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Gintoki
04-24-2013, 01:18 PM
God exists,angels exist,devils exist,people exist.

Why does existence itself exist?

And to clarify this statement,I'm not asking why Allah created anything. I'm asking why there is anything at all (including Allah) rather than nothing at all.
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Mukafi7
04-24-2013, 02:16 PM
Existence exists so you can post this non-sense of a question.
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Gintoki
04-24-2013, 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by Mukafi7
Existence exists so you can post this non-sense of a question.
Good to know. Anything else?
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Mukafi7
04-24-2013, 02:24 PM
Well since you asked, i would like to add the following:

If existence did not exist, then (if at all possible) you would be asking why does existence not exist?

And yes, you are welcome my friend!
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IAmZamzam
04-24-2013, 04:09 PM
Why is truth true? (Note that I didn’t say the truth, about a particular thing: I said truth itself.) There are some reflexive properties, you see, the premise of which involves a sort of causal absurdity, are there not? In order for the question, “Why does existence exist?” to make any sort of sense, you have to predicate existence upon...well, upon itself. It’s like asking, “Why is the color green…green?” It isn’t. That sounds redundant; in actual fact it’s nonsensical. “Green” is a trait or predicate which other things possess, not the color green itself. How could anything describe itself? How can anything be its own basis? That’s basically tantamount to self-causation. Just as the mother doesn’t give birth to her own self, so does motherhood not describe itself. In the same way existence doesn’t apply to itself either. And so “why does existence exist?” is an invalid question, for the same reason that, “Why is truth true?” is.
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Mukafi7
04-24-2013, 04:43 PM
Masha'Allah Brother, very eloquently put.

The objective of the original thread was to pose an impossible question to answer because it is based on non-sense to begin with. So, to save time, I called it right off the bat as it is....

Now, if we want to really dig deeper and ask why our friend posted this question, he simply wanted to find a justification for walking out on his faith (which by definition we accept at face value and do not question making non-sense statements). To go even deeper, the reason he wants to find justification is due to the fact that he knows he made a mistake and wants to feel better about making that choice.
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Gintoki
04-25-2013, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by Mukafi7
Well since you asked, i would like to add the following:

If existence did not exist, then (if at all possible) you would be asking why does existence not exist?

And yes, you are welcome my friend!
I wouldn't be asking that as i and nothing would have existed in the first place.
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Gintoki
04-25-2013, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Why is truth true? (Note that I didn’t say the truth, about a particular thing: I said truth itself.) There are some reflexive properties, you see, the premise of which involves a sort of causal absurdity, are there not? In order for the question, “Why does existence exist?” to make any sort of sense, you have to predicate existence upon...well, upon itself. It’s like asking, “Why is the color green…green?” It isn’t. That sounds redundant; in actual fact it’s nonsensical. “Green” is a trait or predicate which other things possess, not the color green itself. How could anything describe itself? How can anything be its own basis? That’s basically tantamount to self-causation. Just as the mother doesn’t give birth to her own self, so does motherhood not describe itself. In the same way existence doesn’t apply to itself either. And so “why does existence exist?” is an invalid question, for the same reason that, “Why is truth true?” is.
Well truth is truth is because it's true? =s

Try explaining with another point of view.
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Gintoki
04-25-2013, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by Mukafi7
Masha'Allah Brother, very eloquently put.

The objective of the original thread was to pose an impossible question to answer because it is based on non-sense to begin with. So, to save time, I called it right off the bat as it is....

Now, if we want to really dig deeper and ask why our friend posted this question, he simply wanted to find a justification for walking out on his faith (which by definition we accept at face value and do not question making non-sense statements). To go even deeper, the reason he wants to find justification is due to the fact that he knows he made a mistake and wants to feel better about making that choice.
Non-sense to you?yes. To me? No.
You calling it non-sense cause you can't give a good answer to begin with,no?

I did walked out,and I'm a 'revert' now. Doesn't mean my doubts are gone.
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Hulk
04-25-2013, 05:53 PM
Assalamualaikum to my brothers and sisters. Br Gintoki has considered himself a revert and as such I hope we can try to be patient with questions he may ask. I believe that not all questions should be entertained but even in explaining that to someone it is important to say it the right way. Allahu alam.

----------------------------

As for the question. Even if nothing exists in the universe (no planets no stars no human beings) it is still a form of existence since empty space/nothingness is still creation. Asking why God exists is an absurdity since God is the Creator and is outside of our realm of created existence.
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Insaanah
04-25-2013, 06:59 PM
Greetings Gintoki

Originally Posted by Gintoki
God exists,angels exist,devils exist,people exist.

