My question is am I a sexist or a bad person to say the sexes meaning Men and Women a

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truthseeker63

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As Salaam Alaikum

My question is am I a sexist or a bad person to say the sexes meaning Men and Women are not Equal in a Material sense but only in a Spiritual sense I don't agree with Western Secular Feminism. I don't believe that Women should act like Men and Men should act like Women this is what Western Feminism believes and teaches anyone agree thank you by the way I don't hate Women I respect and love Women ?

TheDC: Would men and women be equal?
AC: Well, it depends on the type of case. You see, what we believe is, we don’t believe in equality. We believe in distinction of gender and distinction of responsibility. So, in a certain respect, a woman is more important and has a greater role than a man, and, in other respects, the man has a greater role and is more important than the woman. Just an example, the woman is more intelligent when it comes to the children, when it comes to her role and responsibility as a mother and so on. Then, the man is usually, for example, in the public arena. He is usually good with things like penal code matters, and so he’s the one who has to go out and provide, even if the woman is rich. She can stay at home and won’t have to lift a finger �“ it’s up to the man to do all the work, and provide her with food, clothing and shelter. The woman is treated like a queen in the home. She is a princess.


http://news.yahoo.com/interview-transcript-anjem-choudary-talks-thedc-20110227-224902-313.html



THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT AND
THE MUSLIM WOMAN
Maryam Jameelah

The most radical movement in recent times which is revolutionizing the whole social structure and changing the entire basis of human relationships is the Feminist movement, popularly known as the drive for Women’s Liberation.
The Feminist movement is not a unique product of the modern age. Its historical precedents reach back into antiquity. In his Republic, Plato advocated the abolition of the family and social roles determined by sex; in literature, the ancient Greek classical comedy, Lypsistrata and much marc recently, Henrick Ibsen’s (1828-1906) drama, A Doll’s House preached feminist ideals. The Victorian economist and philosopher, John Stuart Mill and the German socialist, Friedrich Engels in his essay, The Subjection of Women, which he wrote in 1869, laid the core foundations of Feminism. In 1884 Angels publicly proclaimed marriage as a “dreary mutation of slavery,” urged its abolition and suggested public responsibility for the rearing of children.
In America, Feminism was the outgrowth of the movement for the abolition of slavery and the Temperance movement for the legal banning of liquor. Women who joined these organizations soon discovered that to make their cause effective, they required political power. The historical milestone of the Feminist movement was the Seneca Falls Convention in 1948 which in its manifesto, demanded women’s rights to her complete control over her property and the he right to divorce her husband, guardianship of the children and an end to sexual discrimination in­ employment along with the right to receive equal pay with men for the same work, and most important, female franchise. As the campaign for women’s suffrage grew, the more conservative Feminists limited their cause to the single issue of suffrage. In 1920 with the passage of the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] amendment to the American constitution giving women the vote, the majority of women activists as ‘well, as the public assumed that with female franchise, women’s rights had been fully obtained. After this, the Feminist movement lay dormant for more then than forty years.
​
On December 14, 1961, President John F. Kennedy signed an Executive order establishing the President’s Commission on the status of women. Its mandate was “to examine and recommend remedies to combat the prejudices and obsolete customs and morals which act as obstacles to the complete realization of women’s rights.” The President’s Commission was the first official body ever to examine the status of in the United States.
Thus the “silent fifties” came to an abrupt end with the beginnings of Feminist confrontation politics in the early 1960’s – marches, pickets and sit-ins. College and university girls began to participate in these political activities.
In contrast to the women who assembled at the Seneca Falls Convention in 1848 and merely protested against the ill-treatment and abuse of women by drunken husbands and achievement of their legitimate rights in marriage, control of property and earnings and equal pay with men for the same work, the demands of the modern successors are far more radical. In the largest most enthusiastic Feminist demonstration ever held, on August 26, 1970, hundreds of women marched down Fifth Avenue, New York City carrying placards which read:
HOUSEWIVES ARE UNPAID SLAVES! STATE PAY FOR HOUSEWORK! OPPRESSED WOMEN! DON’T COOK DINNER! STARVE YOUR HUSBAND TONIGHT! END HUMAN SACRIFICE! DON’T GET MARRIED! WASHING DIAPERS IS NOT FULFILLING! LEGALISE ABORTION! DEPENDENCY IS NOT HEALTHY STATE OF BEING!
Today’s Feminists are implacably opposed to any social roles being determined by sex. Feminists assert the absolute and unqualified equality of men and women, not withstanding anatomical differences. They deny that there is any inherent biological distinction between men and women on the basis of sex which determines that the wife should be the housewife and mother and the husband the breadwinner and authoritarian head of the family. They believe that women should take just as active role in sexual intercourse as men and not be passive. They demand the abolition of institutional marriage, home and family, asset complete female sexual freedom and that the upbringing should be a public responsibility. They insist that all women should be given the right to complete control over their reproductive lives. They are demanding that all restrictions must be lifted from laws governing contraception so that devices can be publicly advertised and available over the druggist counter to any women regardless of her age and marital status and purchasable without a doctor’s prescription. All laws restricting abortion should be removed and that women have a legal right to abortion at any stage of pregnancy. Abortions should not only be available at demand but should be supplied free by the state to any women who wants one so that the poor can take full advantage of facility.

