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faithandpeace
12-05-2013, 05:23 AM
Assalamu alaikum.

We now know that some of the trolls and troublemakers in Muslim forums are here to disrupt the ummah on the U.S. government's tab. Read for yourself. They of course say that this is all to prevent "terrorism" or "extremism." Islam as any Muslim should know is opposed to terrorism. Yet the kuffar will always consider the message of Islam to be "extremism" and Shaytan will never cease his war on Islam until we give up Islam completely. Link below:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/12/05...om=global.home

Isn't it amazing that the superpower of the world has fallen to the level of having to use Facebook and Twitter to try to stop Islam?
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Pygoscelis
12-05-2013, 08:52 PM
That would be pointless, silly, and sure to backfire.

Good thing the link you posted doesn't say what you claim it does. Did you actually read it?

The article makes no mention of them trying to make people leave Islam. They are making efforts to talk people out of becoming terrorists, and as you said, Islam opposes terrorism.
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سيف الله
12-05-2013, 09:58 PM
Salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by faithandpeace
Assalamu alaikum.

We now know that some of the trolls and troublemakers in Muslim forums are here to disrupt the ummah on the U.S. government's tab. Read for yourself. They of course say that this is all to prevent "terrorism" or "extremism." Islam as any Muslim should know is opposed to terrorism. Yet the kuffar will always consider the message of Islam to be "extremism" and Shaytan will never cease his war on Islam until we give up Islam completely. Link below:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/12/05...om=global.home

Isn't it amazing that the superpower of the world has fallen to the level of having to use Facebook and Twitter to try to stop Islam?
Thanks for the article, in the UK how governing classes elites etc are trying to fund, create so called 'Moderate, Modernists' Muslims, for examples the frauds at the Quilliam Foundation. Its good to be aware of the games that are being played.

Just look at the banner, it mentions how Assad and Alqaida are destroying Syria, ok. It rather conveniently forgets to mention how the USA (among many other countries) also sponsored the destruction of Syria.

Its quite amusing how these people still cant answer George Bush's question (I'm paraphrasing) 'Why do they hate us, when were so good?' Its not a new question (Eisenhower asked this same question 60+ years ago)

Privately they understand the answer very well.

'We are the problem'.

Until they understand and deal with this statement, there wont be any change in the foreseeable future.
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faithandpeace
12-06-2013, 02:43 AM
They use words such as "terrorism" and "extremism" very selectively and strategically. Normally you would call violent acts either acts of war or homicides and then label them either just or unjust. Yet the secular and western governments and medias frequently use the word "terrorism." The word "terror" refers to the human emotion of fear. You do not criminalize feelings or emotions as that would be silly. Such a word could apply to anything. The WTC collapsing on 9/11/01 certainly terrified the majority of people most especially those who were in close proximity to the building as it fell. Yet a child jumping out from behind a bush on Halloween saying "boo" to another child in order to make him scream would then also be a "terrorist" because the kid helped to cause another kid become fearful. It is a ridiculous terminology that I opposed from the very beginning of the aftermath of 9/11/01.

Here are some examples of its selective use or lack of use. I do not recall for instance the Tucson Safeway shootings in 2011 or the Newtown Sandy Hook shootings of 2012 being labeled "terrorism" yet a lot of people died. They were referred to primarily as senseless and unjust homicides and the perpetrators were assumed to be mentally ill. Yet the Boston marathon bombing which resulted in far less lives lost was immediately labeled as terrorism and turned into a federal case. Violent crime (and even property crime) typically induces a sense of fear so in that sense all crimes would be considered "terrorism." Yet, the media selectively uses the term "terrorism" when the violent crime involves Muslims. Media then typically airs footage of the planes hitting the WTC towers followed by a quick picture of Osama Bin Laden. Even many non-Muslim Americans saw through the propaganda a long time ago.

Apparently not enough people are buying the terrorism label anymore so they have now used the term "extremism." Yet the government and media decide the parameters of what is to be deemed normalcy and what is to be deemed extremism. At the end of the day, if the violence is perpetrated by the government or by other governments or individuals yet it is in line with the government's goals, then they don't call it "terrorism" but call it "policy." If civilians are killed (even if they are intentionally targeted) they call it "collateral damage." Yet if the violence is against the government or against the interests of the government, then they call it "terrorism" whether or not the targets are military or civilian. They will even label conventional warfare as "terrorism." Yet they have not labeled Sisi and the military coup as "terrorism." They have not labeled the firebombing or nuking of Japan nor the chemical attacks of Vietnam as "terrorism" and they mostly haven't referred to Assad as a terrorist until the chemical weapons were used and even then they refer to the Islamic resistance in Syria as terrorism more often than they refer to Assad's brutality as terrorism. Many of us can see through this nonsense.

When it comes to "extremism" the fact is that non-believers do not get to dictate the religion of Islam to Muslims. Islam will always be seen as extremist to the kaffirs because our system of peace and justice, law and order, business ethics, character, etiquette, spiritual and religious practices are significantly different from a Judeo-Christian secular capitalist way of life. Islam itself is a religion of moderation but compared to their system will be seen as on the fringes of their own bell curve of acceptable standards. They pride themselves on "accepting diversity" yet when tested on their words it turns out they cannot handle the diversity of another group of people (Muslims) having an entirely different way of life than them. They want only the type of diversity that fits within the context of their system.

