.
The universe is NOT "in a state of gas."


Really there are only a few serious attempts at refutation in the whole bunch. Some of them are attempts to put forth the idea that “the translations have been manipulated” but it doesn’t take much searching to find that there are times when non-Muslim translators like Arberry render some of these passages in similar ways. And hey, I will be the first to admit that there are also times when Muslims will take things too far and see science where it isn’t. In fact I’m usually the first to notice and be annoyed. Not everything is about science. There are some passages where I want to tell them, “Down, boy: don’t get excited now.” Any argument can be taken too far.

Now let’s look at these serious attempts:

Incidentally, these two quotes contradict each other:
"The realization that the embryo develops in stages in the uterus was not discussed or illustrated until the 15th century A.D."
and
"The staging of human embryos was not proposed until the 1940's"

Were the stages illustrated in the 15th century, or not even proposed until the 1940s? If Dr. Moore actually said both of those things, then he was either a liar or a really crappy embryologist.


I don’t know anything about the original quotes nor about Moore. Frankly I don’t care either. I do know that this Moore guy is hardly the point of things. The point is that every stage of a human being’s development, right down the earliest microscopic level, is described in the text. That’s the ticket, guys! Find an inconsistency in the argument regarding the source material and completely ignore the actual subject at hand!

If it isn't expressed in figures, it's not science, it's opinion.

Can you show us an equation expressing the pressure, temperature and volume relationship of a gas, the relationship between force, mass and acceleration, or a simple chemical equation illustrating the production of iron from iron ore using carbon?


What...the...

I’m sorry, who said that The Qur’an actually was science? Last time I checked it wasn’t a biology textbook, it was just a holy text that happened to be highly prescient of what these textbooks contained. Can you show me a passage where there would have been any theological relevance for such a formula? Where it wouldn’t have been silly and awkward for one to somehow be worked into the text? Perhaps this one:

“O tribe of djinn and humans: if you are able to pass beyond the confines of heaven and earth then pass through! You will never pass through without authority! Against you will be loosed the heat of a mixture of (2) 2Cu2O + C ---> 4Cu + Co2 + (1) Zn and high velocity, heated O2, and you will not be helped.”

The shape and size of the Earth was known more than 800 years before the prophet. See Eratosthenes.

Yes, it was calculated once by Eratosthenes—but it was not known in Arabia!

The fact that the Moon reflects light from the Sun was also known to some, hundreds of years before the prophet was born. Some even claimed the Earth went round the Sun.

There is a reason why “some” is considered weasel words at Wikipedia and therefore forbidden.

The fact that the planets are in fixed orbits has been known since very ancient times, at least as far back as the Babylonians, since observations continued over a few years shows that they regularly appear in certain places and follow the same paths through the sky in relation to the "fixed" stars.

This has been known to the Chinese and the Indians too for a very long time. Measurement of the angles subtended at the surface of the Earth (there's those numbers again) will show any person with a glimmering of mathematics that the planets move in something close to circles. Yes, the Babylonians invented the division of a circle into 360 degrees. Why? For astronomical purposes.


But unlike them The Qur’an says that all of these bodies, including those “fixed” stars, follow a course.

As for embryology and reproduction, the butchering of slaughtered animals would show most of that to an ordinary man. Anyone who cared to investigate it more closely could fill in much more detail.

Including the microscopic ones?

Funny how these verses were all interpreted after science found the true answer.

No, there’s nothing remotely funny about that. Like I said this isn’t a textbook. Also I think he’s exaggerating. For example I’m pretty sure there’s a hadith somewhere specifically identifying the seven earths as seven layers to the one earth.

I will believe the science in the Quran the day a Quranic scholar hammers on the door of MIT and says "No you are looking at that the wrong way. The Quran says you must do this". and the scientist does it and lo and behold the Quran is right. But until that happens your quotes are nonsense.

Wow, what kind of a...

Even apart from the above do you really think that MIT scientist would listen to him? Even if his personal pride didn’t get in the way there’s always the empirical nature of his profession to think of. What’s he going to say when reporting what happened, “A little bird told me?”

The are scientific facts in ALL the holy books, and even some Chinese folklore. All mythology also contains some facts.

The Hopi Indians also have a very interesting prophecy that contains Facts.


Finally something interesting. But they still offer no evidence, no examples. None whatsoever. I'm guessing that the Hopi prophecy in question is the one quoted at the end of "Koyaanisqatsi", which has long since been exposed as a likely hoax. Feel free to look into it yourself. In any event it is nothing, nothing on the huge number of prophecies Muhammad has made, most of which were expressed in fairly clear terms, have come true by now, and have been listed on this board.

1. The accuracy of the Qur'an is not remarkable. All of its accurate points can be explained by simple observation of nature or by selective interpretation of scriptures.

2. Accuracy on individual points does not indicate overall accuracy. Just about every thesis that is wrong overall still has some accurate points in it.


This is a classic ploy by skeptics. If they come across something too accurate for them to explain then—without offering a single example, without offering any evidence at all—they just appeal to the general nature of their experience, in which people will overlook the misses and remember only the hits (when listening to a cold reader, for example). That they’re making such a non-sequitur is the key to understanding the true nature of this argument: it’s a projection. They’re the ones who are really overlooking the hits that they’re seeing right now in favor of whatever it is that they’re falsely perceiving to be misses, and using the “misses” as an excuse to ignore the evidence. The Qur’an describes such people as we seem to be looking at here quite a few times, and not in very complimentary terms, but I shall refrain from quoting it.

3. Claims about accuracy assume that the purpose of the Qur'an is to document scientific data. The purpose of the Qur'an is to teach religion, not science.

Straw man attack. It assumes nothing. It’s just that a few scientific facts happened to be dropped along the way during a book whose purpose is to teach us religion. Which isn’t to say that God was making a mistake or anything but science is not the thesis. Again it’s not a biology textbook is what I’m saying. If this book can stop every now and then to discuss a subject for one verse which doesn’t get brought up a second time then why couldn’t it sometimes touch on something scientific in an incidental way?

4. If the Qur'an's value is made to depend on scientific accuracy, it becomes valueless when people find errors in it, as some people invariably will.

Another straw man, with an unsupported claim tacked on top of it to boot. Yes, I know, every rationalist believes this quite stubbornly. Those poor, bruja stick-waving religions are stuck in the past and therefore inevitably leave the stamp of the past upon them. But you’ll notice they’re not showing us any errors. They just speak of this as some vague theoretical future possibility.

5. If occasional scientific accuracy shows overall accuracy of the Qur'an, the same conclusion must be granted to the Bible, Zend Avesta, and several other works from other religions, all of which can make the same claims to scientific accuracy.

Again, they just say this and expect us to take our word for it. It’s like just because they see all religions as being equally nonsensical and mythical, they expect everyone else in the world to be the same as them. Can anyone but the most blindly arrogant people think like this?

Let me repeat those words from earlier: “There is nothing more shameful than someone with the ability to reason, who willfully abdicates that ability.” Actually most of the page might be summed up well with this one quote:

I just don't want to read the Koran—I have no interest in the Koran—I don't care what it says.
Reply

Good brother
04-10-2013, 02:42 PM
About Lucy:
152 1 -
"GOODBYE, LUCY"

This fossil, discovered in Africa in 1974, was widely esteemed by evolutionists and was the subject of some of the most intensive speculation. Recently however, it has been revealed that Lucy (A. afarensis) had an anatomy ideally suited to climbing trees and was no different from other apes we are familiar with.The famous French scientific magazine, Science et Vie, accepted this truth under the headline "Goodbye=Adieu, Lucy," in its February 1999 issue, and confirmed that Australopithecus cannot be considered an ancestor of man. One study, performed in 2000, discovered a locking system in Lucy’s forearms enabling it to walk using the knuckles, in the same way as modern-day chimps.
http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_man_02.html

1) This is what was actually found:

248pxLucy blackbg 1 -

2: Watch Lucy evolve in the lab of the Darwinists:!!

319pxLucy Skeleton 1 -

3: Now the artists drawings of Lucy

320pxAustralopithecus afarensisJPG 1 -

or

afarensis 1 -
All are imaginations.
If you see the photo & video in my previous post, you will apply them here too.

-------

You
1- Believe in Allah
2- Believe in Quran & Muhammad (PBUH)

so, you are nearly officially muslim. Say shahadah, ask Allah to guide you. Allah is just, he doesn't transgress nor do wrong things. Allah is not questionable to his creatures, they are who will be questioned. Allah doesn't punish till he send a messangers as He said in the quran, May Allah help you to remove this satanic doubts. Put your trust in your creator, reject everything that draw you away from him.
Reply

Gintoki
04-10-2013, 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Mufarridun
Greetings Gintoki, welcome to the forum.



Allah :swt: made made Adam's physical form with His own Hands. All of the other creations, angels, trees, animals, stars, galaxies, Allah :swt: just says 'Be' and They are. This is an honor for the children of Adam.

Adam(as) and the earlier humans were very tall, so it would be logical to believe also that the creatures that lived during His time were proportional to their height also. Meaning that If Adam was 100 ft tall, his chicken would NOT be the chicken of our size, rather it would probably be the size of our elephants or bigger.

Allah :swt: knows best.
If there's Hazrat Adam son's grave,is it long?
Reply

Gintoki
04-10-2013, 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Mufarridun
To know why Muslims believe Islam is the correct one or not, you would have to read, research, learn what Muslims believe, how it is different form what others believe.



Do you know Islam's view on the subject, regarding the fate of non-Muslims? not some Muslim's view, or what you have read in the internet, on a forum or yahoo answers? Have you read the Quran, understood it before you 'judge' it to be 'man-made'?



Do you believe in neutrinos? what about dark-matter? anti-matter? imagine telling a 2-dimensional creature about a 3-dimensional object. talk about 'hard'.

When physicist tell us of neutrinos we believe them, but when the Messenger of the Creator tell us of Angels we doubt, disbelieve them.



No, the earth existed long before Adam and Eve(peace be upon them both). Second, the subject of evolution and Islam has been discussed so many times, it wouldn't take more than an hour of your time to learn about islam's view on the subject.



According to what source is this the case?
I have been getting mixed answers about the fate of non-Muslims,so no. I read 83 pages of the Quran.

Yes i believe in those things.
But angels and devils are supernatural things.

And according to this source:
islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa4175
Reply

Gintoki
04-10-2013, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
when it comes to specific advice, it would seem logical that the advice is directed to the Muslims. however, whe someone decides to emphatically state that they know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell...well, that is just plain shirk! Allah is Maliki Yawmid Din and HE decides. when offering evidence from the Qur'an about the issue, it is better to just give the evidence, but then try to give ALL the evidence.
Yes,evidence for 'waswas'.
Reply

Gintoki
04-10-2013, 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
this should suffice:


the part that reads:



ma salaama
So devil whispers in our ears and gives us bad intentions.
So i did a test on myself,i myself thought of bad intentions,then stopped,then again and process repeats. So yup devil whispering in my ears when it's my own mind thinking that.
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-10-2013, 06:24 PM
I have been getting mixed answers about the fate of non-Muslims

Of course you have. That proves nothing. Is there a single thing you could ask a mixed group of people, especially at a message board, and not receive mixed answers about?

I read 83 pages of the Quran. Yes i believe in those things. But angels and devils are supernatural things.

I think it’s high time to unburden yourself then. If you believe in 83 pages in a row then chances are you believe in the rest too. Everybody has emotional issues from time to time. Learn to recognize them for what they are and then tell your emotions to take a hike. Fill yourself with positive feelings instead. Watch something really funny. Talk a walk amidst pleasant scenery and notice how surrounded you are with sources of thankfulness and praise. Read a book you enjoy.

And according to this source:
islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa4175


What exactly is your point? Judgment Day appears to be a time in which now that the world is coming to a close its laws are starting to be unraveled with it, or something like that. If this is about science then, again, people are going to say different things regarding every topic. "Plurality in beliefs inclineth a man's mind to atheism [but not for an even remotely good reason]."

So devil whispers in our ears and gives us bad intentions. So i did a test on myself,i myself thought of bad intentions,then stopped,then again and process repeats. So yup devil whispering in my ears when it's my own mind thinking that.

Dude, whoever said that no bad intentions ever come from anywhere else on any occasion?!
Reply

NjmYqlb
04-10-2013, 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
I see some people using logic that even if a non-Muslim did a good deed,such as feeding a poor let's say,he would only get awards in this present world and not in the hereafter. Because he only felt it was right and didn't do it for God. So people saying intentions count,how can it count when God clearly has mention that if they don't do good deeds for the sake of Allah,then they don't count. How would an atheist know that God exists?

:sl:
I think you are referring to my post in the other thread. Yes, that is what i have learned, good deeds of any kind will have its rewards but only those done to please God will be rewarded by Him on judgement day.


As for how atheist could know that God exist;
www guardian co uk/commentisfree/belief/2008/nov/25/religion-children-god-belief (can't post links yet)
Developmental psychologists have provided evidence that children are naturally tuned to believe in gods of one sort or another.
• Children tend to see natural objects as designed or purposeful in ways that go beyond what their parents teach, as Deborah Kelemen has demonstrated. Rivers exist so that we can go fishing on them, and birds are here to look pretty.
• Children doubt that impersonal processes can create order or purpose. Studies with children show that they expect that someone not something is behind natural order. No wonder that Margaret Evans found that children younger than 10 favoured creationist accounts of the origins of animals over evolutionary accounts even when their parents and teachers endorsed evolution. Authorities' testimony didn't carry enough weight to over-ride a natural tendency.
• Children know humans are not behind the order so the idea of a creating god (or gods) makes sense to them. Children just need adults to specify which one.
• Experimental evidence, including cross-cultural studies, suggests that three-year-olds attribute super, god-like qualities to lots of different beings. Super-power, super-knowledge and super-perception seem to be default assumptions. Children then have to learn that mother is fallible, and dad is not all powerful, and that people will die. So children may be particularly receptive to the idea of a super creator-god. It fits their predilections.
• Recent research by Paul Bloom, Jesse Bering, and Emma Cohen suggests that children may also be predisposed to believe in a soul that persists beyond death.

The soul has a longing for God, but the soul can be corrupted and the longing silenced. But seriously, are there atheists that haven't heard of God at all in this age? As you might have read in my post on the other thread, for those who never got any message of God from any source, God willing, as stated in Surah Ash-Shams, the conscience/soul will be the final 'failsafe' hope to gain God's mercy.


Originally Posted by Gintoki
I see the scholars using the same logic.So all non-muslims go to hell according to it. But again as I'm saying there's 1.5 billion people in the world out of approx 8 billion. Not only a small portion of the population of the world could get heaven,this isn't logical

I used to think like this as well, that it isn't logical. After many years of acquiring knowledge, this is how i understand my place in the scheme of things. I belong to God. As a slave to God he is free to do with me whatever he pleases. Whatever is sent my way, like it or not, I will have to take it. The good, I must thank Him, the bad, I must pray to Him for relief from it. It is due to His mercy that he has blessed me with so many good things in this life, Alhamdulillah. I understand in a lot of literature and media, God is portrayed as being unconditionally forgiving, merciful and loving to all mankind. This may be true at some point of everyone's life but God will also hate, curse and declare war on some people because of what they do or don't do. Allah's name include Al-Muntaqim (The Avenger/Punisher), Al-Mudhill (The Humiliator), Ad-Darr (The Distressor, The Harmer, The Afflictor). So we must beware of His wrath. He is God, the Almighty, He owns us all. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks, all that matters is what He thinks of us on judgement day. He will do whatever He wants whenever He wants. We cannot demand anything of Him, we can only request, so beware.


If you look at the world from another perspective, this planet is a very nice gift from God. It has everything we need to live on it, it is perfect for mankind. Our senses are a gift beyond any value. What would you give and pay to restore your sight should you lose it? God has only given good things to us. So why is there suffering? The suffering are all man made. Even natural disasters are caused by the activities of mankind but that will be even more difficult to explain in here. So all good things come from God, and what have a lot of people done? They thank/worship something/someone else instead, or completely ignore Him, while blaming everything that is wrong on Him. I must say I find it unjust.


God willing, He will be the Most Merciful to those who acknowledge they are His servants while willingly surrender to His will and would be the Ultimate Punisher and Avenger to those who never repented having wronged Him and His creations.