Why does existence itself exist?

And to clarify this statement,I'm not asking why Allah created anything. I'm asking why there is anything at all (including Allah) rather than nothing at all.
We are encouraged to ask questions pertinent to the practice of our deen, and to clarify our understanding on Islamic matters. We are not, however, to ask things which are unnecessary, and to constantly question things that have no relevance to the practice of our deen, and indeed, some ahadeeth warn against this:

Abu 'Isa Al-Mughirah bin Shu'bah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
The Prophet :saws: said, "Allah has forbidden you: disobedience to your mothers, to withhold (what you should give), or demand (what you do not deserve), and to bury your daughters alive. And Allah dislikes idle talk, to ask too many questions (for things which will be of no benefit to one), and to waste your wealth".

Riyaad as-Saaliheen
Arabic/English book reference : Book 1, Hadith 340 [Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

Narrated Warrad:

(the clerk of Al-Mughira bin Shu`ba) Muawiya wrote to Al-Mughira: "Write to me a narration you have heard from Allah's Messenger :saws:." So Al-Mughira wrote to him, "I heard him saying the following after each prayer: 'La ilaha illal-lahu wahdahu la sharika lahu, lahu-l-mulk wa lahuI-hamd, wa huwa 'ala kulli Shai-in qadir.' He also used to forbid idle talk, asking too many questions (in religion), wasting money, preventing what should be given, and asking others for something (except in great need), being undutiful to mothers, and burying one's little daughters (alive).

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 6473
In-book reference : Book 81, Hadith 62
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 8, Book 76, Hadith 480

The following ahadeeth also warn us how people will continue to ask useless questions until they question who created Allah, and they tell us what we should do if we find ourselves faced with such a situation:

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah :saws: observed:
The Satan comes to every one of you and says: Who created this and that? till he questions: Who created your Lord? When he comes to that, one should seek refuge in Allah and keep away (from such idle thoughts).

Reference : Sahih Muslim 134 c
In-book reference : Book 1, Hadith 252
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 1, Hadith 244

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle :saws: said, "Satan comes to one of you and says, 'Who created so-and-so? 'till he says, 'Who has created your Lord?' So, when he inspires such a question, one should seek refuge with Allah and give up such thoughts."

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 3276
In-book reference : Book 59, Hadith 85
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 4, Book 54, Hadith 496

Anas b. Malik transmitted it from the Messenger of Allah :saws: that the Great and Glorious Allah said:
Verily your people would constantly question about this and that till they would say: Well, it is Allah Who created the creation, but who created Allah?

Reference : Sahih Muslim 136 a
In-book reference : Book 1, Hadith 258
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 1, Hadith 250

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah :saws: said: Men will continue to question one another till this is propounded: Allah created all things but who created Allah? He who found himself confronted with such a situation should say: I affirm my faith in Allah.

Reference : Sahih Muslim 134 a
In-book reference : Book 1, Hadith 250
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 1, Hadith 242

Although the above does not relate directly to your question, the same applies to what you're asking.

It is also worth bearing in mind the following ayaat:

Allah is "Doer of what He wills." (Translation of Qur'an 85:16)

He is not questioned about what He does, but they will be questioned. (21:23)

And Allah knows best.
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IAmZamzam
04-25-2013, 07:39 PM
Satan comes to one of you and says, ‘Who created so-and-so?’ till he says, ‘Who has created your Lord?’ So, when he inspires such a question, one should seek refuge with Allah and give up such thoughts.

The thought crossed my mind to refer to this hadith myself. Because it might make for a good acid test for Gintoki, to see how much he’s learned. When you saw it in the above post, brother, what did you think about it? Did you get the actual point of it, which no unbiased non-Muslim party should find at all subtle? Or did you put the same ridiculous spin on it that they did once at infidels.org and interpret it as meaning, and I quote, “questions are from The Devil”, or something else along those lines? Did it seem to you that the hadith is saying that one should live in a state of blind faith and never question anything, or some other such nonsense? Because if so it just goes to show what I’ve told you about how it doesn’t matter in the slightest about whether bad thoughts come from djinn, from other people or from yourself, as long as they still have the same effect of misleading you in absurd and damaging ways which any outsider can plainly see. If so you need to work hard on making sure you don’t relapse again.
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Futuwwa
04-25-2013, 07:41 PM
It simply does. The end.

If you derived its existence from something even more fundamental, one could again ask "why does that exist? / why is it so?", in an infinite regression. Ergo, some things just are. Everything else derives from them.
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Ahmad H
04-30-2013, 04:19 AM
Allah exists in the infinite past and infinite future, and is always present. He is Time.