If the governments (US and UK as the UK also has a similar program going on now) want to spend money on this bogus "counter-terrorism" tactic then that is up to them. In reality, it reveals just how much these superpowers are mere "paper tigers." The nation that feeds its citizens through the media on a daily basis of how it is the most powerful country in the world is yet terrified of a few men with rifles hanging out in caves in the mountains of Afghanistan. Now this same superpower is afraid of what Muslims are talking about on Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube. The concealers of truth are naturally afraid of the truth. Liars must always try to cover their previous lies, propaganda, and half-truths. They fear Islam and Muslims because they know their way of life and systems are on the decline, they know that justice is on our side, and they know that our religion is the truth. They just don't want to admit it. Allah (swt) knows best.
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faithandpeace
12-06-2013, 03:45 AM
Obviously this effort is to deter people (mainly brothers) from going to Syria and other conflict zones where Muslims are involved. Yet just as I referenced in another thread, brothers such as Abdul Basit Javed Sheikh who simply wanted to go to Al-Sham to help the oppressed and establish Islam in the land are arrested by FBI and labeled "terrorists." Subhanallah.
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Pygoscelis
12-06-2013, 03:57 PM
I agree that "terrorism" isn't a helpful label, and it really should be tackled as a police issue, problem of course being when states such as Iran or the USA support it. I also agree that Bush-style "diplomacy"/aggression/interference is a big part of the problem. Ron Paul was a bit of a nut, but head this part right. A lot of it is blowback.

But I won't stick my fingers in my ears and glue my eyes shut and pretend that there is no problem in the world with violent horrific people doing what they do in the name of Islam. And I don't think it a bad thing to discourage others from becoming like them. I would prefer to discourage people turning into these radicals who strap bombs to their chests, blow up buildings, or chop off heads. It is much preferable than claiming to go to war with these people while invading and destroying innocent and peaceful people.

And yes, it is a non-muslims concern to try to encourage a peaceful and live and let live version of Islam, just as it is a muslim's concern to discourage islamophobia and hatred/violence towards muslims in the west.
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greenhill
12-06-2013, 04:45 PM
Agent Provocateurs are everywhere.

They will find other words to describe and discredit islam. Right now they have those as listed above, but 'fundamentalist' has long ago been struck out.

There will be people who would strap bombs on their chest, I wish they would not like how I wish there would not be any muggers down the street but hey, there are crazy people. :hmm:


Peace :shade:
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Independent
12-06-2013, 04:50 PM
Contrary to what is being suggested here, I think that the word 'terrorism' is a useful word, is easily and accurately understood by most people without explanation, and (if it did not exist) would leave a gap that another word would have to fill:

format_quote Originally Posted by faithandpeace
They use words such as "terrorism" and "extremism" very selectively and strategically
It's simply not true that only Muslims get described as terrorists. In Europe, groups like Baader Meinhoff, ETA, the IRA and the UVF were all labelled this way. Why would they change the terminology now just for Muslim groups? It would be a really odd thing to do.

I can't think of a major European group that isn't currently being described as terrorist, but which ought to be. (I can't speak for the US). Their supporters may say they are 'freedom fighters' not terrorists, but everyone else clearly understands that they are terrorist by their tactics, whatever the cause. You can still be a terrorist even if your cause is right.

format_quote Originally Posted by faithandpeace
Here are some examples of its selective use or lack of use. I do not recall for instance the Tucson Safeway shootings in 2011 or the Newtown Sandy Hook shootings of 2012 being labeled "terrorism" yet a lot of people died.
Isolated acts by individuals (Sandy Hook) or even one-off groups (Waco) have no ongoing political agenda. They are acts of a disturbed individual. They are horrifying, but they finish with the death or capture of the individual concerned.

format_quote Originally Posted by faithandpeace
The word "terror" refers to the human emotion of fear. You do not criminalize feelings or emotions as that would be silly. Such a word could apply to anything.
I think the description 'terrorism' has been used in a largely consistent way. We naturally call it terrorism if:

a) They target mainly civilians, or government officials, or soldiers in a non combat role
b) They don't wear uniforms
c) They don't operate on battlefields but in surprise attacks in civilian areas
d) They have declared political objectives
e) They are not isolated individuals, they are groups who make attacks over an extended period of time.

format_quote Originally Posted by faithandpeace
It is a ridiculous terminology that I opposed from the very beginning of the aftermath of 9/11/01.
Terrorism as a concept truly arrived in the US with 9/11, but it had been present in Europe long before. It is a useful word that describes a distinct form of attack/warfare in a way that is easily understood by most people. If you don't use that word, you'll simply need to invent another. Don't get stuck on the literalism of 'terrorism' meaning anything that invokes terror. That would apply to all war and even other things like horror films. If you don't call it terrorism, you'll just have to invent another word that does the same job.
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Pygoscelis
12-06-2013, 06:53 PM
Then how do you define terrorism? Would you say the USA's "Shock and Awe" attacks were terrorism? They were deliberately designed to strike fear into the enemy and demoralize them.
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M.I.A.
12-06-2013, 07:11 PM
[QUOTE=faithandpeace;1601830]Assalamu alaikum.

We now know that some of the trolls and troublemakers in Muslim forums are here to disrupt the ummah on the U.S. government's tab. Read for yourself. They of course say that this is all to prevent "terrorism" or "extremism." Islam as any Muslim should know is opposed to terrorism. Yet the kuffar will always consider the message of Islam to be "extremism" and Shaytan will never cease his war on Islam until we give up Islam completely. Link below:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/12/05...om=global.home

you put too much on the shaytaan.


as a muslim you believe in allah swt. know the rules and have self control rather than being a leader heading for a big slap.

the fbi is powerless if you are innocent.

but put yourself within slapping distance and millions will hear you cry.


...and they will like it.


and its not cowardly to find other ways rather than a head on collision.

and i wouldnt condone it anyway,


because thats the difference between extremism and moderation.

america would allow you to live as a muslim within its boarders.

but you given the same power would probably not..

well its only logical to safeguard your own religion.


but that just goes to show how inept we all are.
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Independent
12-06-2013, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Then how do you define terrorism? Would you say the USA's "Shock and Awe" attacks were terrorism? They were deliberately designed to strike fear into the enemy and demoralize them
My definition would be based on the a) to e) listed above. As far as I can see, that is the way that the word is actually being applied by the media.

No, I would not describe the Shock and Awe campaign as an act of terrorism because it breaks most of those 5 rules. In fact, Shock and Awe is just aterm describing a military tactic, like blitzkrieg.

