Is capitalism destroying the world?

[جوري]

http://www.linktv.org/programs/chris...days-of-revolt

"When nothing including human life has an intrinsic value,
but only has a monetary value, that society cannibalizes itself
until it dies... and that's where we're headed." - Chris Hedges

As an icon of the Occupy movement, journalist Chris Hedges has been willing to face arrest and abuse to stand up for what he believes in. He has even gone as far as suing the Obama administration over part of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) that allows indefinite detention of US citizens.
We filmed the Pulitzer-prize winning author during a recent event hosted by our friends at Truthdig. In this moving talk, Hedges takes us through history to show the calculated destruction of what was the liberal class. He advocates for a new movement to be born – one that revolts against the unfettered capitalism he says is destroying our world.
Watch Chris Hedges - Days of Revolt, a passionate plea for a new American revolution, only on Link TV.

[Gator]

Big Chris Hedges fan!

[جوري]

Capitalism lasted longer than I personally thought.. but it is on its last breaths and U.S/Europe have to find new far away countries to bleed to sustain failed ideology.

best,

[glo]

Capitalism lasted longer than I personally thought.. but it is on its last breaths

I hope that Capitalism's days are numbered. It teaches selfishness and self-importance and encourages greed and exploitation.

Even with the recent economic problems, we are still taught that borrowing and spending is the way forward ...^o)

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[glo]

Big Chris Hedges fan!

Gotta google him ...

[greenhill]

It is a huge topic. To me it has its roots back thousands of years. But then again, it is my opinion only.

The world has been brainwashed. How do you counter it when the entire infra industry is saturated with it? Advertising, the whole industry from education system through to the established careers, marketing, promotions, etc. that does not include the finance and legal. It is like how do you prepare to live without electricity. Looks like we will have to deal with it when the power interruption comes. And when the dust settles, it will still be currency that will circulate, and with that in circulation, there will still be capitalism, perhaps in a state like a saying where I'm from that roughly translates to "too shy to live but don't want to die!".

[جوري]

The word used in the topic is unfettered capitalism.. a little competition is always healthy but not a system for the benefit for a 1% that's not even educated but whose only claim to fame is greed and control!

:w:

[greenhill]

Healthy competition can exist without capitalism, no?

[Ahmad H]

Only Islam allows healthy competition because it regulates all financial affairs and relegates a portion of extra wealth to the poor by Zakat. I swear, even Atheists know that the Islamic financial system is the best and that it trumps over the current capitalistic ideology and system.

This current system is heading downwards. Watch, when the system fails, and depression kicks in, it would ring in a Third World War for sure since those in power use democratic principles and the economy to keep people happy. Otherwise, too many social problems will surface and there will be a major crisis. This fear was existent and it is why the system is what it is today. There is a documentary called "Century of the Self", it discusses this problem and how the current trend in consumerism was the counter to this issue in people's inherent need to be animalistic. it is all based on Freudian views on human nature. Edward barnays exploited this information and used it to help corporations make a huge consumerism culture. This is what made America and the rest of the world the way it is today.

[جوري]

can some economist with strong Islamic background introduce the economic theory in Islam? I've been arguing with a shiite Muslim and I don't know enough about the topic to take it to the level I'd like to go.. any help would be appreciated :jz:

[MustafaMc]

we are still taught that borrowing and spending is the way forward

With our current fiat currency (no intrinsic value) debt is treated as money. A gigantic Ponzi scheme with only one logical destination. The final collapse of this system will not affect only the US and Western countries, but will be global and it won't be pretty. With this collapse I believe that we will see the emergence of the Dajjal in Jerusalem and Israel as the ruling economic/banking power before the return of Jesus in Damascus as we approach the Last Days. Allah knows best what the future holds. From Allah we came and to Him we will return.

