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Shasid
11-25-2013, 12:15 PM
Assalamu Aleykum Warahmullahi Wabarakatuhu :D. My dear friend, he is a Christian and he asked me a Question that if Isa (as) was a Muslim, he preached Islam and invited people to the true monotheism, Islam. HE WAS SENT ONLY TO ISRAEL..IS ISLAM ONLY FOR ISRAELIS?? So his main question is, is Islam only for Israelists? and then he gave me a tafsir from Ibn Kathir that he was not sent for the Children of Israel but to the whole World (according to him). The tasfir says(61:14): ...Isa sent the disciples to the various areas of Ash-Sham to call the GREEKS and the Israelites to Islam... So he asks if he was only sent to israel and to the Jews, why did Isa (as) sent his diciples to invite the Greeks? Can anyone answer this and my ENTER button is not working lol :D Jazakallah!
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Insaanah
11-25-2013, 11:21 PM
:wasalam:

See how some Christians know not only their books, but go into the tafseers to see what they can misinterpret, to give us da'wah, whereas as Muslims, da'wah is our duty, and we don't even know our own book let alone anyone elses.

The Qur'an is clear. Allah says:

And [I] will make him ['Iesa (Jesus)] a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allah's Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe. (3:49)

Your friend only needs to read two ayaat later after the verse he was looking up to find:

And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic." (61:6)

Jesus (peace be upon him) also says in the Bible:

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matthew 15:24)

So both books agree clearly that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent only to the Children of Israel. In the Qur'an, Allah is telling us, and no word is truer than His.

Tafsir Ibn Katheer gives no reference for the statement about Greeks being invited to Islam. It says that the disciples were sent to various areas of ash-shaam. Ash-Shaam is not the land of the Greeks. However, there were some Greek speaking Israelites around at the time. Maybe there were some Greeks that had travelled there, who would hear the message being conveyed to the Israelites. Perhaps this is what is meant. All we can say is Allah knows best. But this does not change or alter the fact that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent to the Children of Israel, nor does it suggest that he went contrary to his mission (na'oothu billah).

Maududi gives this insight on Greek speaking Jews/Christians:

[...] the language spoken by the Prophet Jesus and his contemporary Palestinians was a dialect of the Aramaic language, called Syriac. More than 200 years before the birth of Jesus when the Seleucides came to power Hebrew bad become extinct in this territory and been replaced by Syriac. Although under the influence of the Seleucide and then the Roman empires, Greek also had reached this area, it remained confined only to that class of the people, who after having access to the higher government circles, or in order to seek access to them, had become deeply Hellenized.....
It is also worth noting this, about how Christianity began to be preached to non-Israelite communities;

The earliest followers of the Prophet Jesus (peace be on him) believed him only as a Prophet, followed the Mosaic Law, did not detach themselves from the other Israelites in the matter of beliefs, religious in junctions and rites of worship, and differed from the Jews only in that they had affirmed faith in the Prophet Jesus as the Messiah (the Christ) whereas the Jews had refused to acknowledge him as the Messiah. Later, when St. Paul entered this community, he started preaching and proclaiming this religion also to the Romans and the Greeks as well as other non-Jewish and non-Israelite communities.

For this purpose he invented an altogether new religion, the beliefs, doctrines and injunctions of which were entirely different from those taught by the Prophet Jesus. This man had never met the Prophet Jesus but was a bitter enemy of him during his lifetime, and even remained an enemy of his followers for several years after him. Then, when he entered his community and started inventing a new religion, he did not cite any saying of Jesus as his authority but based everything on his own inspiration. The only object before him while framing the new religion was to make it acceptable to the gentile world. He declared that a Christian was free from all restrictions of the Jewish Law. He abolished all restrictions of the lawful and the unlawful in food. He repudiated the circumcision, which was particularly disagreeable to the non-Jewish world. So much so that he innovated the doctrine of the divinity of Christ and his being son of God and the Atonement for the original sin of mankind by dying on the Cross, for it immensely suited the polytheistic taste of the common man. The early followers of Christ resisted these innovations, but the flood gate opened by St. Paul caused a huge multitude of the non-Jewish Christians to enter this religion against whom the handful of true Christians could not stand for long. However, until about the end of the 3rd century A.D. there were still many people who denied the divinity of Christ. But in the beginning of the 4th century (in 325 A.D.) the Nicaea Council recognized the Pauline doctrines and admitted them as the basis of Christianity. Then the Roman Empire itself turned Christian and in the reign of Emperor Theodosius, Christianity became the state religion. Consequently, all the books that clashed with this doctrine were declared as heretical, and only those books were held as canonical which agreed with it...
Source: the meaning of the Qur'an, by S. A Maududi, commentary to Surah as-Saff, Surah 61
http://www.englishtafsir.com/quran/61/index.html