http://www.islam101.com/women/jameelah.htm

Feminism is not the same thing as women's rights. People oftentimes get these two confused. Feminism is a sin; but, human rights certainly are not. Human rights are granted at birth, and apply to everyone. In contrast, feminism is rebellion, i.e., rebellious women refusing to submit to their husbands (or refusing to marry because they won't be ruled over). Some feminists are so "militant" about their rebellion that they are referred to as "femi-Nazis." Feminazis like to destroy other people's marriages. Sometimes feminists refuse to marry, and strongly resent other women who are happily married. Many feminists CHOOSE to become lesbians. Homosexuality is a choice—no one is born homosexual. Feminism and homosexuality are inseparable. You show me a homosexual, and I'll show you someone who hates the King James Bible (which condemns homosexuality as a morally reprehensible sin. See Romans 1:22-32).

The feminist movement in America is trying to castrate men by DEMANDING equal authority. The idea that it takes a man to do certain jobs is repulsive to a feminist. Yet, who do we ALWAYS see holding the flag when we drive by a construction site? ... a woman! It's the men who are doing the rough work. Also, feminists are completely quite when it comes to the unfairness of child support and alimony payouts that men are often forced to pay! What hypocrites! Feminist women want EQUAL rights when it's to their advantage; but, they don't want EQUAL rights for the man.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in America/Feminism/feminism_is_evil.htm
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You do not sound like a sexst. Just conservative like myself. I hold the same ideals about marriage as you do and nothing is wrong with it.
Secular Feminism is truly an evil creation and only promotes stupidity and is degrading to women by merely existing. It survives as a testament to female insecurity and not female progression like it use to.
Nobody is equal and it is not solely based on gender. :statisfie
 
truthseeker63 said:
Sir Fluffy I agree with you.
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*kindly tips hat*

Always remember though that sexism is a word fashioned by those who feel insecure.
The ideas and actions of men in the 1800's was deemed normal yet now it seems sexist. When people progress they should always remember that labels are attached to ideas and all ideas are debatable You cannot prove a person sexist because it has no unified meaning. You can go around the world and people will know what murder is but id you ask them what sexism is they will each have different interpretations and some will have none as it does not exist.
 
Secular feminism has made women think that they can live a life exactly like men do. This is unbelievably wrong, since women and men are, first and foremost, biologically different. This determines how differently they live their lives. This is why differences come up in Islamic law with regards to men and women. Men can earn money without any biological hindrances, women, on the other hand, require maternal leave, where they cannot work because of their pregnancy at the late stages. Imagine if the woman dies from giving childbirth, then what is the dependent husband supposed to do, especially when he has children? The earning differences for men and women is there for a reason. Women are not equal to men in terms of earning for the livelihood of a household. It's as simple as that. Feminism fails here.

Men are stronger physically, no matter how much women care to dispute that. There are exceptions where some women become stronger than men, but these are rare exceptions. In order to deal with the dangers of the outside world, women need men. I tried to allow women I see at work lift things by themselves, but they honestly can't most of the time. They tell me to lift it for them. I would say, "Go ahead. You're strong." They decline almost all the time. Even women know they are physically weaker than men. They know it. Therefore men and women are not physically equal in strength comparisons. Feminism fails again.