Allah and His messenger knows best.
Reply

Gintoki
04-11-2013, 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by Good brother
You
1- Believe in Allah
2- Believe in Quran & Muhammad (PBUH)

so, you are nearly officially muslim. Say shahadah, ask Allah to guide you. Allah is just, he doesn't transgress nor do wrong things. Allah is not questionable to his creatures, they are who will be questioned. Allah doesn't punish till he send a messangers as He said in the quran, May Allah help you to remove this satanic doubts. Put your trust in your creator, reject everything that draw you away from him.
Oh thank you clearing that doubt.

Now that i think about it,It is true that i am nearly a Muslim
The doubts i only have left are:
The hell concept
Eternal suffering which a person will go crazy
The Adam and Eve story
Existence of Angels and Devils

But i can't say shahadah till I have fully clear my doubts,Because i guess the shahadah wont count as in my heart i have doubts.
Reply

Gintoki
04-11-2013, 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
I have been getting mixed answers about the fate of non-Muslims

Of course you have. That proves nothing. Is there a single thing you could ask a mixed group of people, especially at a message board, and not receive mixed answers about?

I read 83 pages of the Quran. Yes i believe in those things. But angels and devils are supernatural things.

I think it’s high time to unburden yourself then. If you believe in 83 pages in a row then chances are you believe in the rest too. Everybody has emotional issues from time to time. Learn to recognize them for what they are and then tell your emotions to take a hike. Fill yourself with positive feelings instead. Watch something really funny. Talk a walk amidst pleasant scenery and notice how surrounded you are with sources of thankfulness and praise. Read a book you enjoy.

And according to this source:
islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa4175


What exactly is your point? Judgment Day appears to be a time in which now that the world is coming to a close its laws are starting to be unraveled with it, or something like that. If this is about science then, again, people are going to say different things regarding every topic. "Plurality in beliefs inclineth a man's mind to atheism [but not for an even remotely good reason]."

So devil whispers in our ears and gives us bad intentions. So i did a test on myself,i myself thought of bad intentions,then stopped,then again and process repeats. So yup devil whispering in my ears when it's my own mind thinking that.

Dude, whoever said that no bad intentions ever come from anywhere else on any occasion?!
Of course,like you said it doesn't prove anything. Then in your opinion,what do you think about it? The fate of Non-Muslims.

You read it wrong,i meant i believed in that dark matter and anti-matter etc. By reading the first 83 pages of Quran,it changed my mind set from an atheist to agnostic. Before i was like that there's no way a God can exist and my heart was set on that. I rarely have positive feelings because of my anxiety. But they are times when i think Islam is right and i feel at ease,but that thinking only lasts for a short while. I hate reading books.

No,it's not about science. My point is that after this world ends,another world will be created with new life. And the current and dead life will be heaven and hell. So will God make another test for new souls? In that way the process will keep repeating and it wouldn't stop. After one batch of life and then another.


My point,whenever we think of bad intentions on our own free will,is it the devil who whispers or is it us only?
Reply

Gintoki
04-11-2013, 11:01 AM
Originally Posted by NjmYqlb
:sl:
I think you are referring to my post in the other thread. Yes, that is what i have learned, good deeds of any kind will have its rewards but only those done to please God will be rewarded by Him on judgement day.


The soul has a longing for God, but the soul can be corrupted and the longing silenced. But seriously, are there atheists that haven't heard of God at all in this age? As you might have read in my post on the other thread, for those who never got any message of God from any source, God willing, as stated in Surah Ash-Shams, the conscience/soul will be the final 'failsafe' hope to gain God's mercy.



I used to think like this as well, that it isn't logical. After many years of acquiring knowledge, this is how i understand my place in the scheme of things. I belong to God. As a slave to God he is free to do with me whatever he pleases. Whatever is sent my way, like it or not, I will have to take it. The good, I must thank Him, the bad, I must pray to Him for relief from it. It is due to His mercy that he has blessed me with so many good things in this life, Alhamdulillah. I understand in a lot of literature and media, God is portrayed as being unconditionally forgiving, merciful and loving to all mankind. This may be true at some point of everyone's life but God will also hate, curse and declare war on some people because of what they do or don't do. Allah's name include Al-Muntaqim (The Avenger/Punisher), Al-Mudhill (The Humiliator), Ad-Darr (The Distressor, The Harmer, The Afflictor). So we must beware of His wrath. He is God, the Almighty, He owns us all. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks, all that matters is what He thinks of us on judgement day. He will do whatever He wants whenever He wants. We cannot demand anything of Him, we can only request, so beware.


If you look at the world from another perspective, this planet is a very nice gift from God. It has everything we need to live on it, it is perfect for mankind. Our senses are a gift beyond any value. What would you give and pay to restore your sight should you lose it? God has only given good things to us. So why is there suffering? The suffering are all man made. Even natural disasters are caused by the activities of mankind but that will be even more difficult to explain in here. So all good things come from God, and what have a lot of people done? They thank/worship something/someone else instead, or completely ignore Him, while blaming everything that is wrong on Him. I must say I find it unjust.


God willing, He will be the Most Merciful to those who acknowledge they are His servants while willingly surrender to His will and would be the Ultimate Punisher and Avenger to those who never repented having wronged Him and His creations.


Allah and His messenger knows best.
And what about agnostics who are not sure of existence of God? They might go like 'I'm going to feed the poor,and if there's a God I'm doing it for you.'
As for eternal punishment,how will a person survive that? He would go crazy. They would be no source of entertainment.

Nice article. Yeah I'm pretty sure all most all atheists knows about the existence of God. And what will that final test be for the people who never heard of Islam? Is it mentioned in the Quran?

Yes we belong to God,but I'm still not getting a straightforward answer that how it's logical for 1.5 billion Muslims only too go to heaven. He may have blessed us with alot of things in this life which I'm thankful,but I'm concerned how only minority of people will go to heaven and majority hell.
As for natural disasters,they are the anger of God right?
Reply

Gintoki
04-11-2013, 11:06 AM
Few more questions,
It is said that Night is made for sleep.
But in countries like Netherlands,night lasts long. About 3 days. So night can't be made for sleep for 3 days straight right?

And countries like Japan and china,why wasn't a prophet in the past send to them? There's hardly any Abrahamic believers there.
Reply

Good brother
04-11-2013, 01:22 PM
Read this article:
http://defending-islam.com/page34.html
Reply

NjmYqlb
04-11-2013, 05:18 PM
[QUOTE=Gintoki;1577608]And what about agnostics who are not sure of existence of God? They might go like 'I'm going to feed the poor,and if there's a God I'm doing it for you.'
God willing, He would, but i wouldn't know for certain. His Mercy overcomes His Wrath


[QUOTE=Gintoki;1577608]As for eternal punishment,how will a person survive that? He would go crazy.
The person would survive because there would be no more deaths, every soul tastes death once. Eternal punishment for the sinful soul is the price for not submitting to God the Almighty. Yes there would be a lot of screaming involved but most screaming will be due to regrets. When we are resurrected on judgement day, we are most probably going to be in another dimension. This is due to the prophet mentioning the white stuff he encountered on a level of the sky he passed by on the way up during the night journey, it is going to wash over the earth and we will be remade. That and your query about the new Earth, seems to point to a likely trans dimensional crossing of the Earth. Then, after Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) praises god on the vast plains (Masyhar), the throne of god will descend and everyone will receive their book of deeds where everyone can see everything that they have done. How can you see the entirety of your life on Earth? I'll try to explain a bit more and this is the super summary of a books worth of explanation.


Hypothetically a 1 dimension being can see only length or width or depth seperately. So it can only see a dot or a line. For it to understand a 2 dimensional shape, a square for example, it has to move through a second dimension across the square and see that the line it saw went as deep as its length. Only after going through the entire square it can understand that in 2 dimensions it is a square, while a 2nd dimensional being readily see it as a square.
Now a 2nd dimensional being, can see only 2 dimensional shapes, for it to understand a 3 dimensional object, say a ball, it has to go through the 3rd dimension through the ball, it will see a dot that grows into a circle and shrinks back to a dot. Only after going through the ball can it understand it is a ball shape in 3 dimensional, while a 3rd dimensional being readily see it as a ball.
So a being in a higher dimension will always see the entirety of the characteristics of things in the dimensions below it. We are a 3rd dimensional being, going through a fourth dimension. Only after we go through our entire lives will we know what our life actually is. Then, when we go to a higher dimension, on judgement day, we will see our entire life in all its details with clarity, a dimension above time as we know it. Perhaps we might understand the concept of time better then.
I hope you can follow my explanation above. So God being up and above all dimensions can see clearly every soul and its characteristics. He will know which ones rightly belong in hell for eternity. There will be no respite for those souls. At that time, when all of us see everyones soul with clarity, we will understand why each soul belong where they are sent to, even those in hell for eternity. That is why the screams are of regret rather than of pain.


Originally Posted by Gintoki
And what will that final test be for the people who never heard of Islam? Is it mentioned in the Quran?
Final test? You mean final 'fail-safe'? I'm not sure what you mean actually. I only know that God says he wouldn't punish until one receives His message, and those who purify their souls, follow conscience will succeed, while those who corrupt their souls, go against their conscience will fail. God also says that He will do justice to each and every one of His creation. So for one who never receives God message, God would not hold him/her responsible for sins against Him but sins between the person and God's other creations would be dealt justly, that is where the conscience will protect the person from doing unjust harm to God's other creations and thereby protect the person from getting punished for it.


Originally Posted by Gintoki
Yes we belong to God,but I'm still not getting a straightforward answer that how it's logical for 1.5 billion Muslims only too go to heaven. He may have blessed us with alot of things in this life which I'm thankful,but I'm concerned how only minority of people will go to heaven and majority hell.
I too couldn't give you a 100% factual, logical answer to your assumption that the majority is hell bound. As far as i am concerned, God knows best. However, I do believe mankind has been on this Earth much longer than we know. There are reports of advanced artifacts carbon dated tens of thousands of years old. My point is we don't know how many people have lived on this Earth throughout its history. People of the previous Ummahs were punished swiftly when they forsake God, thus their numbers (those who forsake God) were controlled. Logically that would mean more people who worships God on Earth at any one time during previous Ummahs. The Ummah of Muhammad (peace be upon him) are given respite from immediate punishment, thus allowing the spread of people who forsake God. So the majority of people before us might be going to heaven for all we know. We live in the end times now, where in a lot of cases 'appearance' and 'reality' are opposite to each other. There are people out there today who make it their mission in life to lead people astray so that is why there are so many that don't want to believe or follow God's commandments. The rewards for getting your faith right will also be higher in this age of deception. There are many things we wouldn't know until we enter the other dimension but i would advice you, save yourself. God is the one who guides to the straight path or leads one astray. So ask straight from him for guidance and be patient.


Originally Posted by Gintoki
As for natural disasters,they are the anger of God right?
Yes that is the bottom line, but every human activity involving earth and nature has an effect. One possible instance, as explained by a russian scientist, the Fukushima earthquake, was caused by the nuclear reactors using European uranium instead of Russian uranium, because Putin closed down the Russian Uranium mines, this produced more ionized steam than the reactors were designed to hold. The ionized steam had to be released into the air thereby ionizing the air between the clouds and the bedrock creating an electrical flow from the clouds to the ground. Since the rock contained a lot of quartz, which vibrates when theres electric current passing through, this made the rock easier to move, thereby causing the trigger to the earthquake. I am no geologist but that explanation sounds plausible to me.


Allah and His messenger knows best.
Reply

Gintoki
04-12-2013, 08:38 AM
Oh i understand.

Originally Posted by NjmYqlb
The person would survive because there would be no more deaths, every soul tastes death once. Eternal punishment for the sinful soul is the price for not submitting to God the Almighty. Yes there would be a lot of screaming involved but most screaming will be due to regrets.
The person may be able to survive,but a person can't endure eternal torture. Like i said he/she would go crazy and wished he/she never existed.Why would God punish his creation for eternity if He loves them? For defying the Lord is great offensive in the view of Allah,but eternal suffering is too much.

Originally Posted by NjmYqlb
Yes that is the bottom line, but every human activity involving earth and nature has an effect. One possible instance, as explained by a russian scientist, the Fukushima earthquake, was caused by the nuclear reactors using European uranium instead of Russian uranium, because Putin closed down the Russian Uranium mines, this produced more ionized steam than the reactors were designed to hold. The ionized steam had to be released into the air thereby ionizing the air between the clouds and the bedrock creating an electrical flow from the clouds to the ground. Since the rock contained a lot of quartz, which vibrates when theres electric current passing through, this made the rock easier to move, thereby causing the trigger to the earthquake. I am no geologist but that explanation sounds plausible to me.
So where's the link to God's anger? Sound's like it happen on it's own.
In 2011 Japan had a big earthquake,if God was angry that why they aren't worshiping Him in that country,why Didn't he send any messengers in the past? There's hardly any Abrahamic believers there.
Reply

sister herb
04-12-2013, 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by NjmYqlb
Yes that is the bottom line, but every human activity involving earth and nature has an effect. One possible instance, as explained by a russian scientist, the Fukushima earthquake, was caused by the nuclear reactors using European uranium instead of Russian uranium, because Putin closed down the Russian Uranium mines, this produced more ionized steam than the reactors were designed to hold. The ionized steam had to be released into the air thereby ionizing the air between the clouds and the bedrock creating an electrical flow from the clouds to the ground. Since the rock contained a lot of quartz, which vibrates when theres electric current passing through, this made the rock easier to move, thereby causing the trigger to the earthquake. I am no geologist but that explanation sounds plausible to me.
Sorry if off topic but I wonder haven´t that Russian scientist ever heard about normal moving of continental plates? On that area of the earth it happens daily. That was the most strange explanation to the eartquakes I ever have read.

:hiding:
Reply

NjmYqlb
04-12-2013, 12:30 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Sorry if off topic but I wonder haven´t that Russian scientist ever heard about normal moving of continental plates? On that area of the earth it happens daily. That was the most strange explanation to the eartquakes I ever have read.

:hiding:
Sometimes continental plates get stuck when the surface sliding across each other isn't smooth, causing tension, when the cause of tension becomes weak, the plates violently snaps, causing earthquakes. I assume the scientist meant the vibrations cause the rock that caused the tension to become weak.
Reply

Gintoki
04-12-2013, 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by NjmYqlb
Sometimes continental plates get stuck when the surface sliding across each other isn't smooth, causing tension, when the cause of tension becomes weak, the plates violently snaps, causing earthquakes. I assume the scientist meant the vibrations cause the rock that caused the tension to become weak.
What's the connection with God's anger?
Reply

Good brother
04-12-2013, 03:45 PM
WHY do earthquakes occur?
A student of geology will say they are a result of a sudden release of energy in the Earth’s crust that creates seismic waves. That’s the process of how earthquakes occur, but not an answer to why earthquakes occur.




A better phrased question will be: Who causes earthquakes to occur and why? Allah says in the Qur’an:


Say: ‘He has power to send torment on you from above or from under your feet, or to cover you with confusion in party strife, and make you to taste the violence of one another.’” (Qur’an, 6:65)


Allah sends earthquakes as a punishment for some because of their sins and as a reminder or warning for others to repent and mend their ways. Allah says in the Qur’an:


And We sent not the signs except to warn…” [Qur’an, 17:59]
Just as Allah sends down blessings for His creation in the form of rain, good cultivation and abundance of sustenance, He also sends down warnings and punishments in the form of earthquakes and tsunamis. Allah says:


And whatever of misfortune befalls you, it is because of what your hands have earned. And He pardons much.” [Qur’an, 42:30]


The above verse is of particular importance. It shows that whatever calamity that strikes us is a result of our wrong deeds. Moreover, Allah pardons a lot. Meaning, the punishment doesn’t come except when people have crossed all limits. The place where a calamity strikes may have both good and bad people. When sins rise in a community and a punishment is sent down, it also affects the good people. While that calamity is a punishment for the sinners, it becomes a source of purification or a reminder for the good doers. The Prophet (peace be upon him) used to seek refuge with Allah from His torment and punishment.


Increase in the frequency of earthquakes is also a sign of the Day of Judgment. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “The Hour (Last Day) will not be established until (religious) knowledge will be taken away (by the death of religious learned men), earthquakes will be very frequent, time will pass quickly, afflictions will appear, murders will increase and money will overflow amongst you.” (Al-Bukhari, 2/17 no. 146)


The prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) seems ever approaching. Time is passing by quickly, though the day still has 24 hours. The religiously learned are fewer than the past and crime rate has increased multifold.


