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Ahmad H
05-19-2013, 03:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
You completely missed my point which is that some verses of the Qur'an have a meaning that only Allah knows, for example can you tell me the meaning of the ayat 36:1 Ya-Sin. [These letters are one of the miracles of the Qur'an, and none but Allah (Alone) knows their meanings].?
I find it odd that everyone on this forum reads only Tafsir Ibn Kathir and fails to look at any other Tafsir. If you go to www.altafsir.com you can read up the meanings of such verses:

Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas on verse 36:1
And from his narration on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas that he said upon the interpretation of the saying of the Creator, glorified is His mention, (Ya Sin.): '(Ya Sin.) He says: Ya Sin, O human being, in the Syriac language.

There you go, a very wise scholar has already given us the meaning of these words. Now, I understand your point that not every verse of the Qur'an can be completely known in our lifetimes, this is why it is a miracle and a guidance until the Day of Judgment. There are things which have not happened yet that are to happen which will be revealed over time. As for allegorical meanings, there are scholars from the distant past in Islam who have already uncovered a lot of these meanings which everyone somehow believes cannot be there only because Ibn Kathir did not have these meanings listed.

I think it is irrational to believe Allah would reveal verses to the Holy Prophet (saw), for which no one would EVER be given the understanding. I think that comes close to blasphemy, seeing as we would not be able to follow the meaning of a verse which Allah clearly directed towards us to eventually know, not to tell us something that is impossible for us to know. Read up on more Tafsirs, you will find that some verses are explained in one Tafsir while they are not explained in another. Last time I checked Ibn Abbas was a very respected scholar as well.
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Insaanah
05-20-2013, 01:09 PM
:salam:

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmad H
a very wise scholar has already given us the meaning of these words
He hasn't given us the meanings of these letters. He has given us his interpretation of them:

he said upon the interpretation of the saying of the Creator, glorified is His mention, (Ya Sin.): '(Ya Sin.) He says: Ya Sin, O human being, in the Syriac language.
Some people have ventured into what they may mean, but at the end of the day, the meanings of those letters was not narrated to us by the one to whom they were revealed, so truly, nobody knows their meaning. What we read, are people's interpretation of what they might mean on various grounds.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmad H
As for allegorical meanings, there are scholars from the distant past in Islam who have already uncovered a lot of these meanings which everyone somehow believes cannot be there only because Ibn Kathir did not have these meanings listed.
If Allah says in the Qur'an says there are verses of allegorical meanings, then that means there are and always will be.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmad H
I think it is irrational to believe Allah would reveal verses to the Holy Prophet (saw), for which no one would EVER be given the understanding.
But this is based on personal thinking of what is rational/irrational, which is not the best way to approach the Qur'an. Indeed there have been sects that used their own rationalism on deciding what was blasphemy and then veered away from the truth based on that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmad H
I think that comes close to blasphemy, seeing as we would not be able to follow the meaning of a verse which Allah clearly directed towards us to eventually know, not to tell us something that is impossible for us to know.
You would not need to follow those verses, because they are not verses that give ahkaam (commands).

The following extract from the book Usool at-Tafseer by Dr Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips is worth a read :ia::

Since the Qur'aan addresses the mysteries of man and his world, there are, of necessity, vague and obscure references to aspects of realities about which man's knowledge is limited. Some of these references may only be understood in relationship to other verses, while the reality of other references cannot be understood at all. For example, the letters of the alphabet with which some of the soorahs of the Qur'aan begin have no obvious meanings in themselves. Although they were used in ancient Arabic poetry, they were never used at the beginnings of verses, and the context would always indicate the intended meanings.

However, with regard to the Qur'aan, it has been noted by the early scholars that there is a mathematical relationship between the introductory letters and their
occurrence in their respective soorahs, as well as in the other soorahs of the Qur'aan itself. For an illustrative example, let us examine Soorah Qaaf, which begins as follows:

"Qaaf, By the Glorious Qur'aan." (50:1)

It has been shown that the Arabic letter Qaaf occurs more frequently in this soorah than any other letter of the Arabic alphabet. Also, the ratio of Qaafs to the total number of letters in this soorah is higher than in any of the other one hundred and thirteen soorahs of the Qur'aan.