I wouldn't describe any attack by a uniformed state army as terrorism, although it may of course be 'terrifying' and more immoral than any actual act of terrorism.
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جوري
12-06-2013, 07:44 PM
lol.. by this guy's standard, 'terrorism' is only so defined when it is a few individuals carrying out the act with primitive equipments, not a 'unified army' with drones and state of the art equipment causing the most number of civilian deaths and when there's a wonderful PR campaign carried out by people who speak English fluently and with great flourish...
Got to love linear thoughts & conformity to the 'standard' morals. :D
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Jedi_Mindset
12-06-2013, 08:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
My definition would be based on the a) to e) listed above. As far as I can see, that is the way that the word is actually being applied by the media.

No, I would not describe the Shock and Awe campaign as an act of terrorism because it breaks most of those 5 rules. In fact, Shock and Awe is just aterm describing a military tactic, like blitzkrieg.

I wouldn't describe any attack by a uniformed state army as terrorism, although it may of course be 'terrifying' and more immoral than any actual act of terrorism.
What you are referring to is actually terrorism, its called 'state terrorism'. Terrorism by the state this also means attacking and killing the population of another country to make them submit to your state.
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M.I.A.
12-06-2013, 08:13 PM
terrorism is the realisation of loss.

any number of things can contribute.

look at the situation with pakistan and india.

pakistan, a country established as a muslim nation.


effectively dividing the population and to this day, debilitating its combined external presence.


most wars are won and lost long before any battlefield is seen.


keep em angry folk's.


..tomorrow might be better.




talking of defining terrorism.. although i have only skim reddit

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/n...ng-secrecy-law
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Independent
12-06-2013, 08:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
What you are referring to is actually terrorism, its called 'state terrorism'. Terrorism by the state this also means attacking and killing the population of another country to make them submit to your state.
This is drifting into a somewhat different issue. I agree that 'state terrorism' is a term gaining currency and is a good description of some acts (eg Guernica). But the term is much harder to agree on because it's hard not to end up defining any warfare as 'terroristic'. In which case it becomes useless.

However, faithandpeace was raising a different issue which was: is the media only calling Muslim terrorists by that name, but not other groups? I'm arguing that in fact the term is being used reasonably consistently, as described above.
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dcalling
12-12-2013, 05:02 AM
Terrorism should be easy to define. Any one who intentionally use armed force In cruel act against unarmed civilians are committing terrorism. It has to be intentional, has to be cruel, and has to be on uneven grounds (one got gun, the other don't).

So if US air force accidentally dropped a bomb in the wrong area, it is not terrorism, if a Syrian rebel suicide bomber blew up himself with some soliders, that is war, not terrorism. The recent al-shebab attack on the mall in some African country, that is terrorism, and I am sure most of us will condemn it.
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جوري
12-12-2013, 08:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dcalling
It has to be intentional, has to be cruel, and has to be on uneven grounds
And you surmise this intent based on what? the fact that politicians are so honest? Please what the U.S is doing everywhere is the very definition of terrorism!
The U.S can't to this day give one valid reason as to why it is in any of the places that it is in occupying.. if you believe in the whole 'freedom fries and democracy' shbeal then I pity you indeed :)

best,
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Prayer4life
12-13-2013, 01:30 AM
In ye olde days, the Brits would set out to conquer far away lands to steal resources and divide the populous in order to maintain and expand their empire and better their own peoples and lifestyles..

In today's world, maintaining the wealthy western lifestyles and worlds power and stealing resources to keep flowing in western countries is becoming harder and harder and also keeping popular support amongst their own people to do this.

So... along comes the favorite bogey men… muslims and terms such as ‘terrorist’, ‘islamic fundamentalists and extremists’ etc… to brainwash the masses into such paranoia and fear so as to think that there is a real and imminent and ongoing threat/danger to western civilisations which needs to be defeated asap and continually.. or else all is lost. This type of fear mongering creates the perfect smokes screen and support from society for the western powers to continue to rape other nations of their valuable resources whether this be oil (most things are made from oil), gold (never loses value like money), diamonds (every girl likes diamonds), gas (heating and cooking), minerals (medicines) etc.. and also expand their fascist, judeo christian ideas with relative ease.

With the invention of technologies such as the internet, people from all over the globe are able to connect, share ideas, and also relay concerns, information and expose lies with ease, hence now why the western powers are panicking that people are waking up to the truth and their lies are being exposed and people have access to a wide range of sources rather than just pro government lies and media brain washing. Now the west are joining forces to limit web access and also recruit people to police the web using spies, trolls, spam to counter anti western or anti government news or views, and to instead brand them as ‘conspiracies’ or ‘propaganda’ or ‘lies’ and to help spread disinformation. All sites such as Yahoo, Facebook, forums etc.. are being heavily monitored and not just the military are trolling these forums but security services, the police, IT specialists and certain IT/Uni students, this is what the west now call ‘cyber warfare’ and hence the new cyber summit meetings by world governments.

The west are also preparing for civil unrest within their countries in case the people riot or turn against the state, hence the slow but steady militarisation of countries like the US and UK etc… in educational institutions such as schools so newer generations are less likely to cause future problems. The state police are also starting to adopt more military practices.
Online, more and more sites are asking for phone verification, private documentation such as passports, driving licenses etc.. to ‘verify’ accounts and as well as keeping records of site visits and posts etc. Offline.. spies, honey traps (women used to befriend men and vice versa, or ‘convert’ pretendly to befriend muslims especially men), doctors, teachers, shop workers, members of the public etc.. have all been told to report suspicious people or activity to the terrorism hotlines. Arms industries have even funded the UK census recently to get info on mainly muslims living in the west.

Muslim are being befriended by agents and then encouraged and enraged to commit acts of violence or crimes only to be framed as ‘patsies’ then brought before the courts and media and having their whole lives destroyed and that of their families and criminal records which destroy any hopes of getting a decent job or life in future.
Extremist fascist groups such as the BNP EDL and individuals like Anjem Choudry & Tommy Robinson etc.. are funded and secretly encouraged by governments to keep spreading their hate unaccountably and thus keeping people divided and to scare muslims into staying silent and submissive. Atrocities such as the beheading of a soldier are created to keep non muslim hatred against muslims alive and burning. The more extreme and horrific the crime, the more hatred is gained from non muslim citizens and the people in power continue to rule and rob as they please as their people are too busy hating those that are different and are too blind to see what is really happening under their noses by their robber bankers, elites, governmens and big business!