Allah says in the Qur’an:


Evil has appeared on land and sea because of what the hands of men have earned, that He (Allah) may make them taste a part of that which they have done, in order that they may return.” [Qur’an, 30:41]


The calamities are not a full recompense, but only a part for what man does. Were we to be punished for all that we do, there would be no creature living on earth.


And if Allah were to punish men for that which they earned, He would not leave a moving (living) creature on the surface of the earth; but He gives them respite to an appointed term, and when their term comes, then verily, Allah is Ever All-Seer of His slaves.” [Qur’an, 35:45]


The purpose of calamities is, as mentioned in the verse quoted earlier, “…in order that they may return.” They are a lesson for us to return to the straight path and to return to the obedience of God. Disasters are a lesson for us to repent to Allah for our sins and reform ourselves. Allah has promised reward and blessings in this life and the hereafter for those who truly turn to Him in repentance.



…Except those who repent and believe (in Islamic Monotheism), and do righteous deeds; for those, Allah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [Qur’an, 25:70]


And if the people of the towns had believed and had the Taqwa (piety), certainly, We should have opened for them blessings from the heaven and the earth, but they belied (the Messengers). So We took them (with punishment) for what they used to earn (polytheism and crimes).” [Qur’an, 7:96]


Refuting atheistic belief


It is unfortunate that some Muslims have also started to speak like atheists. Scoffing when it is told that earthquakes are because of sins and arguing that it is no more than a natural geological activity. First of all atheists have no ground for their assertion because they don’t believe God exists which is the biggest lie ever uttered. It is a direct rejection despite the lucid signs in form of the perfect creation and faultless system created by God.


Their argument about earthquakes being the result of natural geological activity holds no more ground than a claim that this published article on paper or website is a result from the functioning of a machine (printer or computer) without any effort of a human brain behind it that has made it make sense.


Writing and getting it printed is much simpler an activity than the complex and perfect system of this universe that include earthquakes. It is blasphemy to claim that there’s no Almighty Creator controlling and overseeing what is happening in the world.


"By the age, man is indeed at loss, except those who have faith and do good works and (join together) in the mutual teaching of truth, and of patience and perseverance." [Quran103 .1,2,3]


Don't count the days, make the days count.
What should be a Muslim's attitude and response on earthquakes?

A Muslim should take earthquakes and other such signs as admonitions from Allah and hasten to repent, remember Allah and ask forgiveness from Him, as the Messenger of Allah (sallalalhu alaihi wa-sallam) said when there was an eclipse: "If you see anything like that, hasten to remember Him, call on Him and seek His forgiveness." [Saheeh al-Bukharee vol: 2, no: 30 and Saheeh Muslim vol: 2, no: 628] "And whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make a way for him to get out (from every difficulty). And He will provide him from (sources) he never could imagine. And whosoever puts his trust in Allah, then He will suffice him." [Soorah at-Talaaq (65): 2-3]

It is also recommended to show compassion to the poor, give charity because the Messenger of Allah (sallalalhu alaihi wa-sallam) said: "Show mercy, (and) you will be shown mercy." [Musnad Ahmad, vol: 2, no: 165] and: "Those who are merciful will be shown mercy by the Most Merciful. Have mercy on those who are on earth, and the One Who is in heaven will show mercy to you." [Abu Dawood 13/285), at-Tirmidhee 6/43] He (sallalalhu alaihi wa-sallam) also said: "Whoever does not show mercy will not be shown mercy." [Saheeh al-Bukharee 5/75 and Muslim 4/1809]

One of the things, which will keep people safe from such calamities, is to reduce evil deed, apply the Sharee'ah laws, enjoin good and forbid evil: "The believers, men and women, are Awliyaa (friends) of one another; they enjoin al-Maroof (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do), and forbid (people) from al-Munkar (i.e. polytheism and disbelief of all kinds, and all that Islam forbids); they perform As-Salaat and give the Zakaat, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah will have His Mercy on them. Surely, Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise" [Soorah at-Tawbah (9): 71]

Dhulm (Oppression), false-pride and openly committing evil will never go unpunished. One will have to pay in this world and if not then the punishment in the Hereafter is much more severe… So, take heed!!
Preserve what we have from the blessings of Allah for wrongdoing removes blessings; rather it changes it to a curse.

Be warned of an evil end, for Allah gives us a chance but is not neglectful.
What has happened to the previous nations might befall us….

Fortunate person is he who learns from the calamity of others
and the miserable one is he by whom these calamities pass while he takes no lesson from them…

"None feels secure from the Plan of Allah except the people who are the losers."
[Soorah al-Araaf (7): 97-99]

We Ask Allah forgiveness and seek his Mercy and Protection. We ask forgiveness for the dead and Mercy for the living to endure the hardships, to bear the loss and above all to reflect and take a lesson. Aameen.

http://www.khilafatworld.com/2012/03...kes-occur.html

Reply

sister herb
04-12-2013, 05:13 PM
Salam alaykum

Allah of course is behind of everything. We have no idea if earthquakes is part of some of His bigger plans as we humans haven´t knowledge of His plans. But of my mind it is just mistake to see that everything what might cause harm to people by some kind of disastres would be some kind of puninshment or anger.

We can say that what happened in Fukushima was punishment to Japans because most of them are not muslims. We can say that earthquakes in Iran was punishment. We can say that and that without deep knowledge.

To me personally they are just natural happenings, moving of plates or vulcano activities. They all have some bigger meaning - not everytimes some mean of anger or punishment.

People are funny of my mind - they lost so much energy to find meanings to everything . which they haven´t any possibility to understand.

But Allah also gave us kind of nature of mind - asking, investigative and curious.
Reply

Gintoki
04-12-2013, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Allah of course is behind of everything. We have no idea if earthquakes is part of some of His bigger plans as we humans haven´t knowledge of His plans. But of my mind it is just mistake to see that everything what might cause harm to people by some kind of disastres would be some kind of puninshment or anger.

We can say that what happened in Fukushima was punishment to Japans because most of them are not muslims. We can say that earthquakes in Iran was punishment. We can say that and that without deep knowledge.

To me personally they are just natural happenings, moving of plates or vulcano activities. They all have some bigger meaning - not everytimes some mean of anger or punishment.

People are funny of my mind - they lost so much energy to find meanings to everything . which they haven´t any possibility to understand.

But Allah also gave us kind of nature of mind - asking, investigative and curious.
As you said Most of the Japanese people are non-Muslims,and they are like only 1% Muslims in Japan. So why didn't Allah Send messengers in the past to Japan?
Reply

sister herb
04-12-2013, 05:56 PM
Salam alaykum

Why he didn´t send any to Finland?

Or did He but we didn´t noticed?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-12-2013, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
As you said Most of the Japanese people are non-Muslims,and they are like only 1% Muslims in Japan. So why didn't Allah Send messengers in the past to Japan?
listen instead of asking these questions why dont you first establish if you believe in Allah to begin with. then establish if you believe wether or not Muhammad saws is his messenger.

and our prophet wqs sent for all of mankind. nit just a country.

in the past allah sent prophets everywhere sometimes more then one for a people
Reply

sister herb
04-12-2013, 06:05 PM
Salam alaykum

Allah sends invitation to people He has choosen. Why to just some and some others feels they haven´t got any invitation? Why He sended it to me?

I have no idea. It just was Mercy to me.

:embarrass
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-12-2013, 06:09 PM
brilliant answer sister harb

we cannot pretend to know everything. thats what shaytan tried to do


allah has indeed been merciful to us. and he guides whom he wills

if we didnt believe that we wouldnt be muslims. if that wasnt a fact there would be no hell

we need to stop trying to answer everything and spend more time accepting. dhikr and durood helps that. and to accept is to embrace a path towards jannah inshallah

allah knows best

allah is most wise

all is most just
Reply

Good brother
04-12-2013, 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Salam alaykum

Why he didn´t send any to Finland?

Or did He but we didn´t noticed?
wa alaikum assalam

Question

what was happening in other parts of the world at the time of Prophet e.g. present day South Africa, Fiji etc,


Answer


All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad icon1 2 - , is His slave and Messenger.

We are not aware of the condition of the nations in these countries when the Prophet icon1 2 - was commissioned as a Prophet. Rather, we know from the texts of the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah (tradition) of the Prophet icon1 2 - that there has been no nation except that a warner has been sent to it, and no community except that they had a guide.
Allaah The Almighty Says (what means):
• {Indeed, We have sent you with the truth as a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And there was no nation but that there had passed within it a warner.} [Quran 35:24]
• {…and for every people is a guide.} [Quran 13:7]
The nation to which no Prophet has been sent is not lacking guidance and warning from the followers of Prophets who establish the evidence of the message of Allaah The Almighty upon them. Indeed, Allaah The Almighty will not hold someone accountable and He does not punish anyone except after this evidence has been established against him.
Allaah The Almighty Says (what means): {And Allaah would not let a people stray after He has guided them until He makes clear to them what they should avoid. Indeed, Allaah is Knowing of all things.} [Quran 9:115]
Ibn Katheer icon6 1 - said (while interpreting the above verse), "Allaah says about Himself and His just ruling that He does not lead people astray after the message has been sent to them, until the evidence has been established against them, as Allaah Says (what means): {And as for Thamud, We guided them, but they preferred blindness over guidance.} [Quran 41:17]"
Thus, the person whom the message does not reach, or it reaches him but there is a reason that prevents him from adhering to it, is excused. This is reported in the Hadeeth:
“Four types of people will be tested on the Day of Resurrection: a deaf man who cannot hear anything, an insane man, a senile elderly person, and a person who died during the Fatrah (a period of time when no Messenger was sent to people).
The deaf man will say: “O Allaah, Islam came while I could not hear anything!” The insane man will say: “O Allaah, Islam came while the boys used to throw the excrement of animals on me!” The senile elderly man will say: “O Allaah, Islam came while I could understand nothing”. And the man who died during the Fatrah will say: “O Allaah, I witnessed no Messenger from You”. Then Allaah will take a pledge from them to obey Him. Then He will command them to enter Hell, and I swear the One in Whose Hand is my soul, if they enter it, they would find it peaceful and cool).” [Ahmad and Al-Albaani]

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...waId&Id=174533

How can we be sure about the validity of many of the religions of today?
The message of Islam is simply believing in One True Living Undivided GOD Almighty, and not taking any partners such as other people (like Jesus and Mary), or idols with Him. As Allah Almighty said in the Noble Quran:
"Say: 'O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).' (The Noble Quran, 3:64)"
Even though this Noble Verse is talking directly to Jews and Christians, but it is definitely applicable to all of Mankind. This Noble Verse summarizes the whole point of Islam. Allah Almighty created all of Mankind to Worship Him, Glorify Him and Praise Him alone without partners. If an individual, whether he is a Muslim or non-Muslim does that then he/she will please the Almighty GOD.

We know from the Prophetic traditions that over a 120,000 prophets have been sent to people at different stages in human history, to guide the peoples who settled in different lands toward the worship of Allah.

It's reported that some prophets will come at the day of resurrection with just one or 2 followers.

Allaah Knows best.
Reply

sister herb
04-12-2013, 06:37 PM
Salam alaykum

To me just accepting the will was main step to Islam.

Accepting that I might be not so important by my own will but by will of Allah.
Reply

Gintoki
04-12-2013, 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
listen instead of asking these questions why dont you first establish if you believe in Allah to begin with. then establish if you believe wether or not Muhammad saws is his messenger.

and our prophet wqs sent for all of mankind. nit just a country.

in the past allah sent prophets everywhere sometimes more then one for a people
Your point is that i do blind belief? Right.
Reply

sister herb
04-12-2013, 08:01 PM
What you mean as blind belief?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-12-2013, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Your point is that i do blind belief? Right.
my point is you cant understand whats complex before understanding whats basic.

i dint know how you deduced that i am impying blind belief
Reply

sister herb
04-12-2013, 08:17 PM
Person may need to seek belief years. Only advice is to be patient. How long is quite personal. To me find islam it took only 7 years. To someone else it may takes a week, to some other lifetime.
Reply

Gintoki
04-12-2013, 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
What you mean as blind belief?
By not questioning anything and following religion without knowing anything.
Reply

Gintoki
04-12-2013, 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
my point is you cant understand whats complex before understanding whats basic.

i dint know how you deduced that i am impying blind belief
I know the basics. It's the complex things which i have doubts with.
Reply

Gintoki
04-12-2013, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Person may need to seek belief years. Only advice is to be patient. How long is quite personal. To me find islam it took only 7 years. To someone else it may takes a week, to some other lifetime.
If you don't mind me asking,what was your religion before Islam?
Reply

sister herb
04-12-2013, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
By not questioning anything and following religion without knowing anything.
I have been muslims 18 years and I ask questions all the time and seek knowledge every day. And I don´t afraid to questioning matters of islam.

^o)

Do we live in the same planet at all?
Reply

Gintoki
04-12-2013, 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Do we live in the same planet at all?
No.I live in a different planet. I get answers from some people,like just to have Faith in God and tell me not to question my religion. And when i do I'm apparently a 'fool' to them.
Reply

sister herb
04-12-2013, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
If you don't mind me asking,what was your religion before Islam?
I was an atheist before islam. Christian by born but I never believed as Christian.
Reply

sister herb
04-12-2013, 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
No.I live in a different planet. I get answers from some people,like just to have Faith in God and tell me not to question my religion. And when i do I'm apparently a 'fool' to them.
I haven´t never felt to be fool when asking questions. Feel like this might be just in your own mind. Try to get rid of kind of feeling.

:D

It may takes years but be patient.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-12-2013, 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
I know the basics. It's the complex things which i have doubts with.

if you reject th basics why even bother with the complex?
Reply

Karl
04-13-2013, 01:20 AM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
I believe everything is in order,and the world has a perfect system. And they must be a creator governing it.
Some of the reason why i think they should be a God is because of the world's perfect design. The materials in this world such as fruits and vegetables which helps to fight diseases. Even the cancer curing fruit is there. Obviously this can't have happen on the chance. It can't be after coincidence and again coincidence and so on. Plus the the Earth has a special layer which protect us from harmful sun rays. That's why I'm eager to find the truth.But then again my other doubts is confusing me mentally.
God is beyond our comprehension and so is the universe and many sciences still undreamed of. Why worry about it? If God created us He can uncreate us, we are helpless in the cosmos. Maybe too much knowledge is a bad thing. The truth is beyond our comprehension even if we were given the knowledge it would be like reading out War and Peace to a catfish.
Reply

Gintoki
04-13-2013, 07:19 AM
Originally Posted by sister harb
I was an atheist before islam. Christian by born but I never believed as Christian.
What made you decide to revert to Islam?

Originally Posted by sister harb
I haven´t never felt to be fool when asking questions. Feel like this might be just in your own mind. Try to get rid of kind of feeling.

:D

It may takes years but be patient.
No it's not felt,i get called by that from people.


I feel like i need to find the truth fast. I have this feeling that i don't have much time to live,probably because of anxiety.
Reply

Gintoki
04-13-2013, 07:20 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
if you reject th basics why even bother with the complex?
Because i have a problem with the complex?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-13-2013, 10:03 AM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Because i have a problem with the complex?
so you have a problem with the deeper part of something you reject?

its like me caring about trinity when indont accept jesus as the son of god.

why bother?
Reply

Gintoki
04-13-2013, 10:27 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
so you have a problem with the deeper part of something you reject?

its like me caring about trinity when indont accept jesus as the son of god.

why bother?
*Facepalm*
Like i said i have the problems with the complex which is not making me believe the basics. Until i don't get rid of the doubts then it's difficult for me to believe in the basics.But i have no problems with the basics though.
Reply

sister herb
04-13-2013, 10:39 AM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
I feel like i need to find the truth fast. I have this feeling that i don't have much time to live,probably because of anxiety.
Why fast? You need time to think all this mess called religion and only you know how long it takes - I mean your head knows it.

Give you a time.

:statisfie

It may needs 10 years. Or 50.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-13-2013, 10:49 AM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
*Facepalm*
Like i said i have the problems with the complex which is not making me believe the basics. Until i don't get rid of the doubts then it's difficult for me to believe in the basics.But i have no problems with the basics though.
the complex will only make sense after the basics have been accepted

and we are not supposed to know everything as we know our knowledge and understanding is limited. if we understand something it will be because ALlah wished some good for us.

a vety popular hadith is "when Allah wishes good for someone he grants them understanding of the religion". this comes ith deep contemplation and remembrance of Allah.

i hinestly strongly feel that anyone who accepts Allah and his Messenger should become a muslim and ask Allah for the answers in the correct submissive manner. thats how a man can remove all doubt.
Reply

Periwinkle18
04-13-2013, 02:48 PM
Oh dear guess we'll have to start praying for u :) May Allah guide u soon.

