Men and women are different, but complement each other.

[Abz2000]

A lot of political games are being played in the country in which I am residing,
Looks like they've lost the confidence of the people due to they're kufr and tyranny so are trying to play the old western game and get 50% on board by pretending to get them equal rights, when in reality they are trying to strip them of what respect they have while semi-disrobing them to sell soaps and chocolates,

Many of us acknowledge differences between men and women while some fall into the rigged game of political correctness and pretend that it's all the same,

Has anyone noticed how men drive differently and women get cheaper car insurance? how men make risky split second decisions with less regard for established norms, make adjustments quicker in "bending rules/allowances" whether at baggage weight check at the airport, and also are more prone to take bribes? How the family automatically delegates control to the man when on holiday or when the car breaks down?
Do women like the idea of a man who throws his arms up and looks blankly at the woman when things go wrong?
how men are attracted to vulnerable rather than macho pant wearing women?
How boys listen less than girls and are more disrptive and strong headed?

Is it because men are created for and given the physical tools and strength to take responsibility in overall administration and because they feel the man made box is just a guideline within their control to mold as they see necessary?

I came across this during my search and it seemed to make sense, (acknowledgement of differences is difficult to find in this brave new world of pol cor

As a woman and a psychologist who has treated women and couples in the last two decades, I find that as I get older, I make a lot more comments to both male and female patients about how the sexes differ. Let’s take an every day example. A woman complains that her husband or male partner does not listen. Women often complain that a male counterpart wants to provide advice when she talks about a problem. We women can feel unheard in this situation, as we would like our partners to remark on the content of our feelings. Sound familiar?

When I am talking with patients, I often try to normalize the above example as one way that men and women are different. Although it may be that a couple is not compatible because of difficulties communicating, I am rarely worried about a partnership based on different communication styles. Rather, I try to educate men, women and couples about the differences in perceptions regarding what is ideal communication. Because a man offers advice does not mean that he does not care. A man offering pragmatic sensibilities seems to be evidence that he is listening! When I say this to my women patients, they are often relieved.

Yet, I find myself sometimes experiencing a curious anxiety when I point out sex and gender differences between women and men. The way men and women listen and talk is just one example. I can get even more anxious when I imply that men process emotions differently and they respond to feelings in a way that can seem foreign to us women.

This raises the question, are women the same as men? Are we different? And if so, can we live with the idea of difference in a post 1970’s feminist world?

Talking openly about the biological differences between men and women can be complicated. Louann Brizendine, M.D. wrote a bestselling book in 2006 about the way male and female brains and bodies differ. Whatever readers or reviewers thought about the book, it has been translated into 30 languages and obviously speaks to something we women are concerned about, which is talking about how men and women are different. Of course, socialization and the way we are raised plays an important role, but biology does seem to matter. This may not be news to young women and men, but for women in Brizendine’s generation and my own, such talk can feel like heresy. Brizendine brings this up in the epilogue of her book:

“There are those who wish there were no differences between men and women. In the 1970’s at the University of California, Berkeley, the buzzword among young women was “mandatory unisex,” which meant that it was politically incorrect even to mention sex difference.”

Something curious happened along the way for women exposed to feminist beliefs. Those of us in our 40’s and beyond were reared in a time in which we felt we had to deny differences between the sexes. This message had a purpose. We had to justify equal rights and equal pay. Although I can’t say that we have really achieved either, it certainly is better than it has been, at least in the United States. Yet, our current state of external inequality makes it harder to talk about internal and biological differences.*

Brizendine goes on to say, “The fear of discrimination based on difference runs deep, and for many years assumptions about sex differences went scientifically unexamined for fear that women wouldn’t be able to claim equality with men. But pretending that women and men are the same, while doing a disservice to both men and women, ultimately hurts women. Perpetuating the myth of the male norm means ignoring women’s real, biological differences in severity, susceptibility and treatment of disease. It also ignores the different ways that they process thoughts and therefore perceive what is important.”

Where does that leave us? Especially as a therapist, I am mindful of not wanting to reduce complaints to differences between the sexes, as we all have our own individual responsibility when it comes to our partnerships. Additionally, I don’t want to bash men. But how did it become the case that talking about biological differences reifies the idea that women are less than equal?

Just because men and women have different ways of thinking about things does not make women inferior. It would be nice if men and women can both acknowledge the ways we are unique and take a stance that is more understanding. We all have different strengths.

Trying to understand how men and women communicate, without taking anything personally, can do a lot to help people in heterosexual relationships get along. And it just might be okay to talk about how men are different from us women. In a more equal, understanding and diverse world, we can appreciate differences empathically, not judgmentally. Talking about gender and sex differences might positively influence communication among men and women.

http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/21...-men-and-women

The intent of the topic is not for one gender to bash the other, but to acknowledge that we are different and a perceived strength may be a weakness in another field and vice versa, how a perceived female bias may actuly be an inbuilt protection mechanism required for the more localised upbringing of children and loyalty to family etc.
I know my dad would take out the belt and mum would come and lie for us and even go mad at anyone who complained about us.

Please heed the request to not turn it into a better than thou contest.

Peace

[ardianto]

We cannot understand WOMEN, but we can understand A WOMAN if we try to understand her.

Throw away the conceptions "women are like this, ... women are like that" because every woman is different. See every woman as a person.

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

We should also stop to think that men in general is like this and that and remember that men too are persons - very different kind of individuals.

Like women.

[Abz2000]

I mentioned general differences between genders due to the recent hysteria being hyped up, the topic is about psychological differences and roles.
Even Allah (swt) mentions differences in the Quran so please let's not try to make it all wishy washy because that's the game shaytan plays in order to dull all edges and confuse us and get us at each others throats due to denial of inherent nature, that's one of the reasons why we're seeing so much fitnah.

Arguing that there are female bodybuilders and effeminate men (the exception) won't help heal these wounds in a confused society which is reeling from buffeting, it will only increase contention.
Sometimes acknowledging differences creates understanding and brings people together.
Peace

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[Futuwwa]

Political correctness again?

Funny how Conservative Americans and Conservative Muslims are pretty much indistinguishable from each other regarding the topic of "political correctness", despite being mortal enemies most of the time.

[Abz2000]

Actually we have a lot in common, in that many conservative Americans ARE conservative Muslims,
And a large bulk of non-muslim conservative Americans hold to the belief that they are created by God.
Although the term "conservative" is used, it can often be generalised with the term "fundamentalist", ie: we're omfortable with the original and not the cheap new trend. :)

Apologies to all if I came across as snappy earlier, many Muslims have been killed here recently and the country is silently raging and all opposition parties have joined together to rally full support behind the islamic movement, the people are now supporting Islam in direct opposition to kufr government.
all of a sudden the government and media are attempting to divert the issue to women's "rights" (not that they actually give a dam*) knowing that ridiculous debates about equal property rights etc will draw the Islamic parties into an argument that looks black and white on the surface (ie: Islam = anti women, we the Awami league care for women), the situation forces me to make these points to defend islam's stance on differences.

Personally I don't care if nobody agrees, because Allah knows us best and He gave us the guidance.
But I looked back at the post and felt it was a little harsh, apologies if I offended anyone.

Look into the facts and you will see that adrenaline plays a huge part in psychological make-up, flight or fight, decision making, feeling in control etc,
Ever wondered why babies cry when they're scared or hungry?
Or why girls freeze and scream in the adventure park and the male holds them tight to reassure?
Maybe it's a natural reflex and form of communication, a call.