Thinking out loud again... :hmm:
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AsheSkyler
12-13-2013, 06:13 AM
In ye olde days, the Brits would set out to conquer far away lands to steal resources and divide the populous in order to maintain and expand their empire and better their own peoples and lifestyles.
Brits, Spaniards, Portuguese, Romans, Italians, French, Vikings, Aztecs, Mongols, Assyrians, goodness-knows-how-many-others throughout history... A very annoying and recurring part of human nature. Several thousand years ago, it at least made sense. Kill or be killed, food was scarce. But now... I should like to think we live in a possibly enlightened age where we have enough sense to settle things maturely and honestly, and trade items for what we each want. And then I turn on the news to see a caveman and his club off to steal some treasure.

Maybe if we keep trying to encourage people to get along, they may do it someday. Let all us normal people go to work, enjoy our dinners with family, and just enjoy life. Until then, I am going to wish for a giant arena to lock all the warmongers into so they can settle their differences face-to-face without getting so many innocent civilians killed. I really think politicians would be less trigger-happy if it was their own lives at stake instead of nameless, faceless cannon fodder.
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greenhill
12-13-2013, 06:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AsheSkyler
I really think politicians would be less trigger-happy if it was their own lives at stake instead of nameless, faceless cannon fodder.
Gone are the days when it was the leaders that lead the nation in war. Now, the army goes one way and the leaders hide in their bunkers!
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AsheSkyler
12-13-2013, 07:03 AM
Gone are the days when it was the leaders that lead the nation in war. Now, the army goes one way and the leaders hide in their bunkers!
Let's lead the armies in the opposite direction in a mass scavenger hunt to find the leaders!

...Or not. The last two times that happened that I can remember, they were brutally killed without a proper trial. Maybe I should have gone with my first career choice and been a farming hermit out in the middle of nowhere away from all potential gunshots and bomb blasts.
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observer
12-13-2013, 10:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Prayer4life
Extremist fascist groups such as the BNP EDL and individuals like Anjem Choudry & Tommy Robinson etc.. are funded and secretly encouraged by governments to keep spreading their hate unaccountably and thus keeping people divided and to scare muslims into staying silent and submissive. Atrocities such as the beheading of a soldier are created to keep non muslim hatred against muslims alive and burning.

Have you got any evidence of this, or is it all just hearsay and conspiracy theory? Whenever a muslim commits a crime, a lot of people on this forum immediately call false-flag / setup; is it impossible to believe that a muslim could commit a crime? The guy who killed the solider is on trial now, what he says is public record so you can easily hear his own reasons for his actions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25301907

The west has done plenty wrong throughout history - unfortunately so has every other powerful country / empire that has ever existed. To blame all the world's woes on the west is lazy and simply not true.

I recognise that saying this will lead many on here to say I am blind to the truth / brain washed by mass-media / just an idiot, but just stating conspiracy theories as fact with no proof is not going to "open" anyone's eyes to anything other than the paranoia of certain individuals.
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Independent
12-13-2013, 11:33 AM
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Prayer4Life. One or two changes and I think you have it:

'So... along comes the favorite bogey men… the good old USA and terms such as ‘genocide’, ‘new world order' and 'black flag ops’ etc… to brainwash the masses into such paranoia and fear so as to think that there is a real and imminent and ongoing threat/danger to Islamic civilisation which needs to be defeated asap and continually.. or else all is lost.'
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Prayer4life
12-13-2013, 11:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AsheSkyler
Brits, Spaniards, Portuguese, Romans, Italians, French, Vikings, Aztecs, Mongols, Assyrians, goodness-knows-how-many-others throughout history... A very annoying and recurring part of human nature. Several thousand years ago, it at least made sense. Kill or be killed, food was scarce. But now... I should like to think we live in a possibly enlightened age where we have enough sense to settle things maturely and honestly, and trade items for what we each want. And then I turn on the news to see a caveman and his club off to steal some treasure.

Maybe if we keep trying to encourage people to get along, they may do it someday. Let all us normal people go to work, enjoy our dinners with family, and just enjoy life. Until then, I am going to wish for a giant arena to lock all the warmongers into so they can settle their differences face-to-face without getting so many innocent civilians killed. I really think politicians would be less trigger-happy if it was their own lives at stake instead of nameless, faceless cannon fodder.
The west obviously hasn't matured despite claiming to be civilised nations, and continues to kill and demonise others to maintain and sustain their power and standards of living in the world, all at the expense of most of the world's populations blood and at the same time is continuously demonising specific groups to justify their evil. Also we are referring to modern times here, and there is no doubt that western nations who are non islamic are the biggest contributors of terrorism and bloodshed in the world.
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Prayer4life
12-13-2013, 12:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
Have you got any evidence of this, or is it all just hearsay and conspiracy theory? Whenever a muslim commits a crime, a lot of people on this forum immediately call false-flag / setup; is it impossible to believe that a muslim could commit a crime? The guy who killed the solider is on trial now, what he says is public record so you can easily hear his own reasons for his actions.



The west has done plenty wrong throughout history - unfortunately so has every other powerful country / empire that has ever existed. To blame all the world's woes on the west is lazy and simply not true.

I recognise that saying this will lead many on here to say I am blind to the truth / brain washed by mass-media / just an idiot, but just stating conspiracy theories as fact with no proof is not going to "open" anyone's eyes to anything other than the paranoia of certain individuals.
You're a perfect example of those who try and discredit alternative views over the internet and no doubt in public. The problem with the west is that it continues to do evil in order to stay on top and at any cost, and that man who killed the soldier, it is well known that he was a product of harassment and brainwashing by western security services and also witnessed atrocities abroad committed by the west. You're entitled to believe what you want, but you can't cover up the truth. What you call conspiracies and hearsay is a well known fact amongst many muslims and non muslims alike, some of whom are also in government jobs. And the BBC isn't even a reliable source and is well known for its anti islamic views and biased reporting.
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Independent
12-13-2013, 01:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Prayer4life
it is well known that he was a product of harassment and brainwashing by western security services and also witnessed atrocities abroad committed by the west.
Michael Adeobolajo is articulate as well as brutal. He has been kind enough to tell us all about why he killed Lee Rigby, both in his own snuff video and subsequently in court.

