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Student1996
04-20-2013, 04:33 AM
I am a convert, and I have been thinking about something for a while.I have a rand and want to get this off my chest. what I am thinking about is HELL. This is a touchy subject for me because as I want to be a good muslim, I also have non muslim families. I will start by saying MY FAMILY DOES NOT DESERVE TO BURN IN HELL! I mean I am a muslim and I'm doing my best to worship allah, but I also have family and friends, and I just can not imagine the horror of them burning in hell for eternity! If someone is born misled it is not their fault! It is not fair, what if someone has never heard of Islam!!! As a matter of fact I think nobody deserves to go to hell unless they really hate allah and refuse to follow the path even if they see it. And I do not think anyone should be tormented for ETERNITY!
Heaven is not heaven without family, I'm sorry but this thought has really been getting to me. I lose sleep thinking about this!
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Student1996
04-20-2013, 04:33 AM
rant* not rand.
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MustafaMc
04-20-2013, 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by Student1996
Heaven is not heaven without family, I'm sorry but this thought has really been getting to me.
I have often thought about this as well as I am the only Muslim in my entire family except my wife. Guidance, or not, to Islam is something that puzzles me as well as the eternal destination of those who are not Muslims. I accept the guidance that was shown to me and I trust in the mercy of Allah (swt) for the merciful and just rulings on Judgment Day. I have no guarantee that I will be among those saved from the Hellfire, but I hope and pray that I will be. I do not pretend to know the fate of my parents or other family who have died as Christians, but I consider it to be outside of my realm of influence taking the example of Abraham and his deceased unbelieving father. I yet pray for the guidance and conversion of living family though. We are not in a place or situation to be able to say who deserves and does not deserve to be sent to Hell. Our human perspective is so very limited and in the end we are all at the mercy of Allah's (swt) judgment. For myself, I hold on to "la ilaha il'Allah wa Muhammadan wa abdahu wa rasool Allah" and leave the rest to Allah (swt).
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Muslim Woman
04-20-2013, 12:07 PM
:sl:



Originally Posted by Student1996
! If someone is born misled it is not their fault! It is not fair, what if someone has never heard of Islam!!!



I read that on the final day , many people will claim that they would have followed Islam if they knew about it . Then Allah will order them to jump in to the fire . Those who will obey Him will be forgiven and will enter paradise.

Those who won't listen to Allah will be thrown to hell forever .

hopefully if ur family members don't accept Islam in this world , they will be lucky enough to listen to Allah on the final day .

It's better not to say who deserves hell and who deserves paradise . Only Allah with His perfect knowledge and wisdom knows about it .

And Allah Knows Best.
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sister herb
04-20-2013, 12:14 PM
Salam alaykum

Allah knows the best and remember that he is the most mercifull. We people might have too narrow mind to understand how mercifull Allah actually is.

Stop worrying there.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
04-20-2013, 04:52 PM
Allaah Ta`aalaa said in the Qur'aan Majeed:

"Innalladheena Kafaroo min Ahlil Kitaabi wal Mushrikeena fee Naari Jahannama Khaalideena Feehaa, U'laaa'ika hum Sharr-ul-Bariyyah."

"Verily those who commit Kufr from the Ahl-ul-Kitaab (The Jews and Christians) and the Polytheists will be in the Fire of Jahannum for all eternity; they are the worst of created beings." [Soorah al-Bayyinah]

And Allaah Ta`aalaa said:

"Alladheena Kafaroo wa Saddoo `an Sabeelillaahi Adhalla A`maalahum."

"Those who disbelieve and prevent from the Path of Allaah, Allaah renders their deeds vain." [Soorah al-Qitaal: 1]

So you learn two things:

1) All Kuffaar, of whatever religion they may be other than Islaam, will be thrown in Jahannum wherein they will remain for all eternity.
2) Whatever good a Kaafir does means nothing, as the Shart (Condition) for the Qubooliyat (Acceptance) of a Deed is Imaan (In Islaam in its entirety). Hence, Allaah Ta`aalaa says, "Adhalla A`maalahum", "He nullifies their deeds; he obliterates their deeds; he renders their deeds in vain; he destroys their deeds; he causes their deeds to be lost". In simple terms for you to understand, their good deeds get chucked in the bin. This is what the Qur'aan says, this is not my opinion.

All what I have told you here is from the Qur'aan and from the Hadeeth; what the previous members have told you is from their Nafs and Shaytaan. They are not `Ulamaa; remember that. Alhamdulillaah, I have studied the Deen under reputable `Ulamaa, whereas they have not done so. Hence, you can comfortable accept what I am telling you.

It's like feeling ill and then asking your friend (who has never studied medicine or even gone to school in his life) what is wrong with you and what medication you should take. No matter what opinions your friends give you will mean nothing. At the end, you will have to consult with a Doctor and take the medication the Doctor gives you, whether you agree with the Doctor or not, and whether you likes your friends' opinions more or not. The Truth will not change based on what you like or what your friends like. The Haqq (Truth) is what is found in the Qur'aan and Hadeeth.

Was-Salaam.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
04-20-2013, 04:55 PM
Things do not work the way you want them to; you do not want their to be poor people in the world, but there are. You do not want there to be sick people in the world, but there are. You do not want the Kuffaar to be thrown into Jahannum, but they will be. So in the end, you will have to accept it, whether you like it or not.
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M.I.A.
04-20-2013, 06:50 PM
well as a revert it must be difficult to approach your family with ideas of religion and islam.

i guess its a learning tool and a test of your approach towards islam.


in fact there is part of the quran that says it is there to save you and your families from hell.


i mean i guess it was the same 1400 years ago.



...and god only knows what you pray for.
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Hulk
04-20-2013, 09:33 PM
Assalamualaikum bro,

As muslims it is important that we place our trust in Allah. Someone in class once asked my teacher "How to know if Allah has accepted my repentance?", the response was somewhere along the lines of "Don't worry about whether or not your repentance will be accepted, worry about whether you will hold true to your repentance."

The lesson in this is that we must remember to place our trust in Allah. We sometimes worry so much about what might happen that we forget to have trust in the attributes of Allah. So in terms of your family members, look at the position you are in. You are in the perfect position to bring them the message of Islam. You don't even have to necessarily bring it up directly to them if you feel you are not knowledgable enough yet in that sense. Just strive to be a better muslim, sometimes it is through our strive that others see the truth of Islam.

Always remember that Allah is Most Merciful and Most Just. So you can trust Him to fulfil His promises. If you want to worry, worry about what you can do on your end. One of my teachers once shared a story about a buddhist(I think) man who converted to Islam. He was on his way to starting his own family and eventually he had his own house and he brought his non-muslim mother to live with his family. She brought her idol which she worshipped in her room. Eventually she started asking him where are his idols etc. Long story short she became muslim.

So do not despair, that is what Shaitan wants you to do.

Remember that the kafir is one who rejects Islam. So you must ask yourself whether your family members are actually knowledgable about Islam, I'm quite certain that the answer is no. Knowledge is when meaning arrives into the soul, I'm sure you've experienced it when you were learning about Islam. A lot of people's understanding of Islam nowadays is simply what the media feeds them, that is what they reject.

Always, always remember Allah's Mercy..

On the authority of Abu Harayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: Allah the Almighty said:

I am as My servant thinks I am. I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assembly better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm’s length, I draw near to him a fathom’s length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.

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Gator
04-21-2013, 12:35 PM
Look at it this way, if your family are christian, they are probably worrying about the same thing for you.
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crimsontide06
04-21-2013, 02:52 PM
This subject has been brought up a lot and truly no one can say "God will do this or God will do that" You don't know...Just live your life in Islam the best you can.
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MustafaMc
04-21-2013, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by Gator
Look at it this way, if your family are christian, they are probably worrying about the same thing for you.
You are exactly correct as this has been said regarding me by Christian family for rejecting Jesus as my Savior.
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Student1996
04-21-2013, 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by crimsontide06
This subject has been brought up a lot and truly no one can say "God will do this or God will do that" You don't know...Just live your life in Islam the best you can.
Right on bro.
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glo
04-21-2013, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
You are exactly correct as this has been said regarding me by Christian family for rejecting Jesus as my Savior.
That's a tough thing to hear (and say) to each other.

Better to trust in God and try to follow him whole-heartedly as best as we possibly can.
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Ahmad H
04-22-2013, 12:55 AM
I personally believe that Allah would not punish anyone forever. I can count 30 verses which I would use to support this. Allah is the Most Merciful. There is a reason why He said this. Even He Himself would intercede for the people of the fire who did no good at all. So even though the Qur'an says that there are disbelievers whose deeds will not be counted, eventually, Allah will still intercede for them after the Muslims have been taken out of Hell and only those who would abide for a long time would stay in there. It is a very lengthy Hadith on this intercession, so I am refraining from quoting it right now.