34 of chapter 4. النساء in the Holy Quran?

الرِّجالُ قَوّٰمونَ عَلَى النِّساءِ بِما فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعضَهُم عَلىٰ بَعضٍ وَبِما أَنفَقوا مِن أَموٰلِهِم ۚ فَالصّٰلِحٰتُ قٰنِتٰتٌ حٰفِظٰتٌ لِلغَيبِ بِما حَفِظَ اللَّهُ ۚ وَالّٰتى تَخافونَ نُشوزَهُنَّ فَعِظوهُنَّ وَاهجُروهُنَّ فِى المَضاجِعِ وَاضرِبوهُنَّ ۖ فَإِن أَطَعنَكُم فَلا تَبغوا عَلَيهِنَّ سَبيلًا ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كانَ عَلِيًّا كَبيرًا

English-YusufAli translation
______________________________

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women,
because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means.
Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband\'s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

the feminists would hate it, but considering that one is given more strength than the other, even the kuffar would laugh if Allah told women to discipline men.

Google the term: monopoly on violence and you'll realize that governments also feel they have that kind of authority, coz they gave the guns.
The comment is not to encourage people to beat their women, but to make them reflect and see that Allah never unfairly discriminates.
Peace

[truthseeker63]

Each Man and Woman is a Individual.

[Sir Fluffy]

There is an obvious level of equality in men and women equally but the major factor is the biological aspects which determine their physical differences. In this field men always conquer for obvious reasons.
This has nothing to do with inferiority or superiority It is just simply based on the fact that men are the protectors of women as Abz has stated. Though it seems that in secular society they are the worries of women instead of their protectors, supporters and husbands. Western society has placed it fair that both unequal parties are equal. This is simply not true because no matter what, one party will be more prevalent than the other whether it is male or female and I have seen both but generally it is male. With the flux of marital issues and divorce one would think that the current progression in marital advancements would now open people's eyes to this matters. But ignorance is the greatest of all magics and the espouser of all trickery.

[Independent]

Western society has placed it fair that both unequal parties are equal.

The western ideal is 'equality of opportunity' - which is not the same as saying that all parties are 'equal' ie 'the same as each other'. Plainly people are not equal in their abilities, gender based or otherwise.

The western ideal is that the state should legislate to provide equal access and opportunity in all things over which the state has influence (education, employment law etc). At this point Islamic practices may come into conflict.

[Sir Fluffy]

The western ideal is 'equality of opportunity' - which is not the same as saying that all parties are 'equal' ie 'the same as each other'. Plainly people are not equal in their abilities, gender based or otherwise.

The western ideal is that the state should legislate to provide equal access and opportunity in all things over which the state has influence (education, employment law etc). At this point Islamic practices may come into conflict.

I am actually not referring to equal opportunity since I know what you are talking about already.
I am stating the notion that all people are equal to each other. This is purely false as one person regardless of ethnicity, gender or religion is capable of trumping another person in regards to certain matters.
The government itself is not logically capable of providing equal opportunities anyways since all chances we obtain are biased on the individual circumstances offering it.

[Independent]

The government itself is not logically capable of providing equal opportunities anyways since all chances we obtain are biased on the individual circumstances offering it.

It can up to a point. The state can (and I believe should) legislate to ensure equal access to education, jobs etc from a legal point of view - what it can't do is make everyone equally able to take advantage of that access. (Unless it chooses to resort to positive discrimination.)

[Sir Fluffy]

It can up to a point. The state can (and I believe should) legislate to ensure equal access to education, jobs etc from a legal point of view - what it can't do is make everyone equally able to take advantage of that access. (Unless it chooses to resort to positive discrimination.)

Well of course this has been tried and often is. But a government is no more better then those who run it. A Republican for example in the USA a few years ago expressed a desire to have all school funding privatized and paid for by the individual. They also expressed removal of more and more government backed opportunities Fractions of these things have been removed and this just stems from the obvious bias expressed by government parties.
So in reality there is no pure opportunity with ongoing racial prejudice still present and unsurmounted greed.

[Abz2000]

When a company chooses an employee, they usually choose the best fitted for the task,
When a workman chooses a tool, they choose the most suited tool for that job.

Men and women are obviously individuals unless they're Siamese twins.
But each has different inherent qualities and I believe that men have been equipped with the tools to handle outdoor situations better and women have been equipped with the tools to handle indoors better.
Women also inspire men to achieve more outside and vice versa.

A few examples are, physical strength, hairy body which acts like a garment in the cold, high adrenaline and feeling of overall control even in out of control situations, risk taking and throwing caution to the wind etc, in contrast to the deeper emphasis on appearance and adornment, feelings of apprehension "sixth sense" in times of absent children's danger (I've seen them suddenly rush off only to find the kid's hurt themselves or is in a fix), bias in terms of children's opportunities (women often discriminate more than men in favour of their own children - for understandable reasons), the ability to bear children, and feed them milk, the need for someone to listen to their problems, paying attention to detail etc.

Yes we are individuals, yet we are generally suited for different roles, and confusing over-mixing those roles can sometimes have detrimental societal consequences. The fact that homosexuality is becoming prevalent in the west may be in part due to the lack of understanding these differences and absent psychological buffer zone.

Women usually want their man to be "manly", and vice versa. It's a law of attraction and has nothing to do with individualism. Attempting to dilute both roles only causes tensions and feelings of injustice.
We need female teachers, doctors, police officers etc, but I don't believe we need to do so to the detriment of society, where we now see in the west, women often forfeiting bearing children and bringing up te next generation just to be able to compete and survive in the rat race, then comes the dreaded age of ivf and children with weaker immune systems, the depression etc. is it a consequence of the capitalist manifesto that we become objects rather than real people? Where adultery is no longer an issue, Where both genders just keep getting more and more frustrated and more and more anti-depressants are consumed? Do we not need to cast a glance at the foundations?

[Ahmad H]

The Hadith of the Holy Prophet (saw) has come true about the Latter Days. That men would imitate women, and women would imitate men.

[Independent]

Yes we are individuals, yet we are generally suited for different roles

Yes - so on what grounds would any secular state intervene to prevent any individual or group of individuals from entering a particular profession? Why should women be prevented from taking any job, if they proved themselves good enough to get the offer in the first place? Why should the state decide instead of the employer, who surely knows his/her own business best?

Physical jobs are in decline in the west (because of automation and the decline of heavy industry) so strength is less and less of an issue every year. It has turned out that women are at least as good as men in a whole range of jobs from which they were formerly discouraged or even barred. Why should the state make that judgement rather than the individual employer?

As an individual, I want complete equality of access to every profession - but I don't look for favouritism. I don't expect that some groups (eg women) should be removed from the competition altogether, just to make life easier for me. I also don't expect that any group, whether men or women, should be given unfair advantage over me. If I look for equality for myself, I have to be prepared to give it back to everyone else.

Whatever I achieve, I want to achieve by my own abilities, not because the opposition was artificially eliminated.

[Abz2000]

Yes - so on what grounds would any secular state intervene to prevent any individual or group of individuals from entering a particular profession? Why should women be prevented from taking any job, if they proved themselves good enough to get the offer in the first place? Why should the state decide instead of the employer, who surely knows his/her own business best?
...........
Why should the state make that judgement rather than the individual employer?