Listen my heart tells me ur a really good person you've just been thinking too much u need to relax a bit I would suggest u watch this http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ing-story.html

Isnt it amazing have u ever stopped n thought y reverts get all happy after learning abt Islam.

I believe there's a God because of things that he's done for me I prayed for something once I wanted it so badly n subhanAllah I forgot abt it and after 3 yar I got the thing I wanted n I got it the way I prayed for it does that make sense Lol

U just need to clear ur mind a bit :)

If u keep asking questions you'll end up no where trust me.

Its amazing how u tell us u saw Allah's name in the cloud have u tmever thought abt it mayb Allah wanted to tell you and only u that He's there for u. I mean I've always wanted to see sumfin like that but I never have.

U have no idea how lucky u are you have no idea how much He loves you.

Asking ppl questions won't help ask yourself ask Allah to open ur heart I would suggest u start reading the Quran you'll find ur answers there.

You know what If an atheist goes out to the see n suddenly if something happens n there's a storm n everythings dark n no ones there to help that atheist calls for a God to help too I don't remember the name of the brother buh he once told his story that is how he reverted.Deep down everyone knows there is a God they're just too scared to accept that.

I'll pray for u InshaAllah :)

N hey everythings gng to b ok I just know ur gng to find what ur looking for InshaAllah.
Reply

sister herb
04-13-2013, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
What made you decide to revert to Islam?
I told this before: I got very personal invitation from Allah to seek information about islam and after that to become muslim.

:statisfie

Ok ok it took 7 years but at the last I said shahada when I had learned enough to understand. After few days it comes 18 years when I returned to islam.



Am I an adult then?

happyjumpingsmileyemoticon 1 -
Reply

NjmYqlb
04-13-2013, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Why would God punish his creation for eternity if He loves them? For defying the Lord is great offensive in the view of Allah,but eternal suffering is too much.

Let me try to say this again, God hates, curses and declares war on some people.


Quran (8:55) - Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve
Quran (4:52) - Those are they whom Allah hath cursed..
Quran (2:278-279) - O you who believe! Be afraid of Allah and give up what remains (due to you) from riba (usury) (from now onward), if you are (really) believers. And if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from Allah and His Messenger . . .


Thats means NO more love for those people. Just like satan who is going to hell for all eternity, because they chose to be arrogant. We don't know enough about wrongdoing to see it clearly and how it effects other things. So for people who insist that a sin is not a big sin without complete knowledge, while god who knows everything says it is a big sin, what is that if not arrogance? Then there is the question of the chain of sin.


Jareer ibn 'Abdullaah al-Bajali (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: "The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: 'Whoever starts a good thing and is followed by others, will have his own reward and a reward equal to that of those who follow him, without it detracting from their reward in any way. Whoever starts a bad thing and is followed by others, will bear the burden of his own sin and a burden equal to that of those who follow him, without it detracting from their burden in any way.'" (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, no. 2675. He said, This is a saheeh hasan hadeeth)


People might have excepted that people who forsake god but do good are virtuous, but these people knowingly or not, propagate their ideas to others. If they have offsprings, they will educate the children away from the guidance of God naturally stored in the soul, then those offspring will continue the ideas so on and so forth. God says in the Quran that they feel they know enough.


Quran (5:104) When it is said to them: "Come to what Allah hath revealed; come to the Messenger. They say: "Enough for us are the ways we found our fathers following." what! even though their fathers were void of knowledge and guidance?


So for each of those directly or indirectly corrupted by this idea, the sin is copied 100%. Not to mention all the sin done by those people, because they were corrupted. That is why the sin of the disbeliever (meaning people who got the message but rejected it) is probably infinite. That might be why their punishment is eternal. Allah knows best. Then on the other side of the spectrum are people who propagate good as God teaches, for each person effected by the knowledge, each good that is intended is 100% and each good carried out is 1000%, all that is copied, that is probably why their reward is eternity in Heaven.


I am not sure why you are trying to change the direction to what you implied i meant in my post. Let me backtrack a bit. I posted,


[QUOTE=NjmYqlb;1577548]God has only given good things to us. So why is there suffering? The suffering are all man made.[\QUOTE]


Then you asked me.


[QUOTE=Gintoki;1577608]As for natural disasters, they are the anger of God right?[\QUOTE]


To which i said.


[QUOTE=NjmYqlb;1577656]Yes that is the bottom line.[\QUOTE]


I'll correct myself by agreeing with good brother's post. I don't know why God sends each and every disaster but at least some of it is because God wishes to punish a people (the anger of God). I won't go there further and thank you to Good brother for posting a good explanation


Originally Posted by Gintoki
What's the connection with God's anger?

It is God's will for sure and maybe God's Anger as well but it is also man made. Back to the original context, God gives us good things, the bad are our (mankind's) own doing. Everything happens because God allows it, it is His will. So even for the bad things that happen because we (mankind) made it happen, at the bottom line, it is by the will of God. My point at the start of the natural disaster line of discussion was that mankind bears reponsibility


Quran (64:11) - No kind of calamity can occur, except by the leave of Allah.
Quran (4:79) - Whatever of good reaches you, is from Allah, but whatever of evil befalls you, is from yourself
Quran (42:30) - And whatever of misfortune befalls you, it is because of what your hands have earned. And He pardons much


Originally Posted by Gintoki
Sound's like it happen on it's own.

You don't believe the Japan earthquake has anything to do with what mankind did? Let me try explain another one. Sinkholes are appearing all over the planet. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had said that some of his ummah will be swallowed by the Earth. Why do you think this is happening and will continue to happen? Where do a lot of people get their drinking water from? What happens when you pump that much water out of the ground? What happens to the space left by all that water that has been pumped out? How long would the underground structure (now empty cavities) be able to support the people above it? Can you see how mankind is and will be responsible for the 'natural' disaster? Can you understand how all this is happening because God made the very scientific laws that explains it? And it is not only water that we are pumping out of the ground, what about Oil and Gas? When things start crumbling is it God's fault, or is it mankind's? People know this is happening and what do they do? People say, ah but we need water to drink, gas for our cars.... What happen to all the water on the surface? Who polluted it? Why was it polluted? Why can't we clean it? Why is the cost so high? Why put up with usury and fiat money? Do we really need gas for cars? Why not alternative power generation? This question chain can go on a long time so my point is a lot of things are inter-related.


Touching again the previous topic of eternal punishment, God has taught us how to balance everything but instead of doing what God has taught, most people now insist that experimenting with their own man-made ideas are best, and teaching this to others. I believe they are responsible directly or indirectly, for bringing people away from the very knowledge that can save people in this world and the next. The amount of sin they bear would be beyond comprehension.

Knowledge is good but it is not faith, just like some of the brothers and sisters here are saying. Keep seeking knowledge but also more importantly keep on praying to Allah for faith. There is a reason why there are the 'Pillars of Faith' and why they are not about just learning about God, Angels, Divine Books, God's Messengers, The resurrection and Pre-ordainment. The 'Pillars of Faith' are about believing in them.

Allah and His Messenger knows best
Reply

Hulk
04-14-2013, 04:24 AM
Mr Gintoki, if you have questions directly relating to your original post then I think you can post it in this thread but if it's separate then you might want to make another thread. Haven't been following the thread but it seems like a derailment has taken place.
Reply

Abz2000
04-14-2013, 06:26 AM
verse 38 of chapter 2. البقرة in the Holy Quran

قُلنَا اهبِطوا مِنها جَميعًا ۖ فَإِمّا يَأتِيَنَّكُم مِنّى هُدًى فَمَن تَبِعَ هُداىَ فَلا خَوفٌ عَلَيهِم وَلا هُم يَحزَنونَ


We said: \"Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

What if they lived in a jungle or a desert and they never heard the message?
There are at least two examples:

وَكَذٰلِكَ نُرى إِبرٰهيمَ مَلَكوتَ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالأَرضِ وَلِيَكونَ مِنَ الموقِنينَ

So also did We show Abraham the power and the laws of the heavens and the earth, that he might (with understanding) have certitude.

فَلَمّا جَنَّ عَلَيهِ الَّيلُ رَءا كَوكَبًا ۖ قالَ هٰذا رَبّى ۖ فَلَمّا أَفَلَ قالَ لا أُحِبُّ الءافِلينَ

When the night covered him over, He saw a star: He said: \"This is my Lord.\" But when it set, He said: \"I love not those that set.\"

فَلَمّا رَءَا القَمَرَ بازِغًا قالَ هٰذا رَبّى ۖ فَلَمّا أَفَلَ قالَ لَئِن لَم يَهدِنى رَبّى لَأَكونَنَّ مِنَ القَومِ الضّالّينَ

When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: \"This is my Lord.\" But when the moon set, He said: \"unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray.\"

فَلَمّا رَءَا الشَّمسَ بازِغَةً قالَ هٰذا رَبّى هٰذا أَكبَرُ ۖ فَلَمّا أَفَلَت قالَ يٰقَومِ إِنّى بَريءٌ مِمّا تُشرِكونَ

When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said: \"This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all).\" But when the sun set, he said: \"O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah.

إِنّى وَجَّهتُ وَجهِىَ لِلَّذى فَطَرَ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالأَرضَ حَنيفًا ۖ وَما أَنا۠ مِنَ المُشرِكينَ

\"For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah.\"

Quran 6:75-79

-------------

He guides whom He pleases, and He guides those within whom He finds good, where the stain of evil hasn't overwhelmed the good, would even the man in the jungle not be expected to observe fairness and justice from his natural disposition? Let alone the man in the city who receives the book in his hands:


verse 18 of chapter 39. الزمر in the Holy Quran

الَّذينَ يَستَمِعونَ القَولَ فَيَتَّبِعونَ أَحسَنَهُ ۚ أُولٰئِكَ الَّذينَ هَدىٰهُمُ اللَّهُ ۖ وَأُولٰئِكَ هُم أُولُوا الأَلبٰبِ

Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.

------
verse 23 of chapter 8. الأنفال in the Holy Quran

وَلَو عَلِمَ اللَّهُ فيهِم خَيرًا لَأَسمَعَهُم ۖ وَلَو أَسمَعَهُم لَتَوَلَّوا وَهُم مُعرِضونَ

If Allah had found in them any good. He would indeed have made them listen: (As it is), if He had made them listen, they would but have turned back and declined (Faith).
-------





And finally, I assume you'll go back to worrying about the man in the jungle who didn't see or hear, or the son of bush, the best answer to give is the answer of Moses to pharaoh when he asked of the condition of the previous generations, God Knows best.

But there is a small glimmer of hope for you, maybe see if you fall into any of the categories in the checklist:

The Pen is Lifted From Three
The Messenger of Allah (صلي الله عليه وسلم) said: “The Pen is lifted from three (i.e., their deeds are not recorded):

a child until he reaches puberty;
an insane man until he comes to his senses;
one who is asleep until he wakes up.”
[Recorded in Abu Dawud #4403, and Ibn Majah #2041]
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-14-2013, 07:24 PM
Sorry, I’ve been out of town for a few days and didn’t bring my laptop.

Look, Gintoki, there’s a lot to catch up with but it all boils down to this:

Like i said i have the problems with the complex which is not making me believe the basics. Until i don't get rid of the doubts then it's difficult for me to believe in the basics.But i have no problems with the basics though.

The fact of the matter is, you read eighty-three pages of The Qur’an in a row and it got you all the way from “atheist” to “agnostic”. Doesn’t that tell you something, either about the book or about your own heart? Probably both?

But it’s okay because you still have every chance to turn back. Not because of “the fate of” anybody in the hereafter (certainly not all non-Muslims!—and I’m getting tired of going over that with you, especially after we've had a whole recent thread on it)—but because it’s the right thing to do. I’m not the first person to observe this but God is of such a nature that even if by some impossible measure all of His power could be taken away we would still owe him just as much loyalty as we do now just on general principles. I mean, we’re here in the first place because of Him, for one thing.

I wonder if your notion that the creation of the world will keep repeating is based on that hadith which says, “After that Allah will create a new creation,” or something like that. I think it’s just referring to the resurrection of a new kind of body from dust and bones.

Does it matter where evil suggestions come from? Does one apply this kind of ad hominem-based thinking to human agencies? If someone does the wrong thing, will you care if the person who told them that it’s a good idea is Steve from down the street or Jackie from one town over or even the talking dog who purportedly gave the go-ahead to David Berkowitz? Truth is truth and falsity falsity and good good and evil evil regardless of where it happens to come from. And yes, these things have a way of coming from different places. The Qur’an speaks of everyone having a demon who goes to work on them—but it never says that no evil suggestions ever come from anywhere else. Indeed, it instructs us in its closing verses to pray for protection from evil suggestions “from amongst both djinn and humans”.
Reply

sister herb
04-14-2013, 07:35 PM
Hello Mr Gintoki

We all looking the truth. We are muslims and we too are looking the truth. Rest of our lives. We may find it and we may lost it. But we continue searching the knowledge.

Welcome to club.

:statisfie
Reply

Gintoki
04-15-2013, 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Why fast? You need time to think all this mess called religion and only you know how long it takes - I mean your head knows it.

Give you a time.

:statisfie

It may needs 10 years. Or 50.
Well,fast because I think i don't have much time to live because of my anxiety.
Reply

Gintoki
04-15-2013, 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
the complex will only make sense after the basics have been accepted

and we are not supposed to know everything as we know our knowledge and understanding is limited. if we understand something it will be because ALlah wished some good for us.

a vety popular hadith is "when Allah wishes good for someone he grants them understanding of the religion". this comes ith deep contemplation and remembrance of Allah.

i hinestly strongly feel that anyone who accepts Allah and his Messenger should become a muslim and ask Allah for the answers in the correct submissive manner. thats how a man can remove all doubt.
Aren't the basics like Tauheed and articles of faith?

The doubts:
The hell concept
Eternal suffering which a person will go crazy
The Adam and Eve story
Existence of Angels and Devils

^I don't think those things comes in the basics.
Reply

Gintoki
04-15-2013, 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by Periwinkle18
I'll pray for u InshaAllah

N hey everythings gng to b ok I just know ur gng to find what ur looking for InshaAllah.
Thank you. :statisfie

That was a nice video. I also used to be like 'God please give me a sign anything'.
Reply

Gintoki
04-15-2013, 01:37 PM
Originally Posted by NjmYqlb
Touching again the previous topic of eternal punishment, God has taught us how to balance everything but instead of doing what God has taught, most people now insist that experimenting with their own man-made ideas are best, and teaching this to others. I believe they are responsible directly or indirectly, for bringing people away from the very knowledge that can save people in this world and the next. The amount of sin they bear would be beyond comprehension.

Knowledge is good but it is not faith, just like some of the brothers and sisters here are saying. Keep seeking knowledge but also more importantly keep on praying to Allah for faith. There is a reason why there are the 'Pillars of Faith' and why they are not about just learning about God, Angels, Divine Books, God's Messengers, The resurrection and Pre-ordainment. The 'Pillars of Faith' are about believing in them.
Now i don't see how it's the person fault for educating their offspring if they themselves didn't know the truth? Many Atheists themself are trying to seek the truth if a God exists or not,not people like Richard Dawkins who are absolutely convinced that there's no Creator. Still how the eternal punishment is justified?
God is kind and Just,so why allow His creature so bear the unbearable pain?Doesn't God know it will hurt al ot?

So every bad thing happens because God allows it,because it's will. Why does He want bad things to happen?

Well sinkholes and Earthquakes are different. Yes sinkholes are man-made. But Earthquake is caused is because of the rubbing of plates,no?
Reply

Gintoki
04-15-2013, 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by Hulk
Mr Gintoki, if you have questions directly relating to your original post then I think you can post it in this thread but if it's separate then you might want to make another thread. Haven't been following the thread but it seems like a derailment has taken place.
Oh,okay. Sorry.
Reply

Gintoki
04-15-2013, 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Sorry, I’ve been out of town for a few days and didn’t bring my laptop.

Look, Gintoki, there’s a lot to catch up with but it all boils down to this:

Like i said i have the problems with the complex which is not making me believe the basics. Until i don't get rid of the doubts then it's difficult for me to believe in the basics.But i have no problems with the basics though.

The fact of the matter is, you read eighty-three pages of The Qur’an in a row and it got you all the way from “atheist” to “agnostic”. Doesn’t that tell you something, either about the book or about your own heart? Probably both?