As to Islam being only for the Children of Isra'eel, no, it is for the whole world. However, each messenger, prior to Muhammad :saws: , was sent to their respective nations, and for a specific time period. However, Allah knew with His foreknowledge, that those religions messages would get distorted by people, and would not remain the original message sent, thus a new messenger would be sent. It was with His wisdom, that the final messenger Muhammad :saws: was sent to all the world, and his message is the only one to remain undistorted and in tact, as Allah has promised to preserve it, thus no need for any new messenger. So Islam is indeed sent for all the world, not any distortions.

And Allah knows best.
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greenhill
11-26-2013, 02:12 AM
Salaam,

There are other historical posts on this subject too. Do look them up.

Peace :shade:
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Sojourn
02-08-2014, 04:56 PM
Peace be with you all,

I'll only comment on the following:

Originally Posted by Insaanah
:wasalam:
Jesus (peace be upon him) also says in the Bible:

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matthew 15:24)

So both books agree clearly that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent only to the Children of Israel. In the Qur'an, Allah is telling us, and no word is truer than His.
Jesus primary mission on earth was to gather the lost sheep of Israel, but in the same Gospel mentioned above he also said the following:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Matthew 28:18-20

It's clear that the Apostles engaged and baptized Gentiles, and that Paul's particular mission to spread the faith to Gentiles in the far reaches of the Roman Empire was confirmed by the Apostles as well.


Pax et Bonum
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greenhill
02-08-2014, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Jesus primary mission on earth was to gather the lost sheep of Israel, but in the same Gospel mentioned above he also said the following
Yes, in the same Gospel he said a whole Gospel's worth of things. :p

Isa's mission is for the lost sheep of Israel. Seeing as he had a pure message, people followed his teachings, except those whom his message was intended for, the lost sheep of Israel.


:peace:
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Sojourn
02-08-2014, 06:13 PM
Peace,

Originally Posted by greenhill

Isa's mission is for the lost sheep of Israel. Seeing as he had a pure message, people followed his teachings, except those whom his message was intended for, the lost sheep of Israel.
The Jews of Jesus' time were staunch monotheists, yet they were still lost.

Just an aside : )
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MustafaMc
02-09-2014, 04:47 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
From my perspective, Jesus (as) did not abolish Jewish law, but rather he taught the spirit of the law which is captured in Mark 12:28-31 “Which commandment is the first of all?” Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (I find it interesting that he bebins with "Hear, O Israel..." and how similar 'The Lord our God, the Lord is one' is to 'la ilaha ill'Allah".) I feel that the essence of Jesus' teaching is the Golden Rule as exemplified by the parable of the Good Samaritan and that of humility and serving others per his washing the disciple's feet. I also see he taught reconciliation not through his death, but through repentance per the parable of the Prodigal Son and Matthew 9:13 Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” I see that he also taught his disciples against self-righteousness of the Pharisees and their adherence to Law over being kind and merciful to others. Fundamentally, I believe his message was to the Jew to bring life to their 'spiritually dead' practice of the law revealed to Moses'.
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Sojourn
02-09-2014, 07:24 AM
Peace be with you,

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
From my perspective, Jesus (as) did not abolish Jewish law, but rather he taught the spirit of the law which is captured in Mark 12:28-31 “Which commandment is the first of all?” Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (I find it interesting that he bebins with "Hear, O Israel..." and how similar 'The Lord our God, the Lord is one' is to 'la ilaha ill'Allah".) I feel that the essence of Jesus' teaching is the Golden Rule as exemplified by the parable of the Good Samaritan and that of humility and serving others per his washing the disciple's feet. I also see he taught reconciliation not through his death, but through repentance per the parable of the Prodigal Son and Matthew 9:13 Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” I see that he also taught his disciples against self-righteousness of the Pharisees and their adherence to Law over being kind and merciful to others. Fundamentally, I believe his message was to the Jew to bring life to their 'spiritually dead' practice of the law revealed to Moses'.
I can see some semblance to La Illaha IlAllah in the verse you correctly quote above, for God is one divine being upon which everything depends. Nothing can exist outside of his will, and were He to stop willing it or forget us for even a moment, we would enter into immediate non existence. We are therefore infinitely in debt to God for bringing us into existence and compassionately maintaining us, it is therefore right and just to offer him sole adoration, supreme worship, and ceaseless praise. He exceeds our limited intellect, and even His oneness is so perfect and absolute that it escapes any resemblance in the created world, for although I may be one man I am composed of many parts, but God is without parts and therefore absolutely simple. We can meditated upon His oneness for all eternity, and it will never be sufficient to grasp the greatness that He is, for He truly is greater than anything we can imagine.