No need to shoot yourself in the foot just to keep up the contention
Ironic how they intervene to push employers into hiring a minimum number or even equal lol and even give them quotas.
Also ironic how they create a perception of injustice in order to make women indignant and steer them into thinking that not working outside is somehow inferior.
Ever heard of the term reverse psychology? Where you get your victim to demand that you take away their rights by giving them the illusion they are fighting you for theirs?

I feel bad enough depriving my children of quality time because I'm having to earn the bread, the last thing we'd want is for them to lose the time of both parents.
No wonder children these days are so Orwellian and see the state as having more authority than their parents.
Soon they'll probably be betraying each other in order to keep big brother happy since they spend more time with state employees than their own parents.

It's a mess, get it?


فَأَقِم وَجهَكَ لِلدّينِ حَنيفًا ۚ فِطرَتَ اللَّهِ الَّتى فَطَرَ النّاسَ عَلَيها ۚ لا تَبديلَ لِخَلقِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذٰلِكَ الدّينُ القَيِّمُ وَلٰكِنَّ أَكثَرَ النّاسِ لا يَعلَمونَ

English-YusufAli translation
______________________________

So set thou thy face steadily and truly to the Faith: (establish) Allah\'s handiwork according to the pattern on which He has made mankind: no change (let there be) in the work (wrought) by Allah: that is the standard Religion: but most among mankind understand not.

Verse 30, chapter 30. الروم - Holy Quran

Islam allows for women to work outside in modest and appropriate surroundings when necessary, but it emphasizes that they have a higher calling and responsibility as a mother - even to the extent of sacrificing communal prayers.

Did you know that they are trying to force women into work in the uk by cutting benefits?

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2013/...british-women/

[Futuwwa]

No need to shoot yourself in the foot just to keep up the contention
Ironic how they intervene to push employers into hiring a minimum number or even equal lol and even give them quotas.

Can you actually argue against what he is actually advocating, rather than construct a straw man? I didn't see him advocating quotas anywhere.

[Independent]

As Futuwaa says, I'm talking about equal opportunity, not positive discrimination.

No wonder children these days are so Orwellian and see the state as having more authority than their parents.

Yet you want to give the state (or at least society) the power to prevent women from taking all kinds of jobs, even though they are entirely capable of doing them and have proved this long ago. It's you who's aguing for state intervention, not me.

Islam allows for women to work outside in modest and appropriate surroundings when necessary, but it emphasizes that they have a higher calling and responsibility as a mother - even to the extent of sacrificing communal prayers.

If you believe these rules come from God, then obviously you are obliged to follow them. But for a secular state to impose such rules makes no sense whatsoever (and I take it you live in the UK).

So long as you don't demand equal treatment for yourself in other respects, then of course it's ok for you to oppose equal treatment for women.

[جوري]

Yet you want to give the state (or at least society) the power to prevent women from taking all kinds of jobs, even though they are entirely capable of doing them and have proved this long ago. It's you who's aguing for state intervention, not me.

I haven't been following this thread but couldn't help be amused by this statement. I hope you know that even in civilized west women are excluded from certain jobs:

The military still excludes women from 238,000 positions.
- Many barriers remain to women in the military, including traditional attitudes about women fighting and dying at war.

http://news.discovery.com/human/psyc...ont-120213.htm

haven't seen many women in roofing, cement work, road work or construction either but hey if western chicks love those then by all means go for it.
Equality doesn't mean sameness.
and generally I speak at least for Muslim women, we don't want to be treated equal to you, we want to be treated better!

best,

[Sir Fluffy]

haven't seen many women in roofing, cement work, road work or construction either but hey if western chicks love those then by all means go for it.
Equality doesn't mean sameness.
and generally I speak at least for Muslim women, we don't want to be treated equal to you, we want to be treated better!

best,

To correct you on that statement I have seen plenty of women in construction work. I should also mention that the woman I saw had biceps which winked at me :uuh:. Very scary seeing a 6 and a half foot tall woman but they do exist.

Women have equal opportunities in America mostly except for government jobs. The issue is not a matter of them being permitted to work it is a matter of them getting hired. Certain fields women have better odds then men but mostly men have better chances then women. Take for example my friend who is an electrician His company tends not to hire women out of fear they cannot perform manual tasks as equivalent to men. Companies will always be biased regardless of it being illegal.

[جوري]

To correct you on that statement I have seen plenty of women in construction work. I should also mention that the woman I saw had biceps which winked at me :uuh:. Very scary seeing a 6 and a half foot tall woman but they do exist.

Women have equal opportunities in America mostly except for government jobs. The issue is not a matter of them being permitted to work it is a matter of them getting hired. Certain fields women have better odds then men but mostly men have better chances then women. Take for example my friend who is an electrician His company tends not to hire women out of fear they cannot perform manual tasks as equivalent to men. Companies will always be biased regardless of it being illegal.

Indeed. Even Female doctors and engineers are paid less than their male counterparts, but they don't put the same hours as men do they? Nor should they!
I don't expect a woman who just gave birth to be back on the job at 7 am and put in as many hours!
construction in the U.S is one of the most dangerous jobs I don't know if it ranked one or two. I feel sorry that a woman would have to do any kind of physically exhausting manual labor to butter her bread. work in a mine field or construction or front line infantry. Is this a play for equality? one that has lost all reverence for womanhood and motherhood?
I am not sure who is convincing whom of what.. but no woman is that stupid.. necessity perhaps forces them but no one believes that in doing so it means equality!

:w:

[Sir Fluffy]

Indeed. Even Female doctors and engineers are paid less than their male counterparts, but they don't put the same hours as men do they? Nor should they!
I don't expect a woman who just gave birth to be back on the job at 7 am and put in as many hours!
construction in the U.S is one of the most dangerous jobs I don't know if it ranked one or two. I feel sorry that a woman would have to do any kind of physically exhausting manual labor to butter her bread. work in a mine field or construction or front line infantry. Is this a play for equality? one that has lost all reverence for womanhood and motherhood?
I am not sure who is convincing whom of what.. but no woman is that stupid.. necessity perhaps forces them but no one believes that in doing so it means equality!

:w:

Right on the spot al-Anud. Having the same jobs as a man is not equivalent to being paid equally.
I have known plenty women who have worked with me in warehouses and no matter how brawny they are they simply cannot keep up with males. As for serving on the frontlines of the military, nobody wishes to die needlessly for a cause that is not theirs. Lots of men in military services around the world would love to never enter combat while serving their duty.
Men and women have their do's and don'ts and wanting to be equal to men is biologically impossible. Because to be equal means you have to be able to perform the same way a man can which will include manual labor. usually women do not hold in this area as much as men. It does not mean inferiority and women should be happy of the things that they can do that men can't. We all serve a purpose and people should learn to better fulfill it.