Men are also able to rule without much difficulty, while for women, for the most part, it is very difficult for them to rule. One reason is that women are not able to make cold-hearted decisions when the time comes. Many of them stumble or fall apart when that situation is presented to them. Those are critical times for countries. Maybe some women can, but the probability is very low, thus it is very risky to let women lead. Another reason is also biological, when a woman menstruates, her hormones are all erratic. In general, women's hormones can go haywire for certain biological reasons and their ability to deal with tough situations is difficult, yet again. Therefore, women should not rule and let men do the ruling, they are not equal here. Feminism fails yet again.

All of this shows that men have to be the guardians and maintainers of women, because they are stronger than them physically, and they also earn the household livelihood. Society runs on money, therefore, the earning person's money has to be asked for by the wife because that money was what he earned, not her. The wife's duties are to guard the household, which she is made a master of in a sense. She can handle the house by keeping her husband's property safe and his wealth. She protects the children and she raises them. The husband is the maintainer of the family in general, therefore he maintains his wife as well. There is a very good Hadith which puts everything into perspective:

It has been narrated on the authority of Ibn 'Umar that the Holy Prophet (May be upon him) said: Beware. every one of you is a shepherd and every one is answerable with regard to his flock. The Caliph is a shepherdover the people and shall be questioned about his subjects (as to how he conducted their affairs). A man is a guardian over the members of his family and shal be questioned about them (as to how he looked after their physical and moral well-being). A woman is a guardian over the household of her husband and his children and shall be questioned about them (as to how she managed the household and brought up the children). A slave is a guardian over the property of his master and shall be questioned about it (as to how he safeguarded his trust). Beware, every one of you is a guardian and every one of you shall be questioned with regard to his trust. (Book #020, Hadith #4496)
(Sahih Muslim)

All of this falls in line with the Qur'anic verse:

4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

This verse is so true, that present times and history bears witness to its truthfulness.
 
While, yes, men are, generally, physically stronger than women. Intellectually they are on the same level.
And what about women who are unable to conceive, or women who are past their fertility years? There is no hinderance there in a workplace.
Regardless, you can still raise a family and work, if you so desire.
Also, about women not being able to rule? It's not true, there have been many great women who have been just as successful at leading as men are.
This sounds like a property law, as if a man should own the woman.
I understand that this is a major differing of opinion, and I don't mean any offense. But women aren't defenseless little creatures.
 
Not at all. I pointed out that the roles of ruling, family guardianship and livelihood earnings are better done by men since there aren't nearly as many biological hindrances. Not that women cannot do them, but these are primary roles meant for men. Infertile women would not have these issues, true. So it is likely that they would be fine at performing in them in terms of doing them to take care of a family. Hazrat Khadijah (ra) was a highly respectable businesswoman in her lifetime, so I am not ruling out that women should not work. I am ruling out that women should work to the detriment of raising children. Children come first. If a woman can raise her children without working, then she should do so because otherwise her children will grow up confused and corrupt. This is an indisputable fact for me, because I have seen so many cases where children have both parents working, so they believe they can do what they want since they aren't supervised. It happens every time. This is why it is discouraged in Islam.

However, since the women in Islam are mainly there for raising children, we have to consider the consequences of being a ruler of a nation. Rulers can be assassinated and they are often in danger from most of the public, especially bitter political enemies. also, the time required for ruling for a woman would interrupt her being able to raise her children herself for the most part. They would instead require someone else to take care of them in her stead. The primary role of taking care of children comes first and foremost for women, and that would include ruling a country since raising the next generation is very important in Islam. Without the proper upbringing of the next generation of Muslims, the Deen suffers a lot. Yes, the mother can have great help from others, but her duties assigned by Allah is the guardianship of the children and the household. That alone requires an immense amount of time and dedication. This is the reason why I mentioned the above Tradition of the Holy Prophet (saw).