This is an undeniable truth and we can profit by discussing it but the topic at hand is not the nature of Jesus' mission but its scope. And so when he answered the Jewish alim with "Hear Oh Israel..." he was not limiting the scope of this commandment to only the Israelites and there descendants, rather he was doing what any good Jewish alim would recognize as quoting the famous passage in Deuteronomy 6:4, the Shema Yisrael, thereby settling a dispute between the Jewish ulema and further emphasizing the need for both true faith and great love. I will only add that though this is a beautiful and sublime teaching, and one we must always recall, it does not encompass the primary mission of our Lord, for if it did, the Jews would not have charged him with blasphemy (i.e. shirk) and sought his execution.

Let us ponder the Evangelist's proclamation:

"Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world."


Pax et bonum
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MustafaMc
02-09-2014, 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
This is an undeniable truth and we can profit by discussing it but the topic at hand is not the nature of Jesus' mission but its scope.
I agree, but I find it interesting that you keyed in on what I had written as an aside (in parenthesis) and that you did not comment on the rest of the verse. What follows this declaration is essential to the nature of Jesus' mission for if we misunderstand his mission then we can read into his life and supposed death (Lamb of God) whatever we wish to do as Paul so obviously did with his claims of 'revelation from God' that he makes in Galatians. If his mission was to bring a message of mercy and brotherly love to the people of Israel AND to prophesy the coming of Prophet Muhammad (saaws) as the 'Good News', then the question of who he was sent to is clarified.
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Sojourn
02-09-2014, 05:03 PM
Peace be with you,

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I agree, but I find it interesting that you keyed in on what I had written as an aside (in parenthesis) and that you did not comment on the rest of the verse. What follows this declaration is essential to the nature of Jesus' mission for if we misunderstand his mission then we can read into his life and supposed death (Lamb of God) whatever we wish to do as Paul so obviously did with his claims of 'revelation from God' that he makes in Galatians. If his mission was to bring a message of mercy and brotherly love to the people of Israel AND to prophesy the coming of Prophet Muhammad (saaws) as the 'Good News', then the question of who he was sent to is clarified.
I can agree that having a proper understanding of Jesus' mission is very important, I'm not so sure though we need to delve into it here, and I have already provided an explicit quote of Jesus' great commission to the Apostles, to go out to evangelize and baptize all nations, and that's exactly what they did. From the beginning the Church set it's mission for all, there was never a dispute whether the Gentiles were called to part of this mission. There was an early debate on whether Gentile converts needed to be initiated into Judaism first, but never whether they were part of Jesus' mission.

As with most differences between us the issue ultimately boils down to theology. You believe Muhammad is the final prophet, the greatest model for all mankind, and the message he revealed in the Quran intended for all nations. I believe the finality of revelation already terminated with the coming of Jesus the Messiah, the son of God, who's sublime teaching and eternal covenant is meant for all ages and for all nations.
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greenhill
02-09-2014, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
The Jews of Jesus' time were staunch monotheists, yet they were still lost.
I believe they had chosen to be lost. If Jesus had allowed interest, it may have been a different story. But interest was not allowed, the Jews could not accept it, so they took a defiant route, they lost.


:peace:
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MustafaMc
02-09-2014, 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
From the beginning the Church set it's mission for all, there was never a dispute whether the Gentiles were called to part of this mission.
What about Jesus' answer to the Canaanite woman pleading for her daughter? He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” And he answered, “It is not fair to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” Matthew 15:24-27

I believe this ayat is most pertinent, And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings [aka the Good News] of a messenger [Muhammad] who comes after me, whose name is the Praised One. Yet when he came unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic. Quran 61:6

Of course, believing that Jesus was sent both to the Jew and to the Gentile (via Paul Galatians 2:7-8) is important to your faith, but from my perspective he was sent only to the Jews who were the monotheists of his time. I do not see that he was sent to bring monotheism to the polytheistic pagans of Palestine, but rather to bring enlightenment to the Jews for them to learn the importance of being merciful to their fellow human beings. Did Jesus' commission to the disciples include the most important commandment "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one?" If not, can we assume they were being sent out to a people who already believed that to be true - meaning to other Jews? What portion of the gospels indicate a message of monotheistic faith? If there is none, then can that be assumed to be a given precondition of the people listening to Jesus' parables and sermons?