[جوري]

Because to be equal means you have to be able to perform the same way a man can which will include manual labor

The operative word here is equal in the eyes of whom? Do you buy into all that BS about we can do it too and women working in factories while their kids are being taken from them & put up for adoption. That was the actual point in the breakdown of a family. By the way many of the sisters on this forum have doctorates and masters myself included wal7mdullilah so it isn't a matter of refusing education. It is a matter of the false belief that if women go down to factories, or mines or armies or even law firms they're equal to men. Our equality at least with :Allah::swt: doesn't come from carrying one ton oF bricks oN the back and lugging it up iron beams.
I look at western society in general and think wow these really are the most exploited subjugated and overly sexualized women they can't even sell toothpaste or shaving cream without some half naked woman involved, and unfortunately our societies by proxy since we follow them to hijr dhabb as the prophet described, or rather that they've imposed on us their idea of freedom & equal rights that it seems so sparkly. To this day when I visit other places, I am often dumfounded by how awestruck they're by anything American or European if they only knew of the toxic work environments, the unending payments and the wastage of years on education that you can have in half the time if allowed but having to go through a system that is meant to stultify your growth and artificially prolong your childhood.

[جوري]

look at this even a 12 year old knows all about the BS..

[Sir Fluffy]

The operative word here is equal in the eyes of whom? Do you buy into all that BS about we can do it too and women working in factories while their kids are being taken from them & put up for adoption. That was the actual point in the breakdown of a family. By the way many of the sisters on this forum have doctorates and masters myself included wal7mdullilah so it isn't a matter of refusing education. It is a matter of the false belief that if women go down to factories, or mines or armies or even law firms they're equal to men. Our equality at least with :Allah::swt: doesn't come from carrying one ton on bricks on your back and lugging it up iron beams.
I look at western society in general and think wow these really are the most exploited subjugated and overly sexualized women they can't even sell you toothpaste or shaving cream without some half naked woman involved, and unfortunately our societies by proxy since we follow them to hijr dhabb as the prophet described, or rather that they've imposed on us their idea of freedom & equal rights that it seems so sparkly. To this day when I visit other places, I am often dumfounded by how awestruck they're by anything American or European if they only knew of the toxic work environments, the unending payments and the wastage of years on education that you honestly have in half the time if allowed but having to go through a system that is meant to stultify your grown and artificially prolong your childhood.

My own sisters went ahead got their degrees and became successful medical experts in their own fields. None of which have done jobs befitting for a man. They each have a salary far greater than males in manual labor fields and they are happy of this. They do not complain about being equal to men and earning less and not being able to haul 80 pounds of cement while in the desert heat. Men do not desire such jobs either as a whole!
Women in the west are exploited even by the things they use to dignify themselves Women now want rights to go topless like males in the USA. They somehow believe they are raising their status and creating a positive outlook upon themselves. In reality they are appearing as *****s(excuse my language) to all men and only making themselves looked down upon.
Somehow bad has become good and good has become bad, this is a very backwards world we live in :mmokay:

[ardianto]

All of my employees in my courier agents are males. I prefer male for this job because I need employee who have "field people mindset" that usually males.

There are jobs which males are preferable, there are jobs which females are preferable.

[Independent]

The operative word here is equal in the eyes of whom?

In your reply you are confusing 'equal' with 'same'. I don't think women are the same as men. I don't think one woman is the same as another woman. The state's proper obligation is to ensure equality of opportunity and access.

Of course, some individuals are better equipped for some jobs, whether mentally or physically. But the state should not intervene in the employer's choice by preventing them from hiring any particular group - such as women.

Whereas, Abz thinks women should be excluded by the state from the majority of jobs. For some reason, he thinks this is not totalitarian, and that providing access to all is totalitarian.

It has become apparent that women are at least as able as men in a whole swathe of jobs, especially the type of job that modern western economies tend to create. In terms of ability it is now factually incorrect to say that they 'can't' do these jobs. If you believe that they 'shouldn't' do these jobs, for religious reasons, that's another matter. But for a secular state such as the UK, where Abz lives, it is logical, fair and just that the state should legislate where possible to provide equal access.

Personally, I have employed both men and women over the years and I have experienced successes and failures with both groups.

[ardianto]

A few days ago I went to a computer repair shop and I saw a hijabi woman was repairing laptop. A rare sight in my place, a woman repairing electronic equipment.

There is no prohibition for women to work as an electronics repair(wo)man, but the women themselves who avoid work like this and prefer other fields. Secretarial work in the office, for example. Highly dominated by women because men are reluctant to work as a secretary.

So, beside "there are jobs which males are preferable, there are jobs which females are preferable" in fact "there are jobs which preferable by men, there are jobs which preferable by women".

[GodIsAll]

Equality doesn't mean sameness.
and generally I speak at least for Muslim women, we don't want to be treated equal to you, we want to be treated better!

That made me actually laugh out loud. Pure and total honesty! Love it!

I've done the house-building, concrete pouring, brick laying gigs, mostly through college. Tough work for anybody and I am glad I only have to do those types of things when I choose to nowadays.

[جوري]

In your reply you are confusing 'equal' with 'same'.

Where have I confused the two when I clearly wrote if you read

Equality doesn't mean sameness.

You didn't understand that the first time around? needed to be broken down further?

Of course, some individuals are better equipped for some jobs, whether mentally or physically. But the state should not intervene in the employer's choice by preventing them from hiring any particular group - such as women.

Shouldn't but it does plenty I have evinced it above!

It has become apparent that women are at least as able as men in a whole swathe of jobs, especially the type of job that modern western economies tend to create.

Western economies create ponzie schemes which they need to sustain by invading sovereign nations.

where Abz lives

That's not where ABZ lives!

Personally, I have employed both men and women over the years and I have experienced successes and failures with both groups.

I'd imagine in your line of work women would excel indeed, women are said they're better writers especially on forums.

best,

[ardianto]

Women do not want to be treated equal to men, that they want is to be treated in a special way as a woman.

[GodIsAll]

I'd imagine in your line of work women would excel indeed, women are said they're better writers especially on forums.

Me no argue point that. Ungah.

[Independent]

Providing equality of access to employment is not the same as saying men and women are equal in the sense of 'the same'. And open access to a job is not equivalent to being forced to actually do it.

Where have I confused the two when I clearly wrote if you read

For instance, here:

The operative word here is equal in the eyes of whom?

The basic principle of equality of access and opportunity to employment is not subjective, it's not in anyone's eyes in particular. The State should not intervene to prevent any employer from hiring men or women. What's it got to do with the State?

I feel sorry that a woman would have to do any kind of physically exhausting manual labor to butter her bread.

You're continually making irrelevant comparisons with jobs that women are less likely to take on under any system. Having an equal right of access to all jobs doesn't mean a compulsion to take on one job in particular. As Ardianto says, men and women may simply prefer certain professions, whether or not they are equally able for it. No problem! The State should let the individual decide. What would be wrong is for the state to say that women, for example, are simply barred from a range of jobs which they are perfectly able to do.

Equality doesn't mean sameness.
and generally I speak at least for Muslim women, we don't want to be treated equal to you, we want to be treated better!

A secular state which seeks to guarantee equality of access does not prevent you or anyone else from choosing the lifestyle you prefer. If a couple wish to follow traditional roles with man as breadwinner, woman as homemaker, that's fine. And if a woman wants her own career, equally fine. This is for the individual to decide, not the state. If you're fortunate enough to find someone to keep you in luxury, that's your lucky break.

Even Female doctors and engineers are paid less than their male counterparts

As well as guaranteeing job access, the state should legislate to ensure fair pay and conditions for all groups, no matter who they are. Great progress has been made on this in many European countries. I don't know about the US but I assume efforts are under way there too.

I feel sorry that a woman would have to do any kind of physically exhausting manual labor to butter her bread.