However, the intended meaning of the letter Qaaf is unknown. Some commentators of the Qur'aan have speculated that it is abbreviation for the word "Qur'aan," while others have proposed that it represents the phrase, "qudiyal- amr," ("the matter has been destined"). Since the last Prophet, Muhammad :saws:, to whom the Qur'aan was revealed, did not explain its meaning, and the grammatical context in which it is used does not indicate any obvious meaning, we can only honestly say that Allaah alone knows its reality.

Another example in relation to man himself is that of the rooh (soul). Its existence is confirmed by revelation, as well as human experience, but its reality is unknown to man. Allaah, in the Qur'aan, points out its origin for us, saying,

"They ask you about the rooh; tell them, 'The rooh comes from my Lord's command.' " (17:85)

Hence, we know that the soul is created, but as to what it is created from, Allaah alone knows. We know other things about it, like the fact that an angel is
responsible for placing it in the fetus at the beginning of the fifth month of its development, and another angel is responsible for extracting it from the human
body when its appointed time of death has arrived, etc. But how it was created, its form, its place in the body, or how it is connected to the body is not part of our knowledge.

In relation to man and his world, an example can be found in the references to the next life and the final hour. Fruits and drinks of paradise and Hell are mentioned by name, but as Ibn 'Abbaas :ra: explained, only the names are similar; their realities are totally different. Allaah Himself indicates that by mentioning some of their unique qualities, such as rivers of flowing milk that never sours or wine that does not intoxicate, a scale that weighs deeds and the skins of those doomed to the Fire, which grow back again as soon as the fire has burnt them.

Similarly, knowledge of the appointed time for the end of this world is unknown. Although many of the signs have been mentioned in the Qur'aan and Sunnah, and the process of disintegration has been vividly described, the exact time of its occurrence is completely hidden from man. Hence, Qur'aanic references to the Final Hour and the components of the next life are always vague.

The Qur'aanic verses that speak on the mysteries of creation and the Creator in such a way that their reality remains obscure are referred to as the mutashaabihaat." The Qur'aan has described itself in various verses as being entirely muhkam, in one verse as being entirely mutashaabih, and in another verse as being partially muhkam and partially mutashaabih. There is no contradiction here, because the first two cases use the words in their general sense, while the final one uses the words according to a more technical meaning. Since the general meaning of the Arabic term muhkam is "perfected" or "completely formed," the whole Qur'aan may be referred to as being muhkam in respect to it construction, its logic, and its message. Hence, we find Allaah referring to the Qur'aan as follows:

"Alif, Laam, Raa. A Book from the Wise and Aware (Allaah), whose verses were made muhkam, then explained." (11:1)

Likewise, Allaah applied the general meaning of mutashaabih, "mutually resembling one another" or "similar," to the whole Qur'aan in the following verse:

"Allaah has revealed the best speech (in the form of) a mutashaabih book repeating (its message)." (39:23)

That is, all of the verses of the Qur'aan resemble each other in their rhythmic and poetic perfection, and they all mutually confirm each other's meanings.

However, the specific meanings of these two terms play a very important role in the science of tafseer. Those meanings are contained in the following verse, along with a very stern warning:

"It is He Who revealed the Book to you; in it are muhkamaat verses which are the essence of the Book (umm al-kitaab) and other (verses) which are mutashaabihaat. As for those whose hearts are twisted, they follow the mutashaabih, seeking to sow discord and searching for its inner meanings, but no one knows its inner meaning except Allaah. And those firmly grounded in knowledge say, 'We believe in it, as it is all from our Lord.' Yet, none will realize (this) except the wise." (3:7)

Hence, the muhkam could be defined as those verses whose meanings are clear, and the mutashaabih as those verses whose inner meanings are known only to
Allaah. 'Aa'ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) reported that once the Prophet :saws: recited the above mentioned verse and said,

"If you meet those who seek out the obscure verses (mutashaabih), they are the ones whom Allaah has named in the Qur'aan, so beware of them. " (Saheeh al Bukhari 70)