In stark contrast, Muhammad (saaws) most definitely was sent to bring monotheism to the polytheistic Arabs of Mecca first then to Arabs of the surrounding area and then to the whole world, per the delegates sent to the powerful rulers of the time. Even as Moses was sent to liberate the Children of Israel from Egyptian bondage, so also Jesus was sent to liberate them from the shackles of a proliferation of manmade laws that were erroneously deemed to have been from God. Again, Muhammad's (saaws) mission was different for he was sent to an unbelieving idolatrous people.
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Ahmad H
02-09-2014, 10:26 PM
Tell your Christian friend that Jesus (as) was raised only for the Jews and no one else. Islam, before the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) was the Islamic law Allah had revelations for each and every nation. These nations had their own laws and those were specific to them. Then, the final law in Islam came and the Qur'an had a law for the whole world. This law stands until the Day of Judgment, but the law of Judaism and Christianity are both abrogated and whatever the Qur'an says contrary to it is correct, no matter what the Bible says.

The Bible was corrupted, and Jesus (as) was said to have gone out to other nations. But this is not true. He went out to other nations to gather the Jews to the law he was reforming. Jews were spread all over the world. This is seldom understood by many who think of Jesus' (as) mission. He wanted to gather all of the Jews under his wings. He did not intend to go after Gentiles.
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Sojourn
02-09-2014, 10:58 PM
Peace be with you,

It was prophesied:

“Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” says the Lord. “Many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you."

Zechariah 2: 10-11

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
What about Jesus' answer to the Canaanite woman pleading for her daughter? He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” And he answered, “It is not fair to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” Matthew 15:24-27
Jesus' mission was universal but it was to start with the lost sheep of Israel. The gentiles who approached our Lord were usually healed once they demonstrated faith in him, and with regards to this holy Canaanite woman he first tested her faith in him so as to extract an even greater faith which was then rewarded. It serves as a lesson to us to be perseverent in our prayers.
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I believe this ayat is most pertinent, And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings [aka the Good News] of a messenger [Muhammad] who comes after me, whose name is the Praised One. Yet when he came unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic. Quran 61:6
This verse does not exclude Jesus' universal mission starting with the Jews.

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Of course, believing that Jesus was sent both to the Jew and to the Gentile (via Paul Galatians 2:7-8) is important to your faith, but from my perspective he was sent only to the Jews who were the monotheists of his time. I do not see that he was sent to bring monotheism to the polytheistic pagans of Palestine, but rather to bring enlightenment to the Jews for them to learn the importance of being merciful to their fellow human beings.
Your perspective is shaped by what you believe, and so by accepting Muhammad as prophet you reject what ever contradicts what he revealed. If you were not influenced by his teaching then perhaps your perspective would be different.

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Did Jesus' commission to the disciples include the most important commandment "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one?" If not, can we assume they were being sent out to a people who already believed that to be true - meaning to other Jews? What portion of the gospels indicate a message of monotheistic faith? If there is none, then can that be assumed to be a given precondition of the people listening to Jesus' parables and sermons?

In stark contrast, Muhammad (saaws) most definitely was sent to bring monotheism to the polytheistic Arabs of Mecca first then to Arabs of the surrounding area and then to the whole world, per the delegates sent to the powerful rulers of the time. Even as Moses was sent to liberate the Children of Israel from Egyptian bondage, so also Jesus was sent to liberate them from the shackles of a proliferation of manmade laws that were erroneously deemed to have been from God. Again, Muhammad's (saaws) mission was different for he was sent to an unbelieving idolatrous people.
I'm not sure I'm capturing the thrust of your argument here. If you are trying to say that Jesus was sent to the Jews then we are in agreement, but if by this you are trying to suggest that his mission stops with the Jews, then we are in disagreement.