But it’s okay because you still have every chance to turn back. Not because of “the fate of” anybody in the hereafter (certainly not all non-Muslims!—and I’m getting tired of going over that with you, especially after we've had a whole recent thread on it)—but because it’s the right thing to do. I’m not the first person to observe this but God is of such a nature that even if by some impossible measure all of His power could be taken away we would still owe him just as much loyalty as we do now just on general principles. I mean, we’re here in the first place because of Him, for one thing.

I wonder if your notion that the creation of the world will keep repeating is based on that hadith which says, “After that Allah will create a new creation,” or something like that. I think it’s just referring to the resurrection of a new kind of body from dust and bones.

Does it matter where evil suggestions come from? Does one apply this kind of ad hominem-based thinking to human agencies? If someone does the wrong thing, will you care if the person who told them that it’s a good idea is Steve from down the street or Jackie from one town over or even the talking dog who purportedly gave the go-ahead to David Berkowitz? Truth is truth and falsity falsity and good good and evil evil regardless of where it happens to come from. And yes, these things have a way of coming from different places. The Qur’an speaks of everyone having a demon who goes to work on them—but it never says that no evil suggestions ever come from anywhere else. Indeed, it instructs us in its closing verses to pray for protection from evil suggestions “from amongst both djinn and humans”.
Yes it did change my mind set. I don't really really know if that book or my heart tells me something. But i was hit by that statement that like God can give us life and death,surely he can resurrect us. Don't know why that statement hit me.

It's clear that the fate of Non-Muslims is eternal hell.

Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

It said before Prophet(PBUH),the jews,christians and sabeans wouldn't have to worry,as Quran wasn't revealed at that time. But I'm talking about the fate of them after Prophet(PBUH) and the present people.

Besides it is said that Shirk is an unpardonable sin. So Christians thinking Jesus is God is unforgivable. Meaning the devotion that Christians and Jews did to their lord was a waste of time in front of Allah's eyes,when in their they believed that their religion is the correct one. So yes,Majority of them are going to hell forever. :/

Yes the evil suggestions matters. As i need proof that devils exist.
As i told you before that i did a test on myself,and that evil suggestions come to my mind because i think about them. And it doesn't make sense as I'm the one who keeps thinking about the wrong things ,then stop and then again. A devil can't be whispering in my ears. Every human is born selfish and not perfect,so yes,of course they would do evil deeds.
But to answer your question, I would care if that person who did the wrong thing was my son,and keep him away from jack and Steve for making him a bad person.
Now it would have been logical if that devil whispering in my ears and the thought came on his own without me thinking anything.
Reply

Periwinkle18
04-15-2013, 02:18 PM
^ while praying have u ever noticed things just keep popping in ur head even though u don't want think abt them n u want to concentrate on ur salah , phones numbers u couldn't remember or where u kept the car keys all sorts of stuff comes to ur mind you don't want to think abt them you want to pray buh somehow they still come don't u think those are whisperings of shaitan?? I mean you didn't want to think abt ur car keys you were trying to focus on ur salah these distractions have u ever thought where do they come frm??

We're all here to help InshaAllah :) you'll find what ur looking for v soon n the signs they're everywhere.

Just yest my frnd tagged me in a picture she cut an apple n found Allah written inside v clear. N I was like wow I was talking abt ur cloud incident Allah showed it to me in an apple. :)

Allah is very very near.
Reply

جوري
04-15-2013, 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
God is kind and Just,so why allow His creature so bear the unbearable pain?Doesn't God know it will hurt al ot?
Al-Anbiya (The Prophets)[21:23]attention 3 - [RECITE]
[top] [next match]
21 23 1 -
La yusalu AAamma yafAAalu wahum yusaloona
21:23 He cannot be questioned for His acts, but they will be questioned (for theirs).

___________

I rather think God is infinitely just & merciful seeing how much work goes into making the body (biochemical/physiological) function per day that folks take for granted and still desirous of more and more and more in every aspect of their lives and still God gives, gives gives, and worse yet folks are completely ungrateful not only ungrateful but quizzical and even more standing an open opponent:

36:77 to top

36 77 1 -
Sahih International
Does man not consider that We created him from a [mere] sperm-drop - then at once he is a clear adversary?

36:78 to top

36 78 1 -
Sahih International
And he presents for Us an example and forgets his [own] creation. He says, "Who will give life to bones while they are disintegrated?"

a pharmaceutical company will charge you $500,000 for Elaprase a single enzyme if you're missing it and yet you don't even consider at all that you've it working for you and what of the ramifications if missing.. a doctor will charge how much for a knee replacement and yet you'd show humility & gratitude and he an ego for some thing that would still require revision some five years down the line and you have the audacity to question 'eternal punishment'


419. Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: I heard Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) saying, "When Allah created the creatures, He wrote in the Book, which is with Him over His Throne: `Verily, My Mercy prevailed over My Wrath"
[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

anything people receive by way of punishment is thoroughly deserved..


50 29 1 -
Sahih International
The word will not be changed with Me, and never will I be unjust to the servants."

:Allah: :swt: is the judge of all judges and the king of kings..
you don't wish to subscribe to his laws which are so little.. he asks for so little which would help you in this life and the next, then go be on your own do your thing and question us not.. take your grievances on the day of recompense.

best,






Reply

IAmZamzam
04-15-2013, 03:22 PM
It’s clear that the fate of Non-Muslims is eternal Hell...It said before Prophet(PBUH),the jews,christians and sabeans wouldn't have to worry,as Quran wasn't revealed at that time. But I'm talking about the fate of them after Prophet(PBUH) and the present people.

Last time I checked 2:62 is in the present tense and speaks in very general terms. It certainly doesn’t sound to me like your interpretation is at all sensible. In fact it’s in my experience that if you look carefully it actually tends to be those verses which can be tossed about in a more fire-and-brimstone, everybody-but-us-out-of-the-pool manner which tend to, in context, refer to the immediate historical situation (i.e. it’s these locals at the time who are d-a-m-n-e-d if they reject their prophet).

EDIT: You know, there really is no reason why shouldn't be able to say the word "d-a-m-n" at a religious message board. I mean, you can say "hell", can't you? What's up with that??

Besides it is said that Shirk is an unpardonable sin.

“God charges no soul save to its capacity; standing to its account is what it has earned, and against its account what it has merited. Our Lord, take us not to task if we forget, or make mistake.” (2:286, Arberry) Remember that the full and literal meaning of kafir is “one who holds the truth within his heart”. It’s impossible to commit shirk completely innocently. If it is an absolutely innocent mistake, without any corner of their psyche knowing any better, then they will be pardoned for it—hence 2:62.

Yes the evil suggestions matters. As i need proof that devils exist.

What on earth would suffice as proof?? What do you expect us to do, man, cut one’s head off and bring it to you on a plate on anchovies???

As i told you before that i did a test on myself,and that evil suggestions come to my mind because i think about them. And it doesn't make sense as I'm the one who keeps thinking about the wrong things ,then stop and then again. A devil can't be whispering in my ears.

You’ve been deliberately been thinking evil things? Dude, are you sure they haven’t been in your head?! Anyway this test doesn’t make any sense anyhow given that, once again, I never denied that evil influenced come from other places too and neither does The Qur’an, which explicitly states that there are human ones. It’s called “whispering” for a reason. It’s supposed to be subtle. You’re not meant to recognize the source. Under ideal conditions they might even catch you at a moment when you’re very distracted—which certainly doesn’t apply to the situation you’ve described, but it does apply to most classic temptations.

Every human is born selfish and not perfect,so yes,of course they would do evil deeds.

No one is ever born with evil traits. We are all born in a state of innocence and submission. The notion isn’t even philosophically sound. A cloth which has just been made cannot yet be stained, can it?

But to answer your question, I would care if that person who did the wrong thing was my son,and keep him away from jack and Steve for making him a bad person.

Evasion. You knew very well what the point was. If a man was to be kept away from the hazards of the course, there would hardly be any point in trying him to begin with.
Reply

sister herb
04-15-2013, 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Well,fast because I think i don't have much time to live because of my anxiety.
Only Allah knows how much you have time to live. You may die today or live 100 years old.

:D
Reply

Ahmad H
04-16-2013, 05:01 AM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Yes it did change my mind set. I don't really really know if that book or my heart tells me something. But i was hit by that statement that like God can give us life and death,surely he can resurrect us. Don't know why that statement hit me.

It's clear that the fate of Non-Muslims is eternal hell.

Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

It said before Prophet(PBUH),the jews,christians and sabeans wouldn't have to worry,as Quran wasn't revealed at that time. But I'm talking about the fate of them after Prophet(PBUH) and the present people.

Besides it is said that Shirk is an unpardonable sin. So Christians thinking Jesus is God is unforgivable. Meaning the devotion that Christians and Jews did to their lord was a waste of time in front of Allah's eyes,when in their they believed that their religion is the correct one. So yes,Majority of them are going to hell forever. :/

Yes the evil suggestions matters. As i need proof that devils exist.
As i told you before that i did a test on myself,and that evil suggestions come to my mind because i think about them. And it doesn't make sense as I'm the one who keeps thinking about the wrong things ,then stop and then again. A devil can't be whispering in my ears. Every human is born selfish and not perfect,so yes,of course they would do evil deeds.
But to answer your question, I would care if that person who did the wrong thing was my son,and keep him away from jack and Steve for making him a bad person.
Now it would have been logical if that devil whispering in my ears and the thought came on his own without me thinking anything.
You are wrong to think that anyone is going to Hell forever. It doesn't matter what anyone thought about this issue, but Allah only punished evil for its like, and rewards a good deed ten times over (6:160). Therefore, if Allah is Just, which He is, then He does not punish anyone beyond this measure. He doesn't wrong anyone, but they wrong themselves.

As for what is constituted as Shirk being unforgivable, does it mean it never to be forgiven ever, or is it only unforgiven in this life? It is obvious that it is only unforgiven in this life, but as for the Hereafter, it is punished. This does not mean the punishment is infinite. Again, evil is merited with its like. Shirk is not an infinite sin. But, any punishment given will certainly FEEL like forever. That much is certain.

As for who goes to Hell or not, that is all up to Allah to decide. You cannot go judging Allah as to what He will judge when the Day of Judgment hasn't happened yet. Don't go making assumptions on what He decides. Do you know better or does the All-Knowing Allah know better? The belief is that Allah always knows better and He always makes the best decisions because only He knows what is in people's hearts. Islam is about Allah rewarding everyone according to the intentions in their hearts. Only the absolutely wretched and the worst people go to Hell, not just anyone. Perhaps if a lot of people go to Hell, then it means that there are that many foul and wretched people out there. Who am I to judge? Only Allah judges. He knows everyone better than they know themselves. Therefore, you cannot decide if Allah is Merciful or not.
Reply

Gintoki
04-16-2013, 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by Periwinkle18
^ while praying have u ever noticed things just keep popping in ur head even though u don't want think abt them n u want to concentrate on ur salah , phones numbers u couldn't remember or where u kept the car keys all sorts of stuff comes to ur mind you don't want to think abt them you want to pray buh somehow they still come don't u think those are whisperings of shaitan?? I mean you didn't want to think abt ur car keys you were trying to focus on ur salah these distractions have u ever thought where do they come frm??

We're all here to help InshaAllah :) you'll find what ur looking for v soon n the signs they're everywhere.

Just yest my frnd tagged me in a picture she cut an apple n found Allah written inside v clear. N I was like wow I was talking abt ur cloud incident Allah showed it to me in an apple. :)

Allah is very very near.
Then possibly it could be whispers of the devil. Does it happen to more people also?

If you don't mind,can you show me the picture of the apple? :p
Reply

Gintoki
04-16-2013, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
you don't wish to subscribe to his laws which are so little.. he asks for so little which would help you in this life and the next, then go be on your own do your thing and question us not.. take your grievances on the day of recompense.
I agree with that logic of we not being grateful to Allah.Everything you said was right,but that didn't quiet answered my question.
Yes i have the audacity to question eternal punishment as it contradicts the nature of God. It is said He is just and merciful,then why let his creation suffer in hell for all eternity? If Allah wanted his creations to suffer the hell fire forever then why create him/her in the first place?
People who murdered and commited rape to countless women might be justified,but an innocent atheist ? I don't think so.
"...this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for he committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit them. He said: "It may be otherwise, Oh 'A'isha, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father's loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father's loins."

^ This tells that Allah has already decided the fate of His creations whether go goes to hell and heaven.

Sigh. Where did i say i don't 'wish' to subscribe to his laws? I'm trying to find the truth here,of course I'm going to question things either you like it or not. Okay i won't question you.
Reply

Gintoki
04-16-2013, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Evasion. You knew very well what the point was. If a man was to be kept away from the hazards of the course, there would hardly be any point in trying him to begin with.
Then what is your interpretation about Quran 2:62?
http://quran.com/2/62

It's clearly written before Prophet(SAW)

So you're saying that the Christians and Jews will be pardoned as it was an innocent mistake?

You're the one who believes in devils,surely they must be proof,no?

Yes i deliberately have been thinking about evil things,and no,they haven't been in my head as i thought about it myself.
Yes it's called whisper for a reason but in your Muslims point of view,the bad thoughts come because the devil whispers. But i myself deliberately thought about those bad things.
Like i said the whispers would make sense if the bad intention came out of nowhere ,but I'm talking about how i myself thought about those bad intentions and didn't come out nowhere.

And no,i didn't know what the point was. I just answered honestly.
Reply

Periwinkle18
04-16-2013, 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Then possibly it could be whispers of the devil. Does it happen to more people also?

If you don't mind,can you show me the picture of the apple? :p
Yup happens to everyone I guess have u ever watched videos by baba Ali?? He mentions it in one of his vids as well so that means I'm not the only one Lol :p

Sure will show it to u. :)

Akhi I just hope u understand soon this deen is beautiful I tell srsly bee you tea full!! =)
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-16-2013, 03:33 PM
I’m glad you brought that up, Ahmad. I was thinking about it too but I didn’t want to be the first. “Until the camel goes through the eye of the needle” is an old Middle Eastern figure of speech which involves a certain amount of possible hyperbole, the way that idioms so often will. The Arabic word abada can mean “lasting”; it doesn’t have to mean “permanent”. The variant khalada can mean “a long duration”. Qur’an 11:106-108 refers to both the blessed and the condemned as being placed in their respective abodes in the hereafter to remain there forever “save as thy Lord will”—but it specifies only that the blessed have “a gift unbroken” (Arberry); it does not say the same about the condemned. ibn Taymiyya and ibn Qayyim have written about this before.
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-16-2013, 03:53 PM
It’s clearly written before Prophet(SAW)

I’m tired of people inserting things in brackets when they translate The Qur’an. We’re not supposed to add to the words of our Lord. There’s nothing “clear” about that. I’ve always seen the verse translated in the present tense before.

So you’re saying that the Christians and Jews will be pardoned as it was an innocent mistake?

I’m sorry, have I not made myself clear two or three times by now? Yes, that is what I’m saying.

You're the one who believes in devils,surely they must be proof,no?

If by “proof” you mean some kind of fossil or something then it would hardly matter. People would still find some kind of flimsy reason to call it a fake. In fact this reason, no matter how faulty, would become widely accepted by the scientific community and any scientist who found fault with the general consensus would get verbally dope-slapped and shunned by their peers. I dare you to look me in the eye and tell me I’m wrong. After all that’s what’s happened with psi. All those oodles and oodles and oodles and oodles of experiments proving its reality...well, don’t exist. Even textbooks refuse to acknowledge it. Because scientists are human beings and human beings (at least in large, organized groups defined by common beliefs) are stubborn and traditionalistic and refuse to accept change or even any non-traditional viewpoints about anything. If you don’t believe me then just wait for all the vituperations to pour into this very thread over the way that anyone here has dared to defy scholarly majority on hell lasting forever.

Yes i deliberately have been thinking about evil things,and no,they haven't been in my head as i thought about it myself.

Would you ordinarily have deliberately thought about evil things? Put two and two together, man. There’s more than one way to skin the cat. It’s a possibility, is what I’m saying. If it was as simple as our always knowing that the thoughts came from somewhere else then I don’t know if their little game could ever have worked. It would hardly make sense. We’d be onto them almost all the time, wouldn’t we?

Yes it's called whisper for a reason but in your Muslims point of view,the bad thoughts come because the devil whispers. But i myself deliberately thought about those bad things.