The concepts of muhkam and mutashaabih provide a set of guidelines by which the Qur'aan should be understood. The system of fiqh (Islaamic law) has evolved from the muhkamaat verses. The early scholars concentrated on those verses which had direct relevance to human actions, the verses which could be applied and interpreted according to logical and universally acceptable grammatical principles. However, those who sought to destroy the message of Islaam from within began their attack at the very source, the Qur'aan. The muhkamaat verses do not lend themselves to philosophical interpretations. Hence, the mutashaabihaat became the pillars upon which counter-Islaam was built, and Allaah's names and attributes became the starting point. For example, Allaah describes Himself in Qur'aan as al-Baseer, the Seer, and as-Samee', the Hearer, among His many names and attributes. During the era of the Prophet :saws: and that of the four Righteous Caliphs after his death, the sahaabah understood the verses containing these attributes according to their obvious meanings without delving into the why and the hows. To them, Allaah sees and hears all things without resembling His creation in any way. However, after the era of the sahaabah, the argument was raised by some that seeing and hearing were human or animal characteristics which required particular sensory apparatuses not befitting the Lord God Almighty. He had already said in the Qur'aan that:

"Nothing is like Him." (42:11)

As a result, a school of philosophy known as the Jahmeeyah arose, which denied Allaah's names and attributes. Out of this school evolved another, the Mu'tazilah,
which toned down clearly heretical statements of Jahm ibn Safwaan with Greek logic and rationalist interpretations of the texts of the Qur'aan and Sunnah. Under
the patronage of the early ' Abasssid rulers, this school engulfed the Ummah, to the degree that its concepts became the norm, and those who opposed them were
systematically persecuted. Allaah's names were recognized, but were made void of any meaning, and His attributes of sight and hearing were taken to mean
knowledge.

In time, there arose others among the Ummah who claimed that all of the Qur'aan was mutashaabih and that they alone knew its real meanings. They called
the outer meanings the thaahir or the Sharee'ah and the inner meanings were termed the baatin or the haqeeqah. Some claimed that the inner meanings were
handed down secretly through the Prophet's descendants, whom they named imaams, while others claimed that they were passed down through a chain of
shaykhs or spiritual leaders.

Fortunately, the Qur'aanic description of this trend as being a result of twisted hearts and deviation and the Prophet's warning to the Muslim Ummah to avoid those who take this path aid us in continuing to hold high the essential purity and clarity of the Qur'aanic message contained in the muhkamaat verses.
http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Usool%20at-Tafseer.pdf


And Allah knows best.
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Ahmad H
05-20-2013, 04:37 PM
What Bilal Philips said is true in its own right. I am not going to dispute that. But I wouldn't take his explanation over the most reliable Tafsir of all time, which is by Hazrat Ibn Abbas. In Tafsir Al-Tabari, the same explanation is given as well. The chains of transmission he uses are from the early eminent companions who narrated to him such as Ikrimah and Ibn 'Abbas as well. They narrated this same meaning of "O mankind" for the meaning of Ya Sin. They are prominent next to the Holy Prophet (saw), not Bilal Philips who is of this modern age and not a Successor to the early commentaries of the Qur'an directly. I would think someone who lives closest to the time of the Holy Prophet (saw) would be more reliable. I have given a webpage in which the early commentators are given a good rank in order of who is the most prominent:

http://www.sunnipath.com/library/books/B0040P0024.aspx

I don't know if it is right to say that because the Holy Prophet (saw) didn't transmit this directly himself, that the meanings of Ya Sin are not known. Here is verse 3:7:

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

It says in the end, "and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding." I am not a man of understanding, but these early companions and successors were. I am not trying to create discord as this verse is saying about allegorical meanings. I am not making this interpretation myself. But neither were these eminent scholars making anything up. Just because some of the modern scholars are not aware of this, it doesn't mean it isn't there. Tell me one good reason by Ibn Abbas, and Al-Tabari who conveyed the same meanings were wrong.
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Hulk
05-20-2013, 05:26 PM
Brother are you saying that there are men who understand the Quran as much as our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)? Or are you hinting that it is possible?
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Ahmad H
05-20-2013, 06:26 PM
Not everything was transmitted through Ahadith. There are eminent companions who learnt the Tafsir from Rasul-e-Karim (saw). They are considered trustworthy. Again, I give you the following link:

http://www.sunnipath.com/library/books/B0040P0024.aspx

This link tells you who was the most knowledgeable in the Qur'an close to the time of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw). There are scholars who knew these meanings of the Qur'an better than anyone does now. If anyone should be listened to, they are. Ibn Kathir listed them in his Tafsir as well and he used their interpretations as well. Why Ibn Katheer didn't use the meanings of the Muqatta'at, I don't know. But either way, it is indisputable that scholars like Ibn Abbas, Mujahid, Ikrimah, etc., were very learned men and the ones from whom pretty much everyone else understood the Qur'an from.