Should there be any other ways you know of for women to be able to rule, then by all means let me know. If it can be done within the time which a woman can allot besides taking care of her husband's wealth, property and her children, then I will gladly hear it. But every Muslim is responsible for what Allah has made them responsible for.

It is another thing when a woman cannot have a child, or when she is, let's say, homeless and has no wealth. Add to that, let us assume she does live somewhere, but it is in a palace made for the leader of a nation and her family lives there. She is the primary earner of livelihood and she only lives with her husband, unable to bear children. Thus, she has all of the time in the world to work solely for her nation. Perhaps in that case it works. But if a woman is able to bear children, then that becomes her primary duty. To have children and raise them well under her care, not someone else's primarily. If she doesn't raise the children mostly herself and devotes more of her time to her country, it will very likely allow some resentment or ill-feelings from her children later on in their lives.

So my point is that women are not defenseless creatures. I think very highly of what women can do. We cannot ignore islamic teachings. Feminism fails in every account because it aims to remove the biological differences between men and women. That was my argument above. But if you put in the responsibilities made for men and women in Islam, then a woman becoming a leader is, for the most part, out of the question. The next generation of Muslims comes first, and that is the primary duty of the mother, first and foremost. There is a reason why Paradise is under the feet of mothers for children, and why the Holy Prophet (saw) urged his Sahaba to be dutiful towards their mothers three times more than their fathers. The mothers primarily take care of their children and make them into people fit for functioning well in society, as well as being good Muslims who please Allah. That is a very high rank. The children are so close to the mother, that if a woman loses two or three children in infancy, then Paradise becomes incumbent on that mother because of the high loss for her in this life. So the children are her life for the most part.

And finally, no, men do not own women. They are not men's property. This is a silly idea to take from what I said. Men are supposed to take care of women and their children like a guardian. This does not imply ownership. When does a guardian own a person? A guardian looks after a person with love and affection, not like a property owner. If roles were switched, and men were instead the ones who bore children, then everything would have been very different, and instead men would have been at home raising children and women would have been all out working to make the livelihood for their families. But this is not the case.
 
In my view Feminism being good or bad depends on how a person defines Feminism if Feminism means Women's Rights than Im all for it.
 
I believe Men and Women can be Equal in both a Material sense and in a Spiritual sense but it depends on how a person defines Equality. I think Non Muslim Women are Oppressed.
 
I believe in equality of women as well, but Feminism isn't the way to do this. Whether or not it started out as only that, it can be construed as so many things. Some women are Feminists in that they believe women should be superior to men (which defeats the purpose of feminism altogether) and some are actually working for the freedom of oppression of women.

Call it whatever, Feminism or whatchamacallit, but it is the duty of every person to stand for the rights of women. That needs no label or name. I don't believe any name does it justice since there are usually a lot of women who call themselves feminists that stand against Islamic principles. This is why I am opposed to the idea of Feminism liberating women. It is a pity that women in many Islamic countries are forced by their governments to follow certain islamic rules, despite the fact that government should not interfere with Islamic principles. Once this changes, then women will be less oppressed in Muslim countries. No government should control people's spirituality. Spirituality is personal, while things such as hudood punishments, societal issues are better controlled by the government. Women shouldn't be forced to wear Hijab or anything. It has driven so many women away from Islam it's unreal.
 
What about women who don’t necessarily want to get married. Or, the women who don’t want kids? Or, women who wish to wait a few years to have children? Not everyone is quite mature enough of financially secure enough to be able to successfully provide for children, especially at an early age. These are huge changes that you need to be absolutely prepared for.


They can’t have a career in the interim?


I’m 21 and work full time to provide for myself so I can be independent, I don’t want to rely on someone for my own well-being. And for someone to say that ‘women are mainly there for raising children’ seems degrading.


My biological differences between my male coworkers hasn’t diminished my capabilities in performing my job. I’m competent and professional.


I’m not trying to say that motherhood isn’t wonderful, because it is. I have the utmost respect for my mother and all mothers. But, women don’t have to be just mothers and the keepers of the house. They can be so much more.


I don’t think dependency is at all a healthy practice. What if something happens to the husband? You talked of the mother perhaps dying in childbirth. Men aren’t invincible. Accidents happen all the time. Be it car wreck, illness or murder.