I feel sorry for anyone who is forced to do a job they don't want. Regrettably, making a living can be hard and people have to do what is necessary to survive. This doesn't have anything much to do with equal job access, however.

[جوري]

Providing equality of access to employment is not the same as saying men and women are equal in the sense of 'the same'. And open access to a job is not equivalent to being forced to actually do it.

I fail to see how the logorrhea deranges what I'd written here:

Equality doesn't mean sameness.

The basic principle of equality of access and opportunity to employment is not subjective, it's not in anyone's eyes in particular. The State should not intervene to prevent any employer from hiring men or women. What's it got to do with the State?

The state does restrict certain jobs that women can attain. I am not sure what you're arguing about. I have already listed several that women can't have per state law- and even if not made into a law, women aren't accepted into such jobs anyway. No point in pretenses.

A secular state which seeks to guarantee equality of access does not prevent you or anyone else from choosing the lifestyle you prefer. If a couple wish to follow traditional roles with man as breadwinner, woman as homemaker, that's fine. And if a woman wants her own career, equally fine. This is for the individual to decide, not the state. If you're fortunate enough to find someone to keep you in luxury, that's your lucky break.

In theory that should be true, in actuality, you've doctors & engineers without employment in spite of playing the game!

He is definitely not the exception. It is a matter of values or lack thereof and what sells not what's best for anyone!

As well as guaranteeing job access, the state should legislate to ensure fair pay and conditions for all groups, no matter who they are. Great progress has been made on this in many European countries. I don't know about the US but I assume efforts are under way there too.

No such efforts are taking place, see above example. In fact all the so-called jobs that are being created to stimulate the economy are a temporary fix. A friend of mine works for a company where they created some 20,000 jobs and he said they'll let go of at least 15,000-17,000 of those over the next few months. Those people are going to put on their resume worked for such and such company for a year or less, they're going to apply somewhere else to butter their bread, elsewhere will look at them as folks who can't keep a job for it is terrible to work in any place for less than two years, and the majority of them will go on assistance or will roll into another crappy low end paying job that doesn't suit their expertise or skills only to make money for some cretin on top of the food chain who has probably not seen the inside of a university in his life!

I feel sorry for anyone who is forced to do a job they don't want. Regrettably, making a living can be hard and people have to do what is necessary to survive. This doesn't have anything much to do with equal job access, however.

It has everything to do with it. Things seem nice on paper the reality of things is completely opposite of that image sold, especially to other countries where they're hoping to export and impose that image of 'free equal access society'

best,

[Independent]

I fail to see how the logorrhea deranges what I'd written here:

I'm sorry, but this doesn't mean anything in English.

The state does restrict certain jobs that women can attain. I am not sure what you're arguing about.

Well, I'm really replying to Abz rather than you throughout this thread. He appears to believe it's ok for the State to bar women from certain jobs. I think this is wrong, every job should be open to any applicant. That doesn't mean that everyone wants to apply for every job, or that they may actually get it.

It's a simple principle of open access under the law.

No such efforts are taking place, see above example. In fact all the so-called jobs that are being created to stimulate the economy are a temporary fix.

Job creation is an entirely separate issue. But rather than, as usual, despising the country which provides you with a home and a living, you should respect the fact that the US has a terrific record of job creation over the centuries. I don't agree with everything they do either, but this achievement has to be respected.

[جوري]

I'm sorry, but this doesn't mean anything in English.

Sure it does.. try the medical dictionary :)

It's a simple principle of open access under the law.

Like I said good on paper only!

Job creation is an entirely separate issue. But rather than, as usual, despising the country which provides you with a home and a living, you should respect the fact that the US has a terrific record of job creation over the centuries. I don't agree with everything they do either, but this achievement has to be respected.

Whatever I personally achieved in life, I have achieved through my own sacrifice, hard work and study not through a country. I take my heart & mind with me everywhere!
Some of the crap I had to endure here is unbelievable and unacceptable. Starting with respect that should be attained for the mere fact that one is a human being above all else but what can one expect from a place that glorifies its wh0res and renders homeless its scholars?
Let's see how the 'job creation' that is to be admired fares in this new economy over the next decade or so!

best,

[greenhill]

Men and women are different but complement each other. Absolutely agree. If only we acknowledge this and get on with life.

Why the attention to compare the two? Apart from the obvious physical differences, we are also emotionaly and experiencially different and that too will change over time. So, in talking about complementing each other, it should remain there, complementing, and not competing. Competing in every field is alien in Islam except to do good for Allah's sake. Even better if done anonymously. So back to the question, can we complement each other? I believe we can. Just don't get your plot with your partner get lost along the way. Review it, if necessary. Life is a journey. Even the prophet sought comfort from his wife who gave him strength after his Iqra' encounter with Gabriel. Compliment each other. Roles can be reversed temporarily, occasionally, or whenever, nothing wrong with that. Give and take. That's life.:statisfie

Peace

[Independent]

Like I said good on paper only!

This is plainly not correct. The difference between a state that legally bars women from certain jobs and activities (such as Saudi Arabia) and one that leaves it up to personal choice in the vast majority of cases (eg the US) is absolutely clear and real. The difference is not just on paper, it's clear to see. It's actually a really simple principle.

what can one expect from a place that glorifies its wh0res and renders homeless its scholars?

It would seem you are unable to adjust to living in the US. Instead of complaining about it, you should find somewhere that doesn't lead you to express hatred on a daily basis.

Sure it does.. try the medical dictionary

'Deranges' is the wrong word in this context. Possibly you mean something like 'contradicts'. But as ever, it's hard to tell.

[جوري]

glad you looked up logorrhea and learned something new.. try to curb down its usage so we're not wasting web space on so much drivel

This is plainly not correct. The difference between a state that legally bars women from certain jobs and activities (such as Saudi Arabia) and one that leaves it up to personal choice in the vast majority of cases (eg the US) is absolutely clear and real. The difference is not just on paper, it's clear to see. It's actually a really simple principle.

I think you're still having a difficult time understanding 'exclusion' from a job.. speaking of Saudi I was offered fantastic career opportunities there as a woman that I wasn't offered here in the U.S- only problems there consisted of having a sponsor.
I have lived there for four years so I'd refrain from making comments as you often display your ignorance.
You deny some words that exist, you presume to know where ABZ lives you make blanket statements about countries you've never been. And yet don't even bother to save face with later attempts.. how admirable!

It would seem you are unable to adjust to living in the US. Instead of complaining about it, you should find somewhere that doesn't lead you to express hatred on a daily basis.

everywhere I go not only am I well adjusted I also excel. Let's get all your turds out of the Muslim world first before discussing me personally.
Also there are no laws against hatred last I checked. You seem to express it quite often though but cover it with enough grease so others swallow it!

'Deranges' is the wrong word in this context. Possibly you mean something like 'contradicts'. But as ever, it's hard to tell.

:haha: If you didn't know the first word and denied its existence with such vehemence, then you're in no position to speak of context. If your claim to fame and when completely at a loss of something useful to say is deliver a harangue and fixate on words then do it in the correct section!

best,

[Independent]

Also there are no laws against hatred last I checked

Sad that you feel the need to say this.

If you didn't know the first word and denied its existence with such vehemence, then you're in no position to speak of context.

No, I said the sentence doesn't make sense. Which it doesn't.

[جوري]

Sad that you feel the need to say this.

I didn't speak of my feelings- I said there are no laws against them.