No one knew the Holy Qur'an better than Rasul-e-Karim (saw), but I must advise you that he personally prayed for Hazrat Ibn Abbas to become knowledgeable on the Qur'an:

Narrated Ibn Abbas: Once the Prophet embraced me (pressed me to his chest) and said, "O Allah, teach him wisdom (i.e. the understanding of the knowledge of Qur'an)." (Book #57, Hadith #100)
(Sahih Bukhari)

This is a very well-known Hadith. I am not speaking from my own opinion here. I am surprised that no one else is backing me up here because on other forums people discuss Ibn Abbas' tafsirs.

I have to admit one mistake though, I forgot that the Tanwir Al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas is not actually from Ibn Abbas. It is thought to be from him but in reality it is not. But, Ibn Abbas is recorded to have given the same interpretation in Tafsir Al-Tabari, which quotes the other reliable scholars as well.

Again, I don't know why most scholars today ignore this. But the Tabi'in are recorded in the early Tafsirs to have given such interpretations. To say that no meanings exist for these verses is a very grave misunderstanding. Allah alone knows the true meaning of the verses, yes, but we can't ignore the meanings which have been transmitted to us from reliable sources.

May I remind you that Hazrat Ibn Abbas also gave meanings of the Qur'an at a very early age which even Hazrat Umar Farooq (ra) agreed with?

Narrated Ibn Abbas : 'Umar used to admit me (into his house) along with the old men who had fought in the Badr battle. Some of them said (to 'Umar), "Why do you allow this young man to enter with us, while we have sons of his own age? " 'Umar said, "You know what person he is." One day 'Umar called them and called me along with them, I had thought he called me on that day to show them something about me (i.e. my knowledge). 'Umar asked them, "What do you say about (the Sura): "When comes the help of Allah and the Conquest (of Mecca) And you see mankind entering the Religion of Allah (i.e. Islam) in crowds. 'So celebrate the Praises Of your Lord and ask for His forgiveness, Truly, He is the One Who accepts repentance and forgives." (110.1-3) Some of them replied, "We are ordered to praise Allah and repent to Him if we are helped and granted victory." Some said, "We do not know." Others kept quiet. 'Umar then said to me, "Do you say similarly?" I said, "No." 'Umar said "What do you say then?" I said, "This Verse indicates the approaching of the death of Allah's Apostle of which Allah informed him. When comes the help of Allah and the Conquest, i.e. the Conquest of Mecca, that will be the sign of your Prophet's) approaching death, so testify the uniqueness of your Lord (i.e. Allah) and praise Him and repent to Him as He is ready to forgive." On that, 'Umar said, "I do not know about it anything other than what you know." (Book #59, Hadith #588)
(Sahih Bukhari)

Yet another piece of evidence on his remarkable knowledge which Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala gave him. This was definitely in response to the blessed prayers of Hazrat Rasul-e-Karim (saw). I cannot find any points to dispute this. Isn't is nice to have a reliable authority on the Qur'an, the most reliable, from whom you can learn the meanings of Ayats which you previously didn't know?

To me this seems airtight. If anyone has read up on anything that disproves Hazrat Ibn 'Abbas' authenticity for his knowledge on the Qur'an, then please tell me otherwise. I would like to hear what other scholars have said about him. And please also mention At-Tabari, for he gathered a very detailed Tafsir as well. I can't see any point of contention since even Ibn Kathir is said to have used his Tafsir as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir_al-Tabari
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Snel
05-20-2013, 06:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmad H
http sunnipath com library/books/B0040P0024.aspx
Please don't quote sufi websites when you wish to make a point.
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Hulk
05-20-2013, 07:28 PM
No one is denying that there are men who are knowledgable in the Quran, clearly there are. However, you must be careful in getting into a situation where you think you know exactly what an ayah means. That's blind to one's own fallibility.
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Ahmad H
05-20-2013, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
No one is denying that there are men who are knowledgable in the Quran, clearly there are. However, you must be careful in getting into a situation where you think you know exactly what an ayah means. That's blind to one's own fallibility.
When did I say that I knew exactly what the Ayah means? Right near the end of my last comment i specifically mentioned that Allah knows best in the end. And I am not saying that I am interpreting the Ayah, but we should consider the reliability of some scholars over others, because clearly they were of a higher rank in their Tafsir of the Qur'an.