[جوري]

Do you mind if I use that akhi? I like your simplification as well that of Ron Paul

[جوري]

I remember seeing a video once made by an atheist of all people explaining why capitalism doesn't work

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

it isn't capitalism, per se, that is destroying the world, it is "capitalists" that are. Islam supports a free economy, but with fair values. capitalism was "coined" while the industrial age was in it's infancy. capitalism was defined when nationalism was rampant and financiers were trying to explain that capital was more important than "border issues", maybe because the "bankers" had the world by the "nuts" and nations were clients of the banks.

redefining capitalism as the desire for the "banksters" to have their one world global system of financial slavery puts it in the proper perspective. that is totally un-Islamic as it is grounded in an interest based method of raping and controlling economies. Allah and His Messenger, pbuh, specifically addressed this issue in one of the final, if not the final, revelations of the Qur'an, Al Baqarah 278-79.

O you who believe! Be afraid of Allah and give up what remains (due to you) from Riba (usury) (from now onward), if you are (really) believers

And if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from Allah and His Messenger but if you repent, you shall have your capital sums. Deal not unjustly (by asking more than your capital sums), and you shall not be dealt with unjustly (by receiving less than your capital sums).

"Century of the Self" [i won't link it because pt 3 has a lot of nudity] shows how "capitalism", through propaganda [public/foreign/consumer "relations"] is used to subvert mankind into serving at the behest of the "banksters". we all help and "do our part" in assisting the "banksters with achieving their goals". perhaps we should stop doing that?

Imram Hosien (who i know some people here dislike, especially corporate flunkies) has an interesting, if not controversial, lecture on the subject, called The Prohibition of Riba in the Qur'an and Sunnah. this is the closest that i have seen anyone address the issue. yup, he's a Sufi with some questionable takes on Shariah, but he speaks extensively on this issue when few others do. i recommend that lecture plus a few others on the subject. i am not recommending his lectures on eschatology, though i find them entertaining in that it seems to be an "Islamic" take on British/American Israeli-ism. i spent decades reading about. i good book on the subject is Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright by J H Allen.

summary here:
http://artisanpublishers.com/judahs-...y-p-25581.html

pdf here:
http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/Judahs_...Birthright.pdf

this viewpoint helps show why Christians are so deluded into being the biggest (unwitting)supporters of Zionism. Zionism and Capitalism go hand in hand as the effects of Zionism distract us from the issue of "Banksterism".

but, if you define capitalism as a free market economy, where is the problem with that?

and Allahu Alam

:wa:

ps: sorry, in advance, if you have to edit some of this, Muhammad! :p

[جوري]

^^ oh I am so gonna use that..
btw I found this and it is brilliant

[MustafaMc]

Do you mind if I use that akhi? I like your simplification as well that of Ron Paul

Assalamu alaikum, ukhti, this is only my opinion with no knowledge of the future. You can of course share my opinion, but Allah (swt) knows best the final days of the corrupt capitalist system that drives toward the concentration of the world's wealth into the hand's of a tiny elite minority. "And every nation has its term, and when its term comes, they cannot put it off an hour nor yet advance (it)." Qur'an 7:34

[جوري]

:jz: I prefer your educated opinion to the phony concocted one of the 'experts'

:w:

[introspective]

Take a look at Wall Street and the U.S. military industrial complex. The tobacco and alcohol industry. Drug wars in North and South America. Adult entertainment industry. Notice the growth of for-profit universities? The legacy of Edward Burnays lives on.

[Muhaba]

Some differences between capitalism and islamic economic system that i can recall:
capitalism regards wealth an aim. Islamic economic system considers wealth a tool.

Capitalism regards wealth the property of man. Islam considers God the true owner of all that is in the universe. Hence man has to use wealth and resources within limits set by Allah. So wealth can't be used in unlawful and harmful industries.

[GodIsAll]

The word used in the topic is unfettered capitalism.. a little competition is always healthy but not a system for the benefit for a 1% that's not even educated but whose only claim to fame is greed and control!

:w:

I was looking for a way to state this exactly. Thank you! I admit it couldn't be said more accurately.

[GodIsAll]

In America, a citizen's success is usually measured by their financial portfolio. Very few think outside of this mental framework. Ever consider how sick this is?