His reasons - his views - are an exact match with your own views as posted above.

So you're saying they brainwashed him to see through their own media brainwashing.

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...
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observer
12-13-2013, 02:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Prayer4life
You're a perfect example of those who try and discredit alternative views over the internet and no doubt in public. The problem with the west is that it continues to do evil in order to stay on top and at any cost, and that man who killed the soldier, it is well known that he was a product of harassment and brainwashing by western security services and also witnessed atrocities abroad committed by the west. You're entitled to believe what you want, but you can't cover up the truth. What you call conspiracies and hearsay is a well known fact amongst many muslims and non muslims alike, some of whom are also in government jobs. And the BBC isn't even a reliable source and is well known for its anti islamic views and biased reporting.

I'm willing to believe almost anything about any government, but I'd quite like to see some proof. If it is such a well known fact - where is the proof?

A lot of muslims I've met "know" that the moon landing never happened (I have no idea why) - that doesn't make it true.

Also, do you have any examples of BBC anti-muslim bias? It seems to me to be one of the fairer broadcasters (for example, they publish a lot of positive stories about muslims and islam). Which news source would you recommend?
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Prayer4life
12-13-2013, 02:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Michael Adeobolajo is articulate as well as brutal. He has been kind enough to tell us all about why he killed Lee Rigby, both in his own snuff video and subsequently in court.

His reasons - his views - are an exact match with your own views as posted above.

So you're saying they brainwashed him to see through their own media brainwashing.

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...
The media like i mentioned before is using this crime to spread more islamophobia and pro military support amongst the nation. Youre twisting my words, but then youre here for only that reason like some others. If it were not for his friends and others coming forward and revealing this man's harassment by british and other western intelligence agencies then the media would have come up with more lies to breed even more hatred against muslims.
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Prayer4life
12-13-2013, 02:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
I'm willing to believe almost anything about any government, but I'd quite like to see some proof. If it is such a well known fact - where is the proof?

A lot of muslims I've met "know" that the moon landing never happened (I have no idea why) - that doesn't make it true.

Also, do you have any examples of BBC anti-muslim bias? It seems to me to be one of the fairer broadcasters (for example, they publish a lot of positive stories about muslims and islam). Which news source would you recommend?

There's plenty of examples of BBC bias and islamophobia, you just need to be open minded enough to see it. You ask for proof, its everywhere, yet you're still hell bent on accepting only biased western sources and media reporting. I'm not here to educate you, that's the job of each and every human being on this earth to do for themselves. The truth is you are not here to learn but to spread lies, disinformation and mock the credibility of opposing views and sources. Good luck, but you're trying to win a losing game because even your own people are waking up to the lies that they are being fed daily, both civilian and military.
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Independent
12-13-2013, 03:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Prayer4life
The media like i mentioned before is using this crime to spread more islamophobia
But this man wasn't suffering from Islamaphobia. He was suffering from western phobia - like yourself. So in what way was he brainwashed?

format_quote Originally Posted by Prayer4life
pro military support amongst the natio
But UK defence spending has been falling for decades since WW2 and is continuing to fall today. So why is the opposite happening from what you say? Not much of a cunning plan, was it?

format_quote Originally Posted by Prayer4life
If it were not for his friends and others coming forward and revealing this man's harassment by british and other western intelligence agencies
This is wholly unproven and the man himself doesn't blame anyone for the views he holds - which after all are the same as yours!

format_quote Originally Posted by Prayer4life
Youre twisting my words, but then youre here for only that reason like some others
You have filled your head with propaganda. Snap out of it and stop accusing countless people you've never met of the worst possible crimes.
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AsheSkyler
12-15-2013, 07:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Prayer4life
The west obviously hasn't matured despite claiming to be civilised nations, and continues to kill and demonise others to maintain and sustain their power and standards of living in the world, all at the expense of most of the world's populations blood and at the same time is continuously demonising specific groups to justify their evil. Also we are referring to modern times here, and there is no doubt that western nations who are non islamic are the biggest contributors of terrorism and bloodshed in the world.
Mmm, I wouldn't say it's strictly a western thing. Any unified group is prone to an embarrassing bout of violence. India and China got into a good squabble fifty years ago, and they are home to possibly the two most peaceful religions I can think of, and I'm sure China didn't originally develop their hand-to-hand combat to the extent they have if they hadn't intended to use it for more than defense. If it's any comfort, the vast majority of those in the USA want our troops home (the last poll I heard of had us around 60%-75% wanting the troops out of the middle east), and many are quite sick of our politicians pretending to be the world police by instead acting like a schoolyard bully. We could use a good Musa to bop the president on the head with a stick and say "Let my people go home, by golly. Stop this nonsense!". (I'm aware he never struck the Pharoah with his staff.)
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سيف الله
12-16-2013, 06:50 PM
Salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Contrary to what is being suggested here, I think that the word 'terrorism' is a useful word, is easily and accurately understood by most people without explanation, and (if it did not exist) would leave a gap that another word would have to fill:
Shallow and uninteresting as ever Independent. To get past the fluff and to sum up, only the ‘bad’ guys do terrorism, not the ’good’ guys. By definition the ‘good guys’ can commit no such act.

For a more penetrating insight into uses and abuses of the terms ‘terror’ and ‘Terrorism’.