All you need to know is that the Holy Prophet of Islam (saw) has definitely said, in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, that those who did no good deeds at all, will still be taken up by Allah's Handful (imagine just how comprehensive that handful is) and they will be like charcoal, and then they will be put by the river of life, and they will grow like the plants grow on the side of a stream of water. Then they will enter Paradise and Allah will give them a very nice place in Paradise, and He will not be angry with them anymore. I take from this Hadith an interpretation which is different from the stringent one which some believe in today. Allah is the Most Merciful, and Most Just. He only punishes evil for its like.

And 'Aalim or no 'Aalim, no one can dispute what an authentic Hadith argues when it is supported by the Qur'an. If Allah's Foot over Hell is enough for Hell to scream, "Enough! Enough!" then surely Allah's Handful is such a comprehensive thing itself, which would be limitless. There is no limit to Allah's Power. To limit His Handful is to limit Him. Allah is the Most Powerful, and He is not limited by anything. I don't believe in any interpretation besides this, since I have seen enough in the Qur'an and Ahadith to say that anyone, ANYONE, who says that Hell is an eternal punishment for those who did no good, are wrong. Period.

That is still not to say they wouldn't suffer for what would seem an eternity. It would be a very long time before they would be taken out. But one thing is for sure, Hell would become empty one day. And that would be by Allah's Mercy. He does not punish evil except for its like. Even shirk is not an infinite sin. It is unforgivable, but that just means those people who commit it did a serious error and they would suffer tremendously.

The best you can do, as I agree with everyone else in this, is to just pray for your family members. Try to get them to say La ilaha illallah just once in their lives. I hope that would make enough difference. See if they can proclaim their belief in the Oneness of Allah just once. If not, then just continue to pray for them and hope they can change by Allah's Will. There is not much else you can do then. No matter how much you want some people to believe in Allah and submit to Him, they won't. Allah told this to the Holy Prophet (saw) in some places in the Holy Qur'an. The advice Allah gives is to not stress yourself out too much on others, but focus on yourself ultimately, because you aren't a guardian over them. Only Allah watches over them.
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Student1996
04-22-2013, 02:53 AM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
I personally believe that Allah would not punish anyone forever. I can count 30 verses which I would use to support this. Allah is the Most Merciful. There is a reason why He said this. Even He Himself would intercede for the people of the fire who did no good at all. So even though the Qur'an says that there are disbelievers whose deeds will not be counted, eventually, Allah will still intercede for them after the Muslims have been taken out of Hell and only those who would abide for a long time would stay in there. It is a very lengthy Hadith on this intercession, so I am refraining from quoting it right now.

All you need to know is that the Holy Prophet of Islam (saw) has definitely said, in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, that those who did no good deeds at all, will still be taken up by Allah's Handful (imagine just how comprehensive that handful is) and they will be like charcoal, and then they will be put by the river of life, and they will grow like the plants grow on the side of a stream of water. Then they will enter Paradise and Allah will give them a very nice place in Paradise, and He will not be angry with them anymore. I take from this Hadith an interpretation which is different from the stringent one which some believe in today. Allah is the Most Merciful, and Most Just. He only punishes evil for its like.

And 'Aalim or no 'Aalim, no one can dispute what an authentic Hadith argues when it is supported by the Qur'an. If Allah's Foot over Hell is enough for Hell to scream, "Enough! Enough!" then surely Allah's Handful is such a comprehensive thing itself, which would be limitless. There is no limit to Allah's Power. To limit His Handful is to limit Him. Allah is the Most Powerful, and He is not limited by anything. I don't believe in any interpretation besides this, since I have seen enough in the Qur'an and Ahadith to say that anyone, ANYONE, who says that Hell is an eternal punishment for those who did no good, are wrong. Period.

That is still not to say they wouldn't suffer for what would seem an eternity. It would be a very long time before they would be taken out. But one thing is for sure, Hell would become empty one day. And that would be by Allah's Mercy. He does not punish evil except for its like. Even shirk is not an infinite sin. It is unforgivable, but that just means those people who commit it did a serious error and they would suffer tremendously.

The best you can do, as I agree with everyone else in this, is to just pray for your family members. Try to get them to say La ilaha illallah just once in their lives. I hope that would make enough difference. See if they can proclaim their belief in the Oneness of Allah just once. If not, then just continue to pray for them and hope they can change by Allah's Will. There is not much else you can do then. No matter how much you want some people to believe in Allah and submit to Him, they won't. Allah told this to the Holy Prophet (saw) in some places in the Holy Qur'an. The advice Allah gives is to not stress yourself out too much on others, but focus on yourself ultimately, because you aren't a guardian over them. Only Allah watches over them.
Thank you good point, sinners are fuel that feeds the fire of hell, but this world is coming to an end after all. Allah is the most merciful.
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Insaanah
04-22-2013, 07:42 PM
:sl:

It's really important that we don't say about Allah things we wish to be in accordance with what personally sits well with us. E.g. regarding people being punished in hell forever (as mentioned in the Qur'an and hadeeth), we say of our own mistaken volition that it is unjust and not in accordance with Allah being Merciful. Why? Because within the confines of our limited human mind, it doesn't sit well and we cannot imagine how that can be so, so therefore we declare that it must be wrong and we cannot imagine that Allah would do such a monstrous thing. And then we look for opinions to support our thinking. That's a very dangerous thing to do. Some things we have to accept. If Allah has said He is just, and His justice includes eternal punishment for some, then the two are not mutually contradictory simply because we don't understand it. On that day, many things will be clear to us that aren't now.

Allah tells us in the Qur'an that on that day:

And no friend will ask [anything of] a friend, (70:10)

On the Day a man will flee from his brother
And his mother and his father
And his wife and his children,
Each one of them, that Day, will have enough concern (of his own) to make him indifferent to the others. (80:34-37)

All you need to know is that the Holy Prophet of Islam (saw) has definitely said, in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, that those who did no good deeds at all, will still be taken up by Allah's Handful (imagine just how comprehensive that handful is) and they will be like charcoal, and then they will be put by the river of life, and they will grow like the plants grow on the side of a stream of water. Then they will enter Paradise and Allah will give them a very nice place in Paradise, and He will not be angry with them anymore. I take from this Hadith an interpretation which is different from the stringent one which some believe in today. Allah is the Most Merciful, and Most Just. He only punishes evil for its like.
The text of the ahadeeth makes clear that this is in reference to the believers only.

http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/1#364
http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/1#361

Apart from the Qur'an, there are many ahadeeth that make it clear, in the strongest of terms in the Arabic, that some people will stay in hellfire, forever and ever.

Some are here: http://www.sunnah.com/search/hell--p--forever

And these links also show that apart from the Qur'an and hadeeth, it is also the majority consensus in accordance with the Qur'an and hadeeth, that hell is forever and some people will abide eternally therein.

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/45804/hell%20forever
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/26792/hell%20forever
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/31174/hell%20forever

Allah says in the Qur'an that nobody will be wronged by the dot on a date-stone. Let us trust in His words, let us not doubt them, or try to find other interpretations of them to fit in with what sits better with us. Let us strive to be the best Muslims and the best examples that we can be, and make du3a for the guidance of our non-Muslim friends and family.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
04-22-2013, 07:52 PM
Allaah Ta`aalaa said about the Kuffaar that they will be in the Fire of Jahannum "Khaalideena feehaa Abadaa." That is the clear text of the Qur'aan, in which there is no ambiguity. No amount of hope of the part of any person will change that indisputable fact. Those who die as Kuffaar will always be in Jahhannum, never to come out. This is what the Qur'aan says. Therefore, I do not know which Qur'aan people read which tells them that Kuffaar will come out of Jahannum.

Was-Salaam.
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glo
04-22-2013, 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by Huzaifah
Allaah Ta`aalaa said about the Kuffaar that they will be in the Fire of Jahannum "Khaalideena feehaa Abadaa." That is the clear text of the Qur'aan, in which there is no ambiguity. No amount of hope of the part of any person will change that indisputable fact. Those who die as Kuffaar will always be in Jahhannum, never to come out. This is what the Qur'aan says. Therefore, I do not know which Qur'aan people read which tells them that Kuffaar will come out of Jahannum.

Was-Salaam.
In that context, who exactly are the Kuffaar?
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Ahmad H
04-22-2013, 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
:sl:

It's really important that we don't say about Allah things we wish to be in accordance with what sits well with us.
I appreciate your response. I know you mean well, but I certainly did not intend to say something which is merely of my opinion. I don't think you have read those Ahadith carefully enough because there are two lengthy versions, and one goes further than the other in saying that people will be interceded for. It goes so far as to say that Allah would take out those who did NO good before. When the Holy Prophet (saw) intercedes and his intercession is accepted, after around four times, then everyone will be taken out of Hell who could come out, and the rest are imprisoned forever.


Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection the Believers will assemble and say, 'Let us ask somebody to intercede for us with our Lord.' So they will go to Adam and say, 'You are the father of all the people, and Allah created you with His Own hands, and ordered the angels to prostrate to you, and taught you the names of all things; so please intercede for us with your Lord, so that He may relieve us from this place of ours.' Adam will say, 'I am not fit for this (i.e. intercession for you).' Then Adam will remember his sin and feel ashamed thereof. He will say, 'Go to Noah, for he was the first Apostle, Allah sent to the inhabitants of the earth.' They will go to him and Noah will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking.' He will remember his appeal to his Lord to do what he had no knowledge of, then he will feel ashamed thereof and will say, 'Go to the Khalil--r-Rahman (i.e. Abraham).' They will go to him and he will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. Go to Moses, the slave to whom Allah spoke (directly) and gave him the Torah .' So they will go to him and he will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking.' and he will mention (his) killing a person who was not a killer, and so he will feel ashamed thereof before his Lord, and he will say, 'Go to Jesus, Allah's Slave, His Apostle and Allah's Word and a Spirit coming from Him. Jesus will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking, go to Muhammad the Slave of Allah whose past and future sins were forgiven by Allah.' So they will come to me and I will proceed till I will ask my Lord's Permission and I will be given permission. When I see my Lord, I will fall down in Prostration and He will let me remain in that state as long as He wishes and then I will be addressed.' (Muhammad!) Raise your head. Ask, and your request will be granted; say, and your saying will be listened to; intercede, and your intercession will be accepted.' I will raise my head and praise Allah with a saying (i.e. invocation) He will teach me, and then I will intercede. He will fix a limit for me (to intercede for) whom I will admit into Paradise. Then I will come back again to Allah, and when I see my Lord, the same thing will happen to me. And then I will intercede and Allah will fix a limit for me to intercede whom I will let into Paradise, then I will come back for the third time; and then I will come back for the fourth time, and will say, 'None remains in Hell but those whom the Quran has imprisoned (in Hell) and who have been destined to an eternal stay in Hell.' " (The compiler) Abu 'Abdullah said: 'But those whom the Qur'an has imprisoned in Hell,' refers to the Statement of Allah: "They will dwell therein forever." (16.29) (Book #60, Hadith #3)
(Sahih Bukhari)

another version says that there will also be Angels, prophets and believers who will intercede on the behalf of some people. After all of this, there will remain people who did no good at all in this life. This is mentioned after the intercession of everyone else. Those are the people Allah will bring up with His Hand.

Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: We said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)." The Prophet then said, "Somebody will then announce, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship.' So the companions of the cross will go with their cross, and the idolators (will go) with their idols, and the companions of every god (false deities) (will go) with their god, till there remain those who used to worship Allah, both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, and some of the people of the Scripture. Then Hell will be presented to them as if it were a mirage. Then it will be said to the Jews, "What did you use to worship?' They will reply, 'We used to worship Ezra, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has neither a wife nor a son. What do you want (now)?' They will reply, 'We want You to provide us with water.' Then it will be said to them 'Drink,' and they will fall down in Hell (instead). Then it will be said to the Christians, 'What did you use to worship?' They will reply, 'We used to worship Messiah, the son of Allah.' It will be said, 'You are liars, for Allah has neither a wife nor a son. What: do you want (now)?' They will say, 'We want You to provide us with water.' It will be said to them, 'Drink,' and they will fall down in Hell (instead). When there remain only those who used to worship Allah (Alone), both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, it will be said to them, 'What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation. These people will try to prostrate but their backs will be rigid like one piece of a wood (and they will not be able to prostrate). Then the bridge will be laid across Hell." We, the companions of the Prophet said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the bridge?' He said, "It is a slippery (bridge) on which there are clamps and (Hooks like) a thorny seed that is wide at one side and narrow at the other and has thorns with bent ends. Such a thorny seed is found in Najd and is called As-Sa'dan. Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, a strong wind, fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe without any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches, and some will fall down into Hell (Fire). The last person will cross by being dragged (over the bridge)." The Prophet said, "You (Muslims) cannot be more pressing in claiming from me a right that has been clearly proved to be yours than the believers in interceding with Almighty for their (Muslim) brothers on that Day, when they see themselves safe. They will say, 'O Allah! (Save) our brothers (for they) used to pray with us, fast with us and also do good deeds with us.' Allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one (gold) Dinar.' Allah will forbid the Fire to burn the faces of those sinners. They will go to them and find some of them in Hell (Fire) up to their feet, and some up to the middle of their legs. So they will take out those whom they will recognize and then they will return, and Allah will say (to them), 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one half Dinar.' They will take out whomever they will recognize and return, and then Allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant), and so they will take out all those whom they will recognize." Abu Sa'id said: If you do not believe me then read the Holy Verse:-- 'Surely! Allah wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant) but if there is any good (done) He doubles it.' (4.40) The Prophet added, "Then the prophets and Angels and the believers will intercede, and (last of all) the Almighty (Allah) will say, 'Now remains My Intercession. He will then hold a handful of the Fire from which He will take out some people whose bodies have been burnt, and they will be thrown into a river at the entrance of Paradise, called the water of life. They will grow on its banks, as a seed carried by the torrent grows. You have noticed how it grows beside a rock or beside a tree, and how the side facing the sun is usually green while the side facing the shade is white. Those people will come out (of the River of Life) like pearls, and they will have (golden) necklaces, and then they will enter Paradise whereupon the people of Paradise will say, 'These are the people emancipated by the Beneficent. He has admitted them into Paradise without them having done any good deeds and without sending forth any good (for themselves).' Then it will be said to them, 'For you is what you have seen and its equivalent as well.'" (Book #93, Hadith #532s)
(Sahih Bukhari)

And the Hand of Allah is not something to take lightly. Remember that the Foot of Allah over Hell caused its sides to encroach upon each other until it said ,"Enough! Enough!":

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Paradise and Hell (Fire) quarrelled in the presence of their Lord. Paradise said, 'O Lord! What is wrong with me that only the poor and humble people enter me ?' Hell (Fire) said, I have been favored with the arrogant people.' So Allah said to Paradise, 'You are My Mercy,' and said to Hell, 'You are My Punishment which I inflict upon whom I wish, and I shall fill both of you.'" The Prophet added, "As for Paradise, (it will be filled with good people) because Allah does not wrong any of His created things, and He creates for Hell (Fire) whomever He will, and they will be thrown into it, and it will say thrice, 'Is there any more, till Allah (will put) His Foot over it and it will become full and its sides will come close to each other and it will say, 'Qat! Qat! Qat! (Enough! Enough! Enough!) . (Book #93, Hadith #541)
(Sahih Bukhari)

So then do you think the Hand of Allah would only take out a partial portion of the people of Hell? No. We do not know how long it would be before Allah would intercede on behalf of all of those people, it could be those ahqab which He mentioned (78:23). However, His Hand cannot be limited, because Allah has no limits.

But this is just from the Ahadith.

As for the verses of the Qur'an which say that the stay in Hell is for "khalideena" or "abadan". These terms have two meanings, one is that of a very long time and the other is that of eternity. Consider this then, would Allah ever mean only one meaning for these verses, or both of them? The answer is both. Allah does not misuse words anywhere in the Holy Qur'an. Every word is used for a reason.


Now, as for what the Holy Qur'an has said, consider this verse:

101:9 A bereft and Hungry One will be his mother,
(Pickthall)

I chose this translation for a reason. (Keep in mind, I am choosing this verse because however you look at all the other verses on Hell, taking into account the double meaning of the words "abadan" and "khalideena", the Qur'an cannot contradict itself in meaning with any of its own verses.) It says, rather than abode, that Hell will be a mother to the people who burn in there. The arabic word used in this verse is not "daar" for what is called "abode" or "mother", but it uses "ummuhu" (his mother). This is referring to the disbelievers.

So, why would Allah choose the term "ummuhu" when no one stays in their mother forever? The reason is that no one stays in their mother forever. A child stays in the mother's womb for some time, then Allah decrees when that child leaves the womb. Do you see any verse in the Qur'an which says that the child stays in the womb forever? No. This is because that was the reason for Allah choosing this word. There is a very good reason for His choosing it. This verse can be understood in light of what the Qur'an says in other places:

22:5 O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).

23:14 Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!