Too few create create beauty and peace. Too few have motives that are truly inspired by God.

Love and peace to all...

[Born_Believer]

A very important topic with regards to capitalism in the modern world. I've been reading through this and agree with all the points that I have read and you guys/girls seem to have read my mind on the issue :D

What I find most disturbing about capitalism and the hold it has over the vast majority of the world's population is that people still seem to think it is the only way forward. If you think capitalism is wrong, you leave yourself open to be labeled a communist. From the first major economic crisis of the 20th century (the Great Depression) to the modern economic crash of the 21st century, capitalism has time and time again proven itself to be inadequate and unable to adapt to constant changes of life and the human condition.

I've always believed that capitalism fails to understand human nature...in fact, it fails to recognise there is even such a thing. It is a system devised by those who realised that to gain power, a power that can not be contested by the masses, you must oppress the masses. This isn't always through physical means, in fact, it is rarely through physical chaining of people, it is in the age of capitalism that slavery was abolished. No, it is rather through a psychological oppression of the people. To make us believe that we are inferior to others, those in power because we don't drive the same cars, we don't have the same number in our bank balance and because we don't look the same way. The sanctity of life, the beauty of culture and diversity are crushed under the ruthless advance of capitalism.

Capitalism works via a vicious cycle of great progress and sudden, destructive economic collapse. In that collapse, it is the every day folk who are punished, the working classes...the masses. We are the ones who are left to pick up the pieces, to bail out the banks while their wealthy owner and managers receive bonus upon bonus. The cycle has repeated itself constantly throughout every generation of people in the 20th and 21st century. There is a bit if hope though, the cycle is not infinite and at some point, capitalism must collapse. It may not happen in our life time or in the lives of out children but it will do so at some stage in the next century. The people are frustrated, fewer people within the establishment are willing to put up with it. There are more and more whistle blowers and journalists willing to report the truth.

All in all, I think capitalism will be defeated by it's own greed and lack of morals, China is on the rise, the traditional Western powers are faltering and even though I may not agree with all that has happened in the Muslim world in recent times and the debacle of the Arab Spring but the masses are finally waking up. It may take another century for them to wipe away the sleep from their eyes but the seeds are being sown today.

[GuestFellow]

The main issue is the distribution of resources. We humans do not need money. What we need is resources. We use resources to provide goods and services. Money allows us to get those goods/services. Money is a means of exchange. At the moment paper money appears to be the most acceptable means of exchange. I think this is the root cause of the problem. Until we find an acceptable means of exchange, then we will still have these types of problems.

[Ahmad H]

I'd like to think paper money is the cause, but it is only one of the symptoms of the problem, not the cause itself. The cause is the greed of men who created this current system of cash flow so that it goes directly to them. Interest is the problem because it is used in trade. Once we know that we have a system where a few cannot gain an immeasurable amount of wealth in general, but one where everyone benefits, then we solved the problem. The way Islam has prescribed for this method is the best and no one can deny that.

I wonder if you've watched Zeitgeist before? What you said sounds very much like that. But unfortunately that doesn't cover it. People are greedy either way, so there has to be a control on the wealth of the rich. Zakat is the best form of control.

[M.I.A.]

it is a natural progression.

unfortunately im not sure if fair trade or fairness to those that are made subservant to the big companies, is possible.

if capitalism was ethical in approach would it become something else?

rather than a series of restrictive contracts that throttle supply and demand. with intent to monopolies.

[GuestFellow]

I'd like to think paper money is the cause, but it is only one of the symptoms of the problem, not the cause itself. The cause is the greed of men who created this current system of cash flow so that it goes directly to them. Interest is the problem because it is used in trade. Once we know that we have a system where a few cannot gain an immeasurable amount of wealth in general, but one where everyone benefits, then we solved the problem. The way Islam has prescribed for this method is the best and no one can deny that.