No, I said the sentence doesn't make sense. Which it doesn't.

You're in no position to speak on what does or doesn't make sense given your history here- or would you like to admit that your main job on the forum is to bait people?
Perhaps one day you too can come clean like this guy:

http://consciouslifenews.com/paid-in...ebate/1147073/

best,

[Independent]

your main job on the forum is to bait people

Substitute 'my' for 'your' and you have that sentence right.

[جوري]

Substitute 'my' for 'your' and you have that sentence right.

Why would I do that when it is obvious to all what you are (and btw I have received half a dozen complaints and several warnings from members here against you via PM) telling me just that- ''be careful around this guy he's playing games' puts words in people's mouths and gives them up for the yearly roast. Good luck with all that :)

best,

[truthseeker63]

I don't believe the sexes are equal in terms that feminism defines.

[truthseeker63]

Men and Women are diffrent Im not politically correct on this issue I believe the sexes are equal in spiritual sense but not in a material sense sorry I don't support Feminism.

[truthseeker63]

I don't believe in equality of opportunity to employment or anything because there are jobs Women should not do but Women should be allowed to work if they want to.

[Abz2000]

Independent, you seem to assume and presume a lot.
First you tell me where I live - despite your intuition leading you to believe it's on the wrong side of planet earth....

Have you read verse 38 of chapter 43. الزخرف in the Holy Quran?

حَتّىٰ إِذا جاءَنا قالَ يٰلَيتَ بَينى وَبَينَكَ بُعدَ المَشرِقَينِ فَبِئسَ القَرينُ

English-YusufAli translation
______________________________

At length, when (such a one) comes to Us, he says: \"Would that between me and thee were the distance of East and West!\" Ah! evil is the companion (indeed)!

Next you decide to assume what I believe too - by telling me that I believe women should be stopped from "the majority of jobs" lol. - did I whisper that to you in private over a pint of the best intoxicant in a "gentlemen's" club while a woman who needed to feed her family disrobed before the rest of the western"gentlemen"?

My purpose of this thread was explained from the start,
It was to be a cause of self reflection and to build understanding and acceptance, in place of false sameness and confusion.
I watch women work at home and see them doing more than a full time job - it can be exhausting.
No wonder you guys normally take 1 or 0 children or don't even fulfil the human responsibility of even marrying and passing on anything good to the next generation - not that there's much decency to pass on.
I believe women should not be stigmatised and made to believe they are seen as inferior when they don't leave their children to go out and work, and would probably be murderously angry if I felt another man was scolding my Missus or telling her what to do.

and I also believe there are certain jobs men should be EXCLUDED from and shops from where men should be barred.

The current wishy washy situation in the west seems to have had an effect on its people in terms of their manhood, womanhood, dignity and even humanity.

But then, it is not we who Muslims who believe that we are just another form of animal products of bestiality between orangutans and apes a stuff, so the difference in perception shouldn't be too alarming.

verse 70 of chapter 17. الإسراء in the Holy Quran

۞ وَلَقَد كَرَّمنا بَنى ءادَمَ وَحَمَلنٰهُم فِى البَرِّ وَالبَحرِ وَرَزَقنٰهُم مِنَ الطَّيِّبٰتِ وَفَضَّلنٰهُم عَلىٰ كَثيرٍ مِمَّن خَلَقنا تَفضيلًا

English-YusufAli translation
______________________________

We have honoured the children of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favours, above a great part of our creation.

[Independent]

My purpose of this thread was explained from the start,
It was to be a cause of self reflection and to build understanding and acceptance, in place of false sameness and confusion.

If you don't believe in compulsion, that's great. Re-reading your posts I'm not sure exactly where you stand on the issue. Although this line seems to indicate that you do in fact favour state intervention:

and I also believe there are certain jobs men should be EXCLUDED from and shops from where men should be barred.

You speculate about the difference between men and women. It's very hard to say how much we are different by nature, or by nurture. Rather than theorising and guessing, the role of the state should simply to be to provide a level playing field from a legal point of view (ie you can apply for any job no matter what your gender, race or social background).

If you believe in the principle of equality for all men in employment law or any other area, then you should also support it for women. Equality of access means for everyone, or else it simply isn't equality. It's amazing how often people demand equality for themselves on principle whilst refusing it to other groups in other contexts.

This doesn't mean that men and women are the same and must be forced to take certain roles. Quite the opposite - they can choose. The state should not get involved. Would you agree?

Of course, as you mention, society (as opposed to the government) can pressure people into taking one course of action or another. This is more difficult for the state to prevent - and you could argue it shouldn't even try. However, this pressure could be both against female access to employment or in favour of it. You may claim western society unfairly pressures women in a western society to go to work (although I think that's a huge generalisation) yet other societies try to prevent them - especially some of the Taliban groups with active physical coercion.

HOWEVER - If you believe that your religion dictates some form of male/female division then that is another issue. It makes a big difference in someone's attitude. For instance, an individual woman may feel that the employment restrictions placed on her are God-given and therefore in themselves almost a form of worship. Plainly, she will view these restrictions very differently and not as restrictions at all.

But a non believer is likely to find those exact same restrictions very insulting and coercive. Therefore, to cater for all its citizens equally no matter what their religion, the state should legislate only to provide equality of access, and let individuals decide whether or not they want to apply for any job. Open access laws don't force anyone to work. Whereas closed access laws obviously prevent selected people from certain professions. Open access provides choice, closed access is coercive.

An individual may welcome that coercion and therefore not see it as coercion at all - but it is still coercion from a legal point of view.

First you tell me where I live

Your style is very British English - perhaps you used to live there? - but of course, reading back it's obvious you live elsewhere (Bangladesh perhaps). This is not important to the debate although it seems to excite Shaden.

No wonder you guys normally take 1 or 0 children or don't even fulfil the human responsibility of even marrying and passing on anything good to the next generation

By the way, the key indicator for birth rates seems not to be employment laws, but education. Basically, the more educated women are, the lower the birth rate tends to be. So would you recommend restricting female education?

'A women's educational level is the best predictor of how many children she will have, according to a new study from the National Center for Health Statistics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.'
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/97facts/edu2birt.htm

[Futuwwa]

Independent, you seem to assume and presume a lot.

What is the difference between assuming and presuming?

[ardianto]

I know few men who graduated from universities but still unemployed for years. From what I've noticed, it's because their mentality, not because they lost the competition with women in getting a job.

I've heard some men say, if women entering working field, men who graduated from universities would become taxi drivers. And then they want the women banned in certain professions.

Okay, if women are banned in certain professions, it would make the men have less competitor. But is it mean they get guarantee to get a job?. In fact, companies prefer to employ people with medium or even low education but have good working ethic than employ universities graduate with bad working ethic.

[جوري]

(ie you can apply for any job no matter what your gender, race or social background).

If you believe in the principle of equality for all men in employment law or any other area, then you should also support it for women. Equality of access means for everyone, or else it simply isn't equality. It's amazing how often people demand equality for themselves on principle whilst refusing it to other groups in other contexts.

applying for any job doesn't mean you'll get that job- Again, you seem to confuse what it says on paper with the reality of things, the nepotism, racism, sexism that goes into everything especially here in the civilized west.
Two people the Muslim woman has better credentials than the WASP male whose name is John they both apply for the same job, he gets it she doesn't!
You can't challenge that by the way there's plenty of room for them to conjure up any number of reasons of why he's more preferable- none of them will be those politically incorrect ones in theory but the reality is all of them. Male, white, christian will be better than female, black, whose name is lakisha and just converted to Islam & wears a headscarf.
by the way they did an entire study on that- the female black with the funny name's resume doesn't even make it past the garbage bin!
If you don't know how the world works then no one can help you there!

best,

[Independent]

applying for any job doesn't mean you'll get that job

Of course - we're talking about the principle of access here. You need to at least get that established in law first.