Pax et bonum
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MustafaMc
02-10-2014, 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
I'm not sure I'm capturing the thrust of your argument here. If you are trying to say that Jesus was sent to the Jews then we are in agreement, but if by this you are trying to suggest that his mission stops with the Jews, then we are in disagreement.
I was trying to show that the message indicates the nature of who it is meant for. The point of the thread is clarification about Islamic beliefs regarding who Jesus' was sent to as a messenger of Allah, it is not to debate differences in Christian and Islamic faiths. I have conveyed to the best of my ability what I believe as a Muslim and to provide examples to try to clarify those beliefs in terms and context that I thought could better convey those beliefs.
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Shasid
02-10-2014, 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Jesus' mission was universal but it was to start with the lost sheep of Israel. The gentiles who approached our Lord were usually healed once they demonstrated faith in him, and with regards to this holy Canaanite woman he first tested her faith in him so as to extract an even greater faith which was then rewarded. It serves as a lesson to us to be perseverent in our prayers.
Brother, you sent me a Private message but I can't answer you. I don't have 50 posts yet :)

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” And he answered, “It is not fair to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” Matthew 15:24-27

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one?"
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Shasid
02-10-2014, 12:44 PM
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” And he answered, “It is not fair to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” Matthew 15:24-27

ONLY.. ONLY.. ONLY












































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Ahmad H
02-10-2014, 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by Shasid
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” And he answered, “It is not fair to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” Matthew 15:24-27

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one?"
Very good, mashallah. I was looking for this reference to quote, but it seems Allah guided you to it.
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Shasid
02-10-2014, 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Very good, mashallah. I was looking for this reference to quote, but it seems Allah guided you to it.
Jazakallah Brother!

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” And he answered, “It is not fair to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” Matthew 15:24-27

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one?"

O' Christians! What is the definition of 'ONLY'?
And why didn't Jesus (pbuh) say: Hear, O Mankind: The Lord our God is one? If he was sent to the whole mankind?

Now if you say that he, himself said that he is sent to the whole mankind than he is must be ----- according to your Bible. Either he contradicted himself and was not sure if he is sent to Bani Israel or for the Mankind.
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Sojourn
02-11-2014, 12:55 AM
Peace be with you,

Originally Posted by Shasid
Jazakallah Brother!

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” And he answered, “It is not fair to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” Matthew 15:24-27

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one?"

O' Christians! What is the definition of 'ONLY'?
And why didn't Jesus (pbuh) say: Hear, O Mankind: The Lord our God is one? If he was sent to the whole mankind?

Now if you say that he, himself said that he is sent to the whole mankind than he is must be ----- according to your Bible. Either he contradicted himself and was not sure if he is sent to Bani Israel or for the Mankind.
In my experience Muslims are for the most part very diligent and careful when it comes to interpreting the Quran. A holistic approach is taken, hadith is consulted for additional support, and the soundness of argument is based logically. I don't understand why then the diligence seems to wane when addressing the sacred text of another faith. I understand it may not be part of your religion, but just as a matter of correctness the same approach should be applied.

So lets begin with the obvious, Jesus said "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel," and yet in that same Gospel less than ten chapters later he says, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". Obviously the Evangelist who recorded this gospel found no disunity between these verses, so obviously they were not seed as contradictory, and in fact there is no contradiction. Jesus did not appear among the Gentiles, rather he appeared among the Jews. When he taught, it was in synagogues or in other Jewish communities. When he first sent his disciples out he instructed them to only visit Jewish communities. Jesus did not actively seek out Gentiles during his ministry, but they did seek out him. But despite all this, he also indicated that his mission and message was intended to extend much further:

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

John 10:16

"When I have been lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people toward me."
John 12:32

So looking at this holistically we need not jump to the idea that we're dealing with a contradiction. Instead what we're seeing is that Jesus' message was intended for the whole world but it was to start with the Jews, as St Peter so eloquently explains to a group of gentiles:

"Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom theykilled by hanging on a tree. Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

"Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.


Acts chapter 10


Pax et Bonum


Addendum: I forgot to add I don't understand the motive behind Muslim's trying to limit the scope of Jesus' message. I suspect it has to do with the idea that the Quran is meant for all and that therefore Jesus' must have been a regional message, but interestingly enough I am not aware of anything explicit in the Quran that indicates the "Injil" was only meant for the Jews.
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greenhill
02-11-2014, 03:14 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
I forgot to add I don't understand the motive behind Muslim's trying to limit the scope of Jesus' message. I suspect it has to do with the idea that the Quran is meant for all and that therefore Jesus' must have been a regional message, but interestingly enough I am not aware of anything explicit in the Quran that indicates the "Injil" was only meant for the Jews.
I won't try to explain this as it would take too long. But in brief, It is the 1 God, the message is the same from Adam (a.s) throughout the ages to all prophet (peace be upon them all) and those messengers with the Scriptures, the Torah, the Psalms, the Bible and the Qur'an. Why did the Jews stop at the Torah, and the Christians with the Bible? So with every new revelation that came, the followers of the Word of God should have accepted and incorporated it into their life.