If the worst did happen and a husband, who is the sole provider in a household, died, how would the family manage if the mother doesn’t know how or can’t provide for her family?
There needs to be some sort of balance.
 
Ahmad H said:
Some women are Feminists in that they believe women should be superior to men (which defeats the purpose of feminism altogether)
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That's not feminism, thats sexism.
Women can do it too. And it's utterly hypocritical.
Some women have a chip on their shoulder against men, just because.
 
Women can work, obviously. My point is that motherhood is primary since the next generation is the most important thing for us humans.

As for when something happens to a man such as an accident or death, that is always possible. That is the main reason why it should be men who go out into the world and put their life on the line. Women are more important in staying alive for the sake of raising children. But since when did women go in large numbers to do labor work in place of men? Not many. Labor work is necessary, and it is mostly a job for men to do. If that is sexist, then I guess pointing out a very basic difference in physicality between men and women is sexist then.

As for your independence, that's fine. But in Islam, women and men both have their own roles. It is about religious duty after all, that is the underlining fact about it. It is why men pray in front of women, and why the sexes remain segregated for the most part for their own good.

Camilla said:
That's not feminism, thats sexism.
Women can do it too. And it's utterly hypocritical.
Some women have a chip on their shoulder against men, just because.
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I am not hypocritical. I never said it was alright for men to say they were better than women. I clearly said that men and women should be both treated equally in society. If it seems I am hypocritical about my views concerning women from the religious standpoint, then that's your mistake since I believe in freedom of religion. If there are Muslim women, I would expect them to follow the Holy Qur'an and try to be what God expects them to be when they believe in Him and stick to their principles, not throw them aside and become hypocrites.

Let me define what I meant by men and women being equal. Equality between both sexes means that both are free to live as they choose without their being any discrimination between them. They should be able to earn equal wages, participate in all levels of government (that includes rulership, it is only discouraged among Muslims) and so on. I was never saying women should be barred from rulership or earning wages. It is mainly discouraged in Islam for the reasons I stated above.

If you consider yourself independent, then fine. But independence isn't everything in Islam. Islam strongly encourages the community aspect of life and keeping unity between neighbors, friends, relatives, family members, far relatives, etc. Depending on others doesn't necessarily mean weakness. There are men who have women who work instead. sometimes that can work. It just means roles reverse. It isn't encouraged in Islam, but it can in some exceptions work. What Islam speaks for is the way of life which works best for humans. There is a hidden wisdom in the Qur'an concerning these matters. Whether we fully understand it or not as Muslims isn't the issue. What we Muslims do care about is equal opportunity like everyone else. It isn't a battle between the sexes. it is adhering to what Allah has commanded us to be.
 
Ahmad H said:
But since when did women go in large numbers to do labor work in place of men? Not many. Labor work is necessary, and it is mostly a job for men to do. If that is sexist, then I guess pointing out a very basic difference in physicality between men and women is sexist then.

As for your independence, that's fine. But in Islam, women and men both have their own roles. It is about religious duty after all, that is the underlining fact about it. It is why men pray in front of women, and why the sexes remain segregated for the most part for their own good.



I am not hypocritical. I never said it was alright for men to say they were better than women. I clearly said that men and women should be both treated equally in society. If it seems I am hypocritical about my views concerning women from the religious standpoint, then that's your mistake since I believe in freedom of religion. If there are Muslim women, I would expect them to follow the Holy Qur'an and try to be what God expects them to be when they believe in Him and stick to their principles, not throw them aside and become hypocrites.

Let me define what I meant by men and women being equal. Equality between both sexes means that both are free to live as they choose without their being any discrimination between them. They should be able to earn equal wages, participate in all levels of government (that includes rulership, it is only discouraged among Muslims) and so on. I was never saying women should be barred from rulership or earning wages. It is mainly discouraged in Islam for the reasons I stated above.