The bad thoughts, for the third or fourth time, come from “among both djinn and humans” (Qur’an 114:6).

“...this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for he committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit them. He said: ‘It may be otherwise, Oh ‘A’isha, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father’s loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father’s loins.”

^ This tells that Allah has already decided the fate of His creations whether go goes to hell and heaven.


If it really did mean that then it would contradict Qur’an 2:10 and therefore be false but I don’t think it does mean any such thing. You haven’t shown the full context but it looks like it could just saying that Allah has already knows where to send somebody since He knows all.
Reply

جوري
04-16-2013, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
I agree with that logic of we not being grateful to Allah.Everything you said was right,but that didn't quiet answered my question.
I saw no questions, rather the same old rhetoric of atheists.
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Yes i have the audacity to question eternal punishment as it contradicts the nature of God
Who defined the 'nature of God' to you? is it something you concluded in your own head?
Originally Posted by Gintoki
If Allah wanted his creations to suffer the hell fire forever then why create him/her in the first place?
Rather God has made us the promise of immortality and eternal happiness but made it a choice!

Originally Posted by Gintoki
People who murdered and commited rape to countless women might be justified,but an innocent atheist ? I don't think so.
Justice isn't about what you reason in your thoughts or by the measure of your personal compass!

Originally Posted by Gintoki
^ This tells that Allah has already decided the fate of His creations whether go goes to hell and heaven.
Rather it speaks of the creation of man from the Earth, its good and its bad!
Weed grows amidst the harvest, there is what is cultivated and that which is to be binned and you have a choice in the matter and it looks clear that you've made yours!

Originally Posted by Gintoki
Sigh. Where did i say i don't 'wish' to subscribe to his laws?
I haven't suggested your desire to subscribe to his laws, rather the opposite and I can already tell that it doesn't matter how many replies you receive you'll be dissatisifed as you already posed the questions & provided the replies.
Good luck with all that!

best,
Reply

Periwinkle18
04-16-2013, 08:00 PM
Here u go its not that clear my frnd took it from her iPad cam didn't come out good buh I cn see it in the middle :)

IMG20130417WA0002 zps011d2c8c 1 -

IMG20130416WA0007 zpsfc91502f 1 -
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-16-2013, 08:04 PM
gintoki you need to return to Allah as soon as possible.

please dont die upon disbelief... just take all your doubts and still accept islaam and struggle against your doubts as a muslim and not a kafir.


if you find that logic is failing yiu and answers are not found then approach a rightly guided scholar who practises tasawwuf and ask him to help you and Allah may grant you underatanding.

remember most people accepted islam due to the prophet saws. likewise maybe you need a guiding light who has knowledge and practises the inner aspects of the religion.
Reply

Gintoki
04-17-2013, 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
You are wrong to think that anyone is going to Hell forever. It doesn't matter what anyone thought about this issue, but Allah only punished evil for its like, and rewards a good deed ten times over (6:160). Therefore, if Allah is Just, which He is, then He does not punish anyone beyond this measure. He doesn't wrong anyone, but they wrong themselves.

As for what is constituted as Shirk being unforgivable, does it mean it never to be forgiven ever, or is it only unforgiven in this life? It is obvious that it is only unforgiven in this life, but as for the Hereafter, it is punished. This does not mean the punishment is infinite. Again, evil is merited with its like. Shirk is not an infinite sin. But, any punishment given will certainly FEEL like forever. That much is certain.

As for who goes to Hell or not, that is all up to Allah to decide. You cannot go judging Allah as to what He will judge when the Day of Judgment hasn't happened yet. Don't go making assumptions on what He decides. Do you know better or does the All-Knowing Allah know better? The belief is that Allah always knows better and He always makes the best decisions because only He knows what is in people's hearts. Islam is about Allah rewarding everyone according to the intentions in their hearts. Only the absolutely wretched and the worst people go to Hell, not just anyone. Perhaps if a lot of people go to Hell, then it means that there are that many foul and wretched people out there. Who am I to judge? Only Allah judges. He knows everyone better than they know themselves. Therefore, you cannot decide if Allah is Merciful or not.
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
I’m glad you brought that up, Ahmad. I was thinking about it too but I didn’t want to be the first. “Until the camel goes through the eye of the needle” is an old Middle Eastern figure of speech which involves a certain amount of possible hyperbole, the way that idioms so often will. The Arabic word abada can mean “lasting”; it doesn’t have to mean “permanent”. The variant khalada can mean “a long duration”. Qur’an 11:106-108 refers to both the blessed and the condemned as being placed in their respective abodes in the hereafter to remain there forever “save as thy Lord will”—but it specifies only that the blessed have “a gift unbroken” (Arberry); it does not say the same about the condemned. ibn Taymiyya and ibn Qayyim have written about this before.
Intentions doesn't matter. As for the good deeds being rewarded ten times,that only applies to Muslims.
Because whether an atheist did a good thing,it won't count as he didn't believed in God.
Wait? Hell not eternal?
Islam teaches that hell is eternal, you cant honestly believe that God would let people off easily after they rejected him for so many years, its a myth people have bought up to try and make their life easy and coax themselves into believing they can get into paradise easily and god will forgive them.

They say, ‘The Fire will only touch us for a number of days.’ Say, ‘Have you made a contract with God - then God will not break His contract - or are you rather saying about God what you do not know?’ No indeed! Those who accumulate bad actions and are surrounded by their mistakes, are the Companions of the Fire, remaining in it timelessly, for ever. (Surat al-Baqarah: 80-81)

^This verse says 'forever' .

As for those who are rebellious and wicked, their abode will be the Fire. Every time they wish to get away from it, they will be forced into it, and they will be told: ‘Taste the Penalty of the Fire, which you were wont to reject as false.’ (Surat as-Sajdah: 20)

^ Shows there's no escape from hell.

Those who are disbelievers will be driven to Hell in companies and when they arrive there and its gates are opened its custodians will say to them, ‘Did Messengers from yourselves not come to you, reciting your Lord’s Signs to you and warning you of the meeting on this Day of yours? ’They will say, ‘Indeed they did, but the decree of punishment is justly carried out against the disbelievers.’ They will be told, ‘Enter the gates of Hell and stay there timelessly, for ever. How evil is the abode of the arrogant!’ (Surat az-Zumar: 71-72)

^ Again the words forever are used.


“They will long to leave the Fire, but never will they leave there from; and theirs will be a lasting torment.” (Quran 5:37)


“And they will never leave of the Fire.” (Quran 2:167)


“Surely, those who disbelieve and did wrong; Allah will not forgive them, nor will He guide them to any way except the way of Hell, to dwell therein forever.” (Quran 4:168-169)

“And whosoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, then surely, for him is the fire of Hell, he shall dwell therein forever.” (Quran 72:23)

Majority of the scholars have agreeded on the fact that hell is forever. It's only the minority point of view that hell isn't forever.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-17-2013, 02:44 PM
ahmad H be careful of putting your own interpretation beore the true interpretation. people will be in hell forever.
Reply

Gintoki
04-17-2013, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
If it really did mean that then it would contradict Qur’an 2:10 and therefore be false but I don’t think it does mean any such thing. You haven’t shown the full context but it looks like it could just saying that Allah has already knows where to send somebody since He knows all.
I think there's no fossil evidence which would support the existence of devils. You're not wrong about this science thing,in fact you're right. But i don't think science can prove a supernatural evidence.All I'm looking for is logic.

Would you ordinarily have deliberately thought about evil things?

No. But my point is a evil thing which i intentionally thought about myself can't be the whispers of the devil.

I half agree that bad intentions which come out of the blue without thinking anything is a sign that it's the whispers of the devil.
There's a difference between our own free will thoughts and thoughts which came out of the blue.
Your point is that those bad intentions which i intentionally thought,apparently came from the devil. Now i don't find that logical cause while thinking,my brain is using and didn't come out nowhere. It's my freewill.

In their hearts is disease, so Allah has increased their disease; and for them is a painful punishment because they [habitually] used to lie.

How does it contradict? I don't see any connection.
Reply

Gintoki
04-17-2013, 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
I saw no questions, rather the same old rhetoric of atheists.

Who defined the 'nature of God' to you? is it something you concluded in your own head?

Rather God has made us the promise of immortality and eternal happiness but made it a choice!

Justice isn't about what you reason in your thoughts or by the measure of your personal compass!

Rather it speaks of the creation of man from the Earth, its good and its bad!
Weed grows amidst the harvest, there is what is cultivated and that which is to be binned and you have a choice in the matter and it looks clear that you've made yours!

I haven't suggested your desire to subscribe to his laws, rather the opposite and I can already tell that it doesn't matter how many replies you receive you'll be dissatisifed as you already posed the questions & provided the replies.
Good luck with all that!

best,
Allah has 99 attributes and one of them are his Mercifulness,Kindness. Which contradicts his nature for allowing his Creation to suffer in hell forever.

Then what is Justice in your opinion?

I can already tell that it doesn't matter how many replies you receive you'll be dissatisifed as you already posed the questions & provided the replies.
You can think whatever you want,but I'm somewhat having my doubts erased slowly.
Reply

Periwinkle18
04-17-2013, 02:53 PM
Akhi how are you going to believe in the unseen if you keep asking for logics?
.
If you keep searching for logics you'll just get stuck there you won't move forward.
Reply

Gintoki
04-17-2013, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
I haven't suggested your desire to subscribe to his laws, rather the opposite and I can already tell that it doesn't matter how many replies you receive you'll be dissatisifed as you already posed the questions & provided the replies.
Good luck with all that!
Allah has 99 attributes and one of them are his Mercifulness,Kindness. Which contradicts his nature for allowing his Creation to suffer in hell forever.

Then what is Justice in your opinion?

I can already tell that it doesn't matter how many replies you receive you'll be dissatisifed as you already posed the questions & provided the replies.
You can think whatever you want,but I'm somewhat having my doubts erased slowly.
Reply

Gintoki
04-17-2013, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by Periwinkle18
Here u go its not that clear my frnd took it from her iPad cam didn't come out good buh I cn see it in the middle :)

IMG20130417WA0002 zps011d2c8c 1 -

IMG20130416WA0007 zpsfc91502f 1 -
Nice. Is the Alif written?
Reply

Periwinkle18
04-17-2013, 02:58 PM
Not that clear akhi buh my frnd said it was clear :)

The min she told me abt the apple reminded me of what I wrote in my previous post that I've always wanted to see something like tht n Alhumdulilah I did :)
Reply

Gintoki
04-17-2013, 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
gintoki you need to return to Allah as soon as possible.

please dont die upon disbelief... just take all your doubts and still accept islaam and struggle against your doubts as a muslim and not a kafir.


if you find that logic is failing yiu and answers are not found then approach a rightly guided scholar who practises tasawwuf and ask him to help you and Allah may grant you underatanding.

remember most people accepted islam due to the prophet saws. likewise maybe you need a guiding light who has knowledge and practises the inner aspects of the religion.
I think one of the conditions of accepting Islam is believing in Prophet(SAW) and Allah.
I believe they should be a God,though I'm not sure about Prophet(SAW),going to have to watch some lectures to get convinced that he's indeed the last messenger then i will accept Islam.
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Periwinkle18
04-17-2013, 02:59 PM
Well we'll pray for u InshaAllah :)
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جوري
04-17-2013, 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Allah has 99 attributes and one of them are his Mercifulness,Kindness. Which contradicts his nature for allowing his Creation to suffer in hell forever.
Yes but there are other attributes as well, even though mercy overtakes his wrath per my previous post, :Allah::swt: doesn't love evil or evil doers and they'll be punished!

Originally Posted by Gintoki
Then what is Justice in your opinion?
Justice isn't about my opinion or yours. It is about :Allah::swt: judgement!

Originally Posted by Gintoki
I'm somewhat having my doubts erased slowly
Ok!

best,
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IAmZamzam
04-17-2013, 03:53 PM
1. Temptation and influence can never exist but for free will. What of it?

2. What Qur’an 2:10 is saying is, “They have already done wrong, and I have increased their wrongdoing as a punishment for that. It’s poetic justice: ‘If you’re going to insist on being so stupid, fine then! Have all of it you want, and more of it besides!’”

3. I don’t even know what this is all about: “Islam teaches that hell is eternal, you cant honestly believe that God would let people off easily after they rejected him for so many years, its a myth people have bought up to try and make their life easy and coax themselves into believing they can get into paradise easily and god will forgive them.” What on earth...?? Whoever said it’s necessarily easy for anyone? We were only talking about possibility. Rejection, literally by definition, cannot occur entirely and on all levels by mistake. To answer your question from earlier the final test for people who didn’t know about monotheism (to name just one example of this alleged easiness), is that they are commanded to walk into hell willingly after it’s made clear to them just Who is issuing the command. Only it turns out to be heaven that they’re actually walking into. That sound easy to you?

We’ve already been over the linguistics of "forever" and it’s getting to where I just refuse to dignify these reverse ad hominems and fallacies of appeals to the majority with a response anymore (“Be careful of putting your own interpretation before the ‘true’ interpretation” is about the most telling way I’ve ever heard anyone put it!), if only because it’s never any use doing so. The collective mind of the ummah is completely and ridiculously closed when it comes to anyone ever questioning 50.1% or more of our precious scholars about anything. It’s like nobody out there understands that it’s the least bit possible to strike a balance between recognizing that there’s a limit to your own knowledge and still thinking for yourself, instead of checking your brain at the security gate because unless you have certain certifications hanging on your wall thought is not needed around here. Suffice to say it’s only to be expected that “every time someone wishes to get away from [hell] they will be driven back into it”. Nobody ever claimed anyone will get out on their own. Hell is not a place you can just escape from. I never said that my own viewpoints dictate reality. But notice just how quickly people jump to the conclusion that the viewpoints of scholarly majority automatically do, all the time, period, the end, and that’s that! The contrast there speaks for itself.

And if it is true that hell always is eternal? You’ll notice that no one ever calls it unfair for people to be rewarded forever for their finite virtues. It's a double standard, man. You can't complain about one thing but not the other.
Reply

Ahmad H
04-17-2013, 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Intentions doesn't matter. As for the good deeds being rewarded ten times,that only applies to Muslims.
Because whether an atheist did a good thing,it won't count as he didn't believed in God.
Wait? Hell not eternal?
Islam teaches that hell is eternal, you cant honestly believe that God would let people off easily after they rejected him for so many years, its a myth people have bought up to try and make their life easy and coax themselves into believing they can get into paradise easily and god will forgive them.

They say, ‘The Fire will only touch us for a number of days.’ Say, ‘Have you made a contract with God - then God will not break His contract - or are you rather saying about God what you do not know?’ No indeed! Those who accumulate bad actions and are surrounded by their mistakes, are the Companions of the Fire, remaining in it timelessly, for ever. (Surat al-Baqarah: 80-81)

^This verse says 'forever' .

As for those who are rebellious and wicked, their abode will be the Fire. Every time they wish to get away from it, they will be forced into it, and they will be told: ‘Taste the Penalty of the Fire, which you were wont to reject as false.’ (Surat as-Sajdah: 20)

^ Shows there's no escape from hell.

Those who are disbelievers will be driven to Hell in companies and when they arrive there and its gates are opened its custodians will say to them, ‘Did Messengers from yourselves not come to you, reciting your Lord’s Signs to you and warning you of the meeting on this Day of yours? ’They will say, ‘Indeed they did, but the decree of punishment is justly carried out against the disbelievers.’ They will be told, ‘Enter the gates of Hell and stay there timelessly, for ever. How evil is the abode of the arrogant!’ (Surat az-Zumar: 71-72)

^ Again the words forever are used.


“They will long to leave the Fire, but never will they leave there from; and theirs will be a lasting torment.” (Quran 5:37)


“And they will never leave of the Fire.” (Quran 2:167)


“Surely, those who disbelieve and did wrong; Allah will not forgive them, nor will He guide them to any way except the way of Hell, to dwell therein forever.” (Quran 4:168-169)

“And whosoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, then surely, for him is the fire of Hell, he shall dwell therein forever.” (Quran 72:23)

Majority of the scholars have agreeded on the fact that hell is forever. It's only the minority point of view that hell isn't forever.
These are translations, thus they are interpretations of the actual words of the Qur'an. And not all scholars believe that the punishment of Hell is forever. It is not my own interpretation that Hell is just for a very long time. Iamzamzam explained it well, he told you about the two key terms used in the Qur'an.