By the way, there is a Hadith in which the Holy Prophet (saw) said that people would not cease to ask questions until they ask, "Who created Allah?" I don't know what the prescription was exactly. I think it was to tell them that that question is nonsense, or to ask Allah for forgiveness for asking such a question.

Perhaps from an agnostic perspective of things you would ask this question. But it is purely philosophical in nature. The Holy Prophet (saw) prescribed how a Muslim should respond. If I find this exact Hadith I will post it, since it is the most correct answer to this. Otherwise, this should be considered a purely philosophical discussion instead because it is obvious what our perspectives as Muslims are. Allah is always there, and He always exists no matter what.

So, existence exists because Allah is always present. This is the answer to the 'why'. Asking why Allah exists is in itself redundant. It is like asking, "Why isn't a triangle a square?" The answer is that a square will always by definition have four sides, and a triangle will always have three. It is their reality by definition. Thus it is the same with existence. Being feeble-minded humans, we cannot grasp the full understanding of existence without Allah's guidance in the matter. We are a product of existence. Therefore, in order to know about existence's true meaning, we need the information from the Supreme Being Who created all of this. Naturally, this means our answer lies in what He said, which is the Qur'an. I would call this paragraph, a philosophical discussion from the Islamic perspective.

I hope this suffices. If I did not make sense at any point, then please point it out. I am extremely tired right now so I might have sounded very ignorant right now. I await your response Gintoki.
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kidcanman
05-03-2013, 03:15 AM
existence exists because something outside of existence (Allah subhanahwataallah) exists.
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Ahmad H
05-03-2013, 03:36 AM
^I don't know if I agree with that. No matter what one thinks, Allah is always Al-Awwal (the First, the One before everything else no matter what) and He is Al-Akhir (He is the Last, after everything does not exist). Therefore, nothing exists outside of Him. These two attributes make this very clear.
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Insaanah
05-03-2013, 01:14 PM
:salam:

Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Therefore, nothing exists outside of Him. These two attributes make this very clear.
No they don't. Being the First and the Last does not mean that nothing exists outside of Him. He has said in the Qur'an that He created the heavens and earth. If nothing exists outside of Him, this means that the heavens and earth are Him, and he created part of Himself, which is absurd. It would also mean that we don't exist, if all that exists is Him, or that we are all Allah too. Yet we know, that we will die and be raised up to life, be judged and given an abode in heaven or hell. If only Allah exists, there is no need for this. The statement that only Allah exists, apart from going against logic, also goes against Qur'an and sunnah.

Read here from page 133 onwards (type 133 into the field for page number just to the right of the top centre):

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2673854/Th...Bilal-Phillips

Proofs are given from Qur'an, hadeeth, fitrah, logic, mi'raaj etc.
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NL.
05-05-2013, 07:08 AM
Perhaps I can add to it given the original post could be from the similar brand of thinking about philosophical things like this. He is agnostic and I'm an atheist However I also think the question is rather silly, it's like asking water why water exists. But from the mindset of those brought up to doubt and question authority, rather than embrace it unquestionably, a similarly ponderous question could be why was I born on Earth? Perhaps there are other worlds out there with intelligent civilizations. But here I am, a human on this lonely planet in a huge universe. How is it that chance resulted me in being here, out of the billions of other possibilities possible within the universe of not coming into existence at all? I mean think about it, what did you do that made you so special that you were granted with this great gift called life, and as a human as well? Very interesting to me especially since the very fact that this universe, this galaxy, this planet, one that can support and harness life, all and at this tiny moment in time compared to the timelessness of eternity all resulted in you and me and all of it the result of chance.
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Ahmad H
05-05-2013, 02:15 PM
I am going to clarify what I was saying in a post I mentioned above. I had meant to say that Allah created everything, so how can anything have existed besides Him at all? This is like saying that although Allah is the only one always present, there is something else as well. Everything in creation, is created by Allah. So it is wrong to say that something else exists besides Him before He created everything. Allah is always First, and He is always Last.

Two attributes of Allah: Al-Awwal, Al-Akhir. Just reflect on these.

Also, remember that before everything was created, Allah was always One. His being One shows us that He was always the only one that existed. This attribute always stands true. So how can there be a question of existence? The perception of existence is relative. What we know of existence was never always there. Only Allah was always there. So how can there be a question of why Allah existed? It just is.

Sister Insaanah quoted the right Hadith when she said that this line of questioning is fruitless. I've done my part. Just look at Allah's attributes and you'll find your answer to this dilemma.
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