Originally Posted by Sojourn
In my experience Muslims are for the most part very diligent and careful when it comes to interpreting the Quran. A holistic approach is taken, hadith is consulted for additional support, and the soundness of argument is based logically. I don't understand why then the diligence seems to wane when addressing the sacred text of another faith. I understand it may not be part of your religion, but just as a matter of correctness the same approach should be applied.
The problem as I see it is that the Bible is not quite the same. If anything, it would be more closely associated to hadiths as it is an account of what happened and was said written by people (an interpretation) of what happened, or a narrative of what happened. The Qur'an on the other hand are memorized words of Allah, written and compiled within the lifetime of the prophet which exist until today. Translations are made using the original text as opposed to translated words from millennia passed. And the hadiths are actions and advises from the prophet pbuh that complements the understanding of the Qur'an. These two sources are not available in the Christian's faith so the same approach cannot be undertaken.

So when a muslim were to compare statements from the Bible, they only have the Qur'an to refer to. Although muslims believe that the Bible in its original form were the words of Allah, but the copies we currently have in circulation have been tampered with to the point of us (muslims and Christians) having this gap in belief. How could we then take into account what is written in the Bible except to believe that what Jesus spoke was true, but not necessarily what evolved from his teachings today. In another word, if we wanted to know what the context of the Bible was, we can get it from the Qur'an. Only difference is that it was told by a different prophet and that it also included laws that govern community living.


:peace:
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Sojourn
02-11-2014, 06:06 AM
Peace be with you,

Originally Posted by greenhill

I won't try to explain this as it would take too long. But in brief, It is the 1 God, the message is the same from Adam (a.s) throughout the ages to all prophet (peace be upon them all) and those messengers with the Scriptures, the Torah, the Psalms, the Bible and the Qur'an.
But the messages are not the same. Compare for example the Old Testament depiction of the afterlife or resurrection. You'll discover something startling, the Jews didn't have a concept of Heaven as you would understand, rather all a person could hope for was a gloomy place called Sheol. I think you'd also be startled to discover that the Jew were uncertain of a resurrection, and were debating it right up to Jesus' time. Of course, Christians accept a resurrection because Christ was the first to do so. And we believe in Heaven because he made it available and promised it to us. But why does Islam simply take heaven and resurrection for granted? I'm not looking for an answer, I'm simply pointing out that there are significant differences.

Originally Posted by greenhill

Why did the Jews stop at the Torah, and the Christians with the Bible? So with every new revelation that came, the followers of the Word of God should have accepted and incorporated it into their life.
Why do Jews and Christians read the books of the previous prophets but Muslims only read what Muhammad revealed? I honestly don't know!

Originally Posted by greenhill

The problem as I see it is that the Bible is not quite the same. If anything, it would be more closely associated to hadiths as it is an account of what happened and was said written by people (an interpretation) of what happened, or a narrative of what happened. The Qur'an on the other hand are memorized words of Allah, written and compiled within the lifetime of the prophet which exist until today. Translations are made using the original text as opposed to translated words from millennia passed. And the hadiths are actions and advises from the prophet pbuh that complements the understanding of the Qur'an. These two sources are not available in the Christian's faith so the same approach cannot be undertaken.
I agree the nature of the Bible as understood by Christians is not the same as the nature of the Quran as understood by Muslims. Jesus for one did not reveal any book that an angel revealed to him, and then he passed down verbatim to his followers. Instead, he is the Word that give life, and the Gospel is about his teachings, works, and most importantly death and resurrection. The Bible is the work of God through the Church. Jesus' life was recorded within living memory of his existence, but in a way unlike the Quran. Again, there was no angel dictating to the Evangelists what to write down, instead these men were inspired by God, such that even though God is the ultimate author the texts still retain the characteristics of their human authors.

Now you mention something which I will only mention disagreement with, namely that you have the "original text" of the Qu'ran.
Originally Posted by greenhill

So when a muslim were to compare statements from the Bible, they only have the Qur'an to refer to. Although muslims believe that the Bible in its original form were the words of Allah, but the copies we currently have in circulation have been tampered with to the point of us (muslims and Christians) having this gap in belief. How could we then take into account what is written in the Bible except to believe that what Jesus spoke was true, but not necessarily what evolved from his teachings today. In another word, if we wanted to know what the context of the Bible was, we can get it from the Qur'an. Only difference is that it was told by a different prophet and that it also included laws that govern community living.
The answer is rather simple, the Bible is not the corrupt text Muslims believe. Now part of this belief is theological, and so there's nothing I can really do that will convince a Muslim otherwise. --- There's a lot that could be said about this, but we'll have to stop here for now.