'The Washington Connection and Third World Fascism' By Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky (1979)

The Semantics of Terror

Among the many symbols used to frighten and manipulate the populace of the democratic states, few have been more important than 'terror' and terrorism'. These terms have generally been confined to the use of violence by individuals and marginalised groups. Official violence, which is far more extensive in both scale and destructiveness, is placed in a different category altogether. This usage has nothing to do with justice, causal sequence, or numbers abused. Whatever the actual sequence of cause and effect, official violence is described as responsive or provoked ('retaliation,' 'protective reaction,' etc.), not as the active and initiating source of abuse. Similarly, the massive long-term violence inherent in the oppressive social structures that US power has supported or imposed is typically disregarded. The numbers tormented and killed by official violence - wholesale as opposed to retail terror - during recent decades have exceeded those of unofficial terrorists by a factor running into the thousands. But this is not 'terror,' although one terminological exception may be noted: while Argentinian 'security forces' only retaliate and engage in 'police action,' violence carried out by unfriendly states (Cuba, Cambodia) may be designated 'terroristic'. The question of proper usage is settled not merely by the official or unofficial status of the perpetrators of violence but also by their political affiliations.

These terminological devices serve important important functions. They help to justify the far more extensive violence of (friendly) state authorities by interpreting them as 'reactive,' and they implicitly sanction the suppression of information on the methods and scale of official violence by removing it from the category of 'terrorism'. Thus in Latin America, 'Left-wing terrorism is quiescent after a decade and a half of turmoil,' the New York Times explains in a summary article on the state of terrorism; it does not discuss any other kind of violence in Latin America - CIA, Argentinian and Brazilian death squads, DINA etc. Their actions are excluded by definition, nothing is said about the nature and causes of the 'turmoil' Thus the language is well-designed for apologetics for wholesale terror.

This language is also useful in its connotation of irrational evil, which can be exterminated with no questions asked. The criminally insane have no just grievances that we need to trouble to comprehend. On the current scene, for example, the New York Times refers to the 'cold blooded and mysterious' Carlos; the South African government, on the other hand, whose single raid on the Nambian refugee camp of Kassinga on May 4, 1978 wiped out a far larger total (more than 600) than the combined victims of Carlos, the Baader-Meinhof gang, and the Italian Red Brigades, is not referred to in such invidious terms. Retail terror is 'the crime of our times' in the current picture of reality conveyed by the media; and friendly governments are portrayed as the reassuring protectors of the public, striving courageously to cope with 'terror'.

The Limited concept of 'terror' also serves as a lightning rod to distract attention from substantive issues, and helps to create a sensibility and frame of mind that allows greater freedom of action by the state. During the Vietnam War, students were the terrorists, and the government and mass media devoted great attention (and much outrage) to their frightful depredations (one person killed, many windows broken). The device was used effectively to discredit the antiwar movement as violence prone and destructive - the motive, of course, for the infiltration of the movement by government provocateurs - and it helped to divert attention from the official violence that was far more extensive even on the home front, not to speak of Vietnam, The Dominican Republic, and elsewhere. The ploy was amazingly successful in light of the facts, now documented beyond serious question, even though it did not succeed in destroying the anti-war movement. The terrorism of the Vietnamese enemy was also used effectively in mobilising public opinion, again a tremendous testimonial to the power of brainwashing under freedom, given the real facts of the matter.
There is a purpose about talking about this. Of course it won’t stop the West (in particular the USA) bringing misery and death to the world in the name of freedom and democracy but by undermining the propaganda and their propagandists ability to mobilise the population, which actually contributes to world peace. It also helps us understand the reasons why western powers do what they do.


format_quote Originally Posted by observer

Also, do you have any examples of BBC anti-muslim bias? It seems to me to be one of the fairer broadcasters (for example, they publish a lot of positive stories about muslims and islam). Which news source would you recommend?
The Misrepresentation of Muslims is nothing new in Western Media, goes back decades.



For a more British focused.



BBC is more milder but still feeds of this culture. In fact over recent years as it has become more explicit in promoting its secular liberal ideology its become more hostile to aspects of Islam it disapproves of. Its not just Islam plenty of other faiths get the same treatment.
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جوري
12-16-2013, 07:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Junon
Shallow and uninteresting as ever Independent

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M.I.A.
12-22-2013, 02:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Junon
Shallow and uninteresting as ever Independent. To get past the fluff and to sum up, only the ‘bad’ guys do terrorism, not the ’good’ guys. By definition the ‘good guys’ can commit no such act.

For a more penetrating insight into uses and abuses of the terms ‘terror’ and ‘Terrorism’.

good and bad are not so easy to define.

nobody wants to lose.

which is funny because "god"


so remember how you act if you ever win...

and maybe figure out how you would treat the enemy if you had the upper hand.



seriously, its an insane situation... but its a losers perspective.

anyway post unrelated.
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Abz2000
12-22-2013, 05:13 AM
Independent ----, you contradict yourself in almost every single post you make, just bending ur side to justify killing our brothers and sisters, how do you live with yourself knowing you're supporting the murders of millions of innocent men, women and children who just want to live their lives without amrrikkka and Britain trying to "civilize" (domesticate) them via puppets in their own countries.
I moved away from the uk to get away from the kufr and your humbrrside merseyside police have been trainingbanladesh death squads in "counter terror" and "interrogation" tactics.
Google British police train r.a.b wikileaks. No wonder they fear people like assange and Snowden.
The fruits we see of this coutertfrrorsm is tanks on thr streets, activists having their homes broken into and dragged to their roof, shot in cold blood and thrown off the roof onto the concrete floor, then dragged to the van and thrown on the morgue doorsteps - by r.a.b,

I have heard so much about him and his family, a truly noble and ideal family both professionally and Islamically. He was 58 years old. A successful medical doctor and a widely respected figure in the district. Whole life dedicated to the Islamic movement. Proprietor of a successful and popular clinic and many other businesses. He was involved with numerous professional activities and social welfare charities. Was widely popular for his friendliness, hospitality, jovial manner and kindness. With a happy and respected family of well educated children. His wife is a senior leader of Jamat Islami and one of the founding members of the Chatri Sangstha.In an act of unprecedented barbarism, the RAB has killed a senior district leader of Jamat Islami in Laximpur last night. In the town of Laximpur near Temuhoni area, miscreants have shot dead the district vice president of Jamaat Islami named Dr Fayez Ahmed, in his own house. According to his family, a group of people dressed as RAB soldiers killed him after arresting him. This happened on Friday night. Dr Fayez’s wife Mrs Marzia Fayez has said that at about 12 midnight a group of RAB soldiers smashed the gate of the building and entered the house. They searched all the rooms. At one point they arrested my husband and started beating him, dragged him to the roof, where they shot him on his leg and then thrown him from the rooftop down to the ground.