13:8 Allah doth know what every female (womb) doth bear, by how much the wombs fall short (of their time or number) or do exceed. Every single thing is before His sight, in (due) proportion.

35:11 And Allah did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs. And no female conceives, or lays down (her load), but with His knowledge. Nor is a man long-lived granted length of days, nor is a part cut off from his life, but is in a Decree (ordained). All this is easy to Allah.

Add on to this, the fact that Allah has stressed in many places in the Holy Qur'an that He rewards people according to their deeds, and that He rewards good deeds more than bad deeds.

40:17 That Day will every soul be requited for what it earned; no injustice will there be that Day, for Allah is Swift in taking account.

74:37 To any of you that chooses to press forward, or to follow behind;-
74:38 Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds.

Interestingly enough, verse 74:48 then says, "Then will no intercession of (any) intercessors profit them." The commentaries for this says that the intercession of the Prophets, the Angels and the righteous will not profit them.

Then that would only leave Allah's intercession after that. I did not see any commentary mentioning that Allah's intercession is not going to be given for them. This is why that Hadith above said that there is intercession on behalf of those who did no good in their lives.

Continuing,

14:51 That Allah may requite each soul according to its deserts; and verily Allah is swift in calling to account.

45:22 Allah created the heavens and the earth for just ends, and in order that each soul may find the recompense of what it has earned, and none of them be wronged.

3:25 But how (will they fare) when we gather them together against a day about which there is no doubt, and each soul will be paid out just what it has earned, without (favour or) injustice?

2:281 And fear the Day when ye shall be brought back to Allah. Then shall every soul be paid what it earned, and none shall be dealt with unjustly.

2:286 On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."

23:62 On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: before Us is a record which clearly shows the truth: they will never be wronged.


So I am not making anything up when I say that Allah only punished people according to what they have done. It doesn't take a genius to see that He doesn't punish people infinitely for finite sins. Can a sin be considered infinitely bad? That is what you have to ask yourself. The Qur'an doesn't seem to support the idea that Hell is forever. I am not using some philosophical thinking of my own here. But, when you see what the Qur'an says, it makes sense that Hell is not forever since you cannot possibly say that everyone will be judged according to their sins, and then be left in Hell forever. If doing Shirk and no good deeds equals an infinite amount of sin, then perhaps that is the case. But i do not think that is the case. Why else would Allah even use the concept of a scale in the first place? Also, why would the Holy Prophet (saw) even suggest something contrary to the Holy Qur'an, such as these exact same people having Allah's intercession? Why would both Bukhari and Muslim have this Hadith then?

I don't think I know you and many others have this wrong, I know it.
Reply

Hulk
04-23-2013, 04:45 AM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
I appreciate your response. I know you mean well, but I certainly did not intend to say something which is merely of my opinion. I don't think you have read those Ahadith carefully enough because there are two lengthy versions, and one goes further than the other in saying that people will be interceded for. It goes so far as to say that Allah would take out those who did NO good before. When the Holy Prophet (saw) intercedes and his intercession is accepted, after around four times, then everyone will be taken out of Hell who could come out, and the rest are imprisoned forever.
I think the sister made a good point in pointing out that it isn't right to use our own understanding of what is "merciful" and "just" to judge whether what our Creator does is "merciful" and "just". Like all differences of opinion at the end of the day we say "Allahu alam"/ God knows best meaning we are aware of our own fallibility.

I liken the logic to those who use "The Big Bang" as proof for the Quran, it is using the scientists' understanding of how the universe started. What if it then turns out that the scientists changed their minds and that maybe it wasnt a "Big bang" after all? Does that invalidate the truth of the Quran? Of course not.

Similarly with the issue of eternity, if indeed eternity means eternity then does that mean that Allah is not Most Merciful and Most Just? He is Most Merciful and Most Just regardless of our understanding of what it means. Allahu alam.
Reply

Insaanah
04-23-2013, 06:37 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Ahmad H
It goes so far as to say that Allah would take out those who did NO good before.
After all of this, there will remain people who did no good at all in this life. This is mentioned after the intercession of everyone else. Those are the people Allah will bring up with His Hand.
Yes, but this refers to those who believe.

The Qur'an says, on numerous occasions, "Innallatheena aamanoo wa 3amilu as-Saalihaat.." Indeed those who believe and do good deeds. Doing good deeds is separate to belief, but something that should go along with belief. However, it is possible to believe, having done, for whatever reason, no good deeds. We cannot extrapolate by saying the person who has no good deeds must be a disbeliever, because he has no good deeds to his name.

The first hadeeth you quoted in no way says that disbelievers will be taken out of hell, or that those being interceded for in the groups are disbelievers.

The second hadeeth also, makes no mention or even inference that disbelievers will be taken out of hell and will enter paradise. There are a few versions of this hadeeth, none of which states or infers that non-believers will be taken out of hell, but many of which clearly state that those with even the tiniest amount of imaan will eventually be removed.

Originally Posted by Ahmad H
So then do you think the Hand of Allah would only take out a partial portion of the people of Hell? No.
It is not about what we think.

Originally Posted by Ahmad H
As for the verses of the Qur'an which say that the stay in Hell is for "khalideena" or "abadan". These terms have two meanings, one is that of a very long time and the other is that of eternity. Consider this then, would Allah ever mean only one meaning for these verses, or both of them? The answer is both. Allah does not misuse words anywhere in the Holy Qur'an. Every word is used for a reason.
In the Qur'an there sometimes come two consecutive verses, such as (2:81-82), one talking about inhabitants of heaven and one talking about inhabitants of hell, using the same Arabic words, which state that they will dwell eternally therein, in heaven/hell. Is it the case that when talking about heaven, the meaning is literally eternal, but when talking about hell in the next ayah, the same word means something different, i.e. not eternal, but instead for a very long time? This is, I'm afraid to say, taking meanings and interpretations which go against the clear meaning, and taking one meaning in one place and giving it a different meaning in the same context in the next ayah, simply because it's talking about hell, to fit one's own interpretation, and personal beliefs. One of the hadeeth says in the strongest of Arabic words, using the words in their emphatic form, and three times, khaalideena mukhalladan abadan, meaning forever and ever, with the strongest of emphasis. http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/1#206

Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Can a sin be considered infinitely bad? That is what you have to ask yourself.
Allah has said He is just, and that is enough.

Originally Posted by Ahmad H
But, when you see what the Qur'an says, it makes sense that Hell is not forever since you cannot possibly say that everyone will be judged according to their sins, and then be left in Hell forever.
What makes sense is what Allah and His prophet :saws: have said, not what makes sense to us personally.

Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Why else would Allah even use the concept of a scale in the first place? Also, why would the Holy Prophet (saw) even suggest something contrary to the Holy Qur'an, such as these exact same people having Allah's intercession?
They're not the same people. As the hadeeth mentions, they are believers.

Originally Posted by Ahmad H
I don't think I know you and many others have this wrong, I know it.
I hope you have read the hadeeth and all the information in the links provided.
Reply

Ahmad H
04-23-2013, 08:26 PM
The fact remains that the sister used her opinions as well. It isn't right to say I used my opinion when she did as well. I am perfectly aware of my own fallibility.

But the fact remains that the words "abadan" and "khalideena" do not only mean eternity, but they also mean a very long period of time. It is not my own opinion that these words mean these things, and it is not my opinion that when Allah uses certain words in the Qur'an, He uses them intending all of the range of meanings they have to offer. This is common knowledge. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

I agree with you that only Allah knows the true meanings of these words, as with everything. I would probably accept an explanation of what it might mean about Allah's taking out a Handful of people from Hell. Mind you, this is Allah's Handful, not our normal concept of handful. If you find an explanation of this which says that the Handful is only the believers, maybe then I will reconsider. However, the Ahadith are better at explaining than anyone else is.
Reply

Ahmad H
04-23-2013, 09:11 PM
I am not using my own opinions here. Verse 78:23 mentions Hell being for a very long time. The plural of Huqb (Ahqab) is used, and that one Huqb is eighty years. This just means a very long period of time. We do not know exactly how long this is, but we know that it is a period of time.

I'm just saying. It doesn't seem so sound to me that Hell is forever for anyone. There are too many doubts in the idea that Hell is forever. Allah knows best.

I will look into this even more in the future. I don't trust islamqa.com though. i would rather read more into what the classical commentators and other scholars have said rather than rely on a website.
Reply

Amat Allah
04-24-2013, 12:17 PM
Assalaamu Alikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh

First of all, lets know the meaning of Kuffr:

Definition of kufr:

Kufr in Arabic means covering and concealing something.