Pax et Bonum
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Shasid
02-11-2014, 09:43 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Why do Jews and Christians read the books of the previous prophets but Muslims only read what Muhammad revealed? I honestly don't know!
Because the Qur'an says that the other scriptures has been corrupted by the scribes and Allah (swt) says that rabbis was entrusted the Protection of the Torah etc.. Your statement:"Jews and Christians read the books of the previous prophets". Muslims don't want to read books written by any Prophet at all.The difference between Islam and Christianity is when the Qur'an says that the Torah was revealed Musa 'Alayhi Salam and the Injil to 'Isa 'Alayhi Salam, The Qur'an does not speak about books written many years after the Prophets as some Christians assume and then they want to prove from the Qur'an that the Bible is uncorrupted. But they're wrong!

The Qur'an has been memorized by million of Muslims around the world. But can I say the same for the Old or the New testament? No!
Have some people memorized the whole new testament? Not in English, but in greek? have they?

Secondly your statement that the Qur'an was revealed by Muhammad (saw) (Naudhubillah), the Qur'an gives an open challenge to humanity. 20 million Christian Arabs live in Saudi. Ask them to produce a Surah. The shortest Surah is Surah Al-Kwather.
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Shasid
02-11-2014, 10:32 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Now you mention something which I will only mention disagreement with, namely that you have the "original text" of the Qu'ran.
You can disagree with whatever you want. You've the right to that.

The Bible you have is not from any original text. The texts today are not based on original MSS but rather from copies of copies of copies of copies and remember that all these copies were written by hand and during the copying, changes were made.

The NT was written by Christians for Christians ; it was moreover written in Greek for Greek-speaking communities, and the style of writing (with the exception, possibly, of the Apocalypse) was that of current literary composition. There has been no real break in the continuity of the Greek-speaking Church and we find accordingly that few real blunders of writing are met with in the leading types of the extant texts. This state of things has not prevented variations; but they are not for the most part accidental. An overwhelming majority of the 'various readings' of the MSS of the NT were from the very first intentional alterations. The NT in very early times had no canonical authority, and alterations and additions were actually made where they seemed improvements
(Encyclopedia Biblica (Vol. 4. p. 4980)

"Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which we must, to a great extent, take for granted."
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712)

"The most distinguished body of academic opinion ever assembled" (Catholic Encyclopedias, Preface) admits that the Gospels "do not go back to the first century of the Christian era"(Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6).


"the conclusion of Mark is admittedly not genuine ... almost the entire section is a later compilation"
(Encyclopaedia Biblica, vol. ii, p. 1880, vol. iii, pp. 1767, 1781


"It thus appears that the present titles of the Gospels are not traceable to the evangelists themselves ... they [the New Testament collection] are supplied with titles which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those writings."
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, pp. 655-6)


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MustafaMc
02-11-2014, 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
I'm being facetious of course, but the point is, no matter what a scholar says, Muslims must out of theological necessity accept that parts are preserved, even if scholars agree it was supposedly invented (eg virgin birth, Zechariah, etc).
I as a Muslim and previously as a Christian have read the NT. There are portions of the NT, particularly the gospels, that I do not reject as being fabricated, but neither do I accept them as unadulterated revelation. I definitely do not endorse Muslims reading the Bible for guidance for it is difficult to glean the wheat from the chaff. It is an irrefutable fact that the message that Jesus brought to the Jews was not preserved intact, in fact even the Lord's Prayer is not preserved verbatim between Matthew and Luke. Using this short passage as an example, how is one to know what has been added or deleted from what Jesus actually said. In stark contrast, there is only one version of surah al-Fatiha that is recited in prayer at least 17 times a day by every Muslim and identically so around the world.
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Sojourn
02-11-2014, 05:19 PM
So the person who recites the Warsh version of aura Fatiha prays the same verses as someone praying the Hafs? How do we know if God revealed that Bismillah or not?
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MustafaMc
02-11-2014, 05:41 PM
Touche', you got me there. I include the Basmallah for each surah I recite during salah, but not all Muslims do.
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Sojourn
02-11-2014, 05:43 PM
But because there is some difference of opinion on this, I don't think the Qur'an can be disregarded. The same goes for the bible, in my opinion.
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Muhammad
02-11-2014, 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
So the person who recites the Warsh version of aura Fatiha prays the same verses as someone praying the Hafs?
Perhaps you've been reading the words of Jochen Katz, a Christian missionary who claimed that Hafs and Warsh Qirâ'ât are different 'versions' of the Qur'an. Such people thrive on the misquoting of references and juggling of facts. The truth of the matter is,