The district secretary of Jamat Islami in a statement has demanded for a judicial enquiry about the circumstance of this brutal murder and as to whether the miscreants were really from the RAB. The party has called for a district wide strike to protest the killing. The medical officer at the city hospital has said that at about 1:40 am in the night some unidentified people left a dead body at the hospital morgue. The body showed signs of serious injuries in the head and in the legs. The body had been kept at the morgue for post mortem. After that, a funeral prayer was held at the local mosque and he was buried nearby.
---
Go on YouTube and google r.a.b murders first though, then you'll probably(or not) find I easier to kick the chair.


http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12057400

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PayO-w6...%3DPayO-w6jP0g
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Abz2000
12-22-2013, 05:19 AM
Rambo Burma and Rambo Afghanistan should paint a clear picture of what's actually happening.
Ironically the latter was dedicated to the afghan mujahideen.

They try to make Muslims and non Muslims shy away from the term jihad now when all it means is "struggle"
But of course a rapist won't like the idea of a victim struggling.
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Independent
12-22-2013, 03:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
Google British police train r.a.b wikileaks
You give 2 links. The audio isn't working on the youtube link. As for the BBC article...why is that people like yourself who bang on about media are so incapable of reading it properly? You need to look past the dramatic headline which is designed to get you in. You need to look at the inverted commas around 'death squad' and realise this means the phrase is being used conditionally. When we come to the wikileaks cable itself, this is what we find: "The US and UK representatives reviewed our ongoing training to make the RAB a more transparent, accountable and human-rights compliant paramilitary force." So....they are training them to follow the Geneva convention. It's not exactly a shock-horror revelation.

Remember, this is a secret cable. This is where we're supposed to find all the bad stuff. Is that the best you can do? Pathetic.

As for wikileaks in general - the most interesting thing is not what they do say, but what they don't. It is truly stunning how little they reveal that's very important. The most embarrassing stuff is not about enemy states, but spying on their friends. Personally I assume that everyone spies on everyone, but getting caught is not so great.

However, what's missing from wikileaks is massively revealing. The great anti Muslim conspiracy isn't there. Nor is the great Zionist conspiracy. Or the great anyone conspiracy. They even spied on the Israeli prime minister, who is one of the guys supposed to be controlling them! Everything about these cables contradicts the grand conspiracy theories. If you believe in wikileaks, you should abandon the anti Muslim conspiracy theory. If you don't, then why bother quoting them? All you do is look around for echoes of your prejudice.

---
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RedGuard
12-22-2013, 10:01 PM
OF and I forget about one thing:

Some people use to think that Michael Adebolajo was a product of Western services created to justify Islamophobia. So how do you know who is a Western puppet and who is not? How do you know if Bin Laden wasn't actually a deep cover CIA agent? Or Syrian rebels? Or Hamas?
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Abz2000
12-23-2013, 06:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
You give 2 links. The audio isn't working on the youtube link. As for the BBC article...why is that people like yourself who bang on about media are so incapable of reading it properly? You need to look past the dramatic headline which is designed to get you in. You need to look at the inverted commas around 'death squad' and realise this means the phrase is being used conditionally.
you further prove that you're a shill/troll, i posted the bbc article for the info contained therein and the fact that they admitted to having been training them,
i didn't pay heed to the construction the government or the bbc put on it - i've seen their lies before - which is why i mentioned the fruits of their sick tree.
by their actions and their fruits you shall know them.
Islam doesn't contain a billion secret documents, it's on the net!!!

that in itself is evidence of who's deceiving and has everything to hide.

i am a witness to what is happening and now at a pc so will post links.
not for your information (since your intentions are quite apparent) but for the information of readers you attempt to deceive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVVPhcw8Ee8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyHn4dbGkCg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PayO-w6jP0g

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Abz2000
12-23-2013, 07:04 AM


since they've been training them and admitted to having done so only after it was exposed, and we have only seen crimes and injustice on their part, while the british police have done nothing to prevent them from these actions, yet support their government. isn't it quite obvious what they trained them in torture and crimes? most people in bangladesh (who don't watch btv) know that r.a.b is a terrorist force dressed and armed to strike terror into the hearts of the population - and not as a humanitarian force.

there is also adequate proof that the cia trained the egyptian army in torture tactics and human rights abuses too, same in iraq and afghanistan and somalia and yemen and bush's friend karimov is no hidden case..



the fact that hasina's government was hammered in the elections after the massacre and is still trying to hold a "democratic" "election" with the main opposition parties leaders dead or in prison and out of the equation is also proof of the fact that the u.s government and british governments are supporters of global terrorism.
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RedGuard
12-23-2013, 08:18 AM
You would better read about this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_Genocide

All western crimes look pale in comparsion to this.
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Abz2000
12-23-2013, 08:38 AM
that again was a two sided genocide engineered by brittain and india in order to separate the muslims on both sides of india despite the fact that the people of sylhet had voted in the referendum to stay aligned with the islamic republic, they let them join it, then assisted in engineering a breakup and establishing a "democracy" where they ravage and kill Muslims with impunity.

they can keep their "democracy", for Islam has no part in fsalsehood.


amazing how it was ok to till police and soldiers for much lesser incidents at the time, yet they attempt to label "terrorism" resistance with banners and justify the cold blooded murders continually committed every single day here.

we don't want your lewd and despicable ways, get it, we move away from your lewdness when we are a minority and you ask us why we don't practice islam in our own countries.
yet when we move to Muslim majority countries, we find western companies trying to put up semi-lewd adverts and western governments trying to force their lewd and despicable ways onto us at the barrel of a gun.
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RedGuard
12-23-2013, 08:46 AM
Bangladesh is a Muslim majority country so what's the problem?
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sister herb
12-23-2013, 09:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by RedGuard
Hello.