In shar’i terminology it means “not believing in Allaah and His Messenger, whether that is accompanied by denial or it is not accompanied by denial but rather doubt, or turning away from faith out of jealousy or arrogance, or because one is following whims and desires that prevent one from following the message. So kufr is the attribute of everyone who rejects something that Allaah has commanded us to believe in, after news of that has reached him, whether he rejects it in his heart without uttering it, or he speaks those words of rejection without believing it in his heart, or he does both; or he does an action which is described in the texts as putting one beyond the pale of faith.” See Majmoo’ al-Fataawa by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, 12/335; al-Ihkaam fi Usool al-Ahkaam by Ibn Hazam, 1/45.

Ibn Hazam said in his book al-Fasl: “Rejecting something for which there is sound proof that there can be no faith without believing in it is kufr, and uttering words for which there is proof that uttering them is kufr is kufr. Doing any action for which there is proof that it is kufr is also kufr.”

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/21249

Second: it is not for anybody to affirm hellfire to others cause we all don't know if the proof of Islam has been established against them nor they have received the message of Islam clearly to believe in it or not. All this is with Allah alone...and we are not in a position to open doors of hellfire to whom we think that they are deserving...it is in Allah's hand and that's it.

The type of disbelievers:

First: those the message of Islam have reached them correctly; have believed in it and known that it is the truth from Allah still they rejected it out of arrogance as Allah says:

"And they denied them, though their souls acknowledged them, for spite and arrogance. Then see the nature of the consequence for the wrong-doers! (14)"

Surat Annamil

Such people are for sure the fuel of Hellfire; they have known the truth still rejected it and from them are: Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab.

Second: the people who have never known Islam nor heard about it for whatever reason (deaf, blind, crazy, living away from civilization such as some african tribes living in far flung areas) and also from them the people of Fatrah whom you can read about them in the link I will provide later In shaa Allah.

Third: the people who have heard about Islam but the message of Islam has reached them distorted and unclear; for some reasons:

* the one who called them to Islam wasn't competent enough for the lack of knowledge he has or for his way of conveying the message of Islam.
* for hearing about Islam from those who are against it such as: hearing it from the haters media or militants of other religions.

or whatever reason.

First group are in hellfire and there is no doubt about it.

Second and Third groups; they will be tested on the Day of Resurrection. Whoever obeys the command of Allah will be saved and whoever disobeys Him will be doomed. Their matter is in Allah's hand.

read here:

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/98714

Allah Is The Most Just and we are not to talk about His Deen just like that whether we are students of knowledge or not...such matters need patient and reseaches and it is not enough to take one word or two from the mouth of Ulama and think that we are now from the people of knowledge nor put new rulings according our understanding for the verses of Allah's book and the ahaadeeth of His messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

We will be asked about the message of Islam in the Day of Judgement, if we know the truth and have seen others struggling in this dunya from their ignorance but we have done nothing to help them to take them by hand and show them the way of Allah then we have been undutiful to Allah in conveying His message of truth.

I say this and I see me not better than anyone of you and if I would think that I am better than you in anyway then I am not even equal to what sticks under the shoe of anyone of you from dirt and Allah knows about us and about what is inside of the heart of every single creature.

May Allah make us deserve being His slaves and servants; guide us and help us to worship Him right alone Ameeen

And at the end; it is not the blindness of eyes but the blindness of heart which will cause us the great loss. Laa ilaha illa Allah.

And Allah knows the best.
Reply

Signor
04-24-2013, 02:18 PM
Assalamu Alaikum

Something we can learn directly coming from Seerah of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)

﴿إِنَّكَ لاَ تَهْدِى مَنْ أَحْبَبْتَ وَلَـكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَهْدِى مَن يَشَآءُ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ ﴾

(Verily, you guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided.) meaning: Allah knows best who deserves to be guided and who deserves to be misguided. It was recorded in the Two Sahihs that this Ayah was revealed concerning Abu Talib, the paternal uncle of the Messenger of Allah . He used to protect the Prophet, support him and stand by him. He loved the Prophet dearly, but this love was a natural love, i.e., born of kinship, not a love that was born of the fact that he was the Messenger of Allah . When he was on his deathbed, the Messenger of Allah called him to Faith and to enter Islam, but the decree overtook him and he remained a follower of disbelief, and Allah's is the complete wisdom. Az-Zuhri said: "Sa`id bin Al-Musayyib narrated to me that his father, Al-Musayyib bin Hazan Al-Makhzumi, may Allah be pleased with him, said: "When Abu Talib was dying, the Messenger of Allah came to him and found Abu Jahl bin Hisham and `Abdullah bin Abi Umayyah bin Al-Mughirah with him. The Messenger of Allah said:

«يَا عَمِّ قُلْ: لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللهُ، كَلِمَةً أُحَاجُّ لَكَ بِهَا عِنْدَ الله»
(O my uncle, say La ilaha illallah, a word which I may use as evidence in your favor before Allah ﴿in the Hereafter﴾.) Abu Jahl bin Hisham and `Abdullah bin Abi Umayyah said: `O Abu Talib, will you leave the religion of `Abdul-Muttalib' The Messenger of Allah kept urging him to say La ilaha illallah, and they kept saying, `Will you leave the religion of `Abdul-Muttalib' -- until, at the very end, he said that he was on the religion of `Abdul-Muttalib, and he refused to say La ilaha illallah. The Messenger of Allah said:


«وَاللهِ لَأَسْتَغْفِرَنَّ لَكَ مَا لَمْ أُنْهَ عَنْك»
(By Allah, I shall certainly seek forgiveness for you unless I am told not to.)

Then Allah revealed:

﴿مَا كَانَ لِلنَّبِىِّ وَالَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ أَن يَسْتَغْفِرُواْ لِلْمُشْرِكِينَ وَلَوْ كَانُواْ أُوْلِى قُرْبَى﴾
(It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allah's forgiveness for the idolators, even though they be of kin) (9:113).

And there was revealed concerning Abu Talib the Ayah,

﴿إِنَّكَ لاَ تَهْدِى مَنْ أَحْبَبْتَ وَلَـكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَهْدِى مَن يَشَآءُ﴾
(Verily, you guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills.)'' This was recorded (by Al-Bukhari and Muslim) from the Hadith of Az-Zuhri.

Source
Reply

Ahmad H
04-24-2013, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
well thats exactly the point, i draw comparisons from what i read to the nation of islam's belief and interpretation of god.
If I read you correctly, are you from the Nation of Islam? If so, then that is very interesting.

But, did you seriously think that I was putting something from my own mind above what God Himself has said? I hope not. Anyways, I posted somewhere on here that I am going to go and research more on the issue of Hell. I saw verses during the research on this discussion which didn't make complete sense to me. I found that there are multiple meanings for certain words. I might have to try peering into every verse and Ahadith on this subject I can before I think I finally understand it. I saw people saying things in which they said the majority of scholars understood Hell to be eternal. I found that some of them said the contrary regarding some verses. Thus, since I figured some words in their Tafsirs might mean something else and were translated one way, then perhaps the translators thought of it as something else.

But, considering this was a confusing line of thought, I realized I might need to confirm what more scholars say on this subject. I hope I don't offend anyone here, but I don't agree with websites like islamqa.com and others from recent scholars. I would rather read what the classical scholars and other later scholars during the centuries said on this topic, or on any other before I consider what the modern scholars say more seriously. I just find that the older texts make things more clear. They have a way about them.

Again, I repeat, anyone who decided to start thinking I am a Kafir for thinking what I think, stop. I am going back to research even more on this. I don't claim to be a scholar, but I do claim that I can read what other scholars say and accept what they say without accepting the judgment of more recent scholars. I am signing out of this discussion. If everyone else here thinks Hell is eternal and there is no more to discuss, then I say the moderators should decide if this thread should be closed or not.

Wassalaam alaikum. Peace be with those who seek the truth....
Reply

Ahmad H
04-24-2013, 07:48 PM
You did bring up a good case in point. Abu Talib did not recite La ilaha illallah before he died. But, the Holy Prophet (saw) said that if he could intercede on his behalf on the Day of Judgment, then he could probably ask Allah to lighten his punishment so that the fire only burns up to his ankles so that his brain boils. This isn't exactly what was said, but it is more or less what was said. So I see your point in how this plays out to the intercession on the Day of Judgment. I'm going to look more into all of this.
Reply

M.I.A.
04-24-2013, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
If I read you correctly, are you from the Nation of Islam? If so, then that is very interesting.

But, did you seriously think that I was putting something from my own mind above what God Himself has said? I hope not. Anyways, I posted somewhere on here that I am going to go and research more on the issue of Hell. I saw verses during the research on this discussion which didn't make complete sense to me. I found that there are multiple meanings for certain words. I might have to try peering into every verse and Ahadith on this subject I can before I think I finally understand it. I saw people saying things in which they said the majority of scholars understood Hell to be eternal. I found that some of them said the contrary regarding some verses. Thus, since I figured some words in their Tafsirs might mean something else and were translated one way, then perhaps the translators thought of it as something else.