I wonder if you've watched Zeitgeist before? What you said sounds very much like that. But unfortunately that doesn't cover it. People are greedy either way, so there has to be a control on the wealth of the rich. Zakat is the best form of control.

Salaam,

No I haven't watched that movie.

I do think paper money is a big problem. It's more of the immediate issues that needs to be tackled.

[Independent]

I do think paper money is a big problem. It's more of the immediate issues that needs to be tackled

Paper, silver, gold, shells - it's all still money. The moment you move away from direct barter of one good for another - the moment you use anything to represent value instead of the thing itself - then you have the same issue.

[GuestFellow]

Paper, silver, gold, shells - it's all still money. The moment you move away from direct barter of one good for another - the moment you use anything to represent value instead of the thing itself - then you have the same issue.

I know. I think with advanced technology bartering might work.

[Independent]

I know. I think with advanced technology bartering might work.

Even then, the problems don't go away. Imagine you are a farmer in the middle of the US wheat belt. You get your one crop a year - your 'money'. Now you have a massive cash flow problem (all your 'money' comes at one time and it won't keep).

Even then, the value is still not really intrinsic. Try to sell your crop to the farmer nextdoor and it's worthless. This guy has more than enough wheat of his own. Sell if half way round the world and suddenly it has value.

I don't think you can do without money unless you revert to a simple, subsistence lifestyle based entirely on highly local trade.

[GuestFellow]

Even then, the problems don't go away. Imagine you are a farmer in the middle of the US wheat belt. You get your one crop a year - your 'money'. Now you have a massive cash flow problem (all your 'money' comes at one time and it won't keep).

Even then, the value is still not really intrinsic. Try to sell your crop to the farmer nextdoor and it's worthless. This guy has more than enough wheat of his own. Sell if half way round the world and suddenly it has value.

I don't think you can do without money unless you revert to a simple, subsistence lifestyle based entirely on highly local trade.

Any idea what would be the best solution to the financial problems we're facing?

[Independent]

Any idea what would be the best solution to the financial problems we're facing?

I think capitalism is not inherently wrong. Once you have a money system of any kind, you're half way to capitalism. The big difference today is the huge scale, complexity and international nature of trade. Even bankers don't fully grasp what they're dealing with.

In Ireland (my country) we have been very badly hit by the financial crisis. Of course, many people just blame bankers, developers etc. But what is interesting is how many of those self same 'villains' were themselves caught out by the crash. Most of them lost hugely (of course, they have a knack of stashing away the odd million or two, but that's not the point). It wasn't a trick - they were deceived themselves.

In my view the system is perfectly capable of repair, perhaps along two principles:

1, Consider reimposing at least some controls in international movements of money.
2. Limit the total leverage that any bank can extract from their deposits (eg no more than 5 times deposits)

[greenhill]

Peace

Personally, I feel it is the 'internal' value system that we have been ingrained with. Still very much in line with my earlier post about how it has become natural to compete for worldly things. How it has become ok to be greedy and generosity is generally frowned upon.

As long as we as humans get sucked into the temptations of what the world has to offer and the concept of our wealth as being given in trust for our disbursements in the road of Allah is buried in a place long forgotten, gold, silver, money, assets, and whatever else is available to be amassed will be amassed. And it will be accomplished by the minority, very much like what is happening today.

The real battle is to remove the want of these things. It has to start with education, right from kindergarten level. Even then, without a supporting system (ie community or much harder prospect, the government and even more tough, a league of nations). it will be difficult once we step out into the 'real' world. But then again, if we don't participate in the rat race, they cannot 'profit' from us. But how could we step out as a community? We could start by supporting muslim products as opposed to non muslim origin goods? ..where possible.. :p Still, that is a drop in the ocean so to speak. Which realistically means that we are pretty much stuck in this system. The scary thing is that soon we will just be a series of numbers. Our name is no longer relevant. (being a bit fatalistic here);D

But I have ideas for an islamic banking system, but not a subject for here. :phew

[the_stranger]

Capitalism, at least the type of capitalism that exists here in America, is very destructive. It undermines democracy and, even worse, it turns freedom into a commodity.