I don't see how Europe oe US are anti-Muslim. Leftist politicians bend backwards in order to appease Muslims. They give Muslims more rights and constantly attack Christianity and Western culture from all sides.

[deleted comments]
We can see and read from news every day how "Jewish/Christian/Hindu/Buddhis/Atheists" murder hundreds of muslims, violate their basic human rights, steal natural resources from they countries. Steal the land and natural resources, destroy homes, make drone attacks against civilians, torture, rape etc. etc.

Here is example what kind of actions for example Jews did during last week:

Israeli forces killed a Palestinian civilian and wounded 6 others in Jenin refugee camp in the north of the West Bank.



A Palestinian civilian died of previous wounds in Bethlehem.



Israeli forces have continued to open fire at the border areas in the Gaza Strip.

3 Palestinian civilians, including a child, were wounded in the northern and southern Gaza Strip.



Israeli forces have continued to use excessive force against peaceful protesters in the West Bank.



Many civilians suffered tear gas inhalation.





Israeli forces conducted 21 incursions into Palestinian communities in the West Bank.



At least 12 Palestinians were arrested.



Israel has continued to impose a total closure on the oPt and has isolated the Gaza Strip from the outside world.

Israeli forces established dozens of checkpoints in the West Bank.

At least 3 Palestinian civilians were arrested at checkpoints in the West Bank.



Israeli navy forces have continued targeting Palestinian fishermen in the sea.

Israeli naval forces opened fire twice at Palestinian fishing boats, but no casualties were reported.



Israeli forces have continued to support settlement activities in the West Bank and Israeli settlers have continued to attack Palestinian civilians and property.

Israeli forces confiscated 10 dunums[1] of land in Qasra village near Nablus and denied farmers access to other 500-dunum lands.

Source: http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/in...009&Itemid=183
Also Jewish clerics teach every single day in the kindergartens, schools and in the army to young soldiers that non-Jews are filth, animals whose walk by two legs, that killing them is just same like slaughter an animal. They also tell to the young soldiers that killing civilians, specially children is just a good thing.

Here you can read some of comments of Jew clerics (if you don´t think that all against your own opinions is just a propaganda): https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/ar...ainst-non-jews



I leave this thread to this comment - I have better things to do than talk with someone who hasn´t learn yet how to open his eyes and see the truth what is really happens in our wonderfull world.
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Abz2000
12-23-2013, 10:23 AM
it is not a totalitarian political ideology disguised as anything other than what it is
it is the totalitarian political ideology of God who is the only true king and lawmaker - and it's out there in the open, amazing how it's the fastest growing ideology on the planet and people from all over the globe are ditching their junk in order to accept it in it's totality.
also amazing how all these "benign" politicians in "democracies" seem to pretend they know better than the people who they claim to represent and the the constitutions which they claim to uphold, and do their best to punish and stifle it via the most berberic means imaginable.

say: truth has come and falsehood has vanished, for falsehood is -by it's nature- bound to vanish.
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RedGuard
12-23-2013, 10:40 AM
Indeed, Islam is indeed growing fast but not for the reasons you think. Muslims simply breed faster than other religions. In Western World number of converts to Islam (outside of jail inmates and neo Nazis) is negligible, and most converts leave the a few years after converting, after becoming disillusioned by it. In Africa roughly 6 mln people leave Islam each year, mostly for Christianity.

By the way - the fastest growing religion is not Islam but Falun Gong - a Chinese religion started in 1992, with more than 100mln followers. There is also the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, started in 2005, having 15-20 mln followers by now.
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Abz2000
12-23-2013, 10:56 AM
you just tried to compare a comparitively insignificant group to Muslims - by percentage,
that is like me having 1 million dollars and starting a group, offering everyone that joins 10 dollars each, it grows by 5000 percent in one day ..............to...............50 and saying it's the fastest growing religion on the planet.
amusing at best.
btw, islam will begin to lose the weak under pressure and fear of kufr soon just so they can "blend in" and will only increase in those who are die hard Muslims who will accept nothing but the rule of Almighty God. so don't take my statement as continuous for the soft edges arew being chipped away as we speak.
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RedGuard
12-23-2013, 11:04 AM
Ad 1 - That's why it is so hard to define a fastest growing religion - whether it should be defined in relative vs absolute terms.

Ad 2 - Religiousness can't increase forever. After breaching a certain level of devotion an individual becomes autodestructive and gene/memes of fanaticism eliminate themselves out of the population.
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Abz2000
12-23-2013, 11:33 AM
lol it's called make or break, and we SHALL make - By God's Will
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sister herb
12-23-2013, 01:15 PM
Islam is going so popular religion because more and more people in the west have found out how peaceful it is. That is very simple - majority (about 99%) of muslims are just ordinary people whose want to live like everyone else: in peace, security and raise their children to be good believers.

Seems your aim in this forum is just tell about your own prejudices. No need to read kind of any more. Not the first or the last of kind of member here. I don´t see any way how kind of hate posting would benefit even understanding each others from other religions. The first person that reminds me is some Terry Jones.

Have a nice day to you and goodbye to ignore bin...
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RedGuard
12-23-2013, 01:28 PM
This is going to be my last post in this thread as I don't want to engage in a nonsensical discussion that may result in me being evicted from this forum

First - the only objective way to measure the growth of a religion are population censuses. What Muslims usually do is not bringing forth data but telling stories of converts. This is not a good way to prove how fast Islam is growing - due to reporting bias.

Second - I do realize that most Muslims are peaceful, tolerant people but do they really follow the teachings of Muhammad? Would it be rational to call National Socialism a peaceful ideology just because the vast majority of Germans never harmed anyone?
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Muhammad
12-23-2013, 01:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by RedGuard
Second - I do realize that most Muslims are peaceful, tolerant people but do they really follow the teachings of Muhammad? Would it be rational to call National Socialism a peaceful ideology just because the vast majority of Germans never harmed anyone?
It is best you educate yourself on the teachings of Islam before drawing shallow conclusions and passing them off as fact.

I am closing this thread as it doesn't seem to be a discussion about anything productive.
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