But, considering this was a confusing line of thought, I realized I might need to confirm what more scholars say on this subject. I hope I don't offend anyone here, but I don't agree with websites like islamqa.com and others from recent scholars. I would rather read what the classical scholars and other later scholars during the centuries said on this topic, or on any other before I consider what the modern scholars say more seriously. I just find that the older texts make things more clear. They have a way about them.

Again, I repeat, anyone who decided to start thinking I am a Kafir for thinking what I think, stop. I am going back to research even more on this. I don't claim to be a scholar, but I do claim that I can read what other scholars say and accept what they say without accepting the judgment of more recent scholars. I am signing out of this discussion. If everyone else here thinks Hell is eternal and there is no more to discuss, then I say the moderators should decide if this thread should be closed or not.

Wassalaam alaikum. Peace be with those who seek the truth....
i am not of the nation of islam, i have not met any people that say they are.. although i would not know unless they specifically said.
i just know the little the media tells me.

im not even very knowledgeable.

i have an idea of the worldly hell we impose upon ourselves and thats usually what im on about.

..the eternal hell i have no idea about.


i do retract my statements and i do realise that the difference between guidance and misguidance is only with allah swt.
Reply

Ahmad H
04-24-2013, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i am not of the nation of islam
Oh okay. That would have been interesting though if you were. I never actually meet anyone from that group, so that was why I was interested.

Jazakallah for retracting your statement. May Allah reward you for being humble.
Reply

piXie
04-30-2013, 09:40 AM
Originally Posted by Student1996
. I lose sleep thinking about this!
I have heard of people accepting Islam and eventually their entire families accepting Islam. Make lots of dua for their guidance especially during the last third of the night , inshaAllah they will accept Islam.

The Prophet (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “The Lord descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

[Sahih Al-Bukhari and Muslim]
Reply

greenhill
04-30-2013, 02:00 PM
This is one of the eternal questions, in my mind, as I myself went through years of despair for my 'best friend' in school many years ago. I had just come out of religious class where I was told that all non believers will be the fuel for the fire of hell. There was my best friend talking, all I could see was his mouth moving but I could not hear the words he was saying as I was too preoccupied with his final destination..

With that, I began questioning everything. Is this fair? is that fair? what if this? What if that? And then someone threw me a question, 'can God create a rock so big that he cannot carry?' Either way the answer will prove that he is not Al Mighty. Then I realise that I will probably not know the answer to many things, only Allah knows best. We can create a situation for ourselves to be doubtful and perhaps give us reasons to stray. Allah only knows how much of this is going round to create doubts in our mind.

At the end of the day, I also realise, where we end up is entirely of our own input. We reap what we sow. We cannot let ourselves be effected by what appears to be the destiny of others. We can appeal to Allah to show them the right path. That's as little we as we can do. But then again, Allah is the Most Merciful, only we don't know the limitlessness of it. In our limited knowledge and understanding, it is easy to err with regards to how 'Maalikiyaw middiin' will rule that day. Don't question it to the point of distraction, but be thankful that we are given the guidance and constantly ask for reinforcement of our belief. In syaa Allah.
Reply

Jalal~
04-30-2013, 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
I read that on the final day , many people will claim that they would have followed Islam if they knew about it . Then Allah will order them to jump in to the fire . Those who will obey Him will be forgiven and will enter paradise.

Those who won't listen to Allah will be thrown to hell forever .

hopefully if ur family members don't accept Islam in this world , they will be lucky enough to listen to Allah on the final day .

It's better not to say who deserves hell and who deserves paradise . Only Allah with His perfect knowledge and wisdom knows about it .

And Allah Knows Best.
I thought that after you die, there is nothing you can do to change your fate? Our actions from the first life determine the outcome for the second, so how can doing something in the second life improve your chances of getting into Paradise?
Reply

Student1996
05-07-2013, 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by greenhill
This is one of the eternal questions, in my mind, as I myself went through years of despair for my 'best friend' in school many years ago. I had just come out of religious class where I was told that all non believers will be the fuel for the fire of hell. There was my best friend talking, all I could see was his mouth moving but I could not hear the words he was saying as I was too preoccupied with his final destination..

With that, I began questioning everything. Is this fair? is that fair? what if this? What if that? And then someone threw me a question, 'can God create a rock so big that he cannot carry?' Either way the answer will prove that he is not Al Mighty. Then I realise that I will probably not know the answer to many things, only Allah knows best. We can create a situation for ourselves to be doubtful and perhaps give us reasons to stray. Allah only knows how much of this is going round to create doubts in our mind.

At the end of the day, I also realise, where we end up is entirely of our own input. We reap what we sow. We cannot let ourselves be effected by what appears to be the destiny of others. We can appeal to Allah to show them the right path. That's as little we as we can do. But then again, Allah is the Most Merciful, only we don't know the limitlessness of it. In our limited knowledge and understanding, it is easy to err with regards to how 'Maalikiyaw middiin' will rule that day. Don't question it to the point of distraction, but be thankful that we are given the guidance and constantly ask for reinforcement of our belief. In syaa Allah.
Thank you that is very helpful.
Reply

Nur Student
08-15-2013, 08:28 PM
"There is no contradiction between the existence and ghastly torments of Hell, and infinite mercy, true justice, and wisdom with its balance and absence of waste. Indeed, mercy, justice, and wisdom require its existence. For to punish a tyrant who tramples the rights of a thousand innocents and to kill a savage animal who tears to pieces a hundred cowed animals, is for the oppressed a thousandfold mercy within justice. While to pardon the tyrant and leave the savage beast free, is for hundreds of wretches a hundredfold pitilessness in place of that single act of misplaced mercy.

Similarly, among those who will enter Hell is the absolute disbeliever. For through his disbelief and denial

  • he both transgresses the rights of the Divine Names,
  • and through denying the testimony of beings to those Names, he transgresses their rights,
  • and by denying the elevated duties of glorification of creatures before the Divine Names he violates their rights,
  • and through denying their being mirrors to and responding with worship to the manifestation of Divine dominicality, which is the purpose of the universe’s creation and a reason for its existence and continuance, he transgresses their rights in a way.
His disbelief is therefore a crime and wrong of such vast proportions it may not be forgiven, and deserves the threat of the verse,

God forgives not [the sin of] joining other gods with Him. (Qur'an 4:48)
Not to cast him into Hell would comprise innumerable instances of mercilessness to innumerable claimants whose rights had been transgressed, in place of a single misplaced act of mercy. Just as those claimants demand the existence of Hell, so do Divine dignity and majesty, and tremendousness and perfection most certainly demand it.

Since disbelief is aggression against innumerable rights, it is certainly an infinite crime and deserves infinite punishment. Human justice considers a sentence of fifteen years imprisonment (nearly eight million minutes) to be justice for a one minute’s murder, and conformable with general rights and interests. Therefore, since one instance of disbelief is the equivalent of a thousand murders, to suffer torments for nearly eight thousand million minutes for one minute’s absolute disbelief, is in conformity with that law of justice. A person who passes a year of his life in disbelief deserves punishment for close on two million million eight hundred eighty thousand million minutes, and manifests the meaning of the verse,

They will dwell therein for ever. (Qur'an 93:8)"
Reply

Muhaba
08-15-2013, 10:01 PM
Do not doubt Allah's Justice and Mercy. Remember, Allah is more merciful than all humans combined and He is more Just than everyone. Does He know better or do you?

You will pain over your family, yes. And what you can do is pray for them and preach to them. Tell them about the painful eternal punishment of Hell. Read the last Surahs of the Quran, those in the last few Juz and recite their translation to your family. You should also read their commentary. Ibn Kathir commentary or Maududi's commentary are two good one's available in English. there are others too but I haven't read them so can't comment on them.
Reply

h-n
08-15-2013, 10:24 PM
People send themselves to Hell by their evil actions-as Allah has mentioned he "rewards them for the good or bad deeds". Allah did not wish for them to go to Hell, he did not create anyone to go to Hell, if he did he wouldn't be punishing them in the first place.

-the fact that people go to Hell does not change the fact that Allah is Merciful

-why should Allah undo what he has done?? Ie why should he take people out of existence because people became evil? He did not create people wrongly they made themselves wrongdoers, rejecting Allah is an awful thing and in this day people seem to trivialise it to nothing bad. Well it is after all the food, everything they have they reject Allah, which they only do for the life of this world, ie like going on holiday and people of course they don't want to hear about the Day of Judgement, as they wish to enjoy themselves-and they wish to spend the rest of the life and not just on holiday for the life of this world.