As for these other verses you used, another fact to point out is that the Qur'an is based upon the principle of justice. Allah is Most Wise, and He knows best in the end. Let's say for the sake of argument that I am wrong, and that the punishment of Hell is forever. Even then, my interpretation doesn't merit any ill intentions. I believe this view over the view that Hell is forever, simply because I believe Allah is Most Gracious, and Most Merciful. He said when He created the Heavens and the Earth, "My Mercy precedes My wrath." If His mercy precedes His wrath, then how can His wrath ever go on forever? I believe He is the Most Just, and He punishes evil only for its like. It is not a sin to think this, as my belief is in Allah's best wishes for all human beings. He loves us 100 times more than our parents love us, so how can He send us to Hell forever even though we were the worst creatures? Even if a person was the Antichrist, their mother would still love them and want good for them after they suffered punishment. Punishment is meant to fix a person, not condemn them for good.

That being said, anyone who disagrees with me has no reason to do so. I simply accept Allah's Mercy is far greater than His punishment. It is an indisputable fact. Allah does not wrong anyone by even at atom's weight. So how can He punish someone for a length of time indefinitely? What if someone became a disbeliever after they were a believer and died a disbeliever? That person suffers infinite punishment, like everyone else who was far worse? Unbelievable. I believe in Allah's Mercy. I don't think believing in that would ever merit me being a bad Muslim either, should anyone think that.

As for the comment that intentions don't matter, I advise you to listen to us before you start making things up yourself. There are so many verses of Qur'an and Ahadith that tell us that Allah only looks at intentions behind deeds and not deeds only, that you would never mistake it again. I shouldn't have to quote those. If your parents taught you anything of Islam, one of those had to have been intentions. If they honestly did not and you want quotes from the Qur'an and Ahadith, then I will post them for you. It's just I am short on time right now so I am merely stating things right now. I apologize if you might get frustrated at that. I probably would.
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Ahmad H
04-17-2013, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
ahmad H be careful of putting your own interpretation beore the true interpretation. people will be in hell forever.
I wasn't making my own interpretations on this subject. I am very serious when I say that the punishment in Hell is not forever.
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Gintoki
04-18-2013, 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
And if it is true that hell always is eternal? You’ll notice that no one ever calls it unfair for people to be rewarded forever for their finite virtues. It's a double standard, man. You can't complain about one thing but not the other.
Again,i don't see the connection man. He might have increased their wrongdoings as a punishment,but i don't see how it contradicts the other verse about God already decided that who will go to hell.
Final test seems fair,though won't the majority be scared to even think about going inside hell?

Yes,there's a limit to the scholar's knowledge. But how many percent of scholars agree to the fact that hell is eternal? I think about 90% but i could be wrong..
Last i heard,Quran is very clear,but regarding this topic it's not.
And as for Prophet(SAW) companions,how did they know that hell fire isn't eternal?

Let's assume if you and Ahmad H are right,after their time in hell,where would they go?

And if it is true that hell always is eternal? You’ll notice that no one ever calls it unfair for people to be rewarded forever for their finite virtues. It's a double standard, man. You can't complain about one thing but not the other.

Manly people question this is because as Ahmad H said ,God is kind and his Mercy overcomes His wrath,Why would his wrath go on forever? That's why I'm especially questioning this as it sounds contradictory as His Nature is kind.

Btw forgot to question this before,as you said before the scientific facts were not known in Arabia at that time,but couldn't have it have been known if people migrated to Arabia and shared that scientific knowledge with the Arabians?
Reply

Gintoki
04-18-2013, 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
1. Temptation and influence can never exist but for free will. What of it?
We are getting nowhere it seems,I just need a straightforward answer that how the devils whispers in our ears but it's really our thinking. Our mind being used to think,not random thoughts.
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Gintoki
04-18-2013, 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
As for the comment that intentions don't matter, I advise you to listen to us before you start making things up yourself. There are so many verses of Qur'an and Ahadith that tell us that Allah only looks at intentions behind deeds and not deeds only, that you would never mistake it again. I shouldn't have to quote those. If your parents taught you anything of Islam, one of those had to have been intentions. If they honestly did not and you want quotes from the Qur'an and Ahadith, then I will post them for you. It's just I am short on time right now so I am merely stating things right now. I apologize if you might get frustrated at that. I probably would.
Since they are interpretations of the actual words of the Quran,then shouldn't they be accurate? Not all,but majority does.
I look from the Majority > Minority point of view.

That was what exactly i was thinking,His wrath can't go on for eternity.

Listening,and I'm not making things up. I read several places that Non-Muslims like atheist wont get awarded as they did the good deeds to only feel good and get fame instead of doing it for Allah. Correct me if wrong.

And yes,do post the quotes.
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Periwinkle18
04-18-2013, 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
We are getting nowhere it seems,I just need a straightforward answer that how the devils whispers in our ears but it's really our thinking. Our mind being used to think,not random thoughts.
Umm you dont think abt evil things all the time do you?? Sometimes stuff just pops up in ur head things you weren't even thinking outta no where doesn't it happen to u??
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Gintoki
04-18-2013, 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by Periwinkle18
Umm you dont think abt evil things all the time do you?? Sometimes stuff just pops up in ur head things you weren't even thinking outta no where doesn't it happen to u??
Not all the time. As for the things popping up in my head,i haven't quiet noticed that.
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Gintoki
04-18-2013, 11:41 AM
Would appreciate if someone can post a good lecture proving that Prophet(SAW) was the messenger of God.
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Periwinkle18
04-18-2013, 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Not all the time. As for the things popping up in my head,i haven't quiet noticed that.
Hmm well it does happen, shaitan just whispers n those who end up doing those things commit a sin.

Alhumdulilah you've never noticed it n ignore them :)
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IAmZamzam
04-18-2013, 12:56 PM
Again,i don't see the connection man. He might have increased their wrongdoings as a punishment,but i don't see how it contradicts the other verse about God already decided that who will go to hell.

Keyword: their.

Final test seems fair,though won't the majority be scared to even think about going inside hell?

Of course they will. That’s why it’s a test. Would there be any point to it if he had been telling them to walk into The Naked Co-Ed Pillow Fight Room?

Yes,there's a limit to the scholar's knowledge. But how many percent of scholars agree to the fact that hell is eternal? I think about 90% but i could be wrong..

There is no limit to human fallibility, whether those humans are individuals or collective groups. But I sometimes wonder if the herd mentality dominates human society more than anything else in the world. When those collective groups agree on anything that tends to have a profound effect on the individual psyche, doesn’t it? That’s why we have peer pressure, for instance. If you’re going to agree with the herd then make absolutely sure that it’s for some valid reason and not because the majority of some respected body of authorities has said so. And it’s too late for that because you’ve already effectively admitted that this time it isn’t. Don’t even try to tell me (or yourself) that I’ve misunderstood you.

Last i heard,Quran is very clear,but regarding this topic it's not. And as for Prophet(SAW) companions,how did they know that hell fire isn't eternal?

I don’t know if I even understand the question. The same way that they knew anything else I suppose.

Let's assume if you and Ahmad H are right,after their time in hell,where would they go?

Heaven, obviously.

Manly people question this is because as Ahmad H said ,God is kind and his Mercy overcomes His wrath,Why would his wrath go on forever? That's why I'm especially questioning this as it sounds contradictory as His Nature is kind.

“His mercy overtakes His wrath” refers, I suspect, to the repeated scriptural statements about how His punishments meet only the crimes whereas He rewards many, many times over. His mercy is in greater abundance is the long and the short of it anyway.

Btw forgot to question this before,as you said before the scientific facts were not known in Arabia at that time,but couldn't have it have been known if people migrated to Arabia and shared that scientific knowledge with the Arabians?

There are a couple of things like the roundness of the earth which are at least possible. But where exactly would they have been living where they knew to describe the embryo as a leech/clot, or that heaven was once a vapor and even now consists of something much like massed cloud, and so forth? Besides, you just said, “It’s not about science.” I actually was relieved to hear that. Science seems to be the only thing people are interested in these days.

I’ve learned, over time, to stop trying to focus on where my own bad thoughts are coming from and just focus on trying to deal with them, personally. As I’ve told you such thinking is just self-focused ad homimen attacks: thinking about who said something instead of what was being said. What matters is whether you are sinning. And look what’s happened to you: in caring so much about proving whether djinn can get into your head you have willingly let them in, first thinking evil things on purpose, and then refusing to acknowledge just what a peculiar thing this is—on the sole, sophistical grounds that, technically speaking, it was you doing the thinking! What does it matter, dude? Let the thoughts come from Al Roker for all the difference it makes, just don’t think them anymore, okay? This is a trifle. It’s hardly the most important of doctrines. Why don’t you forget we ever talked about it?
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-18-2013, 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Periwinkle18
Hmm well it does happen, shaitan just whispers n those who end up doing those things commit a sin.

Alhumdulilah you've never noticed it n ignore them :)
no sis dontnagree there.

the fact that he left islam proves shaytans whispers have simply been masked so well from his heart that he couldnt percieve it. the heart should be in a constant struggle against the nafs and the devil so its impossible for one aware to not notice it unless he completely gives in and becomes desensitised. hence my advice to accept islam to become more sensitive and then struggle to be more aware
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Gintoki
04-19-2013, 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
I’ve learned, over time, to stop trying to focus on where my own bad thoughts are coming from and just focus on trying to deal with them, personally. As I’ve told you such thinking is just self-focused ad homimen attacks: thinking about who said something instead of what was being said. What matters is whether you are sinning. And look what’s happened to you: in caring so much about proving whether djinn can get into your head you have willingly let them in, first thinking evil things on purpose, and then refusing to acknowledge just what a peculiar thing this is—on the sole, sophistical grounds that, technically speaking, it was you doing the thinking! What does it matter, dude? Let the thoughts come from Al Roker for all the difference it makes, just don’t think them anymore, okay? This is a trifle. It’s hardly the most important of doctrines. Why don’t you forget we ever talked about it?
Okay,so the Keyword is their. Punishment increased for wrongdoing,but doesn't change the fact He has already decided who will go where.

I'm only going to agree with the majority of the herd if it's logical. Quran has made it clear that hell fire is forever,though i could be wrong. No one knows for sure. As majority of the scholars agree that it's eternal and the term 'forever' has been used in a lot of places,that's why I agree with them. Though hopefully I'm wrong,as i said God loves us creations more than our mother loves us,it would be sensible for Him to not make the punishment forever as punishment is meant to learn mistakes and i can't imagine God wanting his creations to suffer eternal torture.

I don’t know if I even understand the question. The same way that they knew anything else I suppose.

And couldn't they possibly just imagined it wrong and forgot it was eternal?

As for discovering embryo,yes that only could have been from the divine. But the shape of the earth,and the process of evaporation,the explanation whether the Earth rotated or the sun was discovered before i think. So my question is couldn't those information have been spread via migration of people to Arabia?


I would deal with them if i know it was the jinn doing. How can i willingly let them in? I don't think at all it's peculiar.
It matters because i find Islam logical,but this thing isn't logical as its my own thinking. I don't have the issue with the bad thoughts but i want to know the logic why when my own brain think of a bad thought on purpose is said to be the jinn doing according to you Muslims.

Let me give you few examples.
I get the thought of stealing my friend's expensive mobile,though this is my intention,i won't do it as i don't mean it,nonetheless it's a bad thought,no? But this was my own thought which i thought in purpose.

Another example,

I get the thought I'm going to abuse my neighbors for being so loud,but i won't do it as i know it's wrong,again i thought this on purpose,but didn't committed the action.

Another example,
I say I'm going to watch some dirty videos,which i thought on purpose,but i won't actually do it,but i on purpose thought that.


But let's assume I do watch the video,was it my own free will or the jinn doing?


Like i said before,i just need the logic that how this thing works.It may not be that much of an importance to you,but I'm researching and want my doubts clear.
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Periwinkle18
04-19-2013, 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
no sis dontnagree there.

the fact that he left islam proves shaytans whispers have simply been masked so well from his heart that he couldnt percieve it. the heart should be in a constant struggle against the nafs and the devil so its impossible for one aware to not notice it unless he completely gives in and becomes desensitised. hence my advice to accept islam to become more sensitive and then struggle to be more aware
hmm :hmm:
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IAmZamzam
04-19-2013, 03:21 PM
The word abada does not have to mean “forever”, nor does its variant. Even barring that The Qur’an says of both heaven and hell that people will remain there except as Allah wills, but it adds only as regards the people of heaven that their gift is unbroken. The same passage does not include a similar note about the people of hell. I’ve already said all of this.

And if you agree that it is our own wrongdoing then I fail to see what you think the problem is. Our own wrongdoing. We may say, in our human language, “Allah has already decided,” but He is, in all likelihood, omnitemporal. Remember that one of His ninety-nine names is “the all-Encompassing”. Screwtape sums up the weirdness of human confusion over this issue very well in “The Screwtape Letters” by C.S. Lewis:

You...will find it difficult to understand how [man] gets into this confusion. But you must remember that he takes Time for an ultimate reality. He supposes that [God], like himself, sees some things as present, remembers others as past, and anticipates others as future; or even if he believes that [He] does not see things that way, yet, in his heart of hearts, he regards this as a peculiarity of [His] mode of perception—he doesn’t really think (though he would say he did) that things as [God] sees them are things as they are!

If you tried to explain to him that men’s prayers today are one of the innumerable coordinates with which [God] harmonises the weather of tomorrow, he would reply that then [He] always knew men were going to make those prayers and, if so, they did not pray freely but were predestined to do so. And he would add that the weather on a given day can be traced back through its causes to the original creation of matter itself—so that the whole thing, both on the human and on the material side, is given “from the word go”. What he ought to say, of course, is obvious to us; that the problem of adapting the particular weather to the particular prayers is merely the appearance, at two points in his temporal mode of perception, of the total problem of adapting the whole spiritual universe to the whole corporeal universe; that creation in its entirety operates at every point of space and time, or rather that their kind of consciousness forces them to encounter the whole, self-consistent creative act as a series of successive events. How [that creative act leaves room for their free will] is no problem at all; for [God] does not foresee the humans making their free contributions in a future, but sees them doing so in His unbounded Now. And obviously to watch a man doing something is not to make him do it.


You can willingly let in any sort of bad influence. There have been many experiments confirming the existence of human telepathy (amongst the ganzfeld experiments, for example, and even by the famous atheist Stanley Koren), so the idea of thoughts being transmitted from an unknown source shouldn’t be too much of a stretch.

But I’m getting a little tired of arguing. Look: “That could only have been from the divine.” Your own words. Nonetheless followed by a “but”. Gintoki, just take the shahadah already, will you please? “No soul knows just what comfort is laid up for it unseen” if it does.
Reply

Gintoki
04-22-2013, 08:11 AM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
But I’m getting a little tired of arguing. Look: “That could only have been from the divine.” Your own words. Nonetheless followed by a “but”. Gintoki, just take the shahadah already, will you please? “No soul knows just what comfort is laid up for it unseen” if it does.
Does the same go for Abu Lahab who was one of the bitterest enemies of Islam?

Btw took the shahada last night. Though i said the words in very low voice,does it count?
Said it twice.
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Periwinkle18
04-22-2013, 08:48 AM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Does the same go for Abu Lahab who was one of the bitterest enemies of Islam?

Btw took the shahada last night. Though i said the words in very low voice,does it count?
Said it twice.
Omg omg omg Mabrook akhi!!! Nemo's v happy may Allah bless u keep u guided on the right path ameen may He grant u jannah ul firdos ameen

I just knew u would find what I were looking for :D

:)
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IAmZamzam
04-22-2013, 01:05 PM
Bless you, brother!

And as for Abu Lahab, I've made a post about that before:

You know, I've had similar thoughts myself about Satan. Being a free agent he could, in theory, repent—but apparently he won't. We've been told that before. The same was true of Abu Lahab. It's just a matter of what an omniscient being has let us in on in advance, that's all. If this is a matter of confusion between divine foreknowledge and divine predetermination (you know, the old "how could anyone have free will if God knows what we're going to do yada yada yada?"), I got tired of explaining that to people years ago. To summarize there is nothing hard to grasp about the idea of knowing and doing being two different things: for example my correctly predicting to you now that the sun is going to rise in the east tomorrow does not mean that I'm personally spinning the earth in its orbit myself. These matters are complicated only if you make them that way….