my point is that Ibn Abbas is more reliable than anyone else. So if anyone is more correct in what they say, and in fact is very likely so, then we should consider that opinion over the saying that, "Only Allah can know what these letters mean" and just end it at that. Take what Ibn Abbas said and take it seriously. He was alive when Rasul-e-Karim (saw) was, and Rasul-e-Karim (saw) prayed for him to be knowledgeable in Tafsir. Clearly, he is of a much higher rank than anyone else. Add to that, someone like Hazrat Umar Farooq (ra) displayed his remarkable intelligence in Tafsir of Qur'an to other Sahab who fought in Badr with Rasul-e-Karim (saw). I mean, how much more do I need to show you that his opinion should be taken above others' opinions?

What makes it right to disregard the Tafsir of such an eminent companion? I am not just saying there are knowledgeable men in the Qur'an, I am saying THE most knowledgeable one is indisputably Ibn Abbas, and what he said should be taken over what any other modern or other classical scholars who came after Ibn Abbas said. Rather than saying, "Only Allah knows and we can't know", clearly Allah gave knowledge to Ibn Abbas and He allowed his words to make it through to us today. We should be thankful to Allah and appreciate that we know what His words mean because He gave that knowledge to Ibn Abbas over anyone else. Rasul-e-Karim (saw)'s prayers should not be taken lightly. He was a beloved of Allah.

None of this is my own opinion here. Again, take the opinion of a more knowledgeable scholar above other scholars who are obviously less knowledgeable. Not every scholar that came after Ibn Abbas knew the full Tafsir of every verse of the Qur'an. But they definitely took from what he said. So they would know very little without him. Again, we should regard this and be thankful to Allah that He gave us such remarkable scholars. And might I add, he was very young too when the Holy Prophet (saw) died and when he was regarded as a knowledgeable scholar by the eminent Sahaba (ra).
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Hulk
05-20-2013, 10:15 PM
Actually I may have missed where you said "Allah knows best". And once again no one is asking you to disregard tafsir. The issue is that you seem to be saying that there are no verses in the Quran in which only Allah knows it's true meaning. You yourself said that we humans are limited in our observation. Then you say that you find it irrational to think that there would be verses in the Quran in which no one can know it's true meaning. Are we not limited in our understanding as well? Brother Mustafa was only giving an example of a mutashabihat verse.
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Ahmad H
05-21-2013, 12:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
Actually I may have missed where you said "Allah knows best". And once again no one is asking you to disregard tafsir. The issue is that you seem to be saying that there are no verses in the Quran in which only Allah knows it's true meaning. You yourself said that we humans are limited in our observation. Then you say that you find it irrational to think that there would be verses in the Quran in which no one can know it's true meaning. Are we not limited in our understanding as well? Brother Mustafa was only giving an example of a mutashabihat verse.
Understood. But my point was it isn't as if we know nothing of such verses. Only the men of knowledge know its meaning because Allah granted that to them and no one else. That is why we look at what these scholars have said. There is no verse of the Qur'an which Allah will put out of the reach of humans to at least somewhat comprehend. Only Allah has full knowledge of what He says. But that doesn't mean He has barred us from ever knowing what any of the verses say. I firmly believe that is contrary to Divine wisdom. That is why I pointed out that the verse he quoted actually did have an explanation.

I will probably start a thread on the issue of these Muqatta'at verses. It would be nice if everyone here saw what At-Tabari wrote about verse 2:1, "Alif Lam Mim" It is very interesting and it is worth looking at the interpretations by the Sahaba and eminent scholars on these letters.

It seems neither of us have any disagreements on this issue either. So I will end this and let everyone else get back to the real discussion here, which is on science and religion.
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