-what do people think should happen to evil doers?? Hell is not a learning place its a place of punishment, Allah is Most Merciful, for him to send people there is for a very, very, very good reason, so the issue is that your trivialising people's sins.
Reply

sajjad7006
08-16-2013, 06:48 AM
Brother,
Just remember care about yourself you have your own grave.So save yourself from the hell fire.Keep offering prayers for all your relatives, May Allah give him hadayah .ameen
Reply

Ahmad H
11-24-2013, 06:29 PM
3:25 How (will it be) when We gather them together on the Day about which there is no doubt (i.e. the Day of Resurrection). And each person will be paid in full what he has earned? And they will not be dealt with unjustly.

There is no injustice in the treatment of anyone by Allah.

As for being in Hell eternally, this discussion had raged on a couple of months ago. No one burns in Hell eternally. The Qur'an says that Allah puts people in there for Ahqab, (meaning many many ages, of thousands of years in length). Hell is a nursing mother, and a place in which people are paid for what they have done.

I have seen some people explain that the affront to Allah by shirk is an infinite sin. It is unforgivable, but an infinite sin? That is a fabrication and I have never seen any scholar call any sin an infinitely bad sin. Can there be degrees of shirk? There is intentional and unintentional. I do not know if there are degrees, but one thing is for sure, Allah is not unjust. He punishes severely, but not indefinitely.
Reply

Nur Student
11-24-2013, 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
No one burns in Hell eternally. The Qur'an says that Allah puts people in there for Ahqab, (meaning many many ages, of thousands of years in length). Hell is a nursing mother, and a place in which people are paid for what they have done.
Brother Ahmad,

I like many of your opinions, but in this particular issue, you are completely wrong. You interpret and thus deny so many clear verses of the Qur'an about the eternal dwelling of absolute disbelievers in the Hell (khalidina fiha abadan). I know it is a tough issue to understand, but why do you think Allah would repeatedly promise to do so in such a clear way?

I like Ustaz Bediuzzaman's analogies and arguments in this issue:


"If you were to ask: The sin of unbelief persists a short time but its punishment is eternal and unending; how is this conformable with divine justice? And if one does accept this, how is it consistent with pre-eternal wisdom? And if one accepts this even, how does dominical compassion permit it?

You would be told: If one accepts that the penalty is infinite, it is established that unbelief perpetrated in finite time is in six respects a crime of infinite proportions:

  • Firstly: The person who dies an unbeliever will remain as such even if he lives to all eternity, for he has corrupted the very substance of his spirit. And his corrupted heart has the propensity to commit infinite crimes.
  • Secondly: Even if unbelief occurs in finite time, it is an infinite crime and gives the lie to infinity, I mean, it denies the whole universe, which testifies to divine unity.
  • Thirdly: Unbelief is ingratitude for infinite bounties.
  • Fourthly: Unbelief is a crime against infinity; that is, the divine essence and attributes.
  • Fifthly: As indicated by the Hadith: “The heavens and earth contain me not, yet I am contained in the heart of the believer,”(1) the human conscience is in regard to its outer face limited and finite, but by virtue of its reality the roots of its inner face spread and extend to eternity. In this respect therefore it is infinite. Unbelief however sullies it and it dwindles away.
  • Sixthly: Although opposites stubbornly resist each other, they are similar in many instances. Thus, on the one hand belief yields the fruits of the delights of Paradise, and on the other unbelief produces everlasting suffering and pain.It may be concluded therefore if one puts these six aspects together that infinite punishment fits the infinite crime and is pure justice.

If you were to ask:
So it is conformable with justice, but what about wisdom, which is exempt from creating evils that result in punishment?

You would be told:
As you have heard before, a greater good should not be abandoned due to the interspersion of lesser evil, for that would be a greater evil. This is because divine wisdom necessitates the existence of relative truths, which are far more numerous than actual truths; and their appearance is possible only through the existence of evil; and evil can be held within its limits and prevented from its aggression only through intimidation; and intimidation only truly affects the conscience if it can be verified and actualized by the existence of external torment; for like the intellect and imagination, the conscience is truly affected by intimidation only if it perceives from various indications the eternal, external reality of torment. It is pure wisdom therefore after filling people with fear at Hell-fire in this world, for it to exist in the next.

If you were to ask:
So it is consistent with divine wisdom also, but how does compassion permit it?

You would be told:
The unbelievers can be thought of only in terms of non-existence or existence in torment. If you think it over in your conscience you will understand that existence, even if in Hell, is a mercy and better than non-existence. For if you analyze it carefully you will see that non-existence is pure evil; indeed, non-existence is the source of all misfortunes and sins, whereas existence is pure good, even if in Hell.

Furthermore, it is in the nature of man’s spirit, if it knows that the torment eliminates its crimes and sins, to be content with it, to alleviate the burden of shame. It will then acknowledge that the punishment is fair and that it deserves it. Out of its love of justice, it receives pleasure from it even. There are many honourable people in this world who long for the execution of justice on themselves so as to be saved from the shame of their crimes.

As a result of their actions, the unbelievers go to Hell and abide there forever as their perpetual abode, but after some time paying the penalty for their actions they grow accustomed to it in a way, and adapt to it. Also, their punishments are reduced and mitigated in many ways in recompense for their good deeds in this world, as is indicated in some Hadiths."



Dipnot-1 al-‘Ajlūnī, Kashf al-Khafā’, ii, 195. For details, see, Nursi, Ishārāt al-I‘jāz [Iḥ̣sān Qāsim], 86.


Reply

جوري
11-24-2013, 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
No one burns in Hell eternally
Yeah, they do:

خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا ۖ لَا يُخَفَّفُ عَنْهُمُ الْعَذَابُ وَلَا هُمْ يُنْظَرُونَ {162}
[Pickthal 2:162] They ever dwell therein. The doom will not be lightened for them, neither will they be reprieved.

Arabic is my native tongue and that is what 'khaledeen feeha' means
'eternally.
'Khulood'-= Immortality
khalid= immortal
'khaldeen feeha' therein they dwell eternally.

Let's not makeup a new deen!
Reply

جوري
11-25-2013, 12:07 AM
to add about Ahqaba directly from baheth:
والحُقْبُ والحُقْبُ: ثمانون سَنةً، وقيل أَكثرُ من ذلك؛ وجمع الحُقْبِ حِقابٌ، مثل قُفٍّ وقِفافٍ، وحكى الأَزهري في الجمع أَحْقَاباً.
والحُقُبُ الدَّهرُ، والأَحْقابُ: الدُّهُور؛ وقيل: الحُقُبُ السَّنةُ، عن ثعلب.
ومنهم من خَصَّصَ به لغة قيس خاصَّة.
وقوله تعالى: أَو أَمْضِيَ حُقُباً؛ قيل: معناه سنةً؛ وقيل: معناه سنين، وبسِنينَ فسره ثعلب. قال الأَزهري: وجاء في التفسير: أَنه ثمانون سنة، فالحُقُب على تفسير ثعلب، يكون أَقَلَّ من ثمانين سنة، لأَنّ موسى، عليه السلام، لم يَنْوِ أَن يَسِيرَ ثَمانين سَنةً، ولا أَكثر، وذلك أَنّ بَقِيَّةَ عُمُرِه في ذلك الوَقْت لا تَحْتَمِلُ ذلك؛ والجمع من كل ذلك أَحْقابٌ وأَحْقُبٌ؛ قال ابن هَرْمةَ: وقد وَرِثَ العَبّاسُ، قَبْلَ مُحمدٍ، * نَبِيَّيْنِ حَلاَّ بَطْنَ مَكَّةَ أَحْقُبا وقال الفرَّاءُ في قوله تعالى: لابِثينَ فيها أَحْقاباً؛ قال: الحُقْبُ ثمانُون سنةً، والسَّنةُ ثَلثُمائة وستون يوماً، اليومُ منها أَلفُ سنة من عَدد الدنيا، قال: وليس هذا مـما يدل على غاية، كما يَظُنّ بعضُ الناس، وإِنما يدُل على الغايةِ التوْقِيتُ، خمسةُ أَحْقاب أَو عشرة، والمعنى أَنهم يَلْبَثُون فيها أَحْقاباً، كُلَّما مضَى حُقْب تَبِعه حُقْب آخَر؛ وقال الزجاج: المعنى أَنهم يَلْبَثُون فيها أَحْقاباً، لا يذُوقُون في الأَحْقابِ بَرْداً ولا شَراباً، وهم خالدون في النار أَبداً، كما قال اللّه، عز وجل؛ وفي حديث قُسّ: وأَعْبَدُ مَن تَعَبَّدَ في الحِقَبْ هو جمع حِقْبةٍ، بالكسر، وهي السنةُ، والحُقْبُ، بالضم؛ ثَمانُون سَنةً، وقيل أَكثر، وجمعه حِقابٌ.
http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=أَحْقَابً

literally ages upon ages, whenever an era or epoch ends another one begins!
Reply

Ahmad H
11-25-2013, 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
Let's not makeup a new deen!
Careful there. I understand you have a differing viewpoint, but let's not start accusing me of breaking off from Islam because I hold a different viewpoint on this.