If women or any other group are barred from entry to a profession either in law or by coercion then nothing else really matters, on paper or otherwise.

Again, I don't know the US situation as well as the UK or Ireland, but without doubt women's access to employment here has improved and diversified enormously over the last 40 years. Having worked with a number of US companies I see the same there. That doesn't mean it's perfect in every company, in every industry. But the broad picture is unmistakable.

[nila11]

man and woman had two different personalty, thinking and by sex they are totally different. but they also complete when they meet each others, because woman creating of God specially for man.

[GuestFellow]

It's official. I want to be single forever. o_o

[ardianto]

When I was teen, there was a family that lived near my home. They have three kids. Boy, girl, boy. The age difference to the each was one year. The youngest was in the same age with me.

One night, after Isha time, I visited their home and I saw the mother stood on terrace, she looked worry. I asked her
"What happen, aunty?"
"My daughter! she hasn't back home in this time!
"But you never worry when your sons back in midnight"
She scolded me "They are boys! they can protect themselves! but she is a girl! if something bad happen to her, then how?!"

Few moment later her daughter came. Then the mother scolded her daughter due to "made the parent so worry".

In another time. I visited their home. The mother told me that there was a problem. The oldest son ran from home and brought the family car. She need my help. So...
"What can I do for you, aunty?"
"Find, and bring back to me"
"Okay, I will find your son and bring him back to the home"
"No! you misunderstand. I don't need that boy. I just need that car. Find that car and bring back to me!"

Next day when I rode motorbike with the youngest son accidentally we found him. So, we took the car and left that boy on the street. The mother applause me with "good!". The boy himself back to home a day later, and the parent welcome him with "Still need a home, don't you?"

That's the difference between boy and girl :)

[Iceee]

one night, after isha time, i visited their home and i saw the mother stood on terrace, she looked worry. I asked her
"what happen, aunty?"
"my daughter! She hasn't back home in this time!
"but you never worry when your sons back in midnight"
she scolded me "they are boys! They can protect themselves! But she is a girl! If something bad happen to her, then how?!"

few moment later her daughter came. Then the mother scolded her daughter due to "made the parent so worry".

In another time. I visited their home. The mother told me that there was a problem. The oldest son ran from home and brought the family car. She need my help. So...
"what can i do for you, aunty?"
"find, and bring back to me"
"okay, i will find your son and bring him back to the home"
"no! You misunderstand. I don't need that boy. I just need that car. Find that car and bring back to me!"

next day when i rode motorbike with the youngest son accidentally we found him. So, we took the car and left that boy on the street. The mother applause me with "good!". The boy himself back to home a day later, and the parent welcome him with "still need a home, don't you?"

LoL, that's funny.

[Trying2bbetter]

I used to be quite a feminist when I was in school. I used to think men & women are equal, that women should be allowed to wear whatever they liked and that men should learn to control themselves rather than expecting women to alter themselves. I used to literally dream about beating guys up. But it was all while I was in a girls' school. Once I entered the "real" world I figured men & women have their biological (physical & mental) differences, that they cannot be friends, that there are inevitable differences. I started reading the Quraan which also helped me understand (and accept) things much better.

I think this picture describes it the best :)

<unable to post picture - I haven't posted on IB enough times yet> :(

If you google "equality vs justice" images you'll see what I'm talking about (3 people with different heights standing on boxes)


Basically, justice isn't equality, justice is where people are treated fairly and reasonably. An old person should be given a place to sit rather than a young, fit person. According to equality, both get half the time to sit, or share the space uncomfortably. But in essence, old people are more frail, so they should be given the opportunity to rest their bodies.

Example - If a man goes out alone it doesn't automatically make it appropriate/fair for women to do so too. Ladies, please don't take offence. I truly wish I could be super strong too, but it's just not the way Allah planned, and Allah knows best. We should definitely try & be as strong as we can, but expecting crazy results isn't sensible. We can't *generally* beat guys at physical fights. Similarly, there are a lot of other things where one gender does better than the other. The art is to accept it and turn the differences into synergies. :statisfie

[Ahmad H]

Pretty much any Islamic scholar will say that men and women are not equal. I think that it is obvious, and if anyone is angry at hearing that then they need a reality check. A feminist who thinks she can be equal in every respect to a man ought to take it upon herself to fight a man in a physical fight and see if she stands up to him. Similarly, a man who thinks he is the exact same thing as women are should see if he could give birth to any children. He also cannot breastfeed any children and cannot wake up at night as easily as a woman can to a child's crying, etc.

The other thing is that there are many other differences which people aren't aware of that I would rather not go into detail about since I am still ignorant of their reality. But I know enough to say myself and agree with anyone who states that men and women are not equal. Fair treatment is definitely the right way to describe the way men and women should treat each other. Both of them have different roles in society and not the same. Islam has the solution to that issue. It's just a matter of people gaining knowledge on the rules in Islam and why they are the way they are. Again, like most problems about Islamic principles, the root is ignorance of the religion.

[ardianto]

Pretty much any Islamic scholar will say that men and women are not equal.

In status as human, men and women are equal. The one is not higher than another.

However, men and women are different. It's created different gender role with many inequalities. In example, the husband have duty to make money to fulfill the wife needs, while the wife is free from duty to make money for the husband. In matters like this men and women are not equal.

Are men and women equal in Islam?. Yes and no. Depend on context.

[GodIsAll]

Agreed.
In GENERAL (with exception) there are things that males perform better in. There are things that females perform better in. We often perceive things very differently.

A simple example: If I ask my wife were the personal property tax receipts for our vehicles in 1999, she'll tell me, "Downstairs. Blue desk, left hand drawers, middle drawer. Manila envelope 1/2 to the back." And she will be right. Every time. I try not to ask all the time, but it could take hours for me to find that, if at all. I am glad when I know where my car keys are in the morning.

On the other hand, I have no idea how she finds anywhere she is going on her own. Women generally amaze me with their lack of orientation to their surroundings. This is typical, with exception.

In short, she is amazing with organization and remembering such things. I, on the other hand, am a total nincompoop. I have an internal compass and map, she would get lost going anywhere New. There are many other strengths and weaknesses and we're aware of this.

Isn't that the way it was intended to be? A partnership where a married couple together can accomplish so much more together?

[GodIsAll]

LoL, that's funny.

Ardianto, even with all he's been through lately, is still good for a story that makes me laugh everyday.

[Karl]

Women will be "equal" to men when men will be "equal" to God.

[ardianto]

A simple example: If I ask my wife were the personal property tax receipts for our vehicles in 1999, she'll tell me, "Downstairs. Blue desk, left hand drawers, middle drawer. Manila envelope 1/2 to the back." And she will be right. Every time. I try not to ask all the time, but it could take hours for me to find that, if at all. I am glad when I know where my car keys are in the morning.