Here is a good quote from Noam Chomsky. Regardless of how you feel about Chomsky, as he can be a very polarizing figure, he is on-point here:

"Personally I'm in favor of democracy, which means that the central institutions in the society have to be under popular control. Now, under capitalism we can't have democracy by definition. Capitalism is a system in which the central institutions of society are in principle under autocratic control. Thus, a corporation or an industry is, if we were to think of it in political terms, fascist; that is, it has tight control at the top and strict obedience has to be established at every level -- there's a little bargaining, a little give and take, but the line of authority is perfectly straightforward. Just as I'm opposed to political fascism, I'm opposed to economic fascism. I think that until major institutions of society are under the popular control of participants and communities, it's pointless to talk about democracy."

This sums up life in America. The people at the top have a firm grip on everything that happens here. The rest of us either directly or indirectly spend our lives working to ensure that their wealth and power is protected. It's disgusting.

[the_stranger]

Big Chris Hedges fan!

I hope that Capitalism's days are numbered. It teaches selfishness and self-importance and encourages greed and exploitation.

a system for the benefit for a 1% that's not even educated but whose only claim to fame is greed and control!

On a brighter note, it's encouraging to see that Atheists, Christians, and Muslims can find some common ground :thumbs_up.

Healthy competition can exist without capitalism, no?

Healthy competition can only exist without capitalism! Capitalism encourages ruthlessness, and demands greed.

Here is a fun fact about capitalism in America: You remember when our friends on Wall St. destroyed the American economy, and almost destroyed the world economy? Yeah, I remember too. You know how many of those people have had legal charges brought against them?

Zero.

[Independent]

Thus, a corporation or an industry is, if we were to think of it in political terms, fascist; that is, it has tight control at the top and strict obedience has to be established at every level

I don't think all corporations are like this. For instance, in the UK there is a very successful retailer called the John Lewis Partnership in which all the employees share ownership. And in Germany there is a great tradition of worker involvement in company management. There are also new corporations like Google who would claim to have a different attitude to their workforce (you can judge for yourself if you think they are any better).

Even for those corporations which don't have any significant worker participation, I don't think fascism is a very good comparison. Most companies have complex influences and ownerships - the CEO is not necessarily at all secure in his/her position. I think 'hierarchical' is a better description than 'fascistic'.

I suspect that Mr Chomsky has never worked in a corporation.

[observer]

I don't think all corporations are like this. For instance, in the UK there is a very successful retailer called the John Lewis Partnership in which all the employees share ownership. And in Germany there is a great tradition of worker involvement in company management. There are also new corporations like Google who would claim to have a different attitude to their workforce (you can judge for yourself if you think they are any better).

And the Co-op in Britain is another good example. And people should remember - capitalism only survives by selling a product. If people object, don't buy. Enough people not buying soon makes companies take notice. Whilst capitalism is far from perfect, I find it difficult to imagine a better system than a "perfect" form of people-oriented capitalism.

[the_stranger]

I don't think all corporations are like this.

And I agree. I don't know much about the European economy, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were more progressive than the States.

The point I was really trying to express (and Chomsky too, it's my fault for taking it out of context) is that here in America, the line between big-business and government is too easily distorted. For example, there is a growing trend here of for-profit prisons. The people who are opening these private prisons have so much access to high levels of government that they are able to influence legislation in their favor. So far, this has lead to unreasonably high sentencing for low-level, non-violent crimes, in order to keep cells full.

Capitalism itself, though not perfect, isn't necessarily awful. It's capitalism with little to no regulation (like we have here) that leads to some questionable situations.

[Independent]

Capitalism itself, though not perfect, isn't necessarily awful. It's capitalism with little to no regulation (like we have here) that leads to some questionable situations.

I agree. I think there's plenty we could do to improve the system, rather than throwing it out altogether.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Long but critical talk on the subject of capitalism, very informative.

Noam Chomsky: Can civilisation survive really existing capitalism?