But anyways, Allah is Just. He is the Best Judge, so whatever He decides, those who are judged will know that it is the truth and that they cannot hide from it. Everyone will have to accept their judgment by Him. We do not yet know how we will be judged. Just remember, those who live have not lived their life at full yet. And those who lived, no one knows the secret intentions of their hearts. And no one knows the secret deeds of everyone, everyone has something they hide which only Allah knows. Just remember that before you start wondering how Allah judges. A Judge must know all the facts before they judge, and Allah is All-Knowing!

Therefore, no one can be wronged by Allah. To think you would is sacrilege and it is an affront to Allah.
Reply

جوري
11-25-2013, 12:12 AM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
I understand you have a differing viewpoint,
There's no 'differing views' here!
There's making up stuff which is a greatest sacrilege of all and I have already elaborated on ahqab or per Quran Ahqaba in the above post or in the Noble Quran and its tafsir and from Baheth:

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1600957


You should take your own advise in this case and familiarize yourself with Arabic and usool el fiqh!

:w:
Reply

Ahmad H
11-25-2013, 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
literally ages upon ages, whenever an era or epoch ends another one begins!
Yes, that I understand, I completely accept that it is ages upon ages. I just wonder, if Allah mentioned ages, as opposed to simply saying "abada" or "khalideena", then this must be explaining the whole matter differently. Anyways, let the questioner get a chance to jump in and try to understand the concept of justice and punishment. I'm going to just slither away now and let everyone else do the talking...

:X
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Ahmad H
11-25-2013, 12:19 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
You should take your own advise in this case and familiarize yourself with Arabic and usool el fiqh!
Believe me I'm trying. In the meantime, could you translate your Arabic posts? Someone like me who doesn't know Arabic would like to know the translation of the above. I only know bits and parts, so it is frustrating to go to websites like www.altafsir.com and not know what the vast array of Tafsirs are actually saying. That is one reason why I am not completely convinced as per the Ahqab argument.
Reply

جوري
11-25-2013, 12:20 AM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Yes, that I understand, I completely accept that it is ages upon ages. I just wonder, if Allah mentioned ages, as opposed to simply saying "abada" or "khalideena", then this must be explaining the whole matter differently. Anyways, let the questioner get a chance to jump in and try to understand the concept of justice and punishment. I'm going to just slither away now and let everyone else do the talking...

:X
That's one of the beautiful secrets of the Quran and one of its linguistic miracles.
And there are countless of those. As an example the word for sea and river in Arabic is known ba7r, nahr, when :Allah::swt: is addressing the mother of Moses and in the Quran he inspires unto her to ' فَاقْذِفِيهِ فِي الْيَمِّ' faiqthifeehi fee alyammi:
أَنِ اقْذِفِيهِ فِي التَّابُوتِ فَاقْذِفِيهِ فِي الْيَمِّ فَلْيُلْقِهِ الْيَمُّ بِالسَّاحِلِ يَأْخُذْهُ عَدُوٌّ لِّي وَعَدُوٌّ لَّهُ وَأَلْقَيْتُ عَلَيْكَ مَحَبَّةً مِّنِّي وَلِتُصْنَعَ عَلَى عَيْنِي




Ani iqthifeehi fee alttabooti faiqthifeehi fee alyammi falyulqihi alyammu bialssahili yakhuthhu AAaduwwun lee waAAaduwwun lahu waalqaytu AAalayka mahabbatan minnee walitusnaAAa AAala AAaynee



20:39 "'Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank, and he will be taken up by one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him': But I cast (the garment of) love over thee from Me: and (this) in order that thou mayest be reared under Mine eye.

in this case 'yamm' isn't an Arabic word but a Hebrew one, later on we see the conventional usage of nahr and bahr and an example that combines both below and in one particular verse:

Ibrahim (Abraham)
اللّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ وَأَنزَلَ مِنَ السَّمَاء مَاء فَأَخْرَجَ بِهِ مِنَ الثَّمَرَاتِ رِزْقًا لَّكُمْ وَسَخَّرَ لَكُمُ الْفُلْكَ لِتَجْرِيَ فِي الْبَحْرِ بِأَمْرِهِ وَسَخَّرَ لَكُمُ الأَنْهَارَ (14:32)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi Audio icon 1 - - facebookSmallIcon  14x15JPG 1 -

Allahu allathee khalaqa alssamawati waalarda waanzala mina alssamai maan faakhraja bihi mina alththamarati rizqan lakum wasakhkhara lakumu alfulka litajriya fee albahri biamrihi wasakhkhara lakumu alanhara
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Creation] [Food] [Fruit] [Rain sent down by Allah] [Rivers] [Ships and sailing]
14:32 (Asad) [And remember that] it is God who has created the heavens and the earth, and who sends down water from the sky and thereby brings forth [all manner] of fruits for your sustenance; and who has made ships subservient to. you, so that they may sail through the sea at His behest; and has made the rivers subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you; - Audio icon 1 - facebookSmallIcon  14x15JPG 1 -

It is one of the divine linguistic miracles of the Quran and that an unlettered desert man can come up with this divine writ for those who reason!
Reply

greenhill
11-26-2013, 02:09 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
No one burns in Hell eternally
Yeah, they do:
From a human point of view, I would like very much to concur with Ahmad H's point of view. That being the case, Pharaoh too will taste heaven (or at least get out of the burning fires of hell) eventually. But somehow, I doubt it very much.

But then again, it matters not what I believe, the decision is in Allah's hands and we should endeavour to avoid going through hellfire as much as we can. From what I can understand, it is 'syirk' that is most likely the type of act that may make us permanently reside in hell.

Peace :shade:
Reply

جوري
11-26-2013, 02:16 AM
Originally Posted by greenhill
I would like very much to concur with Ahmad H's point of view

Al-Ma'idah [5:101] audio icon 1 -
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَسْأَلُواْ عَنْ أَشْيَاء إِن تُبْدَ لَكُمْ تَسُؤْكُمْ وَإِن تَسْأَلُواْ عَنْهَا حِينَ يُنَزَّلُ الْقُرْآنُ تُبْدَ لَكُمْ عَفَا اللّهُ عَنْهَا وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ حَلِيمٌ

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo la tasaloo AAan ashyaa in tubda lakum tasukum wain tasaloo AAanha heena yunazzalu alquranu tubda lakum AAafa Allahu AAanha waAllahu ghafoorun haleemun
5:101 O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing.


Once you're familiar with the Quran like a good friend, you might find that some of the things you propose or question or put a spin on are most grievous in the sight of :Allah: indeed
Reply

greenhill
11-26-2013, 04:04 AM
Salaam

Originally Posted by جوري
ou might find that some of the things you propose or question or put a spin on are most grievous in the sight of indeed
Noted.
Originally Posted by greenhill
....., I would like very much to concur with Ahmad H's point of view. ...... But somehow, I doubt it very much.
..... From what I can understand, it is 'syirk' that is most likely the type of act that may make us permanently reside in hell.
Please don't take excerpts of what I say without looking at the rest of the sentence.. What I would like and what is are totally different things. I believe for syirk and unbelievers their place is wherever Allah decides to place them despite what I would like.

Plus, I have not put any spin nor proposing anything. Merely commenting on what is said.

Peace :shade:
Reply

Nur Student
11-28-2013, 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Yes, that I understand, I completely accept that it is ages upon ages. I just wonder, if Allah mentioned ages, as opposed to simply saying "abada" or "khalideena", then this must be explaining the whole matter differently.
Besides what sister Jawri explained about the meaning of "khalideena", here is an ayah with the word "abada".

(Surat Al-Jinn 72:23)
72 23 1 -


Sahih International
But [I have for you] only notification from Allah , and His messages." And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger - then indeed, for him is the fire of Hell; they will abide therein forever.
Reply

CrnaRuža
04-16-2020, 01:34 PM
Hi :) this post has been here since loong time ago, but if in any case you see this please contact me. I have answers that will solve your problem.
Reply

Ümit
04-16-2020, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by CrnaRuža
Hi :) this post has been here since loong time ago, but if in any case you see this please contact me. I have answers that will solve your problem.
post what you have please. we can continue from there.
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