Women have good memory. While men?, sorry, I mean me. I can't remember how many times my wife told me "you forget everything, forget everything! if your hand could be removed and replaced you must be forget where you put your hand!"

Ooh, a memory with my beloved wife.

Ardianto, even with all he's been through lately, is still good for a story that makes me laugh everyday.

That boy was very naughty. Escape from home was his habit, no wonder if his parents had getting bored with it. But his parents didn't worry because he's a boy, like described in first part "They are boys! they can protect themselves! but she is a girl! if something bad happen to her, then how?!".

By the way, there was a joke among the boys when I was teen

"When our sister didn't back home on time, our parents were worry. When our parent lost their favorite stuff, they search it everywhere. But when we escape from home, our parent were calm and relax. So, if we want to escape from home, we should bring our parent favorite stuff, then they will search us everywhere"

[Muhaba]

An excellent article.

By saying that men and women are the same and by not acknowledging the differences between the sexes, what is happening is that women are being turned into men. How else can women be the same as men if not by turning women into men. This is why we now have women doing a lot of things that were once men's work, like even construction work and heavy labor. So when you start making women into men, it basically means that "femaleness" is an inferior thing. To be a woman is inferior. That's not equality with men. That's acknowledging men's superiority and women's inferiority and even uselessness unless she work's like a man, thinks like a man, behaves like a man, etc.

[observer]

An excellent article.

By saying that men and women are the same and by not acknowledging the differences between the sexes, what is happening is that women are being turned into men. How else can women be the same as men if not by turning women into men. This is why we now have women doing a lot of things that were once men's work, like even construction work and heavy labor. So when you start making women into men, it basically means that "femaleness" is an inferior thing. To be a woman is inferior. That's not equality with men. That's acknowledging men's superiority and women's inferiority and even uselessness unless she work's like a man, thinks like a man, behaves like a man, etc.

I think that it's more equally of opportunity. If my girlfriend wants to work in construction and she can do the job - why shouldn't she?

I disagree that equality of opportunity leads to the inferiority of women - I think it actually promotes the opposite. You hear similar things said about the feminisation of men - a man staying home with the baby whilst his wife works, for example. I don't think that's true either. Again, if my girlfriend's job was better paid than mine, why wouldn't we choose for me to stay home? It wouldn't make me less "manly" or her less "womanly".

Obviously practically, many jobs may be unsuitable for one sex or the other, but it should be on a case-by-case basis as to whether an individual is suitable for the work. The days of "womens' work" or "mens' work" are, hopefully, over.

[ardianto]

I think that it's more equally of opportunity. If my girlfriend wants to work in construction and she can do the job - why shouldn't she?

There are women in my place who work in construction projects, but not as construction worker who put the bricks to on the wall. Those women are working in other division like design or project administration.

Every woman must be have feminine nature although the level of feminine nature may different between one woman and another woman. The feminine nature make women in my place avoid job that too masculine except if they have no other choice.

Excuse me, are you sure your girlfriend would work as construction worker if she has other choices?

I disagree that equality of opportunity leads to the inferiority of women - I think it actually promotes the opposite. You hear similar things said about the feminisation of men - a man staying home with the baby whilst his wife works, for example. I don't think that's true either. Again, if my girlfriend's job was better paid than mine, why wouldn't we choose for me to stay home? It wouldn't make me less "manly" or her less "womanly".

Wow, wow, if you live in my place you would be laughed if you choose to stay at home just because your partner is paid better.

There are husbands in my place who have salaries lower than their wives, but they still work and not stay at home and live with the wives money.

Yes, this is related to manliness value.

Obviously practically, many jobs may be unsuitable for one sex or the other, but it should be on a case-by-case basis as to whether an individual is suitable for the work. The days of "womens' work" or "mens' work" are, hopefully, over.

I have enough much experiences in looking for employees for my companies or the company where I was working. I've ever opened job opportunities with clasification "for man or woman". However, there are some consideration that made me also opened job opportunities that for man only or woman only. It's because I knew the difference between men on women. So I tried to "put the right person in the right place"

[observer]

Excuse me, are you sure your girlfriend would work as construction worker if she has other choices?

Well, my girlfriend doesn't want to work in construction, but if she did - why shouldn't she?

Wow, wow, if you live in my place you would be laughed if you choose to stay at home just because your partner is paid better.

There are husbands in my place who have salaries lower than their wives, but they still work and not stay at home and live with the wives money.

Yes, this is related to manliness value.

Where I live we don't measure masculinity like this. It's fine for a man to stay at home with the kids if he wants, I don't see that as "unmanly" at all.

[insann]

No body ever said why the man has to support the family while the woman should not even if she has money.

[rahmanny]

The ideal spouse that you should focus on is the one that when you look at that person you have no trouble in saying MashAllah, SubhanAllah, and inshAllah, but hopefully not Astagfirullah. Sister's check this out.

[ardianto]

Few weeks ago I was sitting in a food stall when a woman came. I saw there's no empty chair. Then I stood with intention to give my chair to her. But just I stood, and before I invite her to sit, a man suddenly sat on the chair that I left. So, I stood and she was standing too. Because this man, who didn't know how to respect a woman.

:hmm:

Men and women are different. All men know it. But unfortunately not every man know how to treat women in proper way, as a woman.

[Karl]

No body ever said why the man has to support the family while the woman should not even if she has money.

Allah gives you freedom of choice. You don't have to do anything. You can have a pre nuptial agreement to anything you please. If your future wife is rich, a bulk of it can be transferred into the husbands account so the man supports the family. It would make no sense for a man to toil all day for a pittance to support a rich wife.

[Karl]

Yes - so on what grounds would any secular state intervene to prevent any individual or group of individuals from entering a particular profession? Why should women be prevented from taking any job, if they proved themselves good enough to get the offer in the first place? Why should the state decide instead of the employer, who surely knows his/her own business best?

Physical jobs are in decline in the west (because of automation and the decline of heavy industry) so strength is less and less of an issue every year. It has turned out that women are at least as good as men in a whole range of jobs from which they were formerly discouraged or even barred. Why should the state make that judgement rather than the individual employer?

As an individual, I want complete equality of access to every profession - but I don't look for favouritism. I don't expect that some groups (eg women) should be removed from the competition altogether, just to make life easier for me. I also don't expect that any group, whether men or women, should be given unfair advantage over me. If I look for equality for myself, I have to be prepared to give it back to everyone else.

Whatever I achieve, I want to achieve by my own abilities, not because the opposition was artificially eliminated.

The main reason employers throughout the ages didn't like to employ women was because they got pregnant or if they didn't get pregnant they got period pain. Lets face it, you would rather employ a bullock to pull the load than a cow. Generally a females prime directive is to have babies the males is to provide for the family and to defend the family. The Soviets really pushed for equality, have you seen a Russian woman? Some of them can pick up a horse!

[Karl]

Well, my girlfriend doesn't want to work in construction, but if she did - why shouldn't she?



Where I live we don't measure masculinity like this. It's fine for a man to stay at home with the kids if he wants, I don't see that as "unmanly" at all.

Yeah some African cultures are like that. The women do all the work and the men just hang around chatting, but the men will defend the village and give the women some stick if they don't get their chores done. Sounds good to me LOL.

[greenhill]

Yeah some African cultures are like that.

Like the Akha Tribe of northern Thailand where the women do the work and the men sit round and smoke opium . . +o(