If you consider yourself independent, then fine. But independence isn't everything in Islam. Islam strongly encourages the community aspect of life and keeping unity between neighbors, friends, relatives, family members, far relatives, etc. Depending on others doesn't necessarily mean weakness. There are men who have women who work instead. sometimes that can work. It just means roles reverse. It isn't encouraged in Islam, but it can in some exceptions work. What Islam speaks for is the way of life which works best for humans. There is a hidden wisdom in the Qur'an concerning these matters. Whether we fully understand it or not as Muslims isn't the issue. What we Muslims do care about is equal opportunity like everyone else. It isn't a battle between the sexes. it is adhering to what Allah has commanded us to be.
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I agree with you on physical labor. Men WILL be better at those types of jobs. Ladies can try, but at the end of the day, the work will be subpar.

My quote of sexism wasn't directed towards you, personally. I was actually in agreement with you. I was calling women who claim that they're feminists and superior to men hypocrites.

I think we have a culture difference, but I don't consider you sexist at all. You seem respectful to me.

And I am very close with my family, and my friends; but I can't expect to be taken care of my entire life. I don't know, it seems ungrateful.

I understand where you're coming from in which a mother should be there for a child. I think all mothers would put family before a career, if they could. I know I would if I were in that position. But sometimes its not possible to make ends meet.
In an ideal world, absolutely. But the world is far from perfect.
 
bro the majority of the west would consider me sexist because i do not consider men and women to be equal except for in value before the eyes of Allaah
 
Camilla said:
I understand where you're coming from in which a mother should be there for a child. I think all mothers would put family before a career, if they could. I know I would if I were in that position. But sometimes its not possible to make ends meet.
In an ideal world, absolutely. But the world is far from perfect.
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Exactly. I am glad we both agree on all of this. And yes, I think we are from different cultures. Thinking back on it my last post had that tone to it.
 
truthseeker63 said:
I think Non Muslim Women are Oppressed.
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I don't think I'm oppressed thank you. I don't agree with the scantily dressed women in music videos or how plastic women are thrust in our faces in the media but at the end of the day I drive, work and make my own decisions in life. Which is how it should be. Women should be allowed to choose whether they want to work, have a family or both (I don't think children should be neglected for a career though). I don't look down on women who decide to be housewives, which seems to be the opinion of non-Muslim women. At the end of the day you should do in life what makes you happy.

I also disagree that women can't make good leaders because we'll "fall apart" making tough decisions. I find that patronising. At the end of the day have been a number of successful and popular female leaders throughout history. Elizabeth I, Joan of Arc led an army, love her or hate her Margaret Thatcher was certainly no weak woman. Women are perfectly capable of leading.

I feel the whole "women are left at home and don't have to lift a finger" "treated like a Queen" is just a way to sweeten them to the idea of staying indoors. Besides being a mother and housewife hardly involve not lifting a finger and won't make you feel like a Queen.
 
LauraS said:
I feel the whole "women are left at home and don't have to lift a finger" "treated like a Queen" is just a way to sweeten them to the idea of staying indoors. Besides being a mother and housewife hardly involve not lifting a finger and won't make you feel like a Queen.
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From what I understand, people bring this up when they are comparing the career perspective. What they are saying is that women are not required to work thereby treated like a Queen. They are not comparing roles.

LauraS said:
at the end of the day I drive, work and make my own decisions in life. Which is how it should be. Women should be allowed to choose whether they want to work, have a family or both (I don't think children should be neglected for a career though). I don't look down on women who decide to be housewives, which seems to be the opinion of non-Muslim women. At the end of the day you should do in life what makes you happy.
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Thats okay but saying thats how it should be imposes that all women are capable of doing that. Thing is, when one woman sets the standards, then the rest are expected to follow that. Saying that what you are doing is an exception is a better stance because then that would not impose your opinions on all women.
 
White Rose said:
From what I understand, people bring this up when they are comparing the career perspective. What they are saying is that women are not required to work thereby treated like a Queen. They are not comparing roles.


Thats okay but saying thats how it should be imposes that all women are capable of doing that. Thing is, when one woman sets the standards, then the rest are expected to follow that. Saying that what you are doing is an exception is a better stance because then that would not impose your opinions on all women.
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I'm confused, I said it was ok for women to decide whether they are housewives or work. I didn't say all women must work. That's basically how it is in the UK, my cousin is a housewife and spends happy days looking after her children. No one has a problem with it and she doesn't feel under pressure to get a job.
 

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