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
It is a common fallacy amongst non-muslims to make the mistake of confusing the authentic Qira'ât with variants, when the reality is they are all authentic recitations of the same verse revealed to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself, and transmitted from him to us through mutawâtir chains of transmission. They are not 'variants' as they do not arise from textual uncertainty.
Back to the Bible - you will have a difficult time trying to convince anyone of its textual integrity:



How do we know if God revealed that Bismillah or not?
The Bismillah is a verse of the Qur'an [27:30], so there's no doubt it is a revealed verse. How does this compare to entire Books in the Bible being thrown out?!
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MustafaMc
02-11-2014, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
Perhaps you've been reading the words of Jochen Katz, a Christian missionary who claimed that Hafs and Warsh Qirâ'ât are different 'versions' of the Qur'an. Such people thrive on the misquoting of references and juggling of facts.
Jazak Allahu khair for making this clear. I thought he was talking about reciting the Basmallah, or not during salah.
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Abz2000
02-12-2014, 06:17 AM
Assalamu'alaikum wr wb,
regarding the bismillah in surah fatihah, it seems some scholars included it as part in order to tally the seven oft epeated verses as mentioned in surah hijr verse 87, and indeed surah fatihah are the seven most often repeated verses a believer recites every day, one would need to look critically at the last two/three verses to see if the last verse in context of the one before it is one verse or two (Allah knows best). Before anyone gets dizzy consider that it is evident that the quran is a recitation and emphasis is placed on reciting and understanding the message in spirit and in context, not on counting commas and apostrophies as can be seen in the fact that recitations originally existed in different arab dialects to which the prophet pbuh did not seem to have an objection, and that it was even originally revealed in makkan and madinan dialects, it was only standardised into the language of the companions due to concern that it may change beyond recognition.
And if one wanted to argue that it is therefore not the word of God, theyd have to concede that everything in the bible is a fabrication since the israelite prophets didnt speak greek, the language in which the NT manuscripts exist. (and i myself dont believe that everything that exists in the bible is false, ths quran was at least restored to the original dialects as memorized by
The companions (may Allah be pleased with them) and from what was retained by hafsa may Allah be pleased with her.

Back to the original subject.
It is a fact that Jesus pbuh didnt ever come to bring a new law, just to fulfill adherence to the law of the lawgiven Prophet before him and bring it out of text alone and into actualization.
Earlier it was the law revealed to Musa (pbuh) that he came to strengthen and resolve differences in, and Musa (pbuh) was sent to the children of Israel.

Another task he was entrusted with was to give glad tidings of The Prophet to come after him, The Prophet who would bring a new law to the whole world is mentioned throughout the previous scriptures including the old and new testaments.
Anyone who has read the new testament carefully would know that the caliphate was about to be transferred from jerusalem and to a different nation. Google " jerusalem hen brood wings nation fruits kjv"

The scriptures explicitly tell us that when this universal decree comes He will no longer be called the God of israel alone but the God of the whole world.
Isaiah 54 makes references to the lines of abraham and more...

Finally it is an undeniable fact in islam the jesus pbuh is to again strengthen the universal law and not to bring a new one, and he is to fulfil it in actualization and not just text to the whole world.

So yes, he WAS sent to the children of israel whose progress and stumblings were to be an example to the whole world (the quran makes more referencez to musa and the children of israel than any other prophet or nation),
And yes; he IS still alive and shall fulfil the universal law to the whole planet until submission is to Almighty God, not to priests, pharisees, scholars or politicians.

Let us not fall for the divisive trick, he was sent to israel alone, and israel was an example (shotcomings and progress) to the nations after them, the caliphate was transferred, and he again comes to bring it to the whole planet by God's mercy.
His main task was and shall be to give tidings and to settle differences concerning those things which people dispute.
And he judges by the law of God which he receives, not brings.

It always was and is ISLAM - SUBMISSION TO THE WILL OF GOD.

Sir,
my concern is not whether God is on our side;
My greatest concern is to be on God's side,
for God is always right.
Abraham Lincoln

(my post is probably haphazard, typing on a phone so can see a few lines only - apologies)
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