Doubt strikes everyone from time to time, including disbelievers, even physicalist atheists. They just don’t talk about it as much, perhaps because they’re afraid of us and see religious people as a bunch of annoying proselytizing parasites who will always latch onto you like a leech and refuse to let go at the first sign of weakness, or perhaps because they’re so often extremely adept at Spock-like intellectualization of their problems, typically by way of the power of semantics, in which case they’ll have at least ten different multisyllabic euphemisms for “doubt” at the ready (and even that word will be carefully buried beneath two thousand others in their blog). It’s a good thing, in the same way that strain and tearing is a good thing for your muscles. Without it how could you ever build them up? But what is the safe way to exercise? To do it in a controlled environment, and with utmost caution. Remember that this started when you gave up your prayers.
Reply

Ahmad H
04-22-2013, 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
I would deal with them if i know it was the jinn doing. How can i willingly let them in? I don't think at all it's peculiar.
It matters because i find Islam logical,but this thing isn't logical as its my own thinking. I don't have the issue with the bad thoughts but i want to know the logic why when my own brain think of a bad thought on purpose is said to be the jinn doing according to you Muslims.

Let me give you few examples.
I get the thought of stealing my friend's expensive mobile,though this is my intention,i won't do it as i don't mean it,nonetheless it's a bad thought,no? But this was my own thought which i thought in purpose.

Another example,

I get the thought I'm going to abuse my neighbors for being so loud,but i won't do it as i know it's wrong,again i thought this on purpose,but didn't committed the action.

Another example,
I say I'm going to watch some dirty videos,which i thought on purpose,but i won't actually do it,but i on purpose thought that.


But let's assume I do watch the video,was it my own free will or the jinn doing?


Like i said before,i just need the logic that how this thing works.It may not be that much of an importance to you,but I'm researching and want my doubts clear.
No thought which is evil is considered to be bad for a Muslim, unless they actually do it. This was mentioned in a Hadith in the Sunan. But since I've been through literally thousands of them before I can't remember where it is. Fact is, a bad deed is not recorded if it is only an evil thought, it has to have actually happened. So your bad thoughts are not considered punishable, but if you act according to those thoughts with those intentions in mind, then you are rewarded in punishment according to the evil you did. No more, no less.

And no evil thought is from an outside source, it is only from within ourselves. We choose to do evil because we eventually act upon it. Satan is not some Jinn being that is invisible made out of fire who goes to every person to tempt them. It is impossible, since his task varies in human population. Imagine, there were maybe a couple of thousand humans around at one point, and now there is 7.5 billion. Would you honestly think that Satan is some singular being, who goes to EVERYONE in the world? No. This idea is just a fantasy concocted by those who lack insight into this. Satan is within us and he exists as long as humans exist. Our evil comes from us, and nowhere else.

For example, would a Prophet say, "Satan made me forget" because they forgot to do something themselves, or because they wanted to lay blame on Satan? Anyone who thinks this means that Satan literally made such a person forget what they had to do, is wrong. The Holy Qur'an tells us that when Satan appears on the Day of Judgment (however that is, we don't understand the reality of it, but we accept it as it is) then he will say that he told us to do something, and we did it. he had no power over us. He simply suggested things to us and we did it. These suggestions, again, are from our own minds. A Prophet of Allah is a responsible person, and whatever they do, even if it is something where they killed someone by mistake, like Hazrat Musa (as), lays the blame on themselves. Did he stay in Egypt and argue that Satan did that punch to the Pharaoh, or he did? Obviously he committed it. He did not dispute that.

So read up on the verses that have to do with Satan specifically in the Qur'an. Go and research those and then you will come to a much more clear idea of what it is talking about. Remember, there is no contradiction in the Qur'an. The verses explain each other. Do a search on a website with a searchable Qur'an and type in "Satan" or "Devil". It'll make your research a lot easier. And use Tafsir Ibn Kathir to see other similar verses for different verses if you find you want to know more about what one verse is saying. That makes things easier as well. Topic-based research on the Qur'an makes it altogether easier to figure out. It also makes the Tafsirs easier to understand too.
Reply

Gintoki
04-23-2013, 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
So read up on the verses that have to do with Satan specifically in the Qur'an. Go and research those and then you will come to a much more clear idea of what it is talking about. Remember, there is no contradiction in the Qur'an. The verses explain each other. Do a search on a website with a searchable Qur'an and type in "Satan" or "Devil". It'll make your research a lot easier. And use Tafsir Ibn Kathir to see other similar verses for different verses if you find you want to know more about what one verse is saying. That makes things easier as well. Topic-based research on the Qur'an makes it altogether easier to figure out. It also makes the Tafsirs easier to understand too.
Oh okay,and what about the thing you said God judges by our intentions in our heart? I said to you as a response that Non-believers who rejected God won't get any reward as he did it for fame and not for the God. Oh And i'm not making this up,i read this in several places,if you want i would gladly provide you the link to it.


P.S The above question is the last one for this thread,then will make separate threads for separate questions.
Thank you to everyone who replied.
Reply

Hulk
04-23-2013, 01:48 PM
Alhamdulillah I am happy to know that you have decided to take that first step. There are people who learn about Islam and yet even before they start learning they've decided that whatever they learn will not affect them in any way, what kind of learning is that? It's like promising yourself before learning something that you're not going to let it be of benefit to you.

In Islam the pursuit of knowledge is very important. The more you learn the firmer your conviction will be. Like adding soil to a plant that is planted to make it firmer. Of course, one has to learn the proper way. Learning the wrong way can be destructive to oneself :)
Reply

Naeema
04-23-2013, 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Btw took the shahada last night. Though i said the words in very low voice,does it count?
Said it twice.
Masha'Allah!

I have no idea what the official ruling is on this, but I say if you embraced Islam in your heart, then it counts. As I've posted elsewhere, I'm on a very slow path, and this is exactly what I did. First I said it to myself. (Then I said it a few more times over days.) Then I said it with a witness. I am not ready to have a big public embracing of religion - it's too high a standard for me.

From your first post, I remember that you're a "born" muslim, but I think that on your way back to fully embracing Islam it's OK if you act a bit more like a revert and don't try to do everything perfect at once. Do what you can now. I'd rather see you grow in your faith and practice slowly than get discouraged and go away again.

And Allah knows best.
Reply

Ahmad H
04-23-2013, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
Oh okay,and what about the thing you said God judges by our intentions in our heart? I said to you as a response that Non-believers who rejected God won't get any reward as he did it for fame and not for the God. Oh And i'm not making this up,i read this in several places,if you want i would gladly provide you the link to it.


P.S The above question is the last one for this thread,then will make separate threads for separate questions.
Thank you to everyone who replied.
Yes, I believe you in that. The Hadith is the following:

It has been narrated on the authority of Sulaiman b. Yasar who said: People dispersed from around Abu Huraira, and Natil, who was from the Syrians. said to him: O Shaikh, relate (to us) a tradition you have heard from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He said: Yes. I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: The first of men (whose case) will be decided on the Day of Judgment will be a man who died as a martyr. He shall be brought (before the Judgment Seat). Allah will make him recount His blessings (i. e. the blessings which He had bestowed upon him) and he will recount them (and admit having enjoyed them in his life). (Then) will Allah say: What did you do (to requite these blessings)? He will say: I fought for Thee until I died as a martyr. Allah will say: You have told a lie. You fought that you might be called a" brave warrior". And you were called so. (Then) orders will be passed against him and he will be dragged with his face downward and cast into Hell. Then will be brought forward a man who acquired knowledge and imparted it (to others) and recited the Qur'an. He will be brought And Allah will make him recount His blessings and he will recount them (and admit having enjoyed them in his lifetime). Then will Allah ask: What did you do (to requite these blessings)? He will say: I acquired knowledge and disseminated it and recited the Qur'an seeking Thy pleasure. Allah will say: You have told a lie. You acquired knowledge so that you might be called" a scholar," and you recited the Qur'an so that it might be said:" He is a Qari" and such has been said. Then orders will be passed against him and he shall be dragged with his face downward and cast into the Fire. Then will be brought a man whom Allah had made abundantly rich and had granted every kind of wealth. He will be brought and Allah will make him recount His blessings and he will recount them and (admit having enjoyed them in his lifetime). Allah will (then) ask: What have you done (to requite these blessings)? He will say: I spent money in every cause in which Thou wished that it should be spent. Allah will say: You are lying. You did (so) that it might be said about (You):" He is a generous fellow" and so it was said. Then will Allah pass orders and he will be dragged with his face downward and thrown into Hell. (Book #020, Hadith #4688)
(Sahih Muslim)

God judges everything by intention.

Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended. So whoever emigrated for worldly benefits or for a woman to marry, his emigration was for what he emigrated for." (Book #1, Hadith #1)
(Sahih Bukhari)

An evil thought is not recorded as a bad deed, unless it is actually committed. Then it is as if only that evil is done. But when a good deed is done, then that is recorded as ten good deeds. This is meant for the Muslims:

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: The Great and the Glorious Lord said (to angels): Whenever My bondsman intends to corn it an evil, do not record it against him, but if he actually commits it, then write it as one evil. And when he intends to do good but does not do it, then take it down is one act of goodness, but if he does it, then write down ten good deeds (in his record). (Book #001, Hadith #0233)
(Sahih Muslim)

In fact, in another narration, this one evil thought, if avoided, is then recorded as a good deed since the Muslim thought of doing an evil, but they actually did not do it:

Abu Huraira reported that Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), said: When it occurs to my bondsman that he should do a good deed but he actually does not do it, record one good to him, but if he puts it into practice, I make an entry of ten good acts in his favour. When it occurs to him to do evil, but he does not commit it, I forgive that. But if he commits it, I record one evil against his name. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed. The angels said: That bondsman of Yours intends to commit evil. though His Lord is more Vigilant than he. Upon this He (the Lord) said: Watch him; if he commits (evil), write it against his name but if he refrains from doing it, write one good deed or him, for he desisted from doing it for My sake. The Messenger of Allah said: He who amongst you is good of faith, all his good acts are multiplied from ten to seven hundred times (and are recorded in his name) and all the evils that he commits are recorded as such (i, e. without increase) till he meets Allah. (Book #001, Hadith #0235)
(Sahih Muslim)

If a non-believer did something good, then unless he has done it for Allah's sake, then that deed is not counted. However, there is one notable exception. When a disbeliever even passes by a congregation of Muslims, who have gathered for the sake of Allah, even that disbeliever is counted as having done good deeds.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah 's Apostle said, "Allah has some angels who look for those who celebrate the Praises of Allah on the roads and paths. And when they find some people celebrating the Praises of Allah, they call each other, saying, "Come to the object of your pursuit.' " He added, "Then the angels encircle them with their wings up to the sky of the world." He added. "(after those people celebrated the Praises of Allah, and theangels go back), their Lord, asks them (those angels)----though He knows better than them----'What do My slaves say?' The angels reply, 'They say: Subhan Allah, Allahu Akbar, and Alham-du-lillah, Allah then says 'Did they see Me?' The angels reply, 'No! By Allah, they didn't see You.' Allah says, How it would have been if they saw Me?' The angels reply, 'If they saw You, they would worship You more devoutly and celebrate Your Glory more deeply, and declare Your freedom from any resemblance to anything more often.' Allah says (to theangels), 'What do they ask Me for?' The angels reply, 'They ask You for Paradise.' Allah says (to the angels), 'Did they see it?' The angels say, 'No! By Allah, O Lord! They did not see it.' Allah says, How it would have been if they saw it?' The angels say, 'If they saw it, they would have greater covetousness for it and would seek It with greater zeal and would have greater desire for it.' Allah says, 'From what do they seek refuge?' Theangels reply, 'They seek refuge from the (Hell) Fire.' Allah says, 'Did they see it?' The angels say, 'No By Allah, O Lord! They did not see it.' Allah says, How it would have been if they saw it?' The angels say, 'If they saw it they would flee from it with the extreme fleeing and would have extreme fear from it.' Then Allah says, 'I make you witnesses that I have forgiven them."' Allah's Apostle added, "One of the angels would say, 'There was so-and-so amongst them, and he was not one of them, but he had just come for some need.' Allah would say, 'These are those people whose companions will not be reduced to misery.' " (Book #75, Hadith #417)
(Sahih Bukhari)

Their bad deeds are still judged for what they are, and they are rewarded only for what they did. This is the great Mercy of Allah. You won't find the equivalent of this anywhere else except from Islam. This means, despite a disbeliever did not doing anything in good deeds in this life, they can still acquire good deeds if they were in the company of Muslims who offered sincere praises to Allah. If that Muslim had their prayers accepted, then even those disbelievers will have the same from Allah as well. It also shows you just how pleased Allah is with being praised.
Reply

Gintoki
04-24-2013, 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Their bad deeds are still judged for what they are, and they are rewarded only for what they did. This is the great Mercy of Allah. You won't find the equivalent of this anywhere else except from Islam. This means, despite a disbeliever did not doing anything in good deeds in this life, they can still acquire good deeds if they were in the company of Muslims who offered sincere praises to Allah. If that Muslim had their prayers accepted, then even those disbelievers will have the same from Allah as well. It also shows you just how pleased Allah is with being praised.
So an atheist like Bill Gates won't get any reward for feeding millions of poor people,even though his intentions were good? :hmm:
Reply

Ahmad H
04-24-2013, 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by Gintoki
So an atheist like Bill Gates won't get any reward for feeding millions of poor people,even though his intentions were good? :hmm:
No one knows about the specifics. We do not know how Allah will judge everyone. What I stated is what we know in Islam. But what we know can be challenged because of our imperfect knowledge on Allah. We do not fully know what His justice entails. All we know is that He is the Master (Malik) of us, His slaves. Whether we are believers or disbelievers, we are considered his slaves. (I don't fully know the reason for that, someone else might know). But as His slaves, He can either forgive us or punish us as He wishes. But whatever He does, it is with full justice.

As for His justice, we cannot fully comprehend it. This is not an excuse, but a matter of fact. Consider the Islamic sharia. There are over 600 commandments in it, and yet does anyone fully know why every single commandment is what it is? No. There is not a single Muslim that knows exactly why every single commandment is what it is. This is because the justice behind each commandment is fully understood by the reality of the Day of Judgment. Our good and evil is somewhat hidden to us in this world. This is why as Muslims, we consider ourselves imperfect all the time, because we do not know what kind of evil we did unknowingly, or if we thought something was right and it was in fact evil enough to be landed into Hell. We may have thought of something we did as very small and without any consequence, yet, Allah would consider that one of the greatest wrongs to be committed by a human being. Our concept of justice doesn't cut it. This is why we cannot judge anyone or say that we know what will happen to anyone. EVEN IF THEY ARE A DISBELIEVER. I really want to stress on that.

So don't worry about what happens to a believer or disbeliever (by the estimation of what a person says and what you know about them, not what God knows). God knows everything about everyone. No one has any such knowledge about anyone else. Therefore, we cannot understand what sort of justice and ruling Allah will implement on us or others on the Day of Judgment. Only perfect knowledge is required, which we humans don't have.

I hope this made some of this clear to you. My point is that no one knows what will happen to Atheists like Bill Gates who feeds millions of hungry people. I cannot say whether he will go to Hell or Heaven, or even whether I will go to Hell or Heaven. Saying I know what will be judged for anyone, including myself, is arrogant. I do not know how people are rewarded, but I only know what the Qur'an and Ahadith say on these matters. Allah is the Most Merciful in the end. He rewards on what He knows. What He knows is better than what I know.
Reply

facethetruth
09-03-2013, 05:12 PM
Sorry if you can make your post as one sentence question sort so I will answer them one by one. But from what I have read here and there.

Who created God?
God does not to be created because God created the cause and the effect rule so it applys on the creations not the creator. Example I make a toy that works with battery that does not mean that I should work with batteries.

Pls dont argue the answers are clear just think about them deeply and take your time.

Most of the world will go to hell, not logical to me?
Not everything not logical to you means that it is wrong. Most people in this life failed in their relationships, most people lie, most people backbite each others...etc

How do you know that Islam is the truth?
Everything says that. Miracles in the Quran and Sunnah. The only religion that made human reach to their best in history when it was applied....etc

The who justice thing?
The complete justice will be completed in the day of judgment. Now we are in a test, in other word at work. Mohammad Ali used to workout all day and sometimes did not sleep out of pain, can we say that Ali was not fair to himself no he was because he got paid back.

Sorry if you have more stuff just post them as one sincetence question.

The only way to be strong first you have to be honest with your self and remember dont think about stuff just from your perspective bro, think deeply and small sin to you is big to others, a husband that cheats thinks its small but his wife could suicide